Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

ateixeira

I own a Miata and learned quickly to get a crew cut. I'm due now, actually. Buzz cut down to a "2", please, Mr. Barber.

-juice

mtngal

and I drive a Wrangler...

ateixeira

A good hat, maybe?

I use a beret because hats with long brims can blow off!

-juice

mtngal

I just let my hair blow in the wind. I do have short hair - otherwise it would be in a pony tail. This is a case where guys have it better than gals.

ateixeira

Yep, my wife has really long hair and it's always a frizzy mess when we take the Miata, even with a hat.

-juice

fresca1

Hi,

What, if any, is the difference between the AWD system on the Santa Fes and the Subarus? The Subaru salesman says they use a "patented" AWD system with "fluid filled" differential distribution and a salesman at Hyundai told me the Santa Fe uses the same system but described it as "all the time AWD with a constant 60% - 40% split of power distribution between the front and rear wheels with no adaptation for changing conditions. Then a Suzuki salesman told me the Santa Fe wouldn't be a good vehicle for me because it has one front wheel with 60% of the power and the opposite rear wheel with 40% of the power and that there is no adaptation of that for actual conditions (as in the Suburu) and it can't be "forced" into a better configuration by shifting into 4WD Low like the Suzuki X-L. I have read all sorts of things on the internet about how AWD, 4WD and 2WD work and thought I understood it, but I can't find any of the particulars above. Does anyone have the real scoop on this or know where I can click to find it? I don't want to go off roading, but I do live in northern Vermont where for 6 months of the year I am driving on uplowed roads through mud, snow and ice. I need good traction as well as the ability to power through and around snow drifts ocassionally. Anyone driving the Santa Fe in similar conditions? Is the AWD Santa Fe a good choice for me? Thank you very much!

ateixeira

I think both salesman are wrong.

The manual tranny Subaru uses a Viscous Coupling center differential as its AWD system, same as all Santa Fes. The Santa Fe does indeed adjust for changing conditions, both do. Subaru defaults to 50/50, that's the main difference.

Automatic Subies have a different AWD system, but still acts full-time. What the salesman probably meant was that this AWD is proactive, as opposed to the reactive nature of a VC. It does, IMO, carry a slight advantage.

Subarus have an optional rear limited-slip differential. Hyundais offer that, too, or a traction control option.

Neither has a low range, which is fine if you just want to get around safely in snow and rain, and maybe try some light trails. Ground clearance is probably a bigger issue than traction, which both will offer plenty of.

Vermont, eh? The capital of Subaru-dom. Truly, it's the state where Subaru has its biggest market share, at a whopping 6%. It's just 0.4% in the snow belt, for comparison. When in Rome...

I think either will be fine for your needs. Subaru will sell you a Yakima ski rack that they resell with their name on it. Nice thing is you can equip it and roll the cost into your financing.

Hyundai has that solid warranty and just got uprated to "better than average" in reliability, same as the Forester.

Good luck shopping.

-juice

anonymous02

I am always amazed at the number of Subarus and old Toyota pickups, both all rusted out, the pickups usually having wood beds.

ateixeira

Those were from the pre-galvanized steel days, probably before 1990, when the Legacy arrived.

I have the new CR Buyer's Guide for 2003, and in the Paint/Trim/Rust category every Subaru since 1994 scores average or better, most much better.

So for a decade now they've been good.

-juice

anonymous02

They are pretty much all rusted out.

The stones in the mud chip the paint and zinc and steel down to the core, and then the salt water gets in.

ateixeira

Well, you gotta naval jelly, clean, and touch-up paint any scratches, because any zinc coating comes off with the paint.

But newer Subies have cladding on their lower half. The Forester doesn't have any exposed metal below the top of the wheel arches, pretty much, so stone chips won't do any harm besides aesthetic.

You can get factory flares for more protection, too (I have them). The unpainted lower cladding the 1998-2002 L and the 2003 X models are great - like teflon. Perfect for snow country.

They use salt here in DC too. I hate it. Cars get all white, the stuff really cakes on. I remember in New Mexico they'd just throw down sand, which is much better IMO.

-juice

stever

Most sand, in my experience anyway, is "treated" with salt (or similar) to keep it from freezing together and clumping so it'll spread from the trucks. May not help if they switch to "sand" there.

Steve, Host

ateixeira

I think it's so cold in Taos that they didn't even bother trying to melt the snow. That's what someone told me, any how.

We don't get much snow here, so when we do, the drivers lack any real experience and it would be comical were it not so dangerous.

-juice

stever

I don't think that matters either :-). First snow in Anchorage and everyone's in the ditch.

btw, don't forget the chat tonight. Everyone welcome, even if you don't drive a Subaru. The link is on the left side bar and the main Town Hall page.

Steve, Host

ateixeira

Yeah, I 2nd that, all are welcome.

We usually end up talking about food!

Last week talk like Yoda, we did. ;-)

-juice

fresca1

Thank you for that very informative explanation; it really is helpful to me. Yes, there are TONS of Subarus in Vermont. They just seem to go and go and go -- and this place is rough going for any car with the severe weather, the road salt and the endless road ruts. All my neighbors have Subarus and the parking lots are jammed full of them -- especially here in the north. That's why I want to get a Hyundai Santa Fe. Once I get into town, I want to be able to find my own car to get home!

paisan

I thought it was FWD til slippage occured? Anyone know the default torque split on it?

-mike

baggs32

Snow + sand + hills = Sled riding in a very large, heavy, and expensive sled.

Snow + salt + hills = Wet roads.

I'll take the caked on white stuff any day.

"I thought it was FWD til slippage occured? Anyone know the default torque split on it?"

The Santa Fe is 60% front/40% rear by default.

Here's where I found that:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/2001-03-16-santa-fe.htm

paisan

Could you give us something more technical than USAtoday.com? I mean c'mon something hard core!

-mike

p0926

You gotta love Vermont. Anywhere else in the US and people who buy Subarus are guaranteed to have a vehicle that stands out in a crowd but in Vermont it's the exact opposite! :-)

-Frank P.

paisan

My buddy counted 105 subies w/in the first hour into our trip through VT.

-mike

baggs32

"Could you give us something more technical than USAtoday.com? I mean c'mon something hard core!"

I tried paisan. No one else really makes mention of the numbers but them. Not even their own web site.

paisan

bummer

stever

4WDonline.com

Tirekicking Today

Both say it's a 60/40 split - usual disclaimers.

Steve, Host

p0926

"My buddy counted 105 subies w/in the first hour into our trip through VT."

If you were driving, I'm not surprised. At the speed you drive, you should pretty much be able to cross the entire state in an hour! :-)

-Frank P.

paisan

baggs32

Tirekicking Today?

Steve, it's time to start getting out a little more!

stever

lol, you may be correct Baggs!

Come'on snow....

Steve, Host

baggs32

The snow is coming Steve. We had our first fall last night. Just a dusting, which is gone now, but it's definitely that time again.

ateixeira

SF's AWD is full time and uses a VC similar to Subaru's. If you want to stand out, they do, sort of.

There are plenty of Subies in CT, too, in fact the farther north, the higher their concentration.

We went to CT for Turkey Day and got 6" of snow, it was great. First snow for our Legacy (the Forester has seen plenty). Also got sleet on the way back in Jersey.

My brother-in-law's Prelude got stuck in his front yard. We were able to drive right around him. Gotta love AWD.

-juice

jmatero

I've read a number of studies that indicate a good traction control system is as good as...and in some cases better than... AWD in the rain/snow as individual wheels can be slowed if they spin. Jaguar and Mercedes both published pretty extensive studies on the subject.

I'll tell you tomorrow morning when I try driving into work in my new FWD 5-speed view with ABS/Traction control.

ateixeira

But anything Jag or Benz publishes will have a clear-cut bias towards whatever they use.

It's funny to see Jag making AWD standard on the X-Type, and Benz adversiting it's 4Matic heavily no that snow season is arriving.

Volvo hosted a Fire & Ice event, and I got to drive an S60 FWD TC and an S60 AWD back-to-back. They had a tarp with soapy water to simulate ice. The FWD model hopelessly watched the brakes battle the engine as is made slow, painful progress.

The AWD model just went. Got through in less than half the time with far less drama.

It's funny but it was almost as if Volvo was telling you to buy a Subaru. ;-)

I'd pick AWD any day. Plus factor in better weight balance, FWD models are front-heavy, and you end up with better braking.

-juice

vin_weasel

I'll take AWD vs Traction control any day.

anonymous02

AWD is the way to go! (WTG)

paisan

The plates on the top car used to be on the bottom one before it was sold. I like AWD

-mike

p0926

Let's see... a good AWD system directs power to the wheels that have traction versus the TC approach of applying the brakes to the wheels that don't have traction. So which one is more likely to get you moving and which is better in preventing you from getting stuck? AWD wins hands down.

-Frank P.

paisan

sbcooke "Winter/Adverse Weather Driving Discussion" Dec 5, 2002 8:52am

Hopefully that link works. It's about a guy in PA with a VW Jetta w/TC and how he couldn't make it up a hill! The topic is "winter driving"

-mike

vin_weasel

Seeing pics like that make me miss my first car, a '79 LeBaron with a 360 and big snow tires on the back. Not as good as AWD but a heck of a lot of fun at 16.

mtngal

You are making it harder for me to be patient about replacing that 2WD Taco of mine... If the TD works through the brakes, then it wouldn't help me if I am stuck in my driveway, parked on ice (something I have been more than once with the 2WD Taco).

ateixeira

Lovin' the snow today, about 6".

Driving right by all the FWD cars spinning their tires climbing hills. The weight transfers to the back axle and it's worse than RWD.

-juice

baggs32

About 6 or 7 inches here too.

My favorite one was the woman stuck on a long semi-steep hill in her MB CLK something or other (the sporty little coupe,). I watched her back up onto the sidewalk from my rear view mirror as I sat at the top of the hill waiting for the light to turn green. I don't know how she though big flat sports car tires were going to get up a large hill covered with about 3-4 inches of snow, slush, and ice.

anonymous02

http://webcambiglook.com/ma.html

jimbob17

We got snow powder here in NE PA.
I could have gone the rest of my life without snow but I was interested in how the Forester X 03 would do. By the way I like to be cautious in the white stuff so I don't push it.
In the morning it was an inch or two and real slippery. The X did great although I could feel it slip a little until it grabbed. When I went home it was nine inches mostly plowed but still very slippery. The AWD and ABS were used and I was satisfied with the performance. Like I have seen on the Subaru posts many time tires make the difference but the Yokahammas were good.

steve281

I wonder how you feel they stack up. True Forester is rated the best in the group, however,
crash tests clearly come with the caveat that cars are individually tested against their own weight- I'm assuming this is an individual weight equal to the car, not a general weight for the category. Furthermore, there are several extended studies by the highway safety with graphs indicating that within each group- cars, pickups, and SUVs, the lightest cars within the group have far more injuries. Therefore, I wonder how the three respective cars safety is when you include their crash tests in conjuncion with the fact that Forester weights about 3100lbs
(I get some variation with the 2003 weight), and the other two are closer to 3800 or 3900. I would like to then factor avoidance as well.
Go for it fellas, your knowledge has enormously impressed me
thanks
Steve

nippononly

always downplay the importance of low weight in collision avoidance, it seems to me. Lower weight can also be helpful in maneuverability, especially in low-traction situations.

The almost-two-ton vehicles would be at a disadvantage in many types of situations. I don't believe all the electronic gadgetry can compensate entirely for the abilities of a much lighter vehicle with a viscous coupling in the center.

When I am out in the snow, I am always scared of the big SUVs you see in the mountains come snow time - they are often driven by people who rely much too heavily on that little "VSC/4WD" badge on the dash, and who do not compensate in their driving habits for the reduced traction under-tire.

scape2

Had an interesting conversation with a person who owns an SUV in this class that is truck base frame. We started to compare SUV's in this class. I asked this person how often they "offroad" and get full use of this offroad ability. He said they mainly use access roads and don't really offroad at all! Basically use it to skii...
This just proved to me once again that the commercials that are shoved down our throats are pure image... when concering "offroad ability"..
Maybe we should start a room that is "truck base frame vs car frame"??

nippononly

4Runner is truck-based, and I use it to go offroad regularly, so not all the hype is just hype.

I was reading some SUV reviews today, and the terms they used were "traditional" and "car-based", to distinguish the body-on-frame 4LO's from the unibody AWDers.

IMHO, safe snow driving is more than 50% determined by driver behavior, and way less by 4WD sophistication and electronic aids.

mtngal

And don't forget that part-time 4x4 systems don't help when the roads are mixed dry, wet, icy and snowy. I find it hard to judge by appearance alone just how much slip there is, and find myself constantly shifting in and out of 4Hi (and lifting/lowering the lever gets old quickly) or just giving up and leaving it in 2WD. One of the main reasons I'm looking at the AWD Subies...

nippononly

mine in 4HI all the time. I can see that it is definitely an improvement for the "traditional SUVs" for them to have the electronic traction control, and stability control too, because full-time 4WD is not as good as AWD for maintaining traction in the snow.

Problem is, come summer, the low clearance of the outback et al is not enough to get along the forest service tracks and even off the road in places I like to go in the mountains. Short of having about 4 vehicles, I have to go with the truck.

I would LOVE it if Subie would make a super-Forester with about 10 inches of ground clearance and bigger tires. That would be the last SUV (mini-ute) I would buy. (one extra wish: put the H-6 in it and make it $30K or less, please! Gee, I don't want everything, do I??!!)

paisan

We started a discussion on here of "True SUVs with Low range and AWD for 23->27K" or some faximile thereof. Basically the only 3 we can find in the class are Liberty, Axiom, Montero Sport and Sorento. All are RWD Based, Offroadable, Affordable, and 2/3 of them have Frames.

-mike