It's definitely a looker. I've seen a photo of the interior though and it's completely GM, blech. I wonder who designs their interiors?
I'm assuming those are base prices, so optioned out it should be a couple thou more. With those prices they'll never get a foothold in the compact sport ute market.
You can probably say the same for a loaded Tribute ES now. I've seen those as high as $27,000. Real world puts them at about $23,500 (the price of my ES Tribute 3 years ago) or lower once you include incentives.
juice - I'm still shopping, though not too hard at the moment. Every time I think I'm in a position to dump the Taco something comes up and I'm back to being stuck with a vehicle I don't like and can't afford to get rid of. I've been in this position for 3 years - about a month after I bought it! By spring I should have caught up from some unexpected bills from this summer and (keeping my fingers crossed) even be right side up on the Taco's note.
Originally I thought the Element was only one step above the Aztek, but then a neighbor showed me the interior. I loved it! While I'm still not crazy about the exterior, I like it much better than the Scion, which doesn't have much ground clearance and no AWD (a requirement for me).
I do wish Ford would come out with the hybrid Escape soon - I'd definitely look at it, though I think I would be more temped by the diesel Liberty (assuming it will get good mileage and will be available in California) because it isn't such new technology.
I haven't driven the Vue Redline yet. I see a bunch of Vues around this area, so they seem to be popular. When they first came out I test drove one and it drove me crazy - I didn't like the way the windshield attached to the body, it created a blind spot I'm not used to.
I don't have that problem with the Subies, so they stay on my list.
It is supposed to be out in 2004, according to Edmunds. I didn't even realize they were going to bring it over here until I saw it in the SUV newsletter. About all I've heard is that the news release says it could increase range by 30%. Its debut is at the Detroit Auto Show. That's all I know at this point - guess I'll have to start reading the Liberty board again.
Diesel at the stations closest to me have been running less than regular, rarely above (well, at least for the last year or so). My biggest question is whether it will be sold in California, since this year VW quit selling the Jetta here (new engine).
While a 30% increase in mileage might not mean much to some, it would be worth it for someone who puts as many miles as I do on a vehicle.
one big thing you have to remember about the hybrid is that safety may be comprised when the car is carrying around not just a gas tank, but a big acid battery as well, what happen if the car got rear-ended?, the maintenance of a battery may also be a cost factor that will sure surpass any fuel cost you saved. HOV lane access? that is only allowed in VA, and is slowly phased out....
Battery maintenance for a hybrid is a definite question for me. What type of warranty on the batteries will Ford put on the hybrid Escape? If it were to be time, not miles, I'm OK. However, if it is based on time OR miles, then forget it - 100,000 miles is less than 3 years for me.
The other big question on the diesel Liberty will be how much extra will the engine cost. It might not be cost effective, even with my miles.
John- I think you're being overly critical. I've not heard where a hybrid is less safe or requires more maintenance. Also, hybrids qualify for the HOV lane in GA.
I think the extra range would be very useful, actually.
HOV in MD for hybrids, too.
Toyota guarantees their batteries for 8 years/100k miles, that's longer than most original owners will keep any car.
I agree about battery cost, though at 9-10 years down the road for some it might be the 2nd or even 3rd owner's problem. Still, that might affect long-term resale value.
But the other benefits are appealing, the range, quietness, torque, etc. It's not just mileage.
Toyota will show a hybrid Highlander at Detroit. I'll watch that closely, as well as the Liberty diesel.
OK, sorry to be over critical, let us just dispute the fact, no HOV for MD drivers, but for VA only, this is a fact that I know, and I hope someone doesnt get misled into buying a prius to hop on the HOV only to get tickets and points. Please check with your locality.
"In order for a hybrid vehicle to use Virginia's HOV lanes, you must have Virginia clean special fuel license plates. This is the only way we have to monitor the use of these lanes when there is only one individual in a car. In order for Virginia to honor Maryland plates, we would need a reciprocal agreement between the two states, and no such agreement exists to our knowledge. "
In case anybody's interested (Subaru Crew members already know), I bought a Forester XT 5MT right before Christmas. All I can say is WOW! The XT is scary fast with loads of torque throughout the power band. I haven't had this much fun since I bought an AWD turbo Eagle Talon over 10 years ago. The amazing thing is that the mini-SUV Forester XT is over a second faster 0-60 than the sport-coupe Talon was and the XT is a heck of a lot more practical. For me it's the perfect combination of an all-purpose utility vehicle combined with the fun factor of a sports car. Kinda like how Mazda tried to portray the Tribute in TV ads when it first debuted (flock of Miatas surrounding a Tribute), except in the case of the Forester XT, it's the real deal. In fact, I find it almost impossible to end a drive and not have a big goofy smile on my face :-)
improved the turbo technology.. I owned a Subaru Loyal wagon, with a Turbo and it.... well died at about 50,000 miles... couldn't handle the forced induction.. Anyone else remember these??
Lets just hope Subaru improved the turbo technology
Well I'm certainly counting on it :-) Of course that was a previous generation of turbo technology. Since then Subaru, like all manufacturers, has made great strides in automotive engine design.
Subaru in the UK actually has higher quality scores than they do in the US (using the same source, JD Power). Actually, a LOT better in the UK.
I mention that because over there they've have turbos a lot longer than we have. I think they stopped selling them here in '94 or so, and brought them back in 2002 for the WRX.
So a decade later, yes, definitely, they are far more robust. Kinda like Ford's Duratec is a whole bunch better than the V6s from 80s Fords.
For any given engine displacement, there will be "small" turbochargers and "large" ones. The small ones have small, lightweight impellers that respond more quickly to changes in power demand (i.e. less turbo "lag"). They tend to be used when the goal is to achieve significant boost levels very quickly at moderate RPMs, but they would destroy themselves if they were called upon to make that same PSI boost at maximum RPMs. Therefore, they are regulated via a wastegate that dumps exhaust pressure around the turbo (bypassing it) beginning at (for example) 1/2 of max engine RPM. Because the engine's appetite for airflow continues rising with higher RPM, the measured boost pressure on these installations reaches a midrange maximum and then actually declines gradually as RPMs rise past the point where the wastegate begins opening. Turbos of this type are excellent for ordinary street driving, where the engine typically doesn't "live" at maximum RPM much of the time. Their maximum designed boost pressure might range between 7 and 12 PSI. The Forester XT turbo is of this type, meaning that it is on the "small" side for the 2.5 liter engine capacity, and its maximum boost pressure is around 11.6 PSI, which is reached at very moderate engine speeds - probably only about 2,500 to 3,000 RPM, well within the "sweet spot" for ordinary driving.
Racing engines and even those street engines designed to maximize top-end performance tend to use turbochargers that are larger in comparison to engine displacement, so that they can continue to produce an approximation of their maximum boost higher in the engine's RPM band - perhaps even all the way up to where peak HP is developed, without overspeeding and damaging the turbo. Because their impellers are relatively larger and heavier (compared to the engine displacement), they tend to not respond as immediately to changes in power demand, hence their turbo "lag" tends to be worse. Their wastegates open much later, at higher RPM, and they are of much less use for ordinary moderate-RPM driving, because they don't raise horsepower and torque until the engine is at considerably higher RPM. I would categorize the installation in the 2-liter Mitsubishi Evo in this category. This is a rather peaky engine that develops a great deal of power high in its rev range, but not so much off idle or at low RPMs. As I recall, the peak boost that the Evo's turbo can produce is around 19 PSI, compared to the XT's 11.6 or so.
Others who can explain this stuff better than I'm able are invited to chime in.
ridden a 1970s-era 2-stroke crotch-rocket motorcycle (like my old Kawasaki 500 Mach III), the power band is similar to that of a large turbo.
With my old Mach III, there was no power below 4000 rpm, once you hit 4 grand, you had better be leaning well over the handlebars and have it pointed in the right direction (with nothing in front of you!). The powerband was like a light switch—all or nothing.
My brother had (may still have?) a '72 Kawasaki 750 Mach III. The front tire didn't wear out too quickly since it was in the air quite often. As Bob said, you had to lean over the front and hang on!
the 500 was the Mach III. Two things both the Mach III and Mach IVs had in common with the Forester 2.5 XT, was they were very fast and they got about the same gas mileage.
a smaller 350cc Mach II 3-cylinder, which I also owned ('73 model). Now that was a real hoot to ride on back roads! It was much more fun than my '70 Mach III. It was much more like a small, nimble sports car vs a huge, bulky sports car.
ok so I am looking for the pros and cons of the two. I own four dogs and I take them everywhere. so space is at a premium with these two models. I can't afford the "big guys" though. I live off a dirt road off a dirt road. My driveway needs four wheel drive too. I don't do "off roading" really so I don't know if the liberty is just catching my eye becuase it looks cool. I have owned two ranger for the lasts 15 years. so what I am asking is... which one??
I am living in Vermont and I have a long driveway. You need 4wd to get up it. I have 5 dogs and the combined weight is 400lbs. I would carry them with me at all times. (well most of the time) I have a 2wd truck at this point and I need an upgrade. What I am asking is if the Liberty is my vehicle Is there anyone out there that has one in VT? any suggestions? I drive on dirt roads a lot too.
Have you considered a Subaru Forester? Every Subaru has AWD. Dirt roads would be a cakewalk. If your dogs will fit in a Liberty or Escape, they'll fit in a Forester.
Maria- You certainly don't need the Liberty for driving on dirt roads (if you didn't have any roads then that would be different!). I agree that the Liberty is eye catching and since you're use to the stiff truck ride that won't bother you. Edmunds' review sums it up nicely:
A thoroughly capable and comfortable compact SUV if you like to bash boulders, but if you're like most people and spend 99 percent of your time on the pavement, the Liberty lags behind its more carlike competitors.
Personally, I think you owe it to yourself to at least test-drive some of the competition :-)
If she's going to consider the Element, she might as well also consider the Pontiac Aztek. If you can stomach the look of one, you'd probably like the other.
Seriously - we get a ton of favorable comments from owners in the VT area. I took a ski trip up there to Smugglers Notch a few years ago. We did some "back roading" for a bit in snowy conditions. In our convoy, we had 13 vehicles - some die-hard Ford owners in the family - 3 converted to Subaru's after that trip. It handled beautifully. I had an Outback at the time that might not accomodate the dogs as well as the Forester, but I'd suggest you give one a whirl.
take a few dumps in the Element, you save time by only having to hose it out whenever time permits. The Liberty, Subaru, and Aztec can't match that feature.
I really do like the wash and wear interior of the Element because of muddy dogs (recently I sadly had to say goodbye to my Golden who was my constant hiking buddy for 10 years). The carpeting in the back of my Wrangler suffered from his muddy wet paws.
I also like the AWD system on the Subarus. It is different than what the Element has and I've always thought it would be better getting out of my driveway (though a neighbor of mine has no problem with their Element).
I love the Liberty and while I'm not planning on off-roading this vehicle (I have a 6 year old Wrangler for that) I'm still considering the Liberty. However, like all of the V6 SUVs, they are thirsty and I have a very long commute, so I'm going to look at the diesel when it comes out.
Since I can't afford to buy anything yet (I'm STILL on the wrong side of the note on my Tacoma, but getting closer!) I'll keep all 3 on my list of possibles.
But if your dogs take a few dumps in the Element, you save time by only having to hose it
I'm a dog lover and have shared my life with a number of them. Every one was sufficiently well trained that such a crude event would never happen while I was in the vehicle, and responsible owners would never leave animals in their vehicles unattended long enough for this 'problem' to occur. Ergo, if it happens, it's the owner's fault.
Comments
I'm assuming those are base prices, so optioned out it should be a couple thou more. With those prices they'll never get a foothold in the compact sport ute market.
-juice
More than that and you hurt resale value and hurt the nameplate.
-juice
Originally I thought the Element was only one step above the Aztek, but then a neighbor showed me the interior. I loved it! While I'm still not crazy about the exterior, I like it much better than the Scion, which doesn't have much ground clearance and no AWD (a requirement for me).
I do wish Ford would come out with the hybrid Escape soon - I'd definitely look at it, though I think I would be more temped by the diesel Liberty (assuming it will get good mileage and will be available in California) because it isn't such new technology.
I haven't driven the Vue Redline yet. I see a bunch of Vues around this area, so they seem to be popular. When they first came out I test drove one and it drove me crazy - I didn't like the way the windshield attached to the body, it created a blind spot I'm not used to.
I don't have that problem with the Subies, so they stay on my list.
When is the diesel coming on the Liberty? What engine?
Around here diesel costs about what premium does, so that negates the benefit of the better mileage. Well, I guess you get more range.
-juice
Diesel at the stations closest to me have been running less than regular, rarely above (well, at least for the last year or so). My biggest question is whether it will be sold in California, since this year VW quit selling the Jetta here (new engine).
While a 30% increase in mileage might not mean much to some, it would be worth it for someone who puts as many miles as I do on a vehicle.
The other big question on the diesel Liberty will be how much extra will the engine cost. It might not be cost effective, even with my miles.
-Frank P.
HOV in MD for hybrids, too.
Toyota guarantees their batteries for 8 years/100k miles, that's longer than most original owners will keep any car.
I agree about battery cost, though at 9-10 years down the road for some it might be the 2nd or even 3rd owner's problem. Still, that might affect long-term resale value.
But the other benefits are appealing, the range, quietness, torque, etc. It's not just mileage.
Toyota will show a hybrid Highlander at Detroit. I'll watch that closely, as well as the Liberty diesel.
-juice
"In order for a hybrid vehicle to use Virginia's HOV lanes, you must have Virginia clean special fuel license plates. This is the only way we have to monitor the use of these lanes when there is only one individual in a car. In order for Virginia to honor Maryland plates, we would need a reciprocal agreement between the two states, and no such agreement exists to our knowledge. "
In case anybody's interested (Subaru Crew members already know), I bought a Forester XT 5MT right before Christmas. All I can say is WOW! The XT is scary fast with loads of torque throughout the power band. I haven't had this much fun since I bought an AWD turbo Eagle Talon over 10 years ago. The amazing thing is that the mini-SUV Forester XT is over a second faster 0-60 than the sport-coupe Talon was and the XT is a heck of a lot more practical. For me it's the perfect combination of an all-purpose utility vehicle combined with the fun factor of a sports car. Kinda like how Mazda tried to portray the Tribute in TV ads when it first debuted (flock of Miatas surrounding a Tribute), except in the case of the Forester XT, it's the real deal. In fact, I find it almost impossible to end a drive and not have a big goofy smile on my face :-)
-Frank P.
Bob
Happy New Year Jack!
(and everyone else).
Steve, Host
(there was a little eggnog & Mr. Bean left in the cupboard).
Steve, Host
Well I'm certainly counting on it :-) Of course that was a previous generation of turbo technology. Since then Subaru, like all manufacturers, has made great strides in automotive engine design.
-Frank P.
I mention that because over there they've have turbos a lot longer than we have. I think they stopped selling them here in '94 or so, and brought them back in 2002 for the WRX.
So a decade later, yes, definitely, they are far more robust. Kinda like Ford's Duratec is a whole bunch better than the V6s from 80s Fords.
-juice
Anyone: What makes a "light-pressure" turbo? What is the cut-off that distinguishes it from a plain ol' turbo?
Advantages?
Disadvantages?
Thanks in advantage, er, advance.
-ss4
For any given engine displacement, there will be "small" turbochargers and "large" ones. The small ones have small, lightweight impellers that respond more quickly to changes in power demand (i.e. less turbo "lag"). They tend to be used when the goal is to achieve significant boost levels very quickly at moderate RPMs, but they would destroy themselves if they were called upon to make that same PSI boost at maximum RPMs. Therefore, they are regulated via a wastegate that dumps exhaust pressure around the turbo (bypassing it) beginning at (for example) 1/2 of max engine RPM. Because the engine's appetite for airflow continues rising with higher RPM, the measured boost pressure on these installations reaches a midrange maximum and then actually declines gradually as RPMs rise past the point where the wastegate begins opening. Turbos of this type are excellent for ordinary street driving, where the engine typically doesn't "live" at maximum RPM much of the time. Their maximum designed boost pressure might range between 7 and 12 PSI. The Forester XT turbo is of this type, meaning that it is on the "small" side for the 2.5 liter engine capacity, and its maximum boost pressure is around 11.6 PSI, which is reached at very moderate engine speeds - probably only about 2,500 to 3,000 RPM, well within the "sweet spot" for ordinary driving.
Racing engines and even those street engines designed to maximize top-end performance tend to use turbochargers that are larger in comparison to engine displacement, so that they can continue to produce an approximation of their maximum boost higher in the engine's RPM band - perhaps even all the way up to where peak HP is developed, without overspeeding and damaging the turbo. Because their impellers are relatively larger and heavier (compared to the engine displacement), they tend to not respond as immediately to changes in power demand, hence their turbo "lag" tends to be worse. Their wastegates open much later, at higher RPM, and they are of much less use for ordinary moderate-RPM driving, because they don't raise horsepower and torque until the engine is at considerably higher RPM. I would categorize the installation in the 2-liter Mitsubishi Evo in this category. This is a rather peaky engine that develops a great deal of power high in its rev range, but not so much off idle or at low RPMs. As I recall, the peak boost that the Evo's turbo can produce is around 19 PSI, compared to the XT's 11.6 or so.
Others who can explain this stuff better than I'm able are invited to chime in.
With my old Mach III, there was no power below 4000 rpm, once you hit 4 grand, you had better be leaning well over the handlebars and have it pointed in the right direction (with nothing in front of you!). The powerband was like a light switch—all or nothing.
Bob
DaveM
Bob
DaveM
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
Bob
Thank you.
-ss4
-mike
Bob
Maria- You certainly don't need the Liberty for driving on dirt roads (if you didn't have any roads then that would be different!). I agree that the Liberty is eye catching and since you're use to the stiff truck ride that won't bother you. Edmunds' review sums it up nicely:
A thoroughly capable and comfortable compact SUV if you like to bash boulders, but if you're like most people and spend 99 percent of your time on the pavement, the Liberty lags behind its more carlike competitors.
Personally, I think you owe it to yourself to at least test-drive some of the competition :-)
-Frank P.
Patti
Bob
I also like the AWD system on the Subarus. It is different than what the Element has and I've always thought it would be better getting out of my driveway (though a neighbor of mine has no problem with their Element).
I love the Liberty and while I'm not planning on off-roading this vehicle (I have a 6 year old Wrangler for that) I'm still considering the Liberty. However, like all of the V6 SUVs, they are thirsty and I have a very long commute, so I'm going to look at the diesel when it comes out.
Since I can't afford to buy anything yet (I'm STILL on the wrong side of the note on my Tacoma, but getting closer!) I'll keep all 3 on my list of possibles.
Bravo! You just zoomed to the top of the best-reply list.
I'm a dog lover and have shared my life with a number of them. Every one was sufficiently well trained that such a crude event would never happen while I was in the vehicle, and responsible owners would never leave animals in their vehicles unattended long enough for this 'problem' to occur. Ergo, if it happens, it's the owner's fault.