I would stay away from the Liberty.Go with the Subaru Toyota Matrix/Pontac Vibe just as muchbetter ride handleing and mileage.If your heart is set on a SUV buy anything but a Liberty.
Ok guys I have a forester(boyfriends) and they don't fit real well. No room for anything except the dogs and then it is a tight squeeze. I like the ford escape and the liberty becuase of the hight it gives me too. I am short The liberty has a little more room then the forester. The forester hasn't made it up my driveway a couple of times either so I need more ground clearence.
umm the elements are on a chart in my classroom and there sure is no way you would catch me floating around in a vehicle that looks like that. I don't care how economical or well adapted it is to the dogs.. that goes for the aztec too. yikes.
If a Forester doesn't have the clearance to make it your driveway, I can only draw two conclusions:
a. Maybe you really do need a Liberty
b. You must not have much in the way of a driveway :-)
However, I would be surprised if the Liberty gives you any more floor space for your dogs. I also don't understand the height argument. If the goal is to sit as high as possible why not get a Mac truck? Okay so maybe that's a little over the top but you get my point. Sure you may be able to see over a few more cars but there'll always be plenty of bigger vehicles. In the meantime, the higher you sit the tippier the vehicle is.
sure is no way you would catch me floating around in a vehicle that looks like that.
Yay, mtngal. You obviously can tell the difference between OK-looking and deliberately ugly-just-to-be-different. I'm not buying any car that looks like the builder ran out of paint, or like it's already endured 4-corner damage and all I could afford was primer.
ok so I have been in a real bad car accident in a subaru legacy wagon and it is a little more psychosematic then just room.I drive the Forester a lot but the hight of the seat and the angle of the pedals gives me a serious cramp in the foot and the back. I have a driveway that is actually classed as a road becuase of the length. I do plow it but it has a grade on it that allows us to get some serious speed on the tabogan.
Maria- The seat height is adjustable but if you've tried all the various combinations and can't get comfortable then definitely don't buy one.
Right or wrong, a bad experience can cause a negative association and buying another brand is certainly going to be more cost effective than therapy :-)
I'm sensing that you've really already made up your mind to get the Liberty so go ahead if it'll make you happy. The Liberty is a decent vehicle and you'll at least be using some of its off-road capability (unlike most buyers).
"The forester hasn't made it up my driveway a couple of times either so I need more ground clearence."
Then stay away from the Element, the Matrix, and the Vibe. None has the road clearance even of the Forester. The Liberty sounds OK for your needs--if you can handle the wretched gas mileage (the Escape is not much better in that regard).
And I thought my driveway was tough.
If you can deal with it, you might also look into the 05 Outback--it may have a tad more usable space (depends on how big these dogs are) than the Forester, and it's getting a lot more clearance.
Can I ever relate to you about your almost phobia after an accident! We were involved in an accident in the Wrangler when it was about 6 months old and at first we had a rented Cavalier. I could barely see over the dash as a passenger and I was a complete basket case. We ended up renting a Cherokee and that really helped.
Given your requirements, the Liberty does make lots of sense. I don't have any problems with pulling up or pushing down the lever as conditions demand, and actually like having the ability to lock the axles together.
Another thought is to go back to the pickup trucks. I happened to look at that new Ford F150 4x4 and loved it (this from a person who has only owned one Ford and hated it). Of course, it was way out of my price range, but it WAS nice.
I would recommend it over everything. One thing that I don't understand is the "wretched mileage" comments. I get 24 mpg on the highway and 19 overall combining town and highway. That includes towing a 20 ft bayliner. I have friends that have both CRV's and Elements and I routinely match them there. The Elements that are owned by my friends are always in the shop having the plastic body panels reattached.
As for quality, the Liberty is a big surprise. I have had one squeek in the front end over the last 2 years and that is the result of scaring my wife in 3 feet of water.
colorado1974- The "wretched mileage" comments are directed at the 6-cylinder engine. If you're getting 19/24 mpg I'm assuming you have the 4-cylinder? If not, consider yourself extremely fortunate :-)
Liberty is overkill for your needs, but if that's what you want, go for it. Get a liner for the pups, for their damp paws mostly.
If the Forester didn't make it up, it probably had poor or worn tires.
Subaru has 1% market share nation wide, but 7% in Vermont. Those owners wouldn't keep buying Subies if they couldn't get around in the snow effectively.
Juice- Maria actually said the Forester didn't have the "ground clearance" to make it up her driveway (yeah I know, hard to understand how you could call it a driveway then). But if that's the case, she could be in the 1% of Liberty owners who actually make use of its capabilities :-)
The winner is the ELEMENT. Nothing else makes sense really. Subaru Forester: Ok but just a wagon and ugly. Hyundai Santa Fe: Ugly. Jeep Liberty horrible ride and very poor mpg! vs Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute: Too girly. Saturn Vue: Ok but a saturn. None of these has anywhere near the cargo space of the Element. Element has the best MPG, and is the only one that is a true original design. Only car i like better is the VW Touareg but that is about double the price.
If the Forester's not making it up the driveway (and even if the road clearance isn't the problem as Maria claimed), I don't think the Element is either.
The dog factor made me look seriously at the Element, but there were too many compromises, as Juice pointed out. As for the looks, it's fine.
BTW, I think I can work with "ugly," but what pray tell is "girly?"
ok so no one mentions the Escape. I Can't get the Element, or the Aztec because I just can't do that to myself. I'm not bashing the car I just couldn't drive down the road in one. I can't get over the looks thing, sorry. I am shallow on that one. ok so I drove the Liberty, loved it. But the gas milage is horrible. I am looking for a reliable, safe vehicle. I know the subaru might be the best for me but I don't like the fact that my feet cramp and my back screems after I have driven for over an hour. so subaru out. aztec and element out. Escape, Liberty, and CRV are in. any more helpful hints? still listening.
Yes I did have difficulty with the clearance of the subie. I like the fact that the new outback will be higher but, I don't sit in it well and and the back issue is paramount.
renegade said: OK, one more. Remember that the Jeep is a part time 4 wheel drive. Are you prepared to do the up/down on the transfer case constantly as needed? or do you just wanna drive? Selectrac (option) will make it's operation similar to all the other AWDs, but may not satisfy you
hmm I have never had 4wd so I drive like a grandma during poor weather. I want the 4wd for the driveway and the dirt roads I need to go down everday. In your opinion I shouldn't leave it in 4wd as I drive down the road? I should shift it on the fly when I think I need it?
If you have the part time 4wd system, you should be fine leaving in in 4wd as long as you are not on dry pavement. However, if you can come up with the bucks, I would go for the more expensive full time system if you do get the Liberty.
I drove a Liberty and liked it, but could not get over the fact that a vehicle that small is so heavy, resulting in relatively sluggish acceleration and increased fuel consumption. But I thought that overall it felt pretty solid.
Also, I do not know if I was doing something wrong but I could not get the seat to go flat when I put it down. I thought that not having a flat surface was less than optimal for my one dog. And if you leave the seat up, the space behind the seat is really pretty small.
In terms of ground clearance and your driveway, I am curious to know more about the issue. Is it big rocks? Deep snow? Although the Subaru is not a tall vehicle, for all practical purposes is has just as much clearance as any crossover due to good packaging of the drivetrain. At the same time it has a lower center of gravity, which is good for safety. But I think that if the Subaru will not work, no crossover SUV will work. Maybe you need someone to grade your driveway.
My wifes Liberty is a 2002 Limited with the V6. Quality has been incredible, off road manners are unmatched, on road manners are still very close to the Escape and CRV. I've found that the trip is very accurate.
The reason why the posted mileage is terrible is that the Liberty is treated differently than the Escape, RAV4 and CRV. Being an actual SUV instead of a tall car, the test include heavy (5000 lb) towing, off road coarses and such. In contrast, the car utilities are merely driven on the freeway and in suburbs. The difference in fuel economy is justified in the useage.
My father in law has an escape and has had 6 recalls already ranging from loose steering wheels to rewelding the rear suspension back into place.
Maria- If you're dead set against a Subaru (whatever your reasons) then the CR-V would be a good choice. Of course it'll have the same ground clearance issues but it's very reliable, has lots of room, gets good gas mileage and is relatively safe.
The reason why the posted mileage is terrible is that the Liberty is treated differently than the Escape, RAV4 and CRV. Being an actual SUV instead of a tall car, the test include heavy (5000 lb) towing, off road coarses and such. In contrast, the car utilities are merely driven on the freeway and in suburbs.
Colorado1974- Pardon my French but Baloney! Did the Jeep salesman tell you that? I assure you that the EPA doesn't go off-roading and numerous independent reviews have confirmed the Liberty's V-6 fuel economy is unimpressive (CR avg was 15 mpg). If you're getting 24 mpg you are extremely fortunate and should count your blessings.
none of you guys/gals even mentions the Extended Wrangler that is coming out. It is going to have a hard top available and you have to admit Wranglers are a beast that eats up dirt roads / driveways for breakfast. Or what about looking at a left-over (way left-over) Cherokee. Some of the Dealerships still have them floating around, or they will find one for you. Plus heard a rumor that DC is thinking about brining it back (again!)
You might want to check the kia sorento. Of all the formentioned vehicles i found it to be the most for the money and best looking (aside from the element). Check it out! You might want to give the element some time to grow on you. Cutting edge art ALWAYS scares the majority at first.
I'm surprised the Wrangler Unlimited came up on this board! My guess is that it will be even thirstier than the Liberty is - my Wrangler gets about 20 mpg all highway driving, so if you add the extra weight and size the Unlimited could be even thirstier.
I'd rather have the option of having a transfer case where I can lock the wheels when I need to. I have seen a number of stuck CRVs around here because the system didn't react soon enough (I guess). That's the advantage of the Subie system - it puts power to both axles all of the time. And yes, you can't drive on dry pavement with part time 4WD - does bad things to the drive train. And yes, it does take thought, but that's not such a bad thing - if the roads are that bad, I should be paying attention to what is going on.
I looked at the Escape when it first came out and wasn't all that impressed. I wanted a 5 speed and a V6, which the Escape didn't have.
This is a ground-up redesign, with a longer wheelbase, wider track, bigger body, and a whopping 8.7" of clearance.
I'm sure the seats are new, so try them out, they should start arriving in dealers in spring.
Liberty and Wrangler Unlimited won't get you the mileage you desire. They offer advantage to offset that, but if mileage is a sticking point, I don't think these will make the cut.
You could get a Forester and then add a 2" lift from Scorpion of Australia, that's about $400. You'd have 9.5" of clearance, which is about as good as you'll get before you dive into a full-fledged truck.
Or what about looking at a left-over (way left-over) Cherokee.
I once thought the Cherokee might be suitable for me. Compact dimensions, 4WD, etc. That was before I rode in one belonging to an acquaintance.
I've never been in such an uncomfortable, harsh-riding vehicle. It felt as if the axles were bolted directly to the frame. Even on normal roads, every piece of the vehicle sounded as if it was colliding with every adjacent piece. That was all it took to rule out the Cherokee.
Probably not much better gas mileage than the Liberty (maybe worse, with the supercharger) but I think most would agree it's nearly as off road capable as the Liberty. The fact that it's not a Nissan and not a DaimlerChrysler product also appeals to some people, me included.
Nothing is much worse than the libery MPG! It is geared for off roading and rides as such. Of all the above mentioned smaller suvs the libery is best off load, but you will sacrifice comfort and milage.
Idon't know how you figure milage ? Mine got 15/17 straight Hwy driveing no trailer and 3 passengers 55 mph good hwy. It got worse in winter driving sometimes down to12 mpg. Vermont maybe try a Toyota 4runner.
should have read "Yhe fact that it's a Nissan and not a DaimlerChrysler product". I was referring to the reliability difference between the makers, perceived or actual.
I'm ambivalent about the reliability of DaimlerChrysler. On the one hand, I've heard all the horror tales about previous Grand Cherokee models. On the other, I've been a happy owner of a Wrangler for 6 years. It has over 114,000 miles on the odometer and I plan on getting another 100,000 miles plus out of it. It hasn't been perfect, but then, the '88 Nissan Hardbody pickup wasn't perfect either, and I sold it after 11 years and 290,000 miles. The engine was still in great shape but I had just blown the auto tranny for the second time.
I have 2 complaints about the Xterra. First is the seating - it was too much like my Tacoma for my taste (my Taco is the most uncomfortable vehicle I've ever owned). Second is the gas mileage. As I recall (and I haven't looked at one since they came out with the supercharger) it seemed like the gas mileage vs. power was worse than the Liberty. Otherwise, I probably would consider it again.
I owned a Cherokee and was quite pleased with it (you get use to the harsh ride). It was a very reliable vehicle and only needed a couple of minor repairs to reach 130k miles. However, I recognize that my sampling of one is about as unscientific as you can get and therefore I defer to the commonly accepted view that Jeep reliability leaves something to be desired. I think it’s safe to say that their record is spotty and your chances of getting a lemon are significantly higher than the industry avg. So even with my positive experience, I'm not sure I'd buy another (the gambling phrase "quit while you're ahead" comes to mind). Things may be turning around though, I see CR lists the Liberty's reliability as avg and recommends it.
owned a Cherokee and was quite pleased with it (you get use to the harsh ride).
I'm not into masochism. If I'd spent much time in that particular Cherokee, my vertebrae would have become compressed. It rode worse than my brother's MGTC.
I drove a Grand Cherokee Columbia Edition recently, Quadra Trac II was whining the whole time, and worse, they said that was normal. Supposely when it warms up that stops, but not during my 5-6 mile test drive.
No SUV has ever disappointed me so much.
I actually liked the Liberty better, even though the 4WD is not truly full-time.
What's their powertrain warranty now? I'd want all that stuff covered for the entire time I owned it, if I did get one.
If the liberty is what you like try one out . Try to load it like you normaly would and drive your local roads.Fold rear seats down .Take it for a real world test drive not the dealer's around the block.If it fits your needs and you can put up with the lousy mileage buy it from the dealer were you will get the best service.
Comments
a. Maybe you really do need a Liberty
b. You must not have much in the way of a driveway :-)
However, I would be surprised if the Liberty gives you any more floor space for your dogs. I also don't understand the height argument. If the goal is to sit as high as possible why not get a Mac truck? Okay so maybe that's a little over the top but you get my point. Sure you may be able to see over a few more cars but there'll always be plenty of bigger vehicles. In the meantime, the higher you sit the tippier the vehicle is.
-Frank P.
Yay, mtngal. You obviously can tell the difference between OK-looking and deliberately ugly-just-to-be-different. I'm not buying any car that looks like the builder ran out of paint, or like it's already endured 4-corner damage and all I could afford was primer.
I have a driveway that is actually classed as a road becuase of the length. I do plow it but it has a grade on it that allows us to get some serious speed on the tabogan.
Right or wrong, a bad experience can cause a negative association and buying another brand is certainly going to be more cost effective than therapy :-)
I'm sensing that you've really already made up your mind to get the Liberty so go ahead if it'll make you happy. The Liberty is a decent vehicle and you'll at least be using some of its off-road capability (unlike most buyers).
-Frank P.
Then stay away from the Element, the Matrix, and the Vibe. None has the road clearance even of the Forester. The Liberty sounds OK for your needs--if you can handle the wretched gas mileage (the Escape is not much better in that regard).
And I thought my driveway was tough.
If you can deal with it, you might also look into the 05 Outback--it may have a tad more usable space (depends on how big these dogs are) than the Forester, and it's getting a lot more clearance.
Given your requirements, the Liberty does make lots of sense. I don't have any problems with pulling up or pushing down the lever as conditions demand, and actually like having the ability to lock the axles together.
Another thought is to go back to the pickup trucks. I happened to look at that new Ford F150 4x4 and loved it (this from a person who has only owned one Ford and hated it). Of course, it was way out of my price range, but it WAS nice.
As for quality, the Liberty is a big surprise. I have had one squeek in the front end over the last 2 years and that is the result of scaring my wife in 3 feet of water.
-Frank P.
If the Forester didn't make it up, it probably had poor or worn tires.
Subaru has 1% market share nation wide, but 7% in Vermont. Those owners wouldn't keep buying Subies if they couldn't get around in the snow effectively.
-juice (got 6" of snow today and life is good!)
-Frank P.
Bob
Perhaps her needs are extreme. The next Outback will have 8.7" of clearance, BTW, 1.2" more than the Forester.
-juice
-Frank P.
Price makes is a strong value if it meets your needs, though. FWIW I really like the styling. Different can be cool.
-juice
Bob
For a family with 3 kids it simply cannot do the job.
-juice
The dog factor made me look seriously at the Element, but there were too many compromises, as Juice pointed out. As for the looks, it's fine.
BTW, I think I can work with "ugly," but what pray tell is "girly?"
Zman
hmm I have never had 4wd so I drive like a grandma during poor weather. I want the 4wd for the driveway and the dirt roads I need to go down everday. In your opinion I shouldn't leave it in 4wd as I drive down the road? I should shift it on the fly when I think I need it?
I drove a Liberty and liked it, but could not get over the fact that a vehicle that small is so heavy, resulting in relatively sluggish acceleration and increased fuel consumption. But I thought that overall it felt pretty solid.
Also, I do not know if I was doing something wrong but I could not get the seat to go flat when I put it down. I thought that not having a flat surface was less than optimal for my one dog. And if you leave the seat up, the space behind the seat is really pretty small.
In terms of ground clearance and your driveway, I am curious to know more about the issue. Is it big rocks? Deep snow? Although the Subaru is not a tall vehicle, for all practical purposes is has just as much clearance as any crossover due to good packaging of the drivetrain. At the same time it has a lower center of gravity, which is good for safety. But I think that if the Subaru will not work, no crossover SUV will work. Maybe you need someone to grade your driveway.
Well, the '05 Outback is a complete redesign so maybe you don't want to rule out the seats just yet. It should be at the dealer early June '04.
DaveM
tidester, host
The reason why the posted mileage is terrible is that the Liberty is treated differently than the Escape, RAV4 and CRV. Being an actual SUV instead of a tall car, the test include heavy (5000 lb) towing, off road coarses and such. In contrast, the car utilities are merely driven on the freeway and in suburbs. The difference in fuel economy is justified in the useage.
My father in law has an escape and has had 6 recalls already ranging from loose steering wheels to rewelding the rear suspension back into place.
It definitely takes some major recalibration to grasp that comparison.
-Frank P.
Colorado1974- Pardon my French but Baloney! Did the Jeep salesman tell you that? I assure you that the EPA doesn't go off-roading and numerous independent reviews have confirmed the Liberty's V-6 fuel economy is unimpressive (CR avg was 15 mpg). If you're getting 24 mpg you are extremely fortunate and should count your blessings.
-Frank P.
Odie
I'd rather have the option of having a transfer case where I can lock the wheels when I need to. I have seen a number of stuck CRVs around here because the system didn't react soon enough (I guess). That's the advantage of the Subie system - it puts power to both axles all of the time. And yes, you can't drive on dry pavement with part time 4WD - does bad things to the drive train. And yes, it does take thought, but that's not such a bad thing - if the roads are that bad, I should be paying attention to what is going on.
I looked at the Escape when it first came out and wasn't all that impressed. I wanted a 5 speed and a V6, which the Escape didn't have.
Perhaps but the Element is not the topic here. Please take it elsewhere.
tidester, host
I'm sure the seats are new, so try them out, they should start arriving in dealers in spring.
Liberty and Wrangler Unlimited won't get you the mileage you desire. They offer advantage to offset that, but if mileage is a sticking point, I don't think these will make the cut.
You could get a Forester and then add a 2" lift from Scorpion of Australia, that's about $400. You'd have 9.5" of clearance, which is about as good as you'll get before you dive into a full-fledged truck.
-juice
I once thought the Cherokee might be suitable for me. Compact dimensions, 4WD, etc. That was before I rode in one belonging to an acquaintance.
I've never been in such an uncomfortable, harsh-riding vehicle. It felt as if the axles were bolted directly to the frame. Even on normal roads, every piece of the vehicle sounded as if it was colliding with every adjacent piece. That was all it took to rule out the Cherokee.
-Jason
-Jason
I have 2 complaints about the Xterra. First is the seating - it was too much like my Tacoma for my taste (my Taco is the most uncomfortable vehicle I've ever owned). Second is the gas mileage. As I recall (and I haven't looked at one since they came out with the supercharger) it seemed like the gas mileage vs. power was worse than the Liberty. Otherwise, I probably would consider it again.
-Frank P.
I'm not into masochism. If I'd spent much time in that particular Cherokee, my vertebrae would have become compressed. It rode worse than my brother's MGTC.
No SUV has ever disappointed me so much.
I actually liked the Liberty better, even though the 4WD is not truly full-time.
What's their powertrain warranty now? I'd want all that stuff covered for the entire time I owned it, if I did get one.
-juice