Snow/Ice winter tires

adp3

but I only have winter when I WANT winter

the Costco approach sounds good - a neighborhood tire place might do something similar - I'll talk to my local place - maybe they'll even store them for me

:-)

dudleyr

Call the CHP and ask them if 4 severe service snow tires will suffice. They are certainly better than AWD with 4 all seasons (especially on the way down the mountain).

geoffdgti

adp3 asks:
so it appears, provided you can get a decent set of rims cheap, is....how the hell do you store an extra set of tires in these puny garages they build for you in the SF Bay Area?!!

You just have to sacrifice some space in the wine cellar. ;-) 4 tires stacked in the corner of the garage really doesn't take all that much floor space.

If you're only going up to Tahoe once a month, chains makes the most sense. You likely won't see snow and chain restrictions more than a couple of times per winter and there are people you can pay at the chain-up pullouts to install them for you. In the rest of the world, we're faced with getting out and crawling around in the muck to mount chains instead of passing around the Grey Poupon.

hpulley4

All that mounting, unmounting is tough on the tires and rebalancing will leave unsightly marks as they add and remove balancing weights. How can it be easier to store the tires when the wheels fit effectively inside the tires??? I don't understand that argument. It is lighter to carry tires alone but for the twice a year that you get them switched, it really is easier with an extra set of wheels along with the tires.

My dealer has a tire storage facility too, though I didn't want to ask how much they charge. Maybe I'll ask when I put my summers on soon (glad I haven't changed back to them yet as we have an ice/snow storm coming today and tomorrow!).

robr2

"do you store an extra set of tires in these puny garages they build for you in the SF Bay Area?!!"

I'm in Boston - most houses around here don't have garages. It's that frugal Yankee mentality. I store my tires in the basement - betcha ain't got one of those!!

I built a rack out of 2x4's and 1X planks that takes up about 16 square feet.

There is one upscale vulcanized automotive rotational device purveyor here that will store your off season set as long as you bought them there. Of course they wanted $1300 for the same tires and steel rims I paid $600 for at Tirerack.

adp3

hey, geoff - have I said that I love visiting Portsmouth? Anyone who hasn't been there should make a visit. Drop some coin into the local economy. Cool place.

robr2

"You can keep your Guldens (damned proletariat)"

We proleteriat prefer French's but I know that's not a nice word anymore.

Portsmouth is cool. Kind of a chic place to live and hangout if you can't afford Boston. Even Portland is going upscale.

Keeping on topic - why is there so much more action in this topic now that winter is over???

geoffdgti

robr2 writes:
Portsmouth is cool. Kind of a chic place to live and hangout if you can't afford Boston.

Please check your facts on real estate prices. Portsmouth is the least affordable Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area outside of California.

Going back on-topic, Portsmouth does have a Nokian dealer. They tried really hard to talk me into NRWs instead of Hakka Qs. If you don't take your car skiing every weekend, their advice is probably correct. I was torn between the Blizzak, the Michelin Arctic Alpin, and the Hakka Q. They're all superb friction tires with lots of siping (little channels to give the water somewhere to go) for ice performance. The reputation for poor wear turned me away from the Blizzak. I probably would have been just as happy with the Arctic Alpin.

adp3

no wonder I like Portsmouth - very little riff raff

:-)

geoffdgti

no wonder I like Portsmouth - very little riff raff

This riff raff has to get off to work. The Nokians have 3" of new snow to play with this morning. The drive to Vermont tonight will be into 18" of new snow. I'm glad I blew off swapping to summer tires this week.

robr2

Statistics can be read in many ways. That chart indicates the affordability index of homes in a metro area based on the median incomes of the residents of that metro area. It says nothing about the cost of housing itself. The interpretation you stated would indicate that the housing in the Lowell and Lawrence, MA metro areas are more expensive than in Boston metro. I would challenge that. In reality, housing in those areas cost more in terms of the percentage of median income of the residents.

I know that the Portsmouth area is getting expensive, but I know plenty of folks who have moved to that area and commute to metro Boston because they can't afford to live in this area.

Back on topic - I've never been able to find Nokians outside of Saab or Volvo dealers in Boston. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

blockislandguy

Re: Nokian dealer development: I'm seeing a classified ad in a buff book (Automobile?) for a full line Nokian dealer. I'll check out the prices and report back.

Housing affordability index: the index is aptly named: it measures how affordable the housing is for the people who live in the area. Sure, I guess if you were to move New York City to Lawrence, Ma the homes would seem to be less costly. But they would not any more affordable to the people who actually live in the area than the price of homes in New York are affordable to the people who now live in New York.

Net/net: Portsmouth is a great town if you are buying housing with dollars earned in the metro Boston economy and not buying housing with dollars earned, say, working at the Kittery Malls.

silvernubira

I recently had a snow tire changeover at Sam's Club. This was the second changeover I had. They damaged two of four tires due to sloppy work and they did not even tell me. When I was unloading the tires, I noticed wires were sticking out. When I went back and told them about the damage they offered to pro-rate the tires, the problem was they had no idea what the original tread depth was. So first they come up with 70% refund then they lowered it 64%. When I told them these tires had about 4000 miles on them and were driven only when it snowed, they just ignored me. When I asked to talk to the manager, he just bullied me (he was in late 20's, obviously he did not reach to a level of maturity to deal effectively with such situations. However, Sam's Club must be saving lots of money by employing such "managers"). I asked them to pro-rate the installion fee since it was not my fault that the tires were damaged. Their response was something along the lines "screw you!" but of course they did not use those words. At the end, I got back $56 for the tires I paid $106. I used these tires for two winters and about 4000 miles. I was expecting to use them at least another 8 to 10 winters and at least another 20,000 miles. By the way, the original tires that came with this car (Michelin MXLs) lasted 162,000 miles.

Well, I guess I won't be shopping at Sam's Club anymore and hopefully at BJ's Club they treat customers better(?!)

robr2

At BJ's your luck is with the tech. I dropped my snow tires off to be rebalanced. When I picked them up, I noticed that they did not remove the 2 year old weights - just added more. It was late, I had my kids, and it was already snowing so I didn't moan. But since it's a lifetime balance, they're going back this summer to be done right.

OTOH, there was at least one tech there using a hand torque wrench for final adjustments. At NTB I have to hand them mine as opposed to that torque stick they use. I have a hard time trusting those.

geoffdgti

Just in time for summer, Nokian has put up their new web site.

For some reason, they don't have size data on the Hakka SUV yet and the Hakka SUV doesn't get referenced in their tire selector guide.

http://www.nokiantires.com

rexthrasher

Get seperate rims for your snows. You need four snows, their relatively softer rubber compound and more flexible sidewalls have much more "squirm" than summer tires and mixing types will cause uneven dry road handling. At $15 each tire for remounting and balancing twice a year you pay for the rims in savings and convenience, plus you can keep track of each tires orientation for rotating them and they don't get damaged by all that stretching. Dunlop makes great snows at a good price. Dunlops in general are my favorite. Their old graspics really pulled in snow and handled nice at high speeds but their new "multicell" rubber or whatever the snow/ice tires are called compund may be squirmier. You probably wouldn't notice the squirm in a Camry's soft suspension but if you have a sporty car w/ gas shocks and bigger stabilizer bars go for the highest available speed rating, it's the stiffer sidewall you need. The original Blizzaks were much too squirmy, they offer more choices now. Michelin artic alpins are good, and they look sharp on big cars, they have a flat square edged shape like a slick. Dunlop and Pirelli make H-speed snows for BMW's. If you want to go best in deep snow get a narrower tread witdth, one step down from your summer tire size like a 185 instead of a 195. Generally, the smallest rim diameter that will clear your brake calipers and highest sidewall profile provides better snow handling, forget those 17 rims you see on Civics.

pluto5

Don't forget Kumho, they got one of the best ratings in CR for winter tires and their quality is equal to the majors. As far as putting them on rims, they are rather heavy and it may be more convenient for some people to store them unmounted. Wal-Mart and Costco both mount carry in tires, and Wal-Mart offers inexpensive mounting and lifetime balancing on carry-in tires.

geoffdgti

rexthrasher writes:
Generally, the smallest rim diameter that will clear your brake calipers and highest sidewall profile provides better snow handling, forget those 17 rims you see on Civics.

Not really. The reason you run small rims in the winter is to limit your exposure to rim damage from pot holes and curbs.

It's difficult to engineer a high traction winter tire that also handles well. To get traction in cold weather, you need to use a very soft rubber compound. To get good handling, you need a stiff sidewall. Hard to get both in the same tire. I'm perfectly happy to drive around all winter with tires that feel like I have four gum erasers.

hpulley4

Why do the sidewalls need to be of the same compound as the tread? Sidewall stiffness and tread softness are quite separate IMO. There are other reasons why the best snow tires handle poorly, tread squirm with the deep tread blocks and sipes for instance.

I use runflat winter tires and the tread compound is soft but the sidewalls will support the weight of the vehicle. You don't need to sacrifice handling for grip.

stever

Good tire article posted elsewhere today:

jimsxn "I don't like SUVs, why do you?" Sep 28, 2003 10:57pm

Steve, Host

londonfin

Hi-
I'm looking for good snows for my 2004 XC-90 with 18" wheels. Any thoughts or recommendations?
Thanks, Jack

JBaumgart

I would look into the Nokian "Hakkapeliitta SUV" tire - looks like it comes in your size: 235/60-18. I am not sure what they cost but I do know that just about everyone who springs for the newer Nokian's say they are excellent.

sequoiasoon

Second on the Nokians. Check Nokiantires.com or e-tires. STS tire now carries them also. The Hak SUV's are AWESOME, if you want studded check also the hak 2 (don't know where you live, only recommend for a lot of hard packed snow or ice). Best price I found was from Rouse Tire in VT. 802-388-4053

londonfin

Thanks. I'll check out the Nokians. The only other one I could find was the Dunlop Grandtrek WT M2's. Do you know anything about them?
-Jack

sequoiasoon

Sorry no experience with that model, I had tried the Dunlop Graspic which wasn't bad. I've tried many different snows over the years and am hooked on the Nokians now. Good advertising maybe, but what sold me was the fact that at the shop I bought them at originally every employee had them on their cars for winter. 20+ guy's worked there, they stocked and sold snows from Bridgestone, Dunlop, Michelin, Firestone, Gislaved, Nokian, Cooper, Pirelli, Hankook and a couple others (it was a 10 bay shop that did nothing but tires!) These guys had their choice of tires to review and use and all chose Nokian models, some studded, some not. To me that said a lot about the quality/performance. You can also check nokian.com as well as nokiantires.com. The nokian.com is the international site that also shows where and how they test tires (arctic circle, frozen lakes etc) and company history etc.

hpulley4

I use Dunlop SP WinterSport M3 DSSTs on my MINI Cooper. May not have much in common with an SUV tire but I really liked the tire last winter, used them in a few winter rallies and lots of snow and they were great. Wear isn't super, I'll only get two seasons out of them, but they work great on ice, snow, mud, gravel, wet and even pretty decent on dry pavement. They handle great, something I don't like about many Q rated snow tires (e.g. Michelin Arctic Alpins) which feel like rubber bands even on our Saturn family wagon which isn't exactly a performance vehicle.

londonfin

I'll be checking out prices for the Nokians. Appreciate the help!

adp3

do any of you folks have info on whether chains are required if you try to go through chain control with an AWD vehicle with all-season tires?

even if you can, is it a really stupid idea?

as a corrolary to this question, how do snow/ice tires fare on dry pavement at highway speed?

the reason for my question is I am considering an AWD vehicle (SRX, XC90, others) but I live 3 hours from the chain control point. How are my nifty tires gonna function when I drive through the sunny climes of the Bay Area nd the Central Valley before I hit the sleet and snow?

And do I have to take my snowies off when I get back home and drive around the Bay Area during the week?

Thanks for the advice.

hpulley4

I can't answer your ski mountain question. I'm sure some gov't authority can tell you what vehicles and/or tires allow you to get by without chains. I wouldn't want to drive in mountain snow on all-season tires. People do it but traction starts with the tires and AWD can't do anything without traction to start with.

As for snow tires at speed, there are many H-rated snow tires available now which handle very well and drive at high speeds no problem on the freeway. My Dunlop SP Wintersport M3 tires are H-rated and do very well on the highway (let's just say mine have been beyond a Q rating). Their dry grip isn't quite as good as performance summer tires but I'd say as good as all-seasons at least. In wet, mud, snow and ice they are much better than all-seasons. In really deep snow, a Q-rated tire will probably do a bit better as they won't have any high speed or handling compromises.

You don't have to take the snow tires off when you get home, you can leave them on for the ski season. Many modern snow tire designs are quiet and comfortable enough to wear all the time; they aren't the knobby, noisy snow tires of yore. With their soft rubber compounds, they'll wear faster than a long treadlife all-season but around here we leave our snow tires on all the time even though it isn't snow covered all the time. I only expect to get two seasons out of a set of snow tires but that's all I get out of high performance summers too.

stever

"Don't I just need snow tires on the drive wheels for traction?

Tire Safety: Don't Ignore the Rubber on the Road

Steve, Host

downeaster16

Hi! I have a 2003 Accord LX with OEM Michelin MXV4 Energy Plus tires, and I live in Maine. Although the car (and tires) are pretty new (just 6k miles on them), I'd be better off, I think, with winter tires. I looked into a local dealership that sells Nokians. They steered me away from the WR's, saying that the WR is a 4-season tire and I already have excellent all-season tries which are pretty new. They recommended either the Hakka Q (if I want studless), or the Hakka 2 (studded, and a bit more expensive).

Does anyone have experience with either the "Q" or the "2"? Or should I go for the WR's after all? I'm not sure how good the Michelins would be in snow - the Tire Rack reviews are all over the place. We get plenty of snow, slush, ice and (sometimes) rain from now until early April. (The ground is still bare so far, at least here in Downeast Maine!) Thanks for your help!

JBaumgart

I agree with the advice you received from the tire shop. The WR's would be a great choice if you were just going to replace your Michelin's and run them year around. The Hak "2" is a more advanced design than the original "Q" and if they're within your budget would give you the best performance in poor winter driving conditions, although the Q would certainly be way better than your current all seasons also.

sequoiasoon

I've had the Nokian Q's on my Corolla for the past 1 1/2 winters. They are excellent in snow, ice, and wet. Only downfall is faster wear in dry conditions. The extensive siping is why they grip so good (but also wear faster) Studded tires are best for continued hard packed snow or ice. They will cause the tire to have less traction on dry (and a real tiresome on trips, pitter patter as the metal hits the ground). The studs definitely have an edge in REALLY bad road conditions. Many family and friends have the WR's (and older NRW version) because they do not want to dedicate tires and rims for winter. I have the WR on the Corolla for the rest of the year, excellent wet and dry tire performed well in the snow when I tried them (but already had the Q's on rims). You can't go wrong with either choice but need to decide where and when most of your driving is. Mostly plowed / salted roads rush hour traffic with the occasional poor condition trip = Q. Poor plowing, constant snow, don't see asphalt for day's/ weeks, mostly polished ice intersections = hak 2

sequoiasoon

Second hpulley's recommendation and check with police / DOT for the chain control area. Ask specific does AWD with severe winter service rated tires (mountain/snowflake symbol on tire) meet guidelines? If not, do studded snows with AWD qualify? I prefer the Nokians and all their winter tires are excellent (and severe service rated). All winter tires have +/-. Read through all the posts here for which best suits your normal driving conditions. Tirerack has a lot info on benefits of each also. You should probably check local police /DOT also, are studded tires allowed in Bay area? if yes what months?

londonfin

Hi-
I have Volvo XC90 and do drive in heavy snow (North East), ice and slush. Local shop suggested Nokian WR's - but they seem like more All-Seasons. Due to my wheel size 235/60/18 my other choice is Hakka SUV's. I do not want to stud them if I go with SUVs. Is that ok not to stud them? My feeling is that I have good (and new) all season on the car so to go for the Hakka SUVs and just not stud them. Is that wise?
Thanks.

sequoiasoon

No issue not studding them. Studs only help in hard packed snow and ice. They cause less traction on dry and wet due the metal touching the ground. I'm on my second set of SUV's and have not studded either set (or the hak 10's that I had before that). I just put my SUV's on the Sequoia this weekend and can't wait for snow. You have to decide what you'll drive in/on most of the time. Read post #289. Just remember you can NOT stud them later if you decide you want the ice traction (but you could e-bay them and get a new set studded). The dirt and rocks in the holes would prevent proper seating of the studs.

Give Rouse tire a call (post #279) their very helpful and might even beat your local prices. They might know of on of the friction type that will fit. My boss put the Hak 2's on his Mustang and whichever size it was, was not studded. There was 4-5 sizes in that tire not studded. This would give you all the great snow with a little better ice (but they will wear quicker in dry (read above posts))

Are you getting dedicated rims for winter or using what you have? Many places suggest going a little narrower for winter to get some increased weight for better grip also. If 16" or 17" was stock this might give you a lot more choices. Tirerack says stock is 235-65-17 for a 2004 XC90. 2003 drops as far as 225-70-16 just a matter of making sure the rims clear the calipers.

londonfin

Thanks for the help. I think I'm going with the Hakka SUV's. They are available in my size (not buying second rims)and I spend more time on bare pavement around Boston than packed snow/ice so I'll skip the studs.

geoffdgti

Personally, I'd get a second set of smaller wheels for the snow tires. You don't want to be mounting/dismounting your summer tires twice a year since that will eventually 'tire them out'. (pun intended) Get yourself a set of smaller wheels for your winter sneakers.

My Mountaineer came stock with 17" wheels. My studded Nokian Hakka SUVs are mounted on 16" Mountaineer wheels I bought on ebay for cheap. Nokian studs aren't all that noisy. My VW with Hakka Q's is as noisy as the SUV.

On a heavy SUV, I think the advantage you get with studs on black ice far outweighs any road noise issue. If you're going to shell out $500+ for snow tires on an SUV, you might as well get all the safety margin you can.

jeff188

I have a 2004 330 convertible with sports package. I want to add 4 snow tires. BMW quoted me ridiculous amount for 4 snow tires and wheels as the fronts are 225/45ZR-17 and the rears are 245/40ZR-17. Has anyone have expereience with adding snows and at what cost?

Thank you

topspin628

Call Tire Rack and get a dedicated set already mounted. I have a 330i with SP and did this. It's works great. You can get 16's all around and you're all set. It was very reasonable.

By the way, I'm considering going with a convertible when my lease is up. Did you get stick or auto? How do you like it so far? I've never owned a rag top and would appreciate any information regarding your driving experience.

pluto5

They are easier to carry and transport unmounted and you will have them balanced each time you mount them whereas you may forget to have them rebalanced if they are already mounted.

krzyss

does not help the rims or the tires. When you check how much you can be charged for "full" service and compare it to just wheel swap with balancing then the extra rims come out dirty cheap.

Krzys

PS If you have sets of tires that require different rims then you need separate rims.

akangl

I have 2 sets of wheels and tires for my 97 Explorer Limited. I figured at $250/wheel used ($600/wheel new), I couldn't really afford to replace the limited wheels when they wore out from constant mounting/unmounting of tires. So, I bought a cheap set of Z Racing wheels for $100/each.

I run Bridgestone Winter Duelers on my Explorer and have yet to find a situation they didn't excell in when it comes to winter roads. We have had freezing rain, deep snow, icy roads, the Explorer was safe and sturdy in any situation. I'm very pleased with the tires and the AWD system in my Explorer.

m3fan

Can anyone tell me about these tires? Local dealer has them, but I've never heard of them before.

Thanks!

ragtop

Winter is here and it time to think snow tires.
I have two questions. The first is: How long will a set of steel wheels last. I had originally purchased a set of wheels 7 years ago and now want to use them to mount new snow tires for my new 2004 Accord. They have don't seem to have any rust on them. So can I use then for another 7 years ??
Second question, My Honda dealer is selling Gislaved snow tires. I have never heard of them. Are they any good ?? They seem to be alot more expensive then Bridgestone Blizzaks.

Any advice......Thanks

sequoiasoon

see posts in the tires forum

andys120

for my Quattro-Blizzak combo ('98 A4) which made short work of my 150 ft driveway covered w 8-10" of snow this AM, plow guy didn't come in. I was practically the only car out there, it was all 4X4 trucks most with plow blades and either knobby tires or chains on.

Steel wheels can be used as long as they aren't dented up etc, should last indefinitely AFAIK.

machaan

I am looking or WR all weather plus.

robr2

Try here:

http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/map.cfm

sequoiasoon

use robr2's link or on the net e-tires. www.etires.com