Are gas prices fueling your pain?

gagrice

Any hydrogen fueled car will be for regional use only. It requires a fairly good supply of Natural Gas to produce. We will generally be using fossil fuel to produce hydrogen. Right now much of the hydrogen is being used in production of fertilizer to grow corn.

The last report I read the Honda Clarity costs over $100,000 to build. Those being leased are just for R&D. If you commute in a certain part of California you may be eligible to lease one. It will be expensive and mostly for show. Hopefully it is more comfortable than the 07 Civic I rode in.

xrunner2

Perhaps health insurance premiums should be increased for those who do NOT ride bikes to work and thus have to deal with higher rates of obesity, high cholesterol, high blood pressure and all the other health consequences that plague our lethargic society.

Many people who work in offices "do" use much or all of their lunch hour getting exercise by walking. Walking is a far better exercise for the whole body than is bike riding. And, except for those talking on a cell phone while walking, there is much, much less danger in suffering an injury compared to riding a bike. Walking at lunch hour is good for the body and mind and has side benefit of not wasting gasoline by driving to a restaurant for lunch.

texases

"Any hydrogen fueled car will be for regional use only. It requires a fairly good supply of Natural Gas to produce. We will generally be using fossil fuel to produce hydrogen. Right now much of the hydrogen is being used in production of fertilizer to grow corn. "

So someone please tell me - why do it? Why not take the methane straight to CNG vehicles though the existing pipelines? Why not take the electricity straight to a plugin hybrid? Avoid the huge $$s for new infrastructure and fuel cells that don't (economically) exist.

gagrice

But the Smart gets an EPA estimate of 41 MPG so your Yaris gets much less mileage.

Looking at the EPA site the Smart is getting about 38 MPG according to 22 people reporting their mileage. The Yaris according to 21 drivers is also getting 38 MPG. That goes along with my son in laws Yaris. He has averaged 38 MPG since new. Has gotten 40 MPG on his commute. It beats the Honda 750 Magna he rode to work for the last 5 years.

I just think the Smart should be better for its miniscule size. I wanted one after talking to an owner in Victoria BC. He was getting 72 MPG mostly in town with his. There is no way you can get that with the Smart gas version. They have neutered the car in my opinion. The dealer in BC claimed he had customers getting 90 MPG on the highway. They are pretty strict about their 90 KMH speed limit.

Lastly, diesel in BC is cheaper than Premium Unleaded that the Smart requires. I can get diesel in SD for less than my local station is selling Premium. I know they are selling the Smart OK here. Other than quirky looks, I cannot see any good reason for the sales.

gagrice

We are always after something that is not practical. CNG would be much better and very clean burning. It would not have near the problems with storing hydrogen. So soon we forget the Hindenburg. Hydrogen is a volatile element. Not sure how Honda is protecting the fuel cells from crash. CNG/LNG tanks are expensive and have to be certified safe periodically. I would imagine hydrogen storage would be a lot closer scrutinized.

mattandi

I would guess that there is a 50/50 chance that aliens have taken over his mind.

hehe, you just may be right. :surprise:

The Benz was a surprise when he bought it. It is the only other foreign make I can remember him owning. At least it was one of the larger sedans, a 2000 E class if I remember correctly. He didn't keep it very long. He missed the floaty American ride.

The Prius is completely out of character for him. A few of his friends have bought small recently, so maybe some influence there. I remember a friend of his bragging on the mileage his new Fit got. Maybe Dad wanted to one up him. He is a classic chronic car buyer.

Yes, the market is shifting, but it will take a while for us to move away from SUV's through attrition in any significant numbers. My very informal observation was that I saw more newer model trucks and SUV's than smaller vehicles. Say about '04 and newer. Then again I was on the big road on the weekend, and lots of those big buggies were pulling campers and boats. That could still support that driving habits are changing. Maybe all those folks had new Yarii or Civics parked back home, and hauled out the big rigs for the weekend family getaway.

larsb

Just because we are not PRIVY to the reasons SMART USA chose to not sell the diesel version here does not mean they don't have a perfectly good reason why it is not available here.

Believe me - they have a good reason. Probably from the marketing department, or maybe the accounting department, or maybe from the engineering department.

Maybe they don' have the filtering system developed well enough to meet 50-state standards in the good ole' CLEAN AIR USA................

Maybe they know that the USA has not yet embraced diesel cars and don't want to send a bunch of them here and have them gather cobwebs at the dealerships........

Believe me -THEY think the reasons are good, and THEY are the ones whose pocketbooks control that decision.

mattandi

Everything has its problems. It often comes down to what trade-offs we are willing to accept. Even gasoline is explosive, the fumes are dangerous, it is corrosive, it poses all manner of health and environmental threats, and on and on. On top of that it is nothing more than a waste product at heart with no real practical way to dispose of it. So we have accepted this massive hazardous waste disposal system that effectively drives our way of life. That system is also fairly heavily scrutinized and regulated more or less, sometimes very impractically, and we have made mistakes along the way.

So, some are looking at other avenues. An unfortunate by-product of the mistakes along the way, and the resulting regulation, is that looking at alternatives has become a very expensive proposition. Economics has become a much larger factor in the whole picture. We still have our Orville and Wilburs toiling away in small shops, but they are more marginalized than in times past.

I am glad there are some with vision who at least attempt to tackle seemingly insurmountable problems. In spite of the apparent impracticality of the solutions and alternatives they are exploring, they keep tilting at their windmills.

larsb

Now all we need is a fleet of these in all the forms: Microcar, Sedan, Sports Car, SUV, Truck, Wagon, etc:

Car runs on water and air

New Fuel Cell System 'Generates Electricity with Only Water, Air'
Jun 13, 2008 19:30
Kouji Kariatsumari, Nikkei Electronics
Genepax Co Ltd explained the technologies used in its new fuel cell system "Water Energy System (WES)," which uses water as a fuel and does not emit CO2.

The system can generate power just by supplying water and air to the fuel and air electrodes, respectively, the company said at the press conference, which took place June 12, 2008, at the Osaka Assembly Hall.

The basic power generation mechanism of the new system is similar to that of a normal fuel cell, which uses hydrogen as a fuel. According to Genepax, the main feature of the new system is that it uses the company's membrane electrode assembly (MEA), which contains a material capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.

Though the company did not reveal the details, it "succeeded in adopting a well-known process to produce hydrogen from water to the MEA," said Hirasawa Kiyoshi, the company's president. This process is allegedly similar to the mechanism that produces hydrogen by a reaction of metal hydride and water. But compared with the existing method, the new process is expected to produce hydrogen from water for longer time, the company said.

texases

"New Fuel Cell System 'Generates Electricity with Only Water, Air' "

Well, at least snake oil salesmen are not limited to the US! This uses some sort of chemical reaction to split water - sure, it can be done, but now you're replacing electrical power with chemical power, which has to be expensive. No such thing as a free lunch, sorry to say.

fezo

But it's so sharp looking....

larsb

"Sharp" as in, "Put the F in Fugly"

stever

Wait till they tell you that it requires Perrier or Aquafina to run. That stuff costs more than RUG. :P

jimbres

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned telecommuting as an alternative to driving. It goes without saying that if your work requires your physical presence at a specific job site, this won't work for you. If, for example, you're a dentist, a carpenter or a cop, you can't telecommute. But millions of us spend our workdays in cubicles, using computers & telephones to get our work done. There's little or nothing that we do in the office that we couldn't do just as well at home.

I've been telecommuting since 1993, when my employer introduced it in response to a state government clean air initiative. For many years, I worked at home 2 days a week, but lately I've been telecommuting 3 to 4 days per week.

I really don't see a downside. I can sleep later, cut my commuting time to zero & save money. My employer also benefits because I tend to start work earlier & quit later on telecommuting days. Even those who can't telecommute get something from it: one less car on the road & one more empty seat on the train.

Anyone else out there working from home more frequently to cut down on travel costs?

stever

I've telecommuted from home since 1983 (assuming that you consider using the phone and fax telecommuting - computers made my life a lot easier when they came along).

It's been about that long since I've owned a suit.

But lots of people, like my spouse, would rather go to an office than try to work out of the house. Interruptions tend to be non-work related and it's oh so easy to raid the fridge and chill in the hammock (my laptop works fine from there though :shades: ).

My wife puts about 10,000 miles a year on her car, but it's our main travel and grocery rig. I put about 5,000 miles a year on mine, and for about 9 of the years since '83, we shared one car.

Funny thing, 3 of my neighbors in my little cul-de-sac of 7 homes telecommute or have a home based business so it may be more common than people think.

simpilot1

I just returned from a 3,000 mile trip to New Mexico via I44/I40, Colorado via I25, and return to St. Louis via I70. I noticed that trucks are running 10-15 mph slower than in previous years and that there were far fewer motorhomes and large travel trailers on the road than in previous years.

mattandi

Trucks are difficult to judge on the interstate routes I was on. Both I77 and I81 have some long slow grades on the route I took, so trucks always have been slow. I was impressed with how slow the rest of the traffic was compared to previous trips. I'm the type who tries to never be in a hurry, so it didn't bother me. I do not like just sitting in traffic though. I'll be taking I40/I85/I95 next week to join my wife in MD. That route has many stretches prone to heavy traffic that just pokes along, especially by DC. We'll see how it goes.

dave8697

80% of the oil that is coming through the Alaska pipeline is sold and shipped to Japan. the whole world is tapped out. A half million a day from Saudi Arabia is not going to change anything.

texases

"80% of the oil that is coming through the Alaska pipeline is sold and shipped to Japan"

Where'd you hear that? Several west coast refineries were optimized for AK crude, so I'd be surprised if it was 80%.

tedebear

Walking is a far better exercise for the whole body than is bike riding

I think not. Look up some anaerobic heartrate thresholds to see what it takes at various levels to obtain a proper workout. Walking just doesn't do it, although I guess the office workers who are walking during their lunch hour are at least striving towards a more healthy lifestyle than the ones sitting in the lunchroom eating cupcakes.

On an unrelated note, RUG was spotted at $3.84/gal during my ride to work today.

kernick

Seems like a pretty reasonable solution.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/16/news/economy/gas_moving/index.htm?postversion=20- - 08061604

One of the problems I see with buying a scooter is that not only am I going to tie up a few thousand $, but any money I save on gas will be eaten up by registration taxes and extra insurance.

british_rover

In most states for scooters you do not have to register them although you would still pay sales tax of course.

gagrice

I think the ARCO refineries in WA and CA are supplied by AK crude. Who knows where oil goes once it is in the tanker. It may be beneficial to ship from AK to Japan and get crude from Canada or Mexico. The whole idea of SA adding production is to let the traders know that there is plenty of supply and the price is too high. At $130 per barrel it becomes disruptive to the World economy and what OPEC makes in higher oil prices they lose on investments. All part of the World Economic balancing act...

gagrice

I commuted by plane every 3 weeks to work for 25 years. Once I was at work I was using company truck & housing. My car use was just for pleasure the 3 weeks out of 6 that I was home. A big year of vehicle use was 7000 miles. I also have a few friends that are telecommuting. One friend just started and saves him 70 miles round trip and his company additional office space. He works for HP, so large corporations are seeing the benefits also..

stever

There was a 23 year ban on exporting Alaska North Slope oil that Clinton lifted in 1996.

About 7% of crude oil production from the Alaska North Slope (ANS) was exported to South Korea, Japan, and China back in 2000; didn't see a current link in a brief skim. Alaska Oil Exports

kernick

In most states for scooters you do not have to register them although you would still pay sales tax of course.

I just looked that up and the DOT says <50cc don't need registration. Scooters range in engine size from 49 - 250cc from what I see. Being in NH we don't pay sales tax though. It would be the insurance though that would be the main cost - I could imagine that is $300 - $500/year on top of the car insurance.

gagrice

We have a lot of things to thank Clinton for. He allowed Exxon to take over Mobil, BP to gobble up ARCO & Chevron to buy out Texaco. Along with BP providing the financing of Conoco Phillips in their North Slope oil operations.

I did think we were sending oil to the Pacific Rim before 1996. We did not worry much about the oil once it left Prudhoe Bay.

xrunner2

I think not. Look up some anaerobic heartrate thresholds to see what it takes at various levels to obtain a proper workout. Walking just doesn't do it, although I guess the office workers who are walking during their lunch hour are at least striving towards a more healthy lifestyle than the ones sitting in the lunchroom eating cupcakes.

Depends on walking speed, flat or incline sidewalk/road, etc. Not much point to biking, except to save on gasoline costs if commuting, if similar exercise can be done on a Schwinn Airdyne. Actually, Schwinn is better in that back-and-forth arm movement is required.

A more complete workout can be had with a treadmill having multi-speed, cushioned/incline capable track than a bike. Treadmills with inclines are used for stress tests by heart doctors in my area, not stationary bikes.

Our large metro paper had a front page story yesterday about the increasing number of people that are using bikes to commute to their jobs to cut back on vehicle use and avoid gasoline cost.

british_rover

Well when I was getting quotes for real motorcycles not scooters earlier this year I got quotes ranging from 112 dollars a year to 250 dollars a year for bikes between 250cc and 500cc.

I would expect a scooter to be less then a real motorcycle.

nwng

do you get a power boost by using vitamin water?

explorerx4

if you had driven to work today, you could have taken advantage of that bargain.

nwng

maybe edmunds should start a motorcycle/scooter site

autowrite

We have a minivan & we are not going to trade it/sell it; period. We drove it from Ontario, Canada to Texas in Feb 08 and averaged 30mi/can gal & it was loaded with 2 sewing machines and piles of luggage. Yesterday we bought and loaded the minivan with wood trim for our house (16 pieces of 7 ft x 3") . We are retired on CPP pension. No way are parting company. This van makes sense! Some rich speculators are getting rich jacking the price of oil. This needs to stop.
We live in a small city (120,000) 50 miles west of Toronto. There is only a lousy bus service in this small city. Going from the NE corner of the city to the SW corner of the city takes 20 minutes. We get on the freeway (401) just south (6 miles) of us to visit the folks in Montreal (600 kms) twice a year. The family members are scattered on the island of Montreal. To fly and rent a car for 2 people would cost a small fortune in comparision to using the Honda minivan.

2002 Honda Odyssey EX (current)

Previous vehicles
1992 Ford Taurus L 4 door 300 cu in long-stroke
1982 Ford E150 Customized by Triple-E travel Van 351 cu ins V8
1979 Mercury Zephyr 6 cylinder 4-door sedan
1972 Datsun 510 4-door automatic
1967 Plymount Valiant 2-door sedan large-v6
1965 Morris 1100
1963 Austin 850 mini

mattandi

You guys got me curious so I checked. NC is in line with this. As long as the scooter does not exceed 50cc and has a top speed less than 30mph, it does not need to be registered, requires no insurance, and the driver does not need a license but must be 16 or older. Not a bad option for some folks I guess.

stever

motorcycle/scooter site

Karl (Editor in Chief) is big on bikes but the FAQ says otherwise.

No vitamin enriched energy water on tap around here.

texases

"As long as the scooter does not exceed 50cc and has a top speed less than 30mph"

Yes, there's scooters and there's SCOOTERS - some up to (and over :surprise: ) 500cc.

mattandi

bet that would really . . .um . . .scoot :P

mattandi

This is one of the more sensible alternatives I've heard of as well. It also is riding a wave of societal change that had already begun, at least here in the south. We have seen a strong resurgence of downtowns in our cities here in NC. This has been occurring more rapidly over the last 10 years or so. There were lots of naysayers as cities like Winston-Salem, Charlotte, and Raleigh commissioned economic studies that supported more downtown re-development. The car culture certainly fueled the suburban lifestyle and resulting urban sprawl. These were sleepy downtowns that rolled up their sidewalks at 6:00pm. Now they are vibrant and lively every night with many more downtown residents and more businesses that cater to their lives. They always were decent walking cities for those who worked there, but everyone would load into their cars to go home at night. Now more and more folks are choosing to live there as well and not even own a car. Very unusual in this neck of the woods.

oldfarmer50

"...In most states for scooters you do not have to register them..."

Not here in New York. They get their hand in your pocket for everything. I recall news articles where a local girl was cited for riding a skateboard that had an electric motor. I think it was for unregistered vehicle. Top speed about 3mph.

More recently a local guy was arrested for DWI. His crime, sitting on top of a motorized beer cooler as he left a picnic.

You can't sit on a toilet here without someone trying to fine you.

british_rover

Scooter to end all scooters...



They make 250cc, 400cc and 500cc models and yes they do have two front wheels.





Piaggio MP3

snakeweasel

Looking at the EPA site the Smart is getting about 38 MPG according to 22 people reporting their mileage. The Yaris according to 21 drivers is also getting 38 MPG.

If you look at the individual figures you will see 10 people with the Smart car driving 50% or more city compared to only 6 for the Yaris. Of those driving 70% or more highway there are only 2 drivers of Smarts reporting and 10 drivers of Yaris. Tends to skew the numbers a bit don't you think? Try comparing the ones who drive mostly highway between the two, or mostly city. Then we can talk.

Lastly, diesel in BC is cheaper than Premium Unleaded that the Smart requires

Not around here, Diesel is much more expensive around here.

gagrice

They have been renovating downtown San Diego for 20+ years. It looks great and has lots of great places to shop and eat. Like most cities I would not go down at night. Lack of police protection, gangs and just undesirable people come out after dark. Plus all the condos are EXPENSIVE. On average I would say $400k more than the same condo in the suburbs 20 miles away. You can buy a nice car and LOTS of gas for the difference. I would say the interest on that $400k would supply pretty darn good transportation. I have gone a couple years without setting foot in downtown SD. I do like the Zoo and Balboa Park just a bit out of downtown.

explorerx4

the river is now considered a recreation area. i think they are going to have to jump through a lot of federal and state hoops to move ahead with that proposal.
i have never trusted collinsville with control of that water.

duke23

Almost gagrice, but let's give credit. The Clinton justice administration allowed Exxon to marry Mobil. Polygamist BP to marry not only Amoco but Arco as well. Chevron to marry Texaco ( they later added Unocal) and Conoco to marry Phillips. Ol John D.Rockefeller must have been sitting up in his grave cackling " it took me 80 years". So while the oil orgy/ rev. moon ceremony was going on what did the Clinton/Joel/Klein/Janet Reno team go after instead ? Microsoft. Because we all know you can monopolize technology vs physical commodities.All because Joel was a frustrated Mac user, as if Apple needed any help. .....sigh

mattandi

Fortunately we have never had severe crime problems here. The downtowns have long been relatively safe. We have good police presence with the recent opening of a full time bicycle patrol station. I guess that also saves a little gas.

There has been some speculation here that has driven real estate prices up some, but nothing like you describe. Just a bit above our local average. Most of it is condo type properties and a few co-ops. They have been fairly popular with younger professionals.

gagrice

Clinton/Joel/Klein/Janet Reno team go after instead ? Microsoft.

You have a great handle on what went down in the 1990s. I might add the Microsoft battle with the Justice dept. was the needle that popped the Dot.Com bubble taking about half of my 401k with it. Took till 2003 to get back to where it was.

The late 1990s just go to show that cheap gas is not the most important thing in life.

avalon02wh

"I'm surprised that no one has mentioned telecommuting as an alternative to driving. "

People have mentioned telecommuting. Just a thought, but you may want to try the "search this discussion" to see if the topic has been mentioned. Telecommuting was mentioned way back in 2007 - about 8000 messages ago!

I would agree that telecommuting has its advantages. It also has disadvantages. Business is by and large command and control.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bya1.htm

Managers are not always that great when it comes to setting goals or allowing workers freedom. There are also the workers that will game the system. So, because of the small? percent of workers that need supervision, the rest of us get to commute to the office.

The higher gas prices will help increase the number of telecommuters. I'm not sure we will see a massive change unless there is actual gasoline shortages.

The other thing to consider is that broadband computer access has only been around for a few years for most people. Change takes time. The next generation of managers will likely be more comfortable with telecommuting.

avalon02wh

We tested the Honda Metropolitan Scooter (50cc) last weekend and a Schwinn last night. They were fun. But as you said, two grand is a bit much when you look at the gas savings versus the other costs.

Around here a scooter would be OK for 6 to 9 months out of the year depending on your tolerance for cold. Safety is a bit of an issue in my mind. There is also the issue of power. If you are under 200 pounds they should be able to get you up to 35 mph or so. As your weight increases you can probably figure that you will lose 1 mph for each 10 pound over about 200 pounds. Hills would also be an issue.

We are also looking into electric bikes. Urbanscooter has the X-Treme X-56O Electric Scooter which might be a better option. The price is only $450, payback would come a lot quicker as compared to a $2,000 gas scooter. My commute is only about 2-3 miles. It would make a nice "fair weather" bike that would get me up and over the big hill.

The hangup right now is trying to find one that we can test drive. We are also still a bit fuzzy on the traffic laws.

kernick

Those are fairly nice "scooters"; at least the 2nd and 3rd ones. They sort of look like the Hummers-of-Scooters.

Living here in NH, I too would find that many days it would not be a viable machine for the weather. Maybe it has some storage under the seat? How do you carry your lunch, clothes, laptop, store your helmet, pick up some milk and bread? Do those things have a plug-in for the IPod and a NAV system?

jimbres

Good points. My current manager is much younger than my previous boss - hell, he's young enough to be my son - & he's clearly more comfortable with telecommuting. For him, it's just another way to bring the work & the worker together.

You're also right about broadband. It's possible to telecommute using dial-up - I did it for 5 or 6 years - but not until I got broadband could I say that I was 100% as productive at home as I was at the office. Broadband changes everything.