OPEC says there is a glut right now. Some are going to cut production. Yet the price continues higher. Iraq is getting into the picture. That will add more to the already flooded market. I find it hard to believe there are not people now like John D. Rockefeller that are behind the scenes pulling the strings. We are merely pawns in their games. I do not believe that bunch of worthless wackos in Congress can do anything but make it worse. They are being played like a cheap fiddle.
Well, some agreements are being signed. Significant production increases are years away, and, if no improvement in security is seen, will be limited by constant pipeline/facility sabotage. This is occurring today in Nigeria, with strikes and facility takeovers keeping production and development well below capacity.
I agree there is a lot of instability in the producing countries. Even our neighbor to the South has a hard time keeping the flow moving. Plus it is not an overnight process getting production increased. As was mentioned, without any shortages it is hard to believe we are close to peak production. Even with diesel being overpriced you never saw any pumps saying all out of diesel.
I know there are a few here that do not believe in conspiracies. And it is hard to believe it can happen in this day and age of information. But it does.
OPEC says there is a glut right now. Some are going to cut production.
Where is it? The US supplies are below their average level for this time of year. The Saudis have said they will increase production. I suspect they are as knowledgeable as anyone regarding the supply of oil on the market. Libya has said that it will reduce production. I'll believe that when I see it. I think that statement was politically motivated to show support for Iran. Oil traders/speculators have no desire to see 1,000 barrels of oil delivered to their doorsteps. They absolutely must sell this contract to an end user. These end users are the ones that are actually holding supply. Now if what they are holding represented a glut they'd have no desire to buy oil contracts at inflated prices. These speculators would become desperate to sell and the price would collapse. That's not happening.
We are merely pawns in their games.
The typical poster on Edmunds may be a pawn but there are a lot of big industries with influence in Washington that are being badly hurt by these high oil prices. The auto and airline industry to name a couple. If the leaders in these industries thought the market was being manipulated I've got to believe they'd be crying foul and someone would be listening. It seems to me the only person claiming manipulation or some conspiracy is the average Joe struggling to buy gas. While a sympathetic figure I'm not sure what would give him any unique insight into what's driving the oil market.
A 13 year old BMW cannot be worth much. Especially charred. He should have bought a diesel BMW that gets 60+MPG. It would have eased the pain a little.
This is how sad it is around me: People are coming in with change to buy a fraction of a gallon of gas so they can make it to their job. One lady was in tears today - she spends now more in gasoline to go back and forth to work, (20 mile commute one way) to a job that isn’t worth it anymore. She is on minimum wage and her hours have been cut to 24 a week. Great what makes me fuming mad is that the outfit she works for is a huge grocery chain that could and should be able to afford to keep their workforce employed full time during these hard times so that they can at least survive. She is stuck - if she quits she will be denied unemployment and if she stays she can’t pay for the gas to go back and forth. I am a little tiny outfit compared to this grocery chain and yet I will not cut my employees hours - I’d rather use my skills and squeeze out a little bit more margin from my vendors and increase the price a little bit here and there so that we can all have a job and make it. (No, in case you wonder, we do not make any significant profit on gasoline - the fact is the price of gas is what it is. If I end up making 5 cents profit a gallon it’s a good month ) The problem is that everyone has to use whatever money they have to pay for gas, they have hardly any money left for snacks and groceries. (which is where I make a living from )
The man was unemployed. He couldn't afford to run a VW let alone a BMW. If he really wanted to make a statement, he should've torched some oil exec's ride.
A good first step would be for the US should simply find some competent financial people to manage the stupid fed and lend some economic direction rather than relying on Bernanke and his gang of idiots :sick:
"Police were investigating whether the man could be charged with violating German environmental laws with the stunt, Wagner said. Penalties range from fines to five years in prison"
And the ridiculous German nanny-state is always around the corner, prioving how little has changed in 63 years. He should have torched Merkel's chariot or aimed at some of the EU coward cronies.
From my recent NC/SC trip, the major issue I saw was how high gas prices were gutting the tourist industry. A shop owner in Asheville said that the overall trade for tourist-related businesses (shops, B&Bs, that kind of thing) was down 40% in the Asheville area, and that a number were thinking of shutting down. When there's a loan to be paid, and expenses are up and income is down, something's gotta give. It'll be a vicious cycle, with fewer shops leading to even fewer tourists, etc. etc. Not a pretty picture :sick:
It seems to me the only person claiming manipulation or some conspiracy is the average Joe struggling to buy gas.
There are others in the media that also concur on market manipulation. For those that do not believe in Conspiracies need to read the convictions on key Enron players.
Enron Chiefs Guilty of Fraud and Conspiracy
HOUSTON, May 25 — Kenneth L. Lay and Jeffrey K. Skilling, the chief executives who guided Enron through its spectacular rise and even more stunning fall, were found guilty today of fraud and conspiracy. They are among the most prominent corporate leaders to emerge from a wave of scandals that marked the get-rich-quick excesses and management failures of the 1990's.
So soon we forget. That cost US all money.. Here from Business Week
High Oil Prices: It's All Speculation The Administration says oil's runup is due to shortages, but the evidence points to manipulation
by Ed Wallace
Today, while energy prices are crushing American families, I think we'd all benefit by reflecting on what happened with energy in 2001. Seven years ago, Enron was fleecing California, extorting its people for electricity to the tune of billions of dollars. As is true today, some voices in the Administration claimed that supply shortages, not manipulation, formed the core of California's soaring electricity prices. Yet, now that we know the whole story of Enron's criminal manipulations, many menbers of the media have forgotten how in 2001 the White House deflected any blame for California's suddenly stratospheric electrical costs away from their Houston friends.
Likewise, our Energy Secretary has a real problem discussing issues with facts. Like a broken record, he continues to maintain that in no way has speculation had anything to do with today's high oil prices. No, to hear Sam Bodman tell it, they are now and always have been caused by too many buyers chasing too few barrels of oil. But, while that might have been true in 2004, things have changed. And so I give you just one week of news from the oil market. To be more exact, it's the oil news from the seven days preceding our Energy Secretary's comments about supply and demand. It Was Printed in English
"[U.S.] demand for oil over the first five months of the year was off 2.5%* from last year." —American Petroleum Institute, June 18, 2008, Associated Press Online (*Translation: We are using approximately 525,000 fewer barrels of oil per day.)
"Iran has 15 [oil] supertankers idling in the Persian Gulf capable of storing more than 30 million barrels of crude." —Bloomberg, June 16, 2008
"Thunder Horse started pumping from a single well on Saturday and on schedule to have the field online by yearend. Thunder Horse alone will increase overall U.S. oil and gas production by 3.6%. Add British Petroleum's Atlantis platform that started up last year, and the boost grows to 6.4%." —Houston Chronicle, June 16, 2008
Just because Ken Lay and a couple of his rotten criminal buddies "conspired" within ONE SINGLE US COMPANY IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY and were convicted of a conspiracy DOES NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM have anything to say about the rampantness or frequency or number of corporate conspiracies.
Enron does not prove anything about conspiracies.
In fact, that case should show us all how DANGEROUS it is to ATTEMPT to perform such a heinous act, and people with common sense know better than to even attempt such a thing.
And in such a widely noticed market like the WORLD OIL SUPPLY? Are you frickin kiddin? No one in their right mind would even ATTEMPT such a thing and hope to get away with anything like that.
Their is no broad conspiracy driving up oil prices. If there was, like I said earlier (don't ignore it this time) oil prices would be $5,000 a barrel and not $150.
Their is no broad conspiracy driving up oil prices. If there was, like I said earlier (don't ignore it this time) oil prices would be $5,000 a barrel and not $150
How many do you suppose they could sell at $5000 per barrel. Those in the know, know how much we will pay.. And of course all good liberals and tree huggers want the price of gas to stay high. It fits the agenda of eliminating personal automotive transportation.
So we disagree once again.
In spite of your liking huge capital letters. That does not make a statement correct or even more believable. Your take on human nature I find interesting. People will always try to beat the system. Most do not believe they will get caught. Or do you think Skillings and Lay were just one time idiots that were able to scam Billions from innocent people. How can someone be tried for CONSPIRACY if none exists?
Probably the only reason they nailed the Enron crowd is most the the CONSPIRACY was right under the nose or our justice department. How do you propose we verify the dealings of say the Quantum fund? Do you have any idea how much they are involved in Oil futures?
Soros speculates in world financial markets through his secret offshore company, Quantum Fund N.V., a wholly private investment fund called a "hedge fund." ( Hedge funds have been identified by international police agencies as the fastest-growing outlet for illegal money laundering today.) ... Soros's Quantum Fund is registered in Curacao, Netherlands Antilles, the Caribbean tax haven - so he avoids paying taxes, and also hides the nature of his investors, and what he does with their money. By moving his legal headquarters to Curacao. Soros was able to avoid the kind of U.S. government supervision of his financial activities, that any U.S.-based investment fund must agree to, in order to operate. The Netherland Antilles, a possession of the Kingdom of Holland, has repeatedly been cited by the International Task Force on Money Laundering of the OECD as one of the world's most important centers for laundering the illegal proceeds of the Latin American cocaine and other drug traffic.
Soros has also taken care that none of the 99 individual investors who form his various funds, is an American national. By U.S. securities law, a hedge fund is limited to no more than 99 investors of highly wealthy individuals, so-called "sophisticated investors." By structuring his investment company as an offshore hedge fund, Soros avoids public scrutiny. Soros himself is not even on the board of Quantum Fund. Instead, for legal reasons, he serves as official "Investment Advisor" to Quantum Fund N.V. through his company, Soros Fund Management, of 888 Seventh Avenue, New York City. If any demand be made of Soros to reveal the details of Quantum Fund, he can claim he is "merely its investment adviser."
... According to knowledgeable U.S. and European investigators, Soros is part of a circle which includes Marc Rich of Zug, Switzerland and Tel Aviv, the indicted metals and commodity speculator and fugitive; Shaul Eisenberg, the secretive Israeli arms and commodities dealer; and "Dirty Rafi" Eytan - both linked to the financial side of the Israeli Mossad, and to the family of Jacob Lord Rothschild.
There seems to be a question about the legality of riding on the sidewalks in AZ. Never found any legit source.
An Arizona Bike Law Blog doesn't specifically say that riding on the sidewalk is prohibited. There are local laws in various cities that do prohibit this. Tucson is one of them. See City of Tucson Bicycle Laws. However, the blog does point out that 72% of bike-motor vehicle collisions involved a cyclist who was on or had just left the sidewalk.
I think I'll stick to the safer roads, especially when pedaling across Arizona.
There is not a question in my case. Riding bikes on sidewalks in AZ is perfectly legal where I ride. At least in Tempe and Phoenix. I see it done all the time, do it myself all the time five days a week, sometimes six.
I have seen and waved at Tempe and Phoenix police many times while on a sidewalk on my bike.
My educated conclusion: If it's illegal, it is not enforced.
The state itself does not have restrictions on sidewalk bike riding. Municipalities might. Tucson prohibits it.
Nothing in the Phoenix city code about bikes on the sidewalk specifically. Still checking Tempe.......
I would feel safer on the sidewalk. It is just going across streets with people in cars turning the corners that you have to watch out for. That and little old ladies sticking a cane in your spokes :shades:
I've heard of polarized license plate covers that won't let the plate be seen from an angle -- only from directly behind.
Mythbusters did a test on those things and also a spray that you apply to your plate that supposedly makes it invisible to the camera. None of the devices worked.
I would feel safer on the sidewalk. It is just going across streets with people in cars turning the corners that you have to watch out for. That and little old ladies sticking a cane in your spokes
Well on a sidewalk, when you come to a crosswalk, you're supposed to stop, get off your bike and walk it across the street. So in theory, a crosswalk shouldn't pose any more of a threat to a bicyclist than it would to a pedestrian.
The main issue I have with bikes on sidewalks is their riders often have no regard for walkers. And then when they come to a crosswalk, they'll just blast right through it and expect traffic to magically just stop for them. I almost took out two bikers a couple years ago in DC because of this. I was waiting to make a left turn on green, and they came up behind me, in the street. Well, just as I had a break in traffic to make my left turn, they cut up onto that sidewalk without even slowing, and started to blast full-speed across that crosswalk. They came damned close to smacking into the side of my car. I'm sure that would've been messy.
How does something like that work, anyway, if a bicyclist gets into an accident with a car and is at fault? It's not like they have insurance that's going to pay up. I guess it would be covered under the comprehensive policy on my insurance, and then I'd just have to take the biker to court to get my deductible back? Doesn't seem fair, to put a motorist through that kind of crap. Maybe they should start making bicyclists have insurance? Or, if you have car insurance, just have it automatically cover you if you're on a bike?
Here's a simple way to look at the oil market that I think most people can grasp. Imagine that we do away with the commodities exchanges and every oil producer comes up with a website where they sell their oil. Saudi Arabia's website says that they are selling oil at $140/barrel. Guess what, they will sell every barrel they produce. They could potentially charge $200/barrel and still sell out. The oil producers are in a unique situation where they don't have to compete because the market is consuming all that can be produced and this demand is relatively inelastic. It's quite possible that oil is still undervalued because the consumers will probably pay more, considerably more.
I've heard the argument that the Saudis are heavily invested outside their country and do not want the world economy to tank. Well by charging $140/barrel as opposed to $40/barrel they are generating an extra $1 billion a day. I've got to believe their foreign investments pale in comparison to that revenue.
And of course all good liberals and tree huggers want the price of gas to stay high. It fits the agenda of eliminating personal automotive transportation
There were actually quite a few economists that could be categorized as "conservative" that advocated higher fuel taxes before the market made the issue somewhat moot. I know that when gas was less than $2/gallon Alan Greenspan endorsed higher fuel taxes. Alan Greenspan is someone that very much believed in the Ayn Rand, Objectivism philosophy. It doesn't get more conservative than that.
What makes a person a "tree hugger". If you like clean air are you a tree hugger? If you like beaches that aren't tarnished by oil spills are you a tree hugger? It always makes for a compelling argument to categorize someone by calling them a name but I'd be curious to find out exactly what the definition of a tree hugger is.
Also, a lot of these liberal, tree huggers are big advocates of hybrids, plug-in hybrids and EVs. Isn't this still personal automotive transportation?
As far as "walking the bike across the crosswalks" that's just SO not going to happen in almost every case. It's just too much trouble and too time-consuming to stop and walk it across.
What a biker loses if they DO NOT walk it across a crosswalk is the protections guaranteed to a pedestrian. You are not a pedestrian when you are RIDING YOUR BIKE through a pedestrian crosswalk.
Crosswalks are when I feel the most danger as a sidewalk biker. I could alleviate it some if I stopped and walked across, but I have about 35 side streets and/or crosswalks to cross in my 6.5 mile commute by bike. If I stopped and walked EVERY one of those, it would add at LEAST 10 more minutes to my commute. It's just too much of a pain !!! I'll take my risks instead and be attentive to the cars which might hit me. I also have a 130 decibel air horn on my bike which I use to get driver's attention when I have to !!
Most car insurance companies will cover any damage you cause another car even if it is not in your vehicle. Or your homeowner's policy will cover it.
For people who have no car or home insurance, and own only a bike, then I guess they would be personally held responsible for paying any damage.
Also, ND is not in the same league as Alaska when it comes to oil production, as I suspect you are aware. Alaska peaked at 2 million barrels a day, we just reached 150,000. Are populations are similar, so there is less money for ND residents compared to Alaska.
"All those out of work UAW guys should be headed over to get a good job. "
Guess what, they will sell every barrel they produce. They could potentially charge $200/barrel and still sell out.
If there is a shortage that would be the case. I have not seen any lines or empty pumps at ANY station. If every gas station in the USA has gas, the demand IS being met. So our Energy Secretary is saying there is a shortage. Where is the shortage at? Some of the oil producers are claiming there is plenty and may have to cut production. If there is any oil tanker sitting in the harbor with no place to put their oil we are in a glut. If you look at the OPEC website you will see the basket price is less than the market price. That means oil is actually being sold for less than the market price.
Now to your original statement. If SA says I want $140 for oil and Canada says I will sell mine for$135 which are you going to buy? Just so they do not have a tanker sitting in the Long Beach Harbor SA says I'll go you one better and sell you oil for $130 a barrel. Point being in a fair market that is the way it should work. I am not convinced as of today we are playing in a fair market. Someone is lying to US. Either our Energy Secretary that says we have a shortage that causes this high price or the OPEC people that say there is plenty and it is all speculation. As of yesterday OPEC was selling their oil at $130.77 per barrel.
If the Energy Secretary, whose job it is to, you know, KNOW things like that, says there are shortages, then he has information/statistics which show a shortage. He did not MAKE it up, did he?
I read somewhere that the daily production is lower than the demand, meaning we are using fuel faster than they can make it. That will drive the price up.
Iran has tankers full of oil sitting the the Gulf which no one will buy.
Regardless of HOW the price got this high, we need to deal with the fact that gas prices are NOT going to magically drop.
Get used to the idea, America. Consume less. Trade into a more efficient car/truck. Find out that YES, VIRGINIA, they DO still sell BICYCLES !!! If you are in a Big City, figure out how to use mass transit. I use it sometimes "just because it's there." If you live within 10 miles of your work, FIGURE OUT how to make at least one day a week a non-driving day. Car pool with co-workers. Find out if your company has a Ride Share or Vanpool program. Start worrying less about fuel prices and decide to use less and make it a smaller portion of your budget.
They do come in many sizes and shapes. They have a common thread running through them. They would like the other guy to change his or her lifestyle to supposedly save the planet. I can think of one that in my mind epitomizes the group. AL GORE!!! "Do as I say not as I do" is the hypocrisy shared by most of the high profile "Tree Huggers".
I read somewhere that the daily production is lower than the demand, meaning we are using fuel faster than they can make it. That will drive the price up.
I read just the opposite that we are using 525,000 barrels less per day than last year this time. That production in the World is exceeding the demand. So someone is lying to US. Both stories were posted here today. I guess you make up your own mind who it is. I don't trust our government to tell us the truth about oil.
Motorcycle sales are also booming. Let's all see how many sweaty workers we can get into a city bus. Maybe we can get in the Guiness Book of World records.
Yes I see it also every day in the visitors that come to our store nearly in tears to help us get them out of their vehicles. My wife sees it as well at her store where her employees just cannot come to work some days because they have no money for gas. No mass transit within 50 miles.
On this very thread some months ago there was a discussion of societal disruptions that may accompany too high fuel prices. Would you like to be seen driving a guzzler through a not so well to do area where most can't afford one gallon even to get to work? Imagine the covetous looks that a hybrid driver might get from some others who can't get out of their guzzler. Fuel thefts for need. Fuel thefts for profit. Fuel thefts for drugs.
If SA says I want $140 for oil and Canada says I will sell mine for$135 which are you going to buy?
And why would Canada sell it's oil for $135/barrel when they know that they'll sell all of it without undercutting anyone's price? My position is that in the current oil market there is no need for the producers/sellers to compete. We will eventually hit a price that drives down demand to the point where producers do have to compete but I don't think we've hit that price yet.
You've mentioned OPEC's basket price several times. Yes it is always less than the NYMEX price. Does this basket price include delivery? Shipping oil from the Mid East to North America runs around $5/barrel.
I consider myself to be a conservative tree hugger. Is that possible? I believe that in the long run the US will be better off as a result of these current high oil prices. It may take 10-20 years. So be it. We spent at least that long painting ourselves into this corner so there's no reason it should be easy to get out.
"Positions in the oilfield can pay quite well. The average salary at the end of 2007 was $69,212."
And it's a job that can't be outsourced.
Exactly right, and this is something that the politicians don't get - the US oil industry is a world leader in technology and ability. Can we say that about cars? Electronics? Anything else? But tax it to death, and those jobs will go overseas, and soon.
I consider myself to be a conservative tree hugger.
In reading the last two posts I see two different views of the current price of oil. I see those that cannot afford gas to go to work. I see those that feel it is good that gas prices are high as it will cause societal change. I consider myself more of a compassionate conservative tree planter. I am interested in conserving. I am also interested in my own well being and those I love and are in my circle of friends and family. When I see them hurting I want to help. I don't consider myself driving a Civic as helping them or anyone else except Honda. I happen to believe that the current run up of oil and gas is only helping the wealthy and of course high priced gas does not hurt them in any way.
I feel we are being played the fool by those we have elected to protect US. They are all in bed with big business and that is their main concern. That includes both sides of the aisle and ALL the candidates running for office.
The single mom without enough money for gas to get to work in her 15 year old Mini-van is the one paying the price for the greed in this country and the World. I see nothing good about the current run up of oil except for my own selfish desire to not share the highway with others.
I work at home and have little patience for people knocking on my door trying to sell me something in spite of the No Soliciting sign on my door. Just today I chased off a guy with Oregon plates (40 miles away) selling meat, like I want to support someone from out of state who's using our roads and infrastructure to run a biz out of his truck without a peddler's license (I checked) and most likely no sales tax id. Meanwhile my friendly neighborhood butcher is paying sales and income and property taxes not to mention rent and having to compete with these slime balls. The sheriff's office (yeah, I call and complain) do nothing.
So ... bright side - $4 a gallon gas may limit some of these door to door yahoos. :shades:
That is pretty bold. I do see them sitting along the road selling meat and fish. I always wonder who would take the risk not knowing the origin. I will stick with my local grocer. It just brought back memories of my childhood. I started selling things to my neighbors when I was 5 years old. Religious plaques that would glow in the dark. I sold magazine subscriptions in Jr High School during the winter when I was not mowing lawns. Back then no one had NO SOLICITORS signs. It was a much friendlier atmosphere than today. Now all we see are Jehovah Witness and Mormons with the occasional magazine scam. In town they get people selling everything door to door. Ah the country is SOOO much nicer than the city. Well worth the extra gas at any price.
Why did the oil futures markets trade so low for years ? Maybe because speculators made up less than 5% of the market in oil at that time.Todays markets have many more speculators not only fed by Wall St and hedge fund money, but pensions and large investment funds such as Calpers, Tia-Cref, Harvard endowment fund, Yale endowment fund etc.And while years of poor economic policy have led to the weak dollar and demand for hard assets, 100% increase in a year is ahead of the curve. So while California real estate, Ny and Fl real estate continued to bid higher and higher from lack of standards and silly interest rates. They did develop a glut and the bubble was burst. Real estate has to go higher they cried. Oil has to go up I hear many cry. $150 , $200 do I hear $500? Going once... And it will for a while. Darn if those bubbles don't turn ugly. All bubbles need the mind set or paradigm.
>I happen to believe that the current run up of oil and gas is only helping the wealthy and of course high priced gas does not hurt them in any way.
While I understand your feeling, I suggest to consider the gasoline price in Europe where people have a lower standard of living than in the US. The Gallon price is more than twice the US price and people adapt pretty much.
It is the responsibility of the US govt to protect their citizens from the effects of oil price increase, and I don't see any other mean than switching to alternative sources of power and transport modes.
This switch will definitely be painful. Somehow I would consider it as a war where US is defending its way of life, with many innocent casualties. This time, instead of sending troops or designating scapegoats, I think the solution is more about investment (education, R&D and infrastructure)
an increase tax on oil is painful indeed, but I don't see many more efficient ways to both change behaviours and raise funds towards victory.
Obama will increase the tax on oil so that we buy less gas....did I read that correctly? This is supposed to help our economy? Could you please provide your source, or a link please...
What I'm starting to see is that a lot of low-wage workers are soon going to consider it not worth it coming to their jobs. I have a second job I've been working part-time for the last 15 years. I do physical inventory at retail stores and the job requires travel all over the Philadelphia tri-state region. Tonight I'm going to a store that is 50 miles away. I'm not happy but I can afford it. However, my co-workers are unhappy and they can't afford it. Many refuse to even show up for places this far away and even the threat of termination is no deterrent from being a no-show. Some of us are combatting fuel prices by car-pooling, but many of us live far apart from each other. I'll be meeting up with a few people later.
What I'm starting to see is that a lot of low-wage workers are soon going to consider it not worth it coming to their jobs. I have a second job I've been working part-time for the last 15 years. I do physical inventory at retail stores and the job requires travel all over the Philadelphia tri-state region. Tonight I'm going to a store that is 50 miles away. I'm not happy but I can afford it. However, my co-workers are unhappy and they can't afford it. Many refuse to even show up for places this far away and even the threat of termination is no deterrent from being a no-show. Some of us are combatting fuel prices by car-pooling, but many of us live far apart from each other. I'll be meeting up with a few people later.
And the trickle down from this is potentially, higher prices for consumers. If that retailer has to increase costs, either by paying folks more in direct salary, or by reimbursing travel costs, or in the long term, by investing in technology to make "can counting" obsolete, the retailer is going to pass those costs on.
OPEC says there is a glut right now. Some are going to cut production.
"Where is it? The US supplies are below their average level for this time of year."
The OPEC comments refer to world wide supplies not just the U.S.. Part of the issue is due to each refinery needing to determine if a particular crude oil feedstock is compatible to their system in terms of yield, quality, production, and environmental issues. There is also the issue of transportation. How do you get KSA crude oil to a midwest refinery and at what cost?
KSA crude is not always the best. Refineries apparently do not want the extra crude oil that KSA is producing. It is not the right type. This will be a problem until KSA gets some big refineries of their own up and running in the next few years.
I recommend the following article if you want to get up to speed on some of the issues.
"But tax it to death, and those jobs will go overseas, and soon. "
Taxes are not the big issue with jobs going overseas. Wages are the driving force. The U.S. is facing fierce competition from people in other countries. They are becoming more educated, better workers and willing to do it for less than someone in the United States.
People are complaining about the pain at the pump. The answer is to come to ND and get a job driving a truck. These folks are making $20 to $25 an hour, more with overtime. These jobs do not take a lot of skill.
Folks down in Holmes County, Miss. or Wilcox County, Ala., where gasoline prices hit the hardest, need to drag their butt up to where the jobs are and quit complaining. :mad:
As you can see, I have little sympathy for doorknobs that bought a gas guzzler (anything that gets less than 30 mpg) and now complain about the price of gasoline.
"Taxes are not the big issue with jobs going overseas. Wages are the driving force. The U.S. is facing fierce competition from people in other countries. "
Agreed, but I'm talking about taxes that discourage development. Many of the current drilling booms are developing high-cost targets. Discourage those developments, the development $$ will dry up.
>Obama will increase the tax on oil so that we buy less gas....did I read that correctly?
Sorry, I was just replying to gagrice regarding his thoughs. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss US politics in detail and I did not intend to do so.
While I understand your feeling, I suggest to consider the gasoline price in Europe where people have a lower standard of living than in the US.
I have always wondered about the over taxation in the EU. Why the people have not sharpened their guillotines. Then I figured they just like cake. The US is way over taxed. Europe has gone to the extreme. It will bite them in the back side soon. Who would vacation over there with the horrible prices? I would love to see some of the EU. I would not spend the money they get for food, transportation, hotels etc. I am too conservative. I want to see the Palace of Versailles, I type it into Google. Not the same as being there, but it is free and does not take any gas. Save the planet, skip that trip to the EU.
Comments
I think that for many people there is no tightness in the market as long as there are no gas lines, or rationing.
Well, some agreements are being signed. Significant production increases are years away, and, if no improvement in security is seen, will be limited by constant pipeline/facility sabotage. This is occurring today in Nigeria, with strikes and facility takeovers keeping production and development well below capacity.
I know there are a few here that do not believe in conspiracies. And it is hard to believe it can happen in this day and age of information. But it does.
Man torches BMW to protest gas prices (CNN)
Where is it? The US supplies are below their average level for this time of year. The Saudis have said they will increase production. I suspect they are as knowledgeable as anyone regarding the supply of oil on the market. Libya has said that it will reduce production. I'll believe that when I see it. I think that statement was politically motivated to show support for Iran. Oil traders/speculators have no desire to see 1,000 barrels of oil delivered to their doorsteps. They absolutely must sell this contract to an end user. These end users are the ones that are actually holding supply. Now if what they are holding represented a glut they'd have no desire to buy oil contracts at inflated prices. These speculators would become desperate to sell and the price would collapse. That's not happening.
We are merely pawns in their games.
The typical poster on Edmunds may be a pawn but there are a lot of big industries with influence in Washington that are being badly hurt by these high oil prices. The auto and airline industry to name a couple. If the leaders in these industries thought the market was being manipulated I've got to believe they'd be crying foul and someone would be listening. It seems to me the only person claiming manipulation or some conspiracy is the average Joe struggling to buy gas. While a sympathetic figure I'm not sure what would give him any unique insight into what's driving the oil market.
And the ridiculous German nanny-state is always around the corner, prioving how little has changed in 63 years. He should have torched Merkel's chariot or aimed at some of the EU coward cronies.
There are others in the media that also concur on market manipulation. For those that do not believe in Conspiracies need to read the convictions on key Enron players.
Enron Chiefs Guilty of Fraud and Conspiracy
HOUSTON, May 25 — Kenneth L. Lay and Jeffrey K. Skilling, the chief executives who guided Enron through its spectacular rise and even more stunning fall, were found guilty today of fraud and conspiracy. They are among the most prominent corporate leaders to emerge from a wave of scandals that marked the get-rich-quick excesses and management failures of the 1990's.
So soon we forget. That cost US all money.. Here from Business Week
High Oil Prices: It's All Speculation
The Administration says oil's runup is due to shortages, but the evidence points to manipulation
by Ed Wallace
Today, while energy prices are crushing American families, I think we'd all benefit by reflecting on what happened with energy in 2001. Seven years ago, Enron was fleecing California, extorting its people for electricity to the tune of billions of dollars. As is true today, some voices in the Administration claimed that supply shortages, not manipulation, formed the core of California's soaring electricity prices. Yet, now that we know the whole story of Enron's criminal manipulations, many menbers of the media have forgotten how in 2001 the White House deflected any blame for California's suddenly stratospheric electrical costs away from their Houston friends.
Likewise, our Energy Secretary has a real problem discussing issues with facts. Like a broken record, he continues to maintain that in no way has speculation had anything to do with today's high oil prices. No, to hear Sam Bodman tell it, they are now and always have been caused by too many buyers chasing too few barrels of oil. But, while that might have been true in 2004, things have changed. And so I give you just one week of news from the oil market. To be more exact, it's the oil news from the seven days preceding our Energy Secretary's comments about supply and demand.
It Was Printed in English
"[U.S.] demand for oil over the first five months of the year was off 2.5%* from last year." —American Petroleum Institute, June 18, 2008, Associated Press Online (*Translation: We are using approximately 525,000 fewer barrels of oil per day.)
"Iran has 15 [oil] supertankers idling in the Persian Gulf capable of storing more than 30 million barrels of crude." —Bloomberg, June 16, 2008
"Thunder Horse started pumping from a single well on Saturday and on schedule to have the field online by yearend. Thunder Horse alone will increase overall U.S. oil and gas production by 3.6%. Add British Petroleum's Atlantis platform that started up last year, and the boost grows to 6.4%." —Houston Chronicle, June 16, 2008
There is more if you want to read on:
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/jun2008/bw20080626_022098.htm?chan- =rss_topEmailedStories_ssi_5
Just because Ken Lay and a couple of his rotten criminal buddies "conspired" within ONE SINGLE US COMPANY IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY and were convicted of a conspiracy DOES NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM have anything to say about the rampantness or frequency or number of corporate conspiracies.
Enron does not prove anything about conspiracies.
In fact, that case should show us all how DANGEROUS it is to ATTEMPT to perform such a heinous act, and people with common sense know better than to even attempt such a thing.
And in such a widely noticed market like the WORLD OIL SUPPLY? Are you frickin kiddin? No one in their right mind would even ATTEMPT such a thing and hope to get away with anything like that.
Their is no broad conspiracy driving up oil prices. If there was, like I said earlier (don't ignore it this time) oil prices would be $5,000 a barrel and not $150.
How many do you suppose they could sell at $5000 per barrel. Those in the know, know how much we will pay.. And of course all good liberals and tree huggers want the price of gas to stay high. It fits the agenda of eliminating personal automotive transportation.
So we disagree once again.
In spite of your liking huge capital letters. That does not make a statement correct or even more believable. Your take on human nature I find interesting. People will always try to beat the system. Most do not believe they will get caught. Or do you think Skillings and Lay were just one time idiots that were able to scam Billions from innocent people. How can someone be tried for CONSPIRACY if none exists?
Probably the only reason they nailed the Enron crowd is most the the CONSPIRACY was right under the nose or our justice department. How do you propose we verify the dealings of say the Quantum fund? Do you have any idea how much they are involved in Oil futures?
Soros speculates in world financial markets through his secret offshore company, Quantum Fund N.V., a wholly private investment fund called a "hedge fund." ( Hedge funds have been identified by international police agencies as the fastest-growing outlet for illegal money laundering today.) ... Soros's Quantum Fund is registered in Curacao, Netherlands Antilles, the Caribbean tax haven - so he avoids paying taxes, and also hides the nature of his investors, and what he does with their money. By moving his legal headquarters to Curacao. Soros was able to avoid the kind of U.S. government supervision of his financial activities, that any U.S.-based investment fund must agree to, in order to operate. The Netherland Antilles, a possession of the Kingdom of Holland, has repeatedly been cited by the International Task Force on Money Laundering of the OECD as one of the world's most important centers for laundering the illegal proceeds of the Latin American cocaine and other drug traffic.
Soros has also taken care that none of the 99 individual investors who form his various funds, is an American national. By U.S. securities law, a hedge fund is limited to no more than 99 investors of highly wealthy individuals, so-called "sophisticated investors." By structuring his investment company as an offshore hedge fund, Soros avoids public scrutiny. Soros himself is not even on the board of Quantum Fund. Instead, for legal reasons, he serves as official "Investment Advisor" to Quantum Fund N.V. through his company, Soros Fund Management, of 888 Seventh Avenue, New York City. If any demand be made of Soros to reveal the details of Quantum Fund, he can claim he is "merely its investment adviser."
... According to knowledgeable U.S. and European investigators, Soros is part of a circle which includes Marc Rich of Zug, Switzerland and Tel Aviv, the indicted metals and commodity speculator and fugitive; Shaul Eisenberg, the secretive Israeli arms and commodities dealer; and "Dirty Rafi" Eytan - both linked to the financial side of the Israeli Mossad, and to the family of Jacob Lord Rothschild.
An Arizona Bike Law Blog doesn't specifically say that riding on the sidewalk is prohibited. There are local laws in various cities that do prohibit this. Tucson is one of them. See City of Tucson Bicycle Laws. However, the blog does point out that 72% of bike-motor vehicle collisions involved a cyclist who was on or had just left the sidewalk.
I think I'll stick to the safer roads, especially when pedaling across Arizona.
I have seen and waved at Tempe and Phoenix police many times while on a sidewalk on my bike.
My educated conclusion: If it's illegal, it is not enforced.
The state itself does not have restrictions on sidewalk bike riding. Municipalities might. Tucson prohibits it.
Nothing in the Phoenix city code about bikes on the sidewalk specifically. Still checking Tempe.......
Mythbusters did a test on those things and also a spray that you apply to your plate that supposedly makes it invisible to the camera. None of the devices worked.
Well on a sidewalk, when you come to a crosswalk, you're supposed to stop, get off your bike and walk it across the street. So in theory, a crosswalk shouldn't pose any more of a threat to a bicyclist than it would to a pedestrian.
The main issue I have with bikes on sidewalks is their riders often have no regard for walkers. And then when they come to a crosswalk, they'll just blast right through it and expect traffic to magically just stop for them. I almost took out two bikers a couple years ago in DC because of this. I was waiting to make a left turn on green, and they came up behind me, in the street. Well, just as I had a break in traffic to make my left turn, they cut up onto that sidewalk without even slowing, and started to blast full-speed across that crosswalk. They came damned close to smacking into the side of my car. I'm sure that would've been messy.
How does something like that work, anyway, if a bicyclist gets into an accident with a car and is at fault? It's not like they have insurance that's going to pay up. I guess it would be covered under the comprehensive policy on my insurance, and then I'd just have to take the biker to court to get my deductible back? Doesn't seem fair, to put a motorist through that kind of crap. Maybe they should start making bicyclists have insurance? Or, if you have car insurance, just have it automatically cover you if you're on a bike?
I've heard the argument that the Saudis are heavily invested outside their country and do not want the world economy to tank. Well by charging $140/barrel as opposed to $40/barrel they are generating an extra $1 billion a day. I've got to believe their foreign investments pale in comparison to that revenue.
There were actually quite a few economists that could be categorized as "conservative" that advocated higher fuel taxes before the market made the issue somewhat moot. I know that when gas was less than $2/gallon Alan Greenspan endorsed higher fuel taxes. Alan Greenspan is someone that very much believed in the Ayn Rand, Objectivism philosophy. It doesn't get more conservative than that.
What makes a person a "tree hugger". If you like clean air are you a tree hugger? If you like beaches that aren't tarnished by oil spills are you a tree hugger? It always makes for a compelling argument to categorize someone by calling them a name but I'd be curious to find out exactly what the definition of a tree hugger is.
Also, a lot of these liberal, tree huggers are big advocates of hybrids, plug-in hybrids and EVs. Isn't this still personal automotive transportation?
What a biker loses if they DO NOT walk it across a crosswalk is the protections guaranteed to a pedestrian. You are not a pedestrian when you are RIDING YOUR BIKE through a pedestrian crosswalk.
Crosswalks are when I feel the most danger as a sidewalk biker. I could alleviate it some if I stopped and walked across, but I have about 35 side streets and/or crosswalks to cross in my 6.5 mile commute by bike. If I stopped and walked EVERY one of those, it would add at LEAST 10 more minutes to my commute. It's just too much of a pain !!! I'll take my risks instead and be attentive to the cars which might hit me. I also have a 130 decibel air horn on my bike which I use to get driver's attention when I have to !!
Most car insurance companies will cover any damage you cause another car even if it is not in your vehicle. Or your homeowner's policy will cover it.
For people who have no car or home insurance, and own only a bike, then I guess they would be personally held responsible for paying any damage.
Ha Ha Ha Ha....That was a good one, you must write jokes for a comedian.
Seriously, they are going to give tax breaks to the companies..
N.D. energy goals: More oil, wind power, tax breaks
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2008/06/27/news/state/158859.txt
Also, ND is not in the same league as Alaska when it comes to oil production, as I suspect you are aware. Alaska peaked at 2 million barrels a day, we just reached 150,000. Are populations are similar, so there is less money for ND residents compared to Alaska.
"All those out of work UAW guys should be headed over to get a good job. "
Maybe they don't like the weather.
"Positions in the oilfield can pay quite well. The average salary at the end of 2007 was $69,212." http://www.jobsnd.com/jsnd/jobsnd/news/news.detail.html?newsId=11541&locationId=- 14
Another plus, drugs are required during the hiring process and given out randomly on the job.
And it's a job that can't be outsourced.
If there is a shortage that would be the case. I have not seen any lines or empty pumps at ANY station. If every gas station in the USA has gas, the demand IS being met. So our Energy Secretary is saying there is a shortage. Where is the shortage at? Some of the oil producers are claiming there is plenty and may have to cut production. If there is any oil tanker sitting in the harbor with no place to put their oil we are in a glut. If you look at the OPEC website you will see the basket price is less than the market price. That means oil is actually being sold for less than the market price.
Now to your original statement. If SA says I want $140 for oil and Canada says I will sell mine for$135 which are you going to buy? Just so they do not have a tanker sitting in the Long Beach Harbor SA says I'll go you one better and sell you oil for $130 a barrel. Point being in a fair market that is the way it should work. I am not convinced as of today we are playing in a fair market. Someone is lying to US. Either our Energy Secretary that says we have a shortage that causes this high price or the OPEC people that say there is plenty and it is all speculation. As of yesterday OPEC was selling their oil at $130.77 per barrel.
I read somewhere that the daily production is lower than the demand, meaning we are using fuel faster than they can make it. That will drive the price up.
Iran has tankers full of oil sitting the the Gulf which no one will buy.
Regardless of HOW the price got this high, we need to deal with the fact that gas prices are NOT going to magically drop.
Get used to the idea, America.
Consume less.
Trade into a more efficient car/truck.
Find out that YES, VIRGINIA, they DO still sell BICYCLES !!!
If you are in a Big City, figure out how to use mass transit. I use it sometimes "just because it's there."
If you live within 10 miles of your work, FIGURE OUT how to make at least one day a week a non-driving day.
Car pool with co-workers.
Find out if your company has a Ride Share or Vanpool program.
Start worrying less about fuel prices and decide to use less and make it a smaller portion of your budget.
They do come in many sizes and shapes. They have a common thread running through them. They would like the other guy to change his or her lifestyle to supposedly save the planet. I can think of one that in my mind epitomizes the group. AL GORE!!! "Do as I say not as I do" is the hypocrisy shared by most of the high profile "Tree Huggers".
I read just the opposite that we are using 525,000 barrels less per day than last year this time. That production in the World is exceeding the demand. So someone is lying to US. Both stories were posted here today. I guess you make up your own mind who it is. I don't trust our government to tell us the truth about oil.
Motorcycle sales are also booming.
Let's all see how many sweaty workers we can get into a city bus. Maybe we can get in the Guiness Book of World records.
On this very thread some months ago there was a discussion of societal disruptions that may accompany too high fuel prices.
Would you like to be seen driving a guzzler through a not so well to do area where most can't afford one gallon even to get to work?
Imagine the covetous looks that a hybrid driver might get from some others who can't get out of their guzzler.
Fuel thefts for need. Fuel thefts for profit. Fuel thefts for drugs.
And why would Canada sell it's oil for $135/barrel when they know that they'll sell all of it without undercutting anyone's price? My position is that in the current oil market there is no need for the producers/sellers to compete. We will eventually hit a price that drives down demand to the point where producers do have to compete but I don't think we've hit that price yet.
You've mentioned OPEC's basket price several times. Yes it is always less than the NYMEX price. Does this basket price include delivery? Shipping oil from the Mid East to North America runs around $5/barrel.
I consider myself to be a conservative tree hugger. Is that possible? I believe that in the long run the US will be better off as a result of these current high oil prices. It may take 10-20 years. So be it. We spent at least that long painting ourselves into this corner so there's no reason it should be easy to get out.
And it's a job that can't be outsourced.
Exactly right, and this is something that the politicians don't get - the US oil industry is a world leader in technology and ability. Can we say that about cars? Electronics? Anything else? But tax it to death, and those jobs will go overseas, and soon.
In reading the last two posts I see two different views of the current price of oil. I see those that cannot afford gas to go to work. I see those that feel it is good that gas prices are high as it will cause societal change. I consider myself more of a compassionate conservative tree planter. I am interested in conserving. I am also interested in my own well being and those I love and are in my circle of friends and family. When I see them hurting I want to help. I don't consider myself driving a Civic as helping them or anyone else except Honda. I happen to believe that the current run up of oil and gas is only helping the wealthy and of course high priced gas does not hurt them in any way.
I feel we are being played the fool by those we have elected to protect US. They are all in bed with big business and that is their main concern. That includes both sides of the aisle and ALL the candidates running for office.
The single mom without enough money for gas to get to work in her 15 year old Mini-van is the one paying the price for the greed in this country and the World. I see nothing good about the current run up of oil except for my own selfish desire to not share the highway with others.
So ... bright side - $4 a gallon gas may limit some of these door to door yahoos. :shades:
They did develop a glut and the bubble was burst. Real estate has to go higher they cried. Oil has to go up I hear many cry. $150 , $200 do I hear $500? Going once...
And it will for a while. Darn if those bubbles don't turn ugly. All bubbles need the mind set or paradigm.
While I understand your feeling, I suggest to consider the gasoline price in Europe where people have a lower standard of living than in the US. The Gallon price is more than twice the US price and people adapt pretty much.
It is the responsibility of the US govt to protect their citizens from the effects of oil price increase, and I don't see any other mean than switching to alternative sources of power and transport modes.
This switch will definitely be painful. Somehow I would consider it as a war where US is defending its way of life, with many innocent casualties.
This time, instead of sending troops or designating scapegoats, I think the solution is more about investment (education, R&D and infrastructure)
an increase tax on oil is painful indeed, but I don't see many more efficient ways to both change behaviours and raise funds towards victory.
And the trickle down from this is potentially, higher prices for consumers. If that retailer has to increase costs, either by paying folks more in direct salary, or by reimbursing travel costs, or in the long term, by investing in technology to make "can counting" obsolete, the retailer is going to pass those costs on.
"Where is it? The US supplies are below their average level for this time of year."
The OPEC comments refer to world wide supplies not just the U.S.. Part of the issue is due to each refinery needing to determine if a particular crude oil feedstock is compatible to their system in terms of yield, quality, production, and environmental issues. There is also the issue of transportation. How do you get KSA crude oil to a midwest refinery and at what cost?
KSA crude is not always the best. Refineries apparently do not want the extra crude oil that KSA is producing. It is not the right type. This will be a problem until KSA gets some big refineries of their own up and running in the next few years.
I recommend the following article if you want to get up to speed on some of the issues.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4038#more
Taxes are not the big issue with jobs going overseas. Wages are the driving force. The U.S. is facing fierce competition from people in other countries. They are becoming more educated, better workers and willing to do it for less than someone in the United States.
People are complaining about the pain at the pump. The answer is to come to ND and get a job driving a truck. These folks are making $20 to $25 an hour, more with overtime. These jobs do not take a lot of skill.
Folks down in Holmes County, Miss. or Wilcox County, Ala., where gasoline prices hit the hardest, need to drag their butt up to where the jobs are and quit complaining. :mad:
As you can see, I have little sympathy for doorknobs that bought a gas guzzler (anything that gets less than 30 mpg) and now complain about the price of gasoline.
Old mariner's poem (Inwards 1898).
June -- too soon.
July -- stand by.
August -- look out you must.
September -- remember.
October -- all over.
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/extremes/1999/august/extremes0899.html
Never heard that one before.
Agreed, but I'm talking about taxes that discourage development. Many of the current drilling booms are developing high-cost targets. Discourage those developments, the development $$ will dry up.
Sorry, I was just replying to gagrice regarding his thoughs. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss US politics in detail and I did not intend to do so.
Thank you,
You put my thoughts in much simpler words.
I have always wondered about the over taxation in the EU. Why the people have not sharpened their guillotines. Then I figured they just like cake. The US is way over taxed. Europe has gone to the extreme. It will bite them in the back side soon. Who would vacation over there with the horrible prices? I would love to see some of the EU. I would not spend the money they get for food, transportation, hotels etc. I am too conservative. I want to see the Palace of Versailles, I type it into Google. Not the same as being there, but it is free and does not take any gas. Save the planet, skip that trip to the EU.