Tires

obyone

quick question. What's the difference between the Micheling LT4 that sears sells and the LTX (M/S) that can be bought through independent dealers?
Some are saying belts, tread, everything the same so must be same tire labeled differently especially for sears...thanks

tsprague

I need replacement tires for my 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan SE. They came with Michelins. I'm a hopeless tire buyer. help

carnut30

If you liked the Michelins it came with, why not buy them again? I say the Michelin X-ONE is perfect for a Caravan, which is a bit of a tire killer. kauffman@hslc.org

I tried Pirelli P4000 (H-rated), which were not bad, and Bridgestone Turanza H on our 1990 Voyager. Turanza H were fine to start but lost their wet traction when only 1/3 worn due to the dual-tread compound scam. Pirelli, Michelin and Yokohama do not practice this scam.

carnut30

Yes, there are other factors in the speed ratings. The mfgrs. assume that you will want more traction and more high-speed stability on cornering with the higher speed rated tires. So the trade-off is quicker tread wear and a harder ride as you go up in the speed ratings. This is why, with a given brand and tire model, a S-rated is often warranted for 80,000 miles, a T-rated for 60,000 miles, an H-rated for 45,000 miles, a V-rated for 35,000 miles and so on.
My personal preference is not to go below T, since there are such good ones (Yokohama Avid T-4 and Michelin X-ONE) or above V (where the Yokohama AVS-dB is unusually good-riding for a V).
kauffman@hslc.org

tsprague

Thanks, I've been reading info about them in the tirerack. I haven't got quite 50,000 miles out of them. The car came with P21565R15. I'm going to start pricing them this weekend.

silvercoupe

How do you think the Yokohama Avid T-4 would perform on my 91 Honda Accord? This car isn't driven a lot, or I would put Michelin X-One's on it. The Avid T-4 is pretty inexpensive at Tirerack.com.

heng

It involves lawyers.

Say if a car allows 125 mph and then the onboard speed governor kicks in. If the manufacturer put tires that are speed rated to only to 110 mph and the idiot (polite term) then injures or kills himself or herself by driving off a cliff, then the car manufacturer can be sued because they put incompatible tires on the car which will be proven by the lawyers to have caused the demise of the said idiot.

This called product liability.

butch11

Thank you Heng, now I know why speed ratings are such an obtuse subject.

Willy Shakespear had it right with regard to lawyers.

joe166

Yes, LAWYERS may well be the answer, but maybe you should be more specific and say Plaintiffs lawyers. Having said that, there is some (substantial) benefit to having a system where people are responsible for their actions. In some countries there is no reason to "fix" things as there are no consequences for failure to do so, but then again there should be responsibility for your own actions in continuing on a path of self destruction and the law seems to be biased in favor of really dumb or really careless people.

This could certainly be better debated in a more specific topic, but it is clearly the reason that many tire stores will not, regardless of what you ask for, sell you any tire that has a "lower" speed rating than the one which came with your car. No matter what warning you might give, the survivors of the driver and his passengers would certainly argue that the store should not have given in and that they were negligent in not "convincing" them to get the higher speed rating. So, when you try to get your tire store to sell you what you want, as opposed to what came from the factory, either size wise or rating wise, understand they are not being stubborn just for the fun of it, but are probably just following the orders of their law department.

carnut30

...available in the Michelin X-ONE. It is only a little taller and will probably make your speedometer accurate. Hope you will forgive this response, since I am not Tireguy.

carnut30

...for your Honda Accord. They feel much like Michelin X-ONEs and cost much less. If you want to go still cheaper there is the Pirelli P400, but this does not feel as good or last as long and the Avid T4.

ruski

This product seems to be quite interesting. I saw
it for the first time on the MotorWeek TV show.
Now
there are a few ads on TV here and there. I have
found this link to the company that markets it:
http://www.imiproducts.com/imi_htmlcode/imi_equa/imi_equa.html

Is it as good as advertised?

tsprague

I called around for pricing for the Michelin X-ones for my 97 grand caravan. I was told this tire has no mileage warranty......Is this place pulling my leg or what? I know my van is known to eat tires, but I can't imagine a tire without a warranty......What do you "tire" guys think?

butch11

Check out www.tirerack.com for prices and you can also send them a email asking about the warranty. If you drive at speed in rain or snow, I would strongly suggest x-one's. I have got 35K on a set and there appears to be no wear. I am very wary of ever trying to get anyone to honor any kind of a wear warranty.

My next set of tires will be x-one's-i bought this set due to the recommendation of the people in the store-they had them on their vehicles. Drove for about 5 miles and went back and told the tire store guys-hey for once a recomendation paned out better than advertised. Can't beat the wet/snow traction and crisp handling/tracking on corners. Once running at 70 on full cover I put the car into a slide on purpose-no traffic good visibility-got it out of the slide very easily because of the excellent traction of these tires. The other traffic-even the trucks was staying below 60. ALso no cupping on the back tires even though I ran them for 20K before rotating.

Ever once in a while a great product comes along-the x-one's are just that. I sell medical systems-only connection with tires is driving.

carnut30

...of putting 35,000 miles of use on tires with no wear apparent gives him the level of credibility of the 100 mpg carburetor guys of old.

ejy

the thing the 100mpg 'guys of old' didn't know is their buddies added a gallon of gas to their tank every day at lunch break.

I once knew a guy who really did get 110mpg with his VW beetle, so he thought...

Back to tires...

silvercoupe

The X-One's on my wife's 97 Accord have 12,000 miles on them and have worn 1/32" evenly. At that rate they should easily last 80,000 miles.

tireguy

There is absolutely no difference in the construction of the tire. There is a slight difference in the tread, and the LTX M/S seems to be a bit more popular than the others. Wal Mart sells its clone, and the wholesalers (Sam's, BJ's) get the X Radial LT. They are all of identical construction and quality, with the same mileage warranty (when offered). The LTX M/S has a slightly higher void pattern and more sipes than the others, giving it better wet traction. It usually costs more, however. And the price difference (often 20-40%) makes it hardly a worthwhile choice over the others. The LTX A/T is also a member of this family, with a much more aggressive tread (it's my favorite).
But they're all outstanding tires.
----Chris

tireguy

The X-One is by far the greatest thing that can happen to your Caravan. You probably have the XW4 now. If you liked that model, you should fall hopelessly in love with the X-One, which is two levels higher in the Michelin heirarchy. The 215/65R15 X-One will actually have a wider contact patch than the OE tires in the same size. You can expect improvements in every aspect of handling by installing these tires. They are also sold by wholesale clubs under the secret code name X-Radial Plus. The tires are identical to the X-One. They usually sell for $90 in your size. These tires used to carry a six year unlimited warranty (3 yrs free replacement, 3 pro-rated), which was absolutely stupid. Yes, the tires are the longest lasting tires you can buy, but anyone can wear out their tires in 3 years if it means they get a new set, free of charge.
--Chris

tireguy

Yes, I agree that the Maliby is not Pilot material. I wouldn't even suggest the MXV4 for it. You don't need an H-rated tire, and the MXV4 only carries a 40K mile warranty. If I had your car, I would install a set of X-One/X-Radial Plus in a 205/65R15 (Ford Taurus size). THE SIZE is 10mm less wide than the 215/60R15, but the same diameter. Michelin's premium touring tires generally run wide. The difference between the 215 Firestone and the 205 X-One will be unnoticable.
The MXV4s would drive great on your car, but you wouldn't realize the benefits of these higher end tires. But you would notice the difference when you hit the 40K mile mark and it's already time to drop another 5 bills.
You're glad you dumped the Wilderness ATs? Why? If you had waited, you could have had Firestone pay for your next set of tires. Last I heard from my old boys at Sam's, they were allowing customers exchanging Firestones to drive off on the tires of their choice, completely Firestone's treat. Most of them exchanged their $80 Wilderness ATs for $110 Michelins. Not a bad deal. I can't believe how many people are still driving on those tires--and wore out! You'd think if you knew your tires were wearing thin, and you'd been dreading the impending tire purchase on the horizon, a recall would be a miracle. I don't understand how one could be so oblivious to their environment not to know the situation with those tires. Even my college homecoming queen fiance notices when someone is driving on Firestone truck tires. She yells at me when I walk up to complete strangers in the parking lot and politely remind them that their tires have been recalled and can be replaced for free at just about any tire shop in the country. She gets so embarrassed (for what reason I do not know). It's tough being engaged to the Tireguy. I'm out of control.
---Chris

obyone

thanks for the response. Hope you don't mind, I'm going to post your response in the Yukon topic cause they had a debate on the worth of the tires made by Michelin and sold by Sears...thanks again.

tsprague

Thanks a bunch for your responses. Chris, I am going to check Sam's and see what they have. I had one service area want to offer me Kelly Springfield tires, because he couldn't get the x-one's. Sear's wanted $137.99 per tire. yikes!!So I am looking forward to getting the right tires for my car. I forgot about my membership to Sam's. IS the x-radial plus a Michelin tire or is it a Sam's generic type tire? Also, what do you guys think about the balancing and front end alignments these places push all the time? They always want to balance my tires everytime they rotate and also push for the front end alignment. I only have 46000 miles on my car. I can see getting new tires balanced, but every rotation.....

tsprague

Bretfraz, sorry call me tire hopeless. I always thought they were trying to sell me something that I didn't need. It's hard to trust repair men, especially being a women. Sam's is offering to put all 4 tires on (88,000 warranty)with balancing and mounting, smile and handshake for $460. But I have to pay for them and then he has to order them. I may still check around town. Thanks for the info.

jeffmust2

As a new lurker on this board, I've noticed the high regard for Michelin's X-One or its twins at Costco-Sams-WalMart.

The 225x60x16 Goodyear Eagle GAs on my '95 LS400 are poor handling tires and they're getting replaced soon -but I noticed from Tire Rack that the X-One is only T-rated -- what's the next best Michlin model without surpassing the LS suspension's capabilities? Pilot XGT-V4s?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Jeff M

tapd

Tireguy obviously sells Michelin. But, tireguy, when you talk about Bridgestone and Firestones problem with the Wild. AT and the ATXII, maybe you should give these people more insight to the problem. Do you know Ford Explorers have rolled over with Michelins? Is it the tire or vehicle? Is this fueled by the media and an upcoming election? Firestone had almost all of the OE position for 10 years? HMMM, no wonder it is mostly FS on rolling Explorers.
I feel sorry for all the people with new non-Firestone tires on there Explorers. No tire is bullet proof (run flat maybe). Some new tires will blow out and Explorers will roll. A false sense of security.

joe166

How is your hypothesis served by the fact that the incidents on the Explorers with Goodyear tires are so markedly different (lower) than those with Firestones? I happen to have Firestones on my present car and I am not rushing to replace them, but I am keeping an eye on the pressure and I just think there is too much of a coincidence for there not to be a problem with at least some of their tires. Since my cargo is so precious (me), I will err on the side of caution by replacing my Firestones when they wear out with another brand, probably Michelin as I have had good experiences with them.

mazman1

I sort of agree with both you guys. I have owned two explorers, one a 94 with the Firestone 15" Radial ATX and a 2000 with 16" Wilderness AT's.

I have modified my vehicles with Bilstein shocks, and the ride improves dramaticaly.

Remember that Ford takes competitive bids for all of the parts on their cars, and the lowest bidder wins the contract for the seat belts, wheel rims, brake pads, etc.. do you see where I am going here. It's probably a combination of a lot of marginal parts on the vehicle that together contribute to accidents and subsequent loss of control rollovers.

I recall from high school drivers ed that it takes 3 or more factors to cause an accident (for example, equipment, weather, and a distraction). Well, the low inflation 26 psi or less on C heat rated Firestone tires (A is best, B is on most SUV's), coupled with marginal suspension and a high center of gravity... leads to accidents. The Goodyear tires put on Explorers at the factory in 1996 and 97 take out one factor. The other factors still remain.

rstokc

I can't get a straight answer from my Dodge dealer. I want to know what the recommended tire pressure is for my 2000 Durango 4X4. It has the Goodyear Wrangler 31x10.5R15 OWL tires. On my door panel, it shows the proper pressure for P235x75R15 tires as 36 PSI front and 41 PSI back. Problem is, those aren't the tires mine came with. Dealership garage didn't know jack. Anyone got these and know?

spokane

Apparently your Goodyear 31x10.5 tires are an aftermarket add-on rather than a Chrysler option. If from Chrysler, the owner's manual and shop manual would list this tire option and the pressure. If these tires were installed by the auto dealer, be insistent that he do whatever necessary to get the information for you. Make him understand that this could be a safety issue and he therefore must provide a reply. In the meantime, you could also call Goodyear's Tech Service, give them a vehicle description as well as load, speed, and type of terrain that you will travel. Good luck.

heng

Had to replace the Goodyear LSs on my Gran Prix with only 23,000 miles on them. I asked a guy at work with the same car what he got out of his tires. He said he never got good tread wear out of any Goodyears he has owned (he is about 60 so he has been around).

He then said he worked at Uniroyal for 9 years (maybe some time ago). But he said they sectioned competitors tires and only Michelin tires had belts that were properly positioned. The other American tires had shifted and mis-positioned belts. It was obvious just looking at the cross sectioned tires! This was a short conversation in the parking lot so there aren't anymore details.

This definitely confirms Tireguy's assertions about Michelin quality.

jeffmust2

Thanks for the replies for my '95 LS400 and Michelin Pilot XGT V4s - I think I'll go for the better handling potential over the Energy's quieter ride. Getting great tire life is not that important to me either.

One final question - any reason to spend the extra $30-40/set and get the Z-rated version of the Pilots - or is it just overkill on a LS?

I should have mentioned I live in Southern California so snow and ice aren't involved. Just fires, floods, earthquakes...but I digress.

mrh3108

I found the discussion on Firestone's problems very intriguing. That said, a tire dealer (non branded) I spoke with said that Firestone had distributed information to its dealers that put most of the problem on the Explorer. He stated that nearly 80% of the blowouts occurred on the right rear (driver's side) tire and that the blowout caused the front right tire to lift as the vehicle veered to the left. Drivers would compensate by turning back to the right which, with the high center of gravity, cause the car to flip as the front left tire made contact with the road. He also stated that Explorers have flipped with other brands, including Goodyears. I agree that the low heat ratings coupled with the low air pressure probably contributed to the high incidence of tire failure which contributed to roll over's. Ford, apparently, recommended a lower air pressure than recommended by Firestone as they knew their vehicle was prone to rollovers and some how believed that lower air pressure reduced the likelihood the vehicle would flip (hoping that the tires would be able to structurally handle the lower pressure).

I can't recall what reason I was given for the high incidence of blowouts of the driver's side rear tire. It may have been from stress from the drive train, but don't quote me.

If you think about it, your vehicle should never flip with a blow out of any kind, even if you are traveling 75 mph. Why do you only hear of the problem on the Explorer and not other SUV's?

I'm convinced that the problem rests in a poor quality tire being stressed out on a vehicle which has a design flaw. Ford would rather you believe it is solely the tire. Firestone is caught between a rock and a hard place. Who really wants to point blame at their largest customer (or bite the hand that feeds them)?????



r

jasabra

I have a '00 4-cyl. Accord that has 195/65R Michelin MXV4 tires on it (max. psi: 44). Honda (on the driver's doorframe) recommends 30 psi, which I find too low (my tires squeal when I start in 1st gear). I've upped the pressure to 34 psi (cold) all around, but I noticed that when hot, the front tire pressure is about 5 psi higher than the rear pressure. I assume this happens on all front wheel drive cars, but I was wondering if that was something to be concerned about (since the front tires would be at a higher psi than the rear). Should I try a slightly lower pressure in the front to compensate? Or am I just being paranoid?

tapd

Go for the Firestone SS20's. First they have a 30 day ride guarantee, if you don't like them your tire dealer will give you full price back towards a set of your choice. Second, 55k warranty, and third, free replacement for defects for 5yrs date of purchase or 6 yrs date of manufacture. I'm sure you will like them.

rstokc

I actually got an e-mail response from DaimlerChrysler. They said that the proper pressure was 30psi for all tires with a light load. Heavy loads should be 35psi front and 41psi rear.

In response to a previous comment about the tires being aftermarket add-ons, the factory sticker for the vehicle (with matching VIN) shows the 31x10.5 tires. The owners manual mentions them but no psi listing. I don't know why the door panel is different.

tireguy

If you're limiting yourself to those choices, go with the BFG Radial T/A. It's designed for muscle cars, sport trucks, sport vans, etc.
Personally, I would just go with an LT235/75R15 LTX M/S or other Michelin all-season truck tire. I don't know what you do in your van. If you try to drive it like a Camaro, then you might as well stick with that ridiculously wide size, but if you're concerned about load-carrying capability and handling stability, you need to go with a light truck tire. The heavier sidewall will more than make up for the reduction in tread width, with the proper pressure.
And on the topic of tire pressures, we had some pretty in depth discussions on the subject in entries past. It would behoove y'all to check them out before asking the same questions we've answered months ago.
Jasabra, you do not adjust your pressure based on the squeal factor. It's all here, my half decade of experience plus all the discoveries of the other inquisitive minds which have perused and added to this forum. All you have to do is read.
--Chris

tireguy

But I will say this, Daimler-Chrysler has no idea what pressure you should put in your Durango's tires because they have no idea how full or how frequently you load it up; they have no idea how aggressively you drive; and they know not whether you drive primarily on a single-lane dirt road with turnouts every 1/4 mile or the I-495 Beltway. If you keep the tires at the manufacturer's recommendations, you'll never realize the last 30% of possible treadwear. You have to experiment.
I have labored over this keyboard by the light of the midnight oil, trying to explain in simple terms, the procedures for one technique I have found to work infallably. I don't think that's a word, but at 4:30a.m. EST, I say it shall be. All you have to do now is take an upward gander and find the post. It's 4:30 am on a Friday night (Saturday morning). I just got in from a serious night of D.C. clubbing, and I just don't have the energy to reiterate it tonight.
----Chris

elminster1

I have a question about which snow tire i should buy, and i do want a winter tire.
Points to consider:
1) Ford Thunderbird V-8 well known "fair weather"
vehicle
2)Price is important i dont want to pay $100+ for goodyear ultragrips
3) live in ohio, moderate snow mostly ... occasional heavy snow from lake erie effect.
4)tires i am considering --Dunlop graspic HS-1
Firestone winterfire, Bridgestone Blizzack WS-50
Mich. Arctic alpin, other tire suggestions would be fine.
Thanks in advance
JA

div2

I have been very pleased with the Michelin Alpins on my wife's BMW; very good traction on ice/snow plus good performance on wet/dry pavement. That said, Blizzaks appear to be the hot ticket for ice traction. However, they do wear fairly quickly and they are a bit squirmy in the dry. Just my $.02.

elminster1

I have looked pretty good and from what i have seen it seems the original blizzack ws-15 is what you are talking about....the ws-50(second gen) is susposed to be better in every way from original, but i have never seen it rated everyone rates vs the old ws-15.
I have also seen great rating on the arctic alpins and i really believe in mich. reputation but everyone seems to push the blizzack.
Also. I am really wondering if i need a 70+ dollar snow tire. Dunlop seems to have a good reputation snow tire for around 50$ a piece and i dont live in Alaska.
JA

div2

I simply don't have any experience with the Graspics. However, I have had a very good experience with the Dunlops I have purchased. I especially liked the D60A2s I used on my wife's 740 Turbo and my T Bird Turbo beater. I have D40M2s on my Club Sport and they are great road/track tires as well. I also got good performance and long life from the Sport Rovers on my Pathfinder SE. I considered the Graspics but ended up getting the Alpins; too many of my rallying friends waxed ecstatic over their snow/ice performance. And the price difference wasn't all that significant- at least at Tire Rack.

carnut30

..about the relation of speed rating and wear was seen on this site. Tires with higher speed ratings are intended to grip better, run cooler, not blow apart at high speed, and the trade-off is that they do not last as long as lower speed tires. To give an example within a family, the Yokohama Avid S (112 mph) is probably warranted for 80,000 miles, the Avid T4 (118 mph) for 60,000 miles, the Avid H4 (130 mph) for 45,000 miles, and the Avid V4 (150 mph) for 40,000 ? miles. The related all-weather AVS dB (V) for 35,000 miles.

carnut30

...the Vredestein M + S tire also does well on the dry and is very low in cost (but also does not last long). Main concern is whether it is available in your size.
For a T-bird, the Cooper M + S tire is very soft-riding with good snow grip.
Nokia makes good snow tires also; some are even H-rated — very unusual for a snow tire.

elminster1

Thank alot for all the suggestions

JA

queenbee1

What are your thoughts about the current Consumer Reports article rating SUV tires? The BF Goodrich Radial Long Trail TA is rated way over the Michelin LTX M/S. I would like to know your thoughts because I recently bought a Mazda Tribute that has Firestone Wilderness 16" tires on them. They're not part of the recall yet but I don't trust Firestone. I need to replace these tires and would like to know your thoughts.

Thanks

bblaha

Tireguy doesn't have the opportunity to post as often as he used to, so if you don't mind I'll jump in.

For starters, Michelin owns BF Goodrich tires, so comparing the Long Trail TA to the LTX is comparing 2 Michelin tires. I think the general consensus is Michelin tires are "premium" while BF Goodrich tires are cheaper "darn good" tires.

And while CR may rate the LTX lower, actual customer surveys (this one from tirerack.com) show the opposite.

I no longer give much credence to CR articles and have not read the one you mention. Every time I have read an article in CR on a topic that I personally knew more than the average person about, I found the article to be woefully lacking. Maybe its just me, but it always seems like their articles are written from the "We know what's best for you" perspective. Not being beholden to advertising is good, but I just feel CR takes a more consumer activist role and less of an unbiased one.

Oh well, enough ranting agaisnt CR.

yurakm

bblaha> Every time I have read an article in CR on a topic that I personally knew more than the average person about, I found the article to be woefully lacking.

Unfortunately, this is not just with CR, but with anything printed in the general press (as opposed to scientific journals). Would it be CR, NY Times, Economist, or free town weekly newspaper.

Both USA and Russian (and previously USSR) journalists are the same in this respect. In reality, the your sentence (quoted) is almost direct translation of a standard joke, used everyday in Russia. I believe, though, that the expression was not originally Russian, but was borrowed from some famous English writer - probably B.Shaw.

mrh3108

I think I'm going to go with the Firestone SS'20's over the BF Radial TA's. The Tirerack review and one other I was able to pull up on the web spoke highly of them and I doubt they will blow apart. The 275's on this van (low top conversion) add more stability/control and look good. The treadwear ratings are also the best I can find in that size. Thanks again for the input.

yurakm

I am buying a new car soon. The OEM tires are Goodyear Eagle LS. Looked at www.tirerack.com and did not found consumer survey not test results.

Of all consumer surveys for the tires of this size, probably the best are for Firestone Firehawk SH30. Better than more expensive tires, and in many aspects better even than Michelin.

Especially good marks consumers gave to the wet traction and hydroplaning. And, while this is a high-performance tire, it have very good UTOG rating (thread wear life).

Does it make sense to swap the tires at the new car? I live in CT, where the wet traction and hydroplaning are important.

carnut30

...remember that Firestone is the 2nd rate brand of Bridgestone, which has practiced the dual-tread tire scam for at least 15 years. Perhaps the type of tires you are interested in are not subject to the scam; but you did day "car" and not "truck", so it is of real concern. kauffman@hslc.org