Midsize Sedans 2.0

bhmr59

I guess you don't play golf if you don't know how much room is needed for four golf bags, shoes and umbrellas (and frequently a couple of small coolers). That's OK.

The golf equipment would require alot more trunk space than would be required for a weekend trip for 2 with a dog in the back seat.

robertsmx

Really? You know what I have been carrying in my car, and that it takes less space than four golf bags?

Before you talk about golfing, do you realize what an additional cubic feet looks like?

thegraduate

I'm guessing a cube that's 12"x12"x12" ?

robertsmx

No, you will have to divide that by 1728.

(Before worrying about putting another golf bag in it :P )

akirby

Wrong. 12" = 12 inches = 1 foot.

Why do you have to argue with everything anyone posts?

robertsmx

What are you arguing about? Chill out, I had a smiley with my post for a reason.

Besides, we weren't talking about conversion from inch to feet and vice versa.

PS. You could use google to do it for you. :shades:

akirby

Besides, we weren't talking about conversion from inch to feet and vice versa

Why else would you divide by 1728?

andres3

OK, I'll bite: if most logical, sane people don't buy extended warranties and they are worthless for Hondas and Toyotas, why do Honda and Toyota offer then on their new cars? Let me guess: for all the illogical, insane people who buy Toyotas and Hondas?

Easy answer:

Reason one: To make money and virtually 100% profit margin.
Reason two: Because there are insane, illogical buyers out there, and they do buy Honda's and Toyota's too!
Reason 3: Some people will pay for anything.

andres3

First off, the problems with your 2006 Accord were minor, and occurred at purchase or prior to.... Therefore, they fall under dealer prep damage and/or initial new car warranty. So to apply that to value in an extended warranty is irrelevant.

If it doesn't break by the time the warranty runs out, with Honda's and Toyota's I've found it's just not going to break.

Minor items excluded. Honda's are not perfect, but their drivetrains basically are (once they figured out how to make an auto V6). All the major components that are expensive and matter a lot never seem to break down.

The Odyssey and Pilot are not Honda's best work or examples. The Civic and Accord are. That is their bread and butter.

Of course, the butter seems to be souring a tad with the OHIO built Accords and Civics, the 2005 Civic my wife had was also flawless and built and assembled in Japan. They just lack some QC on assembly at Ohio.... those Accord nuisances you described should never happen.

m1miata

When I take a nice walk, I do it without all that stuff. And I don't have to chase around a little white ball. It appears to save me money, and a lot of time hauling around all that stuff.

Guess a rather large trunk is required for a team of golfers. Or you can pull a trailer, take along a gold cart, and such. Those Dodge Sprinters look like they could hold a lot of stuff.
L

robertsmx

To convert from cubic inches to cubic feet.

urnews

that our 2007 SEL Fusion's trunk space, 15.8 cubic feet with all seats in place, may be the largest in the mid-size sedan segment. Anybody know of a mid-size with a larger trunk size? I think this is a definite plus in a sedan. The Fusion also has 100 cubic feet of cabin space.

bhmr59

The current Sonata is listed as having a 16.3 cu ft trunk. That would make it a little larger than the Fusion trunk. The Sonata's cabin space is listed as 105.4 cu ft.

thegraduate

I didn't even mention my dad's 2003 Accord which had to have a new headliner, new stereo, and had NUMEROUS rattles.

His 2005 was much better. The 03 was Japan built, the 05, Ohio.

My 1996 was made in Marysville, OH, and has been a great car.

andres3

the 96 was great, but not flawless????

Maybe the 2003 Accord problems were due more to first year troubleshooting and rushing a "class leader and benchmark" to the market. They did beat everyone else by about 3 years before others caught up.

I still feel as if the 2005 Civic from Japan was simply much better built and put together than my 2003 Accord from Ohio. Still... the 2003 Ohio Accord was MUCH better built then any domestic car I've ever been in.

akirby

Besides, we weren't talking about conversion from inch to feet and vice versa

Why else would you divide by 1728?

To convert from cubic inches to cubic feet.

I give up. You can't argue with people who contradict themselves.

thegraduate

the 96 was great, but not flawless????

Nope. It had its emissions system recalled early in life. It's thrown a CEL twice because O2 sensors go bad. They had to extend the warranty to 14 years/150k miles on all emissions system components.

It also has a resonating "growl" around 2,000 RPM that nobody can seem to locate the cause of, but it doesn't affect performance at all, so I've learned to live with it. It has had this since I got the car 5 years ago, and well before that when my grandmother still owned the car. It also has a tight temperature control which has caused me to break 3 plastic knobs in 5 years (this was before they made the control electronic in 1998).

So, no, not flawless. Very good, but not flawless.

lilengineerboy

Maybe the 2003 Accord problems were due more to first year troubleshooting and rushing a "class leader and benchmark" to the market. They did beat everyone else by about 3 years before others caught up.

I think what was even more amazing was how fast they let it fall behind. In 2007, it is missing many of the features of its peers. It was very GM like the way dealers were dumping the '07s and the price adjustments required to keep them moving.

lilengineerboy

It also has a tight temperature control which has caused me to break 3 plastic knobs in 5 years (this was before they made the control electronic in 1998).

The '93 did that as well. The Honda dealer had the temp knobs in a bin on the parts counter.

thegraduate

Yep. Once, they didn't have one, so they took one off of a 1997 Accord LX V6 on the lot and put it on my 1996 for me, and ordered the part for the other vehicle.

I think this is pretty common for Accords of this vintage. I could be wrong, but did 1989 and earlier Accords have a rotating knob, or the slider?

robertsmx

I got curious about 1989 Accord and found this. That is clearly not from American version (it has automatic climate control). Some of the design elements are still around in 2008 (multiple vent control buttons, in fact, fan speed is also via a button instead of knob).

aviboy97

the 96 was great, but not flawless????


No vehicle is flawless. I have owned a Toyota Celica, Honda Accord, Mitsubishi Eclipse and currently Mazda6 and Subaru Impreza (wife).

1991 Toyota Celica ST was blowing blue smoke at 100K, automatic tranny modulator went at 93K, A/C went at around 80K. Traded in with 165K on it.

1991 Honda Accord LX went through numerous ignition coils. Interior upholdstry started to give way at around 80K I think. SOld with 135K on it.

1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T, nothing mechanically went wrong, just not thrilled with how the interior was constructed. Traded with 75K

2005 Mazda6 i, nothing so far. Currently 35K

2002 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS , head gaskets replaced at 50K, fuel lines replaced at 60K, cracked intake manifold, 2 O2 sensors, loose heat shield, hard shift in 2nd gear, still not fixed...clock died, and center consul electrical circuit went. Car currently has 67K on it.

alamocity

And let's not forget wheelchairs, trust me if you ever have to carry one in your trunk you can definitely appreciate a trunk that is large enough to easily load and unload one easily.

m1miata

These big butt cars of today, are sort of like the old stationwagon of long ago. OK, say a foot lower in the back, and add steel where the glass was, and you got it.
If a person needs to haul a lot, do get out the tape measure and see how the cars compare. It is not a big deal to me. I had a PT Cruiser which was very good for those taller items a car with a trunk simply can not accomodate. -L

m1miata

Which features are missing? I bought the SE V6 Accord. Seems like more stuff than I can shake a stick at, but then again, I am not one for fluff, and complexity. Only thing which is strange to me is a lack of an iPod input. Of course the car has a 6 disk CD changer. My first car with a CD anything. I like having a CD to play now and then, but still use the radio the most. I drove other cars before buying the Accord. The Aura XR has a paddle shifter and 6 sp, but I am pleased with the 5 sp. in the Accord, with the D3 selection for holding gears on twisty roads, if needed. Oh yes, there is something missing in the '07 - no adjustable lumbar support. Seats are OK, but would be better had they had more lower back support. That is a real point against it. Added up all the good vs. bad after testing other cars, and sum total came down to Aura vs. Accord, so I guess I just don't see how it was lacking in features. I test drove a used Sonata, and the lumbar support lever fell off, as I tried to adjust the seats.

As for comparison tests by magazines, it is not a bad thing of course to be a winner in anything, but there are many times when the second, third or even the forth choice just happens to be your number one choice. Pretty simple, if you are a person liking say handling, to perhaps prefer the Accord with the double wishbone suspension, or if you happen to like the snappy looks of that new Fusion or Milan, it may be a winner. If you look at the 0-60 or a 60-0 test, and then the slalom, and your car is lagging by a few ticks, so what if you wanted a nice interior, more trunk space, or like the chrome on the outside - so what I say. To another person, that engine sound, the later g test, the steering feel is important to, and your car is say second place in the test overall, once again so what. It is YOUR first place car. Your $$$$ to spend. Loren

alamocity

I've definitely had to measure the depth of trunks when looking at sedans something that is hard to judge just by looking at it on the outside.

elroy5

My first Accord (92 EX) was made in Ohio, and was cheap to maintain. In 12 years 140k miles it cost me less than $1000 in repairs, and most of that was for a transmission computer. The temperature control knob cracked twice, then I figured it out. If I turned the knob halfway (12 o'clock) let it sit for a couple of seconds for the cable to release tension, then I could turn it the rest of the way without cracking the knob. If you have one of these, take note. The o-rings leaked into the spark plug tubes, so I changed them myself, very cheap. One leaky A/C pressure switch (a whole lot cheaper than a compressor), and the fuel pump went out, probably from running the tank too low a lot. My 03 EX V6 was also made in Ohio, and it has not needed one repair yet in 4 years, and 48,500 miles. Many people complain that the 7th gen Accord rides rough, but maybe the combination of slightly heavier engine, and softer leather seats gives my Accord a smooth ride, on all but the worst of roads. I couldn't be happier with it, and as long as this Accord holds up as well as the last, my next car will also be an Accord. I think the "Japan built is better than Ohio built" claim is total crap. You can get a good or not so good car from either location. Japanese assemblers are no more perfect than American assemblers, I think.

bhmr59

Good to see that you, lilengeerboy & the Grad are being perfectly honest about your experiences with your good cars (Accords).

No car is perfect and those willing to share problems on this forum make a positive contribution (and can still "love" their cars).

My '05 Sonata, almost 2.5 years old with 16,700 miles, has been "perfect" SO FAR. That won't continue forever...something is going to break at some time in the future. It does on any car, emphasis on the word "any."

elroy5

Yes, my 92 Accord needed a few repairs, but for under $100/year, I'll take that every time. It was a great car, and I loved driving it, even when I had no place to go.

thegraduate

I'm trying to post a couple of videos of my two Accords on youtube at the moment. My camera died in the middle of uploading the first one, but you can hear my 1996 crank and run for a moment. Nice and smooth. I'll try and post the full version later! The second video is of my 2006 EX Accord cranking, with a light rev there towards the end. I posted this to show how much quieter the 2006 is. The shots are taken with the same camera, 2 minutes apart.

My 1996 Accord

My 2006 Accord

The 2006 has 24,615 miles. The 1996 has around 175k.

m1miata

Well you would think it is impossible to have a zero items replaced over a long life, or say nine years, but my Dad had a Camry like that. It was a very base model '91 with a stick. If it required a tail light bulb or an inside overhead bulb once, I may have forgotten that. I do know it was never back to the dealership once. I recall one of the vents was lose or broken on the air conditioning ducts on the dash. But in nine years time you would think more would go wrong, but it simply ran without fail. It looked really good when sold, with some signs of wear on the driver seat. Those simple cars back in the early 90's by Toyota are likely to be the longest lasting of them all. His 2000 Camry is OK, but is no comparison to the zero defect and no repairs needed car of '91. Of course few people these days opt for roll up windows and such. Loren

andres3

Yes, an early 90's 4Runner from Toyota was indeed, perfect and flawless for my family for about 75,000 miles, when it was handed over by sale to a Cousin and he kept it forever, but I never asked him how it did; but being as he kept it forever, seems like its logical to assume it did well.

My friends '94 Prism from Geo (made by Toyota) was indeed flawless. It was tortured by aggressive young teenage male driver/drivers/riders, but the car simply was bulletproof, tank proof, bomb proof, missile proof, and even crash proof. Nothing would ever fail. It was floored everywhere he went, everyday.

robertsmx

Had I sold my 1998 Accord at 150K mile mark, it would have been perfect as well (except for burnt out lamps, which were the only things that “died”). Over next 32K miles, a cracked piece of radiator hose has been it. That is about as perfect a car I can imagine from any era and feature list. And that is a made in Ohio car.

So, now I’m hoping to push it thru Spring and then spring for another Accord, or the new Fit if it is here.

urnews

I couldn't be happier with it, and as long as this Accord holds up as well as the last, my next car will also be an Accord.

I believe Elroy5's experiences helps to explain the success of Honda and Toyota: happy owners become repeat customers. People who have bad experiences with any brand tend to shop elsewhere for their next car.

We bought a loaded ($27,105 MSRP) 2007 AWD SEL Ford Fusion partially because of our generally good experiences with a 1997 Ford Thunderbird, 86,000 miles, and a 2000 Ford Focus station wagon, 93,000 miles. Neither was perfect (alternators, batteries, brakes, tires for each) but no major problems either.

Favorable reviews in J.D. Power and Associates and Consumer Reports were additional factors as was having a genuinely good Ford, Lincoln Mercury dealer, Sherwood of Salisbury, Md.

The clincher was the features, handling, looks of the Fusion. We've had it almost 10 months and 4,700 miles with zero problems so we are naturally happy customers/owners.

We still own, and drive, the Thunderbird and the Focus. We are a three-Ford family.

I believe the quality of all the mid-size sedans has improved tremendously over the last 10 years, probably because Honda and Toyota helped to raise the reliability bar a few notches. It is now an extremely competitive market segment. This is good for the consumers.

juxto

Agree that no vehicle is flawless. I've owned two new accords and replaced the transmission in each of them (from what I see on these threads, Honda has more transmission problems than any manufacturer); had a new Toyota Corolla - replaced clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing and 5th gear synchronizer in first month of ownership (from what I read on these threads Toyota is "king of recalls"; two (new) diesel rabbits - no drivetrain problems (drove one for 308,000 miles), but cars both nickled and dimed me to death; a plymouth duster with 318 cu in - great car with lots of electrical problems; mazda cosmo - unsure as car was stolen after owning it for only about a month; Dodge Aires SE - problems are too numerous to even mention. So you basically pay your money and take your chances. Everyone makes good cars and everyone makes cars with problems.

aviboy97

I've owned two new accords and replaced the transmission in each of them (from what I see on these threads, Honda has more transmission problems than any manufacturer)

I don't agree that Honda has more tranny problems then any other mfg, however, my fathers 2004 Accord EX V6 coupe is now on tranny #2.....only 50K on it.

andres3

Most Honda's are sold as 4 cylinders, by far, the vast majority are 4 bangers. The 4 bangers never have had, and never did have any tranny problems, therefore, the tranny problem in Honda's was miniscule really, just for the V6 models.

thegraduate

I think it is close to 30% V6 based on the last thing I had heard. 30% of Honda Accord owners (not to mention Acura CL, Honda Odyssey, etc) having recalled transmissions isn't all that miniscule to me.

I have a friend whose CL tranny bit the dust at 85k miles or so. Locked into 2nd or 3rd gear and that was the end of that.

It is/was a very real problem. TO call it miniscule is to be a bit naive, isn't it?

robertsmx

Do we have an official/credible source on percentages somewhere?

m1miata

Hopefully the V6 doesn't still have tranny issues. Wasn't that cured in the 2006 model year? Those V6 engines sound great, and go vrooooom, almost like having a V8. And they get around 29 MPG on the freeway, short of too much vroooooming.
Loren

robertsmx

You should be able to do a lot better than 29 mpg on freeway in an Accord V6, and that will be pre-2008 Accord. Even my TL gets 32 mpg at about 72-73 mph (and considerably better at ~60 mph). At about 80 mph, it drops to 28-29 mpg. I won't be surprised to see the new Accord V6 getting mid-30s at over 70 mph.

moparbad

Even my TL gets 32 mpg at about 72-73 mph (and considerably better at ~60 mph).

Wow, that is really good, my co-worker obtains 19 mpg in city and 27 mpg highway (70 mph) in his TL.

m1miata

Well it is not always easy to lower speeds in California to 60, but it may be time to do another MPG test, as it seems to be broke in at 9,500 miles on her. Will let ya know next time I do a longer run. I may be able to top 29, but mid-30's nahhh, I doubt it. Could find a road which is safe to do 55 MPH, and is really level, to do a mileage run, but who cares. The 29 MPG was traveling in the 65 to 80 MPH range most of the way, with some creeping on through a traffic accident area. Heck, maybe it gets 32 MPG??? Will see -- happy with 29 MPG compared to those with an SUV getting less than 19 MPG. L

robertsmx

My TL actually matches my 1998 Accord's fuel economy in city and on highway. Both average around 26 mpg in mixed driving with half the distance averaging 65-70 mph. The other half is city driving. The trip computer in TL typically indicates an overall average speed of 36-38 mph. A massive traffic jam or two quickly drops the average speed, and mileage by 1-2 mpg.

During one of my recent trips to Houston, I averaged 73 mph (with occasional 80+ mph stints) and got 31 mpg. This includes some city/slow highway driving in Houston and Dallas.

As a matter of fact, this came to me as a surprise. Since my TL was rated 20/29 mpg (now it is rated 18/26), and I'm usually one of the faster guys on the road, my expectations were around 29-30 mpg. Then I had an opportunity to fill up and drive for a biton a 70 mph highway. As usual, my average speed was between 70-75 mph. And after a few miles on a slower highway (60-65 mph), it was a pleasant surprise to see trip computer indicating 32 mpg. I had a camera handy, so I decided to record it, and here it goes:


I ended up driving about 101 miles that evening (about 60% freeway), and trip computer indicated 30 mpg. But this is more typical on per tank basis:


The trip computer is fairly accurate.

robertsmx

Slow isn't better. I've figured out that the best mileage is to be had around 50-60 mph. Any slower and mileage goes down. I decided to play with the TL one day and after refueling and resetting the trip computer, drove about 10 miles at 60-62 mph. The trip computer was showing 36 mpg and flirting with 37 mph, but dropped to 35 mpg by the time I got home (the last 3 miles were at 40-45 mph). I'm hoping to try this again over a long stretch but I'm not a driver with patience to cruise around at only 60-65 mph. :P

Between 65-75 mph, I seem to get 32 mpg. Mileage seems to drop rather quickly after that, 28-29 mpg around 80 mph. That has made me wonder, what kind of mileage could VCM (as in 2008 Accord V6) get?

andres3

I wouldn't trust the trip computers and fuel mileage computers at all. The only thing I trust is this..... If it takes me 10 gallons to fill it up, and it was full when I started, and I went 300 miles, then I got 30 MPG. That is the only relatively accurate way to figure true miles per gallon. Do it for each tank/fill-up.

zzzoom6

I believe the quality of all the mid-size sedans has improved tremendously over the last 10 years, probably because Honda and Toyota helped to raise the reliability bar a few notches. It is now an extremely competitive market segment. This is good for the consumers.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. Both JD Powers and Consumer Reports have published data that the difference in reliability between the highest rated and the lowest rated cars in this segment over a five year period is around 1 extra problem where the best would have around 3 problems and the worst around 4 problems on average. Considering the complexity of cars these days and consumers increasingly demanding standards, it's amazing to me how good most of these cars hold up. There are always exceptions to the rule of course and we all hope that we aren't the owner of those bad exceptions! But all this data shows that cars in this class can be chosen based on features and characteristics that are important to the buyer.

For me, I wanted something that could hold a lot of cargo (not only is this important for my job, but I have found this very handy for moving stuff) and wanted something very fun to drive. I wanted something that rated well in crash tests, had a manual transmission, and had over 200 hp. Luckily I wasn't in a hurry to make a decision, so I bought around Thanksgiving and was able to save thousands of dollars. Almost 2 years later, I still get excited about road trips and find excuses to take my car out for a drive... my Mazda6 is by far the best car I've had a chance to spend a lot of time with. I'm sure I would have been happy with other cars in this class, but I'd have to make significant compromises on either handling or utility while also having to pay thousands more.

robertsmx

Now I will have to include the receipt in the picture. :P

I do calculate manually as well. Based on my experience, trip computer seems to be accurate (in loaner TSX, rental Altima and my TL). The only way I can the get mileage in my Accord is to calculate.

m1miata

Call me a pessimist, but I am still thinking the best reliable and long lasting, as in durable cars came out in the early years of the 90's from Japan. Those more simple cars. As for the domestics, well yes indeed, the 2002 on are better. Now which is better long term is another story. In say the fourth, seventh or tenth year, which will still look good, drive well and be trouble free. Most bets are still on the Japan makes, as most retail customers of these mid-sized cars choose the Japan make first, then the domestic, Korean and all the rest. And yes, I can see how most will conclude that due to all the makes being screwed together better and using a lot of the same assembly techniques, most cars should be pretty close in initial quality. Only time will tell as to how the sum of the parts inside and engineering play out down the long road however.

Considering all the complexity of the modern day car, it is truly a wonder how most do not have all sorts of strange things going on. Once again, the car with a gazillion air bags, stability control, electronic everything, and all that jazz is pretty new. Will any be trouble free and affordable to keep very long, is the question? Ya know a '65 Mustang is pretty simple and thus still on the road. L

robertsmx

While I don't care much for JD Powers etc, but since you brought up the name, I decided to look at their IQS from 2006 for following cars ranked best to worst, averaging overall quality ratings (mechanical and design):
1-Honda Accord: 4.75
1-Toyota Camry: 4.75
2-Ford Fusion: 4.25
2-Nissan Altima: 4.25
3-Chrysler 300: 3.75
3-Pontiac G6: 3.75
4-Chevrolet Impala: 3.25
5-Mazda6: 3.0
6-Dodge Stratus: 2.75

As Mazda's and Ford's positions suggest, it doesn't matter whether it is an American brand or Japanese, but on the overall picture, the prominent Japanese makes are still on top. How do they stack up in the long term? It should make for another interesting ranking.