Midsize Sedans 2.0

captain2

aah so! OK I take it all back, and I'll be right behind you (and FoMoCo) into the depths of Chapter 7 as we all make (lose?) a fortune buying and selling used (and new) Mazda6s!
As I said it just doesn't happen and nor is any car (yes, even those Camcords) ever a good investment from any reasonable strictly financial viewpoint. In terms of believing a Camcords probable resale value projections vs. anything else in this group (other than the Altima, which also ranks very high on the ole used desirability list) - all you really have to do is actually try to sell (or buy) one vs the other - and then you will see how close your treasured KBB retail/private party/tradein numbers really are - in both cases.
Let me know when that happens to you, then I will apologize profusely for challenging any of these ridiculous contentions you make! As it is right now a Mazda6 should hold its value about as well as a Sonata - really lofty territory don't you think? Things like $6k discounts on $20k new cars do things like that.

maxamillion1

I like the interior shot! Looks at least better than the new Altima's interior.

Kinda makes me wonder if Nissan will have to do another "Interior 2.0" like they did with the 05 Altima. This time it wouldn't be because of materials, it would be because of the spartan design.

I like the new Altima, but the more I see new competitors hit the market, the more I worry that Nissan played it too safe with the Altima's redesign. The front end (which looks like it's smiling) isn't nearly aggresive enough, the styling looks too similar to the previous generation.

Even the Sonata is getting a more cohesive inteior next year...I'm definitely worried about Nissan.

zzzoom6

once again, since you can't seem to respond to what I've actually written and instead insist on making things up or divert into childish sarcism, I'll just make the point that these are not my resale value #'s...they are KBB's. If you have an issue with their valueations, feel free to show me some data that supports your point. Since banks, car dealerships, and magazines use KBB to figure things like TCO, this suggests that many people familiar with this industry feel that KBB is a good guide to car resale values. Until you can come up with more than your own personal hunch as to why KBB should be discredited, you're just flailing around in this argument and not making any contact with the issues at hand. And since you've taken this position, you do realize that any effort you make to talk about TCO of cars has been invalidated by your own arguments... congrats.

Kirstie_H

OK, we are getting into sillyland again. This is NOT about individual resale values, and we have already done (to death) the resale value v. new argument. Please move on, so Pat & I don't have to spend our Sundays deleting pedantic, nitpicky posts. Thank you.

lilengineerboy

Please move on, so Pat & I don't have to spend our Sundays deleting pedantic,

Yeah and we don't have time to spend our Sundays looking up multiple syllable words like pedantic. :P j/k

Kirstie_H

Cool... then you'll just take my word for it

jeffyscott

Was/is a longer warranty a significant factor to anyone? When I shopped, it really wasn't. I thought it would be nice to have a 4 or 5 year warranty, but in the end it really did not matter.

I probably did give a little more consideration, than I otherwise would have to Sonata due to the warranty. Due to the warranty, I even gave very brief consideration to the Galant, but never did even test drive one...partly because the dealer is in an inconvenient location.

Just wonder if anyone bought or is planning to buy model X instead of model Y specifically because of a long warranty. BTW, the only ones in this class that have 5 year full warranty are Sonata, Galant, and Optima, right?

jd10013

didn't even consider the warranty, have had nothing but good experiences with nissan. It took the finance guy 20 minutes and lowering the price twice to get me to take an extended warranty.

elroy5

I think if someone was on the fence between this car, and that car, a longer warranty could make the difference. I doubt it would actually change one's decision from the car of choice to another car. Maybe that's why they don't all have long warranties. Because it doesn't change many minds.

goodegg

I'm definitely worried about Nissan.

Worried about what? Nissan's ability to keep up with the strong demand for the new Altima?

I think it's a sweet ride. No worries.

bhmr59

That seems like a contradiction. You say "don't even consider the warranty" and then said you spent 20 minutes dickering over the price of an extended warranty before you bought it.

Sounds to me like you wanted a warranty that was better than what Nissan included as standard.

Hyundai's unmatched warranty was important to me. Four months before I bought my Sonata in April '05, I started researching cars. One of the things that attracted me to test drive a Sonata was the warranty. The more I researched, the more it became apparent that Hyundai was a "player."

My car has been fantastic. Not one thing has had to be adjusted or corrected in 27 months and ~15,300 miles. My brother now has an '07 Sonata, a friend has an '07 Azera (& 2 months after ownership bought his college age son an '02 Sonata w/ 15K miles) and he referred a co-worker who bought an '07 Tuscon.

The warranty is meaningful to some people. I know that I won't be looking at any major expenses for 5/60K and 10/100K for power train (the really major expenses) if something goes wrong. But, so far so good, on the 4 cars I mentioned.

goodegg

Not one thing has had to be adjusted or corrected in 27 months and ~15,300 miles.

Jeez - I hope not. I put 15,300 miles on a car in 9 months easy, and would expect zero issues in that time frame also, be it a Honda or a Ford.

elroy5

I paid for an extended warranty once, back in 91. All that $600 got me was a new temperature control knob. If I think the car is unreliable, I don't want. I bought a Nissan, a Toyota, and a Honda since then, and the only one that needed a repair (that would have fallen under extended warranty) was the Nissan. And that one didn't amount to $600, so I came out ahead on that one too.

maxamillion1

The Altima is in strong demand now...but there are some seriously new competitors that will be there.

*New Malibu
*New Mazda6 (that already is sportier than the Altima, and probably will be bigger and still probably handle better)
*New Accord (that's a given PERIOD)

Nissan did a good job redesigning the Altima..but the styling is too evolutionary (I Love my 05, just wish the 07 was better) The interior has some good materials, but the design is lacking visually...

Seems like Nissan is moving away from the "BOLD" designs of the previous generation. Things are too evolutionary now..and the Sentra has got to be the worst looking car to come out of Nissan since the current Maxima.

m1miata

I like the style of the latest Altima. I prefer the transmission, and steering of my Accord. I do not like the strange placement of the emergency brake. Style wise, I would say pretty cool and modern. If buying a stick, I would consider one. Is the emergency brake still a foot one though, and placed about where the clutch should be?
Loren

jeffyscott

The warranty is meaningful to some people. I know that I won't be looking at any major expenses for 5/60K and 10/100K for power train (the really major expenses) if something goes wrong.

I was thinking about this because my 20 yr old kid totaled the hand-me-down Contour he was driving and will need to replace it. He seems to just want to buy another junker, which I think is the best choice for him. But I have been letting him know his other options. One of which would be buy a car with a 5 year warranty and pay for it over 5 years. The extra expense of interest and the need for collision insurance is partly offset by having no repair costs.

I think for someone with a limited budget the 5 year warranty makes going with a 5 year loan safer. That is assuming they do not drive so many miles that the 5 years become 3 or something.

goodegg

The Altima is in strong demand now...but there are some seriously new competitors that will be there.

*New Malibu

I doubt the new Malibu will have much of an impact on Altima sales. The Accord won't either - there are built in sales Honda will always get, and for good reason. Shoot, even the Sonata hasn't made much of a dent in the Accord's armor, let alone the Altima's.

jd10013

That seems like a contradiction. You say "don't even consider the warranty" and then said you spent 20 minutes dickering over the price of an extended warranty before you bought it.


no, It's not a contradiction. I went in to buy my car with no intention of purchasing a warranty. I've owned 2 other nissan vehicles, and never used the extended warranty. not even once. so this time, I figured why waste the money? However, the dealership had different plans. when they gave me the final price, I told them it was high, to drop the warranty. they spent 20 minutes trying to talk me into buying one. we weren't dickering over price. they just kept lowering it because my intial reason for decling it was that it was a waste of money, which, for the most part, i thought it was. But for some reason, the dealership was hell bent on me getting an extended warranty. so, after 20 minutes of them twisting my arm, lowering the price of the warranty, and lowering other charges in order to get the car priced the same with the warranty as it would have been without it.............I gave in and took it.

lilengineerboy

Jeffyscott- I think you are very wise for considering insurance costs in that budget. Another thing to consider is how handy or willing to work on the car himself is he? Older vehicles have a "nickel and dime" tendency, but most of those things are reasonably easy to repair DIY. If the Accord (which is old) had to go in for service every time something broke, there is no way I could afford that car and the monthly maintenance cost would be more than a car payment (and perhaps the insurance cost would be offset by not having to spend time repairing it).
At this point, unfortunately my time is becoming more valuable, keeping up with the vehicle repair is getting too much, and that monthly cost is approaching a car payment, so that is putting me in the market for something newer.

jeffyscott

Another thing to consider is how handy or willing to work on the car himself is he?

I think he is handy, but unwilling .

He does have a part-time job, though. He earns ~$150 per week and does not spend much, so he can afford the occassional repair.

So the trade-off is $500-1000 per year in repairs vs. higher insurance costs and car payments. OTOH, if he has collision coverage he will limit his losses should he have another accident.

OTOOH, if he has another accident insurance costs may explode...in fact, that may already be in the works, since it was officially a single vehicle accident. A least nothing was lost but a car, lucky considering he was forced off the freeway and then ended up spinning out of control accross all 3 lanes. I do wonder if ESC might have helped, though ...

urnews

if he has another accident insurance costs may explode...in fact, that may already be in the works, since it was officially a single vehicle accident.

You can count on it. Anyone know if mid-size sedans cost less to insure?

lilengineerboy

I do wonder if ESC might have helped, though

Yup, it would've kept him going head first straight into the k-barrier :P (I'm just kidding, although that is a reasonable possibility)

It sounds like his experience is typical of where the vehicle off road crashes happen. When the car leaves the roadway and tries to get back on, a bunch of bad stuff starts happening. This is also one of the easiest ways to roll an SUV, as joining the roadway from a low shoulder may be enough to provide the "trip" to roll it. Its very scary stuff.
One of the things they told us at the HPDEs is "if you go off, stay off," which was basically saying if you exist the course (or roadway or whatever) to get the vehicle completely under control (and slowed) before rejoining the roadway; there have been a number of times I have seen a vehicle go spinning off on the inside of a course (with an open field and no obstacles) only to fight its way back onto the course while the driver didn't have enough directional control of the vehicle and would hit the inside wall sideways.

maxamillion1

That may be so.

The new Malibu has all of the goodness of the Aura, plus more, I wouldn't doubt the Malibu too much, considering the Impala outsells the Altima.

If the Impala, with all of it's old technology, can beat the Altima, who's to say a new Malibu couldn't?

Same with the Accord. The Impala is getting close to Accord sales, probably do to fleets. But the Altima is sold in high numbers to fleets as well.

jeffyscott

Yes, he probably should have just stayed off on the right shoulder, taken his foot off the gas and let the car slow down. I will mention that to him for future reference. Thanks for pointing this out, it's what I think I have done in somewhat similar situations but had not thought of it.

I am not sure exactly what he did do, I don't think he is either.

jeffyscott

Anyone know if mid-size sedans cost less to insure?

It does seem to. Allstate has a "ballpark estimate" feature on Focus was about 10% more than Fusion. With liability only the difference was about 20%. That is odd, you would think liability would be less, the smaller the car is. They do include uninsured motorist in that estimate, but I can't imagine that costs enough to account for the difference.

plekto

One of which would be buy a car with a 5 year warranty and pay for it over 5 years. The extra expense of interest and the need for collision insurance is partly offset by having no repair costs.

The truth, though, is that you can get a "beater" that's a perfectly fine car for less than $6000 that's only a few years old. Of course, it will be a Ford or GM midsize sedan, but they are safe and get reasonably well mileage as well.

Say he gets a $9995 Chevy Aveo(5 year drivetrain) - about as cheap as it gets new. It's going to kill him in payments and not be either as safe or as nice as say, an 7-8 year old LeSabre or a 5-6 year old Grand Marquis.

Grand Marquis GS
($6,000)Manufacturer Rebates:
Net Cost: $17,879
That's new.

Used:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=221055456
Yes, 6.5 years old and $5995. New makes no sense at all for someone on such a limited budget. I boubt if he's going to abuse it even half as bad a a taxi driver or police officer.

Fuel cost is minimal as well, so mpg is moot. - what he needs at 20 years old is sometihng to get to school and work. He's not putting on 20,000 miles a year(at least I hope he's not - lol)

Actually, I'd go OLD. Classic and dirt cheap to work on. Pre-smog, and pre-computers. Like an old Volvo 140. Engine is bulletproof, rest of the car can be worked on for almost nothing. Get one of the 1976 or older models as there isn't any computers or smog equipment to really speak of. It's virtually the same as a Volvo 240, just with carbs and stuff you can fix yourself.

Or you can always find an older 1970s domestic. Something that loks retro and he can fix and modify a bit - without losing too much value. There's a reason college students tend to drive old heaps like this. Because there isn't anything that gets you areound for less money.

m1miata

Those new found sales for the Impala are mostly rental fleet. 53.9% for the first half of 2007 were fleet sales of one sort or another. The Honda Accord was 4.9%, so there you have it, you decide. Altima 16.4% fleet - big deal ! The Impala found some new retail customers when it change the look inside and out. The freshen up was a good one. More advertising and a longer warranty also helped. It however is no match for the foreign competition. The car is what it is. A bit larger, good for a company car or renting for a vacation.

The New Malibu is going to do better than the Aura, no doubt. It has all the Chevy dealerships and a more interesting looking interior, with possibly better pricing off-the-bat. So Malibu does well, Aura is just sort of hanging around and the G6 is due to die off.
Loren

maxamillion1

As I said, if the Impala (regardless of fleet sales) can be sold in great numbers, who's to say a Malibu which is significantly better than the Impala, and better than the Aura can't do the same thing? Each year those fleets sales have went down for the Impala, so it's a sign that retail sales for the Impala are actually improving.

I never mentioned anything about the Accord's fleet sales, which I knew would be low. But I do believe that the new Malibu will be a true competitor, more so of a competitor than the Fusion, Aura or Sonata mainly because of Chevy's big dealer network and the fact that the car is soooo much better than the current model. I also feel that the Malibu's styling is going to attract some people to and that it's interior (with it's elements of cheapness) is unique because it offers so many color schemes.

Some features of the Malibu are missing (Nav, Bluetooth, etc) but I feel the car is going to be competitive otherwise, just like the Aura is...but it will be a MUCH better seller than the Aura because it has a bigger network of dealers, a competitive V6, I4/6spd auto combo on the LTZ, and more competitive pricing than the Aura has.

We'll have to wait it out and see...but in the meantime, as an owner of the previous generation Altima, I'm still worried about the car.

Has anyone seen this pic of the new 'Bu? I'm feeling it.



Either way I can't wait until all these new cars get here! A new Accord in Sept, around the same time we get to see the new Mazda6 in Geneva. By Jan, the new Malibu will be here.

Can't wait to see some comparison tests.

m1miata

Nope, fleet sales are rising for the Impala

jeffyscott

Say he gets a $9995 Chevy Aveo(5 year drivetrain) - about as cheap as it gets new. It's going to kill him in payments...

After estimating the insurance cost, that alone kills him. So another beater it is...maybe it'll be a midsize .