Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1113114116118119544

Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I was able to achieve 100mpg in my 330. Going downhill with my foot off the gas was great on gas mileage. :shades The trip computer did register 34 mpg at about an even 70 mph. Stop and go killed the mileage though.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    IQS says nothing about long term. It's an indication of how the car comes off the assembly line.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Slow isn't better.

    I concur. Getting to speed slowly and minimizing starts and stops is where you pick up mileage. There are lights on my commute that are timed to prevent you from making more than one light (so you have to stop for each one - even though they all turn green at the same time), so watching traffic try in vein flooring their poor little cars only to realize they are going to have to slam on their brakes as they miss the light just makes this sucking sound (I also think the county should have a class action lawsuit for making the road system as inefficient as possible, but that is another story).
    Anyway, by anticipating starts and stops well in advance, you can be a lot lighter on the gas, brake, and clutch, and the fuel economy goes up in spades. I got 37 mpg in the '07 Accord EX last tank, and that is an 80/20 mix.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I wasn't able to find the same data you researched, but I did come across this PDF of the 2006 JD Powers IQS study. You forgot to include Hyundai in your list which actually was listed higher than either Honda or Toyota.

    http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2006082.pdf

    However, I do agree that IQS really doesn't impact long-term reliability, etc.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Ford, GM or Chrysler had a mid-size that was the fastest from 0 to 60, stopped the fastest from 60 to 0, had the best city and highway gas mileage, was rated the top car by all of the car magazines, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power.

    Better still, this mythical car would sell for $20,000 and have V6 power and come equipped with either a six-speed manual or an eight-speed automatic.

    In short, this wonder car from Ford, GM or Chrysler would be head and shoulders above all competitors in the mid-size market regardless of the yardstick used.

    Would the wonder car outsell the Camry and Accord? I seriously doubt it. The Camry and Accord have a customer base that just won't quit, legions of loyal owners. The wonder car would have to be on the market for five or 10 years before it would capture first place in sales.

    The mid-size sedan market is indeed competitive but still dominated by the Camcords. That situation is not likely to change, regardless of what the competitors produce.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I did look at Sonata, it would have placed below Accord and Camry in that list, but I was sticking with Japanese/US brands (you won't see a German brand included either).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    (you won't see a German brand included either).

    I'd hope not, there are no German brands included in the thread. There are, however, Koreans.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    They are a loyal base for good reasons. I wasn’t a Honda guy but the Accord experience changed it all. Now, it is a tall order for any other brand to get my $$$. Is it a perfect car? I can see things Honda could (and should) have done differently or better. But as a package, it is a great car. I haven’t seen the new Accord in person, yet, however.

    As a brand, Honda is seen as one of the best in quality not just here in America, but also in Europe. If you look at Top Gear’s compilation of best to worst brands, Honda is at #3 behind Skoda and Lexus. But these studies and surveys aren’t the reason for setting the benchmark, they backup personal experience. Outside of lifestyle buyers (who want to buy something unique/different for the sake of it), I can see why it would be a tall order to sway a lot of buyers. For that, GM, Ford and Chrysler will not only have to deliver cars like what you suggested, they will have to do it on a consistent basis for some time.

    The problem with these three is that they rely too much on flash, little on substance. They try to match or beat existing Toyota/Honda products, but with every redesign, they get left behind. The idea should be to set benchmark, than follow one. And it won’t happen overnight. There was a time (1960s) when Chevrolet was selling Impala in numbers that combined sales of Accord and Camry (today) can’t match. What happened? GM didn’t keep up with the times. Accord, and then Camry, arrived. The rest is history.

    My car ownership history:
    1982 Celica Supra (bought used, served the purpose well)
    1988 Corolla GT-S (bought used, served the purpose very well)
    1992 Camry LE (bought used, had a few issues)

    In fall 1997, I was ready for my first new car. I liked older Camry but hated the way 1997 was designed. Taurus and it also were the rental queens, and after plenty of seat time, I figured out that I couldn’t live with either of them. So, I didn’t even test drive these two, but considered plenty of others (Altima, Maxima, Intrigue, Grand Prix and Passat). 1998 Accord emerged as the winner, partly based on reputation and rest on driving experience, as well as it meeting my needs and the budget. Cars since then,
    1999 Prelude
    2000 Civic
    2006 TL (shares time and garage with my 1998 Accord)

    So, I did give a chance to others. In case of Intrigue, it was supposed to be an extremely competitive product, and it was. But it didn’t last. I travel and rent cars a lot. And after driving them all, I see no reason to get anything but another Accord. Although, the next Fit is a contender now, since I could use a frugal car with hatchback utility, with a sedan already in the garage.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You forgot one. Had a history of producing reliable cars and worked hard to earn their customers business. Yes, I would buy from that manufacturer.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I would consider Passat to be a contender in this thread. I loved it in 1997, and after observing quality issues am wary of owning one. But thats another story.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I would consider Passat to be a contender in this thread.

    I had it pegged as a solid Avalon/Maxima contender based on price and available features. The V6 model STARTS at over $30k. A model with dual climate control and leather will be in the $33k range.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    V6 is unnecessary in Passat. It is very well equipped with a nice 200 HP engine for $24K. Thats right about the average transaction price of an average car in America, and can be had for less. If not for my observations in friends' cars, seeing how they have aged (especially the drive train), it will be a while before I show my faith in anything VW. Because the way I drive, it won't take long to be out of warranty.

    Same with Accord. If I do go for one, it will be another EX-L for me (with NAV this time).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    In a 3400 lb car, some people will deem a V6 necessary, regardless of how nice the 4 is. That's why they offer one. Same is true in Camry, Accord, Fusion.

    I've got a 4-cyl Accord and it has plenty of power, and is smooth to boot. Other people will still want more of each.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    My 1998 Accord is ~3200 lb, and going by current standards, it has only ~145 HP (150 HP by old standard) and a 4-speed automatic. But it drives like a more powerful car, loaded and is very smooth. I deemed the 200 HP V6 unnecessary ten years ago.

    The key to performance is in gearing and how it utilizes the power curve. Passat has both. While most people are fixated with 0-60 runs (which largely explains the quest for more and more power), for me it is all about rolling acceleration.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree, but the premium sedan customer will be a little different I believe. Some people buying a sedan won't settle for a 4-cylinder for pure reasons of it not being "the best."

    I have a 130 hp Accord and find it plenty for my needs. Not 'fast' but adequate.

    See it here:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=oqpmCiC_twg
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    That is the problem. A lot of people seem to buy based on nomenclature… “So, it has got a V6 or a four banger?” Two possible responses:
    “It is a V6 sire”… “I will take it”
    “It is a four cylinder sire but see it performs like a V6”… “four banger, eh?”

    I decided to look at C&D road test for Passat 2.0T and they have it for wagon (3492 lb). They did one for sedan but with the 280 HP/V6.

    “Sixty mph arrives in 7.2 seconds. That’s 1.3 seconds slower than the V-6 Passat sedan, but it’s still quicker than a V-6 Ford Fusion.”

    And it is not just 0-60 where it does well. Its 5-60 acceleration is impressive too, 7.7 seconds.

    I value 5-60 more (and other rolling start acceleration tests that virtually no American automotive pros seem to care about) since it is more telling of a drivetrain's elasticity. Some European magazines will go as far as testing acceleration in different gears for same range of speeds (with manual transmission). We get 0-60 with high rpm clutch drop for armchair bragging rights.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Very true, and that was sort of my point in my previous post.

    Another reason is that some people don't want to rev their engine beyond 3,000 RPM. Me? I'll take it to 4k on a daily basis if I need or want to. In my youtube video, I am taking an interchange ramp (a 30 MPH ramp) and accelerating back to my cruising speed on the other interstate. I hit just under 4,000 RPM, but its no biggie in a Honda 4.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Interestingly enough, I rarely go past 3500 rpm in the Accord and still leave the rest of the traffic behind. I will get close to redline a few times everyday but only when merging on a freeway. This would be the time I look for maximum power and in most cases, 20 lb/HP ratio is plenty to have me ready to stomp on brakes by the end of it.

    That might also explain why I get similar mileage in Accord and TL. While the TL is 1.8 times as powerful, I'm probably using 80% of Accord's potential, and only 50% of TL's.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    How much longer does Honda and Toyota get to skate by on their past before the realities of today start to be recognized?

    They just recalled the new Civic AGAIN - this time because a wheel could fall off. Camry and Accord have both had recent transmission problems including locking up at highway speeds. The Odyssey has been recalled at least 14 times. The brand new Toyota Tundra had catastrophic camshaft failures only months after launching.

    These things were unheard of a decade ago. I get that some of it is simply brand preference and I understand that - I have the same preferences for certain things. I just don't understand how things like that can be ignored by so many people for so long.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    These things were unheard of a decade ago. ... I just don't understand how things like that can be ignored by so many people for so long.

    A mystery to be sure. The media would be all over these incidents like white on rice if the vehicles had Ford, General Motors or Chrysler written on them. Introduced in late 2005 as a 2006 model, the Ford Fusion has yet to have its first recall. Knock on wood.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    It does not take much to leave the rest of traffic behind. When I can't, because of too many cars in front of me, I'm running at around 2000 rpm accerating at the pathetically slow pace of traffic.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I will get close to redline a few times everyday but only when merging on a freeway. This would be the time I look for maximum power and in most cases, 20 lb/HP ratio is plenty to have me ready to stomp on brakes by the end of it.

    I'm like you, I don't typically rev high except when merging, and even then, 4,500 or so is usually the top end of it. Also, my Accord in the youtube video I posted has a ratio of over 22 lbs per hp. The new Accord 4-cyl has a ratio near 17 lbs per hp, I believe.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Adequate is a good thing - excellent is a better thing. Just drive a V6 Accord and the i4 Accord on the same day. The sweet sound of a V6 at full throttle is pretty cool. A V6 or V8 is still very much my personal choice, unless I am looking more to save money, which I did for years in buying only i4 or fuel efficient v6 cars, or the car only came with a smaller engine. Price wise you save all the way around. Power wise, I like the smooth delivery of the V6 when compared to a noisier i4 with a turbo, which going to require that extra turbo boosting before delivery. To save on gas costs, when gas gets to be $5 per gallon, or to keep to a smaller engine, like a Saab, yeah a turbo would be good. And with a stick shift, most of the new i4 engines are adequate to downright quick these days. But better than a V6, well that is a stretch.

    I am sure most older people, like little ol' me, also equate the i4 in a domestic and a rough and rocky engine. It was only after Japans smoother and durable i4 engines in those little cars had come out, that people gave much consideration to an i4 engine. In domestics it was first a V8, then a compromise to get the V6 or inline 6. Of course, those which purchased say the slant 6 Valiant, may still be on their first engine. ;) I guess most older people now do accept the domestic i4 engine cars, but no where nearly as much as they value the Japan i4 engined cars. This dates back to the later 60's. L
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I guess most older people now do accept the domestic i4 engine cars

    You ain't kidding. Just yesterday I saw 2 Honda Civic coupes drove by senior citizens (at least 70 years old). I guess this is only in California, in Florida they'll either be in a CV/GM, Buick or Avalon.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Typical Honda/Toyota dealer response to a problem:

    Dealer: "Yes, there is a problem with your vehicle. We are happy to fix it for you entirely free of charge (usually with no hassle). Also, Honda/Toyota has extended your warranty coverage on the affected part(s)."

    Typical Ford/GM/Chrsyler dealer response to a problem:

    Dealer: "We could not find a problem with your vehicle." or "Here is a band-aid for your vehicle."
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    ... my Accord in the youtube video I posted has a ratio of over 22 lbs per hp. The new Accord 4-cyl has a ratio near 17 lbs per hp, I believe.

    I am not familiar with the horsepower per pound statistic. I'm guessing that a lower number is better?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes. Just divide weight (2900 lbs) by horses (130) to get the figure. It means each horse has 22 lbs, in effect. Less weight = faster car. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That measurement is kind of useless. For example the 335 reaches 90% of torque(300) at 1400 rpms. This means 270 ft/lb torque are available at 1400 rpm to move the car forward. The weight to hp ratio means less on a 335 than on an S2000, which relies on high rpms to develop hp.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Your facts are true, but in this market, these sedans make most of their power usable. Variable Valve Timing (VTEC, VVTi, etc) has helped a lot of this. I'm not saying that number is the end-all figure or anything, but I wouldn't call it useless either. Can we agree to disagree? :)

    It still gives you an idea of what to expect from a car. People touted the Ford Edge's 260+ horses, but fail to mention that it weighs over 4,500 lbs (more than several 8 passenger vehicles I can think of). In return you get a car with decent acceleration, but not the rocket you'd think 260 horses would turn this midsize 5-passenger SUV into.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It isn’t entirely useless. While measured at peak power, most engines have a linearly rising power curve. For that matter, if I see a car with 13.5 lb/HP, I can estimate it to run 0-60 in about 6 seconds.

    Where a car produces peak power doesn’t matter, because power should be matched to wheel speed (not rpm) since it takes gearing into account.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Funny the Honda guys have ignored this but continue to on and on how a 4 cylinder Accord is the best thing since..well the best thing ever. Guess you will eventually get a reply (a negative one no doubt) when they quit exclaiming how good an engine that ole' Accord has.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, this Honda guy isn't old enough to remember the past; I've only been driving since late 2002. And ya know what, I'll say it too. In this class, the Accord has the best 4-cylinder to ME. I don't know of any known problems stemming from this 2.4L. Can I not state this opinion without some major ridicule?

    I don't think all "Honda guys" in this forum are created equal (we sure don't post like it). Give some of us some credit. I've posted the good AND the bad, and even I get ridiculed from some fellow Honda owners when I say my two Accords have not been "flawless."

    We're not all burying our heads in the sand fellas!
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I would have to consider myself an old fuddy duddy - almost 61 - but, I've been driving Inline 4's for 40 years, as of next year. There are some mighty smooth I4 engines, albeit not many with birth origins in Detroit.

    As to the pros of a well-designed V6, yes, they are nice, powerful engines. But, if one is like me who keeps a car on average from 10 to 20 years, the maintenance differential between an I4 and a V6 is substantial, especially when it comes to out-of-warranty repair costs (either preventive or corrective). I used to turn wrenches for a living, and would much prefer working on a Inline engine over any V6, especially in the transverse configuration. Because of this, I opt for the Inline 4 every time.

    But, if you have the money and/or lease rather than buy and keep a car for only a few years, go for the V6.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Go ask the Toyota owners with sludged engines how they were treated and why they had to file (and win) a class action lawsuit against Toyota to get their engines replaced.

    There are good dealers and bad dealers for all makes. Stop perpetuating a false stereotype.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I disagree with your statement. An engine that develops peak torque at 1400 is going to have different characteristics than one that develops peak torque at 3500. Sure gearing is also different, but in general the former car is going to be faster to 60 than the latter car.

    Assuming apples to apples vehicle comparison. Not Tahoe vs S2000 for example.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Your facts are true, but in this market, these sedans make most of their power usable. Variable Valve Timing (VTEC, VVTi, etc) has helped a lot of this.

    Eh, what it did was allow for the motor to be tuned more for low end torque (and that is still very relative) and support the breathing requirements for high-rpm driving.

    Any low displacement mutli-valve motor likes being revved more than being lugged. If you look at something GMs 3.8 pushrod, that thing feels really quick from 0-40 or so, but it is pretty much all over by 4500-5000 rpm. The 4 valve/cylinder motors don't even wake up until about 3500 rpm and they rock to about 7 or 8k.

    I don't think I would want a vehicle bigger than the '07 Accord with a 4 cylinder. Its adequate in that car with a stick, but nothing earth shattering. The salesperson at the Saturn dealership pointed out that race cars have 4 cylinder motors, and then I pointed out how often the are rebuilt.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I don't think I would want a vehicle bigger than the '07 Accord with a 4 cylinder. Its adequate in that car with a stick, but nothing earth shattering.

    I'd like to point out that in the last comparison I read including the Altima and Aura, that the 4-cylinder Altima was faster than the V6 Aura.

    We obviously have different ideas of "adequate," and thats ok. Adequate would be my 130 hp Accord. It gets me where I need to go without being floored when merging on the interstate. My 2006 Accord 4-cyl is much quicker than that car.

    Then again, I'm not the average 20 year old :). I've never had a ticket, never caused a wreck (been hit three times but never at fault) I'm more often in the middle or right lane as opposed to the left lane, and I don't ever do much more than 8-10 MPH over the posted limit. Usually about 5 over.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    So you _think_ GM dealers don't fix problems? That's an erroneous sterotype.

    But Let's talk about HOnda and the transmission problems through the decades. Would you rather be one of the people for whom they graciously replace a transmission with the same, flawed transmission at 40K and then at 75K and extend the warranty to 100K. But wait a minute: the Honda is touted by some as a 250K mile car with no problem. SO now you're stuck with a flawed transmission design but your warranty is gone at 100K so the next replacements are on you.

    Or do you want to talk about the people in Edmund's discussions reporting about delay, lag, flare, in their now Camry transmission and the dealers act like they're never heard the complaint before and the owner just needs to adjust to the car's driving style, or the car has to learn the customer's style, etc. The thread has gone through Toyota lexus models, and the Avalon, and now the Camry.

    Yup that's customer service. Let's get real. A couple of proHonda posters in one thread stated that even their cars, with which they are very satisfied, have had problems. All cars have some problems. Some are mitigated by what the dealer or company does for the problem. But please don't try the stereotype misconception.

    And the topic is features of the cars and practical comparisons not the stereotypes from the past and present.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Of course the characteristics will be different. This is why power/weight ratio is more about getting an estimate as opposed to real number. There are way too many variables involved. It ultimately comes down to average power during a run. If one knew that, THAT could be used to calculate power/weight ratio. Apparently, 0-60 is also affected by drivetrain layout too.

    Everything else being identical, mid-engine is supposed to be better than FR is supposed to be better than FF. But that doesn't make the power/weight ratio useless just less accurate (and accuracy isn't the idea behind it).

    As for high rpm versus low rpm, most people do think in terms of rpm versus HP as opposed to speed versus HP. 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 mph don't happen at the same rpm in every car.

    In my Accord, 38 mph happens at 5300 rpm, while in an S2000, it happens at 8000 rpm. What does it mean? S2000 is geared 50% shorter than my Accord. The Accord isn't getting to 5300 rpm sooner than S2000 gets to 8000 rpm.

    That is why it is better to relate power to speed (as opposed to rpm).
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    How much longer does Honda and Toyota get to skate by on their past before the realities of today start to be recognized?

    They just recalled the new Civic AGAIN - this time because a wheel could fall off. Camry and Accord have both had recent transmission problems including locking up at highway speeds. The Odyssey has been recalled at least 14 times. The brand new Toyota Tundra had catastrophic camshaft failures only months after launching.


    So what are you saying here? I should stop buying Accords, because someone else had transmission problems. I have been driving Automatic Accords for 16 years, and they haven't missed a beat. If I, or many other Accord owners had transmission problems, and were treated unfairly by Honda, do you think we would just keep buying them anyway. I know I wouldn't, and don't think many others would either. If there are hundreds of thousands of Honda and Toyota owners having problems and being treated unfairly, they would not continue to sell at the rate they do. The number of disgruntled owners must be much lower than you seem to imply. If a problem/recall is fixed in short order, to the satisfaction of the owner, it's no big deal.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What does it mean?

    It means it's an apples to oranges comparison.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    They are both fruits, so something is in common there. :)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    "That is the problem. A lot of people seem to buy based on nomenclature… “So, it has got a V6 or a four banger?” Two possible responses:
    “It is a V6 sire”… “I will take it”
    “It is a four cylinder sire but see it performs like a V6”… “four banger, eh?”


    Try substituting "Honda" for V6 and "Hyundai" for four banger. You will see why some people prefer Sonata compared to Accord and vice versa.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    We agree on this weight to HP ration.

    For 30 years or so the Insurance Services Office, as a guide to most insurance companies, rated cars as standard performance, intermediate performance and high performance, and surcharged intermediate & high performance cars.

    The difference in rating the cars was the weigth to horsepower ration. I forget where the lines were drawn from one category to the next.

    There was also a "sports car category" that considered wt/hp, wheel base and said sports cars were imported cars. But, that's a whole different discussion.

    Wt/HP does make a big difference in acceleration whether from a standing start or not.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Would the wonder car outsell the Camry and Accord? I seriously doubt it.

    I don't. I think such a car--which you described as being "head and shoulders above all competitors in the mid-sized market regardless of the yardstick used"--would sell in huge volumes, if manufacturing capacity were no problem (and it is now, with the plant closing in recent years). I think U.S. car buyers are hungry for a domestic car that can go toe-to-toe with the best in the mid-sized class. Remember when the Taurus was the #1 selling car in the U.S.? Since then, the Taurus and other American mid-sizers have slipped vs. the competition, but they are coming back. The Fusion and Milan are solid entries, as is the Aura. The Malibu looks on paper and in photos to be competitive, and has the same platform as the Aura.

    I think an American mid-sized car that matches your description would easily outsell Accord and Camry. Actually, I don't think that car would need to be as great as you described to beat Accord and Camry in sales. For example, I don't think it would take huge leaps for the Fusion/Milan and Aura to meet and even beat Accord and Camry overall. If you look at reviews of the Aura, it's mostly little quibbles that kept it out of first in the comparos. And put a nicer interior and Ford's best engines into the Fusion/Milan, and it's a winner over Camry and on par with or even better than Accord. Then it's just a matter of getting the word out to the buying public: "American mid-sized cars: we're ba-aaaack!"
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    A must read about the so-called sludge problem is in "Toyota Camry: Problems & Solutions - READ ONLY" message #4829 by Hylyner. Please check it out.

    New Accord looks nice, Camry is too, and the Fusion is also nice. Just depends on preferences, there is no real right answer for all.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If I, or many other Accord owners had transmission problems, and were treated unfairly by Honda, do you think we would just keep buying them anyway

    You're missing the point elroy. I'm only making a counterpoint to you and the others here who keep putting Toyota and Honda up on a pedestal and saying that they're perfect.

    They're not perfect and in some cases they're worse than other brands (lately). If you can't see that then you don't want to see it.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    "Typical Honda/Toyota dealer response to a problem:

    Dealer: "Yes, there is a problem with your vehicle. We are happy to fix it for you entirely free of charge (usually with no hassle). Also, Honda/Toyota has extended your warranty coverage on the affected part(s)." "



    Just had a auto tranny replaced at 43,000 miles in a Toyota. It was free of charge but they did not extend my warranty beyond the original 5yr/60,000. I have about 1 year or 17,000 warranty on this new tranny. Keeping my fingers crossed.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    You're missing the point elroy. I'm only making a counterpoint to you and the others here who keep putting Toyota and Honda up on a pedestal and saying that they're perfect.

    No, Honda and Toyota are not perfect. But if the problems were as widespread as you imply they are, people would not still be buying them. I bought my second Accord, because of prior experience with the first, which I assume other repeat Honda and Toyota customers have also. Problems with other brands are what made the Accord and Camry best sellers. So isn't it safe to assume that if the Accord and Camry were really having widespread problems, the sales numbers would go down? I have been reading the 2003-2007 problems and solutions board for a few years now, and there are only two people I can remember having transmission problems. If one transmission in 5000 goes out, I'll take those odds. Like you say, no car is perfect. A recall is not death sentence, contrary to what you would have us believe.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    > I think you have an unfair opinion of most of the workers in the USA. Most of the time they carry a lot of poor performing management.

    Please tell me what caused the failure or what happened, and tell us what model?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

Sign In or Register to comment.