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I concur. Getting to speed slowly and minimizing starts and stops is where you pick up mileage. There are lights on my commute that are timed to prevent you from making more than one light (so you have to stop for each one - even though they all turn green at the same time), so watching traffic try in vein flooring their poor little cars only to realize they are going to have to slam on their brakes as they miss the light just makes this sucking sound (I also think the county should have a class action lawsuit for making the road system as inefficient as possible, but that is another story).
Anyway, by anticipating starts and stops well in advance, you can be a lot lighter on the gas, brake, and clutch, and the fuel economy goes up in spades. I got 37 mpg in the '07 Accord EX last tank, and that is an 80/20 mix.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2006082.pdf
However, I do agree that IQS really doesn't impact long-term reliability, etc.
Better still, this mythical car would sell for $20,000 and have V6 power and come equipped with either a six-speed manual or an eight-speed automatic.
In short, this wonder car from Ford, GM or Chrysler would be head and shoulders above all competitors in the mid-size market regardless of the yardstick used.
Would the wonder car outsell the Camry and Accord? I seriously doubt it. The Camry and Accord have a customer base that just won't quit, legions of loyal owners. The wonder car would have to be on the market for five or 10 years before it would capture first place in sales.
The mid-size sedan market is indeed competitive but still dominated by the Camcords. That situation is not likely to change, regardless of what the competitors produce.
I'd hope not, there are no German brands included in the thread. There are, however, Koreans.
As a brand, Honda is seen as one of the best in quality not just here in America, but also in Europe. If you look at Top Gear’s compilation of best to worst brands, Honda is at #3 behind Skoda and Lexus. But these studies and surveys aren’t the reason for setting the benchmark, they backup personal experience. Outside of lifestyle buyers (who want to buy something unique/different for the sake of it), I can see why it would be a tall order to sway a lot of buyers. For that, GM, Ford and Chrysler will not only have to deliver cars like what you suggested, they will have to do it on a consistent basis for some time.
The problem with these three is that they rely too much on flash, little on substance. They try to match or beat existing Toyota/Honda products, but with every redesign, they get left behind. The idea should be to set benchmark, than follow one. And it won’t happen overnight. There was a time (1960s) when Chevrolet was selling Impala in numbers that combined sales of Accord and Camry (today) can’t match. What happened? GM didn’t keep up with the times. Accord, and then Camry, arrived. The rest is history.
My car ownership history:
1982 Celica Supra (bought used, served the purpose well)
1988 Corolla GT-S (bought used, served the purpose very well)
1992 Camry LE (bought used, had a few issues)
In fall 1997, I was ready for my first new car. I liked older Camry but hated the way 1997 was designed. Taurus and it also were the rental queens, and after plenty of seat time, I figured out that I couldn’t live with either of them. So, I didn’t even test drive these two, but considered plenty of others (Altima, Maxima, Intrigue, Grand Prix and Passat). 1998 Accord emerged as the winner, partly based on reputation and rest on driving experience, as well as it meeting my needs and the budget. Cars since then,
1999 Prelude
2000 Civic
2006 TL (shares time and garage with my 1998 Accord)
So, I did give a chance to others. In case of Intrigue, it was supposed to be an extremely competitive product, and it was. But it didn’t last. I travel and rent cars a lot. And after driving them all, I see no reason to get anything but another Accord. Although, the next Fit is a contender now, since I could use a frugal car with hatchback utility, with a sedan already in the garage.
I had it pegged as a solid Avalon/Maxima contender based on price and available features. The V6 model STARTS at over $30k. A model with dual climate control and leather will be in the $33k range.
Same with Accord. If I do go for one, it will be another EX-L for me (with NAV this time).
I've got a 4-cyl Accord and it has plenty of power, and is smooth to boot. Other people will still want more of each.
The key to performance is in gearing and how it utilizes the power curve. Passat has both. While most people are fixated with 0-60 runs (which largely explains the quest for more and more power), for me it is all about rolling acceleration.
I have a 130 hp Accord and find it plenty for my needs. Not 'fast' but adequate.
See it here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oqpmCiC_twg
“It is a V6 sire” “I will take it”
“It is a four cylinder sire but see it performs like a V6” “four banger, eh?”
I decided to look at C&D road test for Passat 2.0T and they have it for wagon (3492 lb). They did one for sedan but with the 280 HP/V6.
“Sixty mph arrives in 7.2 seconds. That’s 1.3 seconds slower than the V-6 Passat sedan, but it’s still quicker than a V-6 Ford Fusion.”
And it is not just 0-60 where it does well. Its 5-60 acceleration is impressive too, 7.7 seconds.
I value 5-60 more (and other rolling start acceleration tests that virtually no American automotive pros seem to care about) since it is more telling of a drivetrain's elasticity. Some European magazines will go as far as testing acceleration in different gears for same range of speeds (with manual transmission). We get 0-60 with high rpm clutch drop for armchair bragging rights.
Another reason is that some people don't want to rev their engine beyond 3,000 RPM. Me? I'll take it to 4k on a daily basis if I need or want to. In my youtube video, I am taking an interchange ramp (a 30 MPH ramp) and accelerating back to my cruising speed on the other interstate. I hit just under 4,000 RPM, but its no biggie in a Honda 4.
That might also explain why I get similar mileage in Accord and TL. While the TL is 1.8 times as powerful, I'm probably using 80% of Accord's potential, and only 50% of TL's.
They just recalled the new Civic AGAIN - this time because a wheel could fall off. Camry and Accord have both had recent transmission problems including locking up at highway speeds. The Odyssey has been recalled at least 14 times. The brand new Toyota Tundra had catastrophic camshaft failures only months after launching.
These things were unheard of a decade ago. I get that some of it is simply brand preference and I understand that - I have the same preferences for certain things. I just don't understand how things like that can be ignored by so many people for so long.
A mystery to be sure. The media would be all over these incidents like white on rice if the vehicles had Ford, General Motors or Chrysler written on them. Introduced in late 2005 as a 2006 model, the Ford Fusion has yet to have its first recall. Knock on wood.
I'm like you, I don't typically rev high except when merging, and even then, 4,500 or so is usually the top end of it. Also, my Accord in the youtube video I posted has a ratio of over 22 lbs per hp. The new Accord 4-cyl has a ratio near 17 lbs per hp, I believe.
I am sure most older people, like little ol' me, also equate the i4 in a domestic and a rough and rocky engine. It was only after Japans smoother and durable i4 engines in those little cars had come out, that people gave much consideration to an i4 engine. In domestics it was first a V8, then a compromise to get the V6 or inline 6. Of course, those which purchased say the slant 6 Valiant, may still be on their first engine.
You ain't kidding. Just yesterday I saw 2 Honda Civic coupes drove by senior citizens (at least 70 years old). I guess this is only in California, in Florida they'll either be in a CV/GM, Buick or Avalon.
Dealer: "Yes, there is a problem with your vehicle. We are happy to fix it for you entirely free of charge (usually with no hassle). Also, Honda/Toyota has extended your warranty coverage on the affected part(s)."
Typical Ford/GM/Chrsyler dealer response to a problem:
Dealer: "We could not find a problem with your vehicle." or "Here is a band-aid for your vehicle."
I am not familiar with the horsepower per pound statistic. I'm guessing that a lower number is better?
It still gives you an idea of what to expect from a car. People touted the Ford Edge's 260+ horses, but fail to mention that it weighs over 4,500 lbs (more than several 8 passenger vehicles I can think of). In return you get a car with decent acceleration, but not the rocket you'd think 260 horses would turn this midsize 5-passenger SUV into.
Where a car produces peak power doesn’t matter, because power should be matched to wheel speed (not rpm) since it takes gearing into account.
I don't think all "Honda guys" in this forum are created equal (we sure don't post like it). Give some of us some credit. I've posted the good AND the bad, and even I get ridiculed from some fellow Honda owners when I say my two Accords have not been "flawless."
We're not all burying our heads in the sand fellas!
As to the pros of a well-designed V6, yes, they are nice, powerful engines. But, if one is like me who keeps a car on average from 10 to 20 years, the maintenance differential between an I4 and a V6 is substantial, especially when it comes to out-of-warranty repair costs (either preventive or corrective). I used to turn wrenches for a living, and would much prefer working on a Inline engine over any V6, especially in the transverse configuration. Because of this, I opt for the Inline 4 every time.
But, if you have the money and/or lease rather than buy and keep a car for only a few years, go for the V6.
There are good dealers and bad dealers for all makes. Stop perpetuating a false stereotype.
Assuming apples to apples vehicle comparison. Not Tahoe vs S2000 for example.
Eh, what it did was allow for the motor to be tuned more for low end torque (and that is still very relative) and support the breathing requirements for high-rpm driving.
Any low displacement mutli-valve motor likes being revved more than being lugged. If you look at something GMs 3.8 pushrod, that thing feels really quick from 0-40 or so, but it is pretty much all over by 4500-5000 rpm. The 4 valve/cylinder motors don't even wake up until about 3500 rpm and they rock to about 7 or 8k.
I don't think I would want a vehicle bigger than the '07 Accord with a 4 cylinder. Its adequate in that car with a stick, but nothing earth shattering. The salesperson at the Saturn dealership pointed out that race cars have 4 cylinder motors, and then I pointed out how often the are rebuilt.
I'd like to point out that in the last comparison I read including the Altima and Aura, that the 4-cylinder Altima was faster than the V6 Aura.
We obviously have different ideas of "adequate," and thats ok. Adequate would be my 130 hp Accord. It gets me where I need to go without being floored when merging on the interstate. My 2006 Accord 4-cyl is much quicker than that car.
Then again, I'm not the average 20 year old
But Let's talk about HOnda and the transmission problems through the decades. Would you rather be one of the people for whom they graciously replace a transmission with the same, flawed transmission at 40K and then at 75K and extend the warranty to 100K. But wait a minute: the Honda is touted by some as a 250K mile car with no problem. SO now you're stuck with a flawed transmission design but your warranty is gone at 100K so the next replacements are on you.
Or do you want to talk about the people in Edmund's discussions reporting about delay, lag, flare, in their now Camry transmission and the dealers act like they're never heard the complaint before and the owner just needs to adjust to the car's driving style, or the car has to learn the customer's style, etc. The thread has gone through Toyota lexus models, and the Avalon, and now the Camry.
Yup that's customer service. Let's get real. A couple of proHonda posters in one thread stated that even their cars, with which they are very satisfied, have had problems. All cars have some problems. Some are mitigated by what the dealer or company does for the problem. But please don't try the stereotype misconception.
And the topic is features of the cars and practical comparisons not the stereotypes from the past and present.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Everything else being identical, mid-engine is supposed to be better than FR is supposed to be better than FF. But that doesn't make the power/weight ratio useless just less accurate (and accuracy isn't the idea behind it).
As for high rpm versus low rpm, most people do think in terms of rpm versus HP as opposed to speed versus HP. 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 mph don't happen at the same rpm in every car.
In my Accord, 38 mph happens at 5300 rpm, while in an S2000, it happens at 8000 rpm. What does it mean? S2000 is geared 50% shorter than my Accord. The Accord isn't getting to 5300 rpm sooner than S2000 gets to 8000 rpm.
That is why it is better to relate power to speed (as opposed to rpm).
They just recalled the new Civic AGAIN - this time because a wheel could fall off. Camry and Accord have both had recent transmission problems including locking up at highway speeds. The Odyssey has been recalled at least 14 times. The brand new Toyota Tundra had catastrophic camshaft failures only months after launching.
So what are you saying here? I should stop buying Accords, because someone else had transmission problems. I have been driving Automatic Accords for 16 years, and they haven't missed a beat. If I, or many other Accord owners had transmission problems, and were treated unfairly by Honda, do you think we would just keep buying them anyway. I know I wouldn't, and don't think many others would either. If there are hundreds of thousands of Honda and Toyota owners having problems and being treated unfairly, they would not continue to sell at the rate they do. The number of disgruntled owners must be much lower than you seem to imply. If a problem/recall is fixed in short order, to the satisfaction of the owner, it's no big deal.
It means it's an apples to oranges comparison.
“It is a V6 sire” “I will take it”
“It is a four cylinder sire but see it performs like a V6” “four banger, eh?”
Try substituting "Honda" for V6 and "Hyundai" for four banger. You will see why some people prefer Sonata compared to Accord and vice versa.
For 30 years or so the Insurance Services Office, as a guide to most insurance companies, rated cars as standard performance, intermediate performance and high performance, and surcharged intermediate & high performance cars.
The difference in rating the cars was the weigth to horsepower ration. I forget where the lines were drawn from one category to the next.
There was also a "sports car category" that considered wt/hp, wheel base and said sports cars were imported cars. But, that's a whole different discussion.
Wt/HP does make a big difference in acceleration whether from a standing start or not.
I don't. I think such a car--which you described as being "head and shoulders above all competitors in the mid-sized market regardless of the yardstick used"--would sell in huge volumes, if manufacturing capacity were no problem (and it is now, with the plant closing in recent years). I think U.S. car buyers are hungry for a domestic car that can go toe-to-toe with the best in the mid-sized class. Remember when the Taurus was the #1 selling car in the U.S.? Since then, the Taurus and other American mid-sizers have slipped vs. the competition, but they are coming back. The Fusion and Milan are solid entries, as is the Aura. The Malibu looks on paper and in photos to be competitive, and has the same platform as the Aura.
I think an American mid-sized car that matches your description would easily outsell Accord and Camry. Actually, I don't think that car would need to be as great as you described to beat Accord and Camry in sales. For example, I don't think it would take huge leaps for the Fusion/Milan and Aura to meet and even beat Accord and Camry overall. If you look at reviews of the Aura, it's mostly little quibbles that kept it out of first in the comparos. And put a nicer interior and Ford's best engines into the Fusion/Milan, and it's a winner over Camry and on par with or even better than Accord. Then it's just a matter of getting the word out to the buying public: "American mid-sized cars: we're ba-aaaack!"
New Accord looks nice, Camry is too, and the Fusion is also nice. Just depends on preferences, there is no real right answer for all.
You're missing the point elroy. I'm only making a counterpoint to you and the others here who keep putting Toyota and Honda up on a pedestal and saying that they're perfect.
They're not perfect and in some cases they're worse than other brands (lately). If you can't see that then you don't want to see it.
Dealer: "Yes, there is a problem with your vehicle. We are happy to fix it for you entirely free of charge (usually with no hassle). Also, Honda/Toyota has extended your warranty coverage on the affected part(s)." "
Just had a auto tranny replaced at 43,000 miles in a Toyota. It was free of charge but they did not extend my warranty beyond the original 5yr/60,000. I have about 1 year or 17,000 warranty on this new tranny. Keeping my fingers crossed.
No, Honda and Toyota are not perfect. But if the problems were as widespread as you imply they are, people would not still be buying them. I bought my second Accord, because of prior experience with the first, which I assume other repeat Honda and Toyota customers have also. Problems with other brands are what made the Accord and Camry best sellers. So isn't it safe to assume that if the Accord and Camry were really having widespread problems, the sales numbers would go down? I have been reading the 2003-2007 problems and solutions board for a few years now, and there are only two people I can remember having transmission problems. If one transmission in 5000 goes out, I'll take those odds. Like you say, no car is perfect. A recall is not death sentence, contrary to what you would have us believe.
Please tell me what caused the failure or what happened, and tell us what model?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,