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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    You missed my point. I am not saying the 4 cyl Honda engine is anything...good or bad or indifferent. What I pointed out is the poster stated.."hey has anybody noticed Honda and Toyota seem to be having more quality problems lately". And, that this wouldn't have been the case 10 years ago. I said in turn that everyone was so wrapped up comparing notes about how good their 4 cylinder Honda is they didn't have time to post the expected denials.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So isn't it safe to assume that if the Accord and Camry were really having widespread problems, the sales numbers would go down?

    Nobody said they were having "widespread problems". Why does everything have to be black or white with you? I just said they're not perfect - I didn't say they were bad.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, the sales numbers for the Accord have gone down in recent times (even with larger incentives), although they are still very strong in this class. I think that's a sign that Honda's brand loyalty is so strong that it forgives some missteps, even biggies like the auto tranny problem.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    And in case you were wondering, the Mazda6 is still King of the Bongo!

    Vid of new Mazda6

    Nice evolution from the current design... still sleek and muscular but more chiseled. I'd have to agree with my uncle (a lexus ls430 and RV driver) who thinks Mazda has the best design theme for their cars right now of all the non-exotics.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    True. Every brand has loyalists who will continue to buy no matter what. I also think Camry has had to increase incentives and fleet sales to maintain their sales lead.

    The real test will be when the 09 Fusion comes out. That's when you'll start getting repeat buyers and leasors. Right now every Fusion sale is a new customer. I bet at least 50% of Camcord sales are to previous owners.

    You also have a much improved Kia lineup and a new Mazda6 coming out next year. Should be interesting.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    So it's bad to be a repeat Accord customer, but good to be a repeat Fusion customer?
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Time for a reality check...nobody said that the problems the Accord has is widespread(except for their longish-for-this-segment braking from 60-0 for the pre-08 models). People are just saying that Honda has had probs just like everyone else ... case in point, look at the Civic recall that just happened. No it's not a death sentence (no need to get overly dramatic), but it shows that they aren't perfect either. In fact JD Powers and Consumer Reports show that the Honda has on average about 3 probs per vehicle over a 5 year period. Yes this is better than average which is around 4 problems per vehicle, but it's not lightyears ahead of other cars in this class.

    And personally, if I have to take an extra day without my car out of 1800 days (five years) with my free loaner from Mazda as part of my warranty, that's ok with me if I get a car that looks better, drives better, brakes better, and has more cargo carrying ability while costing thousands less. But some people will like the Accord's softer ride, a more stately interior, more comfy seats, or larger interior. But the difference in reliabilty wasn't significant enough for me to make a decision based on it if I use data coming from both consumer reports and jd powers.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Many of you are reacting to things that are not being said! Let's calm down, think about what you are reading and quit shooting from the hip - we'll have a lot better conversation that way.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    How realistic are these figures? Are they for a short hwy trip, or are they for a long distances including several tanks full? To really compare/know mileages it is nice to know, i.e. over 1000mi I averaged x mpg, not the I put in gas and went 100mi,or less and averaged xx mpg. I am certain that every vehicle here could "average" over 30mpg if trips were less than 50 miles, downhill, with tail winds, no loads, etc. You get the idea. Average mpg should be looked at realistically over the course of several tanks. If that is the case, then where are all of these great mpg figures? I personally don't think many of these vehicles AVERAGE mid 30's mpg, even hwy. Sorry, I just don't believe most of these figures. I am thinking of 6cyl, not 4's. van :confuse:
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    So it's bad to be a repeat Accord customer, but good to be a repeat Fusion customer?

    I didn't read any "good" or "bad" inferences in Allen Kirby's post, merely that many Camcord sales are based on satisfied repeat customers. Satisfied previous customers are not possible with the Fusion because 2006 was the first model year. However, the 2009 Fusion may well entice satisfied owners to purchase a newer version.

    Satisfied customers are a good thing for all manufacturers and certainly do help explain the high sales totals for Camry and Accord, which are fine automobiles, generally.

    Many, many diverse factors are involved in the car-buying-decision process. I prefer the styling of the Fusion to everything else in the mid-size sedan segment and believe it has just as many creature comforts. The Ford, Lincoln, Mercury dealer in our city, Sherwood of Salisbury, Md., is aces in my book. That was another positive factor in the Fusion's favor.

    If FoMoCo continues to improve the Fusion, Milan and MKZ, then it stands to reason that satisfied owners are likely to become repeat customers, thereby boosting sales. Ford is in the unenviable position of having to "win back" some customers. The Fusion trio is likely to do just that. These are fine automobiles, in my book, and extremely competitive with everything in their class.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I didn't read any "good" or "bad" inferences in Allen Kirby's post, merely that many Camcord sales are based on satisfied repeat customers. Satisfied previous customers are not possible with the Fusion because 2006 was the first model year. However, the 2009 Fusion may well entice satisfied owners to purchase a newer version.

    Exactly! I guess it's hard to read and comprehend some things when you're wearing blinders.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    That's why I emphasised "Typical response," meaning there are exceptions. Of course the dealer plays a big part, but certainly not the biggest.

    On my last domestic I had three separate examples of the manufacturer not wanting to admit to a major problem. (Transmission troubles, rear diff troubles, engine cranking troubles).

    That's where I'm coming from. I had a great dealer, but they can only be as good as the manufacturer. They just don't have enough money to keep fixing customers cars when the manufacturer won't stand behind.

    And in my recent experience, and the recent experiences of my extended family members in different parts of the state, there is a major difference between the various manufacturers.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Okay, that is your and your family's experience. There's no reason to extrapolate that to becoming everyone's experiences.

    Let's talk about the cars themselves, okay?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I agree. After every service, I have received survey forms. The sales person and the dealership seem to care about it a lot and will give me a courtesy call without fail to fill it up (as nicely as I can) because, apparently, Honda takes it seriously. I haven’t been disappointed at all, so it didn’t matter to me.

    OTOH, I have been reading about a guy who has had a tough time with a dealership. He mailed the survey form to Honda stating his experience (which was not good). A few days later, the dealership was telling him that he should not have done that. So, this guy’s voice made it to Honda and they took it seriously, and contacted the dealership.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Just had a auto tranny replaced at 43,000 miles in a Toyota. It was free of charge but they did not extend my warranty beyond the original 5yr/60,000. I have about 1 year or 17,000 warranty on this new tranny. Keeping my fingers crossed.

    It does not make sense to me why Toyota won't offer you the same warranty. A friend of mine with his Honda had transmission trouble a few years ago, and he got brand new warranty on it (back then it was 3 years/36K miles).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And the same thing happened with me and my Fusion.

    While some mfrs and dealers may be better than others you simply can't say one does this and the others don't just because of YOUR experience.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It was a Tundra and it wouldn't shift out of first gear. There was absolutely no hints before it happened that there was anything wrong. In fact, I had just got through mentioning to the person that was with me that it had been virtually trouble free for four years. Anyway, took it in the next morning and they called two hours later and said it needed a new tranny. No cost like I said and they gave me a brand new Camry to drive for a week. I wasn't complaining about the service, just responding to your statement that Honda and Toyota would automatically extend the warranty on an item like this and it wasn't the case in my experieince.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    It will..... as you say, trump the Camcords in about 5 to 10 years once the "wonder domestic" car proves it's own wonderousness by lasting 5 to 10 years.

    More than likely this wonder car will turn into a rotten mess as it ages..... but yes, a wonder car that is class leading by every measure would outsell the Camcords in 5 to 10 years time, if it proved to be as reliable.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The two cars in my garage (1998 Honda Accord and 2006 Acura TL) have a combined 211K miles on them. Virtually every gas tank has been scrutinized. Here is how it goes.
    Fill up tank
    Reset Trip Computer
    Drive until the low-fuel warning is on
    Refuel and calculate

    In case of TL, I also compare it indicated average mpg in the trip computer. I’m surprised that people find getting 25-26 mpg (in mixed driving) in a V6 sedan to be unrealistic. One guy simply won’t believe that TL would get any better than 29 mpg on highway but that I was getting 32 mpg at over 70 mph. The only way I could prove it over the internet was via pictures, with an open invitation to see it happening in person. :)

    If not for a daily occurrence that is traffic jams (on the way in and back to work), my cars might actually do a little better. I don’t remember having posted this, but the longest no (gas) stop trip I have taken was in my Accord from Dallas to Memphis (507 miles driven). The distance was covered in 6 hours and 45 minutes, including a 5-7 minute rest area stop. I refueled next morning with 15.8 gallons, and that computed to 32 mpg, probably the best mileage I have seen in any car with a very high average speed.

    Coincidentally, the best I have done in the (lot more powerful) TL is 72.5 mph and 32 mpg over a distance of about 270 miles from Houston to Dallas. The car actually averaged 29 mpg over 695 miles which includes 80-85% highway driving, rest city.

    If my cars can get low 30s at speeds that I drive in, getting mid-30s might be possible in the new Accord (both, I-4 and V6), but I won’t know for sure until having tried it myself.

    PS. I just remembered having posted this log couple of weeks ago from my last two road trips in fuel economy thread.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    These things were unheard of a decade ago. I get that some of it is simply brand preference and I understand that - I have the same preferences for certain things. I just don't understand how things like that can be ignored by so many people for so long.

    Perhaps they are ignored because it hasn't happend to their Accord or Civic yet. In fact, not only has it not happened to hardly anyone's own vehicle, but I've never seen a wheel fall off a Civic, anywhere, at anytime, in my entire life!

    Your making a mountain out of a mole hill.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    If my cars can get low 30s at speeds that I drive in, getting mid-30s might be possible in the new Accord (both, I-4 and V6), but I won’t know for sure until having tried it myself.


    Being that it will only achieve it's advertised 29 mpg using the VCM programming, you had better plan on proving mid-30s on some flat land. Add hills and you'll be in V6 mode a lot I'd wager. Seeing if Honda found a way around that is what I think is yet to be seen.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I don't think all "Honda guys" in this forum are created equal (we sure don't post like it). Give some of us some credit. I've posted the good AND the bad, and even I get ridiculed from some fellow Honda owners when I say my two Accords have not been "flawless."

    Just for the record I was not one to ridicule you for calling your Honda's less than flawless. I was just curious in asking you what you found to be the flaws with them... I figured they'd be minor, or else you wouldn't be a so-called "Honda" guy.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Then you got cheated! You need to go back to your Toyota dealer and demand a 3/36K tranny warranty (as a minimum) from the date of install.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Well I've never actually seen the grand canyon in person, either, but I'm pretty sure it exists.

    The NHTSA doesn't issue recalls for non-existent problems.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Well... This Honda owner had their tranny replaced after the warranty expired free of charge, and the warranty was extended 3/36K from the date of install.

    If they had not done both of those things free of charge, I'd be blasting Honda almost as bad as I do Chrysler. Also, Honda gave me a free rental car while I was getting my tranny replaced.

    I don't see too many people forgiving a bad tranny unless the manufacturer stands behind it; Honda did, Dodge didn't.
    It was night and day, black and white.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    More than likely this wonder car will turn into a rotten mess as it ages

    Please stop making these ridiculous statements. They're not true.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I was just pointing out that the problem is obviously more of an isolated incident that lawyers have convinced Honda to get scared about so you have a recall....
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    So you have proof that cars made today or in recent years won't rot as they age (over 5 years).

    Can I borrow your crystal ball?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Our 2007 SEL AWD Ford Fusion has a six-way power seat for the driver and a manual seat for the passenger. Are there any mid-price, mid-size sedans in this segment that have power assist for both seats? What about eight-way, 10-way power seats? Memory seats are only available in the luxury models, right?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The new EPA ratings don't make sense to me at all. The old was easy to meet or beat.
    1998 Honda Accord EX-L/AT (Overall Mileage Ratings)
    Old EPA: 26 mpg (City/Hwy: 23/30)
    New EPA: 23 mpg (City/Hwy: 20/27)
    My Experience: 26 mpg (32-33 mpg at over 70 mph)

    2006 Acura TL/AT (Overall Mileage Ratings)
    Old EPA: 24 mpg (City/Hwy: 20/29)
    New EPA: 21 mpg (City/Hwy: 18/26)
    My Experience: 25-26 mpg (32 mpg at over 70 mph)

    So these cars do way better than EPA rating on highway. In fact, it is easy to get EPA's new highway rating with 50% city driving thrown in! As a matter of fact, my 1998 Accord has NEVER done worse than 23 mpg on a tank (and that happened when I lived only 2 miles from work). But the new EPA rating says 20 mpg.

    If the trend stays, the new Accord V6 might actually get 27-28 mpg in mixed driving with highway mileage in mid 30s. If it were rated using old standard, the EPA rating would be 22/32 mpg (-1 mpg compared to my 1998 Accord in city and +2 mpg compared to my Accord on highway).

    As for hills etc, the second generation VCM should do better since now it won't rely on I-3 mode as much (which is likely to be used primarily for low speed cruising around town). V4 is probably going to be the norm, unless driver demands power. So, fuel economy should be more like an I-4.

    Honda has now replaced the VCM in 2008 Odyssey with this new version. The old system engaged less since I-3 was often less capable to motivate a 4600 lb vehicle. V4 should have less trouble.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well I've never actually seen the grand canyon in person, either, but I'm pretty sure it exists

    I've never seen Grand Canyon myself either but based on the people who've actually seen it, 90% said it's great and 10% said it's not worth the hype.

    Based on that until I've seen it myself I'll tend to believe the "perception" which has the 90% to back it up.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's great that Honda replaced the defective Accord trannies free of charge, but... what is exceptional about that? The recall was issued well within the Accord's powertrain warranty period. It was done under a NHTSA recall. In both circumstances, it would be unthinkable for the automaker--Honda or anyone else--to charge for fixing the problem.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So you have proof that cars made today or in recent years won't rot as they age (over 5 years).

    I've driven the following vehicles:
    1990 ranger - 5 years
    1995 ranger - 5 years
    2000 Lincoln LS - 6 years
    1999 Expedition - 5 years

    None of those vehicles had any out of warranty repair costs (and I drove them at least 2 years past the warranty). The day they were traded in there were no shakes or rattles. Nothing was broken or worn out or faded or cracked.

    You're basing your opinions on 10-20 year old vehicles - that simply isn't the case anymore.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    And the same thing happened with me and my Fusion.

    So your tranny died in your wonderful Fusion?

    I'm curious to hear about this story? After warranty? And they stepped up?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you're betting on a football game, do you bet on the team that won the super bowl last year but is 5-5 this year or do you go with the team that finished 8-8 last year but is 10-0 this year? At what point does current performance outweigh past performance?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Look, a Honda and Toyota is barely broken in at 5 or 6 years old!!!!

    How many miles did you drive in those 5 to 6 years?

    I am talking about how a car operate in years 6-10. Those are the critical years, as every car will begin to have problems, but it is the amount/quantity and severity of those problems that counts!

    Some cars rot and fall apart, literally. You repair one thing, and then another, and then another, and then another.

    Some get a couple minor repairs and are well on their way to 200K miles with them, before they will need more repairs again.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If I am betting on a football game I'll bet on teams that almost guaranteed that it'll make the playoff.

    Let's go a step further, if you are betting on college football, would you bet on traditional SEC, Big 10 powerhouses and USC or Fresno State and Louisville?

    Let's talk pre-season because that's more like buying a new car.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Well.... depends if that 5-5 team is made up of all-star veterans that are the same "players" as years before. Also, is that 10-0 team still the same players from years before, or did they recruit and entirely different team? All rookies?? Watch out!

    I'd take a 'dream team of aging veterans" any day over a team of outstanding rookies when it comes to playoff time. Playoff time is what counts, regular season is meaningless (except to get you into the playoffs or other home field advantages and seating position)

    That's why The Chicago Bulls won not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, but 6 Championships with MJ and SP.

    It's why the Patriots tore the shreds out of the Chargers last year in the playoffs, even though the Chargers were 14-2 and New England had a mediocre regular season.

    Honda looks to be like the Patriots right now, and Toyota perhaps is Indianapolis. The Chargers are off to a slow start this year... maybe they are Saturn.... ;)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Honda performed the so-called "recall" fix on my vehicle at about 32K miles. At 42K miles the tranny started to exhibit signs of problems. And they replaced it at that time; free of charge.

    The recall may have had something to do with the problem, or may not have had anything to do with it.... who knows..

    The dealer did "claim" my tranny looked as good as new when they took photographs of it at 32K....
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Falcons are like Mitsubishi - fading fast... :sick:

    Bears are like Hyundai - good for a while then flat.

    49s are like Ford/GM/Chevy - good, then horrible then up and coming.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Honda looks to be like the Patriots right now

    Well, they are arrogant - I'll give them that one. But I didn't think Honda was stealing Toyota's product plans with a video camera.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If I had said I drove a Ford for 10 years with no problems you'd say they fall apart after 11 years.

    I hope Honda and Toyota don't think the domestics are a threat. It will make it that much easier to surpass them.
  • mz3smz3s Member Posts: 17
    "If I, or many other Accord owners had transmission problems, and were treated unfairly by Honda, do you think we would just keep buying them anyway."

    Ummm yes. Just as many people bought American makes 1-2-3 times and got burnt each time. They are better though, and truth in point is that my buddy's broke down tranny accord sits as he waits for his 08 to be delivered...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    If I had said I drove a Ford for 10 years with no problems you'd say they fall apart after 11 years.

    No, actually, I'd never say that. I think 10 years with 200K is a reasonable lifetime for a quality automobile. After that point, the rest is gravy and a bonus.

    One of the main reasons people don't keep their vehicles 10 years usually is probably because domestics don't last that long.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I hope Honda and Toyota don't think the domestics are a threat. It will make it that much easier to surpass them.

    I don't believe that will be the case. I have seen more TV ads for Toyota and Honda in the last month than the total for the previous nine months or so. The Honda Accord ads are almost as numerous as the Toyota Tundra ads.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Haha, I knew someone would bring up the Camera cheating with the Patriots. Perhaps others have done the same thing and not been caught yet?

    I suppose stealing Toyota's product plans would be a "competitive advantage."

    I don't think Honda is arrogant however.... they just know they got a good thing going.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    A squabble fest this does not need to be!!

    Either post about the specifics of the vehicles in this segment and knock off the chest-beating or go find some other boxing arena. Please!
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    No, actually, I'd never say that. I think 10 years with 200K is a reasonable lifetime for a quality automobile. After that point, the rest is gravy and a bonus.

    One of the main reasons people don't keep their vehicles 10 years usually is probably because domestics don't last that long.


    I've never owned an automobile that had 100,000 miles on the odometer, let alone 200,000. My wife and I are, however, a three-Ford family. In addition to our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion, we own and drive a 1997 Ford Thunderbird, 86,000 miles, and a 2000 Ford Focus station wagon, 94,000 miles.

    Our generally good experience with these two Ford products was a factor in our decision to buy a Fusion, as opposed to an Accord or Camry. Hopefully, the Fusion will serve us as well as the T-Bird and Focus. We have, in the past, also owned three Mazda products and they were fine, too.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I think the median age of an average car on the road is now 8-9 years. But that doesn’t talk about miles. I have seen older cars than my now ten year old Accord but with about half the miles on them. I do drive a lot though. My 2006 TL is flirting with 30K mile mark already, while the Accord is at 182K. If I ignore couple of my other cars as well as all rentals, I have averaged over 21K miles/year over last ten years and this may have to do with the choice to live in an exceptionally large metro area (Dallas-Ft Worth) where 15-20 miles is kinda "in my neighborhood".

    Besides the Accord, two of my other cars were well above 100K mark. The last I heard of my 1988 Corolla GT-S, it had 168K miles on the odometer and that was about 6-7 years ago (I had bought it with about 87K miles and sold it with a virtually flawless 138K miles). Interestingly enough, the only car that I didn’t drive into that mark was the only one that gave me some trouble (1992 Camry). The GT-S replaced it.

    At this point, I can’t imagine cars with major trouble spots at less than 100K miles. And I’m not talking recalls as I would rather have that than have nagging issues that make me pay for repairs, the kind of story two of my VW owning buddies have had to share over last year.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    we own and drive a 1997 Ford Thunderbird

    Be careful, Boz! That 10 year old Ford is rotting to pieces and will fall apart any day now. :blush:
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