Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Midsize Sedans 2.0

18687899192544

Comments

  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    If they're selling fast, you will, or within 500 of it
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, I would never pay sticker for a car, but for the short term you'll pay much closer to sticker on a 2008 Accord than you will on an Optima. For one thing, forget about rebates or to-buyer incentives on the new Accord for awhile. And the steep discounts you're seeing now on the close-'em-out old Accords? Forget those, too. It's a new car, and ballgame, with the Accord now. As the guy from Men's Wearhouse says, "I guarantee it." ;)
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I had the same problem when I bought my altima. The dealers just weren't having any problem moving them off the lot, and wouldn't come down much. Some of the dealerships I sent emails to wouldn't even respond. But, I knew it would be like that going in.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Have you researched the Optima? You might be surprised. The automotive press' consensus is that it's a better car than the Sonata, at least in I4 trim. It has received strong reviews from MT (a 2007 COTY finalist), C/D (ranked just below the Accord and new Altima in the last mid-sizer comparo, with the comment that it out-Toyota'd the Camry; and CR has it (the I4) ranked above the Sonata (and the Camry LE, and Legacy, and Mazda6, and Fusion/Milan etc.) and one point behind the Accord. It handles better than the Sonata, has a nicer interior, has a 5AT vs. the 4AT on the Sonata I4s, and is shorter than the Sonata yet has almost as much interior room.

    So while the Optima is not seen as being the best of the class, it is viewed as being a very good mid-sized sedan and superior to some cars that are seen as standards in this class, e.g. the Camry. And of course it has the long Kia warranty. That makes it an intriguing buy for someone who doesn't mind paying about $7000 or more less for a car that doesn't have every attribute of an Accord or Altima, but is a solid, well-rounded mid-sized car.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I would say the i4 16" wheels are more than large enough for the i4 engine version. Why would you want the 17"?

    Wheel size diameter is an aesthetics issue, for the most part. The only time its not is when companies put random obscure tire sizes like 205/60R16 on their vehicles to crush any hopes of actually finding any kind of a performance tire. Most other vehicles use a 205/55R16 that can be found in types from mild to wild.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree a 16" tire is fine for a family sedan. But with the Optima LX, Kia makes you buy a package that includes 17" alloys in order to get ABS and ESC. :mad: That's the one thing that really bugs me about the Optima. And the fact that the IIHS hasn't done a side crash test on it yet.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Have you researched the Optima? You might be surprised. The automotive press' consensus is that it's a better car than the Sonata, at least in I4 trim.

    I had an Optima for a rental car a few months ago, I found it adequate in every way while carrying 4 adults on in-town trips in Michigan. I also had a Sonata V6 that felt powerful, if a little bland, but totally adequate to run around Cincy.

    Neither vehicle made me want to run out and buy it right then (of course the Accord didn't either, my folks did instead lol).
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    My wife has the four with add-on (but nice) leather, the appearance package--crippled dic, nice interior lighting, 17 inch Michelins-- for $16,100. Taking off the differences that should figure in at mid-fourteens for a base LS with automatic.

    We shopped the Fusion/Milan and Sonata four most carefully before buying

    Friend just bought a Sonata, not sure what he paid as he had two cars to trade and he might not be as frugal as I am in driving a bargain. Just drove his car for a few blocks and it seems more comfortable. Frankly I'd prefer the Sonata (short drive) and last gen Malibu Maxx (my personal drive) when it comes to comfort. My wife doesn't mind the Optima a bit for comfort but I'm roughly a foot taller. The Optima is only about a cubic foot smaller than the Sonata but it has more headroom. Who needs eight inches of above the head room if five inches is adequate. More important to get the leg room.

    The Optima's platform is closer to the Elantra than a Sonata (struts v. links), but seems sportier in handling (not important to me)-- this is probably my 17 inch Michelins v. his 16 inch Michelin Energies (from experience Energies are lousy oem tires at least in my 01 Elantra).

    As far as the GM electric steering. It's part of the reason why GM cars got good gas mileage. Vagueness and expensive repairs were negatives. I don't mind the GM steering at all but can notice it after I drive the Optima. Same thing with the engine. Doesn't bother me but the Optima's four is smoother and revs better than the Malibu's six (which does get as good mileage), so if I was doing short term comparisons it would bother me.

    I haven't done a careful check but I think GM cars 08 EPA estimated mileages v. 07 has gone down less than the typical GM car. Now maybe somebody can do the research and prove me right or wrong on this.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    the appearance package--crippled dic, nice interior lighting, 17 inch Michelins-- for $16,100.

    The appearance package has nice interior lighting, 17" tires and WHAT?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    DIC= driver information center

    LOL Long night
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    No oil life monitor (shared with lots of cars), no MPG: huh?

    Sonata owners-- a quick drive of my friends Sonata indicated only one trip computer-- did I get that right? If so, that's about as dim as missing the MPG readout.

    BTW-- Kia figures miles to empty so gas mileage is easily doable.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    If you mean a trip computer vs a trip odometer, the trip computer does have the ability to show avg MPG.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I think you're saying...

    That the Sonata has a trip computer that shows average MPG (the Optima doesn't have this)-- the computer in most cars is usually optimistic though. That's why I need two trip odometers. One for measuring trips, one to accurately measure mileage between fillups.

    Unless my quick look at the Sonata was in err, it looked to me like the Sonata only had one trip odometer. Correct?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ya know it is pretty simple math to do in one's own head. Once on empty, you have say three gallons left, and you get 30 MPG, it has to be up to 90 miles left. Not a bad thing though to have a little computer to let ya know from a half tank, how far you may be able to go. But then again, you become one with the car and just can do it in your head after a few months time. And the new cars can usually do some 360 to 450 miles on a tank anyway, so you should be close to a gas station at one point or another - just a thought.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Why not get the 'o7 then? If you do not need the larger 2008, just go for the 2007 and get the deal. You may avoid the first year out blues too. I hear of some 6-4-3 engine now for the V6. Sounds like possible trouble to me. And I do not need the car to be an inch taller, nor three inches longer, as it is pretty big already. And yes, the new one may be $500 to no more than $1,000 off, if it becomes popular. New car, ya never know.
    I think I have seen a couple of those Optimas around. I don't think Kia is selling too many in my area, though other styles, like their SUV and minivans seem to sell here. Guess it is a good car. I did not research it, or take any test drives in one. You may want to test drive a V6 SE Accord some day on a twisty road. And it has very good passing speed and a good launch off the line. Interior is first class. That said, there is a lot of good mid-sized cars of all brands out there, and little if any are rated anywhere near poor these days. Seems you can not go too wrong. Close-out i4 Sonatas for $16K = wow, that is priced low :shades: With 27% going to fleet, resale may suck a bit.
    L
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I live in the Midwest. Few twisty roads here. And as I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I don't need the power of a V6. So I'm not willing to pay more for the Accord V6, whether it's a 2007 or 2008. And to me the 2007 Accord is not that great a car, for what I'm looking for in a mid-sized car--and certainly not worth paying thousands more of my money than for a car like the Optima, Sonata, or Elantra. I'll be keeping my next car in the family for at least 10 years, so I'm more concerned about up-front costs than resale value. Also, I'm not concerned about not seeing the same car that I drive on every street corner. In fact, I kind of like the fact that I don't see my current drive, an Elantra GT 5-door, everywhere I look. :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Do people in the mid-west drive Subaru's? Seems like all wheel drive in snow country would be a good thing. Just a thought.
    L
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Also, I'm not concerned about not seeing the same car that I drive on every street corner. In fact, I kind of like the fact that I don't see my current drive, an Elantra GT 5-door, everywhere I look.

    All those Accords you see on every corner were bought for good reasons. Maybe there are a few good reasons why you don't see so many Elantras.

    How many "other people" are driving a certain car should have no affect on what you buy, one way or the other, IMO. That's allowing others to have influence on what you drive.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Do people in the mid-west drive Subaru's? Seems like all wheel drive in snow country would be a good thing. Just a thought.

    People in the midwest originally from other places buy Subarus :P
    I don't know, we got AWD and a wagon with a manual transmission for no price penalty and very slight fuel economy penalty over the Accord, which was our benchmark at the time.

    The Subaru feels much sportier to me than the Accord, but the Accord seems to have much more room in the back seat, even with the infant seat in the middle. Oh and the LATCH system works better in the Honda too.
    The Subaru handling is a lot more fun, it is phenomenal in the snow, and can tote 2700 lbs. I think once we get into child seats from infant seats, the differences will be less significant.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The Legacy is pretty good looking. Well compared to some rather odd looking stuff from Subaru over the years, the new Legacy is 100% improved. :shades: Nice looks, and all wheel drive sound like a good combo for snow country. Then there is the Fusion / Milan, which as posted here over and over again available in all wheel drive. I prefer the Milan look over the Fusion, but both are good ( well big butt, but good enough ) looking cars. Guess the new Mazda6 is coming soon? Seems like in the past they overpriced them, then had to discount them. Sort of an old GM thing to do. Oh no, here come the replies on that one. :blush: I would hope GM people all have a sense of humor. During ownership of those cars, it was the only thing which kept me from exploding from time to time, with every service shop en devour to remedy this n' that. So, I guess it is OK to rib them a little.
    L
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    How many "other people" are driving a certain car should have no affect on what you buy

    Why not? nothing wrong with wanting to stand out, or be different.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So the fact that few people thought enough about your car, to buy it, is a positive thing? Buying a car because no one else wants it, just doesn't seem logical to me.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    you say few, but are probably taking about 10's of thousands. It's just nice to be different, stand out a little. I don't think it should be the deciding factor, but its also nice to not have the same cookie cutter car that everybody else is driving. and probably because everybody else is driving. some people lead, some people follow.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I agree, going with the "norm" has always been a turnoff for me which is why I'm a bit against the Camcord. On the other hand I have to realize that this isn't normal behavior by definition. The vast majority just go with one of the big two over and over again. This has resulted in the Accord being far less ahead of the curve than it was twenty years ago (Camry was always well done but conservative), but you can't blame Honda for doing what's in their financial interest.

    This doesn't apply to the present generation Civic which is a big change and (could be argued) quite daring. Guess I am getting old because I for one don't like that digital dash.

    I do like the Fit, however, so that shows that I'm not intrinsically anti-Honda. Too bad they're so rare on the lots.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think it gets down to wants and needs. When we bought the Subaru in '05, it wasn't the run away sales leader by any means, and no one bought the Legacy wagon, they all bought the Outback.
    Personally, something with big heavy squishy tires and a raised center of gravity, and "dual duty" suspension was totally unappealing to me, so we went with the regular Legacy wagon. As an added benefit, we can actually find our car in the parking lot.
    At this time we were also cross shopping the Accord, but no wagon version, no AWD and proud pricing kept us away.
    When I lived in CA, I had the only Contour SE for miles around, but when I moved to MI, it started getting lost in parking lots too.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    This doesn't apply to the present generation Civic which is a big change and (could be argued) quite daring. Guess I am getting old because I for one don't like that digital dash.

    Try it for a bit before deciding you don't like it. It is very well set up for older drivers. It is a form of horizon display...the numbers appear at optical infinity, or on the "horizon." This is great for older drivers (or anyone near-sighted that requires corrective lenses for distance) because it reduces/eliminates the time needed to go from looking at something far away to something close up and back again (its called accommodation). The Prius, the Inisght, and the Civic all have similar display technologies.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You know, I see very few NSXs or 300Zs or RX8s driving around, but I understand they are fine cars. Just because there are few cars of a certain model driving around, doesn't mean no one wants them. Could be that only so many were available for sale in a given year, rather than 400,000 a year.

    And, some people like the fact that they'll see a few dozen of the same kind of car they drive every time they go for a drive. That happened to me a lot when I owned a Grand Caravan--they're all over the place. To each his own.

    One of the reasons this discussion is not as fun as it could be is that it's nearly impossible to say something about why you like your car without having someone beat you over the head about it, and tell you how stupid you are for thinking that way. :sick:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, Subarus are pretty popular in Minnesnowta, and if I lived outside the inner city I would be tempted to get an AWD vehicle (but probably not the Legacy, due to reasons I've noted earlier). But snow removal is an art form in the Twin Cities, and there's been only one time in the past 20 years--the Halloween blizzard of 1991, 30" of snow, when I really could have used an AWD vehicle.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    So the fact that few people thought enough about your car, to buy it, is a positive thing?

    I don't think that's what people were expressing...I interpreted what they wrote as saying that there were several compelling reasons to buy car-x, and the fact that they were less common than camcords was a bonus. There were many reasons why I chose to buy a Mazda6 which among the bigger reasons were that the hatchback was more practical since it had a much bigger loading area than a trunk, great handling including its amazing brakes, had good reliability according to Consumer Reports and Jd Powers, and it was thousands less than what I could get an Accord for (another reason less popular can be a huge positive). But I did consider it a bonus that the Mazda6 was nowhere near as common. It's nice when I walk out of a store and see my car as an attractive standout in the sea of vanilla-ish camcords and bloated SUV's.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    It's nice when I walk out of a store and see my car as an attractive standout in the sea of vanilla-ish camcords and bloated SUV's.

    My sentiments exactly, Zzzoom6. The only difference is we have a 2007 SEL AWD Fusion.
  • slamtazslamtaz Member Posts: 55
    "Don't know about the Optima, but the Sonata, IMHO, is a good car, but not up there at the top. The steering, handling, suspension, engine, interior, and such are 85% to perhaps 90% there, but not quite the same as the top competitors."

    You're correct & I agree with you that the Sonata is not up there yet although steering, handling, suspension, engine & interior issues may just be a matter of perspective but don't forget that the 2007 SE Sonata is at least $5,000 cheaper than the $22k V6 Accord mentioned here.

    With that comparison, where the Sonata is about 85%-90% of the V6 Accord, I'd say paying for a Sonata, say the 2007 SE, at an objective price that's about 70% of the V6 Accord is a pretty good deal to me :shades: Of course, people with moolah will certainly don't mind to spend more for a car with a perceived higher quality.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    It's nice when I walk out of a store and see my car as an attractive standout in the sea of vanilla-ish camcords and bloated SUV's.

    It's also nice to walk up to my car in the parking lot knowing it's what I consider to be the best midsize sedan in this segment. I'm certainly not going to buy a car I like less, because there are fewer of them around. :confuse:
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    nobody said anything about buying a car they liked less, just that having something different than the masses can be a factor in a purchase. Not everybody is like you and doesn't automaticly go with the accord (not a critisizm, the accord is a fine choice). some people get torn between a couple different cars, and something like uniqueness can be a factor.

    a lot of people will rush out and get the new 08 accord for the same reason..........not many other on the road yet.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As was expressed well by someone else, the uniqueness factor really wasn't part of my buying decision. But it is something I like about my current car. If I bought a car based on how unique it is, I guess my top choice in this class would be the Galant or Verona. :P
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Test drove the Civic before my wife bought the Optima. More money for less car. Seemed noticeably smaller than my 01 Elantra.

    Wouldn't completely dis the digital speedometer because what does a ten minute drive really tell you about living with the car. We still would have carefully considered a Fit but they only had one on the lot and wouldn't let us drive it unless we looked very, very serious.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Fit but they only had one on the lot and wouldn't let us drive it unless we looked very, very serious.

    For some reason honda is limiting the production on the fit. I can't imagine why, It looks like a pretty good car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    My guess is, less profit margin than on Civics and Accords.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    True, but it also helps them meet cafe standard because they're allowed to average thier entire product line.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    With the Civic having a higher EPA average than the Fit, and the Accord I4s with good numbers, I really don't think they need the Fit's numbers.

    There could also simply be a plant capacity problem with the Fit, since it's sold around the world. The new U.S. plant will help there.

    But, back to mid-sized sedans... :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well it is higher quality. The Sonata is, like you say a cheaper car than is the Accord. No one is going to give away a car which identical to the top cars available at a fraction of the price. You know, the old if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And take a look at what Intellichoice has to say on the different cars. Pay a little more up front, have the top line stuff, then trade-in or sell the car for a higher price -- which one is the bargain at that point?
    L
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In this segment, cookie-cutter is the norm. Actually depending on where one lives car-x can be cookie cutter and be very high-end. in certain parts of the country Rolls-Royce are cookie-cutter cars, but I digress.

    I honestly don't care how many of the brand of car I drive are on the road. Bro-in-law who does much more extensive research than me when buying a car, just ended up with a basic Accord. The reasons? They are the same reasons I would buy one over the competition. Not to mention Honda is giving away the '07s.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Intellichoice is very flawed. They ignore rebates in calculating costs, this overstates the costs of any car which commonly has a rebate available. They also ignore the value of discounted or free financing, when that is available.

    For example the Mazda6 has been available with $1750-$2000 rebates since Nov 2006. Intellichoice ignores this and shows a phoney ~$2000 difference in depreciation between Accord and Mazda6.

    I also found some flaws in their maintenance costs. For example on my car, Mazda6, their detailed maintenance costs mistakenly indicate that it does not have extended life coolant and does not have extended life trans fluid. They also project tire replacement cost at about $80 more than an Accord, I am pretty sure I can get the same tire price whether they are being put on an Accord or a Mazda6.

    Their insurance costs also have nothing to do with my reality. My insurance costs vary little, whatever model I choose and are far lower (about 1/3) than what they list. At most my insurance cost, from one model to another, might vary by maybe $200 or so over 5 years.

    I am not as familiar with the Sonata, but I bet the intellichoice figures are just as full of errors for that car.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I guess none of these errors apply to the Accord, right? People choose to believe what they want to believe.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    it's not about belief...it's about noticing that intellichoice is flawed. you can assume that these flaws affect each car equally, but once the credibility of a method of calculating cost of ownership is shown to be incorrect for one car model on many different levels, the conclusions from this methodology are discredited. but if you want to believe in a descredited model, you can choose to do so... :confuse:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think Edmunds TMV is flawed as well. They show a TMV of $18690 for a Mazda6i VE auto that you can buy in Chicago area for between 16500-17000 any time. I actually see people that think they got a great deal if they buy for 500 less than Edmunds TMV. You'd think they would be closer than they are. All they have to do is read the their own forums to get closer than they are.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So all these people who shop by comparing TMV and "True cost to own" are just going on flawed numbers. :surprise: If the numbers are flawed for one car, they are likely to be flawed for the other too. Does anyone do all these calculations before buying a car? Even if some other midsize car would cost me $50/month less to own (very unlikely), I doubt it would change my mind about which car to buy. Since I keep my cars more than 10 years, my True cost to own will be less than most, whatever car I choose.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I agree to a point. After reading a lot of the forums it does seem that a lot of people do look at some these calculators etc. as gospel. They should just be made award that the numbers may really not fit their region/locale. I just gave a 1993 LeSabre to Kars for Kids and I plan on keeping the car I just bought for at least 7-10 years so depreciation doesn't matter so much to me either.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I guess none of these errors apply to the Accord, right? People choose to believe what they want to believe.

    No some of us choose to think for ourselves and do a little checking on numbers like those reported by (un)intellichoice.

    You tell me...when was the last time Accords were available with $2000 rebates, that were ignored by (un)intellichoice? Not to mention when was the last time you saw Accords advertised at $5000 below MSRP?

    The point is all the errors are in favor of Accord, at least when compared to the Mazda6. It is the Accord that is shown with lower maintenance costs, lower insurance costs, and lower depreciation all of which are questionable.

    If folks are going to throw this sort of garbage cost analysis on here, they should at least be willing to do a little work to defend the numbers, after the flaws have been pointed out again and again and again...that is assuming they actually believe the figures that intellichoice comes up with.

    Explain to me how I end up buying a Mazda6 at a few nundred above invoice, when there is a $1750 rebate?

    Explain to me how the 5 year maintenance cost of my Mazda6 is going to come to $1700, but the Accord is going to be around $1200? According to the maintenance schedule, all I will need to do is change oil, rotate tires, and do one replacement of an air filter and a cabin filter. Pretty sure that is going to come to maybe $600 total and then maybe another $600 if tires need replacing.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I plan on keeping the car I just bought for at least 7-10 years so depreciation doesn't matter so much to me either.

    Even if you do keep your car for 10 years depreciation does make a difference. I got $5000 for my 12 year old Accord (92 EX). I doubt I could have got that for another brand.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    You tell me...when was the last time Accords were available with $2000 rebates, that were ignored by (un)intellichoice? Not to mention when was the last time you saw Accords advertised at $5000 below MSRP?

    You can haggle plenty off the MSRP. There doesn't have to be a rebate.


    The point is all the errors are in favor of Accord,


    Sure they are. ;)
Sign In or Register to comment.