Midsize Sedans 2.0

backy

Your '92 Accord must have been in exceptional condition to get that much for it, correct? I'll bet you could get at least $2000 for another brand, e.g. Mazda 626. But what if the 626 cost, say, $5000 less than the Accord (that is about today's differential). Compounded over 12 years at 5% interest, that's nearly $9000. Not including any extra sales taxes, which in some states would add several hundred bucks onto the original cost. So you really didn't come out ahead financially with the Accord. But so what? If that were your goal, you probably wouldn't have chosen the Accord to begin with, right? You enjoyed the Accord for those 12 years, and that was worth something to you.

m1miata

Well in California there is a difference between a Mazda6 and Accord both new and used in trying to sell them. They have to deep discount to move the Mazda6 out. Used they sell for less. When buying, I took the "Price everyone is paying as per Intellichoice" to the Honda dealership and go that price on my SE V6 , plus they gave me what I wanted on the PT Crusier trade in. I can not recall the exact difference on the trade-in, but it was between the $1,200 to $1,500 range on trade-in price and discounts, as being higher to get the Aura XR which is an equal price wise to the SE V6 Accord. Saturn went lower on the car by, but had a low trade-in allowance. I did not price the Mazda6 to buy. Did see some on a lot for $5K off sticker which made them $22K. Overpriced, then discounted means nothing. They had too much dust on the hood. You can get the Accord back then for $22.5K and it has the good resale value. BTW, the New Miata is hot, if it was not for a too narrow seats in the car.

L

m6user

That had to be one exceptional shape '92. I like Hondas and their reputation. It's just that I liked the way the Mazda drove better and the features for price equation. Honestly, I realize I might have a couple more issues and maybe a few hundred dollars more in cost over the lifetime of the vehicle. But, I wanted a fairly inexpensive third vehicle and something fun to drive. I really like features I got with the Mazda for $16500 like all disc brakes, 17" alloys, 6 disc changer, both front windows that down/up auto(a feature that I didn't realize I would appreciate so much) and the overall looks of the car among other things. If it is worth $1000 10 years from I will be pleased as I will still be money ahead because of initial price and compounding the difference ala Backy's comments.

elroy5

I'll bet you could get at least $2000 for another brand, e.g. Mazda 626.

Considering Mazda's average reliability, I think I would have had more problems with the 626, and probably wouldn't have wanted to keep it for 12 years, Which would defeat the purpose of saving money up front. And I don't believe a Mazda 6 equipped like the EX-L V6 Accord would be $5000 less. You make it sound like you can get $5000 off MSRP on a 6, but nothing off on an Accord, which is just not true. I got $3000 off MSRP in 03, which was the first year of the redesign. I'm sure I could do better on an 07 Accord right now.

thegraduate

A very close friend of mine has a 1994 Accord EX (white, sedan, grey cloth interior). It has been wrecked a couple of times, has 199k miles on it. Has an Alpine CD player (stock everything else), runs like a top, and everything seems in decent condition except for the driver's window which is slow and squeals when rolling it up.

He parked it on a fairly busy road and put a for-sale sign in it Thursday, asking $4,000. He had five calls as of Sunday.

He's not intending to sell it just yet, but he does want a bigger car soon and was testing the waters as to what he could expect to get for it. He said after that many calls he thought he'd ask $4,500 for it when he does sell in a few months.

Not bad for a 13/14 year old car with 200k miles.

m1miata

Last Mazda6 cars I looked at cost more or the same as the Accord, since the initial price was so jacked up. Seems like a really good car in some ways, and one can say they have the top rated car for handling within its class with the Mazda6, so it certainly is not a bad choice in many ways. The $1,500 to $2,000 off sticker is easy to do on Honda close out Accords right now. Plenty of dealerships, if at first ya don't succeed. As for reliability, there is nothing certain in life. Lot's of owners do seem very happy with Mazda, including durability, so who knows. All the cars are getting better these days. On the Mazda site they list the cars damaged in the sea accident and are not suppose to be sold as new. Does this imply they can be sold as slightly sea washed used??? Best to check that used car id number.
L

thegraduate

The $1,500 to $2,000 off sticker is easy to do on Honda close out Accords right now. Plenty of dealerships, if at first ya don't succeed.

Seems like $1,000-$2,000 off of INVOICE is pretty common in Accords right now during closeout time.

m1miata

So, he offers to sell @ $4K then what? I hope he accepts the $4K offer at that point and tells the buyer about the accidents. No one really offered near or at the $4K mark, I take it? It is amazing the resale value on Honda/Toyotas. They are the best in resale.
L

m1miata

Let's not get carried away now.

thegraduate

No, he's not prepared to sell it right now. He needed to know how much he could afford to spend on another car, so he was seeing if he really could get $4k for it. There are some cars in the paper here that are asking similar prices.

I saw a 95 Accord LX, ~140k mi, asking $4,900 in The Birmingham News a few weeks ago.

Whether or not they get it, I dunno. I hope they do, since I've got a 1996 LX with 175k!

By the way, the accident will be pretty obvious on my friend's car, since the airbag repair job on the steering wheel isn't perfect looking.

elroy5

Not bad for a 13/14 year old car with 200k miles.

Exactly, saying depreciation doesn't mean anything after 10 years is false. Accords hold their value for a long time, if you keep them in good condition. If you wash your car every week, and keep maintenance records, buyers are impressed by this and are willing to pay more.

backy

Any car in good condition has value after 10+ years. The value is in line with the initial sales price--but it never goes to zero, for a car in good condition.

It is often said that you don't get something for nothing. So doesn't it seem odd that an Accord buyer should expect to get the benefits often associated with an Accord, e.g. superior reliability, resale value, and driving experience, at no extra cost? Of course there is a cost. But you have to weigh it against the benefits received.

jd10013

It must just be me, but I can't imagine parting with 4-5 grand for a car with 200k miles and 14yrs old. Bassed on KBB, it sounds about right, but I wouldn't pay that for any car that old and with that many miles.

elroy5

It must just be me, but I can't imagine parting with 4-5 grand for a car with 200k miles and 14yrs old.

If you had seen my 12 year old Accord, including under the hood, I think you would say it was worth $5000. You could have changed the oil, and only got a little dust on your hands, because there was no grease or oil anywhere on it. I once took the seat covers completely off, washed them thoroughly, and put them back on. It was an easy car to maintain, so I enjoyed keeping it up.

pinehurst2

It must just be me, but I can't imagine parting with 4-5 grand for a car with 200k miles and 14yrs old

It's not just you. No way would I buy a car with that many miles. And that price tag adds insult to injury. A ticking time bomb of automotive aggravation in my book.

Shoot for what.... $10,000? you can get an Accent with a great warranty and mega air bags.

Duh.

jd10013

I doubt it. 200k and 12 years is just to much for that kind of money. And for the sake of an agrument, I'm not disputing the value, just saying I wouldn't buy it. I must confess though, the way honda vehicles hold their value is amazing. according to KBB, my '02 civic that I paid 14900 for with 115k miles on it is still worth almost 10k. But I'll add, the big advantage people tend to forget about with resale value is insurance. I do get a degree of satisfaction knowing that if I wreck that high milage, aging civic, the insurance company will be writing a pretty good size chek. :surprise:

thegraduate

I have 175k miles on my 1996 Accord. Original transmission, alternator, even original brake shoes on the rears. This car has had oil changes every 3k miles, major maintenance done every 30k miles, and a timing belt at 88k miles (it'll need one at 178k).

I'd probably ask $4900 for it (just based on my friend getting calls for $4,000 on his 2 year older and 25k extra mileage car). I might get $4,000, maybe $4,500. Depends on the particular person seeing my ad.

Would I buy this car if I were you? Heck no. I wouldn't spend that kind of money when I didn't know the person who had driven it for THAT long. It could've been run for 15k miles between oil changes; nearly overheated a few times, and have a problem eating tires. It could also be in great running condition, with most of its life on the highway getting nearly 30 MPG. At this age though, the question mark would be too big to plop down $5k though, for me.

It does make me happy that there ARE people willing to buy these cars, though. I have one. I just wouldn't be the person buying from me. Does that make sense?

To be 12 years old this Nov. and have 175k miles, I think this car looks pretty dang good though (this is mine). That's my UAB parking pass glimmering above the rear-view mirror. I took this picture this evening, after washing it.

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

I put up a few pics on my carspace, from after getting hit/run off the road in June.

backy

I'd say KBB is VERY optimistic. Edmunds' TMV for a 2002 Civic EX 4-door (the most expensive Civic trim for 2002) with 115k miles in clean condition is only $7740. By that number, in about five years you've lost nearly 50% of the car's value compared to what you paid for it. Which is pretty good! In comparision, I had a similar experience with my '01 Elantra, which I sold last year after 5-1/2 years of ownership, for $5900--exactly 50% of its original purchase price. So you and I both lost about 50% of our original investment over about five years (assuming Edmunds' TMV figures are closer to the real world, which I have found over time they usually are--for example, their TMV for my Elantra at the time I sold it was $5950.). However, my loss was $5900, and yours (on paper) is over $7000. I point this out only as a caution, that resale value percentages don't tell the whole story.

An example closer to this discussion (although my Elantra was classed as a mid-sized car based on interior room): this goes back to the 12-year old Accord (a '92) that was sold for $5000. Here's a comparison of 12-year old mid-sized cars, a 1995 Accord EX-V6 and a Mazda 626 ES-V6, each with low miles (120,000) and in outstanding condition; for private party sale, according to Edmunds' TMVs:

Accord: $3783
626: $1675

Note that this is for a V6 Accord (not available in '92), and it's three years after the '92, so some price appreciation should have occured. If this is a representative average for sales prices (with some people doing better and some not as well), then the Mazda buyer would need to have paid at least $1200 less up front than the Accord buyer to come out ahead financially on the purchase in 12 years, assuming an interest rate of 5% compounded annually.

The purpose of this rather lengthy example is to demonstrate that it doesn't take a huge difference in price to make up the resale value between an Accord and other makes over a long period of time. And consider now that the price difference between an Accord, even the leftover 2007 models, is several thousand dollars compared to cars like the Fusion/Milan, Mazda6, Optima, and Sonata.

Thus, if you plan to own your mid-sized car for a long time and think you can save money in the long run due to a car's historically high resale value, it might be something to re-consider.

thegraduate

Will have standard ABS.

I'd say its about time!

elroy5

Sometimes KBB is not optimistic at all. My 92 EX Accord, sold 12 years later (137k miles), had a KBB value of $3,850. I guess the guy who bought it didn't look it up in KBB, because he had no problem giving me $5,000 for it.

csandste

Kelly is asking price, Edmunds (which is pretty close to NADA in my experience, though it's been several years) is selling price. The only thing I've ever used Kelly for was to make window stickers when selling a car.

That Honda looks in better shape, but the last old Japanese car I bought was a 90 Camry with about 140,000 on the clock in about 2000. Bought it for my daughter and it's still in family use, although I put way too much repair money in it between transferring it from one daughter to another. Anyway they've abused the hell out of it but it's still chugging away at 200,000 miles plus. If memory serves me right I paid slightly over a thousand for it from some guy who used to fix 'em up and sell them from his house (until the subdivision put an end to that scheme). Again, it was relatively clean but nothing like the Honda.

csandste

I did a quick Auto Trader check on '92 Accords. Range from $500-7695 with average price of $2974. Of course that includes all sorts of rip-off used car dealers.

barbarag999

I have a sensitive back. MY 97 camry is still a good seat. Car shopping and found the new camry and lexus ES is HORRIBLE for my back. I do have sensitive back and back problem that needs support.
Don't like the dashboard reflection on the acura.

Who makes a great seat like they use to in a sedan? HELP?

backy

Yes, I think you got very lucky in terms of who bought your Accord. That's why there's a thing called "average" sales prices.

backy

I've found VW's seats to be excellent for support, also those in the Accord are good. Volvos are also supposed to have good seats, although on the firm side--seems like you need a firm seat though.

One of the most comfortable driver's seats I've ever sat in is the one in the 2001-2006 Elantra. It is an 8-way adjustable (manual) seat, quite rare these days, especially on an inexpensive car. It includes a lumbar adjustment, and it's quite firm (especially on the GT, with leather). If you don't mind buying a used car, you might check it out.

bhmr59

Sounds to me like you found a real fish.

No matter how good that car is, major maintenance items are bound to pop up on this $5000 12 year old car.

dayokayode

Although I have been lurking in this forum for quite a while and frankly have read posts that have gotten me livid, I had to respond this time. It should be noted that information concerning Mazda's putative 'average' reliability, which unfortunately is bandied about here and elsewhere, is sheer conjecture at best or frequently garnered via debatable methodology.

For every 'survey' which claims that Honda and Toyota produce vehicles that are intrinsically more 'reliable', there are others that report diametrically-opposite findings. Despite the fact that I have seen (in action) an Accord with an utterly-flawed automatic transmission (and I know that this particular problem is pervasive but obviously not universal across the line) and read about Toyota's 'sludge' problem, among other issues, many still choose to reify the products of these two companies with scant problematization.

More troubling is the implicit assumption that if you do not purchase the Accord or Camry, and I am not accusing anyone here of this 'crime', you are bereft of common sense and intelligence, and somehow are 'stuck' with a car that is devoid of the exaggerated (in my humble opinion, at least) 'merits' of a Camry or an Accord.

Regarding the much-maligned 626, we have got one in my family that is 7+ years old and is still running beautifully, thank you very much. For the record, I really have got my own idiosyncratic qualms regarding the Accord and Camry. As such, I personally will NOT buy either one and this most certainly is my prerogative; people can choose to procure whatever they wish and do not require the validation of others.

bhmr59

Who are you trying to impress? Not even Bill Buckley writes like that. You certainly wouldn't/don't talk like that...be honest.

P.S. You should try using spell check.

dayokayode

The last time that I checked, writing AND speaking well are not something to be ashamed of, or are they?

Moreover, this is a forum regarding cars and not a 'free-for-all' critique of my writing style. You can skip my post the next time, ok?

THANKS!

elroy5

I respect your opinion. And yes, you certainly can buy any car you desire.

falmouth

Apparently you disdain "surveys". How about consumer reports ? Last I heard it was well respected when it came to cars. Why do Honda and Toyota do so well there ? Any brand of car can have problems and you here more abouth these than anything else. But when you sell more cars and you come out at the top this should mean something. I certainly understand not buying a car after you've had problems with the brand. In the same vein, yes Mazdas have less reliability than Hondas. See consumer reports. Their parts also usually cost more. How many Mazdas do you see in a dealer lot with 5 yr/150K on them ? I've been surprised to see some Hondas with same while looking recently.

jeffyscott

Seems like $1,000-$2,000 off of INVOICE is pretty common in Accords right now during closeout time.

Meanwhile $3000-4000 off invoice on the Mazda6 has been pretty common for many months. Despite this intellichoice shows both of them with target price of a few hundred above invoice. This equates to maybe a $1000 error for the Accord, but about a $3000 error for the Mazda6.

This would mean the depreciation cost difference between the Mazda6 and the Accord is overstated by about $2000.

jeffyscott

How many Mazdas do you see in a dealer lot with 5 yr/150K on them ? I've been surprised to see some Hondas with same while looking recently.

Well, since Honda sells many times the number of cars that Mazda does, of course you are going to see a greater number of them. I'm sure, if I looked, I'd see many more Hondas than Mazdas in the junkyard too.

lilengineerboy

How about consumer reports ? Last I heard it was well respected when it came to cars.

I fear that you may have mis-heard.

re: Mazda Their parts also usually cost more.

Actually given Ford's global platform structure, their parts are actually less expensive, especially with respect to Toyota.

falmouth

Well, have you seen any Mazda with 150K on any dealer lot. I doubt it.

falmouth

Ford's global platform structure may be irrelevant. I've had many independent service techs tell me Mazda parts are more expensive and harder to get.

benderofbows

All,

Concerning the "average" reliability of the Mazda 626...

I think these ratings for all cars should be broken down by engine/transmission options, as in most cases the really major problems are limited to just one of these.

Case in point: The different engine/transmission combinations available on 1998-2002 626's made some of these cars well below average and some well above average in terms of reliability; unfortunately, all that is ever reported is the overall "average" for all 626's.

The Mazda 2.0L I4 matched with the Ford-sourced automatic transmission was plagued with problems. The transmissions required frequent re-builds/replacement, as often as every 30k.

On the other hand, the Ford-sourced (Mazda re-worked) 2.5L V6 paired with the Mazda 5-speed manual was an exceptionally reliable (and entertaining) combination.

I know, I had one with over 100k. (Note: that V6 5-speed Mazda with 100k sold for over KBB)

benderofbows

On my 1998 Mazda 626, my mechanic pointed out to me that many of the electronic parts were interchangeable with Ford. This was evidenced by two distinctly different cable connection types present under the hood (one style for the Mazda parts and one style for the Ford parts).

Shoot, I even remember one part having the red three-point Mitsubishi logo...

goodegg

Why do folks here have to defend their Camcord purchases? Can't they just like them better than the others?

Not everybody calculates the minute financial ramifications involved with every purchase. Personally I don't care for half the vehicles in this comparo, so no matter what their attributes are that you would use to persuade me to buy one, I just wouldn't buy one. Period.

I spent the day in an indoor Ford dealership yesterday, hanging with a friend buying an F150, and I wouldn't have given you half of what the stickers on those vehicles asked. Ford plasticland.

I'll stick with Hondas.

zzzoom6

The idea that because a car is discounted when it's new would make a used, high mileage car hard to sell isn't necessarily true. My old subaru I sold last year after buying the Mazda6 was a 94 legacy gt with 150k miles on it. There were a few dings on the outside, and a couple probs with the cloth in the interior. After buying the 6, I put an ad in Craigslist for $5k (a little less than KBB's private party value) and sold it that day for cash! I think I got a bit lucky at how quickly it sold, but the point is that there are other cars that hold their value and sell well besides just accords. And at the time I sold my Legacy, those were going for 5K off of MSRP for new ones (at least the ones that were left - I bought mine in late november when the next year's models were on the lot). Anyways, sometimes when cars less commonly sold that have pretty steep discounts can hold their value suprisingly well.

zzzoom6

Ford's global platform structure may be irrelevant. I've had many independent service techs tell me Mazda parts are more expensive and harder to get.

It would seem that mazda's parts do cost less. In the last IIHS fender bender test, the mazda was one of the least expensive to repair.

thegraduate

but the point is that there are other cars that hold their value and sell well besides just accords.

My point wasn't to say that it was just Accords. It just happened to be that my friend has an Accord to sell, and i have two of them. I don't have experience with selling back another brand of vehicle, so I wouldn't dare say otherwise. All I am doing is speaking about what i know, and that is the good resale of Accords; not poor resale of others. I can't make a solid statement about something I've never experienced firsthand, now can I?

My original post about my friend's Accord got a lot of heat. I wasn't trying to impart one car's superiority; just that the Accord does have good resale. It wasn't a comparison, a put-down to others.

Folks, we shouldn't have to be so dang defensive around here. Not with me, anyways. (this isn't directed at you specifically zzzoom6).

Some long-time posters I sort-of "converse" with (elroy5, tallman, backy, among countless others) will tell you I'm typically pretty straightforward when I bring information to the table. It's not an attack. If I bring an opinion other than my own, I do my best to cite my info. Not a bad idea for others to try, true?

Anyway, I'm off my little soapbox for the morning. I'll check in later!

Best,
Thegrad

falmouth

If you're talking about the bumper test. Kudos to the Mazda 6 for less damage. But nowhere can I find where it says that Mazda parts cost less. Just that there was less damage.

m1miata

It is also possible, but not probable that you may be struck by lightening. One must first look to the probable scenario.
L

zzzoom6

sorry grad, my comment wasn't suggesting that you said that other cars couldn't have good resale value.... others kind of implied this (saying that the used accord would sell for 5k, but brand 'x' would sell for 3k...), but your comment was the one I clicked "respond" to.

zzzoom6

????

thegraduate

It's not a problem - I was directng my frustration at you, either.

Yours was just the last post on the topic I wanted to speak on.

thegraduate

I think he means that he think you got lucky with the Legacy; thats how I took it anyway.

jeffyscott

Well, have you seen any Mazda with 150K on any dealer lot. I doubt it.

This sort of comment is just silly.

I've never really been interested in 150K mi + cars. But a quick 50 mile search on cars.com turned up 2 mazdas for sale at new car dealers that meet your 150K mi criterion...both over 200,000 miles, actually.

For Honda, the same search turned up 2 at new car dealers with over 200K and 8 between 150 and 200K. I'll make a wild guess that Honda probably outsells Mazda by about this same 5:1 ratio???

zzzoom6

or is he saying that selling a legacy for as much as an accord is as likely as getting struck by lightning? Or maybe he's saying that selling my car quickly was improbable. or maybe he was saying that my mazda6 will not sell for as much as an accord in 10 years... only he knows what his cryptic (and supposedly sly) comment means exactly.

Actually, in our neck of the woods, subaru sells quite well and has a good reputation. In fact after doing more research after selling it (I know, doesn't make a lot of sense to research after I sold it but just wanted to know if I did ok or not), asking price at stealerships was higher for models w/ a smaller engine than what I sold. And the people who bought mine said that mine was in much better condition than what they found elsewhere. Retail price on KBB was around 6k while private party was about 5.4k. I think trade in value was in the high 4k range. So all in all, I probably could have gotten more, but it was nice to be able to sell it so quickly and not have an extra car clogging up the garage.

Funny thing was, when I got my Mazda6, I wanted to trade in my Subie and was willing to take anything more than 4k, but they wanted nothing to do with it. Just as well, as it turned out.