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There are some rather “interesting” opinions on oils / lubrication / testing / extended drains...Cars can be a passion for enthusiasts.
Waaay too many posters in these technical forums sound too "authoritative" in their tone. Most are probably well-meaning I know. Claiming a solid "I know" cause/effect relationship (or implying it) without data is kinda silly. Like race car Drivers??? endorsing "miracle" aftermarket oil additives...come on, that is "testimonial" not proof/solid evidence. Netizens beware...
FWIW, I am a Chemical Engineer, and STLE (Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers) CLS(tm)(Certified Lubrication Specialist).
The color of the oil is not really relevant as to its condition in most cases (big exception might be busted coolant gaskets in the block---you CAN see that kind of contamination). There are so many chemicals in modern spec. oils to keep it “healthy” during use, that used oil testing is only way to go for definitive answers. If you change it when it first becomes dark, that is only good for oil suppliers, your engine will not benefit.
I NEVER recommend *consumers* vary from OEM (original equipment manufacturer --- i.e. carmakers in this case) oil drain and viscosity recommendations no matter what testing processes they do...risk/reward is just too small IMHO. It is technically fine (if perhaps economically imprudent) to be more conservative and/or test used oil, but set your maximum service intervals at OEM time/mileage for your service conditions.
“Severe service” is not quite as common, in my opinion, as some Quicklubes would have you believe because *occasional* severe conditions (e.g. desert type heat & dust / stop & go) are not the same as “truly severe service” like, say for example, daily long idling police cars & frequent trailer towing.
BTW, it is very surprising the amount of 10W40 & 20W50 PCMO we sell...***BUT no OEM recommends those grades any longer*** (and has not for a while). Old habits/beliefs die-hard. Within proper ranges (OEM spec) higher viscosities are not “better” or more protective.
For the record, I personally use syn & premium (or OEM) filter in my personal cars, and change at about 5K miles...this is really overkill (vs. 7500 miles) I cannot intellectually justify, but heck oil is cheap and engines are not. The syn does not really lube "better", but does provide some additional safety margins in some areas (temperature extremes, and a slightly over-spec. formulation maybe close to GF-3/SL “next generation oils”). Syn might have less “flowing friction”(my words) for better mileage/HP, but this is probably way too small to observe/measure, and is technically controversial.
I have used oil analysis from time to time on my older car to check conditions. Titan Labs (sold at K-mart) has a consumer-friendly report. Most folks should avoid purely numeric reports like fleets use.
At work, we use Cleveland Tech (CTC) for used oil analysis, they may do some other “OEM-branded” tests too, I do not know. But our work is for fleets, and mostly HDMO (i.e. Heavy-Duty Motor Oil for sooty diesel engines, not PCMO --Passenger Car Motor Oil).
Note that visual oil filter inspection in sometimes helpful, but not conclusive. Filters can pull out to 10-25 microns; only people with good vision can see (in ideal conditions) down to maybe 20 microns. Also particles are buried in the media. Memory says particles in typical engines need to be over about 40 microns to possibly damage anything in the tightest bearing clearances in most engines. Most importantly most filters are not designed for “long life” service.
My PCMO oil advice to consumers is mostly like "Click & Clack"(NPR car show) give:
(1) GF2/API SJ oils are very good even at base spec. blend
(2) buy a major brand (big oil co or retail brand --- the issue is day to day quality control, NOT who is "best" oil. Around 5%, if I remember correctly, per API tests and State of NC tests (only state that checks) of “off-the-shelf” oil are misblended/off-spec. I think big suppliers do better QC.
(3) change oil and use a good filter (OEM, Purolator, Wix, are my favorites, others may be OK) each time and do it at *5000 miles* not 3000 oil change places say...when the color get darker the oil is still fine for service. If you are TRULY severe service (per OEM), then do that recommendation for miles
(4) Add **nothing** to the oil. PCMO is a VERY competitive market---if there was a “miracle” additive in would be in oil in the first place...major Oil/Chemical company developers/chemical suppliers are doggone pretty smart formulators.
Smaller specialty oil supplers can vary on oil change intervals and testing advice, and often push extended drains & expensive oil. They need a way to merchandise oils, and it is quite true that ***done right*** extended drains are possible in most cases; just kinda silly and risky for most consumers in terms of risk/hassle & reward. The risk/reward ratio looks much better for extended drain if you run a fleet and have economic impact when vehicles are serviced. Furthermore, current major-branded oils will give you plenty of miles without oil-related issues/failure. Just sold a 150K mi. 88 Accord run on regular oil, with plenty of engine life left, even if the rest of the car showed a bit more wear!
I can guarantee that they will pay on a claim, never.
True that very dark oil may be OK. Sorry to imply that color alone would reveal when to change, altho it helps.
Not true that very frequent changes only represent extra money. The drain plug threads may get stripped. The copper gasket (as in a SAAB 9000 or 900) may not get replaced and leak. The oil filter gasket may leak.
Not true that changing oil without changing the filter, when 20% of the oil that is in the filter contaminates the new oil, is really a problem. The 80% of new oil will give the mixture pretty reasonable properties.
The difference in viscosities is so great that you can tell just by shaking the oil bottle. Valvoline fully synthetic is much less viscous than petroleum oil, and gives you 10° F more on the low end of easy starting. Castrol fully synthetic was so much more viscous that, when I noticed it, I decided not to use it, and gave it to a car owner who is based in the CA desert.
Not true that no mfgrs. recommend oil more viscous than 10W-30. My Subaru SVX manual recommends 30, 40, 10W-50, 20W-40 and 20W-50 for desert or towing in hot areas. (Also 7,500 mile oil changes for normal service.) My SAAB 9000 Turbo manual recommends 10W-40 or 15W-40 for severe conditions. (Also 10,000 mile oil canges for normal service.)
The dealer is telling me that every 5000 miles it
requires maintenance including oil change, tire
rotation, valve adjustments and driveline bolt
torquing. The charge for this service is $105.00
every 5,000 mi. Is all this really necessary or
will Oil/Filter change suffice each 5,000 miles?
Valve adjustments in most engines today are not required. Plus, the last engine to need 5000 mile valve adjustments was the ole VW Beetle
Thanks!
Paul
You got one response in the new topic you created. Since this is the best place to discuss your question, I'm going to paste that response here:
#1 of 1: any stop n go is...(amora) Thu 23 Nov '00 (07:31 AM)
Good luck.Use the severe maintenance schedule. I drive
78 miles one way at 65-75 and on return
somestimes get stuck in bumper to bumper
traffic here in Los Angeles. THIS IS ULTRA
SEVERE DRIVING...
Regards
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
What's the story on fuel filter replacement.. mainly, how often? The owners manual doesn't mention it as maintenance item.
I was going to do it myself (@30K miles), but discovered replacement is not like with my '93 Voyager. The filter is a $27 plastic part with 3 hoses, and you gotta get above the gas tank! Has anyone done this... is it best left to a "pro"?
Thanks.
consider yourself lucky. in my f-150, you need a special tool to do the job. why fuel filters moved from a nice convenient place in the engine compartment to stuffed in the middle of the fuel line underneath the car is beyond me.
-Chris
It helps me keep my cars running and looking like new for at least 10 years and 200,000 miles.
Part of the core of PM is to follow the OEM "severe" schedule, regardless of the type of driving you do. The OEM is motivated to keep your vehicle together long enough to avoid paying warranty claims and still keep a steady supply of repeat customers. Go for the PM schedule the OEM thinks is really needed: "severe"
You can download my FREE PM checklists and see picture of my 12 year old Ford Taurus with 198,000+ miles maintained with PM at my site.
As for the fuel filter on the Caravan, it is INSIDE the fuel tank and is not a job for the shadetree mechanic.
best of luck
sony laptop and have the maintenance manuals.
However if someone is totally mechanically inclined, the repair manuals listed on back of most new vehicles owner's manual has an order form for the OEM manuals, they are quite expensive but will show you how to replace almost 100% of all
vehicle components.
regards,
Andy
Brake fluid replacement - every 2 years? I recalled that water typically collect in the brake fluid, so it should be flushed every 2 years.
Power Steering fluid replacement - every 2 years? Any reason why this should or should not be flushed? Does water collect in the system.
Engine Coolant - In the old days, it was recommended that the coolant be change every year, two if you add rust inhibitors. Has coolant improve over the years so that this is unnecessary. Is rust inhibitors really necessary? Should coolant system be flush?
Spark plug wire - I figure a change every 5 years would do the trick. Earlier if they look damaged.
Coolant hose and clamps - replace every 4 years for safety sake?
Battery - ???
Gas cap and coolant cap - I figure changing the coolant cap every 4 years would be sufficient. The emission inspection usually checks for a bad gas cap, so I'll wait until the mechanic complains.
Alignment - wait until there is a noticable problem either in the tire or the steering?
Waterpump - most people recommend replacing it with the timing belt, but most cars need timing belt changed at 60,000 miles. 60,000 seemed too low. Could it be done at every other timing belt change or 120,000 miles or will the pump give out before that?
As a car age, stuff will start breaking down. Rather than waiting until the car dies and leaves you in a bad neighborhood, can the item be replaced before they fail. For example, how long does the alternator last? What about starter motor, and distributor?
Thanks.
Paul
Owner's manual recommends (Besides oil change) only air filter and AC filter replacement.
When I called Honda dealer, they recommended transmission service, coolant flush, brake fluid flush, distributor cap replacement, and spark plug replacement.
Whom should I trust: owner's manual or Honda Dealer?
sermolin
Regards,
"Severe" driving condition is sometimes defined as either repeated trips under 5 miles; repeated trips under 10 miles when outside temperature is below freezing; driving in stop-and-go traffic in hot weather; extensive idling or low-speed driving for long distances (police cars, taxis); driving in dusty conditions; driving on rough, muddy or salted roads, or towing a trailer.
What's the recommendation in your part of the world?
Steve_
Host
Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
All of these vehicles are considered "extreme" duty and those are the intervals that Valvoline, Fleetguard and Cummins have come up with for us.
Ryan
I love GM cars' location of the fuel filter. they are right by the gas tank, easy to get to. I don't know why Toyota?Mazda put the filter inside the engine area, it is a #$%@ to get to the bottom part of the filter, anf if you have leak there, you set the engine on fire!
On Chrysler vans 96-01, the fuel filter also has three nylon hoses pressed onto the filter. There is no doubt that the reason is to make the filters cheaper when Chrysler buys them( eliminating three quick connects), but more expensive when we buy it (Have to buy all those press fitted formed nylons). The filter change however is easy. On Dodge ram and Dakota trucks, the filter (really a screen mesh) is inside the gas tank, and is not serviceable. I think 98-01 Honda Accords also have no fuel filters, and are using a tiny screen inside the tank.
I don't know all that much about car maintence since this is the first car I had to maintain. Any help would be appreciated :-)
Fuel filter is anywhere from 30k-90k, again look in owners manual.
that item, btw, that you leave out in the rain, drive in horrible conditions, survives our wonderful american roads, and you count on to start and run without a burp every time you get in it.
somehow, i'm missing something here. do you buy a house and never maintain it?
as far as people doing their own visual inspections, how many of you out there think you can tell me whether your brake lines are bad, or would even know where to look, for that matter. amoungst many other things.
-Chris
Also seems to me you could ask for a pencil-checked list of what was done to your car while you wait, and also ask for percentages of wear on brake pads.
last of all, if these items are checked off (or even listed on the repair order), you've got evidence.
Of course, if you distrust your dealer that much, you could have the same work done at your private garage. The idea is to get the work done and to do all of it!
i'm not even worried about "warrantee issues". i'm worried about "safety issues". yea, maybe brake line failure is a 1 in 10,000 issue in the first 30K. i don't want to be the 1 when i have to hammer on my brakes when some nimrod cuts me off on the turnpike. and so on.
to each his own. pm is a small price to pay, imo.
-Chris
yes, *some of us* can do these inspections by ourselves, no doubt... but 95% of the population (and i'm being generous, probably more) can't even be bothered to check the air pressure in their tires, let alone properly inspect a vehicle...
maybe i'm a fool (you know what they say about money soon parted), but it gives me a sense of well being when a competent bmw tech looks over my car every now and then... for me, it's money well spent...
-Chris
There must be easier and safer ways to save money.
however, you'll find it much easier to go through life if you aren't so paranoid that people are gonna screw you.
-Chris
Where do you live that you mistrust everyone so much? Are your dealerships controlled by the Russian mafia or something?
Also, most owners are not competent enough to service a modern car....oh, sure, they can do the oil and filters, but most don't know a warped brake rotor or bad suspension bushing from a doughnut. Not because they are unintelligent, by no means, but because they aren't trained to know what to look for.
They take too many shortcuts due to time/money issues. They cannot afford the time to drive it 10 miles to properly warm up the fluid. Of course, they could have measured how much was drained out as I would do!
Recently asked the Isuzu dealer how to change tanny fluid on a 97 Rodeo (no dipstick) . He kept showing me a picture from the service manual. I kept telling him that what is under this SUV is not what is in his book. He said I was crazy. Finally asked a mechanic who agreed with me. Haynes manual actually correct in this instance.
The list goes on. Mechanics and service reps not necessarily incompetent but they service too many years, makes and models of cars to know what each issue is whereas I know my cars better then they do!
Would somebody, please, tell Me if that is alright to drive with power-steering reservoir filled (for whatever reason, I do not know) with transmission(?) fluid (it is having red color) instead of pwr-steering fluid. Should I drain it away and fill up with a standard PS fluid, or there is no harm in using and mixing this two types of fluids?
the oil filter from the car. I was able to un-screw it ok but the problem was getting the filter
out of the car. Do i take it out through the top or the bottom of the car.
thanks for any help on this matter
Steve