UAW workers are lazy, dumb, evil doers that have a entitlement attitude
I said they are sheep that believed the lies the leadership fed them. They believed that someone with no education doing menial work should make more than folks doing the same job for half the wages. Just because they beat an ignorant management team down with strikes and work stoppages, does not change reality. There are limits to what a worker is worth. It has to do with profitability of the product they produce. When the company started bleeding red ink, Gettlefinger or who ever was President of the UAW, should have told the troops. We got cut back wages and benefits to make GM profitable. Instead they go on strike. That is my basis for giving the UAW a black eye, by giving Unions that show some restraint a bad name. I don't expect you to understand. You have been brainwashed since you were a baby.
PS I meant what I said about Wagoner, Reuther, Hoffa etc. Most Alaska Teamsters are ashamed that Jimmy Hoffa was ever involved with our Union. He was a no good murdering cheat and should rot in hell.
my granddad was a teamster and drove a truck for 25 years till his death in 1962...my dad told me he liked hoffa, not that jimmy was a saint...he did improve things for truckers...talk about the uaw all you want, the teamsters didnt take crap from anybody and were probably more than a little crooked...you dont get what you want in this world by being nice, just ask the crooks at goldman sachs and federal reserve
tock. marsha and gagrice-you don't really believe that rocky "gets" it now, do you? Most of us regulars on here have understood the viability of the UAW "business" plan for months and months and months, but, like you say, rockford fosgate has been spoonfed Granny Clampett stories since he was a little kid, that Daddy and Momma are off to work to earn what's theirs, that they are great, walk on water, make the "best" rigs on the planet, etc.
I gotta tell ya, when Mitsubishi came out with this new world order Lancer bodystyle, I was drug towards Mitsubishi like Gary Payton was glued to Michael Jordan during an NBA playoff game. Payton and Kemp and George Karl, now, gagrice, it's athletes like this that make what they do...because they are stars, they draw people to watch them purely for great entertainment value, they make what they do because they generate income for employers like ESPN, the NBA, the NBA franchises, etc. And CEO's, I know people don't wanna hear it, fall in to this category.
CEO's of Ford, Chrysler(I know, they're not a very good example), GM...their CEO's have a heavy responsibility to turn a profit for their stockholders, if they're a publicly owned and stock-traded entity. Wagoner was a buffoon, rock, when I even heard him speak I thought it was Lurch's brother. No kidding.
But gagrice puts it very clear, he has spelled it out for so long on here that you'd have to be a complete Neanderthal to not understand it. The UAW has sucked off the teat of GM and sucked then completely dry. Nothing left. Bankruptcy.
And rock, foreign cars rock. My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS not only looks like a million bucks, when I sit idling it's engine, it is so quiet and delightfully completely heartening to hear, that I just giggle and chuckle to myself in delight.
This is what it's all about. With the internet, I knew about the new world order Lancer's from Mitsu so early, I could uncover even the darkest little secrets about the car and totally satisfy myself with knowledge that I never could've known about shopping for a rig without the interweb. Truth be that.
Oh, a dental update. Remember when I told you guys I was heading down to Mexico for dental tx? Well, I went down there and, as it turns out, I picked a Mexican dentist that charges what the Big Boy American dentist's charge!
I ended up just heading to a Tucson dentist. I go later today to let him look at my bridge he is in the process of building in the lower left region of my mouth. I already have new crowns in the upper region. These babies look great but cost a fortune. I needed an extraction for the bridge and I've been popping 800mg Ibuprofen all week to cope with the pain. Hopefully he'll tweak something today in the bridge project to alleviate some pain. The extraction tooth wouldn't give up the goods so he had to really bust and split down there....ouch! :sick:
Anyhooo....rock, when I have written these long posts in the past that detail the path I took from the Aerospace industry in to going to college, getting a Respiratory Therapy degree and getting back in to the workforce, I have not been sharing this information for nothing. I have been there, I know about losing a good-paying job, of having an employer who would just as soon squish you like an ant than treat you right. Boeing does as they want, too many Big Boy Starbuck's Swillers and gloppy raspberry jelly donut eaters working there. They spend their time engrossed with their heads up other VIP's hindquarters in order to keep their jobs. I chose to bust my tail working for Boeing. They're too stupid and selfish to notice people's hard work.
I'm the guy who has a Mom living about 3/4 mile from the Everett Boeing plant. And the one who claims he wouldn't bat an eyelash of dispair if the whole plant slid off the banks in Mukilteo and in to the Puget Sound during one of the NW's horrible rain and mud storms. I wouldn't want Mom's house touched by the torment, but rocky, I remember advising you once to apply at Boeing.
Don't. You don't need their brand of employment. They lay people off with the flick of a bean-counters pen, and SPEEA and/or the International Aerospace Worker's Union's can't do squat to save you. They are the classic example of a Company too big for their own britches. One arm has no idea what the other arm is doing, and if someone smart tries to bust their tail and help them they show their gratitude by laying your butt off. To hell with them. Because that is just where the multitudes that rule there are going. As the Bible says, "they have full bellies and are having their reward in full," in this present system of things. Eat up, dorks, fatten your bellies, laugh and joke, shun God, and that will be it for you. Only a fool declares that there is no God, and that serving God is a shunnable idea. Truth that be, car-freaks.
I can only imagine GM being a similar type of place to work. I try to really work when I work, to make a difference in someone's life, therefore, healthcare fits me a lot better than manufacturing. But I have detailed out the path I took after Boeing, to benefit those in automobile manufacturing. I hope someone out there listens and retrains.
There is life after a good manufacturing job, and healthcare just continues to grow as boomers age, and unfortunately, need doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists to care for them.
While I agree the Teamsters, just like the UAW made life better for the working man. Our secretary treasurer of the Alaska Teamsters, Jesse Carr, was certainly not a saint. He did not get aligned with the mob and push contracts in their direction. He was as tough a negotiator as you would ever run into. He had far more power in Alaska during his reign, than the governor's that he helped elect. The point is he believed in capitalism not socialism as pushed by Reuther and subsequent leaders of the UAW. You cannot push corporations into bankruptcy and keep jobs for your workers. I am sure that is why the UAW has had a hard time getting new bargaining units. The Teamsters know how far to push a company. The UAW has been clueless in that regard and keep pushing jobs out of the Midwest and out of the country. The Teamsters gained 80,000 new members last year. How many 1000s of jobs did the UAW lose.
PS Hoffa was more than likely killed by the mob he associated with. We will never know how much pension money was given to and lost in his dealings with organized crime. I would say Hoffa was more of a black mark in the history of the Teamsters. I hope his son is more above board. We had little to do with the International Teamsters. We were separated at birth because of the Hoffa's unholy alliance with the mob. Most likely Hoffa was killed in Michigan by the mob operating in that state. Reuther unlike Hoffa tied his allegiance to the USSR. He could have been killed because of his of cold war politics. We may never know as politics in the 60s and 70s were much more secretive than since.
When a company isn't profitable because it's having a hard time selling its products, the only people who should be blamed for this are the company's managers & employees. Either the company is building unsatisfactory products or the products are good but the company is doing a lousy job of advertising & marketing them. In either case, the company's problems are caused by its own bad business practices, & it's the company's responsibility to change the way that it does business.
As you might have guessed, I'm a hard-core free market capitalist, & blaming 3rd parties for a company's problems strikes me as part of a larger left-wing trend toward avoiding personal responsibility for failure. Sorry, but I'm not buying into this socialist fluff. If GM is going down the tubes, that's not my fault & it's not the fault of whatever magazines I read. It's GM's fault, pure & simple.
CR recently had to explain that there's little if any difference between their good and bad circles. In the past there had been a meaningful amount of difference in the circle ratings from their unscientific surveys supplemented with their own opinions. But in past years the quality differences had dropped so that there was little difference but they haven't changed their interpretation guidance so people could understand that a half circle might be trivial in difference from an open circle, etc
CR has explained this quite a few times over the past 10 years. (I'm a longtime subscriber.)
"marsha and gagrice-you don't really believe that rocky "gets" it now, do you?"...if EVER I was being sarcastic, that was the time...he cannot get it because he cannot open his eyes to the obvious...he just thinks that the 2010 Buick LaCrosse will bring GM to profitability and that the UAw will add 500,000 members just to the Buick line...
"But gagrice puts it very clear, he has spelled it out for so long on here that you'd have to be a complete Neanderthal to not understand it. The UAW has sucked off the teat of GM and sucked then completely dry. Nothing left. Bankruptcy."...that is the simple truth that will be forced down his and every other UAW throat...but until they open their eyes, and have SOME comprehension about business and profitability, they will NEVER, I repeat, never understand why they are disappearing from the planet...they were NEVER worth what they were paid, but they beat the odds for many years...now there is no more as they have sucked the source dry, and not one of them can see it clearly, if at all...
Sorry to tell you Gagrice, but you are wrong. If a treatment is not available in Canada and the system sends "grand ma" to the U.S. for treatment, it is COVERED! A patient may not instigate the treatment in another country if it has not been approved beforehand, but in the case of urgent care or specialized treatment, if it is simply not available here, the health care plan pays. We send patients to the U.S. every day and it costs that patient nothing. If you need urgent treatment in Canada, it is available at NO COST. The problem is, just like the true nature of this forum, is that everyone thinks that they are entitled to treatment yesterday. Not all cases are urgent, despite the patient feeling it is. The system up here works very well and does not cost us a penny out of pocket.
As for making the U.S. a trade free zone, we in Canada would love it. Don't forget that the U.S gets the largest share of your daily consumption of oil and gas from CANADA. If we didn't have to send so much to you, we would be able to be like some of the South American countries, where fuel is pennies per gallon. Go ahead, close the border, but don't look to us to help you with your energy demands.
The CAW will drive Chrysler into bankruptcy and our government has stated that they will NOT back the pension plans of either GM or Chrysler. The CAW is 'up in arms', but this again is just another "sense of entitlement". If the union leadership was 1/2 as smart as they thought, then they would have seen the stupidity of leaving the companies to manage the pension money. Now there is nothing left and they want the taxpayer to bail them out.
."...rocky, you have criticized the "sheeple" for more posts than I can count...the actual, ignorant "sheeple" are your union people following the instructions of the idiots who led them, literally led them, down the path of sheer foolishness...they had a well-paid gravy train, paying them far in excess of the intrinsic value of the unskilled work they performed, yet they thought they could push for even more, as though there was no breaking point...
Actually the "sheeple" are the ignorant hicks that think they have the world by the [non-permissible content removed] that work for Hyundai for $14 bucks an hour.
The rubber band has finally broken and there is no more "flexibility"...rather than be satisfied as the highest paid but lowest skilled workers out there, like a drug addict, they simply could not stop, and they went for more...like the previous poster said, now the CUSTOMERS are on strike, and now their precious little UAW jobs are about to disappear and they are about to find out what their "skills" are REALLY worth, and it will not be pretty...
So will everyones standard of living. You and many others are to blind to see that though. :confuse:
Sadly, they will come home each night from job interviews, and they will lament that no one offers them more than $10-12/hour, and wonder where all the "good jobs" went...they killed the goose that laid the golden eggs and, 10 years from now, them and their kids will STILL be too self-centered to see it...they will go to their graves wondering why floorsweepers in Home Depot or WalMart don't make $60K per year with benefits...when compared with their skill level, they were probably the highest paid people in the USA, and they thinkl they are still worth twice as much...they aren't, they weren't, and they won't be...
Sadly millions of others will come home each night and realize it will be a race to the bottom. The american dream is dead and your serf n' elite eutopia is reality. We will turn into Mexico and then China. We will be the ones eating snakes and living in grass huts. :sick:
Nobody, esp the UAW leaders, ever told the "mindless sheeple" that their pay level was so far above their actual worth and that maybe, just maybe, they ought to just enjoy what they have...the "sheeple" are your people, mindless UAW people who believed the lies they were told (of course installing doors is worth $100K a year with overtime) and are ACTUALLY surprised that they are not...somebody needs to tell them that Alice is Wonderland was a fairy tale and so were their payscales...welcome to Reality...they are about to learn what unskilled labor is REALLY worth, and it won't be pretty...
Well I hope you are right because then all these "mindless" sheep will vote for a 3rd or 4th party into office. That is one way to put socialist into office.
Checked out that page, BTW...if that was the photo we were waiting for, maybe next time could do better...I was expecting to truly understand why she sold so many cars, and I found nothing to help me in that goal...I have enough trouble keeping up and posting with these topics...adding this "carspace" thing would drive me nuts, but thanks for offering...how do you people do it???...BTW, I have the same question for people with MySpace and Facebook and Twitter...who has the time to post to all these things and still live their lives???...which probably means that I am just a grumpy old man who does not see the value in posting one line twitters about my day...I tell Marsha (the real one) about my day, I cannot believe that anyone else would care, especially a 30 minute breakdown of my day...who can post that much, and whose life is that empty to want to do so???
Thank you for the report from Canada. I agree on all but one point.
The system up here works very well and does not cost us a penny out of pocket.
I think you will admit your taxes are pretty high in most provinces. Hopefully your health care covers you adequately. I don't trust our government to administer Health care very well. They leave too much room for fraud in the health care services they now provide.
We are 100% on the same page with the stupidity of the UAW/CAW leadership.
all this over cars. unbelievable. Ong can't stomach someone doing well with a GM vehicle. Autonation's CEO is totally upset about how he can't sell econoboxes that he has paid dearly to load his used car lots up with. He wants gas to cost $4 so his business plan can come back in style.
It is a big effort to go retrain yourself. I spent over 6 years doing it. You can't expect a person with 27 years in at GM assembly plant to go through that. 3 years away from a pension and 4 years away from GM BK, what would you do? 99% of all people would not be taking night school classes.
These 9 week shutdowns starting in June will be probably be 6 weeks of unemployment and using up 2 weeks vac pay for most. Will the union chip in anything? Will the resorts in N. Michigan be crowded?
Autonation's CEO is totally upset about how he can't sell econoboxes that he has paid dearly to load his used car lots up with. He wants gas to cost $4 so his business plan can come back in style.
The guy is an incompetent. Now, I will never buy from his company forever just for the idiot remark. He has no clue how to make America's Car industry #1 again...just GREED and interest in getting his sales back. Obviously, he does not understand the market. Nothing is selling, Mr. Jackson, particularly NOT the gas guzzlers.
Guess what? The old business model that produced the gas guzzling trucks is gone forever. You don't need to raise taxes you need to mandate efficient vehicles, period!
Not surprisingly, the longest shutdowns are at GM plants that make trucks and big SUVs. Truck sales have been particularly low despite the richest incentives the industry has ever offered on them.
The Flint, Mich., assembly plant that produces versions of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra, will be closed for nine weeks. The Fort Wayne, Ind., plant that makes other versions of the Silverado and Sierra, will close for 11 weeks.The Pontiac, Mich., assembly plant that makes still-other iterations of the trucks, closes for seven weeks.
The full-size SUV plant in Arlington, Texas, will be down for eight weeks beginning the week of May 11 through the end of the week of July 6.
The Shreveport, La., plant that makes the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon pickups and the Hummer H3 and H3T SUVs, will be closed for three weeks.
In Mexico, GM will close its plants that makes the Silverado and Sierra pickups as well as the Chevrolet Avalanche and Cadillac EXT SUVs for eight weeks.
The Wentzville, Mo., plant, which assembles the GMC Savana and Chevrolet Express full-size vans, popular for commercial fleets including airport parking lots, will be down five weeks.
"So will everyones standard of living. You and many others are to blind to see that though."...I do see it...what you don't see is that some jobs simply are not worth over $10-15/hour...just because someone has 4 kids and wants a 5000 sq ft home on a lake does not make an unskilled job worth more...NOT because I say so, because the market says so...only in UAW land has any type of unskilled labor been paid far in excess of what it is worth anywhere else in this nation...that is the fantasyland of the UAW...with no one buying the cars, the hidden things like wages are now coming to the forefront, and GM does not stand a chance paying wages like that...it is, simply, a great run that is now over...
As far as a 3rd party, we have one...Libertarian...I think they would gain great traction if they would drop the "legalize heroin" plank and keep everything else...buy then they would not be tru to themselves...
DETROIT (AP) - General Motors ' decision to shut down 13 assembly plants for up to 11 weeks this summer will disrupt far more than the lives of nearly 24,000 workers, rippling out to damage part suppliers, local businesses and state economies.
The Detroit automaker had little choice. GM, surviving on $13.4 billion in federal loans, must steady itself, slash costs and align production levels with the shrunken demand if it wants to live much longer. The announcement Thursday comes as GM races the government's June 1 deadline to squeeze deeper concessions from bondholders and the United Auto Workers union.
The decision is expected to lead to thousands more layoffs and temporary factory closures as GM works out its schedules for engine, transmission and parts stamping factories.
That's bad new for Lordstown, Ohio, where GM operates side-by-side assembly and stamping plants, which account for about 70 percent of the village's annual $4 million municipal budget, Mayor Michael Chaffee said. Suppliers and spin-off businesses add another 5 percent in the community of 3,800.
The Lordstown assembly plant, which makes Chevrolet Cobalt and Pontiac G5 compacts, is slated to shut down for five weeks starting June 1. GM didn't disclose shutdown details about stamping and powertrain plants, but it stands to reason their parts won't be needed if so many assembly plants stop making cars.
"Any shutdown short- and long-term is of concern both from the standpoint of dollars flowing into the community but also the psychological effect that it has both locally and nationally upon folks," said Walter Good, a vice president at the Youngstown-Warren Regional Chamber.
In Parma, Ohio, Cleveland's biggest suburb, the GM stamping plant has about 1,200 employees and represents 8 percent of the city's income tax revenue.
"It's our largest taxpayer and there are a number of smaller businesses that feed off of or supply parts to or work with General Motors," Mayor Dean DePiero said. "It's an important part of our fabric."
The GM work force helps support convenience stores, service stations, bars and restaurants, the mayor said. "That trickles down into many aspects of our local economy so business owners may take a hit. It's not just about those employees or that plant."
GM said the shutdowns will help control high dealer inventories and bring production in line with sales. The company plans to cut production by 190,000 vehicles.
The carmaker's sales fell 49 percent in the first three months of this year as U.S. auto sales fell to a 27-year low.
Not even deep discounts, White House-backed warranties, and a program that covers laid-off buyers' payments seem to be helping GM sell more vehicles. Although it's still the nation's largest automaker in terms of market share, GM has more than a six-month supply of several models stacking up on its lots, including the Pontiac G5 compact and Chevrolet Silverado hybrid pickup truck.
Automakers and analysts expect sales to improve in the second half of the year as the economy and consumer confidence recovers, and government stimulus programs take effect. GM North America President Troy Clarke said the company isn't making the cuts because it sees sales worsening beyond current projections.
"Instead of spending the whole year to get the inventory in line, we really needed to get it in line much quicker," Clarke said.
While the move gives dealers an opportunity to clear away an overstock of cars and trucks, parts makers will suffer while GM isn't buying their products.
"For those suppliers, that nine weeks, combined with the continued uncertainty about what the U.S. government is intending to do with GM and Chrysler, could mean the difference between life and death," said Patrick Anderson of Anderson Economic Group in East Lansing, Mich.
Although GM has been under government supervision since it got its first slice of government money Dec. 31, the decision to extend the plant closures for longer than normal was made by the company, Clarke said.
The Treasury Department would not say what if any role the Obama administration played in GM's decision.
Members of the government's automobile task force have set up shop at GM's Detroit headquarters, working alongside executives to guide the drastic changes that are needed. The Treasury Department insisted that CEO Rick Wagoner step down March 29, a day before the Obama administration deemed GM and Chrysler's restructuring plans insufficient and gave the companies strict deadlines to qualify for more aid.
GM has 22 assembly plants in North America. It normally shuts them down for two weeks each summer to prepare for the new model year, but besides Lordstown, there will be more downtime at plants in Arlington, Texas; Bowling Green, Ky.; Detroit-Hamtramck, Mich.; Flint, Mich.; Fort Wayne, Ind.; Lansing, Mich.; Pontiac, Mich.; Shreveport, La.; Spring Hill, Tenn.; Wilmington, Del.; Wentzville, Mo.; and Silao, Mexico.
The longest shutdown is 11 weeks at Fort Wayne, which makes the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickup trucks.
Laid-off hourly workers will get unemployment benefits and supplemental pay from the company that amounts to most of their base wages. Salaried workers also will get some income, Clarke said.
In a conference call with reporters, Clarke would not say if any of the factories would be closed for good. GM has told the government it plans to permanently close five more factories as part of its restructuring plan, and its CEO said additional closures are possible.
Nearly all automakers with U.S. factories have temporarily closed plants or cut production to deal with the auto sales slump.
The state of Michigan is still in triage from indefinite industry layoffs and the extended plant closures by all three Detroit automakers in December and January, which "already led to declines in employment and a spike in the unemployment rate," said Liz Boyd, spokeswoman for Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm.
Michigan's March unemployment rate was 12.6 percent, the nation's highest, with 609,000 residents out of work. The state has lost 230,000 auto-related manufacturing jobs in the past nine years, leaving it with just 125,000.
"The problem on a nine- or 10-week shutdown ... (is that workers) are not likely to be spending as they normally would, because there's no guarantee that in nine weeks they'll be back to work," said Michigan Senate Fiscal Agency director Gary Olson. "That's certainly going to have an impact on retail sales, on the tourism business in this state."
Wonder what share the company gives them. With no company share, each worker out 9 weeks making $60k a year would be out about $4000 after taxes total after using 2 weeks of vac. then, a place like Ft. Wayne with 10000 workers out loses $40M in local spending. Thats like 4000 businesses each losing $10000 of business each, this year. Too bad the fix is for gas to be affordable in a V8 truck.
Those losing their jobs at GM are still small potatoes compared to the 600,000 that are losing their jobs every month across the nation. Many because of the auto industry. Most because of the housing industry crash. At least the UAW workers had the opportunity to save plenty with those big fat paychecks. They knew since 2005 this was more than likely. They should have been saving at least half their pay for this very day. If they did not it is not the tax payers fault. Even when I made only $100 per week I saved at least 10% of my gross pay. I was supporting a wife in College making that much. It can be done on $15 per hour easily if a person uses their head. Too bad the UAW did not teach common sense to all those losers that filed for BK when the OT was cut back.
Losing your job at Wal~Mart or McDonalds doesn't have the affect of a UAW worker. The ripple affect of the UAW losing everything will make those 600,000 job losses look small potatoes with the ripple effect of several million jobs and billions in lost taxes hit our economy. Do you really want to see the domino affect???
I will be real surprised if 60,000 UAW workers losing their jobs will generate more than twice that number. It will only affect the GM dealers in the biggest markets. Very little else in states like NY, CA and TX.
The real issue is someone losing a low paying job is likely to be more devastated than the over paid UAW worker losing their job. You have a sick sense of what is fair. How are the people that worked in the two dealerships you watched die any less deserving of a job than a UAW worker. At least they did not drive the company into bankruptcy with high wages, benefits and legacy costs. The UAW is a large part of the reason GM and Chrysler are facing bankruptcy. Your inability to see the truth does not change the facts in the case. I hope those workers that would not give a penny of their wage package or golden Health care plan up are happy with the devastation you claim will happen.
Even socialist leaning Obama sees the UAW as 50% of the problem.
i am sorry, even though i live in NH i would much rather help out all those GM workers by buying a cobalt than the south koreans by buying a kia...i dont understand why some americans just dont seem to care about the people in midwest...i go to dealers and all the kias i have seen are assembled there with asian parts...that aint helping anyone in ohio or michigan
It is a big effort to go retrain yourself. I spent over 6 years doing it. You can't expect a person with 27 years in at GM assembly plant to go through that.
One of the hallmarks of higher paid professionals is those who are adaptable. I expect anybody who is not forward-looking, who can't learn or change, to do poorly. No job is going to be stable or unchanged, skills-wise, for 30 years.
I have been working professionally for 30 years. I have made major changes in my field twice and added a master's degree in mid-career. If somebody is too old to learn they are too old to do well in the workplace. Sorry, that's how it is.
One of the hallmarks of higher paid professionals is those who are adaptable. I expect anybody who is not forward-looking, who can't learn or change, to do poorly. No job is going to be stable or unchanged, skills-wise, for 30 years
I think you've nailed it with this one! I've been a EE for around 40 years now. The products I design and the tools I use today were not even a gleam in someone's eye back when I got my BS and MS. It's been said that the half-life of knowledge in my industry is 5 years, which means that every 5 years, half of what you know is irrelevant, and that in 10 years 75% is irrelevant. That means that in order to succeed (and survive) you need to re-invent yourself about every 10 or 15 years. That's just the way the high-tech industry moves.
Those that think they can go to school (or not, as the case may be), get a job, and then keep that job for the next 40 years without continually upgrading their skill set are in for a rude awakening. And that goes for assembly line workers too. Unfortunately, the members of the UAW never seemed to grasp that.
Unfortunately, the members of the UAW never seemed to grasp that.
When you are told from the time you are in the cradle that the UAW will get you more pay than you can make doing anything else, it is difficult to break that mindset. Unions are formed to give workers one strong voice on the job. That job is still provided by someone with the money to produce something. When the money is all gone so are the jobs and the Union. The real sad part to me is they treat education as worthless in the UAW. The UAW members have had at least 30 years to prepare for this day. Those that did are the smart ones. I feel sorry for the low paying jobs that will be impacted by the demise of GM and Chrysler. I have very little sadness for those that have helped destroy the company they work for. It looks like the UAW has brought at least two of the D3 to their knees for the last time.
The real sad part to me is they treat education as worthless in the UAW. The UAW members have had at least 30 years to prepare for this day. Those that did are the smart ones.
Within last half-year, WSJ had an article about a woman who was a GM UAW assembly line worker who went to school at night for many years and acheived a college Bachelor degree. She ultimately left GM, pursued more education and is now a professor at a university.
Would hope that there are a lot of other success stories out there about former UAW workers. Perhaps some of them acheived BS and higher and others left to start own small and now successful business. Maybe media has not looked for these people, as did WSJ, to highlight UAW workers who are now happy and financially sound in other ventures. They must be out there. Their stories would be inspiration to all the doom-and-gloom people on this board and in the media.
Would hope that there are a lot of other success stories out there about former UAW workers. Perhaps some of them acheived BS and higher and others left to start own small and now successful business. Maybe media has not looked for these people, as did WSJ, to highlight UAW workers who are now happy and financially sound in other ventures. They must be out there. Their stories would be inspiration to all the doom-and-gloom people on this board and in the media.
I'm sure there are plenty of success stories out there, but alas the media is kinda like the TNT network... "We Know Drama". And drama, strife, etc seems to draw more interest than happy endings.
"The ripple affect of the UAW losing everything will make those 600,000 job losses look small potatoes with the ripple effect of several million jobs and billions in lost taxes hit our economy. Do you really want to see the domino affect???"...
No, rocky, I don't WANT to see the ripple/domino effect...but you do not grasp the simple fact that the UAW killed the golden goose and now they are suffering, AND CAUSING, the very ripple effect that scares you (and me)...they did not function in a vacuum...for all of mgmt's errors, there is still a quality gap of 25-plus years that has caused Americans to switch over to import cars, thereby causing a drop in market share for the Big 3...until they decrease their payroll to be equal to the drop in production, they can NEVER, I repeat never, be profitable...and out of profits comes jobs...no profit, no jobs...no jobs, ripple effect of that job loss...sadly, there can be no other way...what other realistic solution can there be???
They saw this coming for years...not months, but years (tlong quote "It is a big effort to go retrain yourself. I spent over 6 years doing it. You can't expect a person with 27 years in at GM assembly plant to go through that.
One of the hallmarks of higher paid professionals is those who are adaptable. I expect anybody who is not forward-looking, who can't learn or change, to do poorly")...an intelligent person would have done SOMETHING to adapt and add to, or change their skill level...they did nothing...
The suppliers also saw this coming...they may deny it but they saw it...as GM's orders for (whatever) decreased due to dropping market share, they HAD to see what was just over the horizon...like children, they covered themselves with a blanket, knowing that as long as they cannot see the monster, the monster cannot see them...but that is for children, and the adults acted like children...
I feel bad for those who are caught in this economic vise-grip...but any blind fool could see it for at least 5 years...the UAW simply had it made for their skill level, and they, without any hesitation whatsoever, killed the golden goose...
There is no one else to blame, they can only look in the mirror...
Well done and not bad for someone living in Altanta, Ga...I assume the old Ford assembly plt near the airport is still cranking out cars??? The Taurus and Sable were last made there.
Yep, the unions sure raised our std of living, now the Asians and Chinese have taken over..
What is really amazing about this forum is that probably 95% of the postings are from persons who have no automotive background other than their foreign car dealership..
The real fallout from the collapse of GM & Chrysler will be the supply side with lots of UAW and other unions getting their pink slips..The resultant volume cutbacks will hurt Ford whereas their supply vendor base will not be able to survive on the lower volumes.
I spent 30 yrs on the supply side and the 2/3 of the companies I represented as a mfgr rep are gone..or sold to foreign concerns..Hot-forge operations & steel castings..SUV suspension parts and Army tank track shoes..
With the liberal takeover of the Auto business one can kiss anything they touch as a goner...The only thing left will be the UAW headquarters on Jefferson Ave in Detroit which will be busy handing out care-packages and providing tent-city accomodations for their members.. The only thing the UAW ever did was complain about having to do anything for their paycheck..It was an adversial relationship,and for the UAW workers driving foreign cars and complaining about the products they were assembling for the Big3, the day of reckoning is here..The merry-go-round has stopped and of course they blame management!!! Fat-city will go on a diet..
".....been said that the half-life of knowledge in my industry is 5 years, which means that every 5 years, half of what you know is irrelevant, and that in 10 years 75% is irrelevant. That means that in order to succeed (and survive) you need to re-invent yourself about every 10 or 15 years. That's just the way the high-tech industry moves."
Just curious, how much of what you learn "reinventing" yourself is done on the job, or by taking classes at a college, or seminars??
"What is really amazing about this forum is that probably 95% of the postings are from persons who have no automotive background other than their foreign car dealership.."...my background is much more than that...but, one only has to understand the business model for profitability to comprehend what is happening to the Big 3 and the UAW...one does not need to be a UAW member to understand this situation any more then one has to be a pilot to understand what the mechanics union did to Eastern Airlines...
Nobody forced Amricans to buy what they believe to be the better Japanese products...they were pushed there by American quality problems...
"The real fallout from the collapse of GM & Chrysler will be the supply side with lots of UAW and other unions getting their pink slips..The resultant volume cutbacks will hurt Ford whereas their supply vendor base will not be able to survive on the lower volumes"...and what is your point???...isn't this obvious, that the suppliers will suffer simply because Americans bought a superior competetive product and deserted the Big 3???...up until the mid-80s, we had no place to go, as the Big 3 gave us the only thing we could buy...the product quality simply kept going down the tubes and the UAW did not care because they believed they had us by the "short ones"...we found an alternative and now the fallout is finally sinking in...one does not need a degree in automotive engineering to figure this out...
Frankly, the person who was fed up with Big 3 poor quality, walked into a Honda Dealer and walked out happy, never to buy Big 3 again is, AN EXPERT!!!...he found something that makes him happy, better than waht he was forced to buy in previous years...that makes him an expert for him and only him...now, multiple him by millions of buyers who have left the Big 3 forever, and that is all the expert training they need...THEY LIKED THE HONDA BETTER...that makes them an eminent expert in what they want to buy, and that, plus lousy work habits and an arrogant attitude is what will sink GM, UAW and all the upstream suppliers...thet are simply the final consequence of making a lousy product that millions no longer want to buy...that is sufficient expert opinion...even now the UAW wants to strike SOMEWHERE, so they have not learned a thing since 1980s...talk about the failure to adapt, the UAW is a textbook case of dinosaur mentality leading UAW sheeple to their doom, and no one is smart enough to see it...what lemmings they must be to still follow UAW leadership like mindless idiots...yeah, sure, "highly skilled" "well trained" "intelligent and smart"...not those people, they are, simply, mentally handicapped people who have been well paid for little work for 50 years and now that gravy train is coming to a screeching halt...
You got that right. We shall be witness to Darwin's theory first hand. We will see the strong survive, the adaptable adapt and survive, and the slow movers disappear into the wild.
>What is really amazing about this forum is that probably 95% of the postings are from persons who have no automotive background other than their foreign car dealership..
Why do you call it amazing?
I think it is natural. People cannot see the big picture when they are part of the mess. Only somebody standing outside can see the mess on a holistic level.
Getting to the place where Auto workers have paid Taxes for 100 years and now become something other than a Tax payer kinda makes you vomit? but give me the money taken with interest and God bless you all I wouldn"t need a Pension. The weeks the Government took 600 a week from my pay was a big hurt but I thought that when I retire the country would take care of me (wrong) I thought when I went into the Navy I did for my country? (why should anyone give to a country that takes your contract and scraps it for all the years of service giving taxes out of my pay ) Give me my money back!
" For Darwin, cooperation between individuals could be an adaptive strategy in many environments as individual reproductive success increases through the safety and support of the group." Primate Diaries
Sounds rather like a union. :shades:
"The United Auto Workers on Friday dismissed speculation on a deal with the Obama administration for Chrysler to undergo a "quick rinse" bankruptcy that could lead to a merger with Fiat.
Union spokesman Roger Kerson refused to comment publicly on reports of a deal that would lead Chrysler to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
But other UAW officials said the US Treasury, which is handling the negotiations, was waiting for a response from Chrysler's principal creditors on proposals that would eliminate more than half the company's 6.9 billion dollars in debt in exchange for equity in the reorganized company."
Just curious, how much of what you learn "reinventing" yourself is done on the job, or by taking classes at a college, or seminars
Cootrbfb-Almost all of was OJT, company run/sponsored courses, or just plain self taught. I have not taken a formal college level course since I completed my Master's degree years ago. Took some seminars that were sponsored/run by companies like Agilent and other EDA firms.
Though it hasn't always been this way, my company now has a sizable catalog of courses taught in-house and through the local community college. In house courses are more specific and tool oriented, such as one on how to use Mentor Graphics or Unigraphics, Matlab, etc. Courses through the community college are mostly for PC and related topics. My company also has a per-employee training budget that alos anyone to spend ~20 hrs/year on training. New hires get a lot more training - several weeks spread over the course of a year.
also believe in survival of the fittest???...isn't THAT how nature evolves and progresses to become better???
GM/F/C are no longer the best or the fittest...I blame the UAW but others may not...either way, they are having trouble surviving in this market, and they have lost to the competition...if this was a nature preserve, GM/F/C would literally wither and die, but in the legal sense they can file Ch 11 and dump the dead weight and hopefully survive with a second chance that would NOT be granted in nature...
Their union model is one of inefficiency and their entire method of carmaking, once the envy of the world, is now part of the trash heap of history...the dinosaurs once ruled the world, then died off and we now use them up in our gas tanks...the dinosaurs are also part of the trash heap of history, as are UAW/GM/F/C...the world of automaking must change and evolve to survive, and they are unwilling to do so...
Let the UAW join the Eastern Airline mechanics in "sticking it to the man"...the fact that their jobs evaporate into thin air simply shows...no, PROVES, that the intelligence level of the UAW is somewhere between moron and idiot, because no one with even average intelligence would march themselves to their own destruction and be proud that they are doing it...
I think Darwin was referring to species, not individuals. Individuals tend to survive better by cooperating.
"It’s not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent but those most adaptive to change. – Charles Darwin" (link)
Unions (guilds) have been around for centuries. The UAW may be fading away. Or maybe they'll start cooperating better with the automakers and return to the glory days.
if we have 50 million people out of work, there will be a lot of angry ex union workers so maybe their critics should remember that
That might be a tad bit high. I think the total workforce is like 120 million people. Most of the 10+ million currently out of work is housing related. The auto industry people have a very inflated view of their importance in the US economy. The total with dealerships and auto parts cannot total 5% of the total workforce. The trickle down effect is already upon US as a result of the housing bubble crash. The auto industry and especially the UAW will have no real noticeable affect. It is just rhetoric from the UAW to try and keep the status quo.
The total with dealerships and auto parts cannot total 5% of the total workforce. The trickle down effect is already upon US as a result of the housing bubble crash. The auto industry and especially the UAW will have no real noticeable affect. It is just rhetoric from the UAW to try and keep the status quo.
Amen brother Amen! The U.S. labor force is now 150 million. Total automotive related jobs and the so-called "ripple effect" will not mean beans to over 95% of the U.S.
It has been reported that the CAW and Chrysler have reached an agreement on a new contract. There are steep cuts to time off, the SUB fund, efficiencies (????? I would have thought that the plants were operating efficiently. Maybe that is why the D3 are in such big trouble), but no cuts to wages or pensions. It will be interesting to see the final contract. Rumour has it that Fiat will buy Chrysler out of bankruptcy. Time is running out........
Seems that a couple of times a week, something is on the news concerning companies cutting hours on employees, in order to maintain full employment.
A report recently on Fox, stated that the Postal Service is one such employer contemplating cutting deliveries to 5 days a week. This would save them millions each month in wages and fuel. According to the report, they can maintain full employment, even though it would/could result in a 16% reduction in wages to most workers. .
I wonder that even now, do they don't pay folks to sit around and do nothing, "IN CASE" someone doesn't show up for work?
Unions as well as all other employees are going to have to face facts.
".....Almost all of was OJT, company run/sponsored courses, or just plain self taught. I have not taken a formal college level course since I completed my Master's degree years ago."
I think that's great. OJT, nothing better!!! Verizon does it.
Unfortunately, we don't hear too much of OJT anymore. Most companies want a 22 yr old w/ 30 yrs experience to work for $1 below minimum wage, and offer no OJT. They may pay for college courses though.
Unfortunately, we don't hear too much of OJT anymore
OJT is not what it once was in the telco business. My first step by step school was 9 months 8 hours per day. My last school on the latest DMS100 version was a funky online program that I hated. The CD they sent kept locking up the computer. Causing restarts and frustration. Not to mention the wasted company time. I preferred class room teaching. Especially in nice locations in Florida. Last was in 2001 Sarasota, FL. All classes after that were online. :sick:
The real kicker was the company budgeted money for OJT and our Union contract required the company to keep employees up to date on new equipment. Much of the budget was spent sending supervisors to the good schools. And they were to pass the information to the guys in the field.
Not something we would go on strike for. If the UAW had learned to pick their fights more carefully, they may still be a large vibrant Union. They should have also made an effort to stay within reason for wages. Paying a line person in a factory close to $30 per hour is just crazy. I would look for the non-union auto makers to cut wages when the UAW goes under.
The Big Three didn't adapt to the competition but offered heavy cars based on full-sized cars and rarely got great gas mileage.
So you admit their stuff was not what people wanted at the time. Yet:
The foreign brands were given access to our markets by lack of foresight in government (surprise that that happened, isn't it) and by lack of adaptation by the Big Three.
So in your book "oversight" would be forcing ALL your citizens to buy inferior and unwanted product (at least as perceived by those who bought the imports) to protect interest of small minority of people who were too lazy, too arrogant or too stupid to notice peoplw wanted something different? That is not "oversight" in my book - that is a criminal racket. I'm glad the government of this country decided that interest of 98% of people is more important than the remaining 2%. At least in this case, which we are discussing now. I define oversight as allowing as many of your citizens as possible, not just "chosen few" to enjoy the best products and lifestyle they possibly can. If that means that a few fat cats of your own kind have to starve and die, so be it. Yes, yes - AIG, Dallasdude already told that many times. We are not discussing AIG now, so let's not start again.
All professional group/special interest "defenders" (not only labor unions, trade groups, lobbying organizations, etc.) have been really successful in convincing people that they "belong" to some kind of group, which needs special treatment/potection - of course at expense of the rest. Then they turn around and tell the rest of us, that it's all for our own good that we bear that cost of that privilidge and protectio. What's worst, people don't realize that those groups create classic "prisoner's dilemma" where at the end everybody loses because at the end everybody gets some of that special protection, which ultimately inflates the cost of doing any business.
Moreover, people are trained (in really Pavlovian sense) to think about themselves in terms of jobs/professions/businesses they do, rather than what they do in the entire rest of their life. I am and will be engineer for about 1/6th of my life - for the rest I am a consumer.
Now, which is better: be "protected" 1/6th of that life by labor contracts, "fair" employment laws and all that socialistic crap, or be protected for the 5/6th of the life by strong competition laws, anti-truts, free market, ensuring that the providers of any or service product I buy remain on their toes, almost scared they may lose it to the guy next door or across the ocean. This also means I have to be scared, too - for this 1/6th of my life, but that's the price I'm willing to pay so the rest I live having choices and knowing that everybody else really appreciates whatever money I have to bring.
Excellent post. The notion that government should act as a gatekeeper & decide what we should & should not buy is left-wing garbage that was thoroughly discredited when the Soviet Union collapsed. The UAW & its hand-wringing lefty apologists have revived this idiotic idea to justify mugging the taxpayers for bailout dollars.
The UAW & its hand-wringing lefty apologists have revived this idiotic idea
Look at the roots of the UAW. Reuther was as close to a card carrying Communist as anyone in this country. To make him anything else is trying to revise history. He spent time in the Soviet Union and shaped the UAW to be like their Unions.
Reuther was born in Wheeling, West Virginia, the son of a socialist brewery worker who had emigrated from Germany. In his entire career he was close to his brothers and co-workers Victor Reuther and Roy Reuther. Reuther joined the Ford Motor Company but was laid off as the Great Depression worsened. He and his brothers went to Europe and then worked 1933-35 in an auto plant at Gorky in the Soviet Union.
What Reuther and the UAW would like are the entitlements of Socialism without the political control. When in fact they are inseparable. When you control the companies you take their freedom. That in turn takes everyone's freedom. Even those that seem to be in control.
>lack of foresight in government (surprise that that happened, isn't it) and by lack of adaptation by the Big Three
Read the post again: "Lack of adaptation by the Big Three..." "Lack of foresight in government..."
I'm not sure where the rest of your post is relevant to mine. Mine was that the UAW is partly at fault along with many others who didn't foresee what people like the Chinese have; they require GM to be buddied up with a Chinese company to build cars there. Perhaps the US should have done thus.
ALL of the US automotive industry did not have foresight...otherwise how could this happen? :sick:
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car) Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car
1) Is it any wonder that: a) "Detroit automakers declined to discuss the programs in detail or say exactly how much they are spending," and b) the Big Three asked for a bailout after spending more than $4 billion on an outdated "jobs bank" program over the last four years?
2) If the Big Three hadn't wasted an estimated $4 billion from 2005-2008 paying idled "workers" not to "work," what could they have done with that money? Well, they could have produced about 200,000 cars at an average cost of $20,000 or built 8 new factories at an average cost of $550 million.
3) Speculation: Without the burden of the jobs bank, and the $4.2 billion estimated cost of the jobs bank over the last four years, the Big 3 wouldn't be begging for a handout today. Even if the hourly wages of the Big Three are now comparable to wages at Toyota and Honda, and even if the productivity gap has narrowed, the cost of the job banks to Big Three is probably one of the biggest factors contributing to their competitive disadvantage and one of the biggest reasons they are facing bankruptcy today.
If the UAW had agreed five years ago to end the jobs bank, the Big Three wouldn't be in so much trouble today, and wouldn't have gone to taxpayers begging for a handout.
Funny how both the financial industry and the auto industry went begging after repeated failure to understand their respective markets and businesses and in the end the taxpayers foot the bill.
From now on, there is no right or wrong just re-balancing. The market will adjust to the best product manufacturers be they in autos or financial instruments.
The UAW will morph into a small auto financial system...much like a credit union. They will actually make money moving forward as their model changes as well.
"I think Darwin was referring to species, not individuals. Individuals tend to survive better by cooperating."...and I think you are right...overall, it was species that would survive or die...
But, as long as the species DOES survive, there will always be those individuals, esp in [non-permissible content removed] sapien, who rise to the top and survive "better"...the UAW was one such animal, doing better than most for the lack of skills they had...but, again, they did not relaize how good they had it, so they killed the golden goose that fed them...now, they will die, but the species will live on...
I read today, as I predicted, that GM will dump Pontiac, as it only has a few worthwhile models, nothing to build a brand name on...they may sell it, but who would buy it???...they will salvage the G series and absorb it into Chevrolet...as I said...Chevy, Caddy and a Truck brand, call it Chevy or GMC...the rest is gone...
Quoted from circlew: GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
rocky, if GM cannot make money making over 9 million vehicles, something is wrong with their cost structure...can you spell U-A-W??? I assume by now the reality of what the rest of the country (non-UAW) has known for decades is finally sinking through...they are not wroth what they have been paid for years...did they get thru the free market of capitalism???...yes...but that same free market has come back to bite them because they priced themselves out of the market...the market giveth and the market taketh away...now they will wither away and the Big 3 will slash their cost structure and start acting like a normal company...too bad they waited 20-plus years to do it (back in 1983 or 1984, after GM's first losing year since, like 1925, Roger Smith could have taken a long strike and broken the UAW...like a fool he capitulated in about six weeks to their demands...he could have been a hero to the nation by breaking the UAW but he gave in...so it took another 20-plus years but it just may happen, and this nation will certainly be better for it)...
Comments
I said they are sheep that believed the lies the leadership fed them. They believed that someone with no education doing menial work should make more than folks doing the same job for half the wages. Just because they beat an ignorant management team down with strikes and work stoppages, does not change reality. There are limits to what a worker is worth. It has to do with profitability of the product they produce. When the company started bleeding red ink, Gettlefinger or who ever was President of the UAW, should have told the troops. We got cut back wages and benefits to make GM profitable. Instead they go on strike. That is my basis for giving the UAW a black eye, by giving Unions that show some restraint a bad name. I don't expect you to understand. You have been brainwashed since you were a baby.
PS
I meant what I said about Wagoner, Reuther, Hoffa etc. Most Alaska Teamsters are ashamed that Jimmy Hoffa was ever involved with our Union. He was a no good murdering cheat and should rot in hell.
I gotta tell ya, when Mitsubishi came out with this new world order Lancer bodystyle, I was drug towards Mitsubishi like Gary Payton was glued to Michael Jordan during an NBA playoff game. Payton and Kemp and George Karl, now, gagrice, it's athletes like this that make what they do...because they are stars, they draw people to watch them purely for great entertainment value, they make what they do because they generate income for employers like ESPN, the NBA, the NBA franchises, etc. And CEO's, I know people don't wanna hear it, fall in to this category.
CEO's of Ford, Chrysler(I know, they're not a very good example), GM...their CEO's have a heavy responsibility to turn a profit for their stockholders, if they're a publicly owned and stock-traded entity. Wagoner was a buffoon, rock, when I even heard him speak I thought it was Lurch's brother.
But gagrice puts it very clear, he has spelled it out for so long on here that you'd have to be a complete Neanderthal to not understand it. The UAW has sucked off the teat of GM and sucked then completely dry. Nothing left. Bankruptcy.
And rock, foreign cars rock. My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS not only looks like a million bucks, when I sit idling it's engine, it is so quiet and delightfully completely heartening to hear, that I just giggle and chuckle to myself in delight.
This is what it's all about. With the internet, I knew about the new world order Lancer's from Mitsu so early, I could uncover even the darkest little secrets about the car and totally satisfy myself with knowledge that I never could've known about shopping for a rig without the interweb. Truth be that.
Oh, a dental update. Remember when I told you guys I was heading down to Mexico for dental tx? Well, I went down there and, as it turns out, I picked a Mexican dentist that charges what the Big Boy American dentist's charge!
I ended up just heading to a Tucson dentist. I go later today to let him look at my bridge he is in the process of building in the lower left region of my mouth. I already have new crowns in the upper region. These babies look great but cost a fortune. I needed an extraction for the bridge and I've been popping 800mg Ibuprofen all week to cope with the pain. Hopefully he'll tweak something today in the bridge project to alleviate some pain. The extraction tooth wouldn't give up the goods so he had to really bust and split down there....ouch! :sick:
Anyhooo....rock, when I have written these long posts in the past that detail the path I took from the Aerospace industry in to going to college, getting a Respiratory Therapy degree and getting back in to the workforce, I have not been sharing this information for nothing. I have been there, I know about losing a good-paying job, of having an employer who would just as soon squish you like an ant than treat you right. Boeing does as they want, too many Big Boy Starbuck's Swillers and gloppy raspberry jelly donut eaters working there. They spend their time engrossed with their heads up other VIP's hindquarters in order to keep their jobs. I chose to bust my tail working for Boeing. They're too stupid and selfish to notice people's hard work.
I'm the guy who has a Mom living about 3/4 mile from the Everett Boeing plant. And the one who claims he wouldn't bat an eyelash of dispair if the whole plant slid off the banks in Mukilteo and in to the Puget Sound during one of the NW's horrible rain and mud storms. I wouldn't want Mom's house touched by the torment, but rocky, I remember advising you once to apply at Boeing.
Don't. You don't need their brand of employment. They lay people off with the flick of a bean-counters pen, and SPEEA and/or the International Aerospace Worker's Union's can't do squat to save you. They are the classic example of a Company too big for their own britches. One arm has no idea what the other arm is doing, and if someone smart tries to bust their tail and help them they show their gratitude by laying your butt off. To hell with them. Because that is just where the multitudes that rule there are going. As the Bible says, "they have full bellies and are having their reward in full," in this present system of things. Eat up, dorks, fatten your bellies, laugh and joke, shun God, and that will be it for you. Only a fool declares that there is no God, and that serving God is a shunnable idea. Truth that be, car-freaks.
I can only imagine GM being a similar type of place to work. I try to really work when I work, to make a difference in someone's life, therefore, healthcare fits me a lot better than manufacturing. But I have detailed out the path I took after Boeing, to benefit those in automobile manufacturing. I hope someone out there listens and retrains.
There is life after a good manufacturing job, and healthcare just continues to grow as boomers age, and unfortunately, need doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists to care for them.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
PS
Hoffa was more than likely killed by the mob he associated with. We will never know how much pension money was given to and lost in his dealings with organized crime. I would say Hoffa was more of a black mark in the history of the Teamsters. I hope his son is more above board. We had little to do with the International Teamsters. We were separated at birth because of the Hoffa's unholy alliance with the mob. Most likely Hoffa was killed in Michigan by the mob operating in that state. Reuther unlike Hoffa tied his allegiance to the USSR. He could have been killed because of his of cold war politics. We may never know as politics in the 60s and 70s were much more secretive than since.
When a company isn't profitable because it's having a hard time selling its products, the only people who should be blamed for this are the company's managers & employees. Either the company is building unsatisfactory products or the products are good but the company is doing a lousy job of advertising & marketing them. In either case, the company's problems are caused by its own bad business practices, & it's the company's responsibility to change the way that it does business.
As you might have guessed, I'm a hard-core free market capitalist, & blaming 3rd parties for a company's problems strikes me as part of a larger left-wing trend toward avoiding personal responsibility for failure. Sorry, but I'm not buying into this socialist fluff. If GM is going down the tubes, that's not my fault & it's not the fault of whatever magazines I read. It's GM's fault, pure & simple.
CR recently had to explain that there's little if any difference between their good and bad circles. In the past there had been a meaningful amount of difference in the circle ratings from their unscientific surveys supplemented with their own opinions. But in past years the quality differences had dropped so that there was little difference but they haven't changed their interpretation guidance so people could understand that a half circle might be trivial in difference from an open circle, etc
CR has explained this quite a few times over the past 10 years. (I'm a longtime subscriber.)
"But gagrice puts it very clear, he has spelled it out for so long on here that you'd have to be a complete Neanderthal to not understand it. The UAW has sucked off the teat of GM and sucked then completely dry. Nothing left. Bankruptcy."...that is the simple truth that will be forced down his and every other UAW throat...but until they open their eyes, and have SOME comprehension about business and profitability, they will NEVER, I repeat, never understand why they are disappearing from the planet...they were NEVER worth what they were paid, but they beat the odds for many years...now there is no more as they have sucked the source dry, and not one of them can see it clearly, if at all...
"
As for making the U.S. a trade free zone, we in Canada would love it. Don't forget that the U.S gets the largest share of your daily consumption of oil and gas from CANADA. If we didn't have to send so much to you, we would be able to be like some of the South American countries, where fuel is pennies per gallon. Go ahead, close the border, but don't look to us to help you with your energy demands.
The CAW will drive Chrysler into bankruptcy and our government has stated that they will NOT back the pension plans of either GM or Chrysler. The CAW is 'up in arms', but this again is just another "sense of entitlement". If the union leadership was 1/2 as smart as they thought, then they would have seen the stupidity of leaving the companies to manage the pension money. Now there is nothing left and they want the taxpayer to bail them out.
Actually the "sheeple" are the ignorant hicks that think they have the world by the [non-permissible content removed] that work for Hyundai for $14 bucks an hour.
The rubber band has finally broken and there is no more "flexibility"...rather than be satisfied as the highest paid but lowest skilled workers out there, like a drug addict, they simply could not stop, and they went for more...like the previous poster said, now the CUSTOMERS are on strike, and now their precious little UAW jobs are about to disappear and they are about to find out what their "skills" are REALLY worth, and it will not be pretty...
So will everyones standard of living. You and many others are to blind to see that though. :confuse:
Sadly, they will come home each night from job interviews, and they will lament that no one offers them more than $10-12/hour, and wonder where all the "good jobs" went...they killed the goose that laid the golden eggs and, 10 years from now, them and their kids will STILL be too self-centered to see it...they will go to their graves wondering why floorsweepers in Home Depot or WalMart don't make $60K per year with benefits...when compared with their skill level, they were probably the highest paid people in the USA, and they thinkl they are still worth twice as much...they aren't, they weren't, and they won't be...
Sadly millions of others will come home each night and realize it will be a race to the bottom. The american dream is dead and your serf n' elite eutopia is reality. We will turn into Mexico and then China. We will be the ones eating snakes and living in grass huts. :sick:
Nobody, esp the UAW leaders, ever told the "mindless sheeple" that their pay level was so far above their actual worth and that maybe, just maybe, they ought to just enjoy what they have...the "sheeple" are your people, mindless UAW people who believed the lies they were told (of course installing doors is worth $100K a year with overtime) and are ACTUALLY surprised that they are not...somebody needs to tell them that Alice is Wonderland was a fairy tale and so were their payscales...welcome to Reality...they are about to learn what unskilled labor is REALLY worth, and it won't be pretty...
Well I hope you are right because then all these "mindless" sheep will vote for a 3rd or 4th party into office.
Checked out that page, BTW...if that was the photo we were waiting for, maybe next time could do better...I was expecting to truly understand why she sold so many cars, and I found nothing to help me in that goal...I have enough trouble keeping up and posting with these topics...adding this "carspace" thing would drive me nuts, but thanks for offering...how do you people do it???...BTW, I have the same question for people with MySpace and Facebook and Twitter...who has the time to post to all these things and still live their lives???...which probably means that I am just a grumpy old man who does not see the value in posting one line twitters about my day...I tell Marsha (the real one) about my day, I cannot believe that anyone else would care, especially a 30 minute breakdown of my day...who can post that much, and whose life is that empty to want to do so???
LOL!!! :P
-Rocky
The system up here works very well and does not cost us a penny out of pocket.
I think you will admit your taxes are pretty high in most provinces. Hopefully your health care covers you adequately. I don't trust our government to administer Health care very well. They leave too much room for fraud in the health care services they now provide.
We are 100% on the same page with the stupidity of the UAW/CAW leadership.
Autonation's CEO is totally upset about how he can't sell econoboxes that he has paid dearly to load his used car lots up with. He wants gas to cost $4 so his business plan can come back in style.
It is a big effort to go retrain yourself. I spent over 6 years doing it. You can't expect a person with 27 years in at GM assembly plant to go through that. 3 years away from a pension and 4 years away from GM BK, what would you do? 99% of all people would not be taking night school classes.
These 9 week shutdowns starting in June will be probably be 6 weeks of unemployment and using up 2 weeks vac pay for most. Will the union chip in anything? Will the resorts in N. Michigan be crowded?
The guy is an incompetent. Now, I will never buy from his company forever just for the idiot remark. He has no clue how to make America's Car industry #1 again...just GREED and interest in getting his sales back. Obviously, he does not understand the market. Nothing is selling, Mr. Jackson, particularly NOT the gas guzzlers.
Guess what? The old business model that produced the gas guzzling trucks is gone forever. You don't need to raise taxes you need to mandate efficient vehicles, period!
Not surprisingly, the longest shutdowns are at GM plants that make trucks and big SUVs. Truck sales have been particularly low despite the richest incentives the industry has ever offered on them.
The Flint, Mich., assembly plant that produces versions of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra, will be closed for nine weeks. The Fort Wayne, Ind., plant that makes other versions of the Silverado and Sierra, will close for 11 weeks.The Pontiac, Mich., assembly plant that makes still-other iterations of the trucks, closes for seven weeks.
The full-size SUV plant in Arlington, Texas, will be down for eight weeks beginning the week of May 11 through the end of the week of July 6.
The Shreveport, La., plant that makes the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon pickups and the Hummer H3 and H3T SUVs, will be closed for three weeks.
In Mexico, GM will close its plants that makes the Silverado and Sierra pickups as well as the Chevrolet Avalanche and Cadillac EXT SUVs for eight weeks.
The Wentzville, Mo., plant, which assembles the GMC Savana and Chevrolet Express full-size vans, popular for commercial fleets including airport parking lots, will be down five weeks.
Regards,
OW
As far as a 3rd party, we have one...Libertarian...I think they would gain great traction if they would drop the "legalize heroin" plank and keep everything else...buy then they would not be tru to themselves...
DETROIT (AP) - General Motors ' decision to shut down 13 assembly plants for up to 11 weeks this summer will disrupt far more than the lives of nearly 24,000 workers, rippling out to damage part suppliers, local businesses and state economies.
The Detroit automaker had little choice. GM, surviving on $13.4 billion in federal loans, must steady itself, slash costs and align production levels with the shrunken demand if it wants to live much longer. The announcement Thursday comes as GM races the government's June 1 deadline to squeeze deeper concessions from bondholders and the United Auto Workers union.
The decision is expected to lead to thousands more layoffs and temporary factory closures as GM works out its schedules for engine, transmission and parts stamping factories.
That's bad new for Lordstown, Ohio, where GM operates side-by-side assembly and stamping plants, which account for about 70 percent of the village's annual $4 million municipal budget, Mayor Michael Chaffee said. Suppliers and spin-off businesses add another 5 percent in the community of 3,800.
The Lordstown assembly plant, which makes Chevrolet Cobalt and Pontiac G5 compacts, is slated to shut down for five weeks starting June 1. GM didn't disclose shutdown details about stamping and powertrain plants, but it stands to reason their parts won't be needed if so many assembly plants stop making cars.
"Any shutdown short- and long-term is of concern both from the standpoint of dollars flowing into the community but also the psychological effect that it has both locally and nationally upon folks," said Walter Good, a vice president at the Youngstown-Warren Regional Chamber.
In Parma, Ohio, Cleveland's biggest suburb, the GM stamping plant has about 1,200 employees and represents 8 percent of the city's income tax revenue.
"It's our largest taxpayer and there are a number of smaller businesses that feed off of or supply parts to or work with General Motors," Mayor Dean DePiero said. "It's an important part of our fabric."
The GM work force helps support convenience stores, service stations, bars and restaurants, the mayor said. "That trickles down into many aspects of our local economy so business owners may take a hit. It's not just about those employees or that plant."
GM said the shutdowns will help control high dealer inventories and bring production in line with sales. The company plans to cut production by 190,000 vehicles.
The carmaker's sales fell 49 percent in the first three months of this year as U.S. auto sales fell to a 27-year low.
Not even deep discounts, White House-backed warranties, and a program that covers laid-off buyers' payments seem to be helping GM sell more vehicles. Although it's still the nation's largest automaker in terms of market share, GM has more than a six-month supply of several models stacking up on its lots, including the Pontiac G5 compact and Chevrolet Silverado hybrid pickup truck.
Automakers and analysts expect sales to improve in the second half of the year as the economy and consumer confidence recovers, and government stimulus programs take effect. GM North America President Troy Clarke said the company isn't making the cuts because it sees sales worsening beyond current projections.
"Instead of spending the whole year to get the inventory in line, we really needed to get it in line much quicker," Clarke said.
While the move gives dealers an opportunity to clear away an overstock of cars and trucks, parts makers will suffer while GM isn't buying their products.
"For those suppliers, that nine weeks, combined with the continued uncertainty about what the U.S. government is intending to do with GM and Chrysler, could mean the difference between life and death," said Patrick Anderson of Anderson Economic Group in East Lansing, Mich.
Although GM has been under government supervision since it got its first slice of government money Dec. 31, the decision to extend the plant closures for longer than normal was made by the company, Clarke said.
The Treasury Department would not say what if any role the Obama administration played in GM's decision.
Members of the government's automobile task force have set up shop at GM's Detroit headquarters, working alongside executives to guide the drastic changes that are needed. The Treasury Department insisted that CEO Rick Wagoner step down March 29, a day before the Obama administration deemed GM and Chrysler's restructuring plans insufficient and gave the companies strict deadlines to qualify for more aid.
GM has 22 assembly plants in North America. It normally shuts them down for two weeks each summer to prepare for the new model year, but besides Lordstown, there will be more downtime at plants in Arlington, Texas; Bowling Green, Ky.; Detroit-Hamtramck, Mich.; Flint, Mich.; Fort Wayne, Ind.; Lansing, Mich.; Pontiac, Mich.; Shreveport, La.; Spring Hill, Tenn.; Wilmington, Del.; Wentzville, Mo.; and Silao, Mexico.
The longest shutdown is 11 weeks at Fort Wayne, which makes the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickup trucks.
Laid-off hourly workers will get unemployment benefits and supplemental pay from the company that amounts to most of their base wages. Salaried workers also will get some income, Clarke said.
In a conference call with reporters, Clarke would not say if any of the factories would be closed for good. GM has told the government it plans to permanently close five more factories as part of its restructuring plan, and its CEO said additional closures are possible.
Nearly all automakers with U.S. factories have temporarily closed plants or cut production to deal with the auto sales slump.
The state of Michigan is still in triage from indefinite industry layoffs and the extended plant closures by all three Detroit automakers in December and January, which "already led to declines in employment and a spike in the unemployment rate," said Liz Boyd, spokeswoman for Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm.
Michigan's March unemployment rate was 12.6 percent, the nation's highest, with 609,000 residents out of work. The state has lost 230,000 auto-related manufacturing jobs in the past nine years, leaving it with just 125,000.
"The problem on a nine- or 10-week shutdown ... (is that workers) are not likely to be spending as they normally would, because there's no guarantee that in nine weeks they'll be back to work," said Michigan Senate Fiscal Agency director Gary Olson. "That's certainly going to have an impact on retail sales, on the tourism business in this state."
-Rocky
The real issue is someone losing a low paying job is likely to be more devastated than the over paid UAW worker losing their job. You have a sick sense of what is fair. How are the people that worked in the two dealerships you watched die any less deserving of a job than a UAW worker. At least they did not drive the company into bankruptcy with high wages, benefits and legacy costs. The UAW is a large part of the reason GM and Chrysler are facing bankruptcy. Your inability to see the truth does not change the facts in the case. I hope those workers that would not give a penny of their wage package or golden Health care plan up are happy with the devastation you claim will happen.
Even socialist leaning Obama sees the UAW as 50% of the problem.
One of the hallmarks of higher paid professionals is those who are adaptable. I expect anybody who is not forward-looking, who can't learn or change, to do poorly. No job is going to be stable or unchanged, skills-wise, for 30 years.
I have been working professionally for 30 years. I have made major changes in my field twice and added a master's degree in mid-career. If somebody is too old to learn they are too old to do well in the workplace. Sorry, that's how it is.
I think you've nailed it with this one! I've been a EE for around 40 years now. The products I design and the tools I use today were not even a gleam in someone's eye back when I got my BS and MS. It's been said that the half-life of knowledge in my industry is 5 years, which means that every 5 years, half of what you know is irrelevant, and that in 10 years 75% is irrelevant. That means that in order to succeed (and survive) you need to re-invent yourself about every 10 or 15 years. That's just the way the high-tech industry moves.
Those that think they can go to school (or not, as the case may be), get a job, and then keep that job for the next 40 years without continually upgrading their skill set are in for a rude awakening. And that goes for assembly line workers too. Unfortunately, the members of the UAW never seemed to grasp that.
When you are told from the time you are in the cradle that the UAW will get you more pay than you can make doing anything else, it is difficult to break that mindset. Unions are formed to give workers one strong voice on the job. That job is still provided by someone with the money to produce something. When the money is all gone so are the jobs and the Union. The real sad part to me is they treat education as worthless in the UAW. The UAW members have had at least 30 years to prepare for this day. Those that did are the smart ones. I feel sorry for the low paying jobs that will be impacted by the demise of GM and Chrysler. I have very little sadness for those that have helped destroy the company they work for. It looks like the UAW has brought at least two of the D3 to their knees for the last time.
Within last half-year, WSJ had an article about a woman who was a GM UAW assembly line worker who went to school at night for many years and acheived a college Bachelor degree. She ultimately left GM, pursued more education and is now a professor at a university.
Would hope that there are a lot of other success stories out there about former UAW workers. Perhaps some of them acheived BS and higher and others left to start own small and now successful business. Maybe media has not looked for these people, as did WSJ, to highlight UAW workers who are now happy and financially sound in other ventures. They must be out there. Their stories would be inspiration to all the doom-and-gloom people on this board and in the media.
I'm sure there are plenty of success stories out there, but alas the media is kinda like the TNT network... "We Know Drama". And drama, strife, etc seems to draw more interest than happy endings.
No, rocky, I don't WANT to see the ripple/domino effect...but you do not grasp the simple fact that the UAW killed the golden goose and now they are suffering, AND CAUSING, the very ripple effect that scares you (and me)...they did not function in a vacuum...for all of mgmt's errors, there is still a quality gap of 25-plus years that has caused Americans to switch over to import cars, thereby causing a drop in market share for the Big 3...until they decrease their payroll to be equal to the drop in production, they can NEVER, I repeat never, be profitable...and out of profits comes jobs...no profit, no jobs...no jobs, ripple effect of that job loss...sadly, there can be no other way...what other realistic solution can there be???
They saw this coming for years...not months, but years (tlong quote "It is a big effort to go retrain yourself. I spent over 6 years doing it. You can't expect a person with 27 years in at GM assembly plant to go through that.
One of the hallmarks of higher paid professionals is those who are adaptable. I expect anybody who is not forward-looking, who can't learn or change, to do poorly")...an intelligent person would have done SOMETHING to adapt and add to, or change their skill level...they did nothing...
The suppliers also saw this coming...they may deny it but they saw it...as GM's orders for (whatever) decreased due to dropping market share, they HAD to see what was just over the horizon...like children, they covered themselves with a blanket, knowing that as long as they cannot see the monster, the monster cannot see them...but that is for children, and the adults acted like children...
I feel bad for those who are caught in this economic vise-grip...but any blind fool could see it for at least 5 years...the UAW simply had it made for their skill level, and they, without any hesitation whatsoever, killed the golden goose...
There is no one else to blame, they can only look in the mirror...
Yep, the unions sure raised our std of living, now the Asians and Chinese have taken over..
What is really amazing about this forum is that probably 95% of the postings are from persons who have no automotive background other than their foreign car dealership..
The real fallout from the collapse of GM & Chrysler will be the supply side with lots of UAW and other unions getting their pink slips..The resultant volume cutbacks will hurt Ford whereas their supply vendor base will not be able to survive on the lower volumes.
I spent 30 yrs on the supply side and the 2/3 of the companies I represented as a mfgr rep are gone..or sold to foreign concerns..Hot-forge operations & steel castings..SUV suspension parts and Army tank track shoes..
With the liberal takeover of the Auto business one can kiss anything they touch as a goner...The only thing left will be the UAW headquarters on Jefferson Ave in Detroit which will be busy handing out care-packages and providing tent-city accomodations for their members.. The only thing the UAW ever did was complain about having to do anything for their paycheck..It was an adversial relationship,and for the UAW workers driving foreign cars and complaining about the products they were assembling for the Big3, the day of reckoning is here..The merry-go-round has stopped and of course they blame management!!! Fat-city will go on a diet..
Just curious, how much of what you learn "reinventing" yourself is done on the job, or by taking classes at a college, or seminars??
Nobody forced Amricans to buy what they believe to be the better Japanese products...they were pushed there by American quality problems...
"The real fallout from the collapse of GM & Chrysler will be the supply side with lots of UAW and other unions getting their pink slips..The resultant volume cutbacks will hurt Ford whereas their supply vendor base will not be able to survive on the lower volumes"...and what is your point???...isn't this obvious, that the suppliers will suffer simply because Americans bought a superior competetive product and deserted the Big 3???...up until the mid-80s, we had no place to go, as the Big 3 gave us the only thing we could buy...the product quality simply kept going down the tubes and the UAW did not care because they believed they had us by the "short ones"...we found an alternative and now the fallout is finally sinking in...one does not need a degree in automotive engineering to figure this out...
Frankly, the person who was fed up with Big 3 poor quality, walked into a Honda Dealer and walked out happy, never to buy Big 3 again is, AN EXPERT!!!...he found something that makes him happy, better than waht he was forced to buy in previous years...that makes him an expert for him and only him...now, multiple him by millions of buyers who have left the Big 3 forever, and that is all the expert training they need...THEY LIKED THE HONDA BETTER...that makes them an eminent expert in what they want to buy, and that, plus lousy work habits and an arrogant attitude is what will sink GM, UAW and all the upstream suppliers...thet are simply the final consequence of making a lousy product that millions no longer want to buy...that is sufficient expert opinion...even now the UAW wants to strike SOMEWHERE, so they have not learned a thing since 1980s...talk about the failure to adapt, the UAW is a textbook case of dinosaur mentality leading UAW sheeple to their doom, and no one is smart enough to see it...what lemmings they must be to still follow UAW leadership like mindless idiots...yeah, sure, "highly skilled" "well trained" "intelligent and smart"...not those people, they are, simply, mentally handicapped people who have been well paid for little work for 50 years and now that gravy train is coming to a screeching halt...
You got that right. We shall be witness to Darwin's theory first hand.
We will see the strong survive, the adaptable adapt and survive, and the slow movers disappear into the wild.
Why do you call it amazing?
I think it is natural. People cannot see the big picture when they are part of the mess. Only somebody standing outside can see the mess on a holistic level.
All you need to have been is a customer to know that all 3 have eroded underneath the competition. The UAW no doubt played a HUGE role.
It seems the "Big Picture" has gotten progressively smaller and in 1.5 months, will be smaller still.
It should be real easy to keep up with all of the US brands soon.
Like I said, time for the customers to STRIKE!
Regards,
OW
" For Darwin, cooperation between individuals could be an adaptive strategy in many environments as individual reproductive success increases through the safety and support of the group." Primate Diaries
Sounds rather like a union. :shades:
"The United Auto Workers on Friday dismissed speculation on a deal with the Obama administration for Chrysler to undergo a "quick rinse" bankruptcy that could lead to a merger with Fiat.
Union spokesman Roger Kerson refused to comment publicly on reports of a deal that would lead Chrysler to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
But other UAW officials said the US Treasury, which is handling the negotiations, was waiting for a response from Chrysler's principal creditors on proposals that would eliminate more than half the company's 6.9 billion dollars in debt in exchange for equity in the reorganized company."
Union denies deal on Chrysler bankruptcy
Cootrbfb-Almost all of was OJT, company run/sponsored courses, or just plain self taught. I have not taken a formal college level course since I completed my Master's degree years ago. Took some seminars that were sponsored/run by companies like Agilent and other EDA firms.
Though it hasn't always been this way, my company now has a sizable catalog of courses taught in-house and through the local community college. In house courses are more specific and tool oriented, such as one on how to use Mentor Graphics or Unigraphics, Matlab, etc. Courses through the community college are mostly for PC and related topics. My company also has a per-employee training budget that alos anyone to spend ~20 hrs/year on training. New hires get a lot more training - several weeks spread over the course of a year.
GM/F/C are no longer the best or the fittest...I blame the UAW but others may not...either way, they are having trouble surviving in this market, and they have lost to the competition...if this was a nature preserve, GM/F/C would literally wither and die, but in the legal sense they can file Ch 11 and dump the dead weight and hopefully survive with a second chance that would NOT be granted in nature...
Their union model is one of inefficiency and their entire method of carmaking, once the envy of the world, is now part of the trash heap of history...the dinosaurs once ruled the world, then died off and we now use them up in our gas tanks...the dinosaurs are also part of the trash heap of history, as are UAW/GM/F/C...the world of automaking must change and evolve to survive, and they are unwilling to do so...
Let the UAW join the Eastern Airline mechanics in "sticking it to the man"...the fact that their jobs evaporate into thin air simply
shows...no, PROVES, that the intelligence level of the UAW is somewhere between moron and idiot, because no one with even average intelligence would march themselves to their own destruction and be proud that they are doing it...I think Darwin was referring to species, not individuals. Individuals tend to survive better by cooperating.
"It’s not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent but those most adaptive to change. – Charles Darwin" (link)
Unions (guilds) have been around for centuries. The UAW may be fading away. Or maybe they'll start cooperating better with the automakers and return to the glory days.
That might be a tad bit high. I think the total workforce is like 120 million people. Most of the 10+ million currently out of work is housing related. The auto industry people have a very inflated view of their importance in the US economy. The total with dealerships and auto parts cannot total 5% of the total workforce. The trickle down effect is already upon US as a result of the housing bubble crash. The auto industry and especially the UAW will have no real noticeable affect. It is just rhetoric from the UAW to try and keep the status quo.
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Amen brother Amen! The U.S. labor force is now 150 million. Total automotive related jobs and the so-called "ripple effect" will not mean beans to over 95% of the U.S.
UAW - RIP
A report recently on Fox, stated that the Postal Service is one such employer contemplating cutting deliveries to 5 days a week. This would save them millions each month in wages and fuel. According to the report, they can maintain full employment, even though it would/could result in a 16% reduction in wages to most workers. .
I wonder that even now, do they don't pay folks to sit around and do nothing, "IN CASE" someone doesn't show up for work?
Unions as well as all other employees are going to have to face facts.
GET REAL, OR GO BROKE.
Kip
I think that's great. OJT, nothing better!!! Verizon does it.
Unfortunately, we don't hear too much of OJT anymore. Most companies want a 22 yr old w/ 30 yrs experience to work for $1 below minimum wage, and offer no OJT. They may pay for college courses though.
OJT is not what it once was in the telco business. My first step by step school was 9 months 8 hours per day. My last school on the latest DMS100 version was a funky online program that I hated. The CD they sent kept locking up the computer. Causing restarts and frustration. Not to mention the wasted company time. I preferred class room teaching. Especially in nice locations in Florida.
The real kicker was the company budgeted money for OJT and our Union contract required the company to keep employees up to date on new equipment. Much of the budget was spent sending supervisors to the good schools. And they were to pass the information to the guys in the field.
Not something we would go on strike for. If the UAW had learned to pick their fights more carefully, they may still be a large vibrant Union. They should have also made an effort to stay within reason for wages. Paying a line person in a factory close to $30 per hour is just crazy. I would look for the non-union auto makers to cut wages when the UAW goes under.
So you admit their stuff was not what people wanted at the time. Yet:
The foreign brands were given access to our markets by lack of foresight in government (surprise that that happened, isn't it) and by lack of adaptation by the Big Three.
So in your book "oversight" would be forcing ALL your citizens to buy inferior and unwanted product (at least as perceived by those who bought the imports) to protect interest of small minority of people who were too lazy, too arrogant or too stupid to notice peoplw wanted something different? That is not "oversight" in my book - that is a criminal racket. I'm glad the government of this country decided that interest of 98% of people is more important than the remaining 2%. At least in this case, which we are discussing now. I define oversight as allowing as many of your citizens as possible, not just "chosen few" to enjoy the best products and lifestyle they possibly can. If that means that a few fat cats of your own kind have to starve and die, so be it. Yes, yes - AIG, Dallasdude already told that many times. We are not discussing AIG now, so let's not start again.
All professional group/special interest "defenders" (not only labor unions, trade groups, lobbying organizations, etc.) have been really successful in convincing people that they "belong" to some kind of group, which needs special treatment/potection - of course at expense of the rest. Then they turn around and tell the rest of us, that it's all for our own good that we bear that cost of that privilidge and protectio. What's worst, people don't realize that those groups create classic "prisoner's dilemma" where at the end everybody loses because at the end everybody gets some of that special protection, which ultimately inflates the cost of doing any business.
Moreover, people are trained (in really Pavlovian sense) to think about themselves in terms of jobs/professions/businesses they do, rather than what they do in the entire rest of their life. I am and will be engineer for about 1/6th of my life - for the rest I am a consumer.
Now, which is better: be "protected" 1/6th of that life by labor contracts, "fair" employment laws and all that socialistic crap, or be protected for the 5/6th of the life by strong competition laws, anti-truts, free market, ensuring that the providers of any or service product I buy remain on their toes, almost scared they may lose it to the guy next door or across the ocean. This also means I have to be scared, too - for this 1/6th of my life, but that's the price I'm willing to pay so the rest I live having choices and knowing that everybody else really appreciates whatever money I have to bring.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Look at the roots of the UAW. Reuther was as close to a card carrying Communist as anyone in this country. To make him anything else is trying to revise history. He spent time in the Soviet Union and shaped the UAW to be like their Unions.
Reuther was born in Wheeling, West Virginia, the son of a socialist brewery worker who had emigrated from Germany. In his entire career he was close to his brothers and co-workers Victor Reuther and Roy Reuther. Reuther joined the Ford Motor Company but was laid off as the Great Depression worsened. He and his brothers went to Europe and then worked 1933-35 in an auto plant at Gorky in the Soviet Union.
What Reuther and the UAW would like are the entitlements of Socialism without the political control. When in fact they are inseparable. When you control the companies you take their freedom. That in turn takes everyone's freedom. Even those that seem to be in control.
Read the post again: "Lack of adaptation by the Big Three..." "Lack of foresight in government..."
I'm not sure where the rest of your post is relevant to mine. Mine was that the UAW is partly at fault along with many others who didn't foresee what people like the Chinese have; they require GM to be buddied up with a Chinese company to build cars there. Perhaps the US should have done thus.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car
1) Is it any wonder that: a) "Detroit automakers declined to discuss the programs in detail or say exactly how much they are spending," and b) the Big Three asked for a bailout after spending more than $4 billion on an outdated "jobs bank" program over the last four years?
2) If the Big Three hadn't wasted an estimated $4 billion from 2005-2008 paying idled "workers" not to "work," what could they have done with that money? Well, they could have produced about 200,000 cars at an average cost of $20,000 or built 8 new factories at an average cost of $550 million.
3) Speculation: Without the burden of the jobs bank, and the $4.2 billion estimated cost of the jobs bank over the last four years, the Big 3 wouldn't be begging for a handout today. Even if the hourly wages of the Big Three are now comparable to wages at Toyota and Honda, and even if the productivity gap has narrowed, the cost of the job banks to Big Three is probably one of the biggest factors contributing to their competitive disadvantage and one of the biggest reasons they are facing bankruptcy today.
If the UAW had agreed five years ago to end the jobs bank, the Big Three wouldn't be in so much trouble today, and wouldn't have gone to taxpayers begging for a handout.
Funny how both the financial industry and the auto industry went begging after repeated failure to understand their respective markets and businesses and in the end the taxpayers foot the bill.
From now on, there is no right or wrong just re-balancing. The market will adjust to the best product manufacturers be they in autos or financial instruments.
The UAW will morph into a small auto financial system...much like a credit union. They will actually make money moving forward as their model changes as well.
Regards,
OW
But, as long as the species DOES survive, there will always be those individuals, esp in [non-permissible content removed] sapien, who rise to the top and survive "better"...the UAW was one such animal, doing better than most for the lack of skills they had...but, again, they did not relaize how good they had it, so they killed the golden goose that fed them...now, they will die, but the species will live on...
I read today, as I predicted, that GM will dump Pontiac, as it only has a few worthwhile models, nothing to build a brand name on...they may sell it, but who would buy it???...they will salvage the G series and absorb it into Chevrolet...as I said...Chevy, Caddy and a Truck brand, call it Chevy or GMC...the rest is gone...
Quoted from circlew:
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
rocky, if GM cannot make money making over 9 million vehicles, something is wrong with their cost structure...can you spell U-A-W???
I assume by now the reality of what the rest of the country (non-UAW) has known for decades is finally sinking through...they are not wroth what they have been paid for years...did they get thru the free market of capitalism???...yes...but that same free market has come back to bite them because they priced themselves out of the market...the market giveth and the market taketh away...now they will wither away and the Big 3 will slash their cost structure and start acting like a normal company...too bad they waited 20-plus years to do it (back in 1983 or 1984, after GM's first losing year since, like 1925, Roger Smith could have taken a long strike and broken the UAW...like a fool he capitulated in about six weeks to their demands...he could have been a hero to the nation by breaking the UAW but he gave in...so it took another 20-plus years but it just may happen, and this nation will certainly be better for it)...