Why? Are you saying that the U.S. government should not have allowed Toyota & Honda to build factories here unless they first "buddied up" with GM & Chrysler? You'd expect this sort of meddling in business from the Chinese government. They're Communists, after all, & Communists believe that the Party should call the shots. So if you're a Communist, this makes sense.
But if you believe in free markets & private enterprise, the idea that government should be allowed to do this ought to scare you. Do you think that the bureaucrats have some kind of hidden talent for picking winners & losers? I certainly don't.
From where I sit, the market is working just as it should. GM & Chrysler failed to reduce legacy costs by wresting concessions from the UAW when times were good & now they're on the verge of bankruptcy. The D2 aren't innocent victims of circumstances beyond their control; they made bad business decisions & now they'll pay the price. That's fine with me. That's how the world is supposed to work.
>You'd expect this sort of meddling in business from the Chinese government.
I think you'd better check what is happening today in USA.
>GM & Chrysler failed to reduce legacy costs by wresting concessions from the UAW
Was Ford paying UAW below the wage rate at GM/C? That's what the post suggests. Ford has a role in here too.
All three were played the same way by UAW with strikes against the one making the most money at the time while the other two continued to produce and sell cars.
General Motors (GM) disclosed in an SEC filing Friday afternoon that the GM Common Stock Fund, an option in the automaker’s employee savings plans that allowed workers to choose to invest some of their retirement money in the company’s stock, has sold all of its GM shares, and now holds only short-term fixed income investments and money market instruments.
GM explained in the filing that the manager of the fund, State Street Bank and Trust, under certain circumstances is specifically authorized to do exactly what it did: :
* If “there is a serious question concerning General Motors short-term viability as a going concern without resorting to bankruptcy proceedings.” * Or if “there is no possibility in the short-term of recouping any substantial proceeds from the sale of stock in bankruptcy proceedings.”
In the filing, GM said that “State Street made the determination that this standard had been met due to the economic climate and the circumstances surrounding GM’s business.”
GM said the fund began selling the stock on March 31, and completed the sales today. The fund is going to be liquidated, and will no longer be offered as an option on GM retirement plans.
I think you'd better check what is happening today in USA.
I don't have to like it. Let the market work. Most of us will be better off.
Was Ford paying UAW below the wage rate at GM/C? That's what the post suggests. Ford has a role in here too.
Sure it does, but Ford made one brilliant business decision that bought it some breathing space. Back in 2006, before the credit markets went haywire, Ford's then-new CEO, Alan Mulally, called in the banks & borrowed every nickel he could on favorable terms. As a result, Ford is much better capitalized today & stands a decent chance of solving its legacy cost problems & bringing new products to market before its money runs out.
Ford isn't out of the woods yet, but it will almost certainly outlast at least one of its rivals & pick up additional market share. That's the market at work - rewarding good decisions.
All three were played the same way by UAW with strikes against the one making the most money at the time while the other two continued to produce and sell cars.
That gambit worked as well as it did for as long as it did because the D3 worried more about losing sales to one another than they did about outside - foreign - rivals. Convinced that imports would never amount to much in this market, the D3 purchased labor peace by giving the UAW whatever it wanted & then passing on the cost to us. They figured that we'd pay it without protesting. In other words, they behaved like a regulated utility with a monopoly on their customer base. Competition? What competition? People have to buy from us, they figured. Where else can they go? They'll pay whatever we charge.
That strategy worked until we, the consumers, decided that we didn't have to put up with it. We could take our business elsewhere, & we did. The D3's market share dropped but their labor costs didn't. As we see now, they were too stupid & short-sighted to deal with that until it was too late.
Let 'em die. I'd like to see Ford get through this, but if it doesn't, that's OK.
>because the D3 worried more about losing sales to one another than they did about outside - foreign - rivals.
Yup. That's right. They felt initially the demand for smaller cars would go away. They felt they could build reduced size versions of body on frame vehicles with engines shrunk a little without designing from scratch with the then necessary new factories. Part of avoiding new factories would have to do with UAW problems and agreements.
I can't see that the UAW did anything to help fend off the attack.
>purchased labor peace by giving the UAW whatever it wanted & then passing on the cost
Yup. The problem is doing the right thing in hindsight is much easier to effect than knowing what to do at the time. Some of us should have been in charge of GM/C/Ford through the 80s and we could have set them right in real time rather than in retrospect.
Allowing a split pay scale for UAW rather than demanding all take a lesser pay reduction and benefits reduction was a major mistake.
" I guess I'd make a pretty bad Communist."...I certainly can agree with that...
That is what Ch 11 is for...keep the company running but shed debt and contract obligations...it is the only way for them to survive...GM has to shrink from its current size, if they cannot make money at 9 million vehicles (2007) then their cost structure is too high...assuming (yes, I know what happens when you assume) that they pay similar rates for steel, plastic, dashboards, wheels, tires etc, and if they have wrung out all the costs on those they can, the next variable is labor and its associated costs...
Dump the UAW contract and its entire wage structure, start over with realistic wages and no union...have them do what everybody else in this country does, part part of their own health insurance premiums (25-50%) and pay ALL of the additional premium for spouse and children (THAT will place cost controls like nothing else you have ever seen, when they pay for their own from their pocket)...cease and desist on pensions and offer straight 401K with matching (if affordable)...dump retireee benefits simply because you cannot get blood from a stone, and GM has no money...
For all those who keep bleating and whing about "but they signed a contract", just what do you think Ch 11 is for???...legalized breach of contract, plain and simple...they said they would, they cannot afford to do so, so they file Ch 11 and void the obligation...voila'...
It is no different than my Ch 7 clients...they signed a contract with Visa that they would pay...they suffered a severe income drop (lost their job, spouse lost job, less hours, illness, whatever) and now they cannot pay the Visa payments that they incurred when the income was there...so, they file Ch 7, wipe out the debt, and get the "fresh start"...all it boils down to is legalized (gov't sponsored) breach of contract w/o monetary penalties...
Oh, future credit will be difficult to obtain, but the crushing debt that is killing you now is wiped out...my clients are the same as GM except that GM is "slightly" bigger and their debts are simply a "few" billion more... ...but it is the same thing...
Just like my client does not worry about how Visa will make up the lost income, GM will not concern itself with retiree obligations and health insurance for workers...after all the UAW whining, the simple fact is this: THE MONEY TO PAY IT IS NOT THERE...REPEAT...THE MONEY TO PAY IT IS NOT THERE...
Yes, I have compassion for those who had something and may now lose it (retirees and their benefits)...but compassion changes nothing...no money, no benefits...
As stated earlier...they had virtually no skills whatsoever, very little education and/or literacy, and they were the highest paid unskilled workers...that was a gravy train that had to come to an end, someday...
Someday is here...
"D3 purchased labor peace by giving the UAW whatever it wanted & then passing on the cost to us. They figured that we'd pay it without protesting. In other words, they behaved like a regulated utility with a monopoly on their customer base. Competition? What competition? People have to buy from us, they figured. Where else can they go? They'll pay whatever we charge.
That strategy worked until we, the consumers, decided that we didn't have to put up with it. We could take our business elsewhere, & we did. The D3's market share dropped but their labor costs didn't."
Well put...what I have said all along...for years, no decades, they treated us, the buyers, like crap by selling us crap with the arrogant attitude that permeates the unskilled UAW...we went elsewhere, but the Big 3 were not smart enough 20 years, or even 10 years ago, to dump the UAW, or at least half of them, and change the method of manufacturing to put into place the newer, efficient methods of the imports...
To the UAW, the Big 3 existed simple to featherbed every single job they could...any attempt at manufacturing efficiency was met with a UAW strike...
Now WE have gone on strike by buying the competition...we, at some point in the future, will have done what the mgmt of the Big 3 could never do, stand up to the UAW...we did it by simply making them unnecessary in the numbers that they are...they will dump probably about half of them, leaving an emeciated, starving shadow of its former self, with no power and nobody left to care...
While short term pain will exist, in the long run we will win, and in the longer run, America will win...better manufacturing methods, better made cars, no more strikes (no more UAW) and people making cars who will NOT spend every waking moment trying to "get back at the Man", and, instead, will be happy to work and happy people make a better product...too many posters have documented sabotage and work slowdowns, just because the workers could get away with it...
Those days will soon be history, and the nation will breathe better when they are gone...
Sorry for the length of this...when the last UAW member leaves Michigan, please turn out the lights...mail some batteries to rocky in Grand Rapids so his flashlight will stay lit until he reaches the Michigan border... :P
If GM assembly is a $15 an hour job? If saving for the future is putting away a piece of $15 an hour in order to get a 401k match? If retiree benefits disappear?
What will salary jobs pay? My experience is that engineering at the D3 required a design that used cheaper materials to counter the high assembly costs.
Will the D3 cars take a jump in quality due to the change in cost structure and new profitability?
How will the transplants deal with a level playing field?
"The automaker on Friday announced a tentative deal with the Canadian Auto Workers union for concessions, shifting the focus now to talks with the UAW, which represents the automaker's U.S. hourly workers.
Central to any negotiation is the fate of a healthcare trust for union retirees, a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA, that was created as the centerpiece of Chrysler's UAW contract in 2007."
realize that they can't have those great healthcare-for-life and pension bene's anymore. Humm....how else can someone have some money for retirement?
Ever heard of saving money? They're gonna have to pay half their medical insurance. I know, we don't like the 'S' word in America, but if ever there were a Company that needed to drop overhead, and UAW adds legacy costs like no other Union that I can think of in history, it would be GM.
BTW- where's dallasdude, anyway? Working hard at his UAW defense job? He and 62vette are pulling a Dennis Rodman and staying away from everything NBA.
"I got a bit lost in your long missive Bob. Were you talking about UAW workers or lawyers?"...I DID apologize for the long post...I did not realize it had gone that long...but a fair amount of it was simply the copy of quotes from someone who said something better than I did...
As far as getting rid of lawyers, always remember the lawyer's creed, which I am making up as I go, but will hopefully be useful: Everyone hates us until THEIR rights have been violated, and then, suddenly, instantly, they need a lawyer...they rarely want to pay them, but they want a lawyer...
Also remember, all lawyers are crooks, because they bend the law as they see fit...until YOUR rights have been violated, and then we want to shrewest, most crooked lawyer we can find...again, they rarely want to pay them, but they want a lawyer...
I think we are a necessary evil...you know, like taxes and the UAW...oh, wait, we are about to destroy the UAW...but hopefully the lawyers will still be around...who else can file GM's bankruptcy, anyway???... :P :shades:
dave: "Will the D3 cars take a jump in quality due to the change in cost structure and new profitability?
How will the transplants deal with a level playing field?"
The transplants will simply do what they have been doing for years...kaizen...Japanese for "constant, incremental improvement"...it really would be a pleasure to see Honda and Toy actually fear the quality that a new GM or Ford could make...
The D3 would HAVE to improve quality with a better cost structure, or they literally have no reason to exist anymore...with no UAW to deal with, or legacy costs, or gold plated health insurance, their cost structure MUST go down, leaving money on the table for better materials inside the car...
But, one more thing must change, and it may be the most important one of all...work rules...like it or not, Honda/Toy method of manufacturing is the efficient method of the future, requiring only 1/3 the number of employees to make an equivalent number of cars from GM...so, despite killing the UAW, if they continue to use last century's manufacturing methods, GM will still need 6000 workers to make as many cars in a plant that Honda only needs 2000...that is an inherent labor cost differential regardless of union or not...paying 3 times the workers means that the model is not efficient...workers must be cross trained so they are more versatile...frankly, there probably is not ANY company in America that does not try to use efficient methods to reduce labor costs, and the only one from the dark ages is the auto trade...again, the gravy train for that is over...
D3 must dump all UAW simply because they will stick to the old methods and refuse to be retrained or they will, stupidly, strike...remember, UAW members are the most mindless sheeple one can find, and they live up to that charge every day...
They need all new workers with no rotten work habits, to be trained in modern methods of automaking...so, D3 management must also change its entire thought process to the better methods out there...
Obama promised change...UAW and D3 never dreamed just how much change they will experience, but their entire method of existence is now in question...GM has new management, now all they need is a new workforce, as the old UAW one has bad habits so deeply ingrained, they are part of their DNA...they need to go...NOW...
>But if you believe in free markets & private enterprise, the idea that government should be allowed to do this ought to scare you. Do you think that the bureaucrats have some kind of hidden talent for picking winners & losers?
Then it is liquidation time for GM and Delphi, who is hanging on by a thread to GM. At least their US operations. I suspect Delphi makes money with their over seas operations. Same as GM. It is not fair to the stockholders that money made in China should subsidize the US operations, just to keep a few thousand UAW workers making the big bucks.
Obama is not socialist leaning. He is the same free-market pseudo-capitalist suit people like you worship. A real socialist looks out for the best interest of his/hers country not for the select few at the top. :sick:
-Rocky
P.S.The UAW workers aren't the problem with GM. It is the double standard of Wall Street and unfair trade laws that put every american business at a disadvantage. Someday you will realize that as right now your are just to blind to recognize what is happening around you. Perhaps turn the Rush knob to off and look at the facts.
Thanks....I wished Marsha7 could see that. His hate for unions will not allow him to see who provides the most jobs for americans and that is the Big 3. He is getting what he wanted and that is the demise of american manufacturing. With each good paying job gone will only accelerate that race to the bottom. :sick:
-Rocky
P.S. When are you going to add some pics to your carspace. I want you to prove to me that you buy american iron because I am having a difficult time believing you do!!!! :P Check out my Carspace again Marsha7
what makes anyone think that the GM BK judge will?
It doesn't really matter. If the judge doesn't tear up the contracts then GM will be broken up and sold to other companies. No company is going to emerge from bankruptcy if it can't generate a profit. Unless GM has some alternative magic bullet that doesn't void much of the UAW contracts. If they have such a bullet they haven't felt the need to use it yet. One thing they could do is just outsource manufacturing to other countries. With no US manufacturing, no need to worry about UAW costs for current staff, but retired employees would still drag down finances.
If they screwed over millions of americans like that by outsourcing all the jobs to foreign countries then I ask you this who is going to buy there cars??? I sure in the hell won't nor would most people I know. It would be suicide. I would buy a Ford or something and would be as Anti-GM as they come. :mad:
How can you be so "buy american" in one breath and yet preach discusting words with the next??? The UAW workers don't make the big bucks anymore. They make less than Toyota workers now. Delphi's average UAW worker is making less than $16 bucks and hour. They really can't afford to buy a new car and a lot of them unless there spouse has a really good job are buying pre-owned. I drive by the parking lot. It's sad when the workers can't afford to buy what they make anymore. This country is going down the toilet and somehow you believe what you read and see on everything negative regarding the UAW workers. :confuse: I guess that will never change and you will believe what you want thus their is no use for me debating this issue anymore. If Rush says it is so then it must be true. I personally hope you live long enough to see the world you wanted so badly created. What you see now is only the beginning of your serf n' elite society. I don't know how old Marsha7 is but I hope he has to suffer also. I don't want to be the lone ranger. your children might be living high on the hawg now with good jobs and to be quite honest I'm happy they are. I however feel most of the population will someday feel the ill affects of global capitalism. I believe WW3 will be upon us sooner than later and that isn't something you capitalist can't blame on the UAW workers because we will say "told you so" I hope you and Marsha7 are target practicing at your local gun clubs because I and the UAW workers aren't going to be the only ones to shed blood when your Chinese Masters want to take over our land physically. :mad: They will soon want to enjoy those sandy beaches on the left coast since they will say they own it.
It appears it is about official....I didn't believe it would survive even with the rumors of it becoming a niche brand. I personally would of liked to have seen the G6 survive as a Chevy but perhaps some version of it might make it's appearance at a later date??? I guess they could make a Malibu coupe or something??? :confuse: I guess there goes a lot of UAW jobs. :sick:
If they screwed over millions of americans like that by outsourcing all the jobs to foreign countries then I ask you this who is going to buy there cars???
That would definitely be a big risk. But really, if you ran the New GM and your job was to make the company profitable, what would you do? I suspect you'd say kill all of the foreign competition through government action.
But given that is not very likely, you are running the new GM and you have tough choices. Presumably the New GM already is a lot smaller, has many fewer divisions, and has dumped a large number of uncompetitive vehicles. If you want to compete with other makes you need to be have desirable products but still be profitable. If the full healthcare costs are still on the books for the retirees, I don't know how the bankruptcy court is going to say GM is viable enough to emerge.
And I agree that if you are a retired worker it would suck big time. Even if I don't agree with the size of their retirement benefits, it's unfair not to get benefits that they counted on and planned for.
On a similar note, a family member's wife works as a California unionized school teacher in very large district. She is two years from retirement after over 30years of service. Her RETIREMENT BENEFITS are a pension of $6K/month, with full health care for herself and her husband, for the rest of their lives. No wonder we are taxed to death in this state. Watch California keep raising taxes, and watch the businesses and affluent individuals leave. I am not planning on retiring in this state. It is like GM and the UAW, but on a larger level. And like the UAW, the state unions are choking our finances.
That would definitely be a big risk. But really, if you ran the New GM and your job was to make the company profitable, what would you do? I suspect you'd say kill all of the foreign competition through government action.
No I wouldn't!!! Again for the millionth time I think competition on a level playing field is good for GM and the consumer.
But given that is not very likely, you are running the new GM and you have tough choices. Presumably the New GM already is a lot smaller, has many fewer divisions, and has dumped a large number of uncompetitive vehicles. If you want to compete with other makes you need to be have desirable products but still be profitable. If the full healthcare costs are still on the books for the retirees, I don't know how the bankruptcy court is going to say GM is viable enough to emerge.
Well now is this presidents chance to unveil his national healthcare plan. It would help GM cut costs and stay even more competitive. However that alone isn't going to save them. There needs to be tariffs slapped on the hoods of each import to level out the playing field. This would make it costly to use cheap foreign labor or manipulate your currency and those jobs would have to come back here and compete on a level playing field. I also would make sure EFCA passes to unionize the transplants.
And I agree that if you are a retired worker it would suck big time. Even if I don't agree with the size of their retirement benefits, it's unfair not to get benefits that they counted on and planned for.
Yep!!! The pension appears to be pretty secure but the healthcare is a different story. The best approach for the UAW is to pressure Obama to pass National Healthcare and in return to get GM to increase there pension plan so they can buy supplemental health insurance which would save GM billions and the retirees and active wouldn't lose any benefit coverage. That is how I personally would solve that issue.
On a similar note, a family member's wife works as a California unionized school teacher in very large district. She is two years from retirement after over 30years of service. Her RETIREMENT BENEFITS are a pension of $6K/month, with full health care for herself and her husband, for the rest of their lives.
Well that is more than double what my dad gets. Dad is getting $2900 a month thus taking a little less per month so my step-mom can collect in case he were to die. However he doesn't live in the costly state of California though either. $6K is chump change in Cali. That will get you what a modest house in the projects of Long Beach, Watts, Compton??? :P
No wonder we are taxed to death in this state. Watch California keep raising taxes, and watch the businesses and affluent individuals leave. I am not planning on retiring in this state. It is like GM and the UAW, but on a larger level. And like the UAW, the state unions are choking our finances.
Seriously a home in California in the poor areas will run you $350K from what I could see by watching those HGTV shows like flip that house, etc. I'm sure it's a cool million or so where Gary aka gagrice lives in San Diego. I was born in Long Beach but I don't know what is so special about living there??? It is cheaper and warmer in Florida. I guess since I haven't been there since I was a baby I don't know what I'm missing, eh??? :P I'll take Michigan, and our 4 seasons any day. The only good thing about California, is six-foot tall blond bombshells are as common as the California sunshine from what I hear. :P However we have our fair share of tall smokin' hot women here in Western Michigan and one of em' happens to be my best friend. :shades:
My guessing the money this country has lived off of in taxing the Auto workers to death is now defunked and so are the Auto workers ? Then you wake from your dream a war starts and you have no way of building anything not after the last manufacturing job is done. Who in hell is now paying for your health and care now God bless America
Tell me just how big of a wage cut did the old timers take? The UAW is playing games with the new hires. That should be plain to you. A real Union does not cut the wages of just the lower guys on the seniority list. It is across the board. Same goes for Retirees. When the AK Teamsters eliminated Health Care for the retirees it included those already retired as well as the next generation of retirees. That is fair and equal. Just take a long hard look at the UAW contracts and tell me they treat all the workers in a given job equally. That is what a REAL Union does.
What you see now is only the beginning of your serf n' elite society.
That is what I see with the UAW. The older workers making the big bucks with golden parachutes and the new hires taking the hit. You should be ashamed of that kind of treatment. And in this case I do not believe Reuther would have gone along with the contract. All for one, and One for all is not part of a two tier wage package.
your children might be living high on the hawg now with good jobs
Hardly. They get by with a little help from the Dad, me. My daughter is doing better in Indiana than they did here in CA. They should be closing on a home soon. They would NEVER have been able to buy a home in CA. My daughter and husband together do not make the base pay that a Delphi fork lift operator makes. Which is somewhere in the $65k to $80k+ per year without OT. Unless Oscar was lying on his bankruptcy case.
I think competition on a level playing field is good for GM and the consumer.
A level playing field would mean the UAW workers should be making the average for manufacturing throughout the USA. That is not the case. There are factories everywhere with people making $10 per hour and sometimes less. You should think about the playing field being level in the USA before you try leveling it across the globe. My ex brother in law slung hides in a packing plant until he went on SS. You ever go into a beef packing plant? You think that any job in the auto industry is any messier than scraping cow hides? Well he was always paid just above minimum wage in Modesto California. No incentive to better himself. Sound like folks you know in the UAW. The difference is in the UAW you make as much as many with expensive degrees. How fair and level is that playing field? I don't think you know what fair is.
$6K is chump change in Cali. That will get you what a modest house in the projects of Long Beach, Watts, Compton?
You really are out of touch with reality. I wish I was getting $6k per month pension. Mine after 37 years in the Teamsters is about 2/3rds that with NO HEALTH CARE. And I live quite comfortably in a very nice area of CA. I know I could live like a king in Michigan on $6K per month. That is $72k per year. Not a lot of people make that much here in CA. Maybe 5% of the workforce. Mostly in government. Which generates NO income other than taxes from the lower paid masses.
They are getting close to being complete with Medical Mile which will give us the finest hospitals in the country.
So why aren't you taking courses to get one of those great jobs? I think ILUV has tried to head you in that direction. I am sure you could get Federal aid of some sort to retrain yourself.
".....A level playing field would mean the UAW workers should be making the average for manufacturing throughout the USA. That is not the case. There are factories everywhere with people making $10 per hour and sometimes less."
Would the same go for the transplants? How do you think they would react to having their pay slashed to $10-12/hr?
Would the same go for the transplants? How do you think they would react to having their pay slashed to $10-12/hr?
If the dust ever settles from this whole business, I would expect cuts. Not that drastic. I think if the UAW had cut all the workers to about $20 per hour and got rid of the retiree gold plated health care, we would not be looking at GM & C BK. And the bottom line is GM will never be able to replenish the Pension fund. So it will be in default with the PBGC at the end of this year. The UAW and D3 were running a Ponzi scheme just like Madoff and this housing/banking bubble exposed them both. The difference is the UAW/D3 leaders and management are still on the loose instead of in jail.
>Delphi's average UAW worker is making less than $16 bucks and hour.
I don't want to know the average worker's salary. I want to know the top salaries and the lowest and the distribution between those. I like histograms or box-and-whisker plots of those things.
Same for the UAW at GM. I want to know what the top, older guys are still making. I don't want to hear about the average. The average can be lowered by the poor guys who got hired in at the lower new salary that still haven't been bumped out. I have nothing against the older UAW workers making a good salary, but I don't think they need an outrageous salary while the new hires were eating the dust on starvation salaries and then use the average to fool the numbers. The older, seniority UAW workers should have taken definite cuts a decade ago.
I always believe figures lie if not analyzed properly.
I already posted a story that the whole sequence is more than just UAW and high salaries. Indeed that includes management. All managements make mistakes.
But when it was time to adjust the last couple of decades the UAW kept on going up. Many people don't want to accept the government could have helped with this situation through the decades. Guvment has some responsibility to the citizens.
The Czar appointed by the Govt to oversee the Auto guys in the motorcity sole purpose is to make sure the UAW doesn't get the screwed in the reorganization process..The govt has not a clue on product lines except it has to be small, dangerous, and something with a short cruising range..Future long distance travel is a no-no, especially by car..
The future UAW will be a community organizing group which will make it viable to receive govt funds, your tax dollars, and joining the well-known Acorn plus the Americorps which between them have been awarded $ 10,000,000,000 to carry out protests and neighborhood projects including Election Fraud..
Someone mentioned high pay for teachers in retirement plus full health benefits and wondering where the money is coming from?? Remember AIG and the $100,000,000,000 of our tax dollars--yep they hold the majority of the NEA pensions...
Don't worry the UAW will end up sucking up our tax $$$$s. It's the liberal payback time..
Maybe some of you think the Obama "Shovel Ready Projects" will rescue the UAW folks, no back-breaking work for the loyalists..It's vacation time with pay, thanks to our new folks in DC.. Lots of beer drinking time with almost full pay, isn't Captialism Great!!!!
Old Henry Ford had the right idea about unionism, he fought it to the end, and of course he lost, but it wasn't a cakewalk for the workers..Any laid off UAW workers will draw unemployment benefits until at least the next election 2010...
If you are thinking about buying a foreign car assembled in the USA, better get one before the UAW organizes the bunch, for the quality will hit the bricks..I am sure that the current govt bunch have laid the groundwork for unionizing the Asians..w/o Card-check laws..
> a foreign car assembled in the USA, better get one before the UAW organizes the bunch, for the quality will hit the bricks
That's not a correct statement to assume that UAW in a plant would cause poor product. The BIG THREE gave the workers the parts to put together and oversaw the assembly.
Many people don't want to accept the government could have helped with this situation through the decades. Guvment has some responsibility to the citizens.
Yeah, government is responsible for national defense, the court system & a few other things, none of which include "helping" (whatever that means) the American auto industry.
Remember, government can't do anything without our tax dollars. Why should I open my wallet to pay for government "help" to the D2 & the UAW? What's in it for me? If both GM & Chrysler disappear tomorrow, there will still be plenty of cars made by other companies in the showrooms when I'm ready to buy.
Go ahead & "help" the D2 & the UAW if you want to, but spend your own money. Socialism doesn't work, & I don't want to pay for it.
If you are thinking about buying a foreign car assembled in the USA, better get one before the UAW organizes the bunch, for the quality will hit the bricks.
" I also would make sure EFCA passes to unionize the transplants."...if any import employee is watching, they will see what will happen to them if they unionize, and that will be job loss...it will take awhile, but it will happen...
Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble, but I do get it about the ripple effect...but that is simply a symptom of what is to come, which I still blame on poor UAW work quality and featherbedding rules...you refuse to accept that the UAW has been the CAUSE of the downfall of the Big 3, so you are looking at the effects of what is happening, but you are in absolute denial about the cause...the UAW created a house of cards...a house of cards that stood for almost 50 years, because the wind was not strong enough to blow it down (meaning that they were able to pass off car price increases for years)...now the "quality chickens" have come home to roost and it isn't pretty...it took until now for the wind to get strong to blow over the house of cards...the wind is consumers going on strike for the UAW products...like it or not, whether bad design or rotten union (I pick the union) your products either do not sell, or your workers are reciving compensation that cannot be paid any longer, which they were never worth to start with...remember, the purpose of Bankruptcy is to break contracts and remove debt...
You mentioned that people making cars cannot afford to buy their own product...well, no wonder!!!...when I saw that $40,000 Chevrolet outside BJ's warehouse (like a Sams Club) I almost fell over...GM's base brand, designed for those just starting out (Sloan's model) was $40,000???...that means it goes up from there with other GM brands...and you wonder why people cannot afford to buy one???...you think I am going to spend $40K of my hard earned money on a CAR, especially a UAW-built car???...are you insane???...even if I don't buy cars for their resale value, that $40K Chevy would be worth under $20K in about 6 months...never mind the others, I know I can't afford that car, and that is a base Chevy...
As stated earlier, it isn't that wages have not kept up, it is that cars (and houses) grew in cost far in excess of the rate everything else grew...if you think a $40K Chevy is normal, then YOU need your head examined, esp when it is less than half that in a year...a 2008 STS was on sale here for $29,900, only 1 year old...probably over $55K new...if they were selling (asking price, would take less I am sure) it for $29,900, they offered the seller on his trade-in under $25K...so here we are in the middle of the 2009 model year, and a one year old Caddy was traded in for less than half of its pruchase price when new...rocky, the car simply costs too much, and UAW labor is the blame for that...Chevy at $40K new, Caddy at $55K new, under $30K one year later...they depreciate because they were NEVER worth it from the start...it sn't that people don't make enough money, it is that the cars are overpriced at $40-50,000...
Just because something has a price does NOT make it worth it, and a rapid-depreciating car like anything built by the UAW was never worth it to start...THAT is the problem...
BTW, that goes for housing, too...there is no house that was worth $100K in 2005, then 175K in 2006, and then 250K in 2007...that market was inflated by lying appraisers, who are probably the ones who really should be sitting in jail, because they are the ones that banks look to for valid appraisals...what you see in the housing market is NOT a depression, but a beginning of a return to normal and proper values...the house that was $300K in 2007 was only worth $175K anyway, but the frenzy and madness of crowds send it skyrocketing...it is simply coming back to ground level...
No, rocky, there simply is NO Chevrolet worth a sticker of $40K, and when you wake up and figure this out, you will have solved the problem of the Big 3...your beloved UAW...plain and simple...T This entire midwest depression has been caused by overpaying unskilled UAW people over the years at a rate that was sustainable until NOW, and now the money is gone...just like madoff's pryramid has crumbled, so must the entire pay structure of the UAW...they were never worth it, they aren't worth it, and they can no longer be paid anything like the past, because, like it or not, the market has spoken and they ain't buying no more...Obama promised change, and you got what you voted for...
That would only put all the employees at all the Toyota and Honda plants out of work. So many people think that any profit made by Toyota and Honda goes back to Japan. Sure some of it does but most goes to the share holders which are from all over the world, same as the big 3. What counts is the money that is put back into the factories and by building new ones in North America to employ the workers to make a living here.
The UAW AND CAW have screwed themselves out of jobs by being so greedy with their demands over the years along with the big 3 building bad quality vehicles. Yes their vehicles have been better in the last couple years, but it's too dam late. People have shown that they won't buy them and everyone is crying buy American, we are losing our jobs. The Japanese use a lot of the same suppliers as the big 3, but their quality demands are higher and their parts cost a little more in some cases to build.
I can not see how anyone can think that an employee that works for the UAW OR CAW is more special then someone that does the same job as a person that is not in a union. There are more people losing thousands of dollars from their pensions every week then there are UAW and CAW workers in North America and I don't see anyone crying for them. Most of them worked for a heck of a lot less over the years and harder to have part of their pension taken away from them.
There are more people losing thousands of dollars from their pensions every week then there are UAW and CAW workers in North America and I don't see anyone crying for them. Most of them worked for a heck of a lot less over the years and harder to have part of their pension taken away from them.
That is exactly correct. Trying to get that message through the thick heads of those that worship the UAW, is not easy. They somehow feel UAW workers are superior to the millions of working people in this country that were not born into their Union. Millions of US citizens work just as hard or harder than the UAW workers, and make a heck of a lot less. And when it is time to retire only have SS or a small pension.
What has Obama done or said about helping those that live on 401K investments? It seems the only worry is protecting the $millions given by unions to campaign funds.
junkyardog. The sales levels coming in had to stay at a high level of SUV's, pick-em-up's and whatever sedan's GM could cheaply produce every month, or GM wouldn't be able to pay their over-paid execs and standard everyday UAW workers.
...and in return to get GM to increase there pension plan so they can buy supplemental health insurance which would save GM billions and the retirees and active wouldn't lose any benefit coverage. That is how I personally would solve that issue.
Oh, I see, you and the UAW will just strong-arm, or "get" as you say, GM to "increase their pension plan so they can buy supplemental health insurance..."
rockford, do you hear yourself? GM is not making any money to increase UAW pension plan payouts! Or do you expect Obama funds to pay for this pension increase? Haven't we all learned on here that the UAW pensioners are making large amounts of monthly pension benefits after they retire? Why do they need an additional booster to just pay for supplemental health insurance? We're talking bleeding out here for GM funds, and this situation is nothing new. More is going out than is coming in. You can't just strike GM now to subsidize your glorious retirement. Newsflash-GM Joyride is Over!
I would think that a good percentage of those people could entirely pay for their own health insurance when retired on those great UAW-earned GM monthly pension payments. Once again a healthy dose of reality is required here, rock.
Tell me just how big of a wage cut did the old timers take? The UAW is playing games with the new hires. That should be plain to you. A real Union does not cut the wages of just the lower guys on the seniority list.
They didn't cut the wages on the low guys. Those jobs were created at $18 an hour with zero benefits. The UAW agreed to a two-tiered wage scale a few years before the 2007 contract. They knew people like you would [non-permissible content removed] and moan if they didn't take it. The UAW however faught for benefits for it's new memebers. They just aren't as good. If they would of been a non-union shop they would of gotten a lot less. I wished you again look at the facts before going heel.
It is across the board. Same goes for Retirees. When the AK Teamsters eliminated Health Care for the retirees it included those already retired as well as the next generation of retirees. That is fair and equal. Just take a long hard look at the UAW contracts and tell me they treat all the workers in a given job equally. That is what a REAL Union does.
Again the the jobs were $18 bucks an hour with zero benefits. I was offered the opportunity while working at Pantex. They were called temp jobs with no guarantees thus I turned it down. I of course regret it now. The UAW got them benefits and a status that went from temp to fulltime so they could get those benefits unlike your beloved Toyota that works there people part-time with fulltime hours with no benefits. imidazol97 has posted plenty of links proving this. :P
That is what I see with the UAW. The older workers making the big bucks with golden parachutes and the new hires taking the hit. You should be ashamed of that kind of treatment. And in this case I do not believe Reuther would have gone along with the contract. All for one, and One for all is not part of a two tier wage package.
LOL you aren't going to convince me that you old timers in the Teamsters never screwed over the younger workers???? It is part of it. When the younger generation gets enough numbers then they can gain control of power. It has happened that way at every union I've worked for. I agree with you that the sacrifice should be shared but the facts are those contracts of having "temps" were negotiated with the union long before the first new hire that replaced a veteran happened. You really have nary a clue as to what happened. I know because I was contemplating leaving Texas for Michigan back in early 2006. I knew my marriage was doomed but I was still in denial at that time. If I would of left then it would of saved me tens of thousands of dollars.
Hardly. They get by with a little help from the Dad, me. My daughter is doing better in Indiana than they did here in CA. They should be closing on a home soon. They would NEVER have been able to buy a home in CA. My daughter and husband together do not make the base pay that a Delphi fork lift operator makes. Which is somewhere in the $65k to $80k+ per year without OT. Unless Oscar was lying on his bankruptcy case.
You are freaken hilarious Gary. You keep on ranting half-truths as facts. Sounds like a few people on the radio I know you listen too *cough* Rush ummm Hannity :P A UAW forklift worker at Delphi starts out at $14 an hr. and if he is high seniority he might be cracking $16 an/hr. mark by now. Not hardly a $65K let alone $85K position. A material handler that worked at Delphi was making $28 bucks an hour before the restructuring and buyouts and that comes out to $58K and change WITHOUT OVERTIME GARY. You would have to work quite a bit of OT to hit $80K + a year mark back then. My father retired as a Job Setter and made $29 an/hr. He cracked the $60K mark. I am happy that you help your kids since you are financially able too. Despite all our disagreements I believe you are a good guy. I remember you saying that one of your kids lives in Texas and is making the big bucks. I wish all of your kids the best. We all our facing a tough world right now.
A level playing field would mean the UAW workers should be making the average for manufacturing throughout the USA. That is not the case. There are factories everywhere with people making $10 per hour and sometimes less. You should think about the playing field being level in the USA before you try leveling it across the globe. My ex brother in law slung hides in a packing plant until he went on SS. You ever go into a beef packing plant? You think that any job in the auto industry is any messier than scraping cow hides? Well he was always paid just above minimum wage in Modesto California. No incentive to better himself. Sound like folks you know in the UAW. The difference is in the UAW you make as much as many with expensive degrees. How fair and level is that playing field? I don't think you know what fair is.
You are trying to be a thorn in my side ain't cha!!! :P The level playing field is in regards to american business competing on a equal playing field. What they pay there employees is between them and the individual employee or union. I lived around the #1 and #2 beef packing plants in the U.S. #1 is called SWIFT in Cactus, TX. On a humid rainy day you could smell it when the wind blew right at my FIL farm house where I lived for 3 years in Dalhart, TX. When I relocated to Dumas, TX one could smell it (Swift).....#2 Was the owned by Tyson and we could smell it when the wind blew right at Pantex. I never really cared for the air in that part of the country because it either smelled like cow and horse [non-permissible content removed], death, oil.....I'll take the occassional smell of industry any day and if I want real fresh air I'm a short drive away from Lake Michigan. :shades: or dads house on the lake in Pullman, MI.
That is why our friend really has no comprehension of business reality...just make them pay more into the fund, as tho money grows on trees...strike for more, but the company is going under...use the force of gov't to make them pay the UAW more, as tho there is any money left at all...the simple fact of youth and growing up in an entitlement welfare (UAW) family means that they just think that checks just come in the mail from nowhere...GM is going under, and they simply do NOT get it...the idiots in the UAW almost make the mentally handicapped look intelligent...they have this "pay for nothing in retirement" as tho it is the minimum for working, when nobody has that kind of pension, but if you can say "welfare mentality" you have the lack of intelligence and the attitude of your UAW member...
Ten years from now they still won't get it...
Junkyard: "The Japanese use a lot of the same suppliers as the big 3, but their quality demands are higher and their parts cost a little more in some cases to build."...are you saying that Toy and Hon may buy dashboards from Johnson Controls, just like GM, but they have Johnson make their parts to a higher quality standard???...if true, I am surprised...I did not know that suppliers are simply making components at different standards for different makers...
Maybe someone working for a supplier can verify what they do, or how they cut corners, depending on who the buyer is...
Delphi-Low End entry level $14 an hour Top Wage $17 at the end of the contract. Skilled Trades Top paid skilled trades on 3rd shift i.e. Machine Repairman or Tool & Die $38 an hour. My step-dad when he is on 3rd shift as a Millwright makes $37 an hour or a dollar less than Gary did many years ago. My step-dad went to college for 4 years to get his journeymans card. His benefits and retirment are crap compared to the what the old timers got before they left but that is life and it's better pay than a lot of jobs.
GM's two tiered wage scale will start UAW workers out at $14/hr and they will top out at $16.50 an/hr. if and when they hire again. I'm not sure what the UAW workers hired in 2006 to replace the higher paid veterans will top out. They started out at $18 an hour. I believe dad said they can top out at $22 an hour or something but there benefits will never be what his was. The top pay right now is $28 an/hr. as some of the old timers are still employed. I fully expect another round of buyouts at GM to get the old timers to leave. Delphi offered a round of buyouts last month and a lot more took it than what they expected. :surprise:
How much labor and parts do you think it costs GM to build a $55K Cadillac STS??? I am willing to bet my left arm that they can fully assemble a STS for well under $20K a unit. I know about 5 years ago they could make a $35K truck for about $14K. Remember those featherbedders you talk so much smack about are only 8.4% of the cost if it is even that high now thus I think you need to pull your head out of the sand and re examine what you are ranting about. It is not the UAW workers fault that a Caddy STS depreciates in half. Maybe if GM would of put a top notch interior in it like they have the CTS and put the ULTRA V8 instead of the old Northstar it might hold it's residual a lot better??? Have you thought about that??? I doubt it!!!! It's the UAW workers fault because he designed and engineered it right???? :confuse: He told Johnson Controls to cut corners on the fit and finish and quality of plastic to be used right??? :confuse: Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepers Marsh7!!!!!! You need to pour yourself a drink and chill!!!! :P
"We commend the UAW's leadership for their endless determination and perseverance in reaching this tentative agreement," Chrysler said in a statement."
i work at a supplier that makes parts for big 3 plus toyota among others....i have seen all parts receive the same level of attention if their is a problem...we make rubber and steel cases for seals and they are sent to be molded at another factory...in my mind there is no difference between what we make for GM or toyota
Don't tell the Consumer Reports readers on this board that because they will call you a liar. Sure is there some areas on a car better made than others sure but some believe the hyperbole that there camcord is superior made over a Big 3 car today. The facts just don't support your CR B.S. anymore!!!
great news for us in auto related bizness...i wonder what hit the workers took, fiat said they wanted pay cuts or no deal....another thing, i feel that the 6 big transmission parts we make for chrysler are every bit as good as ones we make for yota...i worked for awhile in a dept that made water pump seals for honda accords and i know our quality was good...they moved that business to a georgia plant..we also make the same bearing seals that go into GM trucks and saabs, i never knew that till last week
Comments
Why? Are you saying that the U.S. government should not have allowed Toyota & Honda to build factories here unless they first "buddied up" with GM & Chrysler? You'd expect this sort of meddling in business from the Chinese government. They're Communists, after all, & Communists believe that the Party should call the shots. So if you're a Communist, this makes sense.
But if you believe in free markets & private enterprise, the idea that government should be allowed to do this ought to scare you. Do you think that the bureaucrats have some kind of hidden talent for picking winners & losers? I certainly don't.
From where I sit, the market is working just as it should. GM & Chrysler failed to reduce legacy costs by wresting concessions from the UAW when times were good & now they're on the verge of bankruptcy. The D2 aren't innocent victims of circumstances beyond their control; they made bad business decisions & now they'll pay the price. That's fine with me. That's how the world is supposed to work.
I guess I'd make a pretty bad Communist.
I think you'd better check what is happening today in USA.
>GM & Chrysler failed to reduce legacy costs by wresting concessions from the UAW
Was Ford paying UAW below the wage rate at GM/C? That's what the post suggests. Ford has a role in here too.
All three were played the same way by UAW with strikes against the one making the most money at the time while the other two continued to produce and sell cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM explained in the filing that the manager of the fund, State Street Bank and Trust, under certain circumstances is specifically authorized to do exactly what it did: :
* If “there is a serious question concerning General Motors short-term viability as a going concern without resorting to bankruptcy proceedings.”
* Or if “there is no possibility in the short-term of recouping any substantial proceeds from the sale of stock in bankruptcy proceedings.”
In the filing, GM said that “State Street made the determination that this standard had been met due to the economic climate and the circumstances surrounding GM’s business.”
GM said the fund began selling the stock on March 31, and completed the sales today. The fund is going to be liquidated, and will no longer be offered as an option on GM retirement plans.
Draw your own conclusions.
I don't have to like it. Let the market work. Most of us will be better off.
Was Ford paying UAW below the wage rate at GM/C? That's what the post suggests. Ford has a role in here too.
Sure it does, but Ford made one brilliant business decision that bought it some breathing space. Back in 2006, before the credit markets went haywire, Ford's then-new CEO, Alan Mulally, called in the banks & borrowed every nickel he could on favorable terms. As a result, Ford is much better capitalized today & stands a decent chance of solving its legacy cost problems & bringing new products to market before its money runs out.
Ford isn't out of the woods yet, but it will almost certainly outlast at least one of its rivals & pick up additional market share. That's the market at work - rewarding good decisions.
All three were played the same way by UAW with strikes against the one making the most money at the time while the other two continued to produce and sell cars.
That gambit worked as well as it did for as long as it did because the D3 worried more about losing sales to one another than they did about outside - foreign - rivals. Convinced that imports would never amount to much in this market, the D3 purchased labor peace by giving the UAW whatever it wanted & then passing on the cost to us. They figured that we'd pay it without protesting. In other words, they behaved like a regulated utility with a monopoly on their customer base. Competition? What competition? People have to buy from us, they figured. Where else can they go? They'll pay whatever we charge.
That strategy worked until we, the consumers, decided that we didn't have to put up with it. We could take our business elsewhere, & we did. The D3's market share dropped but their labor costs didn't. As we see now, they were too stupid & short-sighted to deal with that until it was too late.
Let 'em die. I'd like to see Ford get through this, but if it doesn't, that's OK.
Yup. That's right. They felt initially the demand for smaller cars would go away. They felt they could build reduced size versions of body on frame vehicles with engines shrunk a little without designing from scratch with the then necessary new factories. Part of avoiding new factories would have to do with UAW problems and agreements.
I can't see that the UAW did anything to help fend off the attack.
>purchased labor peace by giving the UAW whatever it wanted & then passing on the cost
Yup. The problem is doing the right thing in hindsight is much easier to effect than knowing what to do at the time. Some of us should have been in charge of GM/C/Ford through the 80s and we could have set them right in real time rather than in retrospect.
Allowing a split pay scale for UAW rather than demanding all take a lesser pay reduction and benefits reduction was a major mistake.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is what Ch 11 is for...keep the company running but shed debt and contract obligations...it is the only way for them to survive...GM has to shrink from its current size, if they cannot make money at 9 million vehicles (2007) then their cost structure is too high...assuming (yes, I know what happens when you assume) that they pay similar rates for steel, plastic, dashboards, wheels, tires etc, and if they have wrung out all the costs on those they can, the next variable is labor and its associated costs...
Dump the UAW contract and its entire wage structure, start over with realistic wages and no union...have them do what everybody else in this country does, part part of their own health insurance premiums (25-50%) and pay ALL of the additional premium for spouse and children (THAT will place cost controls like nothing else you have ever seen, when they pay for their own from their pocket)...cease and desist on pensions and offer straight 401K with matching (if affordable)...dump retireee benefits simply because you cannot get blood from a stone, and GM has no money...
For all those who keep bleating and whing about "but they signed a contract", just what do you think Ch 11 is for???...legalized breach of contract, plain and simple...they said they would, they cannot afford to do so, so they file Ch 11 and void the obligation...voila'...
It is no different than my Ch 7 clients...they signed a contract with Visa that they would pay...they suffered a severe income drop (lost their job, spouse lost job, less hours, illness, whatever) and now they cannot pay the Visa payments that they incurred when the income was there...so, they file Ch 7, wipe out the debt, and get the "fresh start"...all it boils down to is legalized (gov't sponsored) breach of contract w/o monetary penalties...
Oh, future credit will be difficult to obtain, but the crushing debt that is killing you now is wiped out...my clients are the same as GM except that GM is "slightly" bigger and their debts are simply a "few" billion more...
Just like my client does not worry about how Visa will make up the lost income, GM will not concern itself with retiree obligations and health insurance for workers...after all the UAW whining, the simple fact is this: THE MONEY TO PAY IT IS NOT THERE...REPEAT...THE MONEY TO PAY IT IS NOT THERE...
Yes, I have compassion for those who had something and may now lose it (retirees and their benefits)...but compassion changes nothing...no money, no benefits...
As stated earlier...they had virtually no skills whatsoever, very little education and/or literacy, and they were the highest paid unskilled workers...that was a gravy train that had to come to an end, someday...
Someday is here...
"D3 purchased labor peace by giving the UAW whatever it wanted & then passing on the cost to us. They figured that we'd pay it without protesting. In other words, they behaved like a regulated utility with a monopoly on their customer base. Competition? What competition? People have to buy from us, they figured. Where else can they go? They'll pay whatever we charge.
That strategy worked until we, the consumers, decided that we didn't have to put up with it. We could take our business elsewhere, & we did. The D3's market share dropped but their labor costs didn't."
Well put...what I have said all along...for years, no decades, they treated us, the buyers, like crap by selling us crap with the arrogant attitude that permeates the unskilled UAW...we went elsewhere, but the Big 3 were not smart enough 20 years, or even 10 years ago, to dump the UAW, or at least half of them, and change the method of manufacturing to put into place the newer, efficient methods of the imports...
To the UAW, the Big 3 existed simple to featherbed every single job they could...any attempt at manufacturing efficiency was met with a UAW strike...
Now WE have gone on strike by buying the competition...we, at some point in the future, will have done what the mgmt of the Big 3 could never do, stand up to the UAW...we did it by simply making them unnecessary in the numbers that they are...they will dump probably about half of them, leaving an emeciated, starving shadow of its former self, with no power and nobody left to care...
While short term pain will exist, in the long run we will win, and in the longer run, America will win...better manufacturing methods, better made cars, no more strikes (no more UAW) and people making cars who will NOT spend every waking moment trying to "get back at the Man", and, instead, will be happy to work and happy people make a better product...too many posters have documented sabotage and work slowdowns, just because the workers could get away with it...
Those days will soon be history, and the nation will breathe better when they are gone...
Sorry for the length of this...when the last UAW member leaves Michigan, please turn out the lights...mail some batteries to rocky in Grand Rapids so his flashlight will stay lit until he reaches the Michigan border... :P
What will salary jobs pay? My experience is that engineering at the D3 required a design that used cheaper materials to counter the high assembly costs.
Will the D3 cars take a jump in quality due to the change in cost structure and new profitability?
How will the transplants deal with a level playing field?
I got a bit lost in your long missive Bob. Were you talking about UAW workers or lawyers? :P
UAW in weekend talks with Chrysler (Reuters)
"The automaker on Friday announced a tentative deal with the Canadian Auto Workers union for concessions, shifting the focus now to talks with the UAW, which represents the automaker's U.S. hourly workers.
Central to any negotiation is the fate of a healthcare trust for union retirees, a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA, that was created as the centerpiece of Chrysler's UAW contract in 2007."
It it works out with the CAW, Chrysler Canada may not need bankruptcy protection
Ever heard of saving money? They're gonna have to pay half their medical insurance. I know, we don't like the 'S' word in America, but if ever there were a Company that needed to drop overhead, and UAW adds legacy costs like no other Union that I can think of in history, it would be GM.
BTW- where's dallasdude, anyway? Working hard at his UAW defense job? He and 62vette are pulling a Dennis Rodman and staying away from everything NBA.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As far as getting rid of lawyers, always remember the lawyer's creed, which I am making up as I go, but will hopefully be useful: Everyone hates us until THEIR rights have been violated, and then, suddenly, instantly, they need a lawyer...they rarely want to pay them, but they want a lawyer...
Also remember, all lawyers are crooks, because they bend the law as they see fit...until YOUR rights have been violated, and then we want to shrewest, most crooked lawyer we can find...again, they rarely want to pay them, but they want a lawyer...
I think we are a necessary evil...you know, like taxes and the UAW...oh, wait, we are about to destroy the UAW...but hopefully the lawyers will still be around...who else can file GM's bankruptcy, anyway???... :P
dave: "Will the D3 cars take a jump in quality due to the change in cost structure and new profitability?
How will the transplants deal with a level playing field?"
The transplants will simply do what they have been doing for years...kaizen...Japanese for "constant, incremental improvement"...it really would be a pleasure to see Honda and Toy actually fear the quality that a new GM or Ford could make...
The D3 would HAVE to improve quality with a better cost structure, or they literally have no reason to exist anymore...with no UAW to deal with, or legacy costs, or gold plated health insurance, their cost structure MUST go down, leaving money on the table for better materials inside the car...
But, one more thing must change, and it may be the most important one of all...work rules...like it or not, Honda/Toy method of manufacturing is the efficient method of the future, requiring only 1/3 the number of employees to make an equivalent number of cars from GM...so, despite killing the UAW, if they continue to use last century's manufacturing methods, GM will still need 6000 workers to make as many cars in a plant that Honda only needs 2000...that is an inherent labor cost differential regardless of union or not...paying 3 times the workers means that the model is not efficient...workers must be cross trained so they are more versatile...frankly, there probably is not ANY company in America that does not try to use efficient methods to reduce labor costs, and the only one from the dark ages is the auto trade...again, the gravy train for that is over...
D3 must dump all UAW simply because they will stick to the old methods and refuse to be retrained or they will, stupidly, strike...remember, UAW members are the most mindless sheeple one can find, and they live up to that charge every day...
They need all new workers with no rotten work habits, to be trained in modern methods of automaking...so, D3 management must also change its entire thought process to the better methods out there...
Obama promised change...UAW and D3 never dreamed just how much change they will experience, but their entire method of existence is now in question...GM has new management, now all they need is a new workforce, as the old UAW one has bad habits so deeply ingrained, they are part of their DNA...they need to go...NOW...
Back to the free markets for a minute. That means that Alabama and other states shouldn't be buying jobs by paying foreign companies to build plants there. "Senator Shelby doesn't mention, of course, that his state has already distorted and fiddled with the so-called "free market" by funding foreign-owned Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda to the tune of nearly a billion dollars in taxpayer money to lure those brands' factories to his state."--
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
P.S.The UAW workers aren't the problem with GM. It is the double standard of Wall Street and unfair trade laws that put every american business at a disadvantage. Someday you will realize that as right now your are just to blind to recognize what is happening around you. Perhaps turn the Rush knob to off and look at the facts.
-Rocky
P.S. When are you going to add some pics to your carspace. I want you to prove to me that you buy american iron because I am having a difficult time believing you do!!!! :P Check out my Carspace again Marsha7
It doesn't really matter. If the judge doesn't tear up the contracts then GM will be broken up and sold to other companies. No company is going to emerge from bankruptcy if it can't generate a profit. Unless GM has some alternative magic bullet that doesn't void much of the UAW contracts. If they have such a bullet they haven't felt the need to use it yet. One thing they could do is just outsource manufacturing to other countries. With no US manufacturing, no need to worry about UAW costs for current staff, but retired employees would still drag down finances.
-Rocky
-Rocky
It appears it is about official....I didn't believe it would survive even with the rumors of it becoming a niche brand. I personally would of liked to have seen the G6 survive as a Chevy but perhaps some version of it might make it's appearance at a later date??? I guess they could make a Malibu coupe or something??? :confuse: I guess there goes a lot of UAW jobs. :sick:
-Rocky
That would definitely be a big risk. But really, if you ran the New GM and your job was to make the company profitable, what would you do? I suspect you'd say kill all of the foreign competition through government action.
But given that is not very likely, you are running the new GM and you have tough choices. Presumably the New GM already is a lot smaller, has many fewer divisions, and has dumped a large number of uncompetitive vehicles. If you want to compete with other makes you need to be have desirable products but still be profitable. If the full healthcare costs are still on the books for the retirees, I don't know how the bankruptcy court is going to say GM is viable enough to emerge.
And I agree that if you are a retired worker it would suck big time. Even if I don't agree with the size of their retirement benefits, it's unfair not to get benefits that they counted on and planned for.
On a similar note, a family member's wife works as a California unionized school teacher in very large district. She is two years from retirement after over 30years of service. Her RETIREMENT BENEFITS are a pension of $6K/month, with full health care for herself and her husband, for the rest of their lives. No wonder we are taxed to death in this state.
No I wouldn't!!! Again for the millionth time I think competition on a level playing field is good for GM and the consumer.
But given that is not very likely, you are running the new GM and you have tough choices. Presumably the New GM already is a lot smaller, has many fewer divisions, and has dumped a large number of uncompetitive vehicles. If you want to compete with other makes you need to be have desirable products but still be profitable. If the full healthcare costs are still on the books for the retirees, I don't know how the bankruptcy court is going to say GM is viable enough to emerge.
Well now is this presidents chance to unveil his national healthcare plan. It would help GM cut costs and stay even more competitive. However that alone isn't going to save them. There needs to be tariffs slapped on the hoods of each import to level out the playing field. This would make it costly to use cheap foreign labor or manipulate your currency and those jobs would have to come back here and compete on a level playing field. I also would make sure EFCA passes to unionize the transplants.
And I agree that if you are a retired worker it would suck big time. Even if I don't agree with the size of their retirement benefits, it's unfair not to get benefits that they counted on and planned for.
Yep!!! The pension appears to be pretty secure but the healthcare is a different story. The best approach for the UAW is to pressure Obama to pass National Healthcare and in return to get GM to increase there pension plan so they can buy supplemental health insurance which would save GM billions and the retirees and active wouldn't lose any benefit coverage. That is how I personally would solve that issue.
On a similar note, a family member's wife works as a California unionized school teacher in very large district. She is two years from retirement after over 30years of service. Her RETIREMENT BENEFITS are a pension of $6K/month, with full health care for herself and her husband, for the rest of their lives.
Well that is more than double what my dad gets. Dad is getting $2900 a month thus taking a little less per month so my step-mom can collect in case he were to die. However he doesn't live in the costly state of California though either.
No wonder we are taxed to death in this state. Watch California keep raising taxes, and watch the businesses and affluent individuals leave. I am not planning on retiring in this state. It is like GM and the UAW, but on a larger level. And like the UAW, the state unions are choking our finances.
Seriously a home in California in the poor areas will run you $350K from what I could see by watching those HGTV shows like flip that house, etc. I'm sure it's a cool million or so where Gary aka gagrice lives in San Diego. I was born in Long Beach but I don't know what is so special about living there??? It is cheaper and warmer in Florida. I guess since I haven't been there since I was a baby I don't know what I'm missing, eh??? :P I'll take Michigan, and our 4 seasons any day. The only good thing about California, is six-foot tall blond bombshells are as common as the California sunshine from what I hear.
-Rocky
Tell me just how big of a wage cut did the old timers take? The UAW is playing games with the new hires. That should be plain to you. A real Union does not cut the wages of just the lower guys on the seniority list. It is across the board. Same goes for Retirees. When the AK Teamsters eliminated Health Care for the retirees it included those already retired as well as the next generation of retirees. That is fair and equal. Just take a long hard look at the UAW contracts and tell me they treat all the workers in a given job equally. That is what a REAL Union does.
What you see now is only the beginning of your serf n' elite society.
That is what I see with the UAW. The older workers making the big bucks with golden parachutes and the new hires taking the hit. You should be ashamed of that kind of treatment. And in this case I do not believe Reuther would have gone along with the contract. All for one, and One for all is not part of a two tier wage package.
your children might be living high on the hawg now with good jobs
Hardly. They get by with a little help from the Dad, me. My daughter is doing better in Indiana than they did here in CA. They should be closing on a home soon. They would NEVER have been able to buy a home in CA. My daughter and husband together do not make the base pay that a Delphi fork lift operator makes. Which is somewhere in the $65k to $80k+ per year without OT. Unless Oscar was lying on his bankruptcy case.
I think competition on a level playing field is good for GM and the consumer.
A level playing field would mean the UAW workers should be making the average for manufacturing throughout the USA. That is not the case. There are factories everywhere with people making $10 per hour and sometimes less. You should think about the playing field being level in the USA before you try leveling it across the globe. My ex brother in law slung hides in a packing plant until he went on SS. You ever go into a beef packing plant? You think that any job in the auto industry is any messier than scraping cow hides? Well he was always paid just above minimum wage in Modesto California. No incentive to better himself. Sound like folks you know in the UAW. The difference is in the UAW you make as much as many with expensive degrees. How fair and level is that playing field? I don't think you know what fair is.
$6K is chump change in Cali. That will get you what a modest house in the projects of Long Beach, Watts, Compton?
You really are out of touch with reality. I wish I was getting $6k per month pension. Mine after 37 years in the Teamsters is about 2/3rds that with NO HEALTH CARE. And I live quite comfortably in a very nice area of CA. I know I could live like a king in Michigan on $6K per month. That is $72k per year. Not a lot of people make that much here in CA. Maybe 5% of the workforce. Mostly in government. Which generates NO income other than taxes from the lower paid masses.
They are getting close to being complete with Medical Mile which will give us the finest hospitals in the country.
So why aren't you taking courses to get one of those great jobs? I think ILUV has tried to head you in that direction. I am sure you could get Federal aid of some sort to retrain yourself.
Would the same go for the transplants? How do you think they would react to having their pay slashed to $10-12/hr?
If the dust ever settles from this whole business, I would expect cuts. Not that drastic. I think if the UAW had cut all the workers to about $20 per hour and got rid of the retiree gold plated health care, we would not be looking at GM & C BK. And the bottom line is GM will never be able to replenish the Pension fund. So it will be in default with the PBGC at the end of this year. The UAW and D3 were running a Ponzi scheme just like Madoff and this housing/banking bubble exposed them both. The difference is the UAW/D3 leaders and management are still on the loose instead of in jail.
I don't want to know the average worker's salary. I want to know the top salaries and the lowest and the distribution between those. I like histograms or box-and-whisker plots of those things.
Same for the UAW at GM. I want to know what the top, older guys are still making. I don't want to hear about the average. The average can be lowered by the poor guys who got hired in at the lower new salary that still haven't been bumped out. I have nothing against the older UAW workers making a good salary, but I don't think they need an outrageous salary while the new hires were eating the dust on starvation salaries and then use the average to fool the numbers. The older, seniority UAW workers should have taken definite cuts a decade ago.
I always believe figures lie if not analyzed properly.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I already posted a story that the whole sequence is more than just UAW and high salaries. Indeed that includes management. All managements make mistakes.
But when it was time to adjust the last couple of decades the UAW kept on going up. Many people don't want to accept the government could have helped with this situation through the decades. Guvment has some responsibility to the citizens.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The future UAW will be a community organizing group which will make it viable to receive govt funds, your tax dollars, and joining the well-known Acorn plus the Americorps which between them have been awarded $ 10,000,000,000 to carry out protests and neighborhood projects including Election Fraud..
Someone mentioned high pay for teachers in retirement plus full health benefits and wondering where the money is coming from?? Remember AIG and the $100,000,000,000 of our tax dollars--yep they hold the majority of the NEA pensions...
Don't worry the UAW will end up sucking up our tax $$$$s. It's the liberal payback time..
Maybe some of you think the Obama "Shovel Ready Projects" will rescue the UAW folks, no back-breaking work for the loyalists..It's vacation time with pay, thanks to our new folks in DC.. Lots of beer drinking time with almost full pay, isn't Captialism Great!!!!
Old Henry Ford had the right idea about unionism, he fought it to the end, and of course he lost, but it wasn't a cakewalk for the workers..Any laid off UAW workers will draw unemployment benefits until at least the next election 2010...
If you are thinking about buying a foreign car assembled in the USA, better get one before the UAW organizes the bunch, for the quality will hit the bricks..I am sure that the current govt bunch have laid the groundwork for unionizing the Asians..w/o Card-check laws..
Love my country.
That's not a correct statement to assume that UAW in a plant would cause poor product. The BIG THREE gave the workers the parts to put together and oversaw the assembly.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, government is responsible for national defense, the court system & a few other things, none of which include "helping" (whatever that means) the American auto industry.
Remember, government can't do anything without our tax dollars. Why should I open my wallet to pay for government "help" to the D2 & the UAW? What's in it for me? If both GM & Chrysler disappear tomorrow, there will still be plenty of cars made by other companies in the showrooms when I'm ready to buy.
Go ahead & "help" the D2 & the UAW if you want to, but spend your own money. Socialism doesn't work, & I don't want to pay for it.
So you admit it then? :P
Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble, but I do get it about the ripple effect...but that is simply a symptom of what is to come, which I still blame on poor UAW work quality and featherbedding rules...you refuse to accept that the UAW has been the CAUSE of the downfall of the Big 3, so you are looking at the effects of what is happening, but you are in absolute denial about the cause...the UAW created a house of cards...a house of cards that stood for almost 50 years, because the wind was not strong enough to blow it down (meaning that they were able to pass off car price increases for years)...now the "quality chickens" have come home to roost and it isn't pretty...it took until now for the wind to get strong to blow over the house of cards...the wind is consumers going on strike for the UAW products...like it or not, whether bad design or rotten union (I pick the union) your products either do not sell, or your workers are reciving compensation that cannot be paid any longer, which they were never worth to start with...remember, the purpose of Bankruptcy is to break contracts and remove debt...
You mentioned that people making cars cannot afford to buy their own product...well, no wonder!!!...when I saw that $40,000 Chevrolet outside BJ's warehouse (like a Sams Club) I almost fell over...GM's base brand, designed for those just starting out (Sloan's model) was $40,000???...that means it goes up from there with other GM brands...and you wonder why people cannot afford to buy one???...you think I am going to spend $40K of my hard earned money on a CAR, especially a UAW-built car???...are you insane???...even if I don't buy cars for their resale value, that $40K Chevy would be worth under $20K in about 6 months...never mind the others, I know I can't afford that car, and that is a base Chevy...
As stated earlier, it isn't that wages have not kept up, it is that cars (and houses) grew in cost far in excess of the rate everything else grew...if you think a $40K Chevy is normal, then YOU need your head examined, esp when it is less than half that in a year...a 2008 STS was on sale here for $29,900, only 1 year old...probably over $55K new...if they were selling (asking price, would take less I am sure) it for $29,900, they offered the seller on his trade-in under $25K...so here we are in the middle of the 2009 model year, and a one year old Caddy was traded in for less than half of its pruchase price when new...rocky, the car simply costs too much, and UAW labor is the blame for that...Chevy at $40K new, Caddy at $55K new, under $30K one year later...they depreciate because they were NEVER worth it from the start...it sn't that people don't make enough money, it is that the cars are overpriced at $40-50,000...
Just because something has a price does NOT make it worth it, and a rapid-depreciating car like anything built by the UAW was never worth it to start...THAT is the problem...
BTW, that goes for housing, too...there is no house that was worth $100K in 2005, then 175K in 2006, and then 250K in 2007...that market was inflated by lying appraisers, who are probably the ones who really should be sitting in jail, because they are the ones that banks look to for valid appraisals...what you see in the housing market is NOT a depression, but a beginning of a return to normal and proper values...the house that was $300K in 2007 was only worth $175K anyway, but the frenzy and madness of crowds send it skyrocketing...it is simply coming back to ground level...
No, rocky, there simply is NO Chevrolet worth a sticker of $40K, and when you wake up and figure this out, you will have solved the problem of the Big 3...your beloved UAW...plain and simple...T
This entire midwest depression has been caused by overpaying unskilled UAW people over the years at a rate that was sustainable until NOW, and now the money is gone...just like madoff's pryramid has crumbled, so must the entire pay structure of the UAW...they were never worth it, they aren't worth it, and they can no longer be paid anything like the past, because, like it or not, the market has spoken and they ain't buying no more...Obama promised change, and you got what you voted for...
Regards,
OW
The UAW AND CAW have screwed themselves out of jobs by being so greedy with their demands over the years along with the big 3 building bad quality vehicles. Yes their vehicles have been better in the last couple years, but it's too dam late. People have shown that they won't buy them and everyone is crying buy American, we are losing our jobs. The Japanese use a lot of the same suppliers as the big 3, but their quality demands are higher and their parts cost a little more in some cases to build.
I can not see how anyone can think that an employee that works for the UAW OR CAW is more special then someone that does the same job as a person that is not in a union. There are more people losing thousands of dollars from their pensions every week then there are UAW and CAW workers in North America and I don't see anyone crying for them. Most of them worked for a heck of a lot less over the years and harder to have part of their pension taken away from them.
That is exactly correct. Trying to get that message through the thick heads of those that worship the UAW, is not easy. They somehow feel UAW workers are superior to the millions of working people in this country that were not born into their Union. Millions of US citizens work just as hard or harder than the UAW workers, and make a heck of a lot less. And when it is time to retire only have SS or a small pension.
What has Obama done or said about helping those that live on 401K investments? It seems the only worry is protecting the $millions given by unions to campaign funds.
...and in return to get GM to increase there pension plan so they can buy supplemental health insurance which would save GM billions and the retirees and active wouldn't lose any benefit coverage. That is how I personally would solve that issue.
Oh, I see, you and the UAW will just strong-arm, or "get" as you say, GM to "increase their pension plan so they can buy supplemental health insurance..."
rockford, do you hear yourself? GM is not making any money to increase UAW pension plan payouts! Or do you expect Obama funds to pay for this pension increase? Haven't we all learned on here that the UAW pensioners are making large amounts of monthly pension benefits after they retire? Why do they need an additional booster to just pay for supplemental health insurance? We're talking bleeding out here for GM funds, and this situation is nothing new. More is going out than is coming in. You can't just strike GM now to subsidize your glorious retirement. Newsflash-GM Joyride is Over!
I would think that a good percentage of those people could entirely pay for their own health insurance when retired on those great UAW-earned GM monthly pension payments. Once again a healthy dose of reality is required here, rock.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
They didn't cut the wages on the low guys. Those jobs were created at $18 an hour with zero benefits. The UAW agreed to a two-tiered wage scale a few years before the 2007 contract. They knew people like you would [non-permissible content removed] and moan if they didn't take it. The UAW however faught for benefits for it's new memebers. They just aren't as good. If they would of been a non-union shop they would of gotten a lot less. I wished you again look at the facts before going heel.
It is across the board. Same goes for Retirees. When the AK Teamsters eliminated Health Care for the retirees it included those already retired as well as the next generation of retirees. That is fair and equal. Just take a long hard look at the UAW contracts and tell me they treat all the workers in a given job equally. That is what a REAL Union does.
Again the the jobs were $18 bucks an hour with zero benefits. I was offered the opportunity while working at Pantex. They were called temp jobs with no guarantees thus I turned it down. I of course regret it now.
That is what I see with the UAW. The older workers making the big bucks with golden parachutes and the new hires taking the hit. You should be ashamed of that kind of treatment. And in this case I do not believe Reuther would have gone along with the contract. All for one, and One for all is not part of a two tier wage package.
LOL you aren't going to convince me that you old timers in the Teamsters never screwed over the younger workers???? It is part of it. When the younger generation gets enough numbers then they can gain control of power. It has happened that way at every union I've worked for. I agree with you that the sacrifice should be shared but the facts are those contracts of having "temps" were negotiated with the union long before the first new hire that replaced a veteran happened. You really have nary a clue as to what happened. I know because I was contemplating leaving Texas for Michigan back in early 2006. I knew my marriage was doomed but I was still in denial at that time. If I would of left then it would of saved me tens of thousands of dollars.
Hardly. They get by with a little help from the Dad, me. My daughter is doing better in Indiana than they did here in CA. They should be closing on a home soon. They would NEVER have been able to buy a home in CA. My daughter and husband together do not make the base pay that a Delphi fork lift operator makes. Which is somewhere in the $65k to $80k+ per year without OT. Unless Oscar was lying on his bankruptcy case.
You are freaken hilarious Gary. You keep on ranting half-truths as facts. Sounds like a few people on the radio I know you listen too *cough* Rush ummm Hannity :P A UAW forklift worker at Delphi starts out at $14 an hr. and if he is high seniority he might be cracking $16 an/hr. mark by now. Not hardly a $65K let alone $85K position. A material handler that worked at Delphi was making $28 bucks an hour before the restructuring and buyouts and that comes out to $58K and change WITHOUT OVERTIME GARY. You would have to work quite a bit of OT to hit $80K + a year mark back then. My father retired as a Job Setter and made $29 an/hr. He cracked the $60K mark. I am happy that you help your kids since you are financially able too. Despite all our disagreements I believe you are a good guy.
A level playing field would mean the UAW workers should be making the average for manufacturing throughout the USA. That is not the case. There are factories everywhere with people making $10 per hour and sometimes less. You should think about the playing field being level in the USA before you try leveling it across the globe. My ex brother in law slung hides in a packing plant until he went on SS. You ever go into a beef packing plant? You think that any job in the auto industry is any messier than scraping cow hides? Well he was always paid just above minimum wage in Modesto California. No incentive to better himself. Sound like folks you know in the UAW. The difference is in the UAW you make as much as many with expensive degrees. How fair and level is that playing field? I don't think you know what fair is.
You are trying to be a thorn in my side ain't cha!!! :P The level playing field is in regards to american business competing on a equal playing field. What they pay there employees is between them and the individual employee or union.
con't............
Ten years from now they still won't get it...
Junkyard: "The Japanese use a lot of the same suppliers as the big 3, but their quality demands are higher and their parts cost a little more in some cases to build."...are you saying that Toy and Hon may buy dashboards from Johnson Controls, just like GM, but they have Johnson make their parts to a higher quality standard???...if true, I am surprised...I did not know that suppliers are simply making components at different standards for different makers...
Maybe someone working for a supplier can verify what they do, or how they cut corners, depending on who the buyer is...
GM's two tiered wage scale will start UAW workers out at $14/hr and they will top out at $16.50 an/hr. if and when they hire again. I'm not sure what the UAW workers hired in 2006 to replace the higher paid veterans will top out. They started out at $18 an hour. I believe dad said they can top out at $22 an hour or something but there benefits will never be what his was. The top pay right now is $28 an/hr. as some of the old timers are still employed. I fully expect another round of buyouts at GM to get the old timers to leave. Delphi offered a round of buyouts last month and a lot more took it than what they expected. :surprise:
I hope that breaks it down a little pal.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky :sick:
Chrysler, unions make progress as deadline nears (Reuters)
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky