socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great; but when government takes all the reward away; no one will try or want to succeed.
Agree. I think Japan tried to mix socialism with capitalism, with reasonable success. Here is how it worked : 1. Do not have a big difference between the successful and the unsuccessful. So in the Texas Tech example, it would be something like "The results will be averaged out, but the top 10% will get a grade above the average" 2. There would be an informal system of identifying who the laggards were, and social pressure ("You are pulling everyone else down") would be brought to bear on them.
This is the reason why a city like Tokyo (with its huge population density) can be spotlessly clean (even though there are no fines against littering / graffiti). Everyone is taught that littering is bad because it causes inconvenience ("meiwaku") to others. So even if I don't care about dirty streets, I don't litter since there are others who care and I do not want to create meiwaku for them.
But this system is also unravelling - because it did not produce any Microsofts or Googles for Japan (though one may argue it did not produce any Enron or Worldcom's either...). American capitalism was seen to be the undisputed winner - Till the events of the last six months.....
I like your theory: The ONLY cars to buy in America that are acuually made in America all have names like Toy Hon. The only jobs Americans need in the auto industry are not the ones you need to send you children to college to get. The trillion dollars a year of defecit spending the government now does MUST not include a few billion as a loan to the auto industry. I have a St. Catherines built Silverado that has parts in it that were developed in the US. How did that happen? Must be a glitch in the theory.
With all this Asians adding jobs stuff going on, why is the economy headed down?
My undergraduate degree is in chemistry. The energy problem is a huge one and there are no easy fixes.
By the way, I have a Master's degree in Physics. Rocky's statement that Cold Fusion is being demonstrated on TV means that I wasted all that time (getting the degree).
"......It is what I and others have been more/less saying what the major flaw with capitalism. It boils down to personal morals and ethics."
The sad part is it's NOT the flaw in capitalism, it's a HUMAN flaw. Another quote from Inamori:
".....From the Eastern viewpoint, profits should be pursued for the good of society, and not only for one's self. There is the principle of "enough is enough," that one's greed should be contained."
".....But this system is also unravelling - because it did not produce any Microsofts or Googles for Japan (though one may argue it did not produce any Enron or Worldcom's either...). American capitalism was seen to be the undisputed winner - Till the events of the last six months....."
That's too bad that some feel that way over there. I like this Inamori's Altruistic approach to things.
Cold fusion is widely hoped for, but has never been demonstrated as real. If it occurs it is a LONG way off.
They did a show on it Sunday and it was proven real without any doubts now.
Please send me a link. I highly doubt it. There has been lots of talk and efforts but never proven. If and when it is REALLY proven it will be huge news. Has not happened. Keep on hoping.
After years of being berated (mainly by the US media and analysts) for pussyfooting with a half and half of socialism and capitalism, and being regularly given the example of Google and Goldman Sachs, we finally decided to go for a more capitalism driven model, and put up with the associated ills (higher income disparity, unraveling of the system I described in my previous post etc). And now it turns out that a lot of the "value" generated by the star driven model we were aspiring for did not exist in the first place (did Citibank and Merrill ever make any money?).
But at least I am convinced that a backlash to socialism is not going to work either - I would like the pendulum to stop in the middle (where it used to be), but pendulums, governed by law of physics as they are, will swing....
Inamori became a monk, and donated his wealth to charities. Somewhat different mindset from Dick Fuld and Co. But he is a very impressive speaker.
They did a show on it Sunday and it was proven real without any doubts now.
Please send me a link. I highly doubt it.
Your problem is (as is mine) - You studied science in the university. I did not see this program on 60 min, but with this 60 min has lost some credibility with me....
A physicist who actually saw the program has this to say "As an energy technologist, however, I didn’t see anything that would suggest we’re going to see some big game changer anytime soon — and the featured scientist/advocate was guilty of some particularly unconvincing and counterproductive hype. I’d say cold fusion may have moved from junk science to the realm of hydrogen or fusion — decades away, at best, but possibly never very useful
By the way, the latest fusion technology still requires 100x more energy input than the output - And the fusion is delivered by high powered laser bursts, so lasts only for a billionth of a second or so. And it is not cold at all (the temperature required is actually even higher than what exists at the core of the sun).
Apologies for car fans for this digression - but I find it hard to keep quite when there are some factual misstatements being made....especially in an area where I ahve some knowledge....
so what do you think of the carbon cap obama will be pushing?...there is no consensus that this is necessary...
This is a tough one. One thing we humans should learn is that when we think we understand something we often don't.....so I'm not fully convinced the warming is caused by CO2.... but if it IS, we are in trouble. So here are two alternatives:
1 - Global warming is more of a normal long term cycle we don't understand (my guess... 30% probability) 2 - Global warming is caused by fossil fuels burning and releasing CO2, or other particulates and gases of human origin (my guess... 70% probability).
If 1) is correct, then all the caps, etc. may be a waste of time and money. But do you want to risk it? If 2) is correct, then we are probably screwed. I strongly doubt that the human race will have the will power and foresight to make an extremely aggressive and meaningful dent in the problem in a quick enough time frame. We are probably already nearly to the point of no return. Fossil fuel usage is still growing and China/India have huge and growing appetites for the lifestyle we already enjoy in the "first world" countries. Some combination of less energy use in the world (fat chance) and carbon sequestration and/or alternative energy sources would be needed. It's going to take 10-30 years for that. So the amount of additional CO2 that will be generated while we wait..... you see the problem.
The course is set. The question is what gets us (humans, not just Americans) first? - disease, global warming, water shortage, lack of energy, lack of other resources.... or war exacerbated by one of these?
I don't mean to be pessimistic, but the UAW and globalization are pretty small problems in comparison. Hope I'm wrong.
The above is the story I watched. I have believed in this energy source for many years now. I guess when you work with some of the smartest human beings in the world for 6 years you learn a few things.
Wanting something to be and its actually being are two different things. The masses are always looking for the magic cure for all our ills and problems. The 60 minutes piece was not even close to conclusive. It was hopeful as you are. 20 years later it is still a BIG unknown. How much is hype just to get funding from a gullible President and Congress?
"A wasted opportunity," Fleischmann replied.
He thinks this way because it was discredited at the time.
He told Pelley he has two regrets: calling the nuclear effect "fusion," a name coined by a competitor, and having that news conference, something he says the University of Utah wanted.
"Now that you know that your experiments have been replicated and, and improved upon in labs all over the world I wonder, do you see a day when homes will be powered by these cells, when cars will be powered by these cells?" Pelley asked.
"I think so. It wouldn’t take very long to implement this," Fleischman replied, laughing. "You make me feel that I should take a part in this?"
Will this 60 minutes piece expose the process to peer review and kill it as in 1989?
The bottom line, it will not help GM or the UAW. Wagoner and Klutz killed GM research 10 years ago into electric vehicles. Taking a couple $billion tax dollars and crushing the experimental EV-1. The very least they should have done was sell the cars to people for experimentation. Just like so called "Fusion" was crippled by naysayers, GM set US made EVs back at least a decade. Now the Japanese, Italians, French, Norwegians, Chinese and Indians are way out ahead of the USA, thanks to your hero Wagoner.
Cold fusion not proven yet. Natural gas is part of the answer to near and long term energy needs.
Look at May, 2009 issue of National Geographic, pages 118 and 119. Boom town of Hammerfest, Norway has workers pouring in from 42 countries to fill jobs relating to production of liquified natural gas. Hammerfest is above Arctic Circle.
Maybe anyone that is fit, youngish, willing to work hard - and perhaps Norweigan heritage could be a plus - can find opportunity there. Don't know whether any unions, such as UAW or Teamsters, were organized to work at Snohvit, the company that is processing the gas.
Wanting something to be and its actually being are two different things. The masses are always looking for the magic cure for all our ills and problems. The 60 minutes piece was not even close to conclusive. It was hopeful as you are. 20 years later it is still a BIG unknown. How much is hype just to get funding from a gullible President and Congress?
You and I must of watched two different shows. Yes there was objective points of views. I think billion$ should be spent on R&D regarding Cold Fusion. It is the one energy source worth taking the risk. Windmills aren't going to save us. I think you can agree with me, eh???
The bottom line, it will not help GM or the UAW.
Instead of people dumping money into the pockets of Big Oil they might drive a lot more via Cold Fusion thus causing vehicles to wear out faster and buying new ones more often.
Wagoner and Klutz killed GM research 10 years ago into electric vehicles.
Yeah it was a mistake.
The very least they should have done was sell the cars to people for experimentation. Just like so called "Fusion" was crippled by naysayers, GM set US made EVs back at least a decade. Now the Japanese, Italians, French, Norwegians, Chinese and Indians are way out ahead of the USA, thanks to your hero Wagoner.
What they learned from the EV1 has been applied to the Volt. If they are so far behind why will the Volt be the worlds first plug-in hybrid??? :P The 2-Mode hybrid battery pack is the best on the market. :P Gagrice, you really need to stop some of your ranting and take a look at the big picture pal.
2. Global warming is caused by fossil fuels burning and releasing CO2, or other particulates and gases of human origin (my guess... 70% probability). If 2) is correct, then we are probably screwed. I strongly doubt that the human race will have the will power and foresight to make an extremely aggressive and meaningful dent in the problem in a quick enough time frame.
Hold on. Don't underestimate human ingenuity. Yesterday's WSJ had article on page D3 whereby "Royal Dutch Shell plans to dispose of millions of tons of carbon dioxide deep below the surface of the earth. Shell will transport CO2 from its Pernis oil refinery near Rotterdam in the Netherlands to Barendrecht, where CO2 will be compressed and injected into the earth 2-3 kilometers past the nonpermeable caprock layer."
Locals (1300) in town of Barendrecht are trying to block the plan. Nothing said in article about whether or not the locals formed a (formal) union to move their message to the city council and then to Shell.
Check it out. Is it not a goal to move to Norway? Also, working above the Arctic Circle will build character and will allow the gathering of many stories to tell the grandkids. We have a colleague on this board that could provide tips, the main one would be to not agitate to form any unions when there.
Nope. I have no idea where you got that??? Please go re read my posts. :confuse:
Also, working above the Arctic Circle will build character and will allow the gathering of many stories to tell the grandkids.
I like the snow for about 3 months November (For Deer Hunting) December & January (holidays) and after that I start getting tired of it. This past winter was beginning to wear on everyone I knew here in Michigan.
We have a colleague on this board that could provide tips, the main one would be to not agitate to form any unions when there.
I wouldn't be able to help myself. I assume they are already unionized though.
".....From the Eastern viewpoint, profits should be pursued for the good of society, and not only for one's self. There is the principle of "enough is enough," that one's greed should be contained."
What they learned from the EV1 has been applied to the Volt. If they are so far behind why will the Volt be the worlds first plug-in hybrid?
Hardly the first. In fact one of the companies in the USA that bid on building batteries for the Volt, A123 has converted dozens of Prius to plug-in hybrids. I consider the concept flawed. I would rather have a pure EV. Not a lot of crap to go bad as in hybrids. You have to ask yourself why did GM decide to use Korean Li-Ion Cells instead of US made batteries? Probably comes down to labor costs. Though I would not bet that A123 does not get their cells from China or elsewhere.
have a St. Catherines built Silverado hope you enjoy your Canadian Chevy, you likely did more damage to the US economy buying it than had you bought a Texas built Tundra. And then we float GM billions of dollars of our tax money so they can build trucks in freaking Canada! Something wrong with this picture. :sick:
Do we have a battery plant here in the U.S. that could build them gagrice??? Barry said the batteries for these plug-ins were going to be built here didn't he??? Is GM, planning on in the near future buying from U.S, suppliers??? I honestly van't comment as I don't know the whole picture. I wished 62vettefp was still around so we could ask him. :sick:
"There is also no such thing as lug nut tighteners either Mr. Marsha7"...OK, please give me a brief list of the various UAW job classifications on the assembly line, so I may properly refer to the unskilled, yet overpaid, job class XXX...
I still wonder why so many are against a GM Chapter 11...if they aren't selling enough cars, all their suppliers are in trouble anyway, but Ch 11 just allows them to use the law to reduce their debt...without Ch 11, they will, simply, default on their debt to their suppliers, and either way the suppliers are in trouble...so, if the outcome is the same, why not let GM wipe the slate clean and start all over again, smaller, leaner, and without the anchor of the UAW dragging them down
All those against bankruptcy act as tho GM will be restored to its former size and all the suppliers will be paid...the money isn't there, and suppliers will get the shaft anyway...sad, but true...just like my bankruptcy clients...you cannot get vlood from a turnip, so bankruptcy just lets them start over...either way, creditors are not going to be paid if there is no money...
So all you that keep harping on the "ripple effect" of a GM Ch 11, just their downsizing alone, making fewer cars, is causing the ripple effect...there is no difference...if Saabs and Saturns don't sell, what do you expect GM to do, keep buying parts and paying creditors for cars that do not sell???...are you THAT brainwashed by UAW entitlement thinking that you think money grows on trees???
About that article from the Kyocera guy...when he said that capitalism just needed some help (poor paraphrasing) and when it is over we will return to a free market system, that, to me, was the problem...the free market would have washed out the trash and we would rise from the ashes again...for the gov't to "step in" to help is the antithesis, IMO, to the free market...or, if the market is not free, as some may suggest, then this gov't interference is going well over the line, IMO......let's just say that we have strayed way too far from the Jeffersonian ideal of limited gov't, and I am upset at Bush and Obama...just like regulation, how much is too much???...what you think is "enough" I think is "extremely excessive"...can anyone resurrect Thomas Jefferson so we can ask him for his thoughts???
Hope you are correct! Perhaps I'm just a pessimist. Or a realist.
If problems like that occur then the UAW worries will fade into insignificance.
We're not hearing much about how the rank and file are handling the GM/C situation. Are they worried, keeping it to themselves, militant, resigned, what? Does anybody know?
I like the snow for about 3 months November (For Deer Hunting) December & January (holidays) and after that I start getting tired of it. This past winter was beginning to wear on everyone I knew here in Michigan.
Not to direct this specifically at you, but being successful sometimes means making tough choices. The smarter of the UAW should have seen the current situation brewing for at least the last 5-10 years. They would have been working on saving and gaining additional skills. They would also need to show flexibility in where they are willing to relocate. Those who are not as prepared are going to suffer the most.
We are all so spoiled in this country. I see it in my kids all the time.
I heard a quote once about the cultures of Aztec and Mayan populations: "life was short, brutal, and miserable".
We have TVs, full tummys, shelter, internet, can fly across the continent in 5 hours. We complain about cold hands, enough union pay, and coach seats. Life is REALLY good.
" The smarter of the UAW should have seen the current situation brewing for at least the last 5-10 years. They would have been working on saving and gaining additional skills. They would also need to show flexibility in where they are willing to relocate. Those who are not as prepared are going to suffer the most."
This is something I wish I said...I know I spend much time railing against the UAW and their mindset, but, really, some of them should have seen the writing on the wall...they could see their comrades being laid off permanently, plants closing, and lost market share...they HAVE to know that GM does not sell as many cars as they used to sell...even tho the UAW does not blame themselves (whereas I do) that is immaterial...let them blame mgmt, but they STILL have to see that jobs are evaporating and they will need to DO SOMETHING...why didn't they take some time to re-train in anything???...they seem to have acted like the person who was too lazy to reach for a life preserver when the boat was sinking, and they simply drowned due to sheer inability to react...
That would mean the membership would be down. Their leadership was telling them "Hold on - they have money, we will get it for you". I'm pretty sure there are still plenty of people amongst them who believe there are vaults full of gold and precious stones in GM HQ basement and the union's job was to tap into it.
Ernie Mailhot was a ramp worker and cleaner at Eastern Airlines and a "strike staff coordinator for International Association of Machinists Local Lodge 1018 from December 1989 to December 1990." He declared the demise of Eastern Airlines to be a "victory" for all union workers everywhere...
'Do we have a battery plant here in the U.S. that could build them gagrice??? Barry said the batteries for these plug-ins were going to be built here didn't he??? Is GM, planning on in the near future buying from U.S, suppliers????"
The cells are to be made over seas and the actual battery pack is to be assembled in MI. From what I have read, LG could provide what they needed now while A123 would have to ramp up to get what GM needed. A huge risk for a car that might make or break GM if GM makes it through the next 2 years. Also LG has quite a bit of experience already with batteries for hybrids and from what I understand are warrantying the battery themselves which is huge liability lifted from GM.
Back to UAW, even though I am pretty anti-union I have no problem with unions being used to negotiate wages, safety issues etc. I have beef with public service unions but that is a different story. My big issue is when they try to dictate how the business is run or limit how efficiently a business is run.
A classic example of this that I have seen is bar coded inventory management. This makes inventory management automated and super efficient. However the union fought it tooth and nail. Why because the cushiest and best paying job was the guy wandering around with a clip board writing down the inventory.
French labor tensions rise after worker rampage Published: 4/22/09, 1:26 PM EDT By ANGELA CHARLTON
PARIS (AP) - French automotive workers hurled floor lamps at windows and stomped on furniture as despair over the economic downturn took a violent turn.
"Unacceptable," government officials said Wednesday of the rampage by workers at a factory north of Paris and nearby regional government offices. Officials are looking increasingly overwhelmed by protests that have engulfed France in recent weeks as the nation faces its worst economic outlook in 30 years.
Workers have locked up their bosses. They have blocked production of Toyota Yaris cars and deliveries to key oil terminals. They've burned tires at protests and marched on the capital to ask for government help.
Most of the acts have been non-violent. But on Tuesday, workers from a factory run by German auto parts maker Continental AG exploded in anger after a court north of Paris refused to forbid the company from shutting down the site next year.
They smashed windows at the factory in Clairoix and at a regional administrative office in nearby Compiegne, pulling up lamps and crushing desks and cabinets. While strikes and protests are common among French workers, this kind of outburst is rare.
"In the industrial sector, labor relations have always been more conflictual than in other social segments," said Laurent Willemez, sociologist at the University of Poitiers. And since industry is particularly hard hit by the current crisis, the conflicts are more intense than elsewhere, he said.
He joined many in saying the economic downturn has merely set alight a tinderbox of worker frustrations that had been smoldering for years. Even before the crisis, French workers had seen jobs sent overseas and social protections diminish as governments sought to make the economy more flexible and competitive.
France's economy hasn't been hit as hard as some by recession - Prime Minister Francois Fillon predicted a 2.5 percent contraction this year - but French workers have been more vocal about protesting than most in Europe. While France's union membership rate is low, labor unions wield significant influence on government policy and company management in certain sectors, and non-union workers often join strikes and other protests.
Continental's case has drawn nationwide attention. Citing the steep drop in demand in the automobile sector, Continental announced in March plans to shutter the factory in Clairoix, north of Paris, which employs 1,120.
On Wednesday, factory management suspended production because of the damage wrought by protesters. Workers agreed to hold government-mediated talks with management April 29 over conditions of the factory's closure.
The incident prompted political hand-wringing on the left and right.
The prime minister criticized what he called a small minority of "very violent" workers who are hijacking peaceful union mediation efforts.
Budget Minister Eric Woerth called the sacking of the regional administration "unacceptable."
"To go ransack the state's property when the state is the only recourse for all of these employees, it's rather paradoxical," he said. "This needs to stop."
On the left, Socialist Party spokesman Benoit Hamon said the root of the violence was "inadmissible behavior by employers."
Communist Party leader Marie-George Buffet said workers "are obliged to use means that they themselves regret." She said, "When you are in front of a wall, it is despair that speaks out."
Signs of a hardening were appearing on the employers' side as well.
The French subsidiary of American automotive company Molex filed a lawsuit for sequestration after two bosses were held for two days by angry workers - a departure from past "bossnapping" cases, when managers and workers agreed to keep the affair in-house and avoid going to court.
Do we have a battery plant here in the U.S. that could build them gagrice??? Barry said the batteries for these plug-ins were going to be built here didn't he??? Is GM, planning on in the near future buying from U.S, suppliers???
Nope --Not at UAW wages they won't. If they can't make a profit now with 50% of the parts made in U.S. How do you think they can, if GM stopped making and assembling the other 50% in China and India.
Most U.S. GM plants to face temporary shutdown Updated: Wed Apr. 22 2009 5:32:12 PM
The Associated Press
DETROIT — Two people briefed on the plan say General Motors Corp. will close most of its U.S. factories for up to nine weeks this summer because of slumping sales and growing inventories of unsold vehicles.
The people did not know exactly when the shutdowns would occur, but both say they will include the normal two-week closure in July to change from one model year to the next.
They were told in 2007 they were turning the corner
Wagoner was lying to the workers. It did not take a smart person to see GM bleeding red ink on every report. They lost about $20B when we sold 17 million cars in 2007. Wagoner is a big fat liar. Wall street had nothing to do with GM going broke. You cannot put out crap for 20 years and survive. Even if you are the biggest. You should have known the end was near for your beloved GM & UAW when they sold control of GMAC. The only entity they had showing a profit. If Delphi was making a profit in 2004 they would not have filed for bankruptcy in 2005. It was the UAW that sank Delphi and it has now trickled down to GM.
Hopefully they will produce everything here at some juncture
The best bet is when those factories are shut down, they will never open again. It will make BK easier with most of the UAW on unemployment. It will probably bankrupt the state of Michigan trying to feed that many people off work. Unlike CA, it is mighty cold living in a tent city in the Winter. My old bosses wife told me about her first year teaching school in an Eskimo village. It was in the early 1980s. They had double walled tents for classrooms at 40 below Zero. Everyone in parkas to keep sort of warm.
The UAW isn't nearly as militant as some unions in foreign countries but our fellow members on here think the UAW is the evil empire.
I just think they have had horrible leadership since Reuther. They built up wages and benefits to an unsustainable level. Now the workers will suffer. And the leaders will be sitting fat with their UAW Pension that is probably very well funded. Crooks that should be in jail with Madoff.
Once again, I think you struck a chord (I wish I had your insight)...if the plants close for 9 weeks due to overproduction (rocky, who is going to buy these cars, and why should people be employed to make cars no one is buying?), that would be the perfect time to file Chapter 11...after seeing the crap in France (Citing the steep drop in demand in the automobile sector, Continental announced in March plans to shutter the factory in Clairoix, north of Paris, which employs 1,120...same UAW mentality, they think they have a Divine Right to be paid even tho the compnay is not selling tires...who are they to protest the compnay shutting a plant when they do not make money at the plant???) it would be better to wait while they are ALL on unemployment, no stupid violence and no hanging work injury cases since no one was working...wait until the 8th week of the 9 week shutdown, most comp injuries have to be reported in 30/60 days depending on the state...once the 60 days is up, close the plant and nobody can fake work comp injuries...brilliant...
You are right about Wagoner, he was lying thru his teeth...GM has lost almost as much money as Fannie and Freddie, when the market sold 17 million cars...to sit there and say they were turning the corner is beyond the pale, and to believe it was beyond dumb...now we are here...
rocky...you think that no one will buy a car from a BK company...maybe you are right, but with the well publicized problems of GM, do you really think people see them now as stable, and willing to buy???...with all the talk of the lack of UAW concessions, Fiat and Chrysler, etc., you REALLY think that a Ch 11 will actually send anybody away that isn't ALREADY being sent away now???
Eastern Airlines cartoon, that pretty much sums up what the UAW is doing the the Big 3...how no one can see that is beyond me...
rocky, I have it figured out...the UAW will survive, but the Big 3 will not...so, they will still have their union halls to go to, the golf course to play in, but no one will be employed...they will pat themselves on the back forever, yelling out how they stuck together when the world was against them, and all lost their jobs as one...I have spoken of their stupidity, and this only adds fuel to MY fire...they simply do not, and will not, get it...and how they will claim victory when none of them is working is beyond me...and don't hand me this "solidarity" crap...they still are overpaid and underskilled, and they can, and will, be replaced, easily and quickly...
This was all seen coming since 1981. 80% of all current UAW workers were not even working at GM back in 1981. They were told when they arrived that GM is out to screw them and here is what you gotta do to make it as painful as possible for GM to make each step of the screw job be taken. After it was written that the US auto industry was going on the same curve as the depreciation of a new car, very few took the trouble to educate or train themselves in some alternate line of work. That could always be an option with a small piece of the super buyout bonus they'ed get upon layoff, was the thought. If they were going to go through all the trouble to retrain themselves in night school, well they'd just forgo a dollar an hour of wages if it ever came to the threat of actually losing their job, and all would be restored.
Kokomo was featured on cnn.money today. A town of 45000 people with 40% working in the auto industry with an average union job income of $60,000. The town overall has a per capita income of $20,000. Seems like these towns in the midwest are totally supported by the auto industry. Some on here say "let the entire town fall off a cliff". 45,000 people will have major problems when the last few plants shut down. Those 40% union workers probably pay 95% of the taxes and keep 75% of all businesses alive in Kokomo. If it fall off, this isn't the fault of anyone in particular, it is 'customers on strike'. That could be what a mom can tell her daughter as the reason there is no food to eat. Well, you know, CR has the accord as 1% better than the GM competitor, so there are no GM sales this decade, and dad has yet to land that job at Quik-e-Mart now that unemployment has run out. Some say "well don't move to Kokomo". I say that about Juarez.
WOW!!!!! I'm speechless with your past couple of posts.
Of course you are. When you make idols of men, especially crooks like Wagoner, Reuther, Hoffa etc etc, you are crushed when you find they were all lying to the sheep working for them. Tell me how Reuther's UAW will help all those that are laid off because they are not worth the wages the UAW got for them? Tell me one big hit that made lots of money for GM stock holders while Wagoner was CEO?
Wagoner was a no good [non-permissible content removed]. All the UAW leaders are and were crooks. UAW workers are lazy, dumb, evil doers that have a entitlement attitude and sweep floors when they aren't drunk, drugged, or sleeping on the job. Got it!!!
-Rocky
P.S. Hoffa was a ruthless killing mobster right and cared about no one but himself? :sick:
"When you make idols of men, especially crooks like Wagoner, Reuther, Hoffa etc etc, you are crushed when you find they were all lying to the sheep working for them."...rocky, you have criticized the "sheeple" for more posts than I can count...the actual, ignorant "sheeple" are your union people following the instructions of the idiots who led them, literally led them, down the path of sheer foolishness...they had a well-paid gravy train, paying them far in excess of the intrinsic value of the unskilled work they performed, yet they thought they could push for even more, as though there was no breaking point...
The rubber band has finally broken and there is no more "flexibility"...rather than be satisfied as the highest paid but lowest skilled workers out there, like a drug addict, they simply could not stop, and they went for more...like the previous poster said, now the CUSTOMERS are on strike, and now their precious little UAW jobs are about to disappear and they are about to find out what their "skills" are REALLY worth, and it will not be pretty...
Sadly, they will come home each night from job interviews, and they will lament that no one offers them more than $10-12/hour, and wonder where all the "good jobs" went...they killed the goose that laid the golden eggs and, 10 years from now, them and their kids will STILL be too self-centered to see it...they will go to their graves wondering why floorsweepers in Home Depot or WalMart don't make $60K per year with benefits...when compared with their skill level, they were probably the highest paid people in the USA, and they thinkl they are still worth twice as much...they aren't, they weren't, and they won't be...
Nobody, esp the UAW leaders, ever told the "mindless sheeple" that their pay level was so far above their actual worth and that maybe, just maybe, they ought to just enjoy what they have...the "sheeple" are your people, mindless UAW people who believed the lies they were told (of course installing doors is worth $100K a year with overtime) and are ACTUALLY surprised that they are not...somebody needs to tell them that Alice is Wonderland was a fairy tale and so were their payscales...welcome to Reality...they are about to learn what unskilled labor is REALLY worth, and it won't be pretty...
Checked out that page, BTW...if that was the photo we were waiting for, maybe next time could do better...I was expecting to truly understand why she sold so many cars, and I found nothing to help me in that goal...I have enough trouble keeping up and posting with these topics...adding this "carspace" thing would drive me nuts, but thanks for offering...how do you people do it???...BTW, I have the same question for people with MySpace and Facebook and Twitter...who has the time to post to all these things and still live their lives???...which probably means that I am just a grumpy old man who does not see the value in posting one line twitters about my day...I tell Marsha (the real one) about my day, I cannot believe that anyone else would care, especially a 30 minute breakdown of my day...who can post that much, and whose life is that empty to want to do so???
Comments
Agree.
I think Japan tried to mix socialism with capitalism, with reasonable success. Here is how it worked :
1. Do not have a big difference between the successful and the unsuccessful. So in the Texas Tech example, it would be something like "The results will be averaged out, but the top 10% will get a grade above the average"
2. There would be an informal system of identifying who the laggards were, and social pressure ("You are pulling everyone else down") would be brought to bear on them.
This is the reason why a city like Tokyo (with its huge population density) can be spotlessly clean (even though there are no fines against littering / graffiti). Everyone is taught that littering is bad because it causes inconvenience ("meiwaku") to others. So even if I don't care about dirty streets, I don't litter since there are others who care and I do not want to create meiwaku for them.
But this system is also unravelling - because it did not produce any Microsofts or Googles for Japan (though one may argue it did not produce any Enron or Worldcom's either...). American capitalism was seen to be the undisputed winner - Till the events of the last six months.....
The ONLY cars to buy in America that are acuually made in America all have names like Toy Hon.
The only jobs Americans need in the auto industry are not the ones you need to send you children to college to get.
The trillion dollars a year of defecit spending the government now does MUST not include a few billion as a loan to the auto industry.
I have a St. Catherines built Silverado that has parts in it that were developed in the US. How did that happen? Must be a glitch in the theory.
With all this Asians adding jobs stuff going on, why is the economy headed down?
By the way, I have a Master's degree in Physics. Rocky's statement that Cold Fusion is being demonstrated on TV means that I wasted all that time (getting the degree).
The sad part is it's NOT the flaw in capitalism, it's a HUMAN flaw. Another quote from Inamori:
".....From the Eastern viewpoint, profits should be pursued for the good of society, and not only for one's self. There is the principle of "enough is enough," that one's greed should be contained."
That's too bad that some feel that way over there. I like this Inamori's Altruistic approach to things.
They did a show on it Sunday and it was proven real without any doubts now.
Please send me a link. I highly doubt it. There has been lots of talk and efforts but never proven. If and when it is REALLY proven it will be huge news. Has not happened. Keep on hoping.
After years of being berated (mainly by the US media and analysts) for pussyfooting with a half and half of socialism and capitalism, and being regularly given the example of Google and Goldman Sachs, we finally decided to go for a more capitalism driven model, and put up with the associated ills (higher income disparity, unraveling of the system I described in my previous post etc). And now it turns out that a lot of the "value" generated by the star driven model we were aspiring for did not exist in the first place (did Citibank and Merrill ever make any money?).
But at least I am convinced that a backlash to socialism is not going to work either - I would like the pendulum to stop in the middle (where it used to be), but pendulums, governed by law of physics as they are, will swing....
Inamori became a monk, and donated his wealth to charities. Somewhat different mindset from Dick Fuld and Co. But he is a very impressive speaker.
I visited and I approve.
I'd like to see a photo of that sales technique, too. You can send the compliment. :P
Please send me a link. I highly doubt it.
Your problem is (as is mine) - You studied science in the university. I did not see this program on 60 min, but with this 60 min has lost some credibility with me....
A physicist who actually saw the program has this to say "As an energy technologist, however, I didn’t see anything that would suggest we’re going to see some big game changer anytime soon — and the featured scientist/advocate was guilty of some particularly unconvincing and counterproductive hype. I’d say cold fusion may have moved from junk science to the realm of hydrogen or fusion — decades away, at best, but possibly never very useful
Here is the link
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009770.html
By the way, the latest fusion technology still requires 100x more energy input than the output - And the fusion is delivered by high powered laser bursts, so lasts only for a billionth of a second or so. And it is not cold at all (the temperature required is actually even higher than what exists at the core of the sun).
Apologies for car fans for this digression - but I find it hard to keep quite when there are some factual misstatements being made....especially in an area where I ahve some knowledge....
This is a tough one. One thing we humans should learn is that when we think we understand something we often don't.....so I'm not fully convinced the warming is caused by CO2.... but if it IS, we are in trouble. So here are two alternatives:
1 - Global warming is more of a normal long term cycle we don't understand (my guess... 30% probability)
2 - Global warming is caused by fossil fuels burning and releasing CO2, or other particulates and gases of human origin (my guess... 70% probability).
If 1) is correct, then all the caps, etc. may be a waste of time and money. But do you want to risk it?
If 2) is correct, then we are probably screwed. I strongly doubt that the human race will have the will power and foresight to make an extremely aggressive and meaningful dent in the problem in a quick enough time frame. We are probably already nearly to the point of no return. Fossil fuel usage is still growing and China/India have huge and growing appetites for the lifestyle we already enjoy in the "first world" countries. Some combination of less energy use in the world (fat chance) and carbon sequestration and/or alternative energy sources would be needed. It's going to take 10-30 years for that. So the amount of additional CO2 that will be generated while we wait..... you see the problem.
The course is set. The question is what gets us (humans, not just Americans) first? - disease, global warming, water shortage, lack of energy, lack of other resources.... or war exacerbated by one of these?
I don't mean to be pessimistic, but the UAW and globalization are pretty small problems in comparison. Hope I'm wrong.
-Rocky
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-10223427-76.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1- _3-0-20
The above is the story I watched. I have believed in this energy source for many years now. I guess when you work with some of the smartest human beings in the world for 6 years you learn a few things.
Cold Fusion Is Hot Again
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/17/60minutes/main4952167.shtml?source=RSS- attr=SciTech_4952167
Same story but from CBS
-Rocky
"A wasted opportunity," Fleischmann replied.
He thinks this way because it was discredited at the time.
He told Pelley he has two regrets: calling the nuclear effect "fusion," a name coined by a competitor, and having that news conference, something he says the University of Utah wanted.
"Now that you know that your experiments have been replicated and, and improved upon in labs all over the world I wonder, do you see a day when homes will be powered by these cells, when cars will be powered by these cells?" Pelley asked.
"I think so. It wouldn’t take very long to implement this," Fleischman replied, laughing. "You make me feel that I should take a part in this?"
Will this 60 minutes piece expose the process to peer review and kill it as in 1989?
The bottom line, it will not help GM or the UAW. Wagoner and Klutz killed GM research 10 years ago into electric vehicles. Taking a couple $billion tax dollars and crushing the experimental EV-1. The very least they should have done was sell the cars to people for experimentation. Just like so called "Fusion" was crippled by naysayers, GM set US made EVs back at least a decade. Now the Japanese, Italians, French, Norwegians, Chinese and Indians are way out ahead of the USA, thanks to your hero Wagoner.
Look at May, 2009 issue of National Geographic, pages 118 and 119. Boom town of Hammerfest, Norway has workers pouring in from 42 countries to fill jobs relating to production of liquified natural gas. Hammerfest is above Arctic Circle.
Maybe anyone that is fit, youngish, willing to work hard - and perhaps Norweigan heritage could be a plus - can find opportunity there. Don't know whether any unions, such as UAW or Teamsters, were organized to work at Snohvit, the company that is processing the gas.
You and I must of watched two different shows. Yes there was objective points of views. I think billion$ should be spent on R&D regarding Cold Fusion. It is the one energy source worth taking the risk. Windmills aren't going to save us. I think you can agree with me, eh???
The bottom line, it will not help GM or the UAW.
Instead of people dumping money into the pockets of Big Oil they might drive a lot more via Cold Fusion thus causing vehicles to wear out faster and buying new ones more often.
Wagoner and Klutz killed GM research 10 years ago into electric vehicles.
Yeah it was a mistake.
The very least they should have done was sell the cars to people for experimentation. Just like so called "Fusion" was crippled by naysayers, GM set US made EVs back at least a decade. Now the Japanese, Italians, French, Norwegians, Chinese and Indians are way out ahead of the USA, thanks to your hero Wagoner.
What they learned from the EV1 has been applied to the Volt. If they are so far behind why will the Volt be the worlds first plug-in hybrid??? :P The 2-Mode hybrid battery pack is the best on the market. :P Gagrice, you really need to stop some of your ranting and take a look at the big picture pal.
-Rocky
-Rocky
If 2) is correct, then we are probably screwed. I strongly doubt that the human race will have the will power and foresight to make an extremely aggressive and meaningful dent in the problem in a quick enough time frame.
Hold on. Don't underestimate human ingenuity. Yesterday's WSJ had article on page D3 whereby "Royal Dutch Shell plans to dispose of millions of tons of carbon dioxide deep below the surface of the earth. Shell will transport CO2 from its Pernis oil refinery near Rotterdam in the Netherlands to Barendrecht, where CO2 will be compressed and injected into the earth 2-3 kilometers past the nonpermeable caprock layer."
Locals (1300) in town of Barendrecht are trying to block the plan. Nothing said in article about whether or not the locals formed a (formal) union to move their message to the city council and then to Shell.
Nope. I have no idea where you got that??? Please go re read my posts. :confuse:
Also, working above the Arctic Circle will build character and will allow the gathering of many stories to tell the grandkids.
I like the snow for about 3 months November (For Deer Hunting) December & January (holidays) and after that I start getting tired of it. This past winter was beginning to wear on everyone I knew here in Michigan.
We have a colleague on this board that could provide tips, the main one would be to not agitate to form any unions when there.
I wouldn't be able to help myself. I assume they are already unionized though.
-Rocky
Well said!!!
-Rocky
Hardly the first. In fact one of the companies in the USA that bid on building batteries for the Volt, A123 has converted dozens of Prius to plug-in hybrids. I consider the concept flawed. I would rather have a pure EV. Not a lot of crap to go bad as in hybrids. You have to ask yourself why did GM decide to use Korean Li-Ion Cells instead of US made batteries? Probably comes down to labor costs. Though I would not bet that A123 does not get their cells from China or elsewhere.
hope you enjoy your Canadian Chevy, you likely did more damage to the US economy buying it than had you bought a Texas built Tundra.
And then we float GM billions of dollars of our tax money so they can build trucks in freaking Canada!
Something wrong with this picture. :sick:
-Rocky
I still wonder why so many are against a GM Chapter 11...if they aren't selling enough cars, all their suppliers are in trouble anyway, but Ch 11 just allows them to use the law to reduce their debt...without Ch 11, they will, simply, default on their debt to their suppliers, and either way the suppliers are in trouble...so, if the outcome is the same, why not let GM wipe the slate clean and start all over again, smaller, leaner, and without the anchor of the UAW dragging them down
All those against bankruptcy act as tho GM will be restored to its former size and all the suppliers will be paid...the money isn't there, and suppliers will get the shaft anyway...sad, but true...just like my bankruptcy clients...you cannot get vlood from a turnip, so bankruptcy just lets them start over...either way, creditors are not going to be paid if there is no money...
So all you that keep harping on the "ripple effect" of a GM Ch 11, just their downsizing alone, making fewer cars, is causing the ripple effect...there is no difference...if Saabs and Saturns don't sell, what do you expect GM to do, keep buying parts and paying creditors for cars that do not sell???...are you THAT brainwashed by UAW entitlement thinking that you think money grows on trees???
About that article from the Kyocera guy...when he said that capitalism just needed some help (poor paraphrasing) and when it is over we will return to a free market system, that, to me, was the problem...the free market would have washed out the trash and we would rise from the ashes again...for the gov't to "step in" to help is the antithesis, IMO, to the free market...or, if the market is not free, as some may suggest, then this gov't interference is going well over the line, IMO......let's just say that we have strayed way too far from the Jeffersonian ideal of limited gov't, and I am upset at Bush and Obama...just like regulation, how much is too much???...what you think is "enough" I think is "extremely excessive"...can anyone resurrect Thomas Jefferson so we can ask him for his thoughts???
Hope you are correct! Perhaps I'm just a pessimist. Or a realist.
If problems like that occur then the UAW worries will fade into insignificance.
We're not hearing much about how the rank and file are handling the GM/C situation. Are they worried, keeping it to themselves, militant, resigned, what? Does anybody know?
Not to direct this specifically at you, but being successful sometimes means making tough choices. The smarter of the UAW should have seen the current situation brewing for at least the last 5-10 years. They would have been working on saving and gaining additional skills. They would also need to show flexibility in where they are willing to relocate. Those who are not as prepared are going to suffer the most.
We are all so spoiled in this country. I see it in my kids all the time.
I heard a quote once about the cultures of Aztec and Mayan populations: "life was short, brutal, and miserable".
We have TVs, full tummys, shelter, internet, can fly across the continent in 5 hours. We complain about cold hands, enough union pay, and coach seats. Life is REALLY good.
This is something I wish I said...I know I spend much time railing against the UAW and their mindset, but, really, some of them should have seen the writing on the wall...they could see their comrades being laid off permanently, plants closing, and lost market share...they HAVE to know that GM does not sell as many cars as they used to sell...even tho the UAW does not blame themselves (whereas I do) that is immaterial...let them blame mgmt, but they STILL have to see that jobs are evaporating and they will need to DO SOMETHING...why didn't they take some time to re-train in anything???...they seem to have acted like the person who was too lazy to reach for a life preserver when the boat was sinking, and they simply drowned due to sheer inability to react...
Why?????????????????????????????????????
That would mean the membership would be down. Their leadership was telling them "Hold on - they have money, we will get it for you". I'm pretty sure there are still plenty of people amongst them who believe there are vaults full of gold and precious stones in GM HQ basement and the union's job was to tap into it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Worth the short read...
Ernie Mailhot was a ramp worker and cleaner at Eastern Airlines and a "strike staff coordinator for International Association of Machinists Local Lodge 1018 from December 1989 to December 1990." He declared the demise of Eastern Airlines to be a "victory" for all union workers everywhere...
http://www.airlinesafety.com/Unions/UnionVictoryAtEastern.htm
Below is a link to the entire original article by Ernie Mailhot.
http://www.themilitant.com/1998/6233/6233_26.html
The cells are to be made over seas and the actual battery pack is to be assembled in MI. From what I have read, LG could provide what they needed now while A123 would have to ramp up to get what GM needed. A huge risk for a car that might make or break GM if GM makes it through the next 2 years. Also LG has quite a bit of experience already with batteries for hybrids and from what I understand are warrantying the battery themselves which is huge liability lifted from GM.
Back to UAW, even though I am pretty anti-union I have no problem with unions being used to negotiate wages, safety issues etc. I have beef with public service unions but that is a different story. My big issue is when they try to dictate how the business is run or limit how efficiently a business is run.
A classic example of this that I have seen is bar coded inventory management. This makes inventory management automated and super efficient. However the union fought it tooth and nail. Why because the cushiest and best paying job was the guy wandering around with a clip board writing down the inventory.
Stomps
French labor tensions rise after worker rampage
Published: 4/22/09, 1:26 PM EDT
By ANGELA CHARLTON
PARIS (AP) - French automotive workers hurled floor lamps at windows and stomped on furniture as despair over the economic downturn took a violent turn.
"Unacceptable," government officials said Wednesday of the rampage by workers at a factory north of Paris and nearby regional government offices. Officials are looking increasingly overwhelmed by protests that have engulfed France in recent weeks as the nation faces its worst economic outlook in 30 years.
Workers have locked up their bosses. They have blocked production of Toyota Yaris cars and deliveries to key oil terminals. They've burned tires at protests and marched on the capital to ask for government help.
Most of the acts have been non-violent. But on Tuesday, workers from a factory run by German auto parts maker Continental AG exploded in anger after a court north of Paris refused to forbid the company from shutting down the site next year.
They smashed windows at the factory in Clairoix and at a regional administrative office in nearby Compiegne, pulling up lamps and crushing desks and cabinets. While strikes and protests are common among French workers, this kind of outburst is rare.
"In the industrial sector, labor relations have always been more conflictual than in other social segments," said Laurent Willemez, sociologist at the University of Poitiers. And since industry is particularly hard hit by the current crisis, the conflicts are more intense than elsewhere, he said.
He joined many in saying the economic downturn has merely set alight a tinderbox of worker frustrations that had been smoldering for years. Even before the crisis, French workers had seen jobs sent overseas and social protections diminish as governments sought to make the economy more flexible and competitive.
France's economy hasn't been hit as hard as some by recession - Prime Minister Francois Fillon predicted a 2.5 percent contraction this year - but French workers have been more vocal about protesting than most in Europe. While France's union membership rate is low, labor unions wield significant influence on government policy and company management in certain sectors, and non-union workers often join strikes and other protests.
Continental's case has drawn nationwide attention. Citing the steep drop in demand in the automobile sector, Continental announced in March plans to shutter the factory in Clairoix, north of Paris, which employs 1,120.
On Wednesday, factory management suspended production because of the damage wrought by protesters. Workers agreed to hold government-mediated talks with management April 29 over conditions of the factory's closure.
The incident prompted political hand-wringing on the left and right.
The prime minister criticized what he called a small minority of "very violent" workers who are hijacking peaceful union mediation efforts.
Budget Minister Eric Woerth called the sacking of the regional administration "unacceptable."
"To go ransack the state's property when the state is the only recourse for all of these employees, it's rather paradoxical," he said. "This needs to stop."
On the left, Socialist Party spokesman Benoit Hamon said the root of the violence was "inadmissible behavior by employers."
Communist Party leader Marie-George Buffet said workers "are obliged to use means that they themselves regret." She said, "When you are in front of a wall, it is despair that speaks out."
Signs of a hardening were appearing on the employers' side as well.
The French subsidiary of American automotive company Molex filed a lawsuit for sequestration after two bosses were held for two days by angry workers - a departure from past "bossnapping" cases, when managers and workers agreed to keep the affair in-house and avoid going to court.
Nope --Not at UAW wages they won't. If they can't make a profit now with 50% of the parts made in U.S. How do you think they can, if GM stopped making and assembling the other 50% in China and India.
Updated: Wed Apr. 22 2009 5:32:12 PM
The Associated Press
DETROIT — Two people briefed on the plan say General Motors Corp. will close most of its U.S. factories for up to nine weeks this summer because of slumping sales and growing inventories of unsold vehicles.
The people did not know exactly when the shutdowns would occur, but both say they will include the normal two-week closure in July to change from one model
year to the next.
Regards,
OW
-Rocky
Wagoner was lying to the workers. It did not take a smart person to see GM bleeding red ink on every report. They lost about $20B when we sold 17 million cars in 2007. Wagoner is a big fat liar. Wall street had nothing to do with GM going broke. You cannot put out crap for 20 years and survive. Even if you are the biggest. You should have known the end was near for your beloved GM & UAW when they sold control of GMAC. The only entity they had showing a profit. If Delphi was making a profit in 2004 they would not have filed for bankruptcy in 2005. It was the UAW that sank Delphi and it has now trickled down to GM.
The best bet is when those factories are shut down, they will never open again. It will make BK easier with most of the UAW on unemployment. It will probably bankrupt the state of Michigan trying to feed that many people off work. Unlike CA, it is mighty cold living in a tent city in the Winter. My old bosses wife told me about her first year teaching school in an Eskimo village. It was in the early 1980s. They had double walled tents for classrooms at 40 below Zero. Everyone in parkas to keep sort of warm.
The UAW isn't nearly as militant as some unions in foreign countries but our fellow members on here think the UAW is the evil empire.
I just think they have had horrible leadership since Reuther. They built up wages and benefits to an unsustainable level. Now the workers will suffer. And the leaders will be sitting fat with their UAW Pension that is probably very well funded. Crooks that should be in jail with Madoff.
-Rocky
You are right about Wagoner, he was lying thru his teeth...GM has lost almost as much money as Fannie and Freddie, when the market sold 17 million cars...to sit there and say they were turning the corner is beyond the pale, and to believe it was beyond dumb...now we are here...
rocky...you think that no one will buy a car from a BK company...maybe you are right, but with the well publicized problems of GM, do you really think people see them now as stable, and willing to buy???...with all the talk of the lack of UAW concessions, Fiat and Chrysler, etc., you REALLY think that a Ch 11 will actually send anybody away that isn't ALREADY being sent away now???
rocky, I have it figured out...the UAW will survive, but the Big 3 will not...so, they will still have their union halls to go to, the golf course to play in, but no one will be employed...they will pat themselves on the back forever, yelling out how they stuck together when the world was against them, and all lost their jobs as one...I have spoken of their stupidity, and this only adds fuel to MY fire...they simply do not, and will not, get it...and how they will claim victory when none of them is working is beyond me...and don't hand me this "solidarity" crap...they still are overpaid and underskilled, and they can, and will, be replaced, easily and quickly...
Kokomo was featured on cnn.money today. A town of 45000 people with 40% working in the auto industry with an average union job income of $60,000. The town overall has a per capita income of $20,000. Seems like these towns in the midwest are totally supported by the auto industry. Some on here say "let the entire town fall off a cliff". 45,000 people will have major problems when the last few plants shut down. Those 40% union workers probably pay 95% of the taxes and keep 75% of all businesses alive in Kokomo. If it fall off, this isn't the fault of anyone in particular, it is 'customers on strike'. That could be what a mom can tell her daughter as the reason there is no food to eat. Well, you know, CR has the accord as 1% better than the GM competitor, so there are no GM sales this decade, and dad has yet to land that job at Quik-e-Mart now that unemployment has run out. Some say "well don't move to Kokomo". I say that about Juarez.
Of course you are. When you make idols of men, especially crooks like Wagoner, Reuther, Hoffa etc etc, you are crushed when you find they were all lying to the sheep working for them. Tell me how Reuther's UAW will help all those that are laid off because they are not worth the wages the UAW got for them? Tell me one big hit that made lots of money for GM stock holders while Wagoner was CEO?
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. Saw that you visited me.
-Rocky
-Rocky
P.S. Hoffa was a ruthless killing mobster right and cared about no one but himself? :sick:
"When you make idols of men, especially crooks like Wagoner, Reuther, Hoffa etc etc, you are crushed when you find they were all lying to the sheep working for them."...rocky, you have criticized the "sheeple" for more posts than I can count...the actual, ignorant "sheeple" are your union people following the instructions of the idiots who led them, literally led them, down the path of sheer foolishness...they had a well-paid gravy train, paying them far in excess of the intrinsic value of the unskilled work they performed, yet they thought they could push for even more, as though there was no breaking point...
The rubber band has finally broken and there is no more "flexibility"...rather than be satisfied as the highest paid but lowest skilled workers out there, like a drug addict, they simply could not stop, and they went for more...like the previous poster said, now the CUSTOMERS are on strike, and now their precious little UAW jobs are about to disappear and they are about to find out what their "skills" are REALLY worth, and it will not be pretty...
Sadly, they will come home each night from job interviews, and they will lament that no one offers them more than $10-12/hour, and wonder where all the "good jobs" went...they killed the goose that laid the golden eggs and, 10 years from now, them and their kids will STILL be too self-centered to see it...they will go to their graves wondering why floorsweepers in Home Depot or WalMart don't make $60K per year with benefits...when compared with their skill level, they were probably the highest paid people in the USA, and they thinkl they are still worth twice as much...they aren't, they weren't, and they won't be...
Nobody, esp the UAW leaders, ever told the "mindless sheeple" that their pay level was so far above their actual worth and that maybe, just maybe, they ought to just enjoy what they have...the "sheeple" are your people, mindless UAW people who believed the lies they were told (of course installing doors is worth $100K a year with overtime) and are ACTUALLY surprised that they are not...somebody needs to tell them that Alice is Wonderland was a fairy tale and so were their payscales...welcome to Reality...they are about to learn what unskilled labor is REALLY worth, and it won't be pretty...
Checked out that page, BTW...if that was the photo we were waiting for, maybe next time could do better...I was expecting to truly understand why she sold so many cars, and I found nothing to help me in that goal...I have enough trouble keeping up and posting with these topics...adding this "carspace" thing would drive me nuts, but thanks for offering...how do you people do it???...BTW, I have the same question for people with MySpace and Facebook and Twitter...who has the time to post to all these things and still live their lives???...which probably means that I am just a grumpy old man who does not see the value in posting one line twitters about my day...I tell Marsha (the real one) about my day, I cannot believe that anyone else would care, especially a 30 minute breakdown of my day...who can post that much, and whose life is that empty to want to do so???