Well the neither the Silver UAW platter or the Golden Teamster platter is out there to obtain and if it is well it is a very small number who get to see it in this day in age.
The handwriting has been on the wall for at least 50 years for all to see. If you did not see it who is to blame for that? I could see when I went to work in 1961 that I had two roads to follow. One was to be the best technician I could be or go back to college. I chose the first and it paid off. I feel for my son who struggles. I tried to get him into the Teamsters. But he was too proud to take a job that way. I am proud of him even though life is very tough. We are all stuck with our own decisions. I prefer that to the Cradle to Grave systems in Europe that are falling apart.
Oh come on. What amount of living costs are made by union made cars? What amount of cars on the road are UAW built and what amount of the housing stock was built by current union members? That's a pretty wild argument. I find it amusing that you encouraged your own son to join a union that is notorious for abuses.
I actually work in telecom, just like you did - but not field based tech work. I have worked in a few offices in my career, and have yet to notice a positive correlation between salary and work. I make more than twice what I did when I started not long after I got out of school, but I don't think I work twice as hard. Director of my department easily makes more than twice as much as me, he doesn't work twice as hard. Sometimes it doesn't seem any different than the old tenure-based union rules, even in the very anti-union corporate world.
I actually work in telecom, just like you did - but not field based tech work. I have worked in a few offices in my career, and have yet to notice a positive correlation between salary and work.
Let's take it a step further - there are just rules of the game. Every society has its rules, many of which are not necessarily fair. I know a guy with 20+ years experience in laboratory analyses, and he also has a 2 year AA degree. Even with all of his experience and hard work, he can't even get his foot in the door to a pile of jobs that would hire a minimum B.S. degree. Is that fair? Perhaps not. But that's the way it goes.
It's not just working harder that earns pay. It's experience. It's seniority (especially in unionized environments). It's education. It's stress. It's the financial impact of the worker's decisions on the company. It's how many years forward those decisions affect the business. You might work hard soldering PC boards and make very little. You might decide the design of the next $700M manufacturing plant. Your designing the plant might be "easier" work than the PC board assembler, but the impact on the company of your doing a good job (or not) is far greater and takes much more responsibility.
And working in telecom? - well don't get me started. I can see why anybody would be cynical working in that industry. One of the more corrupt and anti-competitive. I'm still looking for a way to cut off my telecom providers. I hate being enslaved to limited choices for these markets.
As Fintail, has pointed out many times the European system is better than what we have here. At least over there they have more than two party's. In Europe they are not anti union like over here and respect the right to organize a union. Sadly over here our media and right-wing politicians have made the word "union" seem as bad as a curse word. Goebbels would blush if he could see how easily manipulated the masses are over here in this day in age.
I find it amusing that you encouraged your own son to join a union that is notorious for abuses.
What parent does not want the best possible job for their child? As Tlong stated so well. You play the game the way society dictates. You want to buck it you could lose. Union jobs for the High School graduate or less give the most bang for your back. That does not mean I approve of the protectionism offered by the Unions. The Union lunacy in many places that will not allow an engineer to carry his laptop from one office to the next. And I am totally opposed to Union contracts signed by people that are not paying for those contracts. Such as Public employee Unions.
One of the more corrupt and anti-competitive. I'm still looking for a way to cut off my telecom providers. I hate being enslaved to limited choices for these markets.
You would have hated it when I went into the telephone business. It was a controlled monopoly. Only one choice. Today I have two land line and 4 wireless choices. With long distance virtually free. When I went to work in Alaska in 1970 it cost $2.80 per minute to call CA. When we installed the first Cellular service in the Arctic in 1996 we charged $1.35 per minute. Internet we got $1200 per month for 256kb service. We did not have the capacity to offer anyone a full T cxr. Now everyone expects streaming video on their smartphone for pennies. I expect that service to be going downhill with the massive demand.
the European system is better than what we have here. At least over there they have more than two party's.
There is NO European System. Each country has their own unique system. Germany may have multiple parties as we have. They are dominated by the two major parties since WW2. You are only frustrating yourself hoping that the USA will somehow look like Germany. If you want to study the different EU governments, check out Switzerland. They loosely copied the US constitution. Not sure if they have term limits. It all comes down to whether you want to keep most of what you make and be responsible for your own welfare or give half or more to a government to take care of you. I prefer the freedom to take care of myself. Though we are all sucked into this semi socialist system the USA has devolved into.
Don't think for a minute that Germany does not have their 1%ers. The number of Billionaires in Germany has jumped over the last decade along with the USA.
Don't think for a minute that Germany does not have their 1%ers. The number of Billionaires in Germany has jumped over the last decade along with the USA.
I know that but according to some you can't make money in a well regulated environment or in a socialist leaning country. I guess that debunks there myths, eh?
Germany may have multiple parties as we have.
Huh? Like we have? We have two not six like Germany. Bernie Sanders is (I) even though he leans towards Socialist.
That is why our government needs to be reformed to allow 3rd party's a voice. I would like to see a Multi-party system. Our other political party's have no voice. You have corporate party (A) and corporate party (B).....I would like to see the Socialist Workers Party, Labor Party, Libertarian Party, etc, have a voice in our government!
Multi-party system
Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Taiwan are examples of nations that have used a multi-party system effectively in their democracies. In these countries, usually no single party has a parliamentary majority by itself. Instead, multiple political parties form coalitions for the purpose of developing power blocs for governing.
I didn't know segregation was a recognized religion? Again King was not an elected leader! Your theory of comparison has been debunked so give it a rest and take it like a man!
One more time: Christians imposed their belief -segregation is wrong- on people who opposed integration. A religious belief was incorporated into a law.
he Christians in the South here in the U.S. back during the civil war weren't really Christians? I think history would support me that 99% of people in this country were Christians, no? Not sure about England. I've really never been interested in there history despite having some British heritage (very very small amount)
See my previous answer. I think everyone else in this thread understands my argument. I'm sorry I can't make it any clearer.
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Again, roadburner you are trying to imply that only Christians were against segregation which is simply not true. The Christians in the south were against integration. I can not make that any clearer to you. George Romney (Mitts Dad) was our former governor and the Mormon church (a christian church) wrote George a letter opposing integration here in Michigan. He did not allow his churches beliefs to dictate policy and he did the right thing and actually he had a good relationship with Dr. King and Walter Reuther the former head of the UAW
Letter sent to George Romney from the Mormon Church in 1964
I know that but according to some you can't make money in a well regulated environment or in a socialist leaning country. I guess that debunks there myths, eh?
I think it says just the opposite. A plutocracy can exist within a socialized society. Look at Russia and Putin. He is most likely the wealthiest man on the planet. Just does not brag about his billions. And Russia is a socialist Democracy much like Germany.
I would like to see the Socialist Workers Party, Labor Party, Libertarian Party, etc, have a voice in our government!
I think the strongest 3rd party showed it's strength in the 2010 election. The very loosely organized Tea Party. I think they are best placed to take on the Crony Capitalist in the Dem and Rep parties. Way too many liberals already in our government. The Plutocratic Socialist system we currently have is held together by the overly powerful Public employee UNIONS. They provide some of the largest single campaign cash piles.
The first thing we have to do is to divide NEA into its three components – national, state and local. Though money is extracted from members’ paychecks in one lump sum, its division and destination depend on federal and state laws. NEA’s national headquarters expects to bring in $358 million in 2010-11.
You would think the Koch brothers controlled this country with their lousy $1.7 million spent across the USA in 2010 campaign contributions. Where is your screaming about the NEA trying to control elections???
Oh, don't tell me the "rules of the game" and expect that to be the end of the story. Some of these rules are why we continue to slowly fall behind. Again, no correlation here between work and pay.
Financial impact? BS. The entire bank of knowledge had by the current tenured MBA type is singular - reduce labor costs, reduce all related costs so already overpaid execs can increase their own pay. That's what earns pay - creating more pay for a few others. Experience translates into managing not to be fired. Same for seniority. Education - most of the old timers would be lucky to get an entry level job with theirs...heck, management where I am couldn't get an entry level job in their own office with their credentials. Stress? Haven't seen it, especially when the "high earners" micromanage and keep many one step away from going postal. Remember "Office Space"? It could be a documentary about many corporate jobs.
So what competitive merit based and ethical area do you work in anyway?
The Swiss system is much older than ours. Also has socialized everything. They have issues too - such as making loads of that money from dirty unethical financial activities.
The socio-economic gap in Germany is much less pronounced than here. I'd wager executive compensation is also a far lesser multiplier of worker incomes.
So in other words - it's evil if someone else uses it, but not for my kin. Kind of funny.
Not illegal or evil, Nepotism is the way Unions operate. I would bet it works that way in Germany as well. It has Always been "who you know". As Mayor Daley would say when awarding City Contracts "What Kind of a Man Would Not Look Out for His Own Kin".
The Swiss system is much older than ours.
That is what my Swiss friends would say as well. However their current Constitution was put together in 1848 loosely patterned after ours. Prior to that it was more of a dual Theocracy shared with the Roman Catholics and Protestants. Unlike our civil war they ended up with a whole new constitution following their civil war. I am surprised you did not know that.
They pay for it. You have spent time over there. What keeps you from immigrating if you really believe they have a better system? Or maybe you have it better here than you are letting on?
So... bad for everyone else and a detriment to society in general, but OK if my own blood does it. Got it.
I haven't seen anything about the Swiss actually copying our constitution, but riding a tide of unification and modernity that was sweeping across the area. That kind of enlightened ideal became popular all over Europe in that era, due to what started in France earlier, IMO (and also ideals which were then very "liberal") - although I guess in terms of land mass and maybe population, the US was the pioneer. The French looked after some of their crooked 1%ers pretty well, too.
It's virtually impossible to get into a place like that unless you have an unearned income of 100K+ a year to buy your way in, marry in, are employed by a slimy tax dodging transplant, or make up refugee status to take advantage of the guilt forced on Europe by the one worlders, which has resulted in hilarious and eventually bloody demographics.
I think it says just the opposite. A plutocracy can exist within a socialized society. Look at Russia and Putin. He is most likely the wealthiest man on the planet. Just does not brag about his billions. And Russia is a socialist Democracy much like Germany.
I think if that were the case he would of been on that billionaire list! He is very likely rich but I doubt the richest man in the world is Putin. Also I wouldn't call Russia, a socialist country. It is borderline communist and the people have limited freedoms.
I think the strongest 3rd party showed it's strength in the 2010 election. The very loosely organized Tea Party. I think they are best placed to take on the Crony Capitalist in the Dem and Rep parties.
Are they a registered political party? Last I checked they voted for all radical republican candidates. I'm talking about "real" political party's not some hijacked evangelical fringe movement full of racist bible thumpers! :surprise:
Way too many liberals already in our government. The Plutocratic Socialist system we currently have is held together by the overly powerful Public employee UNIONS. They provide some of the largest single campaign cash piles.
So if unions counter the crony capitalist it is bad? :confuse: There money is pocket change compared to what the crony capitalist spend on elections. Look at the multi millions the Koch brothers are spending in Wisconsin to save Walkers job? I can't wait until they throw that suit out of office!
You would think the Koch brothers controlled this country with their lousy $1.7 million spent across the USA in 2010 campaign contributions.
This is from 2010
VERDICT: When it comes to the combination of institutional lobbying, 527 group donations and PAC expenditures, Koch Industries far out-spends Soros’ hedge fund and think tank, $57.4 million to $12.8 million. Most of this money is attributable to lobbying expenditures.
During the 1990s, faults in Koch Industry pipelines were responsible for more than 300 oil and chemical spills in five states, prompting a landmark penalty of $35 million from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). In Minnesota, it was fined an additional $8 million for discharging oil into streams.
According to an August 30, 2010 article in The New Yorker magazine, "In 1999, a jury found Koch Industries guilty of negligence and malice in the deaths of two Texas teen-agers in an explosion that resulted from a leaky underground butane pipeline. (In 2001, the company paid an undisclosed settlement.)
During the months leading up to the 2000 presidential elections, the company faced even more liability, in the form of a 97-count federal indictment charging it with concealing illegal releases of 91 metric tons of benzene, a known carcinogen, from its refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas. The company faced liability for three hundred and fifty million dollars in fines, and four Koch employees faced up to thirty-five years in prison.
Unions
Public records show that the Kochs gave more than $17 million between 1997 and 2008 to various groups including the Competitive Enterprise Institute, which lobbies for legislation opposing unions.
According to Mother Jones Magazine, Koch Industries' Political Action Committee contributed the second largest donation to Scott Walker's 2010 campaign for governor of Wisconsin.
It's virtually impossible to get into a place like that unless you have an unearned income of 100K+ a year to buy your way in, marry in, are employed by a slimy tax dodging transplant, or make up refugee status to take advantage of the guilt forced on Europe by the one worlders, which has resulted in hilarious and eventually bloody demographics.
So you just can't walk across the border into Germany and apply for a Union job at a Mercedes factory. Or start building homes like here in CA. What kind of Freedom is that. Only for the elitist already in Germany or Switzerland. :P
By the way when I rented a home in Mexico back in 1996 I had to prove I had at least $1500 per month coming in to get a 6 month visa and get the phone and electricity turned on. Socialism may work where you have a closed society. It is bankrupting US covering every Juan, Maria & Miguel that wanders across our wide open borders. And it is the same bleeding heart Liberals in this country that insist we give everyone legal or illegal free health care. The Unions here are not allowed to discriminate based on legal status. Or use E-Verify.
I wouldn't call Mexico, a democracy or socialist! They are a 3rd world country. They run it a lot like a Libertarian utopia! I'm stunned you did not like it there. You have a class of haves and have not's aka serf n' elite society
What that Ayn Rand utopia you embrace isn't quite as breath taking as you thought? You would be a 1% there. You could hire Juan and pay him one dollar an hour since that is all people are worth to you outside of the Arctic Slope in Alaska!!! You wouldn't have to deal with union people and your neighbors that live in caves or shacks down the road from your McMansion I'm sure would clean your house for next to nothing! You should pack your suitcase and load up the Seqouia
There you go again muddying the water to defend your Unions. Lobby money and campaign money are not even close to the same. Koch spent according to your link $51 million over 13 years lobbying. The Pharms spent $186 million in 2010 alone. Koch are small potatoes. They only have gotten notoriety over the Keystone XL and Wisconsin race. Which they have not contributed nearly as much as the Public Employee unions. And if all the different entities that are fighting against the Public Employee Unions are successful it will be better for Wisconsin and the USA. Time to end the strangle hold the Public Employee Unions hold over the tax payers of AMERICA.
For the record Soros Quantum fund is now worth $24.5 billion and is family owned. In 2010 it was worth $4 billion. So your Democrat Liberal hero is for sure a 1%er. And he stated that he was not going to give to any party or organization like he did in 2004 and 08. So Think Progress and MoveOn.Org will have to depend on you to support their lies and half truths.
You wouldn't have to deal with union people and your neighbors that live in caves or shacks
You are showing your lack of knowledge. Most jobs in Mexico ARE UNION. If you hire a person and lay them off you have to give them a Years pay. Many in the border towns live in shacks. Most do not. They also have free HC. And many Americans go across the border to get both HC, presriptions and Dental work. It is much less expensive. It may be a corrupt socialist society but that is their Democratic right. Mexico was a nice place to live and I really like the people down there. Thanks to Clinton it has become a toilet controlled by our drug addiction.
That's how it should be here. Not just anyone can get in - although they seem to prefer marginally educated non-assimilating third worlders to first worlders who can actually integrate into the existing system. The latter ideal is what makes the EU very much not a closed society.
Regarding the illegals, the bleeding heart idiots want to let em all in and save the world, while conservatives want to be able to gain undeserved fortune by exploiting cheap under the table labor. Another bipartisan failure.
One man said it. The country did not say it. I bet if you took a vote in Iran, the majority would not support that threat.... "
andre, the "leader" of Iran said it, and that should be taken as seriously as something said bu Obama as our dictator leader...why would the voters in Iran have anything to do with it?
rocky: "I wouldn't call Mexico, a democracy or socialist! They are a 3rd world country." while I have never been there, I would not be surprised if you were correct...
rocky, you rebutted me on a post about 50 ago, and I lost track, so I am unable to respond to your charges...sorry... :P
I never said the rules of the game were good. But they are there and pretending they aren't doesn't make it any better.
Again, no correlation here between work and pay.
Given how many people are paid to do nothing in this country, there's a lot of substance to that. But again, people aren't paid for how "hard" they work -- or ditch diggers would be paid more than executives.
Financial impact? BS.
OK, show me the job where the PC board maker makes more than the factory designer. Or anything similar. Again, it's not about how "hard" the physical labor is that determines salary. Nor should it be.
So what competitive merit based and ethical area do you work in anyway?
Actually I'm working on my own right now. I did work in a large company. What's funny is that a lot of what you say is correct. But there is also a lot of the opposite - hard workers doing good jobs. Even good management. I'm sure the proportions vary company to company. And even within a company, there are localized areas of low meritocracy and high meritocracy. So one's views could easily be affected by their own local situation.
Not illegal or evil, Nepotism is the way Unions operate. I would bet it works that way in Germany as well. It has Always been "who you know". As Mayor Daley would say when awarding City Contracts "What Kind of a Man Would Not Look Out for His Own Kin".
What's interesting is that we can say "companies suck, they are showing favoritism"; "politicians are corrupt and bought off"; "the rich are taking advantage and raiding the coffers"; "the poor are lazy and riding off the workers", etc. And all are true. And you know - it's not really the fault of the government, or the company, or the poor, or the rich. It's part of humanity. It's always been this way, and it's this way in Europe, the Middle East, North America, and everywhere else. We create institutions (companies, countries, laws, etc.) that TRY to eliminate these "human conditions" and we sometimes succeed to some degree. But to pretend that it doesn't happen or that it's going to all go away in ANY set of conditions is kind of silly. At least until the participants are aliens with a different DNA.
It is all about Human Nature. Fintail hates that a lot of people started out on 3rd base by having rich parents. Well someone somewhere did something to accumulate that wealth. It is that way in EVERY country in the World. And the natural instinct of a father is to leave a legacy for his children. Just as it is natural for a mother to protect her children. I think Humanist would like to somehow change that. Which is the reason I consider Liberal humanism a sickness. Built on guilt that can never be redeemed.
You know there are a lot of aspects of human nature I don't like. But pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away. We will always be trying to engineer institutions that reduce those situations. With varying success. And the UAW is one of those institutions that was good in the beginning, but evolved into a multiple-headed Hydra that is in the process of killing itself through its own greed.
andre, the "leader" of Iran said it, and that should be taken as seriously as something said bu Obama as our dictator leader...why would the voters in Iran have anything to do with it?
Because history has shown that a country can't sustain a war for long (and most definitely can't win a war) that the people don't believe in or agree with, and have the energy and will to win.
I just will never believe in a "preemptive" strike. Why don't we just prosecute all people for crimes they haven't even committed yet? Watch Minority Report lately?
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The recent auto worker bonuses strike me as very ILL-advised being so SOON and close to the bailouts that haven't even been fully paid back yet (or ever).
Despite the media spin, the bailouts have proven to be a MONUMENTAL failure.
If you are or were PRO-Bailout, then you must be 100% socialist because that means you believe everyone in the US has the RIGHT to a GM vehicle at taxpayer expense Obviously, this is the redistribution of wealth so that Jack and Jill can own a GM :P
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The native son still took the primary so don't count your chickens. But Romney took a lot of heat for saying let the automakers fail, while his position on the Wall St. bailouts was less clear.
Sort of fun driving by the Cruze factory yesterday (and one of the Jeep factories).
And just explaining it away as "rules" isn't going to help anything either.
People also aren't paid by how smart they work - executives can be used as an example of that as well. At least when long term consequences are taken into account - something entirely alien to the director and above level management of the vast majority of public and private sector organizations in this country. Some realms can mess up perpetually and still swim in a pool filled with gold coins. Luck and connections determines at least 75% of it.
"Again, it's not about how "hard" the physical labor is that determines salary. Nor should it be. "
And I never said such a thing, and if I did, please show me. But again, financial impact? How is this justified, looking at the general socio-economic direction of the past 30 years? Even if it is negative, they still cash in,where in reality many of them should be hanged. There should have been massive general strikes against the executive elite ages ago.
What field do you work in, is it some kind of legit meritocracy? Or another well compensated consultant? Does such a meritocracy even exist anymore in this burgeoning corporatist oligarchy where corporations are people too and those born on third base (if not home plate) who have never really pulled their own way are seen by some as good potential leaders?
And just explaining it away as "rules" isn't going to help anything either.
If you can come up with a way to change it, I'm ready to support you.
People also aren't paid by how smart they work - executives can be used as an example of that as well. At least when long term consequences are taken into account - something entirely alien to the director and above level management of the vast majority of public and private sector organizations in this country. Some realms can mess up perpetually and still swim in a pool filled with gold coins. Luck and connections determines at least 75% of it.
I'll disagree with your percentages, and I doubt there's any data out there that confirms them. Certainly there are a lot of executives earning disproportionate and unfair salaries. Certainly there are also a lot of executives working very hard, and sometimes even being under-recognized and under-paid for what they do. So we're both right. Again, I don't see how we're going to change that.
But again, financial impact?
I did take a training course once that had an interesting model. The model was related to "how complex is a job?". The theory was that pay (except perhaps in artificial, non-market union situations) is proportional to job complexity. Complexity is measured as how long a duration of time the worker's work and decision affects the business. So you have examples like:
Making fries at a fast food restaurant - affects the business for that day only Ordering and managing inventory at a warehouse - affects the next couple of months Writing a computer program that will be used for 1-2 years - affects 1-2 years out Managing staff of a department - affects company for a number of years Designing a new plant - affects company for 10+ years CEO - affects company for 10-20+ years
Obviously somewhat simplistic, but an interesting model. Still, financial impacts on the business are also an impact of pay. One of the reasons athletes make so much is that they affect the box office take for a long time, and the TV ratings and $$, so one star athlete (take Tiger Woods as an example) can net an industry or team $millions. So the pay isn't about how hard the person works, its related to their economic impact on the business.
What field do you work in, is it some kind of legit meritocracy? Or another well compensated consultant?
I'm a bit multi-disciplinary - starting with a science degree, moving into the computer and data field. I've been reasonably successful because I've worked by butt off. I delivered newspapers 7 days/week for over a year at age 14. I worked fast food jobs for 4 years during college. At times I had two jobs during college (over 20 hrs/week) while getting my bachelor's degree. I bought my first used car with money I earned and I kept that car to over 200K miles. I went through a number of jobs in industry and ended up managing technical staff.
I've been both the doer of the work as well as the manager of the doers. And let me tell you that management both is rewarding in some ways, but adds a lot of stress and hardship. At the upper levels it gets more political and I've found that is not rewarding or desirable to me. Yet I saw many hard workers at higher levels - many people that I admired, but also some as you describe. It's not all black or white. Both sides of the coin exist. I don't disagree about the horrendous salaries and lack of accountability in corporate America today.
I'm just pointing out the facts! I guess you didn't like the truth, eh? It does taste bad doesn't it being debunked! :P The unions will be out spent by the Koch Brothers in the Wisconsin recall election by a large margin. The thing is the unions have people power and are going to throw Walker out on his [non-permissible content removed]!!! I hope Rick Snyder is next!!! We need 807K signatures!
Gagrice I'm very well aware of what it's like in Mexico. A girl I use to date lived there for 5 years. While it is true there is some level of civilization in some area's it is also true that Mexico, is a dump due to a lack of regulation on our corps who pollute at will with no consequences! :sick:
I never said I can change it - nothing short of a significant upheaval will change it. But I don't see simple resignation being any more constructive.
Maybe no data to confirm them, but nothing that opposes themeither. I have yet to find an underpaid exec, unless it is some self-titled CEO who is also a sole proprietor who toils 20 hours a day to keep his marginal business afloat. Not so much in the corporate world. Again, if these people have it so hard, they'd be leaving en masse - but they aren't.
How much more complex is "managing" people than writing a program, analyzing data, or even being a cashier, really? It is 10x as complex, to justify the 10x pay? Another reason athletes make so much is because their .001%er team owners get in bidding wars based on ego and know their team playtoys can be subsidized by taxpayers.
I worked and loaned my way through school too, but I don't see that detail helping me advance any in the real world. It's mostly about being in the right place at the right time, and doing just a little more than the minimum. No special drive, no extraordinary initiative, just luck and common sense.
I like the distinction between "doers" and "managers" ...from my experience, the lower level managers are much more productive than their so-called superiors. And once you go from manager to director, and director to exec, it's exponentially less.
rocky: "I wouldn't call Mexico, a democracy or socialist! They are a 3rd world country." while I have never been there, I would not be surprised if you were correct...
A girl I use to date lived there for 5 years and taught English. She told me the good and the bad. I also have a thing called the internet where photos, video, and culture data can be easily obtained at the tip of my fingers. I have no desire to go there. Everyone I know who has gone there has gotten sick from the food or water. No thanks!
rocky, you rebutted me on a post about 50 ago, and I lost track, so I am unable to respond to your charges...sorry...
You would of had no defense for them anyways! Probably best to move forward and make another false accusation!
It's mostly about being in the right place at the right time, and doing just a little more than the minimum. No special drive, no extraordinary initiative, just luck and common sense.
I think that's a tad simplistic. While being at the right place at the right time - luck - sure beats being in the wrong place at the wrong time, one needs to be able to take advantage of that "luck" when it presents itself. Maybe it means having the right skill set or background or education. Maybe it means being willing to travel a lot.
I really haven't really come across that many people in my line of work that fit the "No special drive, no extraordinary initiative, just luck and common sense" type you mentioned. Maybe some, but not that many overall.
And without the luck and knowing some right people, you stand a far lesser chance of going anywhere.
FWIW, I don't look at actually completing job tasks as special initiative or drive, although from the behavior of many managers, it might be. I don't see mere merit getting many people many places. The corporate ranks don't seem to be that much different than UAW waste - maybe just easier to fire people who haven't become untouchable.
I know none that do and I know quite a few UAW retirees. Most that leave the state go to Florida or Arizona they aren't wealthy enough to live in California!
And without the luck and knowing some right people, you stand a far lesser chance of going anywhere
And how does that happen? Sure, you can play a zero handicap game of golf, or marry the CEO's daughter. That might work for a few, but not everyone.
Around here people (managers, etc) get to know you, or about you, by the reputation you develop on programs - by how good a job you do. Do your job well, and program and engineering managers come knocking at your door asking you to support their programs, because they know you can deliver the goods. At least that the way it works in the technical and program ranks.
There are probably more of the sorts I think you're referring to in the functional ranks of managers. Where people and soft skills (and, maybe, golf playing and knowing the right people) may play a bigger roll in your progression.
But yeah, you are right about the last part. Different work environments. I can only speak about my department and those I work with, none of whom are engineers. The cookie cutter MBA and corporate sycophant world is its own too, probably should be under the same microscope as union perks.
My last real job was at a large, private medical university. I didn't know a soul when I started there. By the time I left, I was the highest paid person in my position at the university, not because I "had an in," but because my boss greatly valued the quality of my work, attention to detail, and sense of responsibility. He always said he fought to be allowed to pay me above the salary cap (which I was) because he wanted to price me out of his competitions' ability to lure me away. (He succeeded.)
Several of my co-workers, who held the same position title, did very well there too, and are still doing well, using the same principles. The less diligent co-workers, who were also the most likely to complain about just about everything, are stuck in the lower- to mid-level of the salary range. It really couldn't have been a more merit-based system.
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As I went through the cloverleaf getting on I-70 to go home today Lucas Oil Stadium looms large on the horizon. That stadium is there because of Peyton. That stadium brought the superbowl here. There you have the impact of one man changing the city skyline with a building that can be seen from 20 miles away and a city that is now known worldwide.
Didn't they say something similar when they built the Silverdome in Pontiac, Michigan?
This from Wiki:
The sale of the Silverdome, completed in 1975 at a cost of $55.7 million (approx. $220 million in 2009 dollars), and sold in 2009 for $583,000 was viewed by many as a symbol of the collapse of real estate prices in the Detroit metropolitan area though many local leaders and residents claimed the sale was brought about due to the incompetence of city management and their not having a vision or future plans for the stadium and surrounding area.
When I moved to Michigan in 1980, I read numerous articles about the Silverdome, and it was sold to the locals that it would NEVER take a dollar of taxpayer money to support it...but it seemed to take over a half a million yearly to keep it solvent, if the articles are to be believed...
I am always amazed how they can sell locals on paying for a new sports stadium, hundreds of millions of $$$ that they don't have, so that they can keep a sports team (big deal) and give a couple of jobs to inner city residents to sell hot dogs and beer on game day...tell the team owners to pay for their own stadium or let them leave...it really is that simple...
because my boss greatly valued the quality of my work, attention to detail, and sense of responsibility.
After I spent 3 years in the late 1970s trying to keep a farm going under the Carter debacle, it became clear that my best chance at survival was going back to being a Telephone Technician. April of 1980 I called my old boss on Friday and asked what that chances were of getting back on with what had become AT&T Alascom. His instant reply was can you be here Monday. I said yes packed and bought an airplane ticket back to Alaska. When I got there I found out he called the Teamster's dispatcher after talking to me. He told him he needed a technician with all the skills I had. They could not supply anyone by Monday and waived the contractual waiting period. For those that were around in 1980 unemployment was about what it is now. So having skills a company wants is a big part of getting a good job. I was given top journeyman pay which was also not common. I did a good job until I quit to take my final job in the Arctic. By then my boss moved out of the state and up the AT&T ladder.
Comments
The handwriting has been on the wall for at least 50 years for all to see. If you did not see it who is to blame for that? I could see when I went to work in 1961 that I had two roads to follow. One was to be the best technician I could be or go back to college. I chose the first and it paid off. I feel for my son who struggles. I tried to get him into the Teamsters. But he was too proud to take a job that way. I am proud of him even though life is very tough. We are all stuck with our own decisions. I prefer that to the Cradle to Grave systems in Europe that are falling apart.
I actually work in telecom, just like you did - but not field based tech work. I have worked in a few offices in my career, and have yet to notice a positive correlation between salary and work. I make more than twice what I did when I started not long after I got out of school, but I don't think I work twice as hard. Director of my department easily makes more than twice as much as me, he doesn't work twice as hard. Sometimes it doesn't seem any different than the old tenure-based union rules, even in the very anti-union corporate world.
Let's take it a step further - there are just rules of the game. Every society has its rules, many of which are not necessarily fair. I know a guy with 20+ years experience in laboratory analyses, and he also has a 2 year AA degree. Even with all of his experience and hard work, he can't even get his foot in the door to a pile of jobs that would hire a minimum B.S. degree. Is that fair? Perhaps not. But that's the way it goes.
It's not just working harder that earns pay. It's experience. It's seniority (especially in unionized environments). It's education. It's stress. It's the financial impact of the worker's decisions on the company. It's how many years forward those decisions affect the business. You might work hard soldering PC boards and make very little. You might decide the design of the next $700M manufacturing plant. Your designing the plant might be "easier" work than the PC board assembler, but the impact on the company of your doing a good job (or not) is far greater and takes much more responsibility.
And working in telecom? - well don't get me started. I can see why anybody would be cynical working in that industry. One of the more corrupt and anti-competitive. I'm still looking for a way to cut off my telecom providers. I hate being enslaved to limited choices for these markets.
-Rocky
What parent does not want the best possible job for their child? As Tlong stated so well. You play the game the way society dictates. You want to buck it you could lose. Union jobs for the High School graduate or less give the most bang for your back. That does not mean I approve of the protectionism offered by the Unions. The Union lunacy in many places that will not allow an engineer to carry his laptop from one office to the next. And I am totally opposed to Union contracts signed by people that are not paying for those contracts. Such as Public employee Unions.
One of the more corrupt and anti-competitive. I'm still looking for a way to cut off my telecom providers. I hate being enslaved to limited choices for these markets.
You would have hated it when I went into the telephone business. It was a controlled monopoly. Only one choice. Today I have two land line and 4 wireless choices. With long distance virtually free. When I went to work in Alaska in 1970 it cost $2.80 per minute to call CA. When we installed the first Cellular service in the Arctic in 1996 we charged $1.35 per minute. Internet we got $1200 per month for 256kb service. We did not have the capacity to offer anyone a full T cxr. Now everyone expects streaming video on their smartphone for pennies. I expect that service to be going downhill with the massive demand.
There is NO European System. Each country has their own unique system. Germany may have multiple parties as we have. They are dominated by the two major parties since WW2. You are only frustrating yourself hoping that the USA will somehow look like Germany. If you want to study the different EU governments, check out Switzerland. They loosely copied the US constitution. Not sure if they have term limits. It all comes down to whether you want to keep most of what you make and be responsible for your own welfare or give half or more to a government to take care of you. I prefer the freedom to take care of myself. Though we are all sucked into this semi socialist system the USA has devolved into.
Don't think for a minute that Germany does not have their 1%ers. The number of Billionaires in Germany has jumped over the last decade along with the USA.
I know that but according to some you can't make money in a well regulated environment or in a socialist leaning country. I guess that debunks there myths, eh?
Germany may have multiple parties as we have.
Huh? Like we have? We have two not six like Germany. Bernie Sanders is (I) even though he leans towards Socialist.
Politics of Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Germany
That is why our government needs to be reformed to allow 3rd party's a voice. I would like to see a Multi-party system. Our other political party's have no voice. You have corporate party (A) and corporate party (B).....I would like to see the Socialist Workers Party, Labor Party, Libertarian Party, etc, have a voice in our government!
Multi-party system
Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Taiwan are examples of nations that have used a multi-party system effectively in their democracies. In these countries, usually no single party has a parliamentary majority by itself. Instead, multiple political parties form coalitions for the purpose of developing power blocs for governing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-party_system
We honestly need a Workers Party with pro labor representatives to counter the 1% and take back our government from corporate control!!!
-Rocky
One more time: Christians imposed their belief -segregation is wrong- on people who opposed integration.
A religious belief was incorporated into a law.
he Christians in the South here in the U.S. back during the civil war weren't really Christians? I think history would support me that 99% of people in this country were Christians, no? Not sure about England. I've really never been interested in there history despite having some British heritage (very very small amount)
See my previous answer. I think everyone else in this thread understands my argument. I'm sorry I can't make it any clearer.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
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Letter sent to George Romney from the Mormon Church in 1964
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3hpIZHRvUc
It's a shame Mitten is not like his old man! If he was I would vote for him!
-Rocky
I think it says just the opposite. A plutocracy can exist within a socialized society. Look at Russia and Putin. He is most likely the wealthiest man on the planet. Just does not brag about his billions. And Russia is a socialist Democracy much like Germany.
I would like to see the Socialist Workers Party, Labor Party, Libertarian Party, etc, have a voice in our government!
I think the strongest 3rd party showed it's strength in the 2010 election. The very loosely organized Tea Party. I think they are best placed to take on the Crony Capitalist in the Dem and Rep parties. Way too many liberals already in our government. The Plutocratic Socialist system we currently have is held together by the overly powerful Public employee UNIONS. They provide some of the largest single campaign cash piles.
The first thing we have to do is to divide NEA into its three components – national, state and local. Though money is extracted from members’ paychecks in one lump sum, its division and destination depend on federal and state laws. NEA’s national headquarters expects to bring in $358 million in 2010-11.
You would think the Koch brothers controlled this country with their lousy $1.7 million spent across the USA in 2010 campaign contributions. Where is your screaming about the NEA trying to control elections???
Financial impact? BS. The entire bank of knowledge had by the current tenured MBA type is singular - reduce labor costs, reduce all related costs so already overpaid execs can increase their own pay. That's what earns pay - creating more pay for a few others. Experience translates into managing not to be fired. Same for seniority. Education - most of the old timers would be lucky to get an entry level job with theirs...heck, management where I am couldn't get an entry level job in their own office with their credentials. Stress? Haven't seen it, especially when the "high earners" micromanage and keep many one step away from going postal. Remember "Office Space"? It could be a documentary about many corporate jobs.
So what competitive merit based and ethical area do you work in anyway?
The socio-economic gap in Germany is much less pronounced than here. I'd wager executive compensation is also a far lesser multiplier of worker incomes.
Not illegal or evil, Nepotism is the way Unions operate. I would bet it works that way in Germany as well. It has Always been "who you know". As Mayor Daley would say when awarding City Contracts "What Kind of a Man Would Not Look Out for His Own Kin".
The Swiss system is much older than ours.
That is what my Swiss friends would say as well. However their current Constitution was put together in 1848 loosely patterned after ours. Prior to that it was more of a dual Theocracy shared with the Roman Catholics and Protestants. Unlike our civil war they ended up with a whole new constitution following their civil war. I am surprised you did not know that.
http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/reformation-switzerland-calvin.- html
Also has socialized everything.
They pay for it. You have spent time over there. What keeps you from immigrating if you really believe they have a better system? Or maybe you have it better here than you are letting on?
I haven't seen anything about the Swiss actually copying our constitution, but riding a tide of unification and modernity that was sweeping across the area. That kind of enlightened ideal became popular all over Europe in that era, due to what started in France earlier, IMO (and also ideals which were then very "liberal") - although I guess in terms of land mass and maybe population, the US was the pioneer. The French looked after some of their crooked 1%ers pretty well, too.
It's virtually impossible to get into a place like that unless you have an unearned income of 100K+ a year to buy your way in, marry in, are employed by a slimy tax dodging transplant, or make up refugee status to take advantage of the guilt forced on Europe by the one worlders, which has resulted in hilarious and eventually bloody demographics.
I think if that were the case he would of been on that billionaire list! He is very likely rich but I doubt the richest man in the world is Putin. Also I wouldn't call Russia, a socialist country. It is borderline communist and the people have limited freedoms.
I think the strongest 3rd party showed it's strength in the 2010 election. The very loosely organized Tea Party. I think they are best placed to take on the Crony Capitalist in the Dem and Rep parties.
Are they a registered political party? Last I checked they voted for all radical republican candidates. I'm talking about "real" political party's not some hijacked evangelical fringe movement full of racist bible thumpers! :surprise:
Way too many liberals already in our government. The Plutocratic Socialist system we currently have is held together by the overly powerful Public employee UNIONS. They provide some of the largest single campaign cash piles.
So if unions counter the crony capitalist it is bad? :confuse: There money is pocket change compared to what the crony capitalist spend on elections. Look at the multi millions the Koch brothers are spending in Wisconsin to save Walkers job? I can't wait until they throw that suit out of office!
You would think the Koch brothers controlled this country with their lousy $1.7 million spent across the USA in 2010 campaign contributions.
This is from 2010
VERDICT: When it comes to the combination of institutional lobbying, 527 group donations and PAC expenditures, Koch Industries far out-spends Soros’ hedge fund and think tank, $57.4 million to $12.8 million. Most of this money is attributable to lobbying expenditures.
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/09/opensecrets-battle---koch-brothers.html
Another myth of yours debunked! :P
Pollution - Spills, fines and indictments
During the 1990s, faults in Koch Industry pipelines were responsible for more than 300 oil and chemical spills in five states, prompting a landmark penalty of $35 million from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). In Minnesota, it was fined an additional $8 million for discharging oil into streams.
According to an August 30, 2010 article in The New Yorker magazine, "In 1999, a jury found Koch Industries guilty of negligence and malice in the deaths of two Texas teen-agers in an explosion that resulted from a leaky underground butane pipeline. (In 2001, the company paid an undisclosed settlement.)
During the months leading up to the 2000 presidential elections, the company faced even more liability, in the form of a 97-count federal indictment charging it with concealing illegal releases of 91 metric tons of benzene, a known carcinogen, from its refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas. The company faced liability for three hundred and fifty million dollars in fines, and four Koch employees faced up to thirty-five years in prison.
Unions
Public records show that the Kochs gave more than $17 million between 1997 and 2008 to various groups including the Competitive Enterprise Institute, which lobbies for legislation opposing unions.
According to Mother Jones Magazine, Koch Industries' Political Action Committee contributed the second largest donation to Scott Walker's 2010 campaign for governor of Wisconsin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Koch_family
-Rocky
So you just can't walk across the border into Germany and apply for a Union job at a Mercedes factory. Or start building homes like here in CA. What kind of Freedom is that. Only for the elitist already in Germany or Switzerland. :P
By the way when I rented a home in Mexico back in 1996 I had to prove I had at least $1500 per month coming in to get a 6 month visa and get the phone and electricity turned on. Socialism may work where you have a closed society. It is bankrupting US covering every Juan, Maria & Miguel that wanders across our wide open borders. And it is the same bleeding heart Liberals in this country that insist we give everyone legal or illegal free health care. The Unions here are not allowed to discriminate based on legal status. Or use E-Verify.
What that Ayn Rand utopia you embrace isn't quite as breath taking as you thought? You would be a 1% there. You could hire Juan and pay him one dollar an hour since that is all people are worth to you outside of the Arctic Slope in Alaska!!!
-Rocky
There you go again muddying the water to defend your Unions. Lobby money and campaign money are not even close to the same. Koch spent according to your link $51 million over 13 years lobbying. The Pharms spent $186 million in 2010 alone. Koch are small potatoes. They only have gotten notoriety over the Keystone XL and Wisconsin race. Which they have not contributed nearly as much as the Public Employee unions. And if all the different entities that are fighting against the Public Employee Unions are successful it will be better for Wisconsin and the USA. Time to end the strangle hold the Public Employee Unions hold over the tax payers of AMERICA.
For the record Soros Quantum fund is now worth $24.5 billion and is family owned. In 2010 it was worth $4 billion. So your Democrat Liberal hero is for sure a 1%er. And he stated that he was not going to give to any party or organization like he did in 2004 and 08. So Think Progress and MoveOn.Org will have to depend on you to support their lies and half truths.
You are showing your lack of knowledge. Most jobs in Mexico ARE UNION. If you hire a person and lay them off you have to give them a Years pay. Many in the border towns live in shacks. Most do not. They also have free HC. And many Americans go across the border to get both HC, presriptions and Dental work. It is much less expensive. It may be a corrupt socialist society but that is their Democratic right. Mexico was a nice place to live and I really like the people down there. Thanks to Clinton it has become a toilet controlled by our drug addiction.
Regarding the illegals, the bleeding heart idiots want to let em all in and save the world, while conservatives want to be able to gain undeserved fortune by exploiting cheap under the table labor. Another bipartisan failure.
One man said it. The country did not say it. I bet if you took a vote in Iran, the majority would not support that threat.... "
andre, the "leader" of Iran said it, and that should be taken as seriously as something said bu Obama as our
dictatorleader...why would the voters in Iran have anything to do with it?rocky: "I wouldn't call Mexico, a democracy or socialist! They are a 3rd world country." while I have never been there, I would not be surprised if you were correct...
rocky, you rebutted me on a post about 50 ago, and I lost track, so I am unable to respond to your charges...sorry...
Again, no correlation here between work and pay.
Given how many people are paid to do nothing in this country, there's a lot of substance to that. But again, people aren't paid for how "hard" they work -- or ditch diggers would be paid more than executives.
Financial impact? BS.
OK, show me the job where the PC board maker makes more than the factory designer. Or anything similar. Again, it's not about how "hard" the physical labor is that determines salary. Nor should it be.
So what competitive merit based and ethical area do you work in anyway?
Actually I'm working on my own right now. I did work in a large company. What's funny is that a lot of what you say is correct. But there is also a lot of the opposite - hard workers doing good jobs. Even good management. I'm sure the proportions vary company to company. And even within a company, there are localized areas of low meritocracy and high meritocracy. So one's views could easily be affected by their own local situation.
What's interesting is that we can say "companies suck, they are showing favoritism"; "politicians are corrupt and bought off"; "the rich are taking advantage and raiding the coffers"; "the poor are lazy and riding off the workers", etc. And all are true. And you know - it's not really the fault of the government, or the company, or the poor, or the rich. It's part of humanity. It's always been this way, and it's this way in Europe, the Middle East, North America, and everywhere else. We create institutions (companies, countries, laws, etc.) that TRY to eliminate these "human conditions" and we sometimes succeed to some degree. But to pretend that it doesn't happen or that it's going to all go away in ANY set of conditions is kind of silly. At least until the participants are aliens with a different DNA.
Because history has shown that a country can't sustain a war for long (and most definitely can't win a war) that the people don't believe in or agree with, and have the energy and will to win.
I just will never believe in a "preemptive" strike. Why don't we just prosecute all people for crimes they haven't even committed yet? Watch Minority Report lately?
Despite the media spin, the bailouts have proven to be a MONUMENTAL failure.
If you are or were PRO-Bailout, then you must be 100% socialist because that means you believe everyone in the US has the RIGHT to a GM vehicle at taxpayer expense
Sort of fun driving by the Cruze factory yesterday (and one of the Jeep factories).
People also aren't paid by how smart they work - executives can be used as an example of that as well. At least when long term consequences are taken into account - something entirely alien to the director and above level management of the vast majority of public and private sector organizations in this country. Some realms can mess up perpetually and still swim in a pool filled with gold coins. Luck and connections determines at least 75% of it.
"Again, it's not about how "hard" the physical labor is that determines salary. Nor should it be. "
And I never said such a thing, and if I did, please show me. But again, financial impact? How is this justified, looking at the general socio-economic direction of the past 30 years? Even if it is negative, they still cash in,where in reality many of them should be hanged. There should have been massive general strikes against the executive elite ages ago.
What field do you work in, is it some kind of legit meritocracy? Or another well compensated consultant? Does such a meritocracy even exist anymore in this burgeoning corporatist oligarchy where corporations are people too and those born on third base (if not home plate) who have never really pulled their own way are seen by some as good potential leaders?
If you can come up with a way to change it, I'm ready to support you.
People also aren't paid by how smart they work - executives can be used as an example of that as well. At least when long term consequences are taken into account - something entirely alien to the director and above level management of the vast majority of public and private sector organizations in this country. Some realms can mess up perpetually and still swim in a pool filled with gold coins. Luck and connections determines at least 75% of it.
I'll disagree with your percentages, and I doubt there's any data out there that confirms them. Certainly there are a lot of executives earning disproportionate and unfair salaries. Certainly there are also a lot of executives working very hard, and sometimes even being under-recognized and under-paid for what they do. So we're both right. Again, I don't see how we're going to change that.
But again, financial impact?
I did take a training course once that had an interesting model. The model was related to "how complex is a job?". The theory was that pay (except perhaps in artificial, non-market union situations) is proportional to job complexity. Complexity is measured as how long a duration of time the worker's work and decision affects the business. So you have examples like:
Making fries at a fast food restaurant - affects the business for that day only
Ordering and managing inventory at a warehouse - affects the next couple of months
Writing a computer program that will be used for 1-2 years - affects 1-2 years out
Managing staff of a department - affects company for a number of years
Designing a new plant - affects company for 10+ years
CEO - affects company for 10-20+ years
Obviously somewhat simplistic, but an interesting model. Still, financial impacts on the business are also an impact of pay. One of the reasons athletes make so much is that they affect the box office take for a long time, and the TV ratings and $$, so one star athlete (take Tiger Woods as an example) can net an industry or team $millions. So the pay isn't about how hard the person works, its related to their economic impact on the business.
What field do you work in, is it some kind of legit meritocracy? Or another well compensated consultant?
I'm a bit multi-disciplinary - starting with a science degree, moving into the computer and data field. I've been reasonably successful because I've worked by butt off. I delivered newspapers 7 days/week for over a year at age 14. I worked fast food jobs for 4 years during college. At times I had two jobs during college (over 20 hrs/week) while getting my bachelor's degree. I bought my first used car with money I earned and I kept that car to over 200K miles. I went through a number of jobs in industry and ended up managing technical staff.
I've been both the doer of the work as well as the manager of the doers. And let me tell you that management both is rewarding in some ways, but adds a lot of stress and hardship. At the upper levels it gets more political and I've found that is not rewarding or desirable to me. Yet I saw many hard workers at higher levels - many people that I admired, but also some as you describe. It's not all black or white. Both sides of the coin exist. I don't disagree about the horrendous salaries and lack of accountability in corporate America today.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Maybe no data to confirm them, but nothing that opposes themeither. I have yet to find an underpaid exec, unless it is some self-titled CEO who is also a sole proprietor who toils 20 hours a day to keep his marginal business afloat. Not so much in the corporate world. Again, if these people have it so hard, they'd be leaving en masse - but they aren't.
How much more complex is "managing" people than writing a program, analyzing data, or even being a cashier, really? It is 10x as complex, to justify the 10x pay? Another reason athletes make so much is because their .001%er team owners get in bidding wars based on ego and know their team playtoys can be subsidized by taxpayers.
I worked and loaned my way through school too, but I don't see that detail helping me advance any in the real world. It's mostly about being in the right place at the right time, and doing just a little more than the minimum. No special drive, no extraordinary initiative, just luck and common sense.
I like the distinction between "doers" and "managers"
A girl I use to date lived there for 5 years and taught English. She told me the good and the bad. I also have a thing called the internet where photos, video, and culture data can be easily obtained at the tip of my fingers. I have no desire to go there. Everyone I know who has gone there has gotten sick from the food or water. No thanks!
rocky, you rebutted me on a post about 50 ago, and I lost track, so I am unable to respond to your charges...sorry...
You would of had no defense for them anyways! Probably best to move forward and make another false accusation!
-Rocky
I think that's a tad simplistic. While being at the right place at the right time - luck - sure beats being in the wrong place at the wrong time, one needs to be able to take advantage of that "luck" when it presents itself. Maybe it means having the right skill set or background or education. Maybe it means being willing to travel a lot.
I really haven't really come across that many people in my line of work that fit the "No special drive, no extraordinary initiative, just luck and common sense" type you mentioned. Maybe some, but not that many overall.
Your loss. Wonderful spots to visit down there. I'm sure a lot of UAW retirees spend lots of time in Mexico.
And without the luck and knowing some right people, you stand a far lesser chance of going anywhere.
FWIW, I don't look at actually completing job tasks as special initiative or drive, although from the behavior of many managers, it might be. I don't see mere merit getting many people many places. The corporate ranks don't seem to be that much different than UAW waste - maybe just easier to fire people who haven't become untouchable.
-Rocky
-Rocky
And without the luck and knowing some right people, you stand a far lesser chance of going anywhere
And how does that happen? Sure, you can play a zero handicap game of golf, or marry the CEO's daughter. That might work for a few, but not everyone.
Around here people (managers, etc) get to know you, or about you, by the reputation you develop on programs - by how good a job you do. Do your job well, and program and engineering managers come knocking at your door asking you to support their programs, because they know you can deliver the goods. At least that the way it works in the technical and program ranks.
There are probably more of the sorts I think you're referring to in the functional ranks of managers. Where people and soft skills (and, maybe, golf playing and knowing the right people) may play a bigger roll in your progression.
But yeah, you are right about the last part. Different work environments. I can only speak about my department and those I work with, none of whom are engineers. The cookie cutter MBA and corporate sycophant world is its own too, probably should be under the same microscope as union perks.
My last real job was at a large, private medical university. I didn't know a soul when I started there. By the time I left, I was the highest paid person in my position at the university, not because I "had an in," but because my boss greatly valued the quality of my work, attention to detail, and sense of responsibility. He always said he fought to be allowed to pay me above the salary cap (which I was) because he wanted to price me out of his competitions' ability to lure me away. (He succeeded.)
Several of my co-workers, who held the same position title, did very well there too, and are still doing well, using the same principles. The less diligent co-workers, who were also the most likely to complain about just about everything, are stuck in the lower- to mid-level of the salary range. It really couldn't have been a more merit-based system.
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That's worth $19 million a year
This from Wiki:
The sale of the Silverdome, completed in 1975 at a cost of $55.7 million (approx. $220 million in 2009 dollars), and sold in 2009 for $583,000 was viewed by many as a symbol of the collapse of real estate prices in the Detroit metropolitan area though many local leaders and residents claimed the sale was brought about due to the incompetence of city management and their not having a vision or future plans for the stadium and surrounding area.
I am always amazed how they can sell locals on paying for a new sports stadium, hundreds of millions of $$$ that they don't have, so that they can keep a sports team (big deal) and give a couple of jobs to inner city residents to sell hot dogs and beer on game day...tell the team owners to pay for their own stadium or let them leave...it really is that simple...
After I spent 3 years in the late 1970s trying to keep a farm going under the Carter debacle, it became clear that my best chance at survival was going back to being a Telephone Technician. April of 1980 I called my old boss on Friday and asked what that chances were of getting back on with what had become AT&T Alascom. His instant reply was can you be here Monday. I said yes packed and bought an airplane ticket back to Alaska. When I got there I found out he called the Teamster's dispatcher after talking to me. He told him he needed a technician with all the skills I had. They could not supply anyone by Monday and waived the contractual waiting period. For those that were around in 1980 unemployment was about what it is now. So having skills a company wants is a big part of getting a good job. I was given top journeyman pay which was also not common. I did a good job until I quit to take my final job in the Arctic. By then my boss moved out of the state and up the AT&T ladder.