>[Currency manipulation] Had almost nothing to do with buyers leaving the Big 3 and going to the Japanese made vehicles.
Absolutely wrong. The small cars that were imported with almost no options were termed econoboxes for a reason--they were cheaper than the US cars, which for the most part were larger, because of dumping and because of currency manipulation.
I chose a Big 3 car in 1994 precisely because it was cheaper and less expensive than a Honda Civic
Your Neon was probably built by the UAW in Belvidere Illinois. Did you hear the beer cans rattling in the fender wells? :shades: :lemon: I see no excuse for shoddy workmanship in the 1990s by UAW. According to Rocky the workers did great all during the Clinton years. Unless maybe they did not get the memo that they were not supposed to inhale the pot.
I wonder if the UAW was doing so well under a Clinton regime, Why they nearly bankrupted GM with a long strike in 1998? Greedy leeches would be my guess. I am big on buying American made products. My 2005 GMC made in the USA PU will likely be the Last UAW built vehicle for me. I can only think the difference between my Sequoia and the GMC Sierra that were both built in Indiana is the UAW workmanship on the GMC was poor. My door never fit right and the dealer could not correct it. It should have never left the factory that way. GM and C Buyers beware. My made in Mexico Suburban was one of my favorite vehicles. My Princeton Indiana built Sequoia is a very nice vehicle. Four and a half years and the only failure was the made in India Denso NAV unit, covered by warranty.
you can argue all you want, but take these last few posts as an indicator of why people left D3, and it was because they made junk...period...and the ones who assembled that junk were YOUR people, the UAW...no one else, at least in the USA...
Their lowered standards of quality is what did them in...your UAW wasn't smart enough to put 2 + 2 together and realize that if you make enough junk, people will desert you in a heartbeat, and they did...
There simply were not enough lemkos who bought cars that were accidentally made correctly, and the imports have made billions off us by simply making a car better than the UAW could, which, by the way, is not too difficult...after all, if they can teach illiterate Mexicans in 3rd world Mexico to assemble cars, just how much skill do these workers have???...they were idiots making bad cars, and it took years for enough folks to desert them for a quality product...
I always found Roger Smith an interesting guy with mixed results. You are right about robotics and automation which upset the UAW. He also was trying to reinvent GM with the Saturn and its approach to customers. However, his big failure was bean counting his product lines into near identical vehicles. Might have saved some production money, but drove customers away and really cut into margins on upper level cars like Buick and their dealers.
Many Toyota's are boats too because that's what a big chunk of customers want. Enthusiasts put "boats" down, but they are often what creates the volume that allows sportier models to also be offered by carmakers.
If you have the original struts on the car, I would recommend replacing those with Monroe SensaTrac struts, You'll have a much more controlled ride. The original Delco struts tended to be valved too soft for my tastes.
The small cars that were imported with almost no options were termed econoboxes for a reason--they were cheaper than the US cars, which for the most part were larger, because of dumping and because of currency manipulation.
In the beginning, there was a lot of truth to that. I remember "dumping" and a devalued yen being bantered about quite often (sound familiar? China?)
So, I agree in a large way that Japan was able to enter the market more easily with its "econoboxes", due to pricing (and the Iranian oil embargo raising oil prices), but the average car price in 2010 was on the order of $28K... hardly the price range of an "econobox" today.
That begs the question (and I can only speculate myself): What keeps people buying Japanese (and now, Korean) car products?
Many in the USA have only owned big-3 products, and are reluctant to change, even today, to an import brand. Yet, many more didn't feel that compulsion to stay domestic, and today that aspect gets weaker by the year.
Changing up what "could have been" for a moment... Lets say that, instead of Japan sending over the cheapo cars, it had decided to send over much higher optioned vehicles, comparably priced to the US produced models at the time.
Over the same time frame (the late 1960's to today), where would Japanese model sales be?
I would bet there wouldn't be much difference than what we see today.
50 years is 1/2 the lifespan of GM. I would bet that the acceptance today would be about what it currently is, although the "growth in acceptance/movement" curve would be steeper and more compressed.
Shipping in cheap models at the beginning is a great economic plan for an automaker, as it allows it to build a dealer network and get more people into its cars.
BMW, AUDI and MB have pretty good acceptance rates today, and yet they aren't noted as ever having had the "econobox" accusations.
I see the fact that millions of buyers moved over to imports, and they are probably not coming back to D3 cars.
That's what happened in my family; my parents owned nothing but Chevys, Fords, and one Lincoln(a Mark 7 LSC, which wasn't bad at all). My wife's side of the family were Buick owners. Aside from my much-loved 1999 Wrangler, it is unlikely I'll buy another D 2.5 vehicle- new or used(my son or I might buy a '60s vintage musclecar someday, but that's about it). And before you say I haven't looked a recent Detroit products, note that just last week I test drove a 2012 Mustang GT, fully expecting to love it, but it left me strangely unimpressed. And no, the fact that the UAW built it had no influence on my evaluation...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"Lets say that, instead of Japan sending over the cheapo cars, it had decided to send over much higher optioned vehicles, comparably priced to the US produced models at the time."
Isn't that what happened???...with the import quotas, before they had plants here making all the cars they do now, I thought the quotas is what pushed them into Lexus and Acura and Infiniti...if they were going to be limited to the cars they could import, they might as well attack caddy and lincoln instead of Pintos and Vegas...
berri: "However, his big failure was bean counting his product lines into near identical vehicles."...that might have been his biggest flaw from a capitalist point of view...from the UAW viewpoint, any robot meant a lost UAW job...but the robots won anyway, over the long term...
I think by the 1980s Mercedes was the Luxury cars to beat. Caddy was not in the same class. Toyota built Lexus to beat Mercedes. And were successful. Now BMW and Mercedes are battling over the top luxury spot. With Lexus far behind. And Caddy in distant fourth place.
I do believe what you said probably happened. But I do not believe one bad apple means a bushel of bad apples like you imply. I have had 3 terrible lawyers does that mean all lawyers are mentally incompetent, liars, thief's, scum bags who rip off there clients? Probably not! I'm yet to meet one but I would assume there are good lawyers with a conscious out there.
The problem I have is you make a stereotype that all union people are bad. The ones I knew including my family members were well liked and respected because they worked hard. I had a uncle who was lazy and was the total opposite of my grandfather but he ended up getting hurt driving a cushman over a chuck hole crushing his spine and will probably end up in a wheel chair. GM management did not corridor off the area and he got hurt. He wasn't aware of it's existence since he worked in another part of the plant. My point is this, Bob....You have lazy workers in non union shops also and companies do not discipline them. When I was working at a furniture manufacturer (non-union) we had plenty of folks that did not pull there own weight but because they kissed enough butt nothing was ever done! They spent more time reporting in the Supervisor and taking credit for a job well done than working. We had one guy we use to say "he is a legend in his own mind"
As far as Roger Smith goes he was one of the worst CEO's of all time. He made the quote that "The American Public will buy whatever we make for them" attitude like Roger Smith.
Also I have another bone to pick with you.....
If American workers were rewarded for 100 percent of their increases in labor productivity between 1980 and 2008—as they were during the middle part of the 20th century—average wages would be $28.53 per hour—42.7 percent higher than the average real wage in 2008.
4 years later we are looking at roughly $30 bucks an hour? CEO pay is at 475x higher than the hourly employee and manufacturing jobs are paying at the same rate they were 30 years ago! What is wrong with this picture? How did attorney rates go up so much and not real wages for the blue collar?
So you blame the UAW workers for your problems with your car? I would hope a much more expensive car like an Audi would hold up better than a Neon. You are comparing apples to oranges. A car that costs twice if not 3x as much as the Neon, SMH! :confuse: Are you sure your Neon was even built by UAW workers because I do know a good portion of them were built in Toluca, Mexico
My theory (data) was from the early-mid 2000's The only Acura brand I'm aware of that is made here is the TL and the only Lexus made here is the Camry skinned ES. Maybe that number has increased to 60% now? I guess when you can pay American workers who are desperate for work a crappy wage you can treat them like slaves. As my buddy Louis said the other day that he has became more sympathetic for Facism because it clear the average person is too dumb to realize how badly they are being taken advantage of!
>[Currency manipulation] Had almost nothing to do with buyers leaving the Big 3 and going to the Japanese made vehicles.
Absolutely wrong. The small cars that were imported with almost no options were termed econoboxes for a reason--they were cheaper than the US cars, which for the most part were larger, because of dumping and because of currency manipulation.
Last time I checked the UAW was not in charge of engineering cars and I think people like yourself have no understanding or grasp of engineering! I do because I worked with quality engineers in several of my jobs and in fact was able to get materials changed that would last longer. The UAW workers did not have authorization back then like they do now to not build crappy engineered products. Now the UAW has to sign off on product launches for there members to build because morons that have no flippin' clue on how a car is built blame the UAW members instead of bean counters!
If American workers were rewarded for 100 percent of their increases in labor productivity between 1980 and 2008—as they were during the middle part of the 20th century—average wages would be $28.53 per hour—42.7 percent higher than the average real wage in 2008.
So you are saying that because automation made the worker more productive they deserve a bigger piece of the pie? What about the people that invented and manufactured the automation equipment. And there are UAW workers still making more than $28.53 per hour. The difference between us is this: In my latter years working I felt we were over paid, based on the industry average. I was thankful for what I earned, never felt it something I was entitled to just for showing up on the job.
CEO pay is at 475x higher than the hourly employee and manufacturing jobs are paying at the same rate they were 30 years ago! What is wrong with this picture?
I agree that is a rip-off. Not of the workers, but of the stock holders. The SEC should be able to control that classic case of Crony Capitalism. Too much I will scratch your back if you scratch mine in the Board rooms of Corporations World wide.
I'm not sure I understand the point you are attempting to make here.
The point I was addressing was that, regardless of whether the Japanese (or Koreans, or Chinese) entered the US market with the cheapest, bare bones models or upscaled models (and cars like the Camry, Accord, and Altima fit that category) the present day scenario would look much the same.
Again, there can be certain advantages to entering the market with cheaper vehicles, but once the "psychological lock" is broken that binds the buying population to domestically made products, which in this case is cars, price becomes irrelevant as long as the product is competitive.
Now, you can "translate" those comments into the "abuse of the American autoworker" if you wish, but that has nothing to do with product acceptance.
All I'm saying is that those who wish to believe the current status would be far different if the Japanese had not entered the US with bare-boned models at a cheap price really don't have a clear understanding of what actually happened.
Changing up what "could have been" for a moment... Lets say that, instead of Japan sending over the cheapo cars, it had decided to send over much higher optioned vehicles, comparably priced to the US produced models at the time.
Over the same time frame (the late 1960's to today), where would Japanese model sales be?
I would bet there wouldn't be much difference than what we see today.
I've often theorized about that. One reason the Japanese excelled back then was that they mainly sent over the types of cars that they did best...small, basic economy cars that had few options. Their biggest achilles heel was that they were horrible rusters. But then, so was a Chevy Vega. And a Ford Pinto had issues of its own. And, up until 1978 at least, Chrysler fought Japanese cars with, well, Japanese cars (Dodge/Plymouth Colt)
However, get up into larger, more luxurious cars, you add variables such as air conditioning and automatic transmissions, two areas where the Japanese tended to do poorly in those days. If the Japanese tried to compete head to head with something like a '77 Impala, I think they would have failed miserably. It would have rusted out in record time, chewed up its automatic transmission even quicker than GM's own THM200, and probably be blowing hot air after a year or two. And even if you ended up with a reliable one, it would probably have been equipped with a small-displacement OHC engine that had good HP for its size, but would have just been a driving experience that most bigger car buyers weren't accustomed to. They'd whine about having to stomp hard on it to make it go, about it revving too fast, etc. And, they'd also complain about the price. As it stands, the biggest car the Japanese sold in the US in 1979 was the Cressida. It was a well-equipped little car, but still a subcompact, and had an MSRP of $9190! Just for comparison, in 1979, my New Yorker 5th Avenue Edition, which is just about as expensive as a Chrysler could get, only stickered for around $12,000 or so. I think a Buick Electra or Olds Ninety-Eight started around $9,000 in 1979, while a Caddy DeVille might've had a base price of around $11,500-12,000.
So, when the Japanese were building subcompacts that cost almost as much as domestic luxury cars, I just can't see them building something fairly big, reliable, AND reasonably priced.
Over time, Japanese cars have evolved more to American tastes, but American tastes have evolved as well. I think if the Japanese tried to go head to head with the domestics in all categories back in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's, they would have failed miserably.
Heck, look at how long it took them to break into the standard sized pickup truck market.
If you have the original struts on the car, I would recommend replacing those with Monroe SensaTrac struts, You'll have a much more controlled ride. The original Delco struts tended to be valved too soft for my tastes.
I wonder how much it would cost to replace all four struts on a Buick these days? I'm not that crazy about how my 2000 Park Ave handles and rides, and it's been suggested to me that I change the struts.
How long is a strut supposed to last, anyway? My 2000 Intrepid still had its original struts at 150,000 miles when it got totaled. And I don't think the struts in my old '88 LeBaron had ever been changed. It made it to around 118,000 when it wheezed its last breath.
I'd be curious to see what percentage of union members drive foreign makes. I personally know several. Several of my teamster and USW friends drive Asian makes.
Also, as much as the unions claim to hate on Walmart, I was always surprised the USW union would provide my FIL with a free Sams Club membership.
I wonder how much it would cost to replace all four struts on a Buick these days? I'm not that crazy about how my 2000 Park Ave handles and rides, and it's been suggested to me that I change the struts.
I replaced the shocks on my Suburban with Monroe shocks (can't remember which type) at about 70k miles and honestly I hardly noticed a difference. But shocks are generally a cheap replacement compared to struts. The springs were just to soft for heavy hauling. It would sag far more in the rear with my camper or boat compared to my Expedition. But the non loaded ride was far smoother.
Struts can be pricey. I'm 700 miles away from 100k on the Expedition and the original shocks seem to be holding up well.
I'd imagine on a car like a Park Ave, soft springs are as much of an issue as the struts. My grandpa has two and I never liked liked the overly soft floaty ride. But his P/A's were not Ultra models, so I don't know what the difference would have been.
Heck, look at how long it took them to break into the standard sized pickup truck market.
That is true. The Tundra is losing ground at a rapid pace. 3rd place Ram Trucks sold 3 times more PU trucks than the Tundra. I just wish Number one Ford would bring their new World Class T6 Ranger to the USA and really kick Toyota and Nissan back to Japan.
If Ford were to start building the T6 diesel and selling it here, I would buy it even if it was built with UAW labor. There I said it...
I bought front strut assemblies (with the coils installed) for our 2007 Caravan 3(?) years ago when I thought Chrysler was heading for bankruptcy. Now with 110K miles on the van, I'm not sure if I should put them on or not, as the van still seems to ride and handle fine (at least for a minivan :P ).
MONROE Part # 71665 Sensa-Trac (Rebate/Promotion Available!) w/o Electronic Suspension; Front $59.89
MONROE Part # 171665 Quick-Strut (Rebate/Promotion Available!) w/o Electronic Suspension; Front - Stocked in outlying warehouse--shipping delayed up to 1 business day $142.79
How long do struts last? About 80,000 mi for my taste. By then my 2003 leSabre had softened more than I liked. I suspect the original valving is 70/30 to make a soften boulevard ride and it wears poorly from there. My replacements were Tenneco-Monroe Sensatracs which I believe were built in Kettering nearby in the same plant that built the original Delcos for 2003 now owned and operated by Tenneco. The housings on the original and replacement struts were identical. But what a difference.
If I were to do it again, I would replace the whole strut with spring instead of just the bearings and strut.
Shocks for Rear: MONROE Part # MA822 Max-Air Air; Air Line, Fittings, and Fill Kit not Included (Rebate/Promotion Available!) Rear $58.79 for PAIR
Same shocks as my 2003 leSabre. Stiff and well controlled. Connects right up to the air hoses for my auto-leveliing original shocks.
Buy struts/shocks yourself and pay the local garage to install and do the alignment. If you buy naked strut for front, you need to buy mount and bellows separately to replace: the quickstrut comes with all those already assembled and the spring in place. Replacing spring requires air wrench for speed.
There are promotion codes for 5% off of Rockauto prices to be found online on some car-oriented forums. I have one since I just purchased new tie rod ends a few weeks back.
That begs the question (and I can only speculate myself): What keeps people buying Japanese (and now, Korean) car products.
I have bought, and continue to buy, vehicles by Japanese manufacturers because they have been far superior to vehicles I have owned by American manufactuers. I used to buy American (Ford and Chrysler) and the vehicles were often in the shop for repairs, usually for $1,000 or more. Then, with some reluctance, I switched to Honda, Toyota and Nissan. They too are in the shop but only for a $35 oil change. The American manufacturers fooled me too many times, but never again.
So, when the Japanese were building subcompacts that cost almost as much as domestic luxury cars, I just can't see them building something fairly big, reliable, AND reasonably priced.
You bring up good points, but I have a couple of comments...
1. VW and BMW certainly weren't noted for having outstanding A/C's, yet they managed to do well. Back in the 1960's and early-mid 70's, VW owners weren't necessarily considered "mainstream". And, I'm not convinced "big" was all that important, as many big-3 car lines were downsizing at the very same time.
2. I agree that the Japanese products probably couldn't go head-to-head across the upper eschelon of the big-3 products at the time, but in the "what-if" scenario, that really doesn't matter.
I guess what I am attempting to say is the way they moved into the US market wasn't the only way to enter. The Japanese could of just as easily (if they had the product at the time) moved in with their more-optioned-out, upper-scale vehicles and probably have been just as successful.
Once again, once the "buy domestic only" psychological block was overcome, there wasn't much else to stop the infusion of Japanese (as well as other foreign makes) makes into the US.
This topic would certainly make an excellent business-case study at some university...
I'd be curious to see what percentage of union members drive foreign makes. I personally know several. Several of my teamster and USW friends drive Asian makes.
Also, as much as the unions claim to hate on Walmart, I was always surprised the USW union would provide my FIL with a free Sams Club membership.
"I do believe what you said probably happened. But I do not believe one bad apple means a bushel of bad apples like you imply. I have had 3 terrible lawyers does that mean all lawyers are mentally incompetent, liars, thief's, scum bags who rip off there clients? Probably not! I'm yet to meet one but I would assume there are good lawyers with a conscious out there.
The problem I have is you make a stereotype that all union people are bad. The ones I knew including my family members were well liked and respected because they worked hard."
I would like to think I am one lawyer with a conscience and treat my clients fairly...I suppose when one guy comes in and brags about beer cans in the chassis, one can only wonder if (or how many) others are doing the same thing...
This will hurt me to the bone to say it, but I will suck up and do it...ALL UAW workers are not bad and I am quite sure that there are some of them who show up for work on time, sober, ready for a day's work for a day's pay, and take pride in their work...(that hurt me to say it, fortunately there is a cloaking device on this post so only rocky can read it and for anyone else I will simply deny I ever said it... :P ...)...my own 2004 Crown Vic just turned 180K miles and runs fairly well, so it can happen...:):):)...even tho my car is not a cream puff like lemko's...
I guess my point is that there may be enough bad apples in the UAW that workmanship quality deteriorated sufficiently that millions of buyer souhgt an alternative product, and the Japanese were here at the right place and the right time...and, if those buyers refuse to ever return to a D3 product, SOMETHING pushed those buyers away to the imports, and I would guess that visible quality problems (bad fitting doors, rattles, squeaks, etc) would alienate the average buyer more than poor design by the engineers, since many folks don't care what their car looks like but noises, squeaks, rattles, doors that don't fit well, etc will annoy anyone and send them to a competing product...on that I blame the UAW that could assemble the car with more care...
If a person were burned by 3 "[non-permissible content removed]" lawyers, would they EVER want to give money to a lawyer again? I mean, would you think, "oh well, I got burned 3 times, but I'll give another lawyer another shot, because it's the right thing to do?" Not voluntarily, I wouldn't think.
That's how some people feel after being burned by (one or more of) the D3.
I can fire a service provider if, part way through the job, he's performing below my standards. I can't do that with a manufactured product - I have to buy, trusting that it's going to meet my standards. If, say, 10 UAW workers assembled my vehicle (made-up number), and 9 of them were good and 1 of them was very poor, I'm going to end up with a vehicle with intolerable issues that will sway me away from that brand for YEARS, if not forever.
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I think I may have made that point in earlier posts...if a small minority (or large minority) of UAW workers screws up the car, you may never buy another D3 car again...that is probably what caused the overall growth of the japanese imports since the 80s...our cars were junk (except lemkos) and theirs were good...actually much better than ours, my own personal experience tells me that...
But I must concede to rocky that there probably are UAW folks who try and do good work...
The difference between lawyers and cars is that the car is made by many workers, some good, some bad, and the bad ones can make the car into junk, overpowering the work of the good ones...
But a lawyer is an individual...each law form is totally different, whereas the D3 all had the same union, so, in a sense, their workers were all the same, i.e. interchangeable...
Just because you had a bad dentist hurt you while cleaning your teeth or drilling a filling, the next dentist is an individual that is not influenced by the previous dentist...but one (or 2 or 3) bad D3-UAW cars and you may jump ship to the imports and never go back to the D3...
I don't think the lawyer analogy is quite accurate, but maybe I am missing your point...
A moment to toot my own horn...I spoke with a potential Ch 7 client today...she left a voice message and I returned her call about 5 minutes later...I answered her questions (about 15 minutes worth) and she told me that she had called 4 other lawyers but I was the only lawyer to return her call, all the other calls were returned by paralegals...she wanted to ask the attorney questions, not the paralegal...so she scheduled with me, telling me that she felt I had taken the time to answer her questions and that she appreciated talking to the one doing the work (me)...maybe that isn't the reason all the time, but I do try to make myself stand out from the crowd as different (and hopefully better) with better personalized service...so while someone may have been burned by 3 [non-permissible content removed] lawyers, we aren't all like that...but when a bad apple makes bad cars, too many cars from that maker have problems...
I guess I just see it differently...altho the part I do see is that if burned by 3 lousy lawyers, how do you tell the good from the bad when you try the next one???
So you are saying that because automation made the worker more productive they deserve a bigger piece of the pie? What about the people that invented and manufactured the automation equipment. And there are UAW workers still making more than $28.53 per hour. The difference between us is this: In my latter years working I felt we were over paid, based on the industry average. I was thankful for what I earned, never felt it something I was entitled to just for showing up on the job.
Gary so you are saying people in manufacturing are being paid fairly despite the COL going through the roof over the last 30 years. In 1980 my father made $13 an hour at a bakery. It was hard work and the average temperature inside the bakery was 140 degrees making bread. That same job 32 years later starts at roughly the same and tops out in the middle teens. You could buy a house on a lake for $50,000-$80,000 those same houses are over $200K today. We could talk about all the increases in insurance - Auto, Automobile, Health Insurance, Food has Tripled, Gas has tripled since, Clothing has tripled, appliances have tripled. Come on Gary you are living in fantasy land if you are trying to convince me that manufacturing workers have gotten a fair shake on pay! :sick:
I agree that is a rip-off. Not of the workers, but of the stock holders. The SEC should be able to control that classic case of Crony Capitalism. Too much I will scratch your back if you scratch mine in the Board rooms of Corporations World wide.
Agree, but also workers can't get a raise? They might get a raise but the company will cut there benefits so what did they really gain?
I understand clearly what happened. The Detroit 3 thanks to the currency manipulation advantage had to cut corners to stay competitive in price usually sacrificing interior quality. If these Japanese cars would of been hit with import tariffs it would of gave GM a level playing field to compete on. You are not going to blow smoke up my tail pipe, busiris on this topic.
This will hurt me to the bone to say it, but I will suck up and do it...ALL UAW workers are not bad and I am quite sure that there are some of them who show up for work on time, sober, ready for a day's work for a day's pay, and take pride in their work...(that hurt me to say it, fortunately there is a cloaking device on this post so only rocky can read it and for anyone else I will simply deny I ever said it... :P ...)...my own 2004 Crown Vic just turned 180K miles and runs fairly well, so it can happen... ...even tho my car is not a cream puff like lemko's...
Well I respect your answer, Bob I know there are bad UAW members but remember there are bad non union people also that never get fired! My old boss showed up on the job for 3 days drunk at a customers place of work in Miami to repair an order and still has a job. My coworker who went a long said they were out at the bars on South Beach until 4 am and went to work at 7 am. You do the math on how sober they were!
I guess my point is that there may be enough bad apples in the UAW that workmanship quality deteriorated sufficiently that millions of buyer souhgt an alternative product, and the Japanese were here at the right place and the right time...and, if those buyers refuse to ever return to a D3 product, SOMETHING pushed those buyers away to the imports, and I would guess that visible quality problems (bad fitting doors, rattles, squeaks, etc) would alienate the average buyer more than poor design by the engineers, since many folks don't care what their car looks like but noises, squeaks, rattles, doors that don't fit well, etc will annoy anyone and send them to a competing product...on that I blame the UAW that could assemble the car with more care...
Doors that would not fit right was an engineering defect. My ex father in law had a 1999 GMC Sierra half ton Z-71 and the door hinges would become weak and start to sag. The UAW workers had nothing to do with those parts. They were designed piss poorly! His Ford F-150 was a year newer and went through as much abuse and the door hinges were rock solid. GM with the new GMT-900 platform addressed all the flaws of the GMT-800 and made a world class truck! All D3 Trucks are the best in the world! They make the finest vehicles for the price in the world now and it shows in the automotive reviews. Do the UAW workers get credit for today's modern vehicles? Nope!!! They do a great job as they did before but the cars are engineered better today than they were 10 and 20 years ago. Our productivity gains has helped closed the gap on currency manipulation done by the Asian automakers. Also with more automobiles being made here by the Asians the D3 are able to compete on a more level playing field. It is still far from fair but it's much better than it was!
-Rocky
P.S.
180K on your Crown Vic???? If you keep it well maintained I see no reason why you couldn't squeeze another 70,000+ out of her!
If a person were burned by 3 "[non-permissible content removed]" lawyers, would they EVER want to give money to a lawyer again? I mean, would you think, "oh well, I got burned 3 times, but I'll give another lawyer another shot, because it's the right thing to do?" Not voluntarily, I wouldn't think.
That's how some people feel after being burned by (one or more of) the D3.
Well unlike a car I have no choice but to buy/hire another one if I ever want to see my kids!!!! :sick: I did not get my money back on the first two and I called several lawyers and none of them would sue the other so I had to cut my losses for a job not well done. With a bad car you can at least lemon law it!!! The lawyers sure do take care of one another. They are the strongest union in America, right next to the police fraternity! Like I told Bob despite having bad luck with attorney's I do not think everyone is bad! I just hope and pray the next one I hire won't screw me over. I however have grown a lot wiser and before they get any money from me again I will have language in there that if they do not complete the job I can get a full refund! I am not getting hosed again!!!
I can fire a service provider if, part way through the job, he's performing below my standards. I can't do that with a manufactured product - I have to buy, trusting that it's going to meet my standards. If, say, 10 UAW workers assembled my vehicle (made-up number), and 9 of them were good and 1 of them was very poor, I'm going to end up with a vehicle with intolerable issues that will sway me away from that brand for YEARS, if not forever.
The problem with your assessment is these vehicles are quality inspected multiple times and even test driven. Do some defects make it out the door? I'm sure there are things that are missed but I can tell you that building a car today and constantly improving processes has increased quality and decreased quality issues. These new products are tested multiple times before they hit the streets. It's not like the old days. You guys see and post pictures of test mules here on Edmunds.com (Insideline) one of my favorite parts of edmunds. I love reading about new product that is "secret" in nature!!!
My ultimate car would be a 250+ hp new Chevy Cruze Diesel w/ XWD :shades:
Well if you ever move to the corrupt state of Texas, Bob (Don't do it) but if you do and get bar certified I'll hire you as my attorney!!! I think you would be shocked at how backwards that system down there is! I highly recommend all males who live in Texas, to get fixed!!!
That same job 32 years later starts at roughly the same and tops out in the middle teens. You could buy a house on a lake for $50,000-$80,000 those same houses are over $200K today.
Thank the Democrats that refused to send back 3 million illegals in the 1980s and now close to 50 million with all the anchor babies. They will work in a kitchen that is 150 degrees for minimum wage and not worry about having a nice house on the lake. Your UAW family supported the WRONG party. The Party of guilt and shame that believed those poor illegals just wanted a piece of the action. They were illegal then. They are illegal now. The Latino Vote is killing jobs and the standard of living.
Well if that is the case then why are manufacturing wages in Texas, stagnant when it is ran by a bunch from your party? I agree the illegal alien issue is a major component and I am "conservative" on that issue but even people from your party are pro illegal
You know when I retired in 2006 I took a vacation to the Hill Country of TX. It was pretty and very livable. What scared me off was the high price of property and the horrible property tax. I could buy a nice place on a lake for $300k. And pay $7000 per year in taxes. No thanks. And the bugs were not that pleasant. I will live with the liberals here or move to Hawaii.
Conservative business men are not anti illegal. But for a much smarter reason. Greed and higher profits. The Democrats are too stupid to see that. They live with a guilt complex for their affluent lifestyles. Then they think if they are nice to the Latinos they will vote for them to keep their cushy jobs in government. The bottom line is the Middle Class American has been screwed by both parties when it comes to protecting our borders.
I agree 100% and why do you think I support former 4x Congressman and Former Gov. of Louisiana, Charles Elson "Buddy" Roemer III as much as I do? :shades:
So you blame the UAW workers for your problems with your car? I would hope a much more expensive car like an Audi would hold up better than a Neon. You are comparing apples to oranges. A car that costs twice if not 3x as much as the Neon, SMH! Are you sure your Neon was even built by UAW workers because I do know a good portion of them were built in Toluca, Mexico
I'm honestly not sure if I got a Mexican or American Dodge. Either way... I blame the Big 3.
I don't believe it to be as apples and oranges as you would like to. First, in 1994 dollars, a car costing twice as much in 2006 really isn't all that much more (30K vs. 15K out the door). Certainly not 3 times as much (Neon Sport fully loaded).
Secondly, even discounting inflation, shouldn't I expect the American car to be half as good as the A3; since it cost over half as much?
It had a bit over half the HP and torque, which is positive I guess, but it got about the same gas mileage though; not good for Dodge.
It had 10 rattles at 30K miles, 20 rattles at 40K miles, 40 rattles at 50K miles, and 100 rattles at 60K miles. The thing became a rattle trap... maybe they put 36K mile glue on the beer cans! :P
So if the performance was half as good, why should the durability be half as good? Shouldn't the price be 1/4 then instead of 1/2?
The truth is the durability isn't even 1/10th as good as the Audi!
The truth is a 1994/95 Civic would of held up just fine, cost only a thousand or 2 more, and would have resold at 65K miles for 6K more than the Peon.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The Detroit 3 thanks to the currency manipulation advantage had to cut corners to stay competitive in price usually sacrificing interior quality.
Correction:
The Detroit 3 perhaps in part due to curency manipulation chose to cut corners to stay competitive on price, usually sacrificing interior, exterior, powertrain, and accessory quality, basically, all quality suffered.
They didn't have to; they chose to suck.
And if the playing field was really not level, then why didn't the Big 3 forfeit the car business to the Japanese and stop making cars all together rather than play an unfair game by screwing over their customers?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
And if the playing field was really not level, then why didn't the Big 3 forfeit the car business to the Japanese and stop making cars all together rather than play an unfair game by screwing over their customers?
Because they were hoping our government would wise up and enforce our trade laws. The Japanese placed barriers on trade but we allowed them to dump on our market. As far as your argument goes on countering my argument on the D3 cutting corners goes we both know consumers factor in price. IF GM would of charged $3-4K more for the car they would not of sold them. When I was selling cars I experienced this first hand. I would lose Saturn sales to Mazda over $1200 bucks. Would show them the invoice to prove I had no more room to go.
Also as far as your theory on Audi vs. Neon it is a lot cheaper to start adding premium materials. i.e. For example cars need seats. The Neon received a $200 seat while adding getting a premium seat might cost you $300 dollars So the cost difference is only $100 dollars more to go premium but since you are going to charge twice as much you better put in better stuff. The profit margin is much greater on a Audi A6 than a Neon so they have more room to work with. You go ahead and blame the UAW for your Neon issues but they aren't the ones engineering the cars and it is quite unfair to compare a car that cost $15K vs one that cost $35 or 40 Thousand, SMH!!! :confuse: Also car quality has came a long way since 1994 even for Audi!!!!
For all my political junkies, like Fintail, Imidazol97, Gagrice, Dieselone, Lemko, Marsha7, etc......I started a Facebook political thread to replace our "Off Topic Forum" that went to "Read Only.....Would love to keep in contact with you guys.......Hope you guys come say hello and "Like" it if you have Facebook pages :shades:
In 1980 my father made $13 an hour at a bakery. It was hard work and the average temperature inside the bakery was 140 degrees making bread.
I find that hard to believe. My dad was the manager of a grocery store and didn't make that much in 1980. In '79 my grandpa retired with 43 years of service from Repuplic Steel in Gary, In. He was earning top rate in the mill and he was in the eleven dollar an hour range.
I can tell you, a modern day bakery is nothing like one from 1980. I've toured a few over the years.
The problem with your assessment is these vehicles are quality inspected multiple times and even test driven. Do some defects make it out the door? I'm sure there are things that are missed but I can tell you that building a car today and constantly improving processes has increased quality and decreased quality issues.
Last year, I posted pics of my wife's brand new '11 Ford Taurus (company car). The panel/door alignment is so bad Fintail suggested it may have been wrecked prior to delivery. The build quality on this car is horrible and embarrassing bad for a car that's primarily a new design (sheet metal anyway). The fit-n-finish issues don't stop on the exterior either. Plus it has an irritating pull to the left since day one, which the dealer has failed to correct so far, it will go in for a 3rd time in the next week or so.
Maybe the union transport driver dropped it off the trailer, I don't know. I keep hearing how the new domestic cars are as good as any, unfortunately, my experience doesn't support it. Trust me, I wish it did.
I like Ford nearly as much as you like GM, and I primarily drive domestic vehicles. But I've been generally disappointed overall with my domestic ownership experience.
Comments
Absolutely wrong. The small cars that were imported with almost no options were termed econoboxes for a reason--they were cheaper than the US cars, which for the most part were larger, because of dumping and because of currency manipulation.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Your Neon was probably built by the UAW in Belvidere Illinois. Did you hear the beer cans rattling in the fender wells? :shades: :lemon: I see no excuse for shoddy workmanship in the 1990s by UAW. According to Rocky the workers did great all during the Clinton years. Unless maybe they did not get the memo that they were not supposed to inhale the pot.
I wonder if the UAW was doing so well under a Clinton regime, Why they nearly bankrupted GM with a long strike in 1998? Greedy leeches would be my guess. I am big on buying American made products. My 2005 GMC made in the USA PU will likely be the Last UAW built vehicle for me. I can only think the difference between my Sequoia and the GMC Sierra that were both built in Indiana is the UAW workmanship on the GMC was poor. My door never fit right and the dealer could not correct it. It should have never left the factory that way. GM and C Buyers beware. My made in Mexico Suburban was one of my favorite vehicles. My Princeton Indiana built Sequoia is a very nice vehicle. Four and a half years and the only failure was the made in India Denso NAV unit, covered by warranty.
Their lowered standards of quality is what did them in...your UAW wasn't smart enough to put 2 + 2 together and realize that if you make enough junk, people will desert you in a heartbeat, and they did...
There simply were not enough lemkos who bought cars that were accidentally made correctly, and the imports have made billions off us by simply making a car better than the UAW could, which, by the way, is not too difficult...after all, if they can teach illiterate Mexicans in 3rd world Mexico to assemble cars, just how much skill do these workers have???...they were idiots making bad cars, and it took years for enough folks to desert them for a quality product...
I was referring more to the floating, isolated-from-the-road feel Detroit is known for. Though, it is big compared to my Sentra :P .
We've been getting around 26 mpg with it since we got from the FIL, so no complaints there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good suggestion. Thanks!
In the beginning, there was a lot of truth to that. I remember "dumping" and a devalued yen being bantered about quite often (sound familiar? China?)
So, I agree in a large way that Japan was able to enter the market more easily with its "econoboxes", due to pricing (and the Iranian oil embargo raising oil prices), but the average car price in 2010 was on the order of $28K... hardly the price range of an "econobox" today.
That begs the question (and I can only speculate myself): What keeps people buying Japanese (and now, Korean) car products?
Many in the USA have only owned big-3 products, and are reluctant to change, even today, to an import brand. Yet, many more didn't feel that compulsion to stay domestic, and today that aspect gets weaker by the year.
Changing up what "could have been" for a moment... Lets say that, instead of Japan sending over the cheapo cars, it had decided to send over much higher optioned vehicles, comparably priced to the US produced models at the time.
Over the same time frame (the late 1960's to today), where would Japanese model sales be?
I would bet there wouldn't be much difference than what we see today.
50 years is 1/2 the lifespan of GM. I would bet that the acceptance today would be about what it currently is, although the "growth in acceptance/movement" curve would be steeper and more compressed.
Shipping in cheap models at the beginning is a great economic plan for an automaker, as it allows it to build a dealer network and get more people into its cars.
BMW, AUDI and MB have pretty good acceptance rates today, and yet they aren't noted as ever having had the "econobox" accusations.
At least, thats how I see it...
That's what happened in my family; my parents owned nothing but Chevys, Fords, and one Lincoln(a Mark 7 LSC, which wasn't bad at all). My wife's side of the family were Buick owners. Aside from my much-loved 1999 Wrangler, it is unlikely I'll buy another D 2.5 vehicle- new or used(my son or I might buy a '60s vintage musclecar someday, but that's about it). And before you say I haven't looked a recent Detroit products, note that just last week I test drove a 2012 Mustang GT, fully expecting to love it, but it left me strangely unimpressed.
And no, the fact that the UAW built it had no influence on my evaluation...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Isn't that what happened???...with the import quotas, before they had plants here making all the cars they do now, I thought the quotas is what pushed them into Lexus and Acura and Infiniti...if they were going to be limited to the cars they could import, they might as well attack caddy and lincoln instead of Pintos and Vegas...
berri: "However, his big failure was bean counting his product lines into near identical vehicles."...that might have been his biggest flaw from a capitalist point of view...from the UAW viewpoint, any robot meant a lost UAW job...but the robots won anyway, over the long term...
YTD 2012 Luxury
Mercedes-38,379
BMW-37,609
Lexus- 28,952
Cadillac-20,429
Audi-17,885
Infiniti-16,035
Lincoln-12,033
I do believe what you said probably happened. But I do not believe one bad apple means a bushel of bad apples like you imply. I have had 3 terrible lawyers does that mean all lawyers are mentally incompetent, liars, thief's, scum bags who rip off there clients? Probably not! I'm yet to meet one but I would assume there are good lawyers with a conscious out there.
The problem I have is you make a stereotype that all union people are bad. The ones I knew including my family members were well liked and respected because they worked hard. I had a uncle who was lazy and was the total opposite of my grandfather but he ended up getting hurt driving a cushman over a chuck hole crushing his spine and will probably end up in a wheel chair. GM management did not corridor off the area and he got hurt. He wasn't aware of it's existence since he worked in another part of the plant.
My point is this, Bob....You have lazy workers in non union shops also and companies do not discipline them. When I was working at a furniture manufacturer (non-union) we had plenty of folks that did not pull there own weight but because they kissed enough butt nothing was ever done! They spent more time reporting in the Supervisor and taking credit for a job well done than working. We had one guy we use to say "he is a legend in his own mind"
As far as Roger Smith goes he was one of the worst CEO's of all time. He made the quote that "The American Public will buy whatever we make for them" attitude like Roger Smith.
Also I have another bone to pick with you.....
If American workers were rewarded for 100 percent of their increases in labor productivity between 1980 and 2008—as they were during the middle part of the 20th century—average wages would be $28.53 per hour—42.7 percent higher than the average real wage in 2008.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2009/02/18/172608/reich-wages/
4 years later we are looking at roughly $30 bucks an hour? CEO pay is at 475x higher than the hourly employee and manufacturing jobs are paying at the same rate they were 30 years ago! What is wrong with this picture? How did attorney rates go up so much and not real wages for the blue collar?
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Absolutely wrong. The small cars that were imported with almost no options were termed econoboxes for a reason--they were cheaper than the US cars, which for the most part were larger, because of dumping and because of currency manipulation.
Well said, imidazol97
-Rocky
-Rocky
So you are saying that because automation made the worker more productive they deserve a bigger piece of the pie? What about the people that invented and manufactured the automation equipment. And there are UAW workers still making more than $28.53 per hour. The difference between us is this: In my latter years working I felt we were over paid, based on the industry average. I was thankful for what I earned, never felt it something I was entitled to just for showing up on the job.
CEO pay is at 475x higher than the hourly employee and manufacturing jobs are paying at the same rate they were 30 years ago! What is wrong with this picture?
I agree that is a rip-off. Not of the workers, but of the stock holders. The SEC should be able to control that classic case of Crony Capitalism. Too much I will scratch your back if you scratch mine in the Board rooms of Corporations World wide.
The point I was addressing was that, regardless of whether the Japanese (or Koreans, or Chinese) entered the US market with the cheapest, bare bones models or upscaled models (and cars like the Camry, Accord, and Altima fit that category) the present day scenario would look much the same.
Again, there can be certain advantages to entering the market with cheaper vehicles, but once the "psychological lock" is broken that binds the buying population to domestically made products, which in this case is cars, price becomes irrelevant as long as the product is competitive.
Now, you can "translate" those comments into the "abuse of the American autoworker" if you wish, but that has nothing to do with product acceptance.
All I'm saying is that those who wish to believe the current status would be far different if the Japanese had not entered the US with bare-boned models at a cheap price really don't have a clear understanding of what actually happened.
Over the same time frame (the late 1960's to today), where would Japanese model sales be?
I would bet there wouldn't be much difference than what we see today.
I've often theorized about that. One reason the Japanese excelled back then was that they mainly sent over the types of cars that they did best...small, basic economy cars that had few options. Their biggest achilles heel was that they were horrible rusters. But then, so was a Chevy Vega. And a Ford Pinto had issues of its own. And, up until 1978 at least, Chrysler fought Japanese cars with, well, Japanese cars (Dodge/Plymouth Colt)
However, get up into larger, more luxurious cars, you add variables such as air conditioning and automatic transmissions, two areas where the Japanese tended to do poorly in those days. If the Japanese tried to compete head to head with something like a '77 Impala, I think they would have failed miserably. It would have rusted out in record time, chewed up its automatic transmission even quicker than GM's own THM200, and probably be blowing hot air after a year or two. And even if you ended up with a reliable one, it would probably have been equipped with a small-displacement OHC engine that had good HP for its size, but would have just been a driving experience that most bigger car buyers weren't accustomed to. They'd whine about having to stomp hard on it to make it go, about it revving too fast, etc. And, they'd also complain about the price. As it stands, the biggest car the Japanese sold in the US in 1979 was the Cressida. It was a well-equipped little car, but still a subcompact, and had an MSRP of $9190! Just for comparison, in 1979, my New Yorker 5th Avenue Edition, which is just about as expensive as a Chrysler could get, only stickered for around $12,000 or so. I think a Buick Electra or Olds Ninety-Eight started around $9,000 in 1979, while a Caddy DeVille might've had a base price of around $11,500-12,000.
So, when the Japanese were building subcompacts that cost almost as much as domestic luxury cars, I just can't see them building something fairly big, reliable, AND reasonably priced.
Over time, Japanese cars have evolved more to American tastes, but American tastes have evolved as well. I think if the Japanese tried to go head to head with the domestics in all categories back in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's, they would have failed miserably.
Heck, look at how long it took them to break into the standard sized pickup truck market.
I wonder how much it would cost to replace all four struts on a Buick these days? I'm not that crazy about how my 2000 Park Ave handles and rides, and it's been suggested to me that I change the struts.
How long is a strut supposed to last, anyway? My 2000 Intrepid still had its original struts at 150,000 miles when it got totaled. And I don't think the struts in my old '88 LeBaron had ever been changed. It made it to around 118,000 when it wheezed its last breath.
Also, as much as the unions claim to hate on Walmart, I was always surprised the USW union would provide my FIL with a free Sams Club membership.
I replaced the shocks on my Suburban with Monroe shocks (can't remember which type) at about 70k miles and honestly I hardly noticed a difference. But shocks are generally a cheap replacement compared to struts. The springs were just to soft for heavy hauling. It would sag far more in the rear with my camper or boat compared to my Expedition. But the non loaded ride was far smoother.
Struts can be pricey. I'm 700 miles away from 100k on the Expedition and the original shocks seem to be holding up well.
I'd imagine on a car like a Park Ave, soft springs are as much of an issue as the struts. My grandpa has two and I never liked liked the overly soft floaty ride. But his P/A's were not Ultra models, so I don't know what the difference would have been.
That is true. The Tundra is losing ground at a rapid pace. 3rd place Ram Trucks sold 3 times more PU trucks than the Tundra. I just wish Number one Ford would bring their new World Class T6 Ranger to the USA and really kick Toyota and Nissan back to Japan.
If Ford were to start building the T6 diesel and selling it here, I would buy it even if it was built with UAW labor.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/09/first-drive-2012-ford-ranger.html
w/o Electronic Suspension; Front
$59.89
MONROE Part # 171665 Quick-Strut (Rebate/Promotion Available!)
w/o Electronic Suspension; Front
- Stocked in outlying warehouse--shipping delayed up to 1 business day
$142.79
How long do struts last? About 80,000 mi for my taste. By then my 2003 leSabre had softened more than I liked. I suspect the original valving is 70/30 to make a soften boulevard ride and it wears poorly from there. My replacements were Tenneco-Monroe Sensatracs which I believe were built in Kettering nearby in the same plant that built the original Delcos for 2003 now owned and operated by Tenneco. The housings on the original and replacement struts were identical. But what a difference.
If I were to do it again, I would replace the whole strut with spring instead of just the bearings and strut.
Shocks for Rear:
MONROE Part # MA822 Max-Air Air; Air Line, Fittings, and Fill Kit not Included (Rebate/Promotion Available!)
Rear $58.79 for PAIR
Same shocks as my 2003 leSabre. Stiff and well controlled. Connects right up to the air hoses for my auto-leveliing original shocks.
Note on Rockauto there's a link to a rebate for $50 for the two struts and the pair of shocks through April 30.
http://www.monroe.com/assets/downloads/promotions/Monroe_SafetyFirst_Rebate_US_W- - - EB.pdf
Buy struts/shocks yourself and pay the local garage to install and do the alignment. If you buy naked strut for front, you need to buy mount and bellows separately to replace: the quickstrut comes with all those already assembled and the spring in place. Replacing spring requires air wrench for speed.
There are promotion codes for 5% off of Rockauto prices to be found online on some car-oriented forums. I have one since I just purchased new tie rod ends a few weeks back.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have bought, and continue to buy, vehicles by Japanese manufacturers because they have been far superior to vehicles I have owned by American manufactuers. I used to buy American (Ford and Chrysler) and the vehicles were often in the shop for repairs, usually for $1,000 or more. Then, with some reluctance, I switched to Honda, Toyota and Nissan. They too are in the shop but only for a $35 oil change. The American manufacturers fooled me too many times, but never again.
You bring up good points, but I have a couple of comments...
1. VW and BMW certainly weren't noted for having outstanding A/C's, yet they managed to do well. Back in the 1960's and early-mid 70's, VW owners weren't necessarily considered "mainstream". And, I'm not convinced "big" was all that important, as many big-3 car lines were downsizing at the very same time.
2. I agree that the Japanese products probably couldn't go head-to-head across the upper eschelon of the big-3 products at the time, but in the "what-if" scenario, that really doesn't matter.
I guess what I am attempting to say is the way they moved into the US market wasn't the only way to enter. The Japanese could of just as easily (if they had the product at the time) moved in with their more-optioned-out, upper-scale vehicles and probably have been just as successful.
Once again, once the "buy domestic only" psychological block was overcome, there wasn't much else to stop the infusion of Japanese (as well as other foreign makes) makes into the US.
This topic would certainly make an excellent business-case study at some university...
Also, as much as the unions claim to hate on Walmart, I was always surprised the USW union would provide my FIL with a free Sams Club membership.
http://walmartstores.com/pressroom/statebystate/state.aspx?st=mi
Makes you wonder who's shopping at these stores...
The problem I have is you make a stereotype that all union people are bad. The ones I knew including my family members were well liked and respected because they worked hard."
I would like to think I am one lawyer with a conscience and treat my clients fairly...I suppose when one guy comes in and brags about beer cans in the chassis, one can only wonder if (or how many) others are doing the same thing...
This will hurt me to the bone to say it, but I will suck up and do it...ALL UAW workers are not bad and I am quite sure that there are some of them who show up for work on time, sober, ready for a day's work for a day's pay, and take pride in their work...(that hurt me to say it, fortunately there is a cloaking device on this post so only rocky can read it and for anyone else I will simply deny I ever said it... :P ...)...my own 2004 Crown Vic just turned 180K miles and runs fairly well, so it can happen...:):):)...even tho my car is not a cream puff like lemko's...
I guess my point is that there may be enough bad apples in the UAW that workmanship quality deteriorated sufficiently that millions of buyer souhgt an alternative product, and the Japanese were here at the right place and the right time...and, if those buyers refuse to ever return to a D3 product, SOMETHING pushed those buyers away to the imports, and I would guess that visible quality problems (bad fitting doors, rattles, squeaks, etc) would alienate the average buyer more than poor design by the engineers, since many folks don't care what their car looks like but noises, squeaks, rattles, doors that don't fit well, etc will annoy anyone and send them to a competing product...on that I blame the UAW that could assemble the car with more care...
That's how some people feel after being burned by (one or more of) the D3.
I can fire a service provider if, part way through the job, he's performing below my standards. I can't do that with a manufactured product - I have to buy, trusting that it's going to meet my standards. If, say, 10 UAW workers assembled my vehicle (made-up number), and 9 of them were good and 1 of them was very poor, I'm going to end up with a vehicle with intolerable issues that will sway me away from that brand for YEARS, if not forever.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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But I must concede to rocky that there probably are UAW folks who try and do good work...
The difference between lawyers and cars is that the car is made by many workers, some good, some bad, and the bad ones can make the car into junk, overpowering the work of the good ones...
But a lawyer is an individual...each law form is totally different, whereas the D3 all had the same union, so, in a sense, their workers were all the same, i.e. interchangeable...
Just because you had a bad dentist hurt you while cleaning your teeth or drilling a filling, the next dentist is an individual that is not influenced by the previous dentist...but one (or 2 or 3) bad D3-UAW cars and you may jump ship to the imports and never go back to the D3...
I don't think the lawyer analogy is quite accurate, but maybe I am missing your point...
A moment to toot my own horn...I spoke with a potential Ch 7 client today...she left a voice message and I returned her call about 5 minutes later...I answered her questions (about 15 minutes worth) and she told me that she had called 4 other lawyers but I was the only lawyer to return her call, all the other calls were returned by paralegals...she wanted to ask the attorney questions, not the paralegal...so she scheduled with me, telling me that she felt I had taken the time to answer her questions and that she appreciated talking to the one doing the work (me)...maybe that isn't the reason all the time, but I do try to make myself stand out from the crowd as different (and hopefully better) with better personalized service...so while someone may have been burned by 3 [non-permissible content removed] lawyers, we aren't all like that...but when a bad apple makes bad cars, too many cars from that maker have problems...
I guess I just see it differently...altho the part I do see is that if burned by 3 lousy lawyers, how do you tell the good from the bad when you try the next one???
Gary so you are saying people in manufacturing are being paid fairly despite the COL going through the roof over the last 30 years. In 1980 my father made $13 an hour at a bakery. It was hard work and the average temperature inside the bakery was 140 degrees making bread. That same job 32 years later starts at roughly the same and tops out in the middle teens. You could buy a house on a lake for $50,000-$80,000 those same houses are over $200K today. We could talk about all the increases in insurance - Auto, Automobile, Health Insurance, Food has Tripled, Gas has tripled since, Clothing has tripled, appliances have tripled. Come on Gary you are living in fantasy land if you are trying to convince me that manufacturing workers have gotten a fair shake on pay! :sick:
I agree that is a rip-off. Not of the workers, but of the stock holders. The SEC should be able to control that classic case of Crony Capitalism. Too much I will scratch your back if you scratch mine in the Board rooms of Corporations World wide.
Agree, but also workers can't get a raise? They might get a raise but the company will cut there benefits so what did they really gain?
-Rocky
-Rocky
Well I respect your answer, Bob
I guess my point is that there may be enough bad apples in the UAW that workmanship quality deteriorated sufficiently that millions of buyer souhgt an alternative product, and the Japanese were here at the right place and the right time...and, if those buyers refuse to ever return to a D3 product, SOMETHING pushed those buyers away to the imports, and I would guess that visible quality problems (bad fitting doors, rattles, squeaks, etc) would alienate the average buyer more than poor design by the engineers, since many folks don't care what their car looks like but noises, squeaks, rattles, doors that don't fit well, etc will annoy anyone and send them to a competing product...on that I blame the UAW that could assemble the car with more care...
Doors that would not fit right was an engineering defect. My ex father in law had a 1999 GMC Sierra half ton Z-71 and the door hinges would become weak and start to sag. The UAW workers had nothing to do with those parts. They were designed piss poorly! His Ford F-150 was a year newer and went through as much abuse and the door hinges were rock solid. GM with the new GMT-900 platform addressed all the flaws of the GMT-800 and made a world class truck! All D3 Trucks are the best in the world! They make the finest vehicles for the price in the world now and it shows in the automotive reviews. Do the UAW workers get credit for today's modern vehicles? Nope!!! They do a great job as they did before but the cars are engineered better today than they were 10 and 20 years ago. Our productivity gains has helped closed the gap on currency manipulation done by the Asian automakers. Also with more automobiles being made here by the Asians the D3 are able to compete on a more level playing field. It is still far from fair but it's much better than it was!
-Rocky
P.S.
180K on your Crown Vic???? If you keep it well maintained I see no reason why you couldn't squeeze another 70,000+ out of her!
That's how some people feel after being burned by (one or more of) the D3.
Well unlike a car I have no choice but to buy/hire another one if I ever want to see my kids!!!! :sick: I did not get my money back on the first two and I called several lawyers and none of them would sue the other so I had to cut my losses for a job not well done. With a bad car you can at least lemon law it!!! The lawyers sure do take care of one another. They are the strongest union in America, right next to the police fraternity!
I can fire a service provider if, part way through the job, he's performing below my standards. I can't do that with a manufactured product - I have to buy, trusting that it's going to meet my standards. If, say, 10 UAW workers assembled my vehicle (made-up number), and 9 of them were good and 1 of them was very poor, I'm going to end up with a vehicle with intolerable issues that will sway me away from that brand for YEARS, if not forever.
The problem with your assessment is these vehicles are quality inspected multiple times and even test driven. Do some defects make it out the door? I'm sure there are things that are missed but I can tell you that building a car today and constantly improving processes has increased quality and decreased quality issues. These new products are tested multiple times before they hit the streets. It's not like the old days. You guys see and post pictures of test mules here on Edmunds.com (Insideline) one of my favorite parts of edmunds.
My ultimate car would be a 250+ hp new Chevy Cruze Diesel w/ XWD :shades:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Thank the Democrats that refused to send back 3 million illegals in the 1980s and now close to 50 million with all the anchor babies. They will work in a kitchen that is 150 degrees for minimum wage and not worry about having a nice house on the lake. Your UAW family supported the WRONG party. The Party of guilt and shame that believed those poor illegals just wanted a piece of the action. They were illegal then. They are illegal now. The Latino Vote is killing jobs and the standard of living.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I'm honestly not sure if I got a Mexican or American Dodge. Either way... I blame the Big 3.
I don't believe it to be as apples and oranges as you would like to. First, in 1994 dollars, a car costing twice as much in 2006 really isn't all that much more (30K vs. 15K out the door). Certainly not 3 times as much (Neon Sport fully loaded).
Secondly, even discounting inflation, shouldn't I expect the American car to be half as good as the A3; since it cost over half as much?
It had a bit over half the HP and torque, which is positive I guess, but it got about the same gas mileage though; not good for Dodge.
It had 10 rattles at 30K miles, 20 rattles at 40K miles, 40 rattles at 50K miles, and 100 rattles at 60K miles. The thing became a rattle trap... maybe they put 36K mile glue on the beer cans! :P
So if the performance was half as good, why should the durability be half as good? Shouldn't the price be 1/4 then instead of 1/2?
The truth is the durability isn't even 1/10th as good as the Audi!
The truth is a 1994/95 Civic would of held up just fine, cost only a thousand or 2 more, and would have resold at 65K miles for 6K more than the Peon.
Correction:
The Detroit 3 perhaps in part due to curency manipulation chose to cut corners to stay competitive on price, usually sacrificing interior, exterior, powertrain, and accessory quality, basically, all quality suffered.
They didn't have to; they chose to suck.
And if the playing field was really not level, then why didn't the Big 3 forfeit the car business to the Japanese and stop making cars all together rather than play an unfair game by screwing over their customers?
Because they were hoping our government would wise up and enforce our trade laws. The Japanese placed barriers on trade but we allowed them to dump on our market. As far as your argument goes on countering my argument on the D3 cutting corners goes we both know consumers factor in price. IF GM would of charged $3-4K more for the car they would not of sold them. When I was selling cars I experienced this first hand. I would lose Saturn sales to Mazda over $1200 bucks. Would show them the invoice to prove I had no more room to go.
Also as far as your theory on Audi vs. Neon it is a lot cheaper to start adding premium materials. i.e. For example cars need seats. The Neon received a $200 seat while adding getting a premium seat might cost you $300 dollars So the cost difference is only $100 dollars more to go premium but since you are going to charge twice as much you better put in better stuff. The profit margin is much greater on a Audi A6 than a Neon so they have more room to work with. You go ahead and blame the UAW for your Neon issues but they aren't the ones engineering the cars and it is quite unfair to compare a car that cost $15K vs one that cost $35 or 40 Thousand, SMH!!! :confuse:
Also car quality has came a long way since 1994 even for Audi!!!!
For all my political junkies, like Fintail, Imidazol97, Gagrice, Dieselone, Lemko, Marsha7, etc......I started a Facebook political thread to replace our "Off Topic Forum" that went to "Read Only.....Would love to keep in contact with you guys.......Hope you guys come say hello and "Like" it if you have Facebook pages :shades:
https://www.facebook.com/UnitedStatesOfAmericaPoliticalIssues
-Rocky
-Rocky
I find that hard to believe. My dad was the manager of a grocery store and didn't make that much in 1980. In '79 my grandpa retired with 43 years of service from Repuplic Steel in Gary, In. He was earning top rate in the mill and he was in the eleven dollar an hour range.
I can tell you, a modern day bakery is nothing like one from 1980. I've toured a few over the years.
Last year, I posted pics of my wife's brand new '11 Ford Taurus (company car). The panel/door alignment is so bad Fintail suggested it may have been wrecked prior to delivery. The build quality on this car is horrible and embarrassing bad for a car that's primarily a new design (sheet metal anyway). The fit-n-finish issues don't stop on the exterior either. Plus it has an irritating pull to the left since day one, which the dealer has failed to correct so far, it will go in for a 3rd time in the next week or so.
Maybe the union transport driver dropped it off the trailer, I don't know. I keep hearing how the new domestic cars are as good as any, unfortunately, my experience doesn't support it. Trust me, I wish it did.
I like Ford nearly as much as you like GM, and I primarily drive domestic vehicles. But I've been generally disappointed overall with my domestic ownership experience.