Many still think it was worth it. I have to wonder how much they paid in Federal Income Tax? Then they had the nerve to tell us GM paid up what they owe US tax payers. Time for a reality check at the UAW.
So the UAW is aided and coddled by the taxpayer...just like our beloved 1%ers and the corporate entities linked to them.
I'm sitting in the heart of a solidly anti-union red state, and it's not exactly the definition of prosperity and potential, either...unless you are public sector management or daddy gave you the family business or a free ride. Seems like there's no way to win these days.
I'm sitting in the heart of a solidly anti-union red state
Are you still in WA? I thought it was blue up there. :surprise:
I don't know, Seattle looks pretty prosperous to me relative to much of the rest of the country. Apologies in advance if that's not the general area you are referring to.
Yeah, I am in GA right now. Seattle is about as much of a red state area as LA ...in fact, if he is reading this, I am in marsha07s town...
All areas have their pros and cons, Seattle and GA included. Doesn't seem unions or not really impact a lot when the big picture is taken into account.
When you take into consideration what Walker did in Wisconsin, it is no big deal. The Federal law on Unions are regulated by the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947. The Wisconsin legislature did not impact those Unions anymore than the Federal Employee Unions. It is just political BS. States without RTW are going to lose jobs, and states with will gain what few sustainable jobs that are coming out way in this NWO. The days of paying some monkey $30 per hour to put on lug nuts is in the History books. And with Obama giving 800,000 illegals a green light to look for jobs today it will get even tougher for US citizens looking for a job.
I don't see any real sustainable jobs being created in RTW states that are coming from others. If that was the case, the standard of living and many human development indices would be better. Really, the days of family wage jobs for those without astronomically priced education are waning.
I do agree about the political BS, and Obama has made an especially cynical political move...desperate times and desperate measures, I guess. I also heard he might jump out and legalize pot right before the election - union workers smoking up before their shift might make for some interesting products :shades:
Ah, he just tried to steal Rubio's thunder on the Dream Act, not to mention Jeb and Haley. Reminds me of Apple and Microsoft and Google trying to out-announce each other two weeks before their various developer conferences or electronic shows.
Not looking too rosy for the UAW though - if they don't make headway in Canton, it won't be pretty.
"Despite severe cost-cutting, the UAW is now running an operating deficit and tapping into its financial reserves, notes analyst and broadcaster John McElroy, host of "AutoLine: Detroit."
“They have to give it a try because they don’t have a choice,” said McElroy. “But it’s hard to see how they might be successful this time. They’re trying to organize in a right-to-work state where there’s a generally anti-union attitude.”
The UAW is battling perceptions created by themselves and Public employee Unions. I would bet more than 50% of the population blame the UAW for the GM & C bankruptcy and wasted tax dollars. There is a large part of the population that are fed up with Public Employees and their obscene benefits and wages, when so many people are unemployed. My Sister in Law's father is a retired fireman in Orange County CA. He gets $107k per year after 25 years. And he is in good health. No disability. She considers that obscene as do I.
I don't see any real sustainable jobs being created in RTW states
I think VW has created sustainable jobs in TN. They are adding more all the time. Indiana just passed RTW and pulled in a big Caterpillar factory.
Canada Scowls, Indiana Cheers Over Caterpillar Moves
Caterpillar has caused an uproar in Canada with a controversial plant closing. But the company attracted so many people to an Indiana jobs fair that the event had to be shut down earlier than planned.
On Friday, Caterpillar‘s Progress Rail Services said it was closing the 62-year-old Electro-Motive Canada plant in London, Ontario, about two hours west of Toronto
It’s the second big closing in that part of Canada in a year’s time. Navistar shut its truck plant in nearby Chatham, Ontario in 2010, eliminating 1,100 jobs.
But at the moment, Caterpillar is the toast of Muncie, in east central Indiana.
Over the weekend, Caterpillar held a jobs fair that attracted about 3,000 applicants for jobs paying between $12.50 and $18 an hour, according to the Muncie Free Press.
Some of those job-seekers showed up at 4 a.m., even though the doors didn’t open until five hours later. The fair was supposed to run most of the day, but closed at noon, with applicants directed to Caterpillar’s Web site.
Any future growth will be in RTW states. And with Obama adding more fuel to the employment fire, it will only get tougher to get even a low paying factory job. When you get 20,000 people wanting one of 800 new jobs at the Chattanooga plant, you don't have to put up with UAW hiring tactics.
Helped by favorable foreign exchange rates and an ample supply of affordable labor, the U.S. is emerging as fertile ground for foreign auto makers who want to expand their production.
Volkswagen is mulling a second plant to produce Audi vehicles in the U.S. BMW AG is expanding its plant in South Carolina while Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit is considering adding a second U.S. plant.
A very good reason not to buy a UAW built vehicle. Sad the Union allows a few bad employees to give the whole Union a bad Rep.
From the article you posted. This stands out as Lunacy:
UAW organizers believe they may have found a crack at Nissan’s other U.S. plant; workers at Canton are being paid an estimated $1.50 an hour less than the reported $26.50 earned in Smyrna. Then again, the Mississippi plant also pays an average $10 more than the prevailing wage in that state, and workers get extensive benefits that include sharply discounted prices for new cars and auto insurance.
People working in a Mississippi factory making $25 per hour is a crack? Bob King must be smoking crack. If a factory opened up in San Diego paying $25 per hour with a starting wage of $9 per hour, you would have a 100,000 applicants camped out for weeks to apply.
>Over the weekend, Caterpillar held a jobs fair that attracted about 3,000 applicants for jobs paying between $12.50 and $18 an hour, according to the Muncie Free Press.
I watched the governor interviewed last Sunday on one of the network shows. I wasn't as impressed with his sometimes glib answers and liberal use of data to support his actions--sounded more like the current admin in data use. I'm not as certain that his removal of negotiation rights for public workers has not resulted in fewer and in the same wages and that they are living wages.
>Muncie
Where were the governor's peoples when they were setting up the employment region for the Honda Civic plant in Columbus? They didn't include Muncie (or Anderson) in the permitted employment application zone. They discriminated against those regions which used to have high auto industry-related employment. But for now I'm glad their governor didn't make it into the presidential candidates.
>Volkswagen is mulling a second plant to produce Audi vehicles in the U.S. BMW AG is expanding its plant in South Carolina while Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit is considering adding a second U.S. plant.
Think that might have something to do with the relative value of their homeland currency compared to the dollar resulting in its being more profitable to build here (and use some closely held suppliers) than to build in the homeland?
Didn't realize you were in GA. Is that permanent or temporary? Now I understand the context of your "red state" message!
I don't see any real sustainable jobs being created in RTW states that are coming from others.
It seems like the decline in auto mfg jobs in MI, etc. is caused largely by the increase in similar jobs in the RTW states. If the US makers could make cars using non-union labor in the South then you would see new GM/C jobs there, too. As it now stands, the US automakers have an economic disadvantage vs. their competition due to the Union vs. RTW states. And we know how that is likely to turn out.
We all know the general state of education and literacy in this country. It strikes me how uniformly excellent the writing/spelling/grammar is of all the regulars in this forum. I guess we're all in the top 10%, at least from that standpoint!
I can see Germany downsizing their auto manufacturing for the US consumption. If they are paying twice as much for labor as they are in the USA, it would make sense to transfer mfg to the states. Only very expensive models from all the foreign auto makers will be made in their home countries.
Obama did make a pretty pathetic, blatantly political move and I expect Romney to probably step on it in response. I don't think there is a Clinton or Reagan in either one of them - sad. I think vehicle quality is more a reflection of the company than RTW vs. UAW. I had a Honda put together in Alabama that was pretty poorly assembled IMO. As for immigration, if you look at US demographics, it seems to me that we either increase immigration or increase the birthrate. Otherwise we end up like Japan in the next decade or two. I also with you that neither party is doing much for the middle class or its future.
Germany is facing a lot of serious issues. As for transplants, labor pushes more models being assembled here, but does that over time diminish the "Made in German" snob appeal of a BMW or Mercedes? I guess time will tell.
I think reliability will have to be maintained at a high level or the nameplate will lose its glitter. Though none of the German makes have a stellar record for reliability. They all have improved over the last few years. VW has been made all over the World. So it is not easy to pinpoint the best workers. I think USA workers can compete with any in the World as long as their attitude is to make the best vehicles possible. That is an attitude the UAW does not seem to instill in all its workers.
It's interesting that the Koreans are getting the reputation for reliability that the Japanese used to have. Last I heard, their unions were pretty militant. Not to mention their Congress. As snippy as ours is, we've yet to have a good barroom brawl like the Asians have. Some of their fights sound a bit staged though, like professional wrestling.
I think reliability will have to be maintained at a high level or the nameplate will lose its glitter. Though none of the German makes have a stellar record for reliability. They all have improved over the last few years. VW has been made all over the World. So it is not easy to pinpoint the best workers. I think USA workers can compete with any in the World as long as their attitude is to make the best vehicles possible. That is an attitude the UAW does not seem to instill in all its workers.
Agreed - it is definitely a shared responsibility. I've worked in environments where (overall - there are always bad apples) the management is supportive and helpful to the workers, and the workers are motivated to make their company successful. There is a feeling of ownership in success and excellent work.
Once you turn it into a union situation where it is "us vs. them" that antagonism does a LOT to cause the decline in a company's products and services. The employees are aggravated and the management digs its heels in. What suffers is paying much attention to the products of the company. There ends up being so much overhead in councils, grievances, negotiations, meetings, etc. that the company carries all of that cost and baggage. And that is even before you get to the often unreasonable salaries and benefits.
How sustainable are these jobs though, really? For one, they all require some kind of subsidization/bribery to get the plants built in the first place, and secondly, demand to keep the lines going can only exist for as long as there are widespread jobs which pay enough to buy these vehicles. Looking at income and cost of living trends and what has happened to the socalled middle class over the past generation, it is not a positive outlook. So much debt has been required to keep thing going, and it can't exist forever.
It makes sense for foreign makes to have NA operations - cheaper labor, cheaper shipping, probably even cheaper raw materials and an easy base for the dumbed down bland products the Germans especially like to foist on us.
Oh, temporary. It's a nice place to visit, but it would be tough to live here...well, maybe if I had something like my Seattle salary here, I could be comfortable...I could afford a pretty nice spread, and my income would be far above the local average. The friend I am visiting for a couple days is from the same area as I, and he still has some mixed feelings about his move. There are some developmental problems here, to put it nicely.
The migration of auto manufacturing reminds me of the old textile mills...in the north, moved south, then away, and a few who didn't deserve it made huge gold for their actions.
I think the "us vs them" ideal isn't only a union problem, but a regional issue. I suspect friction between managers and people who actually get things done is higher in higher in the US than in any other developed nation. There's a definitely different workplace culture here,.
As long as a product isn't cost cut/engineered downward to the point of being junk (typical Big 3 problem) and the workers are properly trained and motivated (probably an issue in every new factory), American workers can certainly make something on par with their competition. They did once, and still do in many cases. The attitude of the "high earner" suit wearers is every bit as important as the attitude of the guy installing headlights. The former group has at least as much of an entitlement mentality as the latter.
How sustainable are these jobs though, really? For one, they all require some kind of subsidization/bribery to get the plants built in the first place...
Agreed that we need an economy of car buyers to keep any auto jobs going.
But comparing subsidies for foreign plants (which is more a reflection of the health of the parent company) - those states would also have happily subsidized F/GM/C if THEY were building plants there) to the *bailouts* that without which GM and C wouldn't even be alive is like comparing a fly to an elephant.
Oh, temporary. It's a nice place to visit, but it would be tough to live here...well, maybe if I had something like my Seattle salary here, I could be comfortable...I could afford a pretty nice spread, and my income would be far above the local average. The friend I am visiting for a couple days is from the same area as I, and he still has some mixed feelings about his move. There are some developmental problems here, to put it nicely.
Cool! Don't get too much of that red clay on your shoes! I'll bet it is a bit hotter and more humid in GA!
I mean the giveaways offered to build plants in various locations.
Virtually every foreign make has/does receive federal subsidies from the parent nations, too. Somehow, that just doesn't work in our dying version of capitalism. We would rather prop up the military-industrial complex, give undue tax breaks to the 1%, and endless aid to undeserving nations.
We can either compete with aid and bailouts by offering our own, or put punitive and equalizing measures in place to account for this when the competition sells in our backyard.
I spent most of the past week in Florida...hot there, but up here it is perfect, not too hot or humid. I got lucky. All too soon, back home to the cool drizzle. It's mid afternoon here, waiting to go to dinner, sunny and pleasant, can't complain.
The attitude of the "high earner" suit wearers is every bit as important as the attitude of the guy installing headlights. The former group has at least as much of an entitlement mentality as the latter.
Well one benefit of capitalism is that it DOES work in a lot of cases. It's sort of like the laws of thermodynamics. You can delay the inevitable, but you can't avoid it.
Example 1 - The UAW demanded living wages exorbitant and unreasonable compensation. Yet after a few decades, competition has caught up with them. It wasn't sustainable, which is why the "transplants don't have as many jobs" argument is specious. That's because the D3 were very poor in efficiency, largely due to the unions. And that was an opportunity for a competitor to exploit.
Example 2 - The "Big suit" companies will be subject to the same challenges. Once a company shows up that doesn't pay "big suit" monies, then it will be tough for the wasteful companies to compete. For example, if GM had not been bailed out, we would have extinguished BOTH the UAW and the high priced suits at that company. But we interfered.
Example 3 - Take a read of the excellent article at The Verge about a US company, Vizio. They've out competed with Sony and others to take over a major spot in television manufacturing. No big suits at that company.
Example 4 - Take Apple, a company almost dead a decade ago, but now the largest company in the world. Sure they employ tons of people in China. But they have also made plenty of US employees, as well as many other companies making money feeding their add-on devices, services, and ecosystem. Nokia stock is junk, and RIM (maker of blackberry) is dying, because Apple out-competed them. U.S. competitiveness at work.
We can either compete with aid and bailouts by offering our own, or put punitive and equalizing measures in place to account for this when the competition sells in our backyard.
I could go for the latter approach, as long as it is measured and reflective of any unfair advantages provided by the other countries. But of course then you get into trade squabbles and it's not always easy to define "unfair", as each side has it's own opinions.
What would really be good for US makers is if there was a way to break the UAW and allow the US makes to manufacture in RTW states in a similar manner to all of the transplants. The current unionization is going to be a continuing anchor around the D3 competitiveness until the union's power is down to nothing or it goes away. There's really no sensible reason to have rules that if you tighten lug nuts, you also can't pick papers up off the floor.
Of course, calling what we have had for the past few decades "capitalism" is tenuous at best - it is in reality reverse socialism, the betterment of the few paid for by the sacrifice of the many.
Big 3 was also done in by subsidized competition and poor leadership, especially in engineering and financials - not to mention those who lead workers.
The big suit brigade is a parasitic incestuous good old boys club. As long as there are companies, executives will be overpaid, as they kind of create their own salaries in the name of "attracting and retaining talent". It's fine if they actually back up their demands with defendable results, but otherwise, these people should feel lucky they haven't been strung up, literally. Capital punishment for financial crimes, and that includes commercial treachery.
Apple is not indicative of the economy as a whole, and as you hint, is wholly dependent upon glorified slave labor in China, along with personal debt in the US.
The socio-economic evolution of the past few decades says everything.
And you can play by the rules of the market where you want to sell, or not be allowed to sell there at all. Simple.
I do agree that holding the domestics to the UAW ball and chain is counterproductive. But it won't solve anything when other leadership is so defective, and we let subsidized and bailed out firms compete on a level playing field here.
The socio-economic evolution of the past few decades says everything.
I share similar disdain to you in regards to the out of control salaries of the fat cats - salaries not earned in many (most) cases through any actually accomplishments. But I do have faith that it is ultimately unsustainable, just as the UAW salaries and benefits were. The market IS efficient, just not on the shorter time scales we would all like. But over decades, things are going to change.
I suspect friction between managers and people who actually get things done is higher in higher in the US than in any other developed nation.
One theory is that Americans tend to be "pushier" and stand up for themselves to authority figures more than some other cultures. One example being Avianca Flight 52 (Wiki); at least that's Malcolm Gladwell's theory.
Thanks for the Vizio reference Tlong. Had no idea - in-laws were given one last week and I moved it for them. Great picture.
Take Apple, a company almost dead a decade ago, but now the largest company in the world.
Apple may be the most profitable. They are still in 3rd place selling smartphones behind Nokia and number one Samsung. Samsung had $247 billion in 2011. With $224 billion in equity compared to Apples $100 billion give or take. I would be a multi millionaire if I had bought AAPL stock 10 years ago when it was under $10 per share.
As Fintail mentioned companies like Apple and the auto makers depend on our amassing more and more debt to keep them afloat. Will the sub prime auto loans be the next bubble to burst?
Or is it that authority figures here tend to be more arrogant and detached from reality? Or that working together just isn't a modern societal norm here, perhaps. Kind of along the lines that few will dare to question the backwards socialism masquerading as capitalism that we have now, as most think that they too are just a step and a half away from becoming the next tycoon - so they will do anything to retain their sketchy at best position. Americans are standing up more...but losing more, as the idea of shared sacrifice proves itself to be a fairytale.
I swear, the majority of TV car commercials in FL and GA are loudly targeting subprime customers. It says a lot. It also seems that fiscal irresponsibility both personal and structural isn't just a hallmark of whiny leftist bleeding hearts.
Apple got lucky stepping in on the hubris and lack of innovation by MS, and by becoming a master of packaging. Very few organizations can claim anything similar. And we know the status of the majority of its workers - it aint progress.
I don't know if I can buy that - at least in terms of positive change. Those with their finger on the button will run things into the ground before they even think of changing voluntarily - so it will get a lot worse before it gets better. With corporations being people too, but facing virtually zero accountability both as entities and for their leaders, there's nothing to stop it.
Union haters should think about why unions were born. Will the "high earner" execs, managers, consultants, and other surplus overhead have the smarts to keep a backlash at bay?
I believe it does diminish the mystique of being assembled by Old World Teutonic tradesmen. I'd want a Mercedes to be built by meticulous German craftsmen than some barely literate bumpkins in the Southeast United States. it's like finding out that Fendi handbag you bought for your wife was sewn in some third-world sweatshop by a six-year old child instead of by some Italian artisan.
I think an argument can be made and substantiated that obscene CEO pay is right in line with over the national average Union pay. When GM started to crumble the papers had UAW whiners going bankrupt because they lost their OT. Fork lift operators making $120k and more. At that time I believe the GM CEO was making less than 10 times that in salary. Most of the big paydays touted today for CEOs includes a lot of them cashing in large stock holdings to take advantage of the soon to go away 15% LTCG tax. The $370 million in stock, Apple CEO is cashing in this year, was only worth about $3 million 10 years ago. He will be back to his $1,000,000 a year salary next year. Up your way at MSFT, the average wage was something like $245k per year. There was a big story about a cafeteria cook cashing in his stock and opening a high end restaurant. A lot has to do with being at the right place at the right time. Take Rocky, that is at the right place at the wrong time. 30 years ago and he would be making the $100k per year putting on lug nuts. Yes I believe the Unions have had a lot to do with the mess we are in. And the broad spectrum of pay.
If my financial condition is so bad I'd need to resort to using "subprime financing" to buy a new car, I'll just save up the money and buy a hooptie for cash until my situation improves. There are plenty of crooked dealerships whose commercials target subprime buyers between segments of "Maury" and "Jerry Springer."
barely literate bumpkins in the Southeast United States
I'll see your Maruy Povich (b. DC) and raise you a Faulkner. Springer's from the UK - but he wound up in Cincy.
I'm pretty sure Faulkner was union too (Screen Actors Guild). Probably Capote and Tennessee Williams too. And of course, Grisham is a member of the lawyer's union.
gagrice: "I think USA workers can compete with any in the World as long as their attitude is to make the best vehicles possible. That is an attitude the UAW does not seem to instill in all its workers."...I have always believed that US workers are the best in the world and can make the finest products, as long as the bad apples can be weeded out in less than a day...the reason I have no tolerance or respect for unions like the UAW is that they intentionally work the hardest to keep the "worstest-rottenest" apples on the line making lousy products, keeping them paid for the 2 years it takes to run thru all the grievance appeals before they can be fired...when someone knows thay can be fired in a day, and that delay tactics simply do not work, either they shape up and make good product or never apply to begin with, so one draws from a "better" pool of applicants...when it comes to unskilled labor, I believe that the UAW, past, say, 1960s, became a union that stood for protecting jobs regardelss of the quality produced...people need to know that they can lose their job and the UAW made sure that did not happen, whereas in RTW states, it is more likely...
Thank how it MIGHT have been if a UAW member showed up drunk, or chronically late, and lost their job that day...instead of getting paid obscene wages (over $50/hour in wages and benefits for a job that takes 30 minutes to train) for 2 years before finally getting fired...
fintail: I am reading your post about Sunday at 2:00 pm...you are in Atlanta???
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Don't recall much about it now, but seems like the UAW claims were more along the lines of wage claims and thus got a higher priority.
I'm sitting in the heart of a solidly anti-union red state, and it's not exactly the definition of prosperity and potential, either...unless you are public sector management or daddy gave you the family business or a free ride. Seems like there's no way to win these days.
Are you still in WA? I thought it was blue up there. :surprise:
I don't know, Seattle looks pretty prosperous to me relative to much of the rest of the country. Apologies in advance if that's not the general area you are referring to.
All areas have their pros and cons, Seattle and GA included. Doesn't seem unions or not really impact a lot when the big picture is taken into account.
I do agree about the political BS, and Obama has made an especially cynical political move...desperate times and desperate measures, I guess. I also heard he might jump out and legalize pot right before the election - union workers smoking up before their shift might make for some interesting products :shades:
Not looking too rosy for the UAW though - if they don't make headway in Canton, it won't be pretty.
"Despite severe cost-cutting, the UAW is now running an operating deficit and tapping into its financial reserves, notes analyst and broadcaster John McElroy, host of "AutoLine: Detroit."
“They have to give it a try because they don’t have a choice,” said McElroy. “But it’s hard to see how they might be successful this time. They’re trying to organize in a right-to-work state where there’s a generally anti-union attitude.”
Foreign automakers stubbornly keep UAW off the line (MSNBC)
I think VW has created sustainable jobs in TN. They are adding more all the time. Indiana just passed RTW and pulled in a big Caterpillar factory.
Canada Scowls, Indiana Cheers Over Caterpillar Moves
Caterpillar has caused an uproar in Canada with a controversial plant closing. But the company attracted so many people to an Indiana jobs fair that the event had to be shut down earlier than planned.
On Friday, Caterpillar‘s Progress Rail Services said it was closing the 62-year-old Electro-Motive Canada plant in London, Ontario, about two hours west of Toronto
It’s the second big closing in that part of Canada in a year’s time. Navistar shut its truck plant in nearby Chatham, Ontario in 2010, eliminating 1,100 jobs.
But at the moment, Caterpillar is the toast of Muncie, in east central Indiana.
Over the weekend, Caterpillar held a jobs fair that attracted about 3,000 applicants for jobs paying between $12.50 and $18 an hour, according to the Muncie Free Press.
Some of those job-seekers showed up at 4 a.m., even though the doors didn’t open until five hours later. The fair was supposed to run most of the day, but closed at noon, with applicants directed to Caterpillar’s Web site.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michelinemaynard/2012/02/06/canada-scowls-indiana-ch- eers-over-caterpillar-moves/
Any future growth will be in RTW states. And with Obama adding more fuel to the employment fire, it will only get tougher to get even a low paying factory job. When you get 20,000 people wanting one of 800 new jobs at the Chattanooga plant, you don't have to put up with UAW hiring tactics.
Helped by favorable foreign exchange rates and an ample supply of affordable labor, the U.S. is emerging as fertile ground for foreign auto makers who want to expand their production.
Volkswagen is mulling a second plant to produce Audi vehicles in the U.S. BMW AG is expanding its plant in South Carolina while Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit is considering adding a second U.S. plant.
All are immune from UAW tactics by RTW laws.
Everyone knows that the pot is smoked on breaks and at lunch. :P
Then the workers get suspended with pay for two months while the grievance process grinds away, and then they go back to the line.
Got the perception right?
From the article you posted. This stands out as Lunacy:
UAW organizers believe they may have found a crack at Nissan’s other U.S. plant; workers at Canton are being paid an estimated $1.50 an hour less than the reported $26.50 earned in Smyrna. Then again, the Mississippi plant also pays an average $10 more than the prevailing wage in that state, and workers get extensive benefits that include sharply discounted prices for new cars and auto insurance.
People working in a Mississippi factory making $25 per hour is a crack? Bob King must be smoking crack. If a factory opened up in San Diego paying $25 per hour with a starting wage of $9 per hour, you would have a 100,000 applicants camped out for weeks to apply.
I watched the governor interviewed last Sunday on one of the network shows. I wasn't as impressed with his sometimes glib answers and liberal use of data to support his actions--sounded more like the current admin in data use. I'm not as certain that his removal of negotiation rights for public workers has not resulted in fewer and in the same wages and that they are living wages.
>Muncie
Where were the governor's peoples when they were setting up the employment region for the Honda Civic plant in Columbus? They didn't include Muncie (or Anderson) in the permitted employment application zone. They discriminated against those regions which used to have high auto industry-related employment. But for now I'm glad their governor didn't make it into the presidential candidates.
>Volkswagen is mulling a second plant to produce Audi vehicles in the U.S. BMW AG is expanding its plant in South Carolina while Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit is considering adding a second U.S. plant.
Think that might have something to do with the relative value of their homeland currency compared to the dollar resulting in its being more profitable to build here (and use some closely held suppliers) than to build in the homeland?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't see any real sustainable jobs being created in RTW states that are coming from others.
It seems like the decline in auto mfg jobs in MI, etc. is caused largely by the increase in similar jobs in the RTW states. If the US makers could make cars using non-union labor in the South then you would see new GM/C jobs there, too. As it now stands, the US automakers have an economic disadvantage vs. their competition due to the Union vs. RTW states. And we know how that is likely to turn out.
Top 1%. Close to _Perfect_ are we all!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Who could argue with that? :P
Agreed - it is definitely a shared responsibility. I've worked in environments where (overall - there are always bad apples) the management is supportive and helpful to the workers, and the workers are motivated to make their company successful. There is a feeling of ownership in success and excellent work.
Once you turn it into a union situation where it is "us vs. them" that antagonism does a LOT to cause the decline in a company's products and services. The employees are aggravated and the management digs its heels in. What suffers is paying much attention to the products of the company. There ends up being so much overhead in councils, grievances, negotiations, meetings, etc. that the company carries all of that cost and baggage. And that is even before you get to the often unreasonable salaries and benefits.
It makes sense for foreign makes to have NA operations - cheaper labor, cheaper shipping, probably even cheaper raw materials and an easy base for the dumbed down bland products the Germans especially like to foist on us.
The migration of auto manufacturing reminds me of the old textile mills...in the north, moved south, then away, and a few who didn't deserve it made huge gold for their actions.
Agreed that we need an economy of car buyers to keep any auto jobs going.
But comparing subsidies for foreign plants (which is more a reflection of the health of the parent company) - those states would also have happily subsidized F/GM/C if THEY were building plants there) to the *bailouts* that without which GM and C wouldn't even be alive is like comparing a fly to an elephant.
Cool! Don't get too much of that red clay on your shoes! I'll bet it is a bit hotter and more humid in GA!
Virtually every foreign make has/does receive federal subsidies from the parent nations, too. Somehow, that just doesn't work in our dying version of capitalism. We would rather prop up the military-industrial complex, give undue tax breaks to the 1%, and endless aid to undeserving nations.
We can either compete with aid and bailouts by offering our own, or put punitive and equalizing measures in place to account for this when the competition sells in our backyard.
Well one benefit of capitalism is that it DOES work in a lot of cases. It's sort of like the laws of thermodynamics. You can delay the inevitable, but you can't avoid it.
Example 1 - The UAW demanded
living wagesexorbitant and unreasonable compensation. Yet after a few decades, competition has caught up with them. It wasn't sustainable, which is why the "transplants don't have as many jobs" argument is specious. That's because the D3 were very poor in efficiency, largely due to the unions. And that was an opportunity for a competitor to exploit.Example 2 - The "Big suit" companies will be subject to the same challenges. Once a company shows up that doesn't pay "big suit" monies, then it will be tough for the wasteful companies to compete. For example, if GM had not been bailed out, we would have extinguished BOTH the UAW and the high priced suits at that company. But we interfered.
Example 3 - Take a read of the excellent article at The Verge about a US company, Vizio. They've out competed with Sony and others to take over a major spot in television manufacturing. No big suits at that company.
Example 4 - Take Apple, a company almost dead a decade ago, but now the largest company in the world. Sure they employ tons of people in China. But they have also made plenty of US employees, as well as many other companies making money feeding their add-on devices, services, and ecosystem. Nokia stock is junk, and RIM (maker of blackberry) is dying, because Apple out-competed them. U.S. competitiveness at work.
I could go for the latter approach, as long as it is measured and reflective of any unfair advantages provided by the other countries. But of course then you get into trade squabbles and it's not always easy to define "unfair", as each side has it's own opinions.
What would really be good for US makers is if there was a way to break the UAW and allow the US makes to manufacture in RTW states in a similar manner to all of the transplants. The current unionization is going to be a continuing anchor around the D3 competitiveness until the union's power is down to nothing or it goes away. There's really no sensible reason to have rules that if you tighten lug nuts, you also can't pick papers up off the floor.
Big 3 was also done in by subsidized competition and poor leadership, especially in engineering and financials - not to mention those who lead workers.
The big suit brigade is a parasitic incestuous good old boys club. As long as there are companies, executives will be overpaid, as they kind of create their own salaries in the name of "attracting and retaining talent". It's fine if they actually back up their demands with defendable results, but otherwise, these people should feel lucky they haven't been strung up, literally. Capital punishment for financial crimes, and that includes commercial treachery.
Apple is not indicative of the economy as a whole, and as you hint, is wholly dependent upon glorified slave labor in China, along with personal debt in the US.
The socio-economic evolution of the past few decades says everything.
I do agree that holding the domestics to the UAW ball and chain is counterproductive. But it won't solve anything when other leadership is so defective, and we let subsidized and bailed out firms compete on a level playing field here.
I share similar disdain to you in regards to the out of control salaries of the fat cats - salaries not earned in many (most) cases through any actually accomplishments. But I do have faith that it is ultimately unsustainable, just as the UAW salaries and benefits were. The market IS efficient, just not on the shorter time scales we would all like. But over decades, things are going to change.
One theory is that Americans tend to be "pushier" and stand up for themselves to authority figures more than some other cultures. One example being Avianca Flight 52 (Wiki); at least that's Malcolm Gladwell's theory.
Thanks for the Vizio reference Tlong. Had no idea - in-laws were given one last week and I moved it for them. Great picture.
Apple may be the most profitable. They are still in 3rd place selling smartphones behind Nokia and number one Samsung. Samsung had $247 billion in 2011. With $224 billion in equity compared to Apples $100 billion give or take. I would be a multi millionaire if I had bought AAPL stock 10 years ago when it was under $10 per share.
As Fintail mentioned companies like Apple and the auto makers depend on our amassing more and more debt to keep them afloat. Will the sub prime auto loans be the next bubble to burst?
I was very impressed with both the company (Vizio) and the quality of that article.
I knew you'd see humor in that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Apple got lucky stepping in on the hubris and lack of innovation by MS, and by becoming a master of packaging. Very few organizations can claim anything similar. And we know the status of the majority of its workers - it aint progress.
Union haters should think about why unions were born. Will the "high earner" execs, managers, consultants, and other surplus overhead have the smarts to keep a backlash at bay?
I'll see your Maruy Povich (b. DC) and raise you a Faulkner. Springer's from the UK - but he wound up in Cincy.
I'm pretty sure Faulkner was union too (Screen Actors Guild). Probably Capote and Tennessee Williams too. And of course, Grisham is a member of the lawyer's union.
Thank how it MIGHT have been if a UAW member showed up drunk, or chronically late, and lost their job that day...instead of getting paid obscene wages (over $50/hour in wages and benefits for a job that takes 30 minutes to train) for 2 years before finally getting fired...
fintail: I am reading your post about Sunday at 2:00 pm...you are in Atlanta???