I have indeed looked into that but one major problem. You need a county, city, township, to sponsor to get MCOLES Certified and since the only place that is offering that in this state occassionally is Detroit, well it's not very feasible. We in 2006 had like 16 or 17K unemployed ex law enforcement officers in this state so each place has a abundant of qualified and certified police officers to choose from. I in fact applied for the City of Grand Rapids, a few times this year but a new friend I made who was taking the car sales training who worked for the city of G.R. told me don't bother unless you are certified or are certifiable. I also could not make the pre-exam date because of my interview/meeting todayat the GM dealer. My new friend said if the city is sponsoring it was news to him. So like everthing else it's open for speculation. :confuse:
I did my interview/meeting arrived about 40 minutes early and waited about a hour to do my interview. I got pawned off from the General Manager, tothe Sales Manager, that did about a 5 minute interview and sent me along my way. He told me if I don't hear back from him by the end of next week give him a call. I guess I have to go for a 2nd interview....This is ridiculous as I hadbeen through two at the toyota, dealer already. My trainer was not happy as they only hired 8 people when the number was suppose to be 15. My trainer said they would of made more cuts but was told a couple of weeks ago their dealership needed trained body's. So basically I got a bunch of SMOKE blown straight up my tail pipe from the toyota, sales manager last friday and do not know my status. It from being a gaurantee to I don't know ???? :sick: This is so unprofessional. Alot of people canceled interviews for this job and well we see how the cookie really crumbles.
My trainer did get me another lead with a local chevrolet dealer about a mile from my house. They told them I was coming. I filled out a application and was told I would be contacted at a later date for a interview but yes they were hiring.
I also was informed by my trainer that Saturn of Grand Rapids, wants some of us and they would get a hold of me when to go down there. I did give them some leads on who to call and yes they called one of the two dealerships I was interested in already and are waiting a response.
I did a brief interview with a major grocery chain this afternoon as a manager trainee. It starts at $19.38 an/hr. and they said if they have further interest I would be contacted by monday. The hiring manager seemed pretty excited when I walked in the door dressed to impress in my suit and tie and my Bruno Armani, like loafers. :shades: LOL !!!! Little did he know I did two prior interviews.
Well I'm just glad the UAW contracts are settled nowand hopefully progress and the turnarounds can continue. It's a relief knowing my family members will not be eating Alpo, any time soon.
I couldn't imagine being in the military right now
If not now, when? If not here, where? IMO you would benefit a lot by enduring military discipline, being part of a TO&E outfit for a minimum of two years.
One of my college room mates made a wonderful 30 year career after being commissioned a 2nd Lt. via ROTC, retired with a Masters as an O6.
Personally, it is my experienced opinion that every male graduate from HS, receive his diploma with one hand and his two year active duty orders with the other.
This is followed by 16 weeks of Basic and Advanced Infantry Training, then transferred to wherever he is needed. NO CO's, no deferments, no excuses, and every male participates. Tough? Sure, but it's what this country needs.
I would agree with you if I was under a different "type" of government. I would for Norway, Germany, but I would not like it under a regime like we have in Washington. I also do not think women should be excluded and put on the front lines as well. Then just maybe we would see a different approach to world affairs when not only your sons but daughters are in harms way instead of the select few. If they did that then I would support your idea 110%
I can't imagine the chickenhawks in control today going through such work :sick: ...but I too agree some kind of mandated public service is nothing but a benefit for all parties involved.
The US moreso needs leadership that can talk the talk and walk the walk.
Continuing good luck on your job search...this may sound kinda convoluted, but when a company blows smoke in your tail pipe, I simply see that as a signal from above that you do not belong there and wouldn't/couldn't be happy working there...
I realize that when one has no job and is strenuously looking for employment, interviews like your experience at Toy simply seem a waste of time...but, trying to always find a silver lining, I see it differently...sometimes you need to be exposed to something you don't want in addition to what you do want...it is almost like the thinking of Dr. Wayne Dyer, that maybe you are not meant for Toy...just because the human wants the perfect job NOW does not mean that the Universe is ready to give it to you, until YOU show the Universe that you are ready for it...worthless interviews may give you the experience to be better at the job that is RIGHT for you, whatever that is...
Rocky, there is an old saying in the insurance business...the story goes that when one is selling life insurance, only one in ten people will buy from you...the negative-minded person can only think that 90% of the market prospects will turn him down...how depressing...
The positive-minded person can hardly wait to approach as many people as possible, because the faster he hears "no" from nine people, he will make a sale and make his commission...
Same identical fact pattern, one sees it as a downer, one sees it as a great opportunity...
Your opportunity is out there, and I believe ou will find it...but always be sure you are mentally receptive to receive good things, and understand that sometimes the worst negative may lead to the best positive...
I have also read numerous books, some self-help, some positive thinking, and a story that keeps repeating itself is often the experience of the author, whoever it may be...
I am amazed at the number of people, folks who are very successful, either failed in their earlier attempts or were fired from what they thought was a secure job...at first, being fired seems bad, but only because the human mind detests change and loves "security"...
But many successful people, when they look back and reflect, are often GRATEFUL for being fired, because it may have forced them out of their rut (rut: a grave that simply extends beyond six feet long) or forced them to make changes that improved their lives, but changes that NEVER would have been made if they had not been forced out of their job by a superior...
The only difference between the failure and the success is simple...both have been repeatedly knocked down, but the failure gave up and the success got up one more time...
Change is constant...some folks die because they are scared of change because they have no faith in their own ability to adapt...thsoe that are secure within themselves welcome change as an opportunity to grow as a person, learn new skills, meet new people, maybe find emplyment that was better than what they had THAT THEY THOUGHT MADE THEM HAPPY...since Nature will always throw curve balls at us, we can either welcome the ongoing challenges of life or sink into depression and live on Lithium, Valium, and other mind-numbing drugs...
Welcome the challenges you are about to face, never get complacent because somewhere down the road, again, you will face more new challenges, and the positive person thrives on challenges...
Always be the positive person, even in the midst of negative circumstances, because you are equipped with the means to meet the challenge, unless you let yourself down and fail to meet the challenge...
Do not be afraid of failure...when Thomas Edison was asked how he can keep trying to invent the electric filament when he had already "failed" over 10,000 times, he responded..."Failed...hogwash...I now know 10,000 ways it WON'T work...that isn't failure"
You are speaking about "The Law Of Attraction" I believe. We watched a video based on that called The Secret in my automobile sales training class. I do have some faith in that way of thinking and it was a inspiring film that made me think.
I guess when you've been kicked around like a old useless dog like I have been for the last six-months a little optomism will turn to a little negativity once in a while. Trust me it's short-lived negativity and I try to awake each day believing some good will happen to me.
Life insurance is a tough sell and not everybody needs it. But everybody needs property & casaulty insurance. I'd get licensed in both should I go into the insurance business. Just stay away from idiot outfits like Primerica which are MLMs in disguise.
Opportunity sometimes comes out of nowhere. I remember when I was last out of work back in March 1991 - a really bad time to be unemployed. I had a great job with a nice office and even a parking space with a sign on it saying it was reserved exclusively for me. Heck, guys my Dad's age addressed me as "Mister." Bam! Then one day it's all gone! In the morning I have my own office suite and staff, by the afternoon I'm wearing a Brioni suit and carrying a briefcase into the unemployment office on 55th Street in West Philly with my 2 year-old Cadillac parked at the curb.
I had been out of work for 3 months when a guy calls me on a Thursday in early June at 10:30 AM in for an interview. I go the following Monday and Bam! I got the job! What was even better was I got to travel and stay in nice places. By mid July I'm lying on a float in the pool of a Hyatt Regency sipping a Manhattan and thinking, "Just a few months ago I thought it was the end of the world!"
By mid July I'm lying on a float in the pool of a Hyatt Regency sipping a Manhattan and thinking, "Just a few months ago I thought it was the end of the world!"
Ain't life Grand? I think with the determination Rocky shows, that will be him in no time.
The UAW folks that still have jobs should be pleased. They have a few years to save money and prepare for what may happen to the Big 3.
my verbiage, I was just trying to encourage rocky to keep an open mind, and stay positive, simply because opportunities seem to come to those who are "ready" and negative minded people, are not considered "ready" as their minds are so clouded with negativity...
Just my encouragement for rocky and his eventual new job...
Once he is on his feet, then we can go back to bashing his unionized thinking processes...for now, he gets a hiatus...:):):):):):):)
With ratification seemingly accomplished for the Big 3 and the UAW, I don't know what we're going to have to talk about in here. Heaven forbid we stray from the topic, lol.
Ain't life Grand? I think with the determination Rocky shows, that will be him in no time.
I really do appreciate that gagrice.
The UAW folks that still have jobs should be pleased. They have a few years to save money and prepare for what may happen to the Big 3.
I hope you are wrong but yeah they should be saving !!!! The new hires don't make enough to save therefore they need to eliminate as much risk as possible just in case the ship goes belly up !!!
-Rocky
P.S. I haven't heard anything yet today. I might give my trainer a jingle and see if she has gotten back with a couple dealerships.
lemko wrote: "In Israel, both men and women go into combat."
Don't forget the neutral country Switzerland. All able-bodied Swiss males aged between 19 and 31 must serve in the Swiss military. And, that means they are in the military between age 19 and 31 continuous, either active or reserve.
One of the primary reasons the Swiss can remain neutral is the strength of their military. The last time I was in Switzerland, I saw (and, this is no joke) a section of the side of a Swiss mountain open up, and out flew a Harrier jump jet! They have placed these operational aircraft actually inside some of the Swiss mountains or Alps with camouflaged hydraulically operated doors. It's really amazing stuff . . . and, this is only one example of their stealthy military.
I guess you'd better keep the Boeing's idea going for yourself, huh? They're hiring up a storm. I've done my Boeing tour-of-duty and really I'd rather pop my eyeballs out of my head with my own fingers than go back to that know-it-all-laden factory.
Just a thought, though, man...they are hiring and they are union-controlled for the everyday Boeing's worker.
I'd love to appy pal, but I do not understand all the high-tech aircraft technical language to know if I'm even qualified or not ???? I briefly looked at it the other day when clearance jobs.com sent me a email. It appeared they weren't hiring for grunts like myself to turn a wrench. It seems they are mainly looking for highly skilled ex-military people who did something like it or a version of that job in the military. I admit most of those jobs I looked at were waaaay over my comprehension level with all the technical language. I guess I'd need somebody like you to interpret it all for me in plain english. But yeah if you see something for a regular grunt by chance lemme know and I'll apply. I do have a little concern about boeing, since Lou Dobbs, reported their largest aircraft "The Dream Liner" well has been outsourced to a lot of country's and it's been a disaster with incomplete parts, un safe parts, being sent to Boeing, from all over the world and the plane is severely back ordered. I as a consumer would have concern about the safety of the plane. It's not like a car where if it quits working or a defect shows up you can safely pull off the road or get out. If a plane quits working properly your pretty much dead meat !!!! :sick:
Still heard nothing from the Buick, Pontiac, GMC dealer I interviewed last week with. I'm also yet to hear something from the chevy dealer I applied for. I didn't hear anything back from the grocery store chain I applied for either last week. I did have a interview with a Cadillac, Hummer, and Lexus, dealership today. They went good but they were interviewing for future replacements for any turn over they might have. My trainer said they told her they were going to hire two last week. So somebody is blowing smoke up my rear. I saw a classmate after my interview who was waiting for his and he wasn't happy either and feels the same as I do. :mad:
I'm suppose to later this week have a interview with a Saturn dealership and they are reviewing my stuff. Personally I'd rather not sell Saturns, not because they are a bad car but because I personally wouldn't buy that type of a vehicle. I look at Saturn, the same way I look at Toyota or Honda. A to B appliance. But beggers like myself can't be choosers. :sick:
I go for a interview, test, application, tomorrow for a armed security job. I do think this one has the most potential of becoming reality at this present momment because I have inside pull.
So yeah, I'm left feeling even more frusterated. I want more than just a lousy job, but rather a career. If something doesn't work out by the middle of next week oh Rocky, will have to settle for a lousy job I'm going to hate. I'm running out of time and money but I've tried my butt off and I can sleep at night knowing I gave 110% and made all my interiews, was always a half hour+ early, and for the last month I've woren nothing but a suit and tie. :shades: I was offered more interviews by various insurance company's and every one and their brother in that field wants me. I said show me the money $$$$$$ and we'll talk. I said if it's strictly commission, cold calling, and door to door or a reflection of it I'm not interested !!!!!
I did have one that called me about selling insurance to unions like the UAW, which did interest me enough to at least hear their spill without jumping to conclusion. I scheduled a interview for tomorrow but found out it would be in my best interest to do everything over (app, test, interview) for the security job and I decided it would be in my best interest to do it in the morning when I'm fresh and well rested than tired like I would be if I gone to the interview for the insurance company. I rescheduled the insurance company for wednesday next week. I also applied for a office furniture maker that paid well but I only had time today to fax them a resume because I was super busy and yes it was a way to apply for the job, the job ad said.
I had to take my leaking rim into the tire shop and yes my LF rim has been leaking but also they found a small hole. Guys I was losing 20-30 pounds of pressure a day but I've had problems with all 4 rims so I just assumed the leak was getting worse. I'm going to have dad pressurize all my rims and make sure they all all even so I can re-set my Tire Pressure monitor. Those damn factory aluminum rims have been roughed up twice already but this tire place had the solution and really roughed them up. I swear they were using a grinder like tool. They said they've seen my type of rims many times before so I guess I'm not the person who has this problem. I said to them my grandfather said they probably were made in china, and the tire guy Todd, said probably. I called Chevrolet's customer service last week and inquired about any recalls on them. They said their isn't much they can do because I was out of warranty but I let them know I wasn't real happy and thought something should be done because I've taken it in twice to the shop and it still leaked !!!!! :mad:
Well that's the latest in my Soap Opera life. It appears that most of the UAW members can live with the contract they got. I even heard some that were so optomistic they believed GM, would draw up plans to build a new plant here in the U.S. by the end of this contract. I said that depends on the economy. I said if some peoples predictions hold true 2009 will be the year we rebound from 2008's slump in auto sales. Maybe I'm getting into the right field but at the wrong time ????
Time will tell........If I don't speak to any of you before Thanksgiving, I want to wish you all a happy one !!!!
Currently the largest Boeing airliner is the 747-400 and soon to be replaced by the 747-8. The second biggest is the 777.
787 is set out to replace the 757/767 fleet so the single aisle version will carry around 200 passengers and the WB version will be around 767 size which is slightly smaller than the 777.
The 787, however, is the NEWEST airliner in the Boeing lineup though.
It appeared they weren't hiring for grunts like myself to turn a wrench. It seems they are mainly looking for highly skilled ex-military people who did something like it or a version of that job in the military. I admit most of those jobs I looked at were waaaay over my comprehension level with all the technical language.
I said if it's strictly commission, cold calling, and door to door or a reflection of it I'm not interested !!!!!
Considering your statements about yourself, it would be informative to know just what exactly are you trained for? And if you consider yourself "grunt" what qualifies you to be better than in a job that's commission, cold calling and door to door?
Commission pays for what you accomplish and cold calling door to door enables you to all the more appreciate the customers who previously bought from you.
It appears you want the Gold without digging for it. (Entitlement attitude?)
After 10 straight days of hard bargaining, the team from General Motors Corp. felt confident on Sunday, Sept. 23, that a deal was nearly done on a new, four-year contract with the United Auto Workers.
But Ron Gettelfinger had other ideas.
Late in the evening, the UAW president burst into the seventh-floor conference room at the UAW-GM Center for Human Resources in Detroit and shattered the notion that an agreement was imminent.
"You guys think you're making so much progress. But I don't think we're getting a final agreement," Gettelfinger said, according to people familiar with the situation. "We're going to set a strike deadline."
And at 11 a.m. Monday, Sept. 24, more than 73,000 GM workers walked off the job in what would prove to be a pivotal event in the historic 2007 auto talks.
The national strike immediately injected a sense of urgency and high drama into the marathon talks between GM and the UAW.
Within two days, the two sides had finalized a landmark contract that created a health care trust for UAW retirees, instituted a precedent-setting two-tier wage system for hourly workers, and provided iron-clad job guarantees at GM factories across the nation.
Yet the contract was more than just another labor agreement between the largest U.S. automaker and its union.
The GM-UAW deal, followed by similar pacts between the union and Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, promises to alter the competitive landscape of the American auto industry, possibly for decades to come.
After struggling under a labor cost gap with Japanese automakers of up to $30-an-hour, Detroit's beleaguered Big Three now have a chance to compete without the burden of spiraling medical bills and high-wage, non-core manufacturing jobs.
For the shrinking membership of the UAW, the contracts provide unprecedented commitments that new products will be built in U.S. factories rather than Mexico, South America or China.
With UAW members completing their ratification vote on Tuesday at Ford, the watershed contracts are in the books -- a full two months after the previous four-year agreements expired on Sept. 14.
In a series of interviews with key players at the companies and the union, The Detroit News has reconstructed events leading to the agreements. Participants agreed to discuss the talks on the condition of anonymity.
Progress slow over summer The ceremonial handshakes between UAW and company officials took place in July, but progress on the major issues of health care and job security was minimal during the summer.
GM and Ford actively sought to be the lead company in the negotiations. But throughout July and August, Gettelfinger gave little indication that he would pick one over the other.
GM Chairman Rick Wagoner had already staked out a leadership role in the Big Three's epic restructuring.
In the fall of 2005, GM had negotiated health care concessions from the UAW that shifted some medical costs onto retirees. Ford later got the same agreement. GM also led the way on offering buyout and early-retirement programs to slash its hourly work force.
Wagoner had privately told GM officials that the 2007 contract talks were essential to fixing the company without resorting to drastic measures such as bankruptcy or a sale to private investors.
"We can do this on our own," Wagoner told company insiders. "We don't need the courts, we don't need outsiders. We can figure this out."
On Sept. 13, GM got the opportunity to control its own destiny.
That day, Cal Rapson, the head of the UAW's GM division, told company officials that Gettelfinger wanted to see Troy Clarke, president of the automaker's North American operations.
In a tense meeting, Gettelfinger laid out the union's stance on the tough talks to come. "We're going to negotiate hard," he told Clarke. "We're not going to bend over backwards."
Clarke showed little emotion, and repeatedly stated that GM needed to dramatically close the cost gap with Toyota Motor Corp. "We've got this problem," he said.
Later that day, the UAW informed its membership that GM would be the "strike target." A few GM officials warily noted that "strike target" sounded far different than "lead company."
With the contract set to expire at 11:59 p.m. on Sept. 14, the UAW granted Ford and Chrysler open-ended extensions. GM's contract, the union said, would be extended on an hour-by-hour basis.
The central issue before the negotiators was never in doubt.
GM was pushing hard for the creation of a union-run trust -- a Voluntary Employees' Beneficiary Association, or VEBA -- to finance $47 billion in future health care obligations for 340,000 GM retirees and surviving spouses.
Gettelfinger, in fact, had supported the idea of a VEBA ever since the 2005 health care talks. But the challenge was how to fund the trust to cover unforeseen increases in medical coverage.
The sides staked out widely divergent positions.
GM, at first, proposed putting up cash and stock totaling 50 percent of the overall health care obligation. The union wanted 100-percent funding.
Bridging the huge gulf would take days of painstaking talks. The union relied heavily on experts from investment banking giant Lazard Ltd. GM's strategy was driven almost exclusively by Chief Financial Officer Fritz Henderson.
While the VEBA talks went on, subcommittees tackled equally sensitive topics such as lower wages for noncore jobs in GM factories, transfer policies for laid-off workers, and the placement of new vehicle programs in specific assembly plants.
Gettelfinger had lead role Dozens of people played roles in the talks, but the central figure was always, unquestionably Gettelfinger.
The UAW president, 63, was an enigma to many on the GM side. During much of the talks, he sat secluded at a computer in a spare office in the Center for Human Resources.
He often slept there overnight, refusing a pillow offered him by GM employees. Instead, he used a plastic bag stuffed with shredded documents from the negotiation sessions.
But both sides knew instantly when Gettelfinger was engaged. On one occasion, Rapson hinted that his UAW boss wanted to turn up the heat at the table. "I'm supposed to be mad at you today," Rapson told the GM team.
In fact, Gettelfinger was playing for high stakes. As badly as GM wanted the VEBA, the union wanted rock-solid guarantees that GM would keep its U.S. assembly plants churning out new vehicles into 2011 and beyond.
On Sept. 18, the talks seemed at an impasse when Gettelfinger declared the VEBA was "off the table." GM's lead negotiator, Diana Tremblay, then presented what company officials dubbed "plan B" -- a series of deep cuts to union wages and drastic hikes in health care bills for active workers.
The confrontation put the talks back on track. By Friday, Sept. 21, the framework for the agreement on product plans had been set. And by Sunday, the VEBA funding seemed settled at roughly 68 percent of GM's total obligation.
Then Gettelfinger shocked GM by setting his strike deadline.
GM officials were baffled when the UAW bargainers left the table just before 11 a.m. Monday, Sept. 24. Meanwhile, television camera crews were capturing the spectacle live of tens of thousands of GM workers walking off the job at plants across the United States.
In a dramatic press conference at UAW headquarters in Detroit, Gettelfinger accused GM of ignoring the union's deadline for a deal.
"Nobody wants a strike," he said. "But there comes a time when somebody pushes you off a cliff and that's exactly what happened."
But this was no ordinary strike. By 2 p.m., both sides had returned to the table. One insider called the pace "frenetic," as negotiators plowed through the key points of the contract in a 40-hour session. Several outstanding issues were locked up, including the final details of which plants would receive which future products.
At 3:05 a.m. on Sept. 26, Gettelfinger said the deal was done and the strike was over.
"We feel very good about this tentative agreement," he said. "I think the strike helped our side more than theirs."
Then it was Chrysler's turn While the GM contract moved to a series of ratification votes by workers, the question hovering over the industry was who came next -- Ford or Chrysler?
On Oct. 5, Gettelfinger gave the answer by showing up at Chrysler headquarters in Auburn Hills ready to negotiate.
Chrysler promised to be a wild card in the talks. The smallest of the Detroit automakers, Chrysler had been sold in August by its German parent, Daimler AG, to the secretive private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP.
After acquiring Chrysler, Cerberus shook up the automaker's management and installed a new chief executive officer, former Home Depot CEO Bob Nardelli. The whirlwind changes had instilled UAW members with a sense of caution, even mistrust, about the upcoming negotiations.
Nardelli tried to calm the union's fears by meeting with UAW bargainers on his first day on the job. "Cerberus wants to restore Chrysler to its rightful place," he said. "We respect collective bargaining."
But when intensive talks kicked off at Chrysler, it quickly became clear that getting a contract would be a challenge.
From the start, privately-held Chrysler was unwilling to offer the same product guarantees that GM had agreed to. Moreover, Chrysler wanted to sell off some union-staffed facilities such as its Mopar parts distribution centers.
The friction was palpable in the main bargaining room on the lower level of Chrysler's headquarters tower. Insiders said that John Franciosi, the company's top labor executive, had heated words early on with General Holiefield, head of the UAW's Chrysler division.
One key member of the UAW team, Bill Parker, was also highly critical of the company's reluctance to guarantee any products at plants beyond the life of the four-year agreement.
Talks began at a snail's pace, but picked up steam by Monday, Oct. 8. Chrysler received more favorable funding terms for its VEBA than GM had gotten. On the thorny issue of Mopar, Chrysler agreed to keep the parts centers in exchange for the union allowing the closure of a small assembly plant on Conner Avenue in Detroit.
But by the evening of Oct. 9, the two sides were still battling over product guarantees. With a strike deadline set for the next morning, negotiations were once again going down to the wire.
Less than an hour before the 11 a.m. strike deadline on Oct. 10, Gettelfinger presented a summary of a tentative agreement to his bargaining team. Then when the UAW president left the room, the bargaining team voted overwhelmingly to reject the deal.
No negotiating team had ever rejected a proposed deal recommended by the UAW's leadership. But with no tentative agreement in hand, tens of thousands of Chrysler workers began walking off the job at 11 a.m.
Chrysler executives were dumbfounded by the turn of events. All they could do was watch TV reports of pickets at Chrysler plants across Michigan, Illinois, Ohio and elsewhere.
Over the next six hours, Gettelfinger and Holiefield lobbied the bargaining team to support the tentative pact. A second vote failed, but on a third vote the committee voted 8-to-1 to accept it. The lone dissenter was Parker, who said in a "minority report" to leaders of Chrysler union locals that the automaker's failure to give product guarantees amounted to "economic terrorism."
The strike was called off just after 5 p.m., but the walkout was only a prelude to one of the roughest contract ratification votes in UAW history. Over the next two weeks, the vote swung wildly at plant after plant, until the contract passed by a narrow margin on Oct. 27.
Ford needed a break The last stop for Gettelfinger was Ford, the financially-sickest of the Detroit automakers.
The UAW chief arrived for intensive talks on Oct. 30, but the groundwork for a contract at Ford had been laid for many months.
Gettelfinger and his chief lieutenant for Ford, Bob King, had held a summit meeting on May 11 with Ford CEO Alan Mulally to prepare for the hard decisions upcoming at Ford.
"We need a more viable, profitable Ford," Mulally told the union leaders. "If we can get that, we will do the right thing and invest in America."
What Ford needed most from the union was a large break on VEBA funding, and an opportunity to replace up to 20 percent of its 54,000 UAW workers with lower-wage positions.
Ford would ultimately get a VEBA funding level of 57 percent, and a clear path to put two-tier wages in quicker than GM or Chrysler. In exchange, the union won broad product commitments at assembly plants and a commitment for new investments in flexible body shops.
The pace of talks at Ford headquarters in Dearborn was accelerated compared to the drawn-out discussions at GM or the stop-and-go negotiations at Chrysler.
By late Friday, Nov. 2, bargainers for the company and UAW had talked continuously for almost two days without a break. Negotiations were taking place simultaneously on the second, sixth and eleventh floors of Ford's "Glass House" offices.
By 8 p.m., several exhausted members of the Ford and union teams went home for the evening. Negotiators expected to get a night's rest and return over the weekend to wrap up details.
But Gettelfinger was having none of it. The UAW president was seen prowling the halls, peering into darkened offices and wondering where the bargaining teams had gone.
He ended up in the office of Joe Laymon, Ford's head of human resources and labor affairs. Gettelfinger was succinct in what he thought about negotiators taking a break from the talks in the final hours.
"Get their a---- back in here and let's finish the deal," he told Laymon.
The teams returned within the hour and resumed bargaining. Even Mulally sat in on the last stages of discussions on the VEBA. At 3:20 a.m. on Nov. 3, Gettelfinger announced that Ford and the union had reached agreement.
From the outside looking in, industry experts are still marveling at what took place at the bargaining table -- and what it will mean for the Big Three and the UAW. "This agreement is the real turning point," said veteran auto analyst John Casesa. "This contract is an enabler, and without it nothing else matters."
-Rocky
P.S. I apologize for my contribution for getting us side tracked. I hope these latest string of very interesting "on-topic" posts helps get us back on track.
Congress created the benefit in 1972 and in 1997 extended the period private insurers must pay the costs from 12 months to 30 months.
I find that an interesting situation. The government creates a welfare health plan, then cuts the benefits when it costs them money. Now the Democrats want to cut the benefits even more out to 42 months. Why not just quit covering people at all? They are on average only going to live 60 months with that condition. Now that the UAW is strapped with the cost of health care for many of those cases the Democrats turn their back on the Union. hmmmmm
missing a point, which concerns the VEBAs that the Big 3 are creating (or the union is creating, whichever)...
It has been said for years that the Japanese have a cost advantage over us because Hon/Toy/Nis do not pay for health benefits, as it is paid by the Japanese gov't, so health care is, literally, "off the books"
My greatest fear was that this may have been used to push the USA into socialized medicine which scares the daylights out of me ("If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free")...
Now, it seems that we have a free market solution (this is either where I completely understand it, or completely miss the boat)...funds that the Big 3 WOULD have used for health care funding has been transferred to the control of the UAW, who will manage it for their members...if costs rise to more than the allotted yearly amount, then it will be the union who tells its members that they either have to cut benefits or raise costs (deductibles, copays, and non-covered items and procedures), which the members will have to accept, as opposed to striking because GM says they can't pay for it...
If the union earns a healthy return on the money, they will have $$$ to pay for more benefits, but if they mismanage the money, then, potentially, the entire health care fund could evaporate and there would be NO health care coverage at all, and the members can only scream at their union rather than the Big 3...
Am I right???...was this the simple free market solution staring us in the face all the time???
Can this concept be carried over into other industries, where the major (and minor) companies simply turn over health care to some fiduciary employee organization, let them manage it for their members, and the companies can simply wash their hands of any cost increases in the future???...Shouldn't all companies move to this model, so if the plans fail the employees can only blame themselves???
This almost sounds too good to be true...
What am I missing in my logic???
Euphonium: yes, never forget that the entitlement attitude permeates every cell of the being of our friend...but I still wish him the best of luck and hard work in finding the job where he will grow to his highest potential...:):):)
As I understand it your interpretation of the agreement is correct.
I suspect that the joker in the deck is the possibility of the union blowing through the money. That'll put national health care right back on the map.
I don't consider that as big a disaster as you do but the devil being in the details, yeah I'd be wary.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
missing a point, which concerns the VEBAs that the Big 3 are creating (or the union is creating, whichever)...
It has been said for years that the Japanese have a cost advantage over us because Hon/Toy/Nis do not pay for health benefits, as it is paid by the Japanese gov't, so health care is, literally, "off the books"
My greatest fear was that this may have been used to push the USA into socialized medicine which scares the daylights out of me ("If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free")...
Now, it seems that we have a free market solution (this is either where I completely understand it, or completely miss the boat)...funds that the Big 3 WOULD have used for health care funding has been transferred to the control of the UAW, who will manage it for their members...if costs rise to more than the allotted yearly amount, then it will be the union who tells its members that they either have to cut benefits or raise costs (deductibles, copays, and non-covered items and procedures), which the members will have to accept, as opposed to striking because GM says they can't pay for it...
If the union earns a healthy return on the money, they will have $$$ to pay for more benefits, but if they mismanage the money, then, potentially, the entire health care fund could evaporate and there would be NO health care coverage at all, and the members can only scream at their union rather than the Big 3...
Am I right???...was this the simple free market solution staring us in the face all the time???
Can this concept be carried over into other industries, where the major (and minor) companies simply turn over health care to some fiduciary employee organization, let them manage it for their members, and the companies can simply wash their hands of any cost increases in the future???...Shouldn't all companies move to this model, so if the plans fail the employees can only blame themselves???
This almost sounds too good to be true...
That is more less the case marsha7. If all employers wanted to do this yes they probably could but a small group of people taking control of a fund like this would likely loose money and go belly up. You need a sufficient amount of money to start with and not just a few hundred million to make this work as caterpillar has shown us.
Euphonium: yes, never forget that the entitlement attitude permeates every cell of the being of our friend...
I did not respond out of respect to that personal attack at me keeping this forum on-topic. Every person I've ever met has some form of entitlement and the word "grunt" is a loosely used military word used to describe the soldiers in the field who are performing the task that the Generals (management) planned.
but I still wish him the best of luck and hard work in finding the job where he will grow to his highest potential...
Well that is why the UAW, made sure to get enough money so the fund can sustain itself for atleast 80 years making sure every elgible retiree using the VEBA plan will receive benefits there whole life.
when I got my Boeing job I had a Technical Diploma in Graphic Arts/Printing from Washington Technical Institute in Seattle. That and a high school diploma was what I needed to get my job in Production Illustration. I had some junior high/high school drafting courses in school.
That was in October of 1979. All of us hired at the same time I was were entered in to a 6-month training program working on 767 drawings(that's why we were hired, the new 767 program was just starting to ramp up)but many of us were sent to 747/767 P.I. and we worked on both airplane programs. I didn't know anything about Boeing jet aircraft drawings at that hire-in time.
Now, that was in late 1979. Maybe Boeing requires 4-year college degrees and military experience of some kind to get hired on. But don't worry about being able to speak the lingo right now. If wrench turning is all you feel comfortable trying to get hired in for right now and you can't think of any other skill you have Boeing might want, maybe bagging the Boeing idea is what you should do.
Unfortunately, the Californians and Realtors have amped up real estate pricing in the Puget Sound Region so badly, too, that entry level apartments will cost you dearly to get in to. Road rage is a way of life in the Seattle area, too. There are some definite downsides to going to work for Boeing Airplane Company, but, though I gripe about their irritating layoff habits, it was a good place to work. Good pay and great benefits and you could find all the challenge you wanted for your brain. It occasionally could get very stressful to meet drawing deadlines. We would need to brew lots of strong Starbuck's coffee up and dig in for the daily stress grind. It's a satisfying job in the end.
rockford...it is strongly union-held, too. That's why I can't help but thinking you might be happy there. Sometimes Boeing holds job fairs in the Seattle-Everett area that would enable you to talk to Boeing recruiters at length and get signed up for testing, etc. Hiring is going on in a large manner right now, AFAIK.
The health care includes a large pot of money. The large pot of money has not improved congress's ability to handle and manage money; what will it do to union leaders. Shades of labor union leaders from a few decades back.
That pot will be mishandled.
Socialized medicine a la HillaryCare will not be the answer. Look at the CHIPS now SCHIPS program's attitude of including adults and including incomes up near $80K. I recall when the Clintons wanted a tax cut for the low income but then defined that as $20K and below leaving middle class taxpayers without the taxcut for which they voted for Billary thinking they would get. Oh well, was the attitude. Wait till you see nationalized health care more than it already exists.
As for "our friend" I'm not sure I read that he feels he deserves everything without working which you called "entitlement." Are you meaning that being prounion is wrong and calling that entitlement?
Wait till you see nationalized health care more than it already exists.
Why wait? Just look as the mess with our government run VA hospitals dems were crying about a few months back, they can't even manage a few hospitals, now imagine them taking over all of healthcare!! God help us!!!
I personally have a Canadian from from London Ontario who'd be dead right now if not for him traveling to Detroit for treatment. No matter what the dems call it, it'll be socialized medicine plain and simple
Socialized medicine a la HillaryCare will not be the answer. Look at the CHIPS now SCHIPS program's attitude of including adults and including incomes up near $80K.
Looks like the Dems are playing a shell game. Take money from the dialysis patients and give it to the wealthy via the SCHIPS program. Just a vote getting program, is all it amounts to.
I think if the UAW develops a good board of directors to administer the health care, it will work. Like was pointed out, the Union will then have to police those that abuse the plan. That was what happened in our Union Health Care program.
Too bad he wasn't selling Cadillacs. I'd have been proud to have been his first customer. I did buy my car from the same dealership and salesman who sold me the Seville STS.
Are ya selling insurance or Saturn's? Update me please.
iluv, I was hired last week wednesday by a "unionized" insurance company that has a primary market in union supplement plans.I will be meeting with UAW members, Teamster's, IUE-CWA, etc, etc.... I really liked this company and my would be boss seems really cool so they were the first to offer me a job and I took it. The first job I interviewed for in my life where I bragging about being very pro-union actually was a benefit !!! I interviewed last week thursday at a local dealer who sold KIA's. I had some competition for the job including my classmates who took the same professional course as I. I also had competition from experienced salesman who worked at other dealerships in the area who wanted to work for this dealership because they do have a great pay plan, benefits, and are well organized. They also have some of the nicest dealerships you could walk into. So this week I took my state required pre-licensing class for insurance and received my certificate of completion late this afternoon. I went from 8 till 5 at the University of Phoenix, everyday and ol' Rocky, has honestly been hitting the books pretty damn hard pal. I have my state exam on Monday, at 4:30 and boy it's going to be tough. It's like cramming a semester's worth of material inside a week our instructor said. My brain is spinning more than the tires on a 2009' CTS-V :P The fact is 49% of the people who take this test the first time pass it. Those aren't good odds but if I fail it I'll retake it until I pass !!!! I'm going to hit the books hard all weekend and on monday. I think I'll do fine.
and rockylee is so fully-informed with the GM product line. Selling any of the GM lineup should serve him very, very well.
I really appreciate that iluv, and yes they all made a huge mistake not hiring me. :confuse: I am still shocked I'm not selling cars. :surprise:
study hard for your state exam some more this weekend and you'll do fine, man. I know about tests because of all the Respiratory Therapy ones in school and clinical tests in the teaching hospitals, then you have your national licensing exam to pass.
I remember being so stoked when I found out that I had passed my exam...all of that hard work and countless hours studying. It is awesome when the fruits of your labors are realized. I was so happy I could yell it out from the tops of the buildings downtown!
Good deal, yep, they did miss the mark when they skipped hiring you. Hang in there and let us know. I think you'll do great!
Comments
-Rocky
-Rocky
I did my interview/meeting arrived about 40 minutes early and waited about a hour to do my interview. I got pawned off from the General Manager, tothe Sales Manager, that did about a 5 minute interview and sent me along my way. He told me if I don't hear back from him by the end of next week give him a call. I guess I have to go for a 2nd interview....This is ridiculous as I hadbeen through two at the toyota, dealer already. My trainer was not happy as they only hired 8 people when the number was suppose to be 15. My trainer said they would of made more cuts but was told a couple of weeks ago their dealership needed trained body's. So basically I got a bunch of SMOKE blown straight up my tail pipe from the toyota, sales manager last friday and do not know my status. It from being a gaurantee to I don't know ???? :sick:
My trainer did get me another lead with a local chevrolet dealer about a mile from my house. They told them I was coming. I filled out a application and was told I would be contacted at a later date for a interview but yes they were hiring.
I also was informed by my trainer that Saturn of Grand Rapids, wants some of us and they would get a hold of me when to go down there. I did give them some leads on who to call and yes they called one of the two dealerships I was interested in already and are waiting a response.
I did a brief interview with a major grocery chain this afternoon as a manager trainee. It starts at $19.38 an/hr. and they said if they have further interest I would be contacted by monday.
Well I'm just glad the UAW contracts are settled nowand hopefully progress and the turnarounds can continue. It's a relief knowing my family members will not be eating Alpo, any time soon.
-Rocky
If not now, when? If not here, where? IMO you would benefit a lot by enduring military discipline, being part of a TO&E outfit for a minimum of two years.
One of my college room mates made a wonderful 30 year career after being commissioned a 2nd Lt. via ROTC, retired with a Masters as an O6.
Personally, it is my experienced opinion that every male graduate from HS, receive his diploma with one hand and his two year active duty orders with the other.
This is followed by 16 weeks of Basic and Advanced Infantry Training, then transferred to wherever he is needed. NO CO's, no deferments, no excuses, and every male participates. Tough? Sure, but it's what this country needs.
-Rocky
The US moreso needs leadership that can talk the talk and walk the walk.
I realize that when one has no job and is strenuously looking for employment, interviews like your experience at Toy simply seem a waste of time...but, trying to always find a silver lining, I see it differently...sometimes you need to be exposed to something you don't want in addition to what you do want...it is almost like the thinking of Dr. Wayne Dyer, that maybe you are not meant for Toy...just because the human wants the perfect job NOW does not mean that the Universe is ready to give it to you, until YOU show the Universe that you are ready for it...worthless interviews may give you the experience to be better at the job that is RIGHT for you, whatever that is...
Rocky, there is an old saying in the insurance business...the story goes that when one is selling life insurance, only one in ten people will buy from you...the negative-minded person can only think that 90% of the market prospects will turn him down...how depressing...
The positive-minded person can hardly wait to approach as many people as possible, because the faster he hears "no" from nine people, he will make a sale and make his commission...
Same identical fact pattern, one sees it as a downer, one sees it as a great opportunity...
Your opportunity is out there, and I believe ou will find it...but always be sure you are mentally receptive to receive good things, and understand that sometimes the worst negative may lead to the best positive...
Keep the faith...
I am amazed at the number of people, folks who are very successful, either failed in their earlier attempts or were fired from what they thought was a secure job...at first, being fired seems bad, but only because the human mind detests change and loves "security"...
But many successful people, when they look back and reflect, are often GRATEFUL for being fired, because it may have forced them out of their rut (rut: a grave that simply extends beyond six feet long) or forced them to make changes that improved their lives, but changes that NEVER would have been made if they had not been forced out of their job by a superior...
The only difference between the failure and the success is simple...both have been repeatedly knocked down, but the failure gave up and the success got up one more time...
Change is constant...some folks die because they are scared of change because they have no faith in their own ability to adapt...thsoe that are secure within themselves welcome change as an opportunity to grow as a person, learn new skills, meet new people, maybe find emplyment that was better than what they had THAT THEY THOUGHT MADE THEM HAPPY...since Nature will always throw curve balls at us, we can either welcome the ongoing challenges of life or sink into depression and live on Lithium, Valium, and other mind-numbing drugs...
Welcome the challenges you are about to face, never get complacent because somewhere down the road, again, you will face more new challenges, and the positive person thrives on challenges...
Always be the positive person, even in the midst of negative circumstances, because you are equipped with the means to meet the challenge, unless you let yourself down and fail to meet the challenge...
Do not be afraid of failure...when Thomas Edison was asked how he can keep trying to invent the electric filament when he had already "failed" over 10,000 times, he responded..."Failed...hogwash...I now know 10,000 ways it WON'T work...that isn't failure"
Keep trying...your best is yet to come...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%282006_film%29
I guess when you've been kicked around like a old useless dog like I have been for the last six-months a little optomism will turn to a little negativity once in a while. Trust me it's short-lived negativity and I try to awake each day believing some good will happen to me.
-Rocky
I had been out of work for 3 months when a guy calls me on a Thursday in early June at 10:30 AM in for an interview. I go the following Monday and Bam! I got the job! What was even better was I got to travel and stay in nice places. By mid July I'm lying on a float in the pool of a Hyatt Regency sipping a Manhattan and thinking,
"Just a few months ago I thought it was the end of the world!"
"Just a few months ago I thought it was the end of the world!"
Ain't life Grand? I think with the determination Rocky shows, that will be him in no time.
The UAW folks that still have jobs should be pleased. They have a few years to save money and prepare for what may happen to the Big 3.
Just my encouragement for rocky and his eventual new job...
Once he is on his feet, then we can go back to bashing his unionized thinking processes...for now, he gets a hiatus...:):):):):):):)
I guess the UAW is still striking Navistar.
For female conscripts, check out the Politics discussion (wiki says Israel still has them but combat roles are voluntary).
I really do appreciate that gagrice.
The UAW folks that still have jobs should be pleased. They have a few years to save money and prepare for what may happen to the Big 3.
I hope you are wrong but yeah they should be saving !!!! The new hires don't make enough to save therefore they need to eliminate as much risk as possible just in case the ship goes belly up !!!
-Rocky
P.S. I haven't heard anything yet today. I might give my trainer a jingle and see if she has gotten back with a couple dealerships.
-Rocky
So the UAW, needs to also strike for engineering as the Stroke is a bad to the bone engine when it's running it's reliability is a pile dung !!!!
-Rocky
Don't forget the neutral country Switzerland. All able-bodied Swiss males aged between 19 and 31 must serve in the Swiss military. And, that means they are in the military between age 19 and 31 continuous, either active or reserve.
One of the primary reasons the Swiss can remain neutral is the strength of their military. The last time I was in Switzerland, I saw (and, this is no joke) a section of the side of a Swiss mountain open up, and out flew a Harrier jump jet! They have placed these operational aircraft actually inside some of the Swiss mountains or Alps with camouflaged hydraulically operated doors. It's really amazing stuff . . . and, this is only one example of their stealthy military.
Back to the UAW discussion . . .
Just a thought, though, man...they are hiring and they are union-controlled for the everyday Boeing's worker.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'd love to appy pal, but I do not understand all the high-tech aircraft technical language to know if I'm even qualified or not ???? I briefly looked at it the other day when clearance jobs.com sent me a email. It appeared they weren't hiring for grunts like myself to turn a wrench. It seems they are mainly looking for highly skilled ex-military people who did something like it or a version of that job in the military. I admit most of those jobs I looked at were waaaay over my comprehension level with all the technical language. I guess I'd need somebody like you to interpret it all for me in plain english.
-Rocky
Still heard nothing from the Buick, Pontiac, GMC dealer I interviewed last week with. I'm also yet to hear something from the chevy dealer I applied for. I didn't hear anything back from the grocery store chain I applied for either last week. I did have a interview with a Cadillac, Hummer, and Lexus, dealership today. They went good but they were interviewing for future replacements for any turn over they might have. My trainer said they told her they were going to hire two last week. So somebody is blowing smoke up my rear. I saw a classmate after my interview who was waiting for his and he wasn't happy either and feels the same as I do. :mad:
I'm suppose to later this week have a interview with a Saturn dealership and they are reviewing my stuff. Personally I'd rather not sell Saturns, not because they are a bad car but because I personally wouldn't buy that type of a vehicle. I look at Saturn, the same way I look at Toyota or Honda. A to B appliance.
I go for a interview, test, application, tomorrow for a armed security job. I do think this one has the most potential of becoming reality at this present momment because I have inside pull.
So yeah, I'm left feeling even more frusterated. I want more than just a lousy job, but rather a career. If something doesn't work out by the middle of next week oh Rocky, will have to settle for a lousy job I'm going to hate. I'm running out of time and money but I've tried my butt off and I can sleep at night knowing I gave 110% and made all my interiews, was always a half hour+ early, and for the last month I've woren nothing but a suit and tie. :shades: I was offered more interviews by various insurance company's and every one and their brother in that field wants me. I said show me the money $$$$$$ and we'll talk. I said if it's strictly commission, cold calling, and door to door or a reflection of it I'm not interested !!!!!
I did have one that called me about selling insurance to unions like the UAW, which did interest me enough to at least hear their spill without jumping to conclusion. I scheduled a interview for tomorrow but found out it would be in my best interest to do everything over (app, test, interview) for the security job and I decided it would be in my best interest to do it in the morning when I'm fresh and well rested than tired like I would be if I gone to the interview for the insurance company. I rescheduled the insurance company for wednesday next week. I also applied for a office furniture maker that paid well but I only had time today to fax them a resume because I was super busy and yes it was a way to apply for the job, the job ad said.
I had to take my leaking rim into the tire shop and yes my LF rim has been leaking but also they found a small hole. Guys I was losing 20-30 pounds of pressure a day but I've had problems with all 4 rims so I just assumed the leak was getting worse. I'm going to have dad pressurize all my rims and make sure they all all even so I can re-set my Tire Pressure monitor. Those damn factory aluminum rims have been roughed up twice already but this tire place had the solution and really roughed them up. I swear they were using a grinder like tool. They said they've seen my type of rims many times before so I guess I'm not the person who has this problem. I said to them my grandfather said they probably were made in china, and the tire guy Todd, said probably.
Well that's the latest in my Soap Opera life. It appears that most of the UAW members can live with the contract they got. I even heard some that were so optomistic they believed GM, would draw up plans to build a new plant here in the U.S. by the end of this contract. I said that depends on the economy. I said if some peoples predictions hold true 2009 will be the year we rebound from 2008's slump in auto sales. Maybe I'm getting into the right field but at the wrong time ????
Time will tell........If I don't speak to any of you before Thanksgiving, I want to wish you all a happy one !!!!
-Rocky
Currently the largest Boeing airliner is the 747-400 and soon to be replaced by the 747-8. The second biggest is the 777.
787 is set out to replace the 757/767 fleet so the single aisle version will carry around 200 passengers and the WB version will be around 767 size which is slightly smaller than the 777.
The 787, however, is the NEWEST airliner in the Boeing lineup though.
Just to set the record straight, now back to UAW.
I said if it's strictly commission, cold calling, and door to door or a reflection of it I'm not interested !!!!!
Considering your statements about yourself, it would be informative to know just what exactly are you trained for? And if you consider yourself "grunt" what qualifies you to be better than in a job that's commission, cold calling and door to door?
Commission pays for what you accomplish and cold calling door to door enables you to all the more appreciate the customers who previously bought from you.
It appears you want the Gold without digging for it. (Entitlement attitude?)
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
But Ron Gettelfinger had other ideas.
Late in the evening, the UAW president burst into the seventh-floor conference room at the UAW-GM Center for Human Resources in Detroit and shattered the notion that an agreement was imminent.
"You guys think you're making so much progress. But I don't think we're getting a final agreement," Gettelfinger said, according to people familiar with the situation. "We're going to set a strike deadline."
And at 11 a.m. Monday, Sept. 24, more than 73,000 GM workers walked off the job in what would prove to be a pivotal event in the historic 2007 auto talks.
The national strike immediately injected a sense of urgency and high drama into the marathon talks between GM and the UAW.
Within two days, the two sides had finalized a landmark contract that created a health care trust for UAW retirees, instituted a precedent-setting two-tier wage system for hourly workers, and provided iron-clad job guarantees at GM factories across the nation.
Yet the contract was more than just another labor agreement between the largest U.S. automaker and its union.
The GM-UAW deal, followed by similar pacts between the union and Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, promises to alter the competitive landscape of the American auto industry, possibly for decades to come.
After struggling under a labor cost gap with Japanese automakers of up to $30-an-hour, Detroit's beleaguered Big Three now have a chance to compete without the burden of spiraling medical bills and high-wage, non-core manufacturing jobs.
For the shrinking membership of the UAW, the contracts provide unprecedented commitments that new products will be built in U.S. factories rather than Mexico, South America or China.
With UAW members completing their ratification vote on Tuesday at Ford, the watershed contracts are in the books -- a full two months after the previous four-year agreements expired on Sept. 14.
In a series of interviews with key players at the companies and the union, The Detroit News has reconstructed events leading to the agreements. Participants agreed to discuss the talks on the condition of anonymity.
Progress slow over summer
The ceremonial handshakes between UAW and company officials took place in July, but progress on the major issues of health care and job security was minimal during the summer.
GM and Ford actively sought to be the lead company in the negotiations. But throughout July and August, Gettelfinger gave little indication that he would pick one over the other.
GM Chairman Rick Wagoner had already staked out a leadership role in the Big Three's epic restructuring.
In the fall of 2005, GM had negotiated health care concessions from the UAW that shifted some medical costs onto retirees. Ford later got the same agreement. GM also led the way on offering buyout and early-retirement programs to slash its hourly work force.
Wagoner had privately told GM officials that the 2007 contract talks were essential to fixing the company without resorting to drastic measures such as bankruptcy or a sale to private investors.
"We can do this on our own," Wagoner told company insiders. "We don't need the courts, we don't need outsiders. We can figure this out."
On Sept. 13, GM got the opportunity to control its own destiny.
That day, Cal Rapson, the head of the UAW's GM division, told company officials that Gettelfinger wanted to see Troy Clarke, president of the automaker's North American operations.
In a tense meeting, Gettelfinger laid out the union's stance on the tough talks to come. "We're going to negotiate hard," he told Clarke. "We're not going to bend over backwards."
Clarke showed little emotion, and repeatedly stated that GM needed to dramatically close the cost gap with Toyota Motor Corp. "We've got this problem," he said.
Later that day, the UAW informed its membership that GM would be the "strike target." A few GM officials warily noted that "strike target" sounded far different than "lead company."
With the contract set to expire at 11:59 p.m. on Sept. 14, the UAW granted Ford and Chrysler open-ended extensions. GM's contract, the union said, would be extended on an hour-by-hour basis.
The central issue before the negotiators was never in doubt.
GM was pushing hard for the creation of a union-run trust -- a Voluntary Employees' Beneficiary Association, or VEBA -- to finance $47 billion in future health care obligations for 340,000 GM retirees and surviving spouses.
Gettelfinger, in fact, had supported the idea of a VEBA ever since the 2005 health care talks. But the challenge was how to fund the trust to cover unforeseen increases in medical coverage.
The sides staked out widely divergent positions.
GM, at first, proposed putting up cash and stock totaling 50 percent of the overall health care obligation. The union wanted 100-percent funding.
Bridging the huge gulf would take days of painstaking talks. The union relied heavily on experts from investment banking giant Lazard Ltd. GM's strategy was driven almost exclusively by Chief Financial Officer Fritz Henderson.
While the VEBA talks went on, subcommittees tackled equally sensitive topics such as lower wages for noncore jobs in GM factories, transfer policies for laid-off workers, and the placement of new vehicle programs in specific assembly plants.
Gettelfinger had lead role
Dozens of people played roles in the talks, but the central figure was always, unquestionably Gettelfinger.
The UAW president, 63, was an enigma to many on the GM side. During much of the talks, he sat secluded at a computer in a spare office in the Center for Human Resources.
He often slept there overnight, refusing a pillow offered him by GM employees. Instead, he used a plastic bag stuffed with shredded documents from the negotiation sessions.
But both sides knew instantly when Gettelfinger was engaged. On one occasion, Rapson hinted that his UAW boss wanted to turn up the heat at the table. "I'm supposed to be mad at you today," Rapson told the GM team.
In fact, Gettelfinger was playing for high stakes. As badly as GM wanted the VEBA, the union wanted rock-solid guarantees that GM would keep its U.S. assembly plants churning out new vehicles into 2011 and beyond.
On Sept. 18, the talks seemed at an impasse when Gettelfinger declared the VEBA was "off the table." GM's lead negotiator, Diana Tremblay, then presented what company officials dubbed "plan B" -- a series of deep cuts to union wages and drastic hikes in health care bills for active workers.
con't..........
Then Gettelfinger shocked GM by setting his strike deadline.
GM officials were baffled when the UAW bargainers left the table just before 11 a.m. Monday, Sept. 24. Meanwhile, television camera crews were capturing the spectacle live of tens of thousands of GM workers walking off the job at plants across the United States.
In a dramatic press conference at UAW headquarters in Detroit, Gettelfinger accused GM of ignoring the union's deadline for a deal.
"Nobody wants a strike," he said. "But there comes a time when somebody pushes you off a cliff and that's exactly what happened."
But this was no ordinary strike. By 2 p.m., both sides had returned to the table. One insider called the pace "frenetic," as negotiators plowed through the key points of the contract in a 40-hour session. Several outstanding issues were locked up, including the final details of which plants would receive which future products.
At 3:05 a.m. on Sept. 26, Gettelfinger said the deal was done and the strike was over.
"We feel very good about this tentative agreement," he said. "I think the strike helped our side more than theirs."
Then it was Chrysler's turn
While the GM contract moved to a series of ratification votes by workers, the question hovering over the industry was who came next -- Ford or Chrysler?
On Oct. 5, Gettelfinger gave the answer by showing up at Chrysler headquarters in Auburn Hills ready to negotiate.
Chrysler promised to be a wild card in the talks. The smallest of the Detroit automakers, Chrysler had been sold in August by its German parent, Daimler AG, to the secretive private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP.
After acquiring Chrysler, Cerberus shook up the automaker's management and installed a new chief executive officer, former Home Depot CEO Bob Nardelli. The whirlwind changes had instilled UAW members with a sense of caution, even mistrust, about the upcoming negotiations.
Nardelli tried to calm the union's fears by meeting with UAW bargainers on his first day on the job. "Cerberus wants to restore Chrysler to its rightful place," he said. "We respect collective bargaining."
But when intensive talks kicked off at Chrysler, it quickly became clear that getting a contract would be a challenge.
From the start, privately-held Chrysler was unwilling to offer the same product guarantees that GM had agreed to. Moreover, Chrysler wanted to sell off some union-staffed facilities such as its Mopar parts distribution centers.
The friction was palpable in the main bargaining room on the lower level of Chrysler's headquarters tower. Insiders said that John Franciosi, the company's top labor executive, had heated words early on with General Holiefield, head of the UAW's Chrysler division.
One key member of the UAW team, Bill Parker, was also highly critical of the company's reluctance to guarantee any products at plants beyond the life of the four-year agreement.
Talks began at a snail's pace, but picked up steam by Monday, Oct. 8. Chrysler received more favorable funding terms for its VEBA than GM had gotten. On the thorny issue of Mopar, Chrysler agreed to keep the parts centers in exchange for the union allowing the closure of a small assembly plant on Conner Avenue in Detroit.
But by the evening of Oct. 9, the two sides were still battling over product guarantees. With a strike deadline set for the next morning, negotiations were once again going down to the wire.
Less than an hour before the 11 a.m. strike deadline on Oct. 10, Gettelfinger presented a summary of a tentative agreement to his bargaining team. Then when the UAW president left the room, the bargaining team voted overwhelmingly to reject the deal.
No negotiating team had ever rejected a proposed deal recommended by the UAW's leadership. But with no tentative agreement in hand, tens of thousands of Chrysler workers began walking off the job at 11 a.m.
Chrysler executives were dumbfounded by the turn of events. All they could do was watch TV reports of pickets at Chrysler plants across Michigan, Illinois, Ohio and elsewhere.
Over the next six hours, Gettelfinger and Holiefield lobbied the bargaining team to support the tentative pact. A second vote failed, but on a third vote the committee voted 8-to-1 to accept it. The lone dissenter was Parker, who said in a "minority report" to leaders of Chrysler union locals that the automaker's failure to give product guarantees amounted to "economic terrorism."
The strike was called off just after 5 p.m., but the walkout was only a prelude to one of the roughest contract ratification votes in UAW history. Over the next two weeks, the vote swung wildly at plant after plant, until the contract passed by a narrow margin on Oct. 27.
Ford needed a break
The last stop for Gettelfinger was Ford, the financially-sickest of the Detroit automakers.
The UAW chief arrived for intensive talks on Oct. 30, but the groundwork for a contract at Ford had been laid for many months.
Gettelfinger and his chief lieutenant for Ford, Bob King, had held a summit meeting on May 11 with Ford CEO Alan Mulally to prepare for the hard decisions upcoming at Ford.
"We need a more viable, profitable Ford," Mulally told the union leaders. "If we can get that, we will do the right thing and invest in America."
What Ford needed most from the union was a large break on VEBA funding, and an opportunity to replace up to 20 percent of its 54,000 UAW workers with lower-wage positions.
Ford would ultimately get a VEBA funding level of 57 percent, and a clear path to put two-tier wages in quicker than GM or Chrysler. In exchange, the union won broad product commitments at assembly plants and a commitment for new investments in flexible body shops.
The pace of talks at Ford headquarters in Dearborn was accelerated compared to the drawn-out discussions at GM or the stop-and-go negotiations at Chrysler.
By late Friday, Nov. 2, bargainers for the company and UAW had talked continuously for almost two days without a break. Negotiations were taking place simultaneously on the second, sixth and eleventh floors of Ford's "Glass House" offices.
By 8 p.m., several exhausted members of the Ford and union teams went home for the evening. Negotiators expected to get a night's rest and return over the weekend to wrap up details.
But Gettelfinger was having none of it. The UAW president was seen prowling the halls, peering into darkened offices and wondering where the bargaining teams had gone.
con't.........
"Get their a---- back in here and let's finish the deal," he told Laymon.
The teams returned within the hour and resumed bargaining. Even Mulally sat in on the last stages of discussions on the VEBA. At 3:20 a.m. on Nov. 3, Gettelfinger announced that Ford and the union had reached agreement.
From the outside looking in, industry experts are still marveling at what took place at the bargaining table -- and what it will mean for the Big Three and the UAW. "This agreement is the real turning point," said veteran auto analyst John Casesa. "This contract is an enabler, and without it nothing else matters."
-Rocky
P.S. I apologize for my contribution for getting us side tracked. I hope these latest string of very interesting "on-topic" posts helps get us back on track.
I find that an interesting situation. The government creates a welfare health plan, then cuts the benefits when it costs them money. Now the Democrats want to cut the benefits even more out to 42 months. Why not just quit covering people at all? They are on average only going to live 60 months with that condition. Now that the UAW is strapped with the cost of health care for many of those cases the Democrats turn their back on the Union. hmmmmm
Thanks for all the updates Rocky
It has been said for years that the Japanese have a cost advantage over us because Hon/Toy/Nis do not pay for health benefits, as it is paid by the Japanese gov't, so health care is, literally, "off the books"
My greatest fear was that this may have been used to push the USA into socialized medicine which scares the daylights out of me ("If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free")...
Now, it seems that we have a free market solution (this is either where I completely understand it, or completely miss the boat)...funds that the Big 3 WOULD have used for health care funding has been transferred to the control of the UAW, who will manage it for their members...if costs rise to more than the allotted yearly amount, then it will be the union who tells its members that they either have to cut benefits or raise costs (deductibles, copays, and non-covered items and procedures), which the members will have to accept, as opposed to striking because GM says they can't pay for it...
If the union earns a healthy return on the money, they will have $$$ to pay for more benefits, but if they mismanage the money, then, potentially, the entire health care fund could evaporate and there would be NO health care coverage at all, and the members can only scream at their union rather than the Big 3...
Am I right???...was this the simple free market solution staring us in the face all the time???
Can this concept be carried over into other industries, where the major (and minor) companies simply turn over health care to some fiduciary employee organization, let them manage it for their members, and the companies can simply wash their hands of any cost increases in the future???...Shouldn't all companies move to this model, so if the plans fail the employees can only blame themselves???
This almost sounds too good to be true...
What am I missing in my logic???
Euphonium: yes, never forget that the entitlement attitude permeates every cell of the being of our friend...but I still wish him the best of luck and hard work in finding the job where he will grow to his highest potential...:):):)
I suspect that the joker in the deck is the possibility of the union blowing through the money. That'll put national health care right back on the map.
I don't consider that as big a disaster as you do but the devil being in the details, yeah I'd be wary.
It has been said for years that the Japanese have a cost advantage over us because Hon/Toy/Nis do not pay for health benefits, as it is paid by the Japanese gov't, so health care is, literally, "off the books"
My greatest fear was that this may have been used to push the USA into socialized medicine which scares the daylights out of me ("If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free")...
Now, it seems that we have a free market solution (this is either where I completely understand it, or completely miss the boat)...funds that the Big 3 WOULD have used for health care funding has been transferred to the control of the UAW, who will manage it for their members...if costs rise to more than the allotted yearly amount, then it will be the union who tells its members that they either have to cut benefits or raise costs (deductibles, copays, and non-covered items and procedures), which the members will have to accept, as opposed to striking because GM says they can't pay for it...
If the union earns a healthy return on the money, they will have $$$ to pay for more benefits, but if they mismanage the money, then, potentially, the entire health care fund could evaporate and there would be NO health care coverage at all, and the members can only scream at their union rather than the Big 3...
Am I right???...was this the simple free market solution staring us in the face all the time???
Can this concept be carried over into other industries, where the major (and minor) companies simply turn over health care to some fiduciary employee organization, let them manage it for their members, and the companies can simply wash their hands of any cost increases in the future???...Shouldn't all companies move to this model, so if the plans fail the employees can only blame themselves???
This almost sounds too good to be true...
That is more less the case marsha7.
Euphonium: yes, never forget that the entitlement attitude permeates every cell of the being of our friend...
I did not respond out of respect to that personal attack at me keeping this forum on-topic. Every person I've ever met has some form of entitlement and the word "grunt" is a loosely used military word used to describe the soldiers in the field who are performing the task that the Generals (management) planned.
but I still wish him the best of luck and hard work in finding the job where he will grow to his highest potential...
Appreciate that !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
That was in October of 1979. All of us hired at the same time I was were entered in to a 6-month training program working on 767 drawings(that's why we were hired, the new 767 program was just starting to ramp up)but many of us were sent to 747/767 P.I. and we worked on both airplane programs. I didn't know anything about Boeing jet aircraft drawings at that hire-in time.
Now, that was in late 1979. Maybe Boeing requires 4-year college degrees and military experience of some kind to get hired on. But don't worry about being able to speak the lingo right now. If wrench turning is all you feel comfortable trying to get hired in for right now and you can't think of any other skill you have Boeing might want, maybe bagging the Boeing idea is what you should do.
Unfortunately, the Californians and Realtors have amped up real estate pricing in the Puget Sound Region so badly, too, that entry level apartments will cost you dearly to get in to. Road rage is a way of life in the Seattle area, too. There are some definite downsides to going to work for Boeing Airplane Company, but, though I gripe about their irritating layoff habits, it was a good place to work. Good pay and great benefits and you could find all the challenge you wanted for your brain. It occasionally could get very stressful to meet drawing deadlines. We would need to brew lots of strong Starbuck's coffee up and dig in for the daily stress grind. It's a satisfying job in the end.
rockford...it is strongly union-held, too. That's why I can't help but thinking you might be happy there. Sometimes Boeing holds job fairs in the Seattle-Everett area that would enable you to talk to Boeing recruiters at length and get signed up for testing, etc. Hiring is going on in a large manner right now, AFAIK.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That pot will be mishandled.
Socialized medicine a la HillaryCare will not be the answer. Look at the CHIPS now SCHIPS program's attitude of including adults and including incomes up near $80K. I recall when the Clintons wanted a tax cut for the low income but then defined that as $20K and below leaving middle class taxpayers without the taxcut for which they voted for Billary thinking they would get. Oh well, was the attitude. Wait till you see nationalized health care more than it already exists.
As for "our friend" I'm not sure I read that he feels he deserves everything without working which you called "entitlement." Are you meaning that being prounion is wrong and calling that entitlement?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why wait? Just look as the mess with our government run VA hospitals dems were crying about a few months back, they can't even manage a few hospitals, now imagine them taking over all of healthcare!! God help us!!!
I personally have a Canadian from from London Ontario who'd be dead right now if not for him traveling to Detroit for treatment. No matter what the dems call it, it'll be socialized medicine plain and simple
Looks like the Dems are playing a shell game. Take money from the dialysis patients and give it to the wealthy via the SCHIPS program. Just a vote getting program, is all it amounts to.
I think if the UAW develops a good board of directors to administer the health care, it will work. Like was pointed out, the Union will then have to police those that abuse the plan. That was what happened in our Union Health Care program.
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/7915536.html
The UAW/Ford contract will be formalized this afternoon.(link)
Meanwhile GM laid off 200 workers in Flint. (link)
-Rocky
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
iluv, I was hired last week wednesday by a "unionized" insurance company that has a primary market in union supplement plans.I will be meeting with UAW members, Teamster's, IUE-CWA, etc, etc.... I really liked this company and my would be boss seems really cool so they were the first to offer me a job and I took it. The first job I interviewed for in my life where I bragging about being very pro-union actually was a benefit !!!
and rockylee is so fully-informed with the GM product line. Selling any of the GM lineup should serve him very, very well.
I really appreciate that iluv, and yes they all made a huge mistake not hiring me. :confuse: I am still shocked I'm not selling cars. :surprise:
Well now you are updated !!!!
Thanks for asking pal.........
-Rocky
-Rocky
I remember being so stoked when I found out that I had passed my exam...all of that hard work and countless hours studying. It is awesome when the fruits of your labors are realized. I was so happy I could yell it out from the tops of the buildings downtown!
Good deal, yep, they did miss the mark when they skipped hiring you. Hang in there and let us know. I think you'll do great!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick