The UAW workers at Springfield International plant have apparently voted to accept an agreement. Word is that initially because orders were switched to other plants (?) there won't be enough work to bring all back at first to work. However, International has bought some GM truck lines and will begin building those at the International Springfield plant.
I forgot to mention...I fully realize that change can often be very painful and emotionally draining, often taxing the support of a family to the bitter end...
I wish I knew where this took place, but when there was a round of military base closings in the 90s (even tho it was under Clinton, we did not need "navy" bases in the middle of Nebraska) every city/town that depended on the military said they would go under w/o the base...this was simply fear speaking, because a number of those towns suddenly realized that they could use the wide open space of the closed base for business parks and other commercial uses that not only brought other payroll, but paid taxes on the land that was tax free when the feds ran it...it is the same principle...we are all afraid of change, some more than others...but change will occur...
Wasn't Pittsburgh a city that depended on the steelmakers, but haven't they transformed the city into a high-tech mecca with other industries much cleaner and less polluting than the steel companies???...aren't they better off now than when they had US Steel polluting the rivers and lakes...isn't P'burgh an example of what change can render when you approach it with an open mind and a willingness to accept what is inevitable anyway???
If you live in the Philadelphia, PA area, this would be a very bad example. The Philadelphia Naval Shipyard closed in 1993-4 and with it went many reasonably good-paying jobs. The city paid a very large sum of money to a German company to come in (Kvaerner, I believe). They abandoned the site several years later and I would be surprised if they hired even 1/10th of the employees that the Naval shipyard employed. I don't even know what goes on there now. I remember an odd report of an office shooting there a couple of years ago. The decision to close the navy base WAS a financial disaster for Philadelphia. It would be very hard to find cause/effect relationships due to the myriad of things that go on, however, Philadelphia is on a record pace for homicides. What is more interesting is the politics that led to the site closure. It coincided very well with the unfortunate death of the then senator (Heinz). He was a strong advocate to keep the base open and after his death the site closed within 2 years.
I believe another shipbuilder called Aker had taken over where Kvaerner left off. If you really want to see a city taken down by the loss of major employers, go down the river to Chester where both Ford and Sun Ship have closed. That city has been in the toilet for almost 50 years as a result. They're trying to revive the city with, what else...casinos! Feh! Casinos don't produce anything, they're just leaches. If you go off the boardwalk in Atlantic City, you're smack dab in the middle of a ghetto. A lot of good they've done there!
Casinos don't produce anything, they're just leaches.
Not entirely true, although I wouldn't want to live in either Las Vegas or Atlantic City (don't mind to visit there every once a while though) but Casinos do produce a lot of employment opportunities, especially those mega casinos.
I've been through Chester. It has a very vibrant economy. The only problem is that instead of selling cars and ships, the commodities are now crack and prostitution. A classic case of how outsourcing has helped the United States.
Sharon Terlep / The Detroit News General Motors Corp. today announced plans for a targeted buyout program that will offer retirement incentives to 5,200 of its 72,000 hourly workers starting next month, paving the way for more employees to be hired under a two-tier wage system recently negotiated with the United Auto Workers.
The automaker is still working to cut a deal with the UAW on a second phase of buyouts for the automaker's remaining U.S. blue-collar workforce.
Details of the first-phase offers will be rolled out to workers starting early next month, though GM spokesman Dan Flores said today the packages will be similar to incentives offered in 2006 when more than 34,000 hourly workers left the company in exchange for packages ranging in value from $35,000 to $140,000.
Employees will have 45 days to weigh the offers and another seven days to change their minds if they accept an offer. The first workers to leave likely will go in March.
The first phase of the buyouts will be extended to workers at GM's 23 U.S. service parts and operations centers, three jobs banks for laid-off workers and at factories in Pittsburgh and Messina, N.Y. The Messina castings plant is slated to close, while GM is looking to sell the Pittsburgh stamping plant.
GM is working urgently to trim its workforce amid worries that U.S. auto sales will continue to slow next year.
"This first phase of a comprehensive attrition program provides our employees with attractive options to consider," GM CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement. "We continue to work closely with our UAW partners to improve our competitiveness in the currently challenging U.S. market conditions."
GM needs to clear out veteran workers to make way for new employees that will largely be hired at a second-tier wage level for about half the current average pay. New workers who have jobs considered non-core to building an automobile would start at about $14 an hour and have different benefits packages.
GM is targeting the service parts centers because virtually all new hires there would fall into the lower wage.
The jobs banks workers are from shuttered facilities in Oklahoma City, Linden, N.J. and Rancho Cucamonga, Calif. and include about 900 workers.
If those workers decline the buyout, they will be placed on layoffs and given two job offers at other plants somewhere in the United States. Workers who accept none of the offers will be placed on leave with no pay or benefits, Flores said.
The 2006 buyouts divided workers into three categories and made the following offers:
• Those with 30 or more years of service received a $35,000 incentive to retire with full pension and other benefits.
• Those with between 27 and 30 years on the job will be given credits to bridge the gap to retirement, but no special payout.
• Those with lower seniority will be offered more than $100,000 in a lump sum payment to leave the company with only the pension benefits they have accrued.
As many as 56,000 of GM's nearly 75,000 blue-collar workers could retire by 2011. Many of their replacements would fall into the lower wage tier. Under the recently negotiated national contract between GM and the UAW, about 16,000 jobs would be considered non-core.
A new worker hired into a lower-tier job will cost GM $25.65 in combined wages and benefits -- less than one-third of the $78.31 the automaker currently spends. Workers will have the opportunity to move into the higher paying jobs as they become available.
Flores said GM and the UAW are still negotiating details of the buyout offers to the remaining workers, as well how to define which jobs are considered non-core. Those issues must be signed off on in contracts being negotiated with dozens of GM plant-level union locals.
"We are operating in a very competitive environment and a focus on cutting costs will continue to be a priority for General Motors," he said.
30-second TV spots feature union members talking about support of charitable causes, higher standards.
Eric Morath / The Detroit News A new UAW television advertising campaign aims to reshape the union's image from the organizers of industrial labor to a diverse organization that promotes workplace safety, fair trade and community involvement.
The ads, which began airing in Metro Detroit and four other markets this week, direct the public and UAW members to a Web site, IamtheUAW.org, where they are invited to share their own stories, post photos and YouTube videos. The first stories posted are those of members featured in the TV ads.
The 30-second spots feature tightly cropped shots of UAW members talking about the union's support of charitable causes and for higher global workplace standards.
One ad opens with Yolanda Crosby, a UAW-represented nurse, saying she is deeply concerned about the safety of toys imported from China. She says: "It's not just about product safety, but workplace safety. The workers who are making the unsafe products are working in unsafe environments."
The ads -- part of the first ever interactive marketing campaign from the UAW -- strive to change stereotypes about the union, said Daphne Rice, a worker at Ford Motor Co.'s Rawsonville plant and the subject of one of the commercials.
"My motto is we are more than autoworkers we want to send out a different message," she said.
"We have people in the UAW who are out there assisting their communities and making a difference."
Rice's ad talks about how UAW members contribute to many community activities. She noted that she is involved several outreach programs, including the Women Safe House Project.
Rice said she's an example of UAW workers who are more-than-meets-the-eye. She's the reining Ms. Galaxy after winning a national beauty pageant held in Orlando, Fla. She said musicians, artists and computer experts go to work with her every day at the plant.
The "I am the UAW" campaign is the union's first general awareness campaign in about 15 years. In addition to Detroit, the ads will air in Indianapolis, Jackson, Miss., Louisville, Ky., and Nashville, Tenn. The UAW would not disclose the cost of the ads.
The campaign aims to recast the UAW in a better light, following a year of difficult contract negotiations with Detroit's Big Three, which included two short strikes, said Laurie Harbour-Felax, an automotive consultant and managing director at Stout Risius Ross Inc.
"They want the public to start thinking of them as someone who can participate growing economy, rather than being a barrier to entry," said Harbour-Felax, referring to the notion that Toyota, Honda and others have been reluctant to build manufacturing plants in Michigan, in part because of the state's strong history of organized labor.
"These ads can show workers at Toyota, who have voted against joining the UAW, that (the union) benefits both workers and their communities."
Andrew Linko, a Ford electrician from Brownstown Township, said he hopes the ads will show more people that the UAW is a part of their lives, whether or not they're a member. He is featured in ad in which he talks about the union's efforts to improve worldwide workplace safety, as he paints furniture.
"We're bringing this down to the grass roots to show that we're not just big labor, not some third party, but we're your next-door neighbor or the person you play bingo with," he said.
UAW leaders said the ads aren't intended to recruit more members but rather to raise awareness of the activities and positions of the union.
The Web site which complements the advertising campaign features audio, photo and video-sharing technology. Participants can tell stories about why they became members or what their locals are doing to make a difference in the community.
"Communication today is a two-way street," said UAW President Ron Gettelfinger. "With an interactive Web site, we can help our members share real stories about who we are and what we have accomplished-with each other, with friends and neighbors and with the broader public."
that the UAW may have done, I truly believe that in the current day and age, the negatives outweigh the positives easily 10 to 1...while they refer to themselves as partners, their restrictive work rules and job classifications is probably what has stifled the Big 3...I believe that the imports can assign you anywhere they want, which, in any rational minded person, makes sense...you want the most versatile employees you can get, rather than someone who can/will only install right rear wheels on a wheel hub...despite what the union believes, it is also in the worker's best interest to be cross-trained in every possible function of the plant, to relieve the monotony and boredom of a single job, and for the worker to develop to their fullest potential...
Restrictive work rules not only stifle the employer, they stifle the employee...maybe they now need better educated workers on the lines, simply because of the increased training...but who can be against more training or a better quality worker...
Do the imports "brainwash" the worker???...if I was a union member, I would answer yes, but it is the union member, IMO, who was originally brainwashed with an entitlement attitude that has only harmed the union and its worker reputation, i.e. simply the phrase "union worker" has about the same negatives as "Hillary Clinton"...
The imports train their workers that a better product is better for everybody, kinda like the W. Edwards Deming method of building it right from the beginning and only good will come from it (lower cost to make, less cost to warranty, happier customer and repeat buyers)...
Is it brainwashing to teach workers that everyone should work together for the good of the company???...no, not if they want to keep their jobs...you can either teach workers to be part of the team or antagonistic to the team...imports train you to be part of the team while the UAW has always been the antagonist...I question whether the union has figured this out yet, as the Big 3 will shed more and more workers while the imports seem to be stable or growing...
In the Timber and Papermaking Industry around the Pacific Northwest, what you say is true as well. The longshore union is in the same mindset of "union mentality" too.
Yes, it's true that the UAW/CAW's of this world do good in terms of contributions to humanitarian causes in the community at large. However, I sometimes wonder if there is more "positive public imaging" than genuine humanitarian motives behind these contributions. I also submit there's some truth to what Marsha7 says about non productive work practices stifling employers' ability be more competitive. Having spent a number of years as a shop floor guy in a UAW/CAW environment, I can attest to a good many work rules which don't make much sense, and certainly don't add any value to processes, nor do they really benefit workers. I can quote any number of examples, but it would serve little purpose here. I'm sure if you are honest with yourself you've seen some of what Marsha7 talks about. It is systemic in too many work places, and a real problem which will have be reckoned with sometime soon. Suffice to say, there always has been resistance by unions to change or modify such work practices whether they make no sense or otherwise, primarily because it's generally not politically advantagious for elected union officials to support such change. Rank and file resistance is probably even stronger, for obvious reasons. The harsh reality is---if resistance to change continues re work practices serving only to add cost and inefficiencies to the process, unions are doing more harm than good to their members.
I was unaware of the paper and timber industries, but I completely forgot about the strong-arm tactics of the longshoremen, esp on the West (Left) Coast...
My holiday will be joyous, as rocky has decided to give me a break until, I assume, the New Year, or at least until after Xmas...:):):)
rocky: has the new job started yet, or does it start after jan 1, 2008???
The bad you talk about is almost 2 decades worth of old news. Did some of what has been said on here happen to my knowledge ? Yes !!!! The 90's the UAW, started to change in big ways and the UAW, has been stomped on and kicked pretty damn hard because globalization and our free market has virtually eliminated any strength they and the working man once had. :sick:
Marsha7, I started my new job last week pal. I'm on week 2 and still in training status thus I'm not getting paid. I probably won't start making a pay check until after the first of the year but I did receive a lot of training and got to rub elbows with some big wigs today in Troy, MI.
the UAW, has been stomped on and kicked pretty damn hard because globalization and our free market has virtually eliminated any strength they and the working man once had.
Kinda of a which came first the chicken or the egg. Do you think the UAW should accept any of the responsibility for jobs going overseas and to Mexico? I think some of the lack of flexibility pushed the Big 3 to build factories in less hostile locations. I know in 98 when the UAW struck against GM our Local Teamsters president thought they were making a BIG strategic mistake.
Well we can play he said she said all we want but the bottom line is the Teamster's had the priveledge of gaining large sums of cash back in the day when Hoffa Sr. was king of the hill of all unionsand a player in the mob. The Teamsters to the best of my knowledge still is the largest union in the U.S. today and perhaps might always will be. They have bargaining contracts with lots of large corporations. The Teamster's is a union I've always had a great deal of respect for because they played hard ball and forced their memberships employers in a corner when they got greedy. The UAW, is merely a pimple in size compared to the Teamster's and it's (UAW) focus was on the automobile industry and area thats been hit harder by the free market than perhaps any other large sector of our economy. Duncan Hunter, Ross Perot, John Edwards, Dennis Kucinich, Lou Dobbs, Michael Savage, and many others etc have acknowledged over the years about unfair trade and it's justa cold hard fact of the U.S. business enviroment.
So yeah we can just blame the UAW, and throw stones at them but because of our unfair trade & free markets with 3rd world labor, and throw in the currency manipulation issues it has severely damaged a once successful part of our economy for both company and employee. I'm not saying the japanese didn't make better american products but it is all out of whack and has crossed the line. :sick:
The UAW, has given the automobile manufactors lots of flexibility but going from doing one job a day to doing three+depending on job at some locations and them wanting the employees to stick a broom up their butt to sweep as they are working was never enough even though some of these factory's net income like my father Coopersville, Plant was making $140+ million a year. :sick:
The "bad" you referenced has indeed changed but in reality, not nearly as much as we are led to believe by warm and fuzzy media statements from both employers and unions. There's still a long way to go in terms of antiquated and obsolete work practices, plus the culture of "entitlement" is still a force to be reckoned with in attempts to effect change. Our present home base is in the alleged "Automobile Capital of Canada"--all of the former big three have operations here or near here. This community is, and has been for decades, well known as a "Union Town". Most of the folks one meets or deals with daily are union members or family/relatives/friends of same. As I said earlier, much of my career was, and still is, shop floor related. Make no mistake, the prevailing culture in auto plants these days is still very much "past practice" oriented. Those "bads" as you put it, haven't gone away by any means. Some things are being done differently, but from what I see, the changes made so far seem more cosmetic than practical. However, recent shocks of plant closures and dramatic staff cutbacks are beginning to sink in. Some are getting the message, altho' I fear it may be too little-too late to recover. Blaming trade practices, currency manipulation, or whatever external influences you choose, isn't entirely to blame, nor is isolationism in these issues the answer to the problem. North America, whether we like it or not, is just another player in a world economy--and we're no longer calling all the shots.
The UAW, has given the automobile manufactors lots of flexibility but going from doing one job a day to doing three+depending on job at some locations and them wanting the employees to stick a broom up their butt to sweep as they are working was never enough
You are making my point for me. So what if management wants a line person to sweep the floor or mop up the lavatory. It is much more cost efficient at times to have one employee doing more than one job. Myself and fellow employees shared the duties of cleaning our office and lavatory since day one. It was that or have a dirty place to work. Management did not care they were 700 air miles south in Anchorage. The contract signed just after I retired is even more loose. The technicians have to change the oil in the trucks and do minor repairs to the buildings. They did not even get a raise out of it. So they lost a position of facilities mechanic. It was that or take the risk of losing even more. These are tough times as you know. There are no guarantees in the Constitution about labor being treated fairly. It is so much more competitive now. You fit in or fall out.
If my boss wanted me to sweep the floor for $100k per year. I did it with a smile
Thankfully our local 959 Alaska Teamsters are autonomous from the International. We have our own very well funded retirement. In my 37 years in that Union we had very little to do with the rest of the Teamsters outside Alaska. So we did not get affected by all the corruption. Though we had a bit of our own from time to time.
The best thing for the UAW and the Big 3 is to give early retirement packages to all the older employees that are stuck in their world of entitlements. They may be great at what they do. If they will not make changes they are a detriment to the UAW and the company.
So in other words we are going to become slaves because nobody is pushing back....My god gagrice, people use to be able to work 40 hours a week and raise a family and because we propped up China, and these other 3rd world country's who will work like slaves for bread crumbs the working class in this country are suppose to keep quiet and go along with the super-capitalist plansof a one world government.
Well I for one will never conform to that way of thinking. The jerks in Washington, started this economic war and they can finish it or otherwise people like me will vote for full blown socialism to counter the greedy elites !!!!! :mad:
Be careful what you look for for Rocky--you might get more than expected, and much of it not to your liking! Yes, economically undeveloped countries in the world are gaining on us, and one can understand your concerns. Ultimately that will affect all of us in North America in the long run. Our current status as an economic powerhouse isn't going to last forever--and the easy affluence we've enjoyed for generations is envied by others now in position to do something about it. To a degree, all of us share the blame for that envy! (Remember I said some time ago "More isn't always better"!!) However, your message about 'slavery' and 'one world government' is just a little over the top though! Wrong message, indeed!! Coping with world wide economic changes in the future will be a challenge, but not an impossible challenge. Most definitely, socialism, isolationism, or any such knee jerk solutions make about as little sense as nuking any economic competitors. Perhaps the UAW should be thinking more about helping the situation, instead of the 'More' philosophy---or instead of always looking to the Govt. to bail them out of their (somewhat self inflicted) predicament?
otherwise people like me will vote for full blown socialism to counter the greedy elites !!!!!
Do you think that people in countries like Russia that were socialist, were not enslaved a lot worse than US? Who do you think the greedy elites are? It is the elitist in the Democratic party that want to enslave you. Give us all your money and we will take care of you. Ask someone that lived in Romania, Bulgaria or East Germany under Socialism what they think of your idea. Your idea of US becoming like Norway is not realistic. Because of our size and diversity we would end up more like Communist Russia. Until working conditions get like they were 100 years ago you will not see a labor revolution. The country as a whole is too wealthy and complacent. It amazes me how young couples today have a big screen TV in the living room and a TV in the bedroom. When I first went to work in 1961 I saved for a year to afford a little B&W TV. I drove used cars until I saved enough for a down payment new car in 1964. You and your generation have it way too easy. The biggest difference in the wealthy classes. Most of the Rich back then were old money, like the Kennedys, Rockefellers, Duponts and Fords. Today we have far more wealthy people just like you and me. They worked hard and built a small business. Now they are fighting to keep the government from taking it all away and giving it to the do nothing class.
people use to be able to work 40 hours a week and raise a family and because we propped up China
We started to give that up when we bought the first TV and portable radio from Japan in the 1950s. When do you think it became difficult for a single income to support the average family? Just because Michigan was isolated for a lot of years from the realities of the working family, does not mean it was not happening in this country. In California by the 1960s moms were forced to get a job to keep the family fed and housed. You have a very narrow view of the working class in this country. If you have anything in your home made in China you are as much to blame as anyone else. My wife spent a lot more on presents for the grandkids, nieces and nephews so that everything she bought was "Made in the USA". If you want to actually support your fellow American workers this is the place to start. If you go to any mainstream store, all you will find is the crap made in China. Be prepared to pay at least twice as much for toys made here in America.
That will be your average american because unions will cease to exist because the greedy pseudo-capitalist are gripping the reins in Washington, D.C. :sick:
Well gagrice, each generation was suppose to have it better than the last one. That was the way it has always worked. Now instead of going forward we have taken a wrong turn sometime in 2000' I think in early November and it's been down hill ever since.
Rocky, Do you think those "pseudo capitalists" you love to hate are any better or worse than the "elite USSR and Est German Socialists" who lived in luxury while the rest of the country was barely surviving? Why do you think socialism eventually collapsed there, and even China has moved to a free market society? Socialism is just another form of capitalism--it's State Controlled Capitalism. The only difference is that in our society you get to keep a little more for yourself. Wanting to be thy brother's keeper only works if your brother doesn't seek "more"!
Now instead of going forward we have taken a wrong turn sometime in 2000' I think in early November and it's been down hill ever since.
I like the pics.
Have you bought your children any toys from China? Is your computer built in China? Where was the TV you watch Lou Dobbs on built? If any of those were built outside the USA, shame on you.
My 1988, 1990 & 1993 GM 3/4 PUs were built in Canada. My 1998 Suburban was built in Monterey Mexico. My 2005 GMC PU was built in Indiana. The 2007 Sequoia I just bought was built in Indiana. So this BS about losing auto jobs since 2000 has no TRUTH to it. The overall economy is better than it was in 1999. The GDP is much higher. Employment is higher. The gigantic CEO salaries have not gone up as much as they did in the 1990s. So you really need to look at the whole country not just Grand Rapids. Maybe the greed in Michigan pushed the automakers up to Canada and down to Indiana and Mexico. I think if you look at auto manufacturing as a whole. More vehicles were built in the USA in 2007 than in 2000. You are just mad because they were not all built in Michigan. The wealth has been distributed across the USA.
By the way. My step father worked two jobs all through the 1950s and 60s so my mom would not have to work. And he was in the Carpenters Union. So that 40 hour single income support must have only been in your part of the USA. I don't know anyone in management that works less than 50 hours per week. Most work closer to 70 hours.
Wanting to be thy brother's keeper only works if your brother doesn't seek "more"!
A great example of that is going on in New Orleans right now. Those that are displaced want to be returned to their old way of life. It is not going to happen. Sadly it was a chance to get out of that situation. Many took advantage and have settled elsewhere.
Socialism is just another form of capitalism--it's State Controlled Capitalism.
I think you are right. Look at Putin. It is rumored that he is the head of a $40 billion empire. With much of it stashed in foreign banks. With all its problems, I will still take the USA over any other country. I don't want no stinking King. Unless its ME :shades:
"A great example of that is going on in New Orleans right now"
The situation there is still pretty rough, I'm sad to say, and it's not improving very quickly. Last Feb. a group of us went there to help rebuild some homes, and we're going back again next Feb. We Canucks aren't all bad y'know!! I couldn't believe the devastation, and how much recovery effort is still desperately needed. We are too soon distracted by our own self serving interests I'm afraid. For sure, many folks there won't be back to any semblance of normal for several more years, and even then, long term security from more flooding is dicey! It's easy for us to say "move", but there isn't that alternative for some. Now if the UAW wanted to really get some worthy PR and exert pressure on the Govt., helping that situation would be one good way. What do you say Rocky??
Have you bought your children any toys from China?
Nope !!! Not recently.......
Is your computer built in China?
It's a Gateway, and I'm not sure of where it was made as it's not mine. Iknow they are manufactoring their computers as of this year back in the U.S. cuz I saw a article in the paper about it. I know they pride themselves on having their customer support system 100% american so to the best of my knowledge they are currently the most american computer company.
Where was the TV you watch Lou Dobbs on built?
It's a Panasonic 58' Plasma and was manufactored in Mexico.
If any of those were built outside the USA, shame on you.
Okay start naming me TV's, computers, builthere in the U.S. of A gagrice ???? Come-on start naming !!!!! Oh you can't ? That's what I thought. Because of the republican party and your hero Ronald Reagan, and his Reaganomics, big business got tax breaks for off-shoring. The cycle continues to this day. Clinton, is to blame also because he could of faught NAFTA, but back in those days the fools including some democrats believed we were going to in return get high paying jobs. I was and always have been against NAFTA, and believed Ross Perot, was going to be right. Hell the unions were against it from the get go !!!! I held up Say No To NAFTA signs and wore a like shirts with the same slogan. :mad:
My 1988, 1990 & 1993 GM 3/4 PUs were built in Canada. My 1998 Suburban was built in Monterey Mexico. My 2005 GMC PU was built in Indiana. The 2007 Sequoia I just bought was built in Indiana. So this BS about losing auto jobs since 2000 has no TRUTH to it.
What ???? So you are one who believes the transplants have filled in the gaps and replaced all the lost auto jobs ???? :surprise: Gagrice, my friend that is incorrect. I have for the last couple of years have posted links showing quite the opposite. We have lost hundreds of thousands of auto jobs since the 1980's. The ones that are being replaced make a fraction compared to what my family made. Hyundai, pays $13-14 bucks an hours ??? Dad, was knocking down $29 an hour a year and a half ago.
The overall economy is better than it was in 1999.
That is absurd !!!! :confuse:
The GDP is much higher.
As most economist I've listen to say you can't judge an economy soley on GDP. I guess Rush, likes to spout that number ???
Employment is higher.
I guess that depends on who you ask. Alot of people who lost their jobs aren't elgible for unemployment benefits because A. They ran out of them. B. They lost their new job got on unemployment again but were only limited amount of weeks. I know people in that situation who have been let go more than twice in their field do to downsizing or plant closings. The jobs being replaced are low wage jobs and that goes for college educated folks. Sure you can site a few like your family that have moved to Austin, Dallas, and got a good job but overall we are worse off in "real wages" than any time since the depression. Even our foreign TV picking up Lou Dobbs, can broadcast that !!! :P
The gigantic CEO salaries have not gone up as much as they did in the 1990s.
Where do you come up with this stuff ??? Rush, mus tof O.D-ed on the oxycotin, when you were listening to him to come up with such absurd claims. I guess those oil suits never cashed those $500 million dollars worth of retirement checks. :surprise: Dobbs, would dispute your claim. He spoke a few months ago on that subject and said the wage gap from CEO to Worker keeps widening. :sick:
So you really need to look at the whole country not just Grand Rapids.
I have and outside of a few places in Arizona, Wyoming, Alaska, the rest of the country has been hit hard. If it wasn't for the senior citizens that have money which most do this country would be in a world of hurt. My generation is likely to not beable to retire because of the mess the greedy in your generation have caused.
Maybe the greed in Michigan pushed the automakers up to Canada and down to Indiana and Mexico.
How can you whom made $38 bucks an hour at your union job can hammer your union brothers and sisters will always puzzle me. The CAW, is not much different from the UAW. The major difference is they have national healthcare thus medical is cheaper. The Mexicans, will work for a couple bucks an hour like slaves and push junk out the doors. What has been built in Indiana, recently ? Oh that Honda, plant ??? Well they can get hair lipped hillbilly's in the very rural area's to believe the company propaganda for meager wages. If they don't like em' anymore well tap em'on the shoulder and tell them to leave. The employee has no recourse like you and I had. However it seems to me you made it big and you have forgotten where you came from and how you made that good money. I have a great uncle who thinks alot like you. A tool & die worker. Great guy but like I always told him you should of promoted because he was a wanna be. Gagrice, I wasn't always the most respectful child and teenager in the world. I sometimes was pretty blunt but I get that from my grandmother. So sure those non-union shops can hire the less educated with no back bone. I guess those are the "Great Jobs" you are bragging about earlier ????
I think if you look at auto manufacturing as a whole. More vehicles were built in the USA in 2007 than in 2000.
I'm not sure if I buy that or not. I don't have the data to be certain. I know a lot of vehicles are containing far less domestic content today than in 2000. :sick: Just because a Hyundai/Kia is slapped togeather here doesn't make it American. It only contains 3-5% domestic content.
You are just mad because they were not all built in Michigan. The wealth has been distributed across the USA.
Actually which individual state never entered my mind. But yeah, naturally I'd like at least some of it built here in Michigan, because for god sakes the automobile industry was founded in my state. If I was a multi-billionaire I would literally change the U.S. especially this state.
By the way. My step father worked two jobs all through the 1950s and 60s so my mom would not have to work. And he was in the Carpenters Union. So that 40 hour single income support must have only been in your part of the USA.
I doubt Michigan, was the only state where the mans wages could support a family. Which state did your Pa, work in as a carpenter ??? California ??? I know my grandparents worked for General Electric. My grandmother didn't work until the kids got older and the only reason she wanted to work so she could have very nice things thus she went to college and eventually became a union rep.
I don't know anyone in management that works less than 50 hours per week.
I sure do !!!! I know lots of management folks who only work 40 hours week and got every weekend off to boot and these folks are not just in Michigan.
Most work closer to 70 hours.
Hey we agree on something as that is true !!!! I believe the number is closer to 60 unless you are like Wagoner, who has to put in the long hours.
Rocky, Do you think those "pseudo capitalists" you love to hate are any better or worse than the "elite USSR and Est German Socialists" who lived in luxury while the rest of the country was barely surviving?
Those are communist country's not socialist. I know the right-wing likes to compare the two but actually capitalism is closer in relationship to communism than Socialism. :confuse:
Shoot, I remember us living well on just my Dad working in the early 1970s. By the late 1970s, Mom had joined the workforce and it seemed we had less despite it.
Do I have it better off than my Mom and Dad? Well, I have a much nicer car, but I'm not married nor do I have any children. I guess it's a wash. I should've been able to have a family and all that if the American dream was still a reality for the average middle class person. Guess it wasn't meant to be. I'm just happy to hang onto that which I still have as a genetic dead end.
The UAW, has donated to Katrina victims. Really what do you want them to do ???
Bush, just through billions at it and hoped the problem would go away. It didn't help that they had a hand appointed incompetent guy running FEMA. I guess 9/11 didn't teach Bush, anything but that is why some believe in the 9/11 conspiracy because any person with a half a brain would of put somebody who had practical experience in that position after 9/11. :confuse:
Shoot, if there still were any U.S. manufacturers of televisions I would buy from them. Geeze, even the Japanese brand televisions are now made in god-forsaken third-world toilets.
U.S. made toys? Well, I think Slinkies are still made in western PA. Louis Marx & Co. was once the biggest toy manufacturer in the world and they were based in West Virginia. Shoot, Marx made a lot of cool toys back in the day. Google Marx Toy Company some time and check it out.
But some how poor gagrices, father had to work two jobs. :confuse: Well depending on the type of work he did most carpenters only worked 8 or 9 months out of the year depending on climate and of course how busy the union was with work.
Yep, pal you are right. Gagrice, is hatin' on me and their isn't anything I could do as their is no alternative but to not own a TV or computer. :sick:
All I can say is you and Lemko live in a different world than I am in, here in So California. Other than the slowdown in housing it is still booming. The South is booming. Latest figures I read, 94% of home buyers are still making their home mortgage payments on time. The fact that a lot of people bought homes way above their means is not an indictment on the economy. Along with the GDP over double what was expected, production in the USA is way up. Spending over this Christmas season is the highest in 3 and a half years.
The only people to blame for manufacturing going overseas is the American buying public. When we started getting TVs from Japan there were still several companies building them here. The bottom line is they were cheaper and we bought into it. It started long before Reagan became President. VW was selling cars here in the late 1950s. Toyota and Datsun was here by 1962.
You seem to think that people in the auto plants in the South are under paid. I don't think so. If they were not making a living they would have gone elsewhere or signed UAW cards.
You worry about content of automobiles. The Toyota Camry has more domestic content than any Big 3 car. The only vehicles with higher domestic content is the Ford F series PU and the Silverado PU.
Cars.com's American Made Index rates vehicles put together and purchased in the U.S. Factors include where the cars' parts are made, where the cars are assembled and how many are sold in the U.S.. Eligible models must have a domestic-parts-content rating of 75 percent or more, the minimum federal standard for a car to be labeled domestic.
"The UAW, has given the automobile manufactors lots of flexibility but going from doing one job a day to doing three+"
Your unionized entitlement-oriented whining attitude is showing, along with your apparent lack of understanding of business...your statement alone reveals that you mistakenly think business exists to create jobs, rather than the true reality, business exists to create profit for the owners or shareholders
Until the UAW commits to TOTAL flexibility, you will lose this war...there is nothing wrong with putting on fenders before lunch, sweeping the mess after luch, and cleaning the bathroom just prior to clocking out...
You really do live in denial...you actually believe that there is something wrong with an employee having six different job functions in a day...go to your local hardware store, where you see people unload trucks, check the delivery against the packing slip, place product on the shelf so idiots like me can find it, escort me to the cash register where they ring up the sale and take my money...
Your mind must be in a bubble, as you MARVEL at the fact that some UAW folks have CONCEDED to perform 3 different jobs in a day...one of their major problems IS the restrictive job classifications that resulted in a half a million employees doing the work that only required half as much in any normal business...
They conceded in order to come into the 20th century and keep what jobs still exist...give 'em til the next contract, and they may come into the 21st century...
rocky, please bring your head out of the sand...what you call reality simply does not exist anymore and died about 15 years ago...only a union mentality can't see what is happening...come back to earth, please...
The Toyota Camry DOES NOT have more domestic content than any big 3 cars. The ones I looked at were in the 70% range and hell their are Buicks, Pontiacs, Lincolns, Cadillacs, Fords, that have more domestic content than the Camry's I looked at Toyota of Grand Rapids, where I did my car sales training and the Camry, was our guneia pig vehicle for are product presentation.
So "cars.com" is hiting the Toyota crack pipe. :mad:
"The UAW, has given the automobile manufactors lots of flexibility but going from doing one job a day to doing three+"
Your unionized entitlement-oriented whining attitude is showing, along with your apparent lack of understanding of business...your statement alone reveals that you mistakenly think business exists to create jobs, rather than the true reality, business exists to create profit for the owners or shareholders
Until the UAW commits to TOTAL flexibility, you will lose this war...there is nothing wrong with putting on fenders before lunch, sweeping the mess after luch, and cleaning the bathroom just prior to clocking out...
You really do live in denial...you actually believe that there is something wrong with an employee having six different job functions in a day...go to your local hardware store, where you see people unload trucks, check the delivery against the packing slip, place product on the shelf so idiots like me can find it, escort me to the cash register where they ring up the sale and take my money...
Your mind must be in a bubble, as you MARVEL at the fact that some UAW folks have CONCEDED to perform 3 different jobs in a day...one of their major problems IS the restrictive job classifications that resulted in a half a million employees doing the work that only required half as much in any normal business...
They conceded in order to come into the 20th century and keep what jobs still exist...give 'em til the next contract, and they may come into the 21st century...
rocky, please bring your head out of the sand...what you call reality simply does not exist anymore and died about 15 years ago...only a union mentality can't see what is happening...come back to earth, please...
Go Ahead Mock Me !!!!!
I just don't want to hear you whine when your kids, grand kids and/or family are slaves to the asians. I also don't want you and your capitalist buddy's to expect me to shed blood for their foolishness. :mad:
Rocky:....We're all saying the same thing. It's time you paid attention!!
So I'm the one who has my head buried in the sand ????
I think not. I see what is going on and understand why this and that has happened and why compromise has had to be made by the UAW, to survive.
However you and some others have ya'lls heads buried deep in the sand on what is going on in the U.S. I do feel sorry for ya'll. It seems like only a few on here understand what I'm talking about and have witnessed it or choose to see it.
The elites, want to expand NAFTA, implement CAFTA, do a like free trade policy with South Korea, and do a American Union where we share a common currency with the Mexicans, and Canadians. Right now we are bank rolling Asia, especially the chinese, and if that isn't enough to scare you then I'm not sure what will ???
I guess you can continue to mock me which is fine but I truely believe in the end I will stand correct. Not to be arrogant I usually am and I honestly don't want to be correct on this issue. I might not see the worst of it in my lifetime but my kids and grand kids sure could. :sick:
Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
I wish I knew where this took place, but when there was a round of military base closings in the 90s (even tho it was under Clinton, we did not need "navy" bases in the middle of Nebraska) every city/town that depended on the military said they would go under w/o the base...this was simply fear speaking, because a number of those towns suddenly realized that they could use the wide open space of the closed base for business parks and other commercial uses that not only brought other payroll, but paid taxes on the land that was tax free when the feds ran it...it is the same principle...we are all afraid of change, some more than others...but change will occur...
Wasn't Pittsburgh a city that depended on the steelmakers, but haven't they transformed the city into a high-tech mecca with other industries much cleaner and less polluting than the steel companies???...aren't they better off now than when they had US Steel polluting the rivers and lakes...isn't P'burgh an example of what change can render when you approach it with an open mind and a willingness to accept what is inevitable anyway???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not entirely true, although I wouldn't want to live in either Las Vegas or Atlantic City (don't mind to visit there every once a while though) but Casinos do produce a lot of employment opportunities, especially those mega casinos.
-Rocky
P.S. Gotta go watch Lou Dobbs
General Motors Corp. today announced plans for a targeted buyout program that will offer retirement incentives to 5,200 of its 72,000 hourly workers starting next month, paving the way for more employees to be hired under a two-tier wage system recently negotiated with the United Auto Workers.
The automaker is still working to cut a deal with the UAW on a second phase of buyouts for the automaker's remaining U.S. blue-collar workforce.
Details of the first-phase offers will be rolled out to workers starting early next month, though GM spokesman Dan Flores said today the packages will be similar to incentives offered in 2006 when more than 34,000 hourly workers left the company in exchange for packages ranging in value from $35,000 to $140,000.
Employees will have 45 days to weigh the offers and another seven days to change their minds if they accept an offer. The first workers to leave likely will go in March.
The first phase of the buyouts will be extended to workers at GM's 23 U.S. service parts and operations centers, three jobs banks for laid-off workers and at factories in Pittsburgh and Messina, N.Y. The Messina castings plant is slated to close, while GM is looking to sell the Pittsburgh stamping plant.
GM is working urgently to trim its workforce amid worries that U.S. auto sales will continue to slow next year.
"This first phase of a comprehensive attrition program provides our employees with attractive options to consider," GM CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement. "We continue to work closely with our UAW partners to improve our competitiveness in the currently challenging U.S. market conditions."
GM needs to clear out veteran workers to make way for new employees that will largely be hired at a second-tier wage level for about half the current average pay. New workers who have jobs considered non-core to building an automobile would start at about $14 an hour and have different benefits packages.
GM is targeting the service parts centers because virtually all new hires there would fall into the lower wage.
The jobs banks workers are from shuttered facilities in Oklahoma City, Linden, N.J. and Rancho Cucamonga, Calif. and include about 900 workers.
If those workers decline the buyout, they will be placed on layoffs and given two job offers at other plants somewhere in the United States. Workers who accept none of the offers will be placed on leave with no pay or benefits, Flores said.
The 2006 buyouts divided workers into three categories and made the following offers:
• Those with 30 or more years of service received a $35,000 incentive to retire with full pension and other benefits.
• Those with between 27 and 30 years on the job will be given credits to bridge the gap to retirement, but no special payout.
• Those with lower seniority will be offered more than $100,000 in a lump sum payment to leave the company with only the pension benefits they have accrued.
As many as 56,000 of GM's nearly 75,000 blue-collar workers could retire by 2011. Many of their replacements would fall into the lower wage tier. Under the recently negotiated national contract between GM and the UAW, about 16,000 jobs would be considered non-core.
A new worker hired into a lower-tier job will cost GM $25.65 in combined wages and benefits -- less than one-third of the $78.31 the automaker currently spends. Workers will have the opportunity to move into the higher paying jobs as they become available.
Flores said GM and the UAW are still negotiating details of the buyout offers to the remaining workers, as well how to define which jobs are considered non-core. Those issues must be signed off on in contracts being negotiated with dozens of GM plant-level union locals.
"We are operating in a very competitive environment and a focus on cutting costs will continue to be a priority for General Motors," he said.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071218/UPDATE/712180447/1148- - /rss25
Eric Morath / The Detroit News
A new UAW television advertising campaign aims to reshape the union's image from the organizers of industrial labor to a diverse organization that promotes workplace safety, fair trade and community involvement.
The ads, which began airing in Metro Detroit and four other markets this week, direct the public and UAW members to a Web site, IamtheUAW.org, where they are invited to share their own stories, post photos and YouTube videos. The first stories posted are those of members featured in the TV ads.
The 30-second spots feature tightly cropped shots of UAW members talking about the union's support of charitable causes and for higher global workplace standards.
One ad opens with Yolanda Crosby, a UAW-represented nurse, saying she is deeply concerned about the safety of toys imported from China. She says: "It's not just about product safety, but workplace safety. The workers who are making the unsafe products are working in unsafe environments."
The ads -- part of the first ever interactive marketing campaign from the UAW -- strive to change stereotypes about the union, said Daphne Rice, a worker at Ford Motor Co.'s Rawsonville plant and the subject of one of the commercials.
"My motto is we are more than autoworkers we want to send out a different message," she said.
"We have people in the UAW who are out there assisting their communities and making a difference."
Rice's ad talks about how UAW members contribute to many community activities. She noted that she is involved several outreach programs, including the Women Safe House Project.
Rice said she's an example of UAW workers who are more-than-meets-the-eye. She's the reining Ms. Galaxy after winning a national beauty pageant held in Orlando, Fla. She said musicians, artists and computer experts go to work with her every day at the plant.
The "I am the UAW" campaign is the union's first general awareness campaign in about 15 years. In addition to Detroit, the ads will air in Indianapolis, Jackson, Miss., Louisville, Ky., and Nashville, Tenn. The UAW would not disclose the cost of the ads.
The campaign aims to recast the UAW in a better light, following a year of difficult contract negotiations with Detroit's Big Three, which included two short strikes, said Laurie Harbour-Felax, an automotive consultant and managing director at Stout Risius Ross Inc.
"They want the public to start thinking of them as someone who can participate growing economy, rather than being a barrier to entry," said Harbour-Felax, referring to the notion that Toyota, Honda and others have been reluctant to build manufacturing plants in Michigan, in part because of the state's strong history of organized labor.
"These ads can show workers at Toyota, who have voted against joining the UAW, that (the union) benefits both workers and their communities."
Andrew Linko, a Ford electrician from Brownstown Township, said he hopes the ads will show more people that the UAW is a part of their lives, whether or not they're a member. He is featured in ad in which he talks about the union's efforts to improve worldwide workplace safety, as he paints furniture.
"We're bringing this down to the grass roots to show that we're not just big labor, not some third party, but we're your next-door neighbor or the person you play bingo with," he said.
UAW leaders said the ads aren't intended to recruit more members but rather to raise awareness of the activities and positions of the union.
The Web site which complements the advertising campaign features audio, photo and video-sharing technology. Participants can tell stories about why they became members or what their locals are doing to make a difference in the community.
"Communication today is a two-way street," said UAW President Ron Gettelfinger. "With an interactive Web site, we can help our members share real stories about who we are and what we have accomplished-with each other, with friends and neighbors and with the broader public."
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071218/AUTO01/712180335/1148- /AUTO01
-Rocky
http://www.unionvoice.org/ct/Fpz6OGn1rulU/
Restrictive work rules not only stifle the employer, they stifle the employee...maybe they now need better educated workers on the lines, simply because of the increased training...but who can be against more training or a better quality worker...
Do the imports "brainwash" the worker???...if I was a union member, I would answer yes, but it is the union member, IMO, who was originally brainwashed with an entitlement attitude that has only harmed the union and its worker reputation, i.e. simply the phrase "union worker" has about the same negatives as "Hillary Clinton"...
The imports train their workers that a better product is better for everybody, kinda like the W. Edwards Deming method of building it right from the beginning and only good will come from it (lower cost to make, less cost to warranty, happier customer and repeat buyers)...
Is it brainwashing to teach workers that everyone should work together for the good of the company???...no, not if they want to keep their jobs...you can either teach workers to be part of the team or antagonistic to the team...imports train you to be part of the team while the UAW has always been the antagonist...I question whether the union has figured this out yet, as the Big 3 will shed more and more workers while the imports seem to be stable or growing...
Just a few random thoughts from a random guy...
How about the NFL players union?
It's the holidays so I'm going to let marsha7's post slide for now !!!!
-Rocky
However, I sometimes wonder if there is more "positive public imaging" than genuine humanitarian motives behind these contributions.
I also submit there's some truth to what Marsha7 says about non productive work practices stifling employers' ability be more competitive.
Having spent a number of years as a shop floor guy in a UAW/CAW environment, I can attest to a good many work rules which don't make much sense, and certainly don't add any value to processes, nor do they really benefit workers.
I can quote any number of examples, but it would serve little purpose here.
I'm sure if you are honest with yourself you've seen some of what Marsha7 talks about.
It is systemic in too many work places, and a real problem which will have be reckoned with sometime soon.
Suffice to say, there always has been resistance by unions to change or modify such work practices whether they make no sense or otherwise, primarily because it's generally not politically advantagious for elected union officials to support such change.
Rank and file resistance is probably even stronger, for obvious reasons.
The harsh reality is---if resistance to change continues re work practices serving only to add cost and inefficiencies to the process, unions are doing more harm than good to their members.
My holiday will be joyous, as rocky has decided to give me a break until, I assume, the New Year, or at least until after Xmas...:):):)
rocky: has the new job started yet, or does it start after jan 1, 2008???
Marsha7, I started my new job last week pal. I'm on week 2 and still in training status thus I'm not getting paid. I probably won't start making a pay check until after the first of the year but I did receive a lot of training and got to rub elbows with some big wigs today in Troy, MI.
-Rocky
Kinda of a which came first the chicken or the egg. Do you think the UAW should accept any of the responsibility for jobs going overseas and to Mexico? I think some of the lack of flexibility pushed the Big 3 to build factories in less hostile locations. I know in 98 when the UAW struck against GM our Local Teamsters president thought they were making a BIG strategic mistake.
Well we can play he said she said all we want but the bottom line is the Teamster's had the priveledge of gaining large sums of cash back in the day when Hoffa Sr. was king of the hill of all unionsand a player in the mob. The Teamsters to the best of my knowledge still is the largest union in the U.S. today and perhaps might always will be. They have bargaining contracts with lots of large corporations. The Teamster's is a union I've always had a great deal of respect for because they played hard ball and forced their memberships employers in a corner when they got greedy. The UAW, is merely a pimple in size compared to the Teamster's and it's (UAW) focus was on the automobile industry and area thats been hit harder by the free market than perhaps any other large sector of our economy. Duncan Hunter, Ross Perot, John Edwards, Dennis Kucinich, Lou Dobbs, Michael Savage, and many others etc have acknowledged over the years about unfair trade and it's justa cold hard fact of the U.S. business enviroment.
So yeah we can just blame the UAW, and throw stones at them but because of our unfair trade & free markets with 3rd world labor, and throw in the currency manipulation issues it has severely damaged a once successful part of our economy for both company and employee. I'm not saying the japanese didn't make better american products but it is all out of whack and has crossed the line. :sick:
The UAW, has given the automobile manufactors lots of flexibility but going from doing one job a day to doing three+depending on job at some locations and them wanting the employees to stick a broom up their butt to sweep as they are working was never enough even though some of these factory's net income like my father Coopersville, Plant was making $140+ million a year. :sick:
-Rocky
There's still a long way to go in terms of antiquated and obsolete work practices, plus the culture of "entitlement" is still a force to be reckoned with in attempts to effect change.
Our present home base is in the alleged "Automobile Capital of Canada"--all of the former big three have operations here or near here.
This community is, and has been for decades, well known as a "Union Town".
Most of the folks one meets or deals with daily are union members or family/relatives/friends of same.
As I said earlier, much of my career was, and still is, shop floor related.
Make no mistake, the prevailing culture in auto plants these days is still very much "past practice" oriented.
Those "bads" as you put it, haven't gone away by any means.
Some things are being done differently, but from what I see, the changes made so far seem more cosmetic than practical.
However, recent shocks of plant closures and dramatic staff cutbacks are beginning to sink in.
Some are getting the message, altho' I fear it may be too little-too late to recover.
Blaming trade practices, currency manipulation, or whatever external influences you choose, isn't entirely to blame, nor is isolationism in these issues the answer to the problem.
North America, whether we like it or not, is just another player in a world economy--and we're no longer calling all the shots.
You are making my point for me. So what if management wants a line person to sweep the floor or mop up the lavatory. It is much more cost efficient at times to have one employee doing more than one job. Myself and fellow employees shared the duties of cleaning our office and lavatory since day one. It was that or have a dirty place to work. Management did not care they were 700 air miles south in Anchorage. The contract signed just after I retired is even more loose. The technicians have to change the oil in the trucks and do minor repairs to the buildings. They did not even get a raise out of it. So they lost a position of facilities mechanic. It was that or take the risk of losing even more. These are tough times as you know. There are no guarantees in the Constitution about labor being treated fairly. It is so much more competitive now. You fit in or fall out.
If my boss wanted me to sweep the floor for $100k per year. I did it with a smile
Thankfully our local 959 Alaska Teamsters are autonomous from the International. We have our own very well funded retirement. In my 37 years in that Union we had very little to do with the rest of the Teamsters outside Alaska. So we did not get affected by all the corruption. Though we had a bit of our own from time to time.
The best thing for the UAW and the Big 3 is to give early retirement packages to all the older employees that are stuck in their world of entitlements. They may be great at what they do. If they will not make changes they are a detriment to the UAW and the company.
Well I for one will never conform to that way of thinking. The jerks in Washington, started this economic war and they can finish it or otherwise people like me will vote for full blown socialism to counter the greedy elites !!!!! :mad:
-Rocky
Yes, economically undeveloped countries in the world are gaining on us, and one can understand your concerns.
Ultimately that will affect all of us in North America in the long run.
Our current status as an economic powerhouse isn't going to last forever--and the easy affluence we've enjoyed for generations is envied by others now in position to do something about it.
To a degree, all of us share the blame for that envy! (Remember I said some time ago "More isn't always better"!!)
However, your message about 'slavery' and 'one world government' is just a little over the top though! Wrong message, indeed!!
Coping with world wide economic changes in the future will be a challenge, but not an impossible challenge.
Most definitely, socialism, isolationism, or any such knee jerk solutions make about as little sense as nuking any economic competitors.
Perhaps the UAW should be thinking more about helping the situation, instead of the 'More' philosophy---or instead of always looking to the Govt. to bail them out of their (somewhat self inflicted) predicament?
Do you think that people in countries like Russia that were socialist, were not enslaved a lot worse than US? Who do you think the greedy elites are? It is the elitist in the Democratic party that want to enslave you. Give us all your money and we will take care of you. Ask someone that lived in Romania, Bulgaria or East Germany under Socialism what they think of your idea. Your idea of US becoming like Norway is not realistic. Because of our size and diversity we would end up more like Communist Russia. Until working conditions get like they were 100 years ago you will not see a labor revolution. The country as a whole is too wealthy and complacent. It amazes me how young couples today have a big screen TV in the living room and a TV in the bedroom. When I first went to work in 1961 I saved for a year to afford a little B&W TV. I drove used cars until I saved enough for a down payment new car in 1964. You and your generation have it way too easy. The biggest difference in the wealthy classes. Most of the Rich back then were old money, like the Kennedys, Rockefellers, Duponts and Fords. Today we have far more wealthy people just like you and me. They worked hard and built a small business. Now they are fighting to keep the government from taking it all away and giving it to the do nothing class.
people use to be able to work 40 hours a week and raise a family and because we propped up China
We started to give that up when we bought the first TV and portable radio from Japan in the 1950s. When do you think it became difficult for a single income to support the average family? Just because Michigan was isolated for a lot of years from the realities of the working family, does not mean it was not happening in this country. In California by the 1960s moms were forced to get a job to keep the family fed and housed. You have a very narrow view of the working class in this country. If you have anything in your home made in China you are as much to blame as anyone else. My wife spent a lot more on presents for the grandkids, nieces and nephews so that everything she bought was "Made in the USA". If you want to actually support your fellow American workers this is the place to start. If you go to any mainstream store, all you will find is the crap made in China. Be prepared to pay at least twice as much for toys made here in America.
http://www.madeinusa.org/nav.cgi?data/toys
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/art/slavelabor2.jpg
That will be your average american because unions will cease to exist because the greedy pseudo-capitalist are gripping the reins in Washington, D.C. :sick:
Well gagrice, each generation was suppose to have it better than the last one. That was the way it has always worked. Now instead of going forward we have taken a wrong turn sometime in 2000' I think in early November and it's been down hill ever since.
-Rocky
Why do you think socialism eventually collapsed there, and even China has moved to a free market society?
Socialism is just another form of capitalism--it's State Controlled Capitalism.
The only difference is that in our society you get to keep a little more for yourself.
Wanting to be thy brother's keeper only works if your brother doesn't seek "more"!
I like the pics.
Have you bought your children any toys from China? Is your computer built in China? Where was the TV you watch Lou Dobbs on built? If any of those were built outside the USA, shame on you.
My 1988, 1990 & 1993 GM 3/4 PUs were built in Canada. My 1998 Suburban was built in Monterey Mexico. My 2005 GMC PU was built in Indiana. The 2007 Sequoia I just bought was built in Indiana. So this BS about losing auto jobs since 2000 has no TRUTH to it. The overall economy is better than it was in 1999. The GDP is much higher. Employment is higher. The gigantic CEO salaries have not gone up as much as they did in the 1990s. So you really need to look at the whole country not just Grand Rapids. Maybe the greed in Michigan pushed the automakers up to Canada and down to Indiana and Mexico. I think if you look at auto manufacturing as a whole. More vehicles were built in the USA in 2007 than in 2000. You are just mad because they were not all built in Michigan. The wealth has been distributed across the USA.
By the way. My step father worked two jobs all through the 1950s and 60s so my mom would not have to work. And he was in the Carpenters Union. So that 40 hour single income support must have only been in your part of the USA. I don't know anyone in management that works less than 50 hours per week. Most work closer to 70 hours.
A great example of that is going on in New Orleans right now. Those that are displaced want to be returned to their old way of life. It is not going to happen. Sadly it was a chance to get out of that situation. Many took advantage and have settled elsewhere.
Socialism is just another form of capitalism--it's State Controlled Capitalism.
I think you are right. Look at Putin. It is rumored that he is the head of a $40 billion empire. With much of it stashed in foreign banks. With all its problems, I will still take the USA over any other country. I don't want no stinking King. Unless its ME :shades:
The situation there is still pretty rough, I'm sad to say, and it's not improving very quickly.
Last Feb. a group of us went there to help rebuild some homes, and we're going back again next Feb.
We Canucks aren't all bad y'know!!
I couldn't believe the devastation, and how much recovery effort is still desperately needed.
We are too soon distracted by our own self serving interests I'm afraid.
For sure, many folks there won't be back to any semblance of normal for several more years, and even then, long term security from more flooding is dicey!
It's easy for us to say "move", but there isn't that alternative for some.
Now if the UAW wanted to really get some worthy PR and exert pressure on the Govt., helping that situation would be one good way.
What do you say Rocky??
Nope !!! Not recently.......
Is your computer built in China?
It's a Gateway, and I'm not sure of where it was made as it's not mine. Iknow they are manufactoring their computers as of this year back in the U.S. cuz I saw a article in the paper about it. I know they pride themselves on having their customer support system 100% american so to the best of my knowledge they are currently the most american computer company.
Where was the TV you watch Lou Dobbs on built?
It's a Panasonic 58' Plasma and was manufactored in Mexico.
If any of those were built outside the USA, shame on you.
Okay start naming me TV's, computers, builthere in the U.S. of A gagrice ????
Come-on start naming !!!!! Oh you can't ? That's what I thought. Because of the republican party and your hero Ronald Reagan, and his Reaganomics, big business got tax breaks for off-shoring. The cycle continues to this day. Clinton, is to blame also because he could of faught NAFTA, but back in those days the fools including some democrats believed we were going to in return get high paying jobs. I was and always have been against NAFTA, and believed Ross Perot, was going to be right. Hell the unions were against it from the get go !!!! I held up Say No To NAFTA signs and wore a like shirts with the same slogan. :mad:
My 1988, 1990 & 1993 GM 3/4 PUs were built in Canada. My 1998 Suburban was built in Monterey Mexico. My 2005 GMC PU was built in Indiana. The 2007 Sequoia I just bought was built in Indiana. So this BS about losing auto jobs since 2000 has no TRUTH to it.
What ???? So you are one who believes the transplants have filled in the gaps and replaced all the lost auto jobs ???? :surprise: Gagrice, my friend that is incorrect. I have for the last couple of years have posted links showing quite the opposite. We have lost hundreds of thousands of auto jobs since the 1980's. The ones that are being replaced make a fraction compared to what my family made. Hyundai, pays $13-14 bucks an hours ??? Dad, was knocking down $29 an hour a year and a half ago.
The overall economy is better than it was in 1999.
That is absurd !!!! :confuse:
The GDP is much higher.
As most economist I've listen to say you can't judge an economy soley on GDP. I guess Rush, likes to spout that number ???
Employment is higher.
I guess that depends on who you ask. Alot of people who lost their jobs aren't elgible for unemployment benefits because A. They ran out of them. B. They lost their new job got on unemployment again but were only limited amount of weeks. I know people in that situation who have been let go more than twice in their field do to downsizing or plant closings. The jobs being replaced are low wage jobs and that goes for college educated folks. Sure you can site a few like your family that have moved to Austin, Dallas, and got a good job but overall we are worse off in "real wages" than any time since the depression. Even our foreign TV picking up Lou Dobbs, can broadcast that !!! :P
The gigantic CEO salaries have not gone up as much as they did in the 1990s.
I guess those oil suits never cashed those $500 million dollars worth of retirement checks. :surprise: Dobbs, would dispute your claim. He spoke a few months ago on that subject and said the wage gap from CEO to Worker keeps widening. :sick:
I have and outside of a few places in Arizona, Wyoming, Alaska, the rest of the country has been hit hard. If it wasn't for the senior citizens that have money which most do this country would be in a world of hurt. My generation is likely to not
beable to retire because of the mess the greedy in your generation have caused.
Maybe the greed in Michigan pushed the automakers up to Canada and down to Indiana and Mexico.
How can you whom made $38 bucks an hour at your union job can hammer your union brothers and sisters will always puzzle me. The CAW, is not much different from the UAW. The major difference is they have national healthcare thus medical is cheaper. The Mexicans, will work for a couple bucks an hour like slaves and push junk out the doors. What has been built in Indiana, recently ? Oh that Honda, plant ??? Well they can get hair lipped hillbilly's in the very rural area's to believe the company propaganda for meager wages. If they don't like em' anymore well tap em'on the shoulder and tell them to leave. The employee has no recourse like you and I had. However it seems to me you made it big and you have forgotten where you came from and how you made that good money. I have a great uncle who thinks alot like you. A tool & die worker. Great guy but like I always told him you should of promoted because he was a wanna be. Gagrice, I wasn't always the most respectful child and teenager in the world. I sometimes was pretty blunt but I get that from my grandmother.
I think if you look at auto manufacturing as a whole. More vehicles were built in the USA in 2007 than in 2000.
I'm not sure if I buy that or not. I don't have the data to be certain. I know a lot of vehicles are containing far less domestic content today than in 2000. :sick:
Just because a Hyundai/Kia is slapped togeather here doesn't make it American. It only contains 3-5% domestic content.
You are just mad because they were not all built in Michigan. The wealth has been distributed across the USA.
Actually which individual state never entered my mind. But yeah, naturally I'd like at least some of it built here in Michigan, because for god sakes the automobile industry was founded in my state. If I was a multi-billionaire I would literally change the U.S. especially this state.
By the way. My step father worked two jobs all through the 1950s and 60s so my mom would not have to work. And he was in the Carpenters Union. So that 40 hour single income support must have only been in your part of the USA.
I doubt Michigan, was the only state where the mans wages could support a family. Which state did your Pa, work in as a carpenter ??? California ??? I know my grandparents worked for General Electric. My grandmother didn't work until the kids got older and the only reason she wanted to work so she could have very nice things thus she went to college and eventually became a union rep.
I don't know anyone in management that works less than 50 hours per week.
I sure do !!!! I know lots of management folks who only work 40 hours week and got every weekend off to boot and these folks are not just in Michigan.
Most work closer to 70 hours.
Hey we agree on something as that is true !!!! I believe the number is closer to 60 unless you are like Wagoner, who has to put in the long hours.
-Rocky
Oh, they already are in certain places. Companies like Wal~Mart are definately doing their darnedest to turn back the clock by a century.
Those are communist country's not socialist. I know the right-wing likes to compare the two but actually capitalism is closer in relationship to communism than Socialism. :confuse:
Apples to Oranges !!!
-Rocky
Do I have it better off than my Mom and Dad? Well, I have a much nicer car, but I'm not married nor do I have any children. I guess it's a wash. I should've been able to have a family and all that if the American dream was still a reality for the average middle class person. Guess it wasn't meant to be. I'm just happy to hang onto that which I still have as a genetic dead end.
Bush, just through billions at it and hoped the problem would go away. It didn't help that they had a hand appointed incompetent guy running FEMA. I guess 9/11 didn't teach Bush, anything but that is why some believe in the 9/11 conspiracy because any person with a half a brain would of put somebody who had practical experience in that position after 9/11. :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
U.S. made toys? Well, I think Slinkies are still made in western PA. Louis Marx & Co. was once the biggest toy manufacturer in the world and they were based in West Virginia. Shoot, Marx made a lot of cool toys back in the day. Google Marx Toy Company some time and check it out.
-Rocky
-Rocky
The only people to blame for manufacturing going overseas is the American buying public. When we started getting TVs from Japan there were still several companies building them here. The bottom line is they were cheaper and we bought into it. It started long before Reagan became President. VW was selling cars here in the late 1950s. Toyota and Datsun was here by 1962.
You seem to think that people in the auto plants in the South are under paid. I don't think so. If they were not making a living they would have gone elsewhere or signed UAW cards.
You worry about content of automobiles. The Toyota Camry has more domestic content than any Big 3 car. The only vehicles with higher domestic content is the Ford F series PU and the Silverado PU.
Cars.com's American Made Index rates vehicles put together and purchased in the U.S. Factors include where the cars' parts are made, where the cars are assembled and how many are sold in the U.S.. Eligible models must have a domestic-parts-content rating of 75 percent or more, the minimum federal standard for a car to be labeled domestic.
http://www.cars.com/go/about/us.jsp?section=P&content=rel&date=20060630
Your unionized entitlement-oriented whining attitude is showing, along with your apparent lack of understanding of business...your statement alone reveals that you mistakenly think business exists to create jobs, rather than the true reality, business exists to create profit for the owners or shareholders
Until the UAW commits to TOTAL flexibility, you will lose this war...there is nothing wrong with putting on fenders before lunch, sweeping the mess after luch, and cleaning the bathroom just prior to clocking out...
You really do live in denial...you actually believe that there is something wrong with an employee having six different job functions in a day...go to your local hardware store, where you see people unload trucks, check the delivery against the packing slip, place product on the shelf so idiots like me can find it, escort me to the cash register where they ring up the sale and take my money...
Your mind must be in a bubble, as you MARVEL at the fact that some UAW folks have CONCEDED to perform 3 different jobs in a day...one of their major problems IS the restrictive job classifications that resulted in a half a million employees doing the work that only required half as much in any normal business...
They conceded in order to come into the 20th century and keep what jobs still exist...give 'em til the next contract, and they may come into the 21st century...
rocky, please bring your head out of the sand...what you call reality simply does not exist anymore and died about 15 years ago...only a union mentality can't see what is happening...come back to earth, please...
That sounds pretty low to me. I think historical delinquency and foreclosure rates run closer to 4%. (link)
Meanwhile, UAW workers take wage cuts while management seeks bonuses:
UAW opposes Delphi bonuses (Detroit Free Press)
You said:..."The only people to blame for manufacturing going overseas is the American buying public."
I said earlier:...:..."We are too soon distracted by our own self interest I'm afraid."
Marsha7 has repeatedly said;..."Stop burying your head in the sand"
Rocky:....We're all saying the same thing. It's time you paid attention!!
So "cars.com" is hiting the Toyota crack pipe. :mad:
-Rocky
Your unionized entitlement-oriented whining attitude is showing, along with your apparent lack of understanding of business...your statement alone reveals that you mistakenly think business exists to create jobs, rather than the true reality, business exists to create profit for the owners or shareholders
Until the UAW commits to TOTAL flexibility, you will lose this war...there is nothing wrong with putting on fenders before lunch, sweeping the mess after luch, and cleaning the bathroom just prior to clocking out...
You really do live in denial...you actually believe that there is something wrong with an employee having six different job functions in a day...go to your local hardware store, where you see people unload trucks, check the delivery against the packing slip, place product on the shelf so idiots like me can find it, escort me to the cash register where they ring up the sale and take my money...
Your mind must be in a bubble, as you MARVEL at the fact that some UAW folks have CONCEDED to perform 3 different jobs in a day...one of their major problems IS the restrictive job classifications that resulted in a half a million employees doing the work that only required half as much in any normal business...
They conceded in order to come into the 20th century and keep what jobs still exist...give 'em til the next contract, and they may come into the 21st century...
rocky, please bring your head out of the sand...what you call reality simply does not exist anymore and died about 15 years ago...only a union mentality can't see what is happening...come back to earth, please...
Go Ahead Mock Me !!!!!
I just don't want to hear you whine when your kids, grand kids and/or family are slaves to the asians. I also don't want you and your capitalist buddy's to expect me to shed blood for their foolishness. :mad:
-Rocky
UAW opposes Delphi bonuses (Detroit Free Press)
What else is new !!!! This is the type of corruption and greed I'm talking about but in this forum some find this corruption okay. :sick:
-Rocky
So I'm the one who has my head buried in the sand ????
I think not. I see what is going on and understand why this and that has happened and why compromise has had to be made by the UAW, to survive.
However you and some others have ya'lls heads buried deep in the sand on what is going on in the U.S.
The elites, want to expand NAFTA, implement CAFTA, do a like free trade policy with South Korea, and do a American Union where we share a common currency with the Mexicans, and Canadians. Right now we are bank rolling Asia, especially the chinese, and if that isn't enough to scare you then I'm not sure what will ???
I guess you can continue to mock me which is fine but I truely believe in the end I will stand correct. Not to be arrogant I usually am and I honestly don't want to be correct on this issue. I might not see the worst of it in my lifetime but my kids and grand kids sure could. :sick:
-Rocky