Also, just from reading your posts, you might have trouble seeing that attitude in workers, simply because you are as biased to the union and their attitude as I am biased against it...I just believe that I see the forest for the trees, and the pro-union folks, IMO, seem to live in deep denial of what the market is telling them...no insult intended, but reading your posts one can come to no other conclusion...
Like I've said many times over and over I understand what the market is doing but just because that is reality and it is happening like so does not mean I have to clap my hands and support the agenda of the elites. The union folks had to comply with the free market conditions and as a result are making far less. I've linked to many articles over the last year what the new UAW workers are making compared to the older vets and it's about half as much. With all these union folks losing their jobs and disposable income all I can say things are going to get far worst for the economy. :sick:
Have you sold any policies yet???
I have not had the oppertunity marsha7. They are to busy sticking me with more and more sales presentations. I trained with co-workers for a couple hours 11-2 and set appointments for 7 hours Wednesday. Was suppose to be a meeting but that was canceled because my big boss wasn't done with his holidays. You know I'm not very happy and probably going to bail. I have a lead from a long time friend of the family who works for a insurance company and she told my mom if this company doesn't work out for Rocky, send him over here. She couldn't believe the sales pitch we had to memorize. Guys imagine trying to recite over a dozen pages of information and it has to flow smoothly. You get recorded on camera and until you can deliver it smoothly you are banned from going out in the field. I have a couple of co-workers out of the Lansing, office whom have been there two and half weeks longer than I who are yet to make anything. So it's not just Rocky, who is having issues. I also just today tipped my hat back into autosales. My trainer right now is trying to schedule me interviews for early next week and will hear from him today on times.
I also have a cousin who is starting a upper management job for a medical supply company and he told me he's going to hire me maybe by the ned of next month if everything goesas planned. So perhaps something finally will go career wise right for me. I'm getting frusterated, and am tired of working for free and being lied too. :sick:
Worker problems, by their sheer numbers, are much larger than mgmt problems, but the your point about the suits is valid...
I don't know what you are baseing that point on ???? Lots of non-union shops have left for China, closed up, or moved south of the border to exploit slave labor. I read a article the other day one of you posted here on edmunds showing that illegal aliens are having better luck gaining employment in Mexico, than here because they have more jobs available. The rate of illegal alien parents with american born Mexicans applying for Mexico citizenship is at all time high. :surprise: That my friend should tell you something shouldn't it ????
Didn't Neutron Jack, get a half-billion or was it a billion dollar retirement package ??? Sure GE, succeeded greatly on his watch because he was a hatchet man. They use to make very high quality stuff and now it's shoddy Chinese made. :sick:
Unlike the list of CEOs I posted, Jack Welch made GE stockholders a lot of money in his 20 years as the boss. GE owned the company I worked for RCA Global Communications. When they took over the Long Distance for the whole state of Alaska in 1971 they encouraged us to become Union, which we did. If he laid off a lot of people and still made GE the most valuable company in the World. It would be hard to not give him a good retirement. Which GE did in 1996. A lot of CEOs bailed with huge stock options during the dot.com bubble.
They use to make very high quality stuff and now it's shoddy Chinese made
GE still makes very high quality stuff. GE builds the biggest and best jet engines in the world. They bought 993 companies while Welch was CEO. They are the largest supplier of massive wind generators. They build too many things to list. So you are making a statement that cannot be backed up. I am sure many of their companies are union.
"You know I'm not very happy and probably going to bail"...wait a minute...I thought you were to be selling insurance policies (never did learn what kind...life, health, disability, auto...) to union members...
Now here is where I made an assumption...if your company had inroads with the union, any union, would you not be considered as an "approved" seller???...and, wouldn't that lead to a bias in your favor for better sales, since anything "approved" for sale to union members would be looked upon differently that if I walked up and tried to sell something???
I am not implying that you didn't have to work hard, but aren't the skids already greased in your favor BECAUSE you were approved to sell to union members???...
Did you actually have to memorize pages of script, without variation, or did you have to learn the company's products backward and forward, similar to a new employee working at a restaurant must learn the menu options so almost any question can be answered...
With Xmas just ending, and consumers tapped out, is this the best time to go into car sales in Lansing, with sub-zero temps and snow???
Well I'm no expert about the other "General" but I did have a lot of relatives including my mom, grandmother, uncles, aunt, that worked for GE. So I do know a little about GE. My grandmother negotiated contracts with Neutron Jack, and my great aunt owned a large sum of GE, stock. So much that she was allowed to pull my grandmother off the line and take her to lunch while my grandmother was still on the clock.
As far as GE, goes I do have favorable opinions of the company. As I have said many times before GE, is the largest and most powerful corporation in the world.
wait a minute...I thought you were to be selling insurance policies (never did learn what kind...life, health, disability, auto...) to union members...
I technically would sell life (WL &Term) and accident. I have a state of Michigan, life and health insurance license. The focus of our company is to labor unions and associations.
Now here is where I made an assumption...if your company had inroads with the union, any union, would you not be considered as an "approved" seller???...and, wouldn't that lead to a bias in your favor for better sales, since anything "approved" for sale to union members would be looked upon differently that if I walked up and tried to sell something???
That would be correct and since I know how many of them think compared to Joe Blow, who's never been around unions at all. One would think they would want to bend over backwards to keep me around. I do have friends and family in leadership positions in unions. The unions look over our stuff and it is indeed very good insurance. We mainly focus on "gaps" that union employees don't have covered.
I am not implying that you didn't have to work hard, but aren't the skids already greased in your favor BECAUSE you were approved to sell to union members???...
Well any licensed producer can sell to union members but the unions like the fact that our company is "technically" a 100% wall to wall unionized company. I would say more but I'm best to keep my lips shut for now.
Did you actually have to memorize pages of script, without variation, or did you have to learn the company's products backward and forward, similar to a new employee working at a restaurant must learn the menu options so almost any question can be answered...
It's a script without variation. The sad thing is Marsha7, it is poorly written and simple spelling and sentence errors make things tougher. This script was supposably written by a marketing major but I beginning to think it might of been written by somebody dumber than a 2nd grader. No pun intended to 2nd graders. I'm not the only person who thinks like that. I did it in front of others the other day and boy do I sound like a darn Robot. We have several rebutals scripts we have to memorize and a couple of them I find very insulting. I tested it rebutals on family members and some told me if somebody talked to them like that they wouldshow them the door. :surprise:
With Xmas just ending, and consumers tapped out, is this the best time to go into car sales in Lansing, with sub-zero temps and snow???
Well the first of the year is when a lot of dealerships like to hire so their newby salesman will be prepared when the spring time rush hits. I haven't bailed yet as I'm not going to quit until I get another job. However, I will admit I am looking pretty hard once again for something more stable and less focused on sales pitchs and more on the needs of the customer. If you give somebody a long, dragged out sales pitch, union or not they are going to be very skeptical. If you could be more yourself and focus on why they need the coverage or not I think would close sales and you could feel authentic doing it. I guess the hardest part for me in sales is I'm a honest person. I don't need to sound like some slick used car salesman. I thought we got rid of those types 20 years ago ? :sick:
I don't need to sound like some slick used car salesman. I thought we got rid of those types 20 years ago ?
If anything there are more now. The competition for the car buyer has never been stronger. Most car sales people I have come across will tell you whatever they think you want to hear about whatever car you are looking at. Most do not know the product as well as an informed Edmund's poster. It seems like a cut throat business with little room for an honest person. Kind of like politicians.
...and saw an old black & white documentary from the mid-1960s about automation. Towards the end of the movie the narrator talked about how automation caused a problem by eliminating a lot of jobs and its impact on future generations as they showed pictures of newborn infants, (ironic, because I was born in 1965). What the narrator and most Americans at that time couldn't envision was the exponentionally greater evil called outsourcing and the massive migratiom overseas that eliminated far more jobs than automation possibly could.
Globalization via trade with China and like country's to make a extra buck=WW3 and Death for millions not just union folks !!! So keep supporting those global trade agreements, being anti-union, and your chinese master will keep thanking you. :sick:
Did you notice the hood decapitating the dummy's head as it sliced through the windshield? Repeat of the Vega after hitting the Impala head on in the film"Small Car Crashes 1972" :sick:
In one of those the steering wheel came rocketing back before or as the airbag went off. That would place it out of position (as if there were a position relative to the car with that much deforming occuring).
It sure woke me up. I would never want to be in a Honda Civic after seeing that crash. It shows that a 4WD with BOF is the only way to be safe. It is also reflected in lower insurance rates.
little secrets of the last 30 years that environmentalists like the Siera Club do not want you to know is this:
They have always advocated for higher mpg cars, which, in and of itself, is not a problem...but they also continually spewed out that people should not have larger cars, only small cars like Civic, Corolla, Pinto, Vega, and others...
First, they never account for families with more than one child, as tho a family of five will easily fit in a tiny car...
BUT, most of all, they ignore crash results of small cars hitting larger cars or trucks or stationary objects like trees, guard rails, etc.
The death rate in small cars is much higher in collisions where the larger vehicle simply offered more protection because you were surrounded by more car...
Basically, the Sierras and those like them were willing to increase the death rate simply to save a few gallons of gas...
For that alone, I have no respect for them at all...
I don't think bigger cars are the issue - if the UAW gets to make (hey, how did the UAW sneak in here?), er.. if the UAW gets to make fuel efficient 42 mpg Excursions, then everyone can go to Zion in the same vehicle.
Just a little host humor - since the "Big 3" contracts are signed, sealed and delivered perhaps it's time to put this one to rest? All in all, there's not much UAW related discussion going on in here.
What impact will a change in fuel economy have on the mix of vehicles produced?
What impact will that have on the UAW plants in the US?
Will the UAW lose even more of our jobs in the US and Canada to other countries?
Will the need for more fuel efficient vehicles, perhaps smaller but likely different
than we have now, allow for new plants to be built in the US with UAW workers? OR will the new plants all be essentially the foreign companies with US plants employing nonUAW workers at lower and lower real wages?
Those are the questions that are going to be asked and while the answers might trickle out slowly, this forum is the only proper place to discuss them without being off-topic.
...last night and he was talking with some woman about the economy and fears of a recession. The lady was saying things were alright, but Jay was concerned about the U.S. losing its manufacturing base, how everything seems to be made in China these days, and how he tries to buy American-made products whenever possible. Mr. Leno is a big-time car enthusiast. His support for Americans and American jobs makes him an even cooler guy than ever!
Agree......I like Jay Leno, and feel he is by far the funniest late night talk show radio host. John Edwards, has been told by some economist we could lose an additional 25-30 million jobs to overseas by the end of the next decade. :sick:
Lemko, here's the UAW's toughest competition to date !!!
Tata unveils world's cheapest car
$2,500 tinament that will probably be sold at Wal~Mart. :sick:
Good name for the cheap piece of crap as in "Ta ta!" to all our jobs. Even poor folks don't want to be seen in such a turd. One would be better off buying a much nicer used car. The horrible fuel economy is another nail in its coffin.
All of your questions have been debated every which way but loose already. Not a whole lot more can be said which hasn't already been said many times. It seems this forum is morphing into mostly "badmouth the foreign carmakers"
Personally, I would like to see discussion on "What can/must the UAW itself do to help stop the bleeding?" The reason I ask that question is primarily because what has transpired so far seems focussed on "what others need to do for the UAW ---Fed/State governments, Politicians, Management, Car Buyers, etc". Historically, unions like the UAW tend to point to others as the authors of their misfortunes, but in reality, the unions themselves are part of the equation whether they like it or not. So let's hear some ideas--and maybe somebody will listen? (And please...let's hear some new and creative suggestions, and don't just trot out old platitudes about "we've already done all we can do--it's those darn offshore carmakers/the Govt./Management--yada, yada, yada.!")
Silverfox, what more can the UAW, do ???? They slashed their pay and benefits more than half and you ask what can the UAW, do ??? Now it's time for Fed/State government, politicians, management, to step up to the plate. With GM, we are seeing car buyers step up because of the good product !!!!
The foreign car makers get an occassional negative remark because they are non-union, play on the american as apple pie theme, and try to protray a image that doesn't fit our reality.
I know you are a toyota fan boy or a employee of toyota and dislike unions very much. Hey that's fine but if you don't like the discussion you can click it off your watch list. Their are plenty of discussions I choose not to follow or post in and no I'm not saying you are not welcome here because you are.
I've watched some of our best topics get turned into "read only's" because a select few people (I won't mention names) who disliked the topic because it didn't fit their agenda.
What can/must the UAW itself do to help stop the bleeding?
They could try to organize the Chinese automakers, but if the UAW can't even pick off the low-hanging fruit at home I don't think they'd have much luck in the PRC.
Rocky, with all due respect, you are way out in left field on all counts. Your coming out with guns blazing isn't going to end the issue, it's only going to make it worse--not just for you but for others too! It's exactly that kind of confrontational culture that got the UAW into trouble in the first place. There's a whole lot more the UAW can do that needn't involve pay/benefit cuts. All I'm asking is to examine the possibilities--and there are many if you just open up your mind! So put your guns away and try to be constructive for once!
Obviously that's not an easy question to answer. We can armchair quarterback all day long.
Since we generally discuss GM, I'll stick with them. GM needs to sell vehicles at a profit in enough numbers to support their business model, or the model has to change, or GM goes bankrupt. No politician will change the fact that GM has built to many uncompetitive vehicles over the past several decades and still is (seems to be changing fast). I know the GM faithful on this board will flame me, but I've driven enough GM vehicles over the years to plainly see why GM has continued to lose market share. Thankfully most of the GM turds I've driven have been retired, but a few still remain. The new Malibu and CTS are the first two cars from GM that I could see myself buying.
I don't know what the UAW can do to help GM do this other than allow flexibility to promote productivity, but that goes against what the UAW is for, maximizing membership/retaining jobs. OTOH, GM has been poorly managed and only until recently does it look like they may have a winning game plan, but still a long way to go and past mistakes have dug them a huge hole.
Seems many have the labor/business relationship backwards. Business doesn't exist merely for the benefit of an employee. I know many business owners not one of them created their business so they could create jobs. They did because they had a business plan to make more money while working for themselves. If they could hire employees to help them MAKE MORE MONEY then great.
Those who understand this concept are usually successful whether they are self employed or not. IMO, those who go to work thinking the company owes them usually are dead weight and need union to protect them.
I knew a guy who was a press operator at a GM plant in Ontario, Ohio. All he did was brag about how much money he made while he and a few of his co-workers got paid o/t while getting drunk on the job. I'm not kidding and this was about 6 years ago. I have no doubt that this is not the norm, but the mere fact that someone can drink on the job w/o worrying about getting canned is a serious problem.
Hell, my FIL got a DUI back in the 70's driving home after an evening shift at the steel mill he worked 32 years at. A crane operator brought in a cooler full of beer and they drank the whole shift on new years eve. These are the types of activities that give unions a bad wrap.
They slashed their pay and benefits more than half and you ask what can the UAW, do ???
Are you saying the existing UAW members took a 50% cut in pay and benefits as a result of these most recent Contracts with the Big 3?
Or do you mean new hires will come in at lower wages and fewer benefits? There is a huge difference. I am not saying making the new hire wages very low is good. It does give the Big 3 a chance to compete. If it is not a living wage people will not take the jobs. You need to take a look around. 50% of US families have a household income below $30k per year. You are in the top of the middle class with $65k per year income.
I am sorry to all you UAW supporters for saying this but...
If the starting average salary for college graduates with bachelor degrees is around $40k then I don't see why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma's starting salary should be higher than $40k.
>the top of the middle class with $65k per year income.
Oh my goodness. Is that right? I'm really surprised.
Depending on the source, it seems the middle class is defined as household income between $25k-$99k. Anymore I'd think a family of 4 with an income under $50k would be a struggle.
Rock, $65k would put you in the higher middle. Most numbers I've seen put the median household income around $48k.
Safest vehicles according to them: AUDI A3 BMW X3 BMW X5 HONDA ACCORD HONDA ELEMENT HONDA ODYSSEY HYUNDAI VERACRUZ SATURN VUE SUBARU IMPREZA TOYOTA HIGHLANDER TOYOTA TUNDRA
The only large vehicles on that list are Tundra and Odyssey.
On the other hand death rates are higher in smaller vehicles.
So, you have fewer accidents in smaller vehicles but they are more lethal. FWIW- the Civic actually gets a 'Gold' standard for safety in the small car sector.
Also, the Sierra Club appears to be more interested in mpg than everyone driving a small car. So for instance, they would be for a diesel Chevy Silverado, but against a gasser.
That question doesn't seem to be getting much interest--yet I submit it's a worthy one.
Like Dieselone says "Obviously that's not an easy question to answer", but it's one that has to be addressed one way or the other if the UAW hopes to survive!!
Here's a few (but by no means all) possibilities which might get some dialog going;
(1) A moratorium on strikes or lockouts for...say 5 years.
(2) Negotiate longer terms for collective agreements.
(3) Allow compensation plans to change to more 'merit based' structure.
(4) Review and eliminate obsolete or historical work rules which add no value, or just don't make sense.
(4) Allow multiskilling programs for greater workforce flexibility and workshare programs.
(5) Independent/non partisan grievance procedures to deal more effectively with frivolous complaints.
(6) Education and training for membership to better understand issues affecting the business.( example...strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats)
Yeah---that too. Altho' whatever is taught shouldn't be just corporate or union propaganda--it has to be 'real world' and relevant.
The UAW is under threat--big time---and it now has no choice but to get creative in a hurry.
For Rocky: In spite of your barbs and inferences, no, I'm not a Toyota employee or any sort of fan of same. ( Au Contraire, I just took delivery of an 08 Silverado, in fact!!)
And this forum isn't just a place to rant about GM either.
You've completely overlooked Ford, Chrysler, and a huge host of smaller supplier firms which are also UAW shops---all who have a stake in this kind of discussion.
There's a whole lot more at issue here than what you want eveyone to think about the General!
So in spite of your subtle hints, I'll stick around for a little longer, thanks.
I am sorry to all you UAW supporters for saying this but...
If the starting average salary for college graduates with bachelor degrees is around $40k then I don't see why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma's starting salary should be higher than $40k.
Simple as that.
Well I'm sorry to say this but some of the dumbest idiots I know have MBA's and they shouldn't be in charge of clean up at McDonalds, let alone help run a company. I will put my UAW father up against most bachelors degree which is nothing more than a glorified H.S. Diploma, which for many in my generation mommy and daddy paid for !!!! That comment is plain ridiculous.Just because somebody has a McDegree, does not make them a better worker, smarter, more valuable !!!! :confuse:
For Rocky: In spite of your barbs and inferences, no, I'm not a Toyota employee or any sort of fan of same. ( Au Contraire, I just took delivery of an 08 Silverado, in fact!!)
That does surprise me !!!!
And this forum isn't just a place to rant about GM either.
I agree. However it seems GM's UAW employees always get dragged into the discussion.
There's a whole lot more at issue here than what you want eveyone to think about the General!
Well if some of us would get past the propaganda, and pot shots at union labor perhaps a intellegent, constructive, conversation could take place.
So in spite of your subtle hints, I'll stick around for a little longer, thanks.
Earlier today you were making subtle hints to shut the forum down and now you want to participate as long as it's on a slanted bases. :confuse:
Rockylee has specific exceptions to the generally accepted fact that degrees should be honored more than diplomas. Think of it as comparing commissioned officers with the enlisted personnel.
Those of us who have our degrees know what we did and what it took to earn them while those without know what they didn't do to be where they are at this time.
Yes, there are exceptions, however, "Knowlege is Power".
Knowledge is power which I agree with but most of the classes students take for their major does not apply and is short-term memory. Somebody taking a history class for a marketing degree will not be able to recite what they learned a year later.
However, my father could walk into Delphi, tomorrow and set up, fix, the machinery from the years of experience and not miss a beat !!!!
Those of us who have our degrees know what we did and what it took to earn them while those without know what they didn't do to be where they are at this time.
Couldn't say it better myself. Bravo!
What's funny to me is that sometimes people who are in less desirable situations due to not have advance degrees actually bash the value of college diplomas. Personally that's a concept I have a hard time to swallow.
Let's say John went to a 4-year college, majored in history (one of the "worthless" degrees in some people's eyes) and got a job as a teacher in a local middle school. If John ends up making $40k a year starting please tell me why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma should have a higher starting salary than John does.
Rocky--please, what is so compelling about remaining in left field?!!
First, I've talked about my owning a GM vehicle several times--a Silverado every two years for over 30 years!!. Where were you?
Secondly, not only do GM UAW employees repeatedly get dragged in (not quite true Rocky!), but I seem to recall a TON of lobbying for "those great GM products" from someone with the same username as yours!
Thirdly, Glad to see you're in favor of getting creative about what the UAW could do for itself. The door's open, so let's hear what you think!
Lastly, I wasn't "making subtle hints to shut this forum down". NO WAY!! I was suggesting we move away from the incessant blame game and talk about things that might help the situation. Frankly, I never do "subtle"---you must know that by now!
PS. I have an MBA by the way. Does that mean I couldn't hold a job at the local Chrysler Assembly plant? Darn!!
But someone can receive minimal training and with a manual in their pocket fix the equipment.
You cannot give someone minimal training and give them a manual and expect them to change a business model.
It's the same idea that a trash collector has more value immediately than a doctor. But while the doctor can always be a trash collector, the trash collector cannot always be a doctor.
It is a ridiculous position to suggest that degree educated people are less able to work a manual job than someone without. They may be less willing but not less able.
Let's say John went to a 4-year college, majored in history (one of the "worthless" degrees in some people's eyes) and got a job as a teacher in a local middle school. If John ends up making $40k a year starting please tell me why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma should have a higher starting salary than John does.
I ask the question of why should he (John) make more ? Is John, more valuable than the UAW worker like my father ??? Does John, really work hard ??? The UAW, worker not only has mental work but also in many cases hard physical labor standing hours at a time. One could say John, is over-paid considering being a school teacher is like having part-time job with all the time off and their hours.
But while the doctor can always be a trash collector, the trash collector cannot always be a doctor.
Exactly.
And why's that a job which can easily be replaced by machines (UAW line worker) should be paid more than a job that can't (let's say a middle school history teacher)?
Comments
Like I've said many times over and over I understand what the market is doing but just because that is reality and it is happening like so does not mean I have to clap my hands and support the agenda of the elites. The union folks had to comply with the free market conditions and as a result are making far less. I've linked to many articles over the last year what the new UAW workers are making compared to the older vets and it's about half as much. With all these union folks losing their jobs and disposable income all I can say things are going to get far worst for the economy. :sick:
Have you sold any policies yet???
I have not had the oppertunity marsha7. They are to busy sticking me with more and more sales presentations. I trained with co-workers for a couple hours 11-2 and set appointments for 7 hours Wednesday. Was suppose to be a meeting but that was canceled because my big boss wasn't done with his holidays. You know I'm not very happy and probably going to bail. I have a lead from a long time friend of the family who works for a insurance company and she told my mom if this company doesn't work out for Rocky, send him over here. She couldn't believe the sales pitch we had to memorize. Guys imagine trying to recite over a dozen pages of information and it has to flow smoothly. You get recorded on camera and until you can deliver it smoothly you are banned from going out in the field. I have a couple of co-workers out of the Lansing, office whom have been there two and half weeks longer than I who are yet to make anything. So it's not just Rocky, who is having issues. I also just today tipped my hat back into autosales. My trainer right now is trying to schedule me interviews for early next week and will hear from him today on times.
I also have a cousin who is starting a upper management job for a medical supply company and he told me he's going to hire me maybe by the ned of next month if everything goesas planned. So perhaps something finally will go career wise right for me. I'm getting frusterated, and am tired of working for free and being lied too.
Worker problems, by their sheer numbers, are much larger than mgmt problems, but the your point about the suits is valid...
I don't know what you are baseing that point on ???? Lots of non-union shops have left for China, closed up, or moved south of the border to exploit slave labor. I read a article the other day one of you posted here on edmunds showing that illegal aliens are having better luck gaining employment in Mexico, than here because they have more jobs available. The rate of illegal alien parents with american born Mexicans applying for Mexico citizenship is at all time high. :surprise: That my friend should tell you something shouldn't it ????
-Rocky
-Rocky
They use to make very high quality stuff and now it's shoddy Chinese made
GE still makes very high quality stuff. GE builds the biggest and best jet engines in the world. They bought 993 companies while Welch was CEO. They are the largest supplier of massive wind generators. They build too many things to list. So you are making a statement that cannot be backed up. I am sure many of their companies are union.
Now here is where I made an assumption...if your company had inroads with the union, any union, would you not be considered as an "approved" seller???...and, wouldn't that lead to a bias in your favor for better sales, since anything "approved" for sale to union members would be looked upon differently that if I walked up and tried to sell something???
I am not implying that you didn't have to work hard, but aren't the skids already greased in your favor BECAUSE you were approved to sell to union members???...
Did you actually have to memorize pages of script, without variation, or did you have to learn the company's products backward and forward, similar to a new employee working at a restaurant must learn the menu options so almost any question can be answered...
With Xmas just ending, and consumers tapped out, is this the best time to go into car sales in Lansing, with sub-zero temps and snow???
As far as GE, goes I do have favorable opinions of the company. As I have said many times before GE, is the largest and most powerful corporation in the world.
-Rocky
I technically would sell life (WL &Term) and accident. I have a state of Michigan, life and health insurance license. The focus of our company is to labor unions and associations.
Now here is where I made an assumption...if your company had inroads with the union, any union, would you not be considered as an "approved" seller???...and, wouldn't that lead to a bias in your favor for better sales, since anything "approved" for sale to union members would be looked upon differently that if I walked up and tried to sell something???
That would be correct and since I know how many of them think compared to Joe Blow, who's never been around unions at all. One would think they would want to bend over backwards to keep me around. I do have friends and family in leadership positions in unions. The unions look over our stuff and it is indeed very good insurance. We mainly focus on "gaps" that union employees don't have covered.
I am not implying that you didn't have to work hard, but aren't the skids already greased in your favor BECAUSE you were approved to sell to union members???...
Well any licensed producer can sell to union members but the unions like the fact that our company is "technically" a 100% wall to wall unionized company. I would say more but I'm best to keep my lips shut for now.
Did you actually have to memorize pages of script, without variation, or did you have to learn the company's products backward and forward, similar to a new employee working at a restaurant must learn the menu options so almost any question can be answered...
It's a script without variation. The sad thing is Marsha7, it is poorly written and simple spelling and sentence errors make things tougher. This script was supposably written by a marketing major but I beginning to think it might of been written by somebody dumber than a 2nd grader. No pun intended to 2nd graders. I'm not the only person who thinks like that. I did it in front of others the other day and boy do I sound like a darn Robot. We have several rebutals scripts we have to memorize and a couple of them I find very insulting. I tested it rebutals on family members and some told me if somebody talked to them like that they wouldshow them the door. :surprise:
With Xmas just ending, and consumers tapped out, is this the best time to go into car sales in Lansing, with sub-zero temps and snow???
Well the first of the year is when a lot of dealerships like to hire so their newby salesman will be prepared when the spring time rush hits. I haven't bailed yet as I'm not going to quit until I get another job. However, I will admit I am looking pretty hard once again for something more stable and less focused on sales pitchs and more on the needs of the customer. If you give somebody a long, dragged out sales pitch, union or not they are going to be very skeptical. If you could be more yourself and focus on why they need the coverage or not I think would close sales and you could feel authentic doing it. I guess the hardest part for me in sales is I'm a honest person. I don't need to sound like some slick used car salesman. I thought we got rid of those types 20 years ago ? :sick:
-Rocky
If anything there are more now. The competition for the car buyer has never been stronger. Most car sales people I have come across will tell you whatever they think you want to hear about whatever car you are looking at. Most do not know the product as well as an informed Edmund's poster. It seems like a cut throat business with little room for an honest person. Kind of like politicians.
-Rocky
More like, Entitlement Boom (read: Increase in welfare as jobs go bye-bye)
-Rocky
This is your average car in 2030 if we keep on this economic trend.
I hope this wakes some of you up !!! :sick:
-Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
They have always advocated for higher mpg cars, which, in and of itself, is not a problem...but they also continually spewed out that people should not have larger cars, only small cars like Civic, Corolla, Pinto, Vega, and others...
First, they never account for families with more than one child, as tho a family of five will easily fit in a tiny car...
BUT, most of all, they ignore crash results of small cars hitting larger cars or trucks or stationary objects like trees, guard rails, etc.
The death rate in small cars is much higher in collisions where the larger vehicle simply offered more protection because you were surrounded by more car...
Basically, the Sierras and those like them were willing to increase the death rate simply to save a few gallons of gas...
For that alone, I have no respect for them at all...
-Rocky
What impact will that have on the UAW plants in the US?
Will the UAW lose even more of our jobs in the US and Canada to other countries?
Will the need for more fuel efficient vehicles, perhaps smaller but likely different
than we have now, allow for new plants to be built in the US with UAW workers? OR will the new plants all be essentially the foreign companies with US plants employing nonUAW workers at lower and lower real wages?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
Lemko, here's the UAW's toughest competition to date !!!
Tata unveils world's cheapest car
$2,500 tinament that will probably be sold at Wal~Mart. :sick:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080110/ap_on_bi_ge/india_ultracheap_car
When everybody loses their good jobs the above tin can will be what average folks can afford. The fuel economy numbers are horrible. :surprise:
-Rocky
Not a whole lot more can be said which hasn't already been said many times.
It seems this forum is morphing into mostly "badmouth the foreign carmakers"
Personally, I would like to see discussion on "What can/must the UAW itself do to help stop the bleeding?"
The reason I ask that question is primarily because what has transpired so far seems focussed on "what others need to do for the UAW ---Fed/State governments, Politicians, Management, Car Buyers, etc".
Historically, unions like the UAW tend to point to others as the authors of their misfortunes, but in reality, the unions themselves are part of the equation whether they like it or not.
So let's hear some ideas--and maybe somebody will listen?
(And please...let's hear some new and creative suggestions, and don't just trot out old platitudes about "we've already done all we can do--it's those darn offshore carmakers/the Govt./Management--yada, yada, yada.!")
Silverfox, what more can the UAW, do ???? They slashed their pay and benefits more than half and you ask what can the UAW, do ??? Now it's time for Fed/State government, politicians, management, to step up to the plate. With GM, we are seeing car buyers step up because of the good product !!!!
The foreign car makers get an occassional negative remark because they are non-union, play on the american as apple pie theme, and try to protray a image that doesn't fit our reality.
I know you are a toyota fan boy or a employee of toyota and dislike unions very much. Hey that's fine but if you don't like the discussion you can click it off your watch list. Their are plenty of discussions I choose not to follow or post in and no I'm not saying you are not welcome here because you are.
I've watched some of our best topics get turned into "read only's" because a select few people (I won't mention names) who disliked the topic because it didn't fit their agenda.
So let's continue on please......
-Rocky
They could try to organize the Chinese automakers, but if the UAW can't even pick off the low-hanging fruit at home I don't think they'd have much luck in the PRC.
Your coming out with guns blazing isn't going to end the issue, it's only going to make it worse--not just for you but for others too!
It's exactly that kind of confrontational culture that got the UAW into trouble in the first place.
There's a whole lot more the UAW can do that needn't involve pay/benefit cuts.
All I'm asking is to examine the possibilities--and there are many if you just open up your mind!
So put your guns away and try to be constructive for once!
Since we generally discuss GM, I'll stick with them. GM needs to sell vehicles at a profit in enough numbers to support their business model, or the model has to change, or GM goes bankrupt. No politician will change the fact that GM has built to many uncompetitive vehicles over the past several decades and still is (seems to be changing fast). I know the GM faithful on this board will flame me, but I've driven enough GM vehicles over the years to plainly see why GM has continued to lose market share. Thankfully most of the GM turds I've driven have been retired, but a few still remain. The new Malibu and CTS are the first two cars from GM that I could see myself buying.
I don't know what the UAW can do to help GM do this other than allow flexibility to promote productivity, but that goes against what the UAW is for, maximizing membership/retaining jobs. OTOH, GM has been poorly managed and only until recently does it look like they may have a winning game plan, but still a long way to go and past mistakes have dug them a huge hole.
Seems many have the labor/business relationship backwards. Business doesn't exist merely for the benefit of an employee. I know many business owners not one of them created their business so they could create jobs. They did because they had a business plan to make more money while working for themselves. If they could hire employees to help them MAKE MORE MONEY then great.
Those who understand this concept are usually successful whether they are self employed or not. IMO, those who go to work thinking the company owes them usually are dead weight and need union to protect them.
I knew a guy who was a press operator at a GM plant in Ontario, Ohio. All he did was brag about how much money he made while he and a few of his co-workers got paid o/t while getting drunk on the job. I'm not kidding and this was about 6 years ago. I have no doubt that this is not the norm, but the mere fact that someone can drink on the job w/o worrying about getting canned is a serious problem.
Hell, my FIL got a DUI back in the 70's driving home after an evening shift at the steel mill he worked 32 years at. A crane operator brought in a cooler full of beer and they drank the whole shift on new years eve. These are the types of activities that give unions a bad wrap.
Are you saying the existing UAW members took a 50% cut in pay and benefits as a result of these most recent Contracts with the Big 3?
Or do you mean new hires will come in at lower wages and fewer benefits? There is a huge difference. I am not saying making the new hire wages very low is good. It does give the Big 3 a chance to compete. If it is not a living wage people will not take the jobs. You need to take a look around. 50% of US families have a household income below $30k per year. You are in the top of the middle class with $65k per year income.
Oh my goodness. Is that right? I'm really surprised.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If the starting average salary for college graduates with bachelor degrees is around $40k then I don't see why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma's starting salary should be higher than $40k.
Simple as that.
Oh my goodness. Is that right? I'm really surprised.
Depending on the source, it seems the middle class is defined as household income between $25k-$99k. Anymore I'd think a family of 4 with an income under $50k would be a struggle.
Rock, $65k would put you in the higher middle. Most numbers I've seen put the median household income around $48k.
link title
Safest vehicles according to them:
AUDI A3
BMW X3
BMW X5
HONDA ACCORD
HONDA ELEMENT
HONDA ODYSSEY
HYUNDAI VERACRUZ
SATURN VUE
SUBARU IMPREZA
TOYOTA HIGHLANDER
TOYOTA TUNDRA
The only large vehicles on that list are Tundra and Odyssey.
On the other hand death rates are higher in smaller vehicles.
So, you have fewer accidents in smaller vehicles but they are more lethal.
FWIW- the Civic actually gets a 'Gold' standard for safety in the small car sector.
Also, the Sierra Club appears to be more interested in mpg than everyone driving a small car. So for instance, they would be for a diesel Chevy Silverado, but against a gasser.
Like Dieselone says "Obviously that's not an easy question to answer", but it's one that has to be addressed one way or the other if the UAW hopes to survive!!
Here's a few (but by no means all) possibilities which might get some dialog going;
(1) A moratorium on strikes or lockouts for...say 5 years.
(2) Negotiate longer terms for collective agreements.
(3) Allow compensation plans to change to more 'merit based' structure.
(4) Review and eliminate obsolete or historical work rules which add no value, or just don't make sense.
(4) Allow multiskilling programs for greater workforce flexibility and workshare programs.
(5) Independent/non partisan grievance procedures to deal more effectively with frivolous complaints.
(6) Education and training for membership to better understand issues affecting the business.( example...strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats)
How's that for starters?
Plus on how the real world works...
Yeah---that too.
Altho' whatever is taught shouldn't be just corporate or union propaganda--it has to be 'real world' and relevant.
The UAW is under threat--big time---and it now has no choice but to get creative in a hurry.
For Rocky:
In spite of your barbs and inferences, no, I'm not a Toyota employee or any sort of fan of same. ( Au Contraire, I just took delivery of an 08 Silverado, in fact!!)
And this forum isn't just a place to rant about GM either.
You've completely overlooked Ford, Chrysler, and a huge host of smaller supplier firms which are also UAW shops---all who have a stake in this kind of discussion.
There's a whole lot more at issue here than what you want eveyone to think about the General!
So in spite of your subtle hints, I'll stick around for a little longer, thanks.
If the starting average salary for college graduates with bachelor degrees is around $40k then I don't see why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma's starting salary should be higher than $40k.
Simple as that.
Well I'm sorry to say this but some of the dumbest idiots I know have MBA's and they shouldn't be in charge of clean up at McDonalds, let alone help run a company. I will put my UAW father up against most bachelors degree which is nothing more than a glorified H.S. Diploma, which for many in my generation mommy and daddy paid for !!!!
-Rocky
In spite of your barbs and inferences, no, I'm not a Toyota employee or any sort of fan of same. ( Au Contraire, I just took delivery of an 08 Silverado, in fact!!)
That does surprise me !!!!
And this forum isn't just a place to rant about GM either.
I agree. However it seems GM's UAW employees always get dragged into the discussion.
There's a whole lot more at issue here than what you want eveyone to think about the General!
Well if some of us would get past the propaganda, and pot shots at union labor perhaps a intellegent, constructive, conversation could take place.
So in spite of your subtle hints, I'll stick around for a little longer, thanks.
Earlier today you were making subtle hints to shut the forum down and now you want to participate as long as it's on a slanted bases. :confuse:
-Rocky
Those of us who have our degrees know what we did and what it took to earn them while those without know what they didn't do to be where they are at this time.
Yes, there are exceptions, however, "Knowlege is Power".
However, my father could walk into Delphi, tomorrow and set up, fix, the machinery from the years of experience and not miss a beat !!!!
-Rocky
Couldn't say it better myself. Bravo!
What's funny to me is that sometimes people who are in less desirable situations due to not have advance degrees actually bash the value of college diplomas. Personally that's a concept I have a hard time to swallow.
Let's say John went to a 4-year college, majored in history (one of the "worthless" degrees in some people's eyes) and got a job as a teacher in a local middle school. If John ends up making $40k a year starting please tell me why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma should have a higher starting salary than John does.
First, I've talked about my owning a GM vehicle several times--a Silverado every two years for over 30 years!!. Where were you?
Secondly, not only do GM UAW employees repeatedly get dragged in (not quite true Rocky!), but I seem to recall a TON of lobbying for "those great GM products" from someone with the same username as yours!
Thirdly, Glad to see you're in favor of getting creative about what the UAW could do for itself. The door's open, so let's hear what you think!
Lastly, I wasn't "making subtle hints to shut this forum down". NO WAY!!
I was suggesting we move away from the incessant blame game and talk about things that might help the situation.
Frankly, I never do "subtle"---you must know that by now!
PS. I have an MBA by the way. Does that mean I couldn't hold a job at the local Chrysler Assembly plant? Darn!!
But someone can receive minimal training and with a manual in their pocket fix the equipment.
You cannot give someone minimal training and give them a manual and expect them to change a business model.
It's the same idea that a trash collector has more value immediately than a doctor. But while the doctor can always be a trash collector, the trash collector cannot always be a doctor.
It is a ridiculous position to suggest that degree educated people are less able to work a manual job than someone without. They may be less willing but not less able.
I ask the question of why should he (John) make more ? Is John, more valuable than the UAW worker like my father ??? Does John, really work hard ??? The UAW, worker not only has mental work but also in many cases hard physical labor standing hours at a time. One could say John, is over-paid considering being a school teacher is like having part-time job with all the time off and their hours.
-Rocky
Exactly.
And why's that a job which can easily be replaced by machines (UAW line worker) should be paid more than a job that can't (let's say a middle school history teacher)?