Let's say John went to a 4-year college, majored in history (one of the "worthless" degrees in some people's eyes) and got a job as a teacher in a local middle school. If John ends up making $40k a year starting please tell me why a UAW line worker with a high school diploma should have a higher starting salary than John does.
OK lou, let's do the math:
"John" works 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 37 weeks (185 school days/5=37) "Joe" puts in 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 50 weeks (assuming he starts off at 2 wks paid vaca.). Now, I have a hard time believing new hires "START" at $65k per yr,(here at Verizon, where both I and my wife earn $69k per yr w/ just a diploma, the starting salary is about $21,500) so if both have tenure to get that salary, then "JOHN" makes the same salary as "Joe", yet puts in ONLY 56% of the hours that "Joe" does (30hrs/wk*37 wks=1110 hrs, 40 hrs/wk*50 wks=2000 hrs) THERE is your premium for your BS in history.
Also, I believe the income for middle class was stated as HOUSEHOLD, not INDIVIDUAL. With 2 incomes, it becomes easier to hit the mark than with 1
Rocky--please, what is so compelling about remaining in left field?!!
Well I'm not the one who has slammed and classified factory jobs as done by just dumb people.
First, I've talked about my owning a GM vehicle several times--a Silverado every two years for over 30 years!!. Where were you?
Well I'm not the only one who wasn't aware and I'll leave it at that !!!!
Secondly, not only do GM UAW employees repeatedly get dragged in (not quite true Rocky!), but I seem to recall a TON of lobbying for "those great GM products" from someone with the same username as yours!
Yes, I do in the GM forums "Market News & Support" forums. If it's UAW connected I will post it here.
Thirdly, Glad to see you're in favor of getting creative about what the UAW could do for itself. The door's open, so let's hear what you think!
Well maybe have a UAW committee that has to sign off on the product that they are going to build so automobiles like Jeep Commander, Lincoln Blackwoods, don't get built !!! See non-GMers !!! :P
Lastly, I wasn't "making subtle hints to shut this forum down". NO WAY!! I was suggesting we move away from the incessant blame game and talk about things that might help the situation. Frankly, I never do "subtle"---you must know that by now!
Well with me you don't beat around the bush, that's for sure !!! :surprise:
PS. I have an MBA by the way. Does that mean I couldn't hold a job at the local Chrysler Assembly plant? Darn!!
No, but their are certain jobs a person has to be very mechanically inclined to perform. Hey, I'm not mechanically inclined and I will admit it !!!
my father could walk into Delphi, tomorrow and set up, fix, the machinery from the years of experience and not miss a beat !!!!
How does that relate to reality. The reality is he is retired and Delphi is still there. I am retired and the Phones, Cellular and Internet in my office is still chugging away. No one is indispensable. We can all be replaced. The reality is many jobs are made easier today by automation. The Union has fought against automation for as long as I can remember. Guess what they are losing the battle. Companies that cannot be profitable here die or go where they can. The first migration was to the south in the 1960s and 70s. The last 30 years it was to Canada, Mexico, Japan and China.
Our standard of living is in jeopardy. I don't see any solution that will work.
I have no degree from college. Those that used the GI bill or begged or borrowed to get a college degree deserve a higher wage than someone that just goes to work in a factory after HS. They should also be judged by their performance on the job. The Union people should also be evaluated and dumped if they do not perform to the standard. Why do you think Chrysler is offering buyouts? They want to get rid of the old dead wood in the workforce. If they did not believe they could hire someone out of HS to do the job for less money they would not be offering those packages.
And why's that a job which can easily be replaced by machines (UAW line worker) should be paid more than a job that can't (let's say a middle school history teacher)?
Do you want to tell me that (in theory) a middle school history teacher couldn't be replaced by a college grad in India (via teleconference) making $400/mo, with a $10/hr teacher's aid in classroom???? Do we not do this already with technical assistance for the products we purchase, even if they are highly technical products???
Your math assume that work should be judged only by hours put in.
The 'value' of work is not simply hours, in that case folks in the restaurant business would all be millionaires (and deserve it).
The 'value' of work is defined by many factors: 1. Demand for your skill set (following the example- teachers are in short supply while assembly workers are not). 2. Level of training required to perform the job. Rocket scientists are not in wide demand, however their skill set is very difficult to acquire. 3. Experience. Time on the job adds to and affects the 'value'.
To simply state that because Joe works more hours in a year than John and therefore should be paid more ignores all the factors that are pushing the UAW to reform.
FWIW, I support union labor and believe that it is the only way to counterbalance the push for profit.
I don't see how we can maintain a manufacturing base in this country (which we need) without having some kind of limits on 'free' trade. Since those countries which are now the source of manufacturing don't make any effort to provide living wages or to elevate their working populations into some kind of middle class level of affluence, it is not free trade for a company/ union which does support those goals to be in direct competition.
Enforce a decent standard of work environment and income on the factories now taking away US manufacturing and the resultant cost of goods would be more like free trade.
It is understood that teachers spend hours at nite planning lessons, correcting papers, etc. But even if you gave them 2 hrs a nite spent on this (on top of the time IN school given to planning), you still can't make up 950 hrs in 37 weeks. My point is THAT is the premium given to the teacher over an assembly worker for their degree.
I don't see how we can maintain a manufacturing base in this country (which we need) without having some kind of limits on 'free' trade. Since those countries which are now the source of manufacturing don't make any effort to provide living wages or to elevate their working populations into some kind of middle class level of affluence, it is not free trade for a company/ union which does support those goals to be in direct competition.
I agree. Not only that, if we were to move a lot of the manufacuring back here, we could control the safety and emissions on the plants that our products are made in. THAT ALONE could make up the difference in pollutants that we wouldn't need (although we should strive for) the higher CAFE regulations. I think I read that auto pollution accounts for only 20% of the CO2 emissions here.
Well I'm sorry to say this but some of the dumbest idiots I know have MBA's and they shouldn't be in charge of clean up at McDonalds, let alone help run a company. I will put my UAW father up against most bachelors degree which is nothing more than a glorified H.S. Diploma, which for many in my generation mommy and daddy paid for !!!! That comment is plain ridiculous.Just because somebody has a McDegree, does not make them a better worker, smarter, more valuable !!!! :confuse:
Sorry you feel that way Rock, but how many college classes have you taken? Courses in history and sociology help develop a well rounded person and are only a small part of a degree program (unless of course, that is your major). So I'm confident you are once again ranting about something you know little about.
That comment is plain ridiculous.Just because somebody has a McDegree, does not make them a better worker, smarter, more valuable !!!! :confuse:
A degree doesn't automatically mean some ones smarter, or will work harder. But the stats prove it makes someone more valuable to the economy. You may not like it but that's the facts. If not, then why do so many employers demand it.
Seems you have a problem with people who's parents felt it was important to acquire an education and paid for it. Most students graduate with loans, so once again your off base. And so what if they did. The degree is not worth any more or any less based on how it was paid for.
Thanks to the degree my wife and I have earned we have taken advantage of opportunities that would never been possible without them and we have a lifestyle that would be impossible on avg. non-degree pay or UAW wages. Not to mention how much easier it is to find a job. Due to my wife's job we've moved to several states over the past 6 years. I've never had a problem finding a job. As a matter of fact, I start a new job on Monday (my degree and work experience met the requirements) and I sent out 2 resumes in late Nov.
It doesn't matter what you think work experience at a GM or Delphi plant is worth. What matters is what the market says it's worth and willing to pay. Bottomline, my personal experience and well known stats show that most degrees pay for themselves with the improved opportunities it presents.
But someone can receive minimal training and with a manual in their pocket fix the equipment.
Obviously you have never been inside some of these plants like I have. If you get a chance please go inside a Delphi, plant and ask the job setter to set up the line or participate in fixing the machines !!!
You cannot give someone minimal training and give them a manual and expect them to change a business model.
You see it everyday !!!
It's the same idea that a trash collector has more value immediately than a doctor. But while the doctor can always be a trash collector, the trash collector cannot always be a doctor.
Well the trash collector can go to college and obtain a Ph.D You are comparing apples and oranges. A doctor is not the same as a cookie cutter MBA !!!
It is a ridiculous position to suggest that degree educated people are less able to work a manual job than someone without. They may be less willing but not less able.
I know many degree people that can't even check their oil, let alone run high-tech machinery in a factory.
You are a perfect example gagrice. You were a union worker who was paid quite a bit of dough for your knowledge and expertise. You may not of had a degree but you had the training and skills that a college graduate like most have not worked anywhere of substance. Why should they start out making more money than you as a union employee not having done anything outside of a classroom ???
I will put a higher price tag on your knowledge and skills than Jack, who just got a cookie cutter MBA.
1. A 20-year UAW line veteran who's specialized in installing dashboard and can probably do it in his sleep, or
2. A guy with an engineering degree who spent 2 years as a system integrator, 4 years as a field engineer and another 4 years as a system designer (total of 10 years).
I think the answer is obvious.
Also, MBA is for cookie cutters?
I strongly challenge anyone who makes that comment to take the GMAT first, if you scored in the 80th percentile with a minimum amount of study time I'll then shut the heck up. I am currently studying for it and it ain't a walk in the park.
You are a perfect example gagrice. You were a union worker who was paid quite a bit of dough for your knowledge and expertise. You may not of had a degree but you had the training and skills that a college graduate like most have not worked anywhere of substance. Why should they start out making more money than you as a union employee not having done anything outside of a classroom ???
I will put a higher price tag on your knowledge and skills than Jack, who just got a cookie cutter MBA.
FWIW, I support union labor and believe that it is the only way to counterbalance the push for profit.
I don't see how we can maintain a manufacturing base in this country (which we need) without having some kind of limits on 'free' trade. Since those countries which are now the source of manufacturing don't make any effort to provide living wages or to elevate their working populations into some kind of middle class level of affluence, it is not free trade for a company/ union which does support those goals to be in direct competition.
Enforce a decent standard of work environment and income on the factories now taking away US manufacturing and the resultant cost of goods would be more like free trade.
Holycow, that came out of no where !!! We are getting somewhere now !!!
A doctor is not the same as a cookie cutter MBA !!!
I'm going to hazard a guess you neither have an MBA nor have tried to get one. They aren't cookie cutter (whatever that means) and they are expensive to attain (therefore require desire).
You cannot give someone minimal training and give them a manual and expect them to change a business model.
You see it everyday !!! You see what every day? Do you think Steve Jobs/ Bill Gates/ Robert Wegman/ fill in business leader of choice are just fly-by-night guys who were gifted an MBA? Equally, do you think that any of them could have done it with a HS diploma?
I don't disagree with you that many people who work in manual jobs are skilled and smart. The issue is the value that there work is given as defined by the labor market.
If my company made an ability to fix complex equipment a high level requirement for an executive, I would be worried. As it is an MBA is a requirement which makes sense for a decision maker who should understand the market, trends, technology, people development, HR requirements, accounting and on and on.
I agree. Not only that, if we were to move a lot of the manufacuring back here, we could control the safety and emissions on the plants that our products are made in. THAT ALONE could make up the difference in pollutants that we wouldn't need (although we should strive for) the higher CAFE regulations. I think I read that auto pollution accounts for only 20% of the CO2 emissions here.
Good point !!!! We also might just lower our national security risk.
The damage is already done. The middle class is mortally wounded. A serf and elite society is approaching. There is no concern about living wages and environmental conditions in the areas where these jobs have been sent. It's all about a few more dollars, short term.
The kicker is that others will not be raised to true affluence. There will be gains for many (who can really only go up), but not permanent. The masses of the planet are headed for a condition of global serfdom. Then there will be less worry among the entitlement-minded elite about unions, when people are working so hard to merely survive that they won't have the ability to organize. Globalization goes hand in hand with a socio-economic chasm of third world proportions.
Sorry you feel that way Rock, but how many college classes have you taken? Courses in history and sociology help develop a well rounded person and are only a small part of a degree program (unless of course, that is your major). So I'm confident you are once again ranting about something you know little about.
One question: If you are going for a degree, say in accounting, are classes in history or sociology (courses that would be deemed electives, I assume) any more relevant to accounting than taking classes in automotive repair, or an EMT course, or a fire academy????? I say this because it was my experience that, inquiring about what it would take to get a BS in accounting, I took my transcript to a local college (I have an Associates degree in automotive technology). When they said they would only accept my sociology and public speaking classes, I asked why they wouldn't accept the auto classes that I spent 3 hrs a day, 5 days a week, for 18 straight months in place of some of those "electives" that had nothing to do with the science of accounting, thus allowing me more time to study the core curriculum they said that those classes weren't accredited or something. I say it sounded to me like a big money grab, just to get me to spend more money on more classes, all to make me "a more rounded person". Who the hell are they to judge what rounds me out more (ok,ok, at 5'6", 225lbs, I can't get much more rounded out :P )
You have to uncouple the desire to do right by ALL the working people of this country with the us-against-them stuff. Hate to say it, but that's the kind of thinking that pushed unions and owners into a conflict approach.
It is possible (I would say desirable) to be pro-education, pro-union and pro-business. Just maybe not pro-'free' trade. I should say uncontrolled free trade.
It is in all our interests for the UAW to be strong, but they can only be strong if the companies they work for are strong also.
I took my transcript to a local college (I have an Associates degree in automotive technology). When they said they would only accept my sociology and public speaking classes, I asked why they wouldn't accept the auto classes that I spent 3 hrs a day, 5 days a week, for 18 straight months in place of some of those "electives" that had nothing to do with the science of accounting,
That sucks I know. I transferred schools while while in college and lost a few credits. I'd think your previous course work should count for something. Accredited is a must. If your program didn't qualify (right or wrong) no college/university will accept it.
Sorry you feel that way Rock, but how many college classes have you taken? Courses in history and sociology help develop a well rounded person and are only a small part of a degree program (unless of course, that is your major). So I'm confident you are once again ranting about something you know little about.
Let's see !!! I have taken a semester's worth of college Math and English in 97'
I have also taken 12 weeks of NRC Armed Security Officer Classes (8 to 4) Mon-Fri
I have also taken 14 weeks of Para Military D.O.E. Security Police Officer Classes (7 to 4) Mon-Fri which is elgible for college credit torwards a criminal justice degree.
I did a weeks worth of Fork Lift Training (Twice) and obtained my license from a accredited college KVCC.Sit-down Stand-up, Cherry Picker. (1 week)
I did a week worth of Behavioral Based Safety. I've had multiple Hazmat training courses both industrial and for my CDL. Kaizen, Lean Manufactoring, Six-Sigma, Radiation Safety, X-Ray machine training, Nuclear Explosives, Ergonomics, Microsoft Works, Word, PC, Fax, Copier, typewriter, Firearms-Glock-17, M-4, AR-15, Beretta tactical 12 guage, 249 SAW, MK-19, M203 40mm Grenade Launcher, Armory, Armored Humvee training, Counter Intellegence, Cyber Security, Metal Detector, Explosive Detectors, Hand Held Metal Detector, Pat-Down search, computer simulated tactical and firearms training, Robotics (Water-Jet) Multiple Presses (punch, brake) Industrial Chemical Training, Spill Team Training, Hand cuffing, Deadly Force, Dairy SOP's, Pharmaceutical SOP's just to name a few but not nearly all !!!! Some I flat out just can't talk about obviously. You are talking about many months and in some cases years worth of training and acquired skills.
CDL-B (3 weeks)
TK Worldwide Inc. "professional automobile sales training school" (1 week 40 hrs)
State of Michigan-Life, Accident and Health-Resident Producer (1 week 40hrs)
So yeah compared to the amount of courses I've done and acquired knowledge OJT some college MBA's while a very respectable accomplishment can be looked at as to parrot Fintail, "cookie cutter" in comparison. I've actually applied all that I've learned in the classroom on the job !!! I think that is a huge difference. Going college taking worthless classes learning the subjects one semester and forgetting most of it the next is pointless and is why the european education system is superior to ours IMHO !!!
diesel, am I educated enough to rant or does the fact that I don't have a McDegree, not qualify me to comment ????
A degree doesn't automatically mean some ones smarter, or will work harder. But the stats prove it makes someone more valuable to the economy. You may not like it but that's the facts. If not, then why do so many employers demand it.
I think I have a few on here like fintail and lemko, that will say that the silver spooned college suits some of which that run this country put so much emphasis on a degree and not enough on practical proven experience.
Seems you have a problem with people who's parents felt it was important to acquire an education and paid for it. Most students graduate with loans, so once again your off base. And so what if they did. The degree is not worth any more or any less based on how it was paid for.
I have no problem but some think because a guy/gal has a degree we need to automatically throw the red carpet for he or she. How about the union worker who has been improving his skills through OJT ??? He's not worth as much is what you are saying and I disagree is all !!!
Thanks to the degree my wife and I have earned we have taken advantage of opportunities that would never been possible without them and we have a lifestyle that would be impossible on avg. non-degree pay or UAW wages. Not to mention how much easier it is to find a job. Due to my wife's job we've moved to several states over the past 6 years. I've never had a problem finding a job. As a matter of fact, I start a new job on Monday (my degree and work experience met the requirements) and I sent out 2 resumes in late Nov.
Well I respect that and wish you well diesel. I guess I get defensive when people run down union workers when they have no idea how much training people like my father has been through. FYI, Dad was in the Navy, before GM, and was a radio technician.
It doesn't matter what you think work experience at a GM or Delphi plant is worth. What matters is what the market says it's worth and willing to pay. Bottomline, my personal experience and well known stats show that most degrees pay for themselves with the improved opportunities it presents.
Well I'm not sure what your degree is in but if people like Gates, get their way they will expand the visa program for skilled workers and all those white collar jobs pay will be signifacntly lowered asa result of skilled degreed Indians from India, China, South Korea, etc !!!! :sick:
I'm going to hazard a guess you neither have an MBA nor have tried to get one. They aren't cookie cutter (whatever that means) and they are expensive to attain (therefore require desire).
As you will now see above I do not have a MBA.
You see what every day? Do you think Steve Jobs/ Bill Gates/ Robert Wegman/ fill in business leader of choice are just fly-by-night guys who were gifted an MBA? Equally, do you think that any of them could have done it with a HS diploma?
He enrolled at Harvard College in the fall of 1973 intending to get a pre-law degree,[20] but did not have a definite study plan and eventually left without his degree.[21] While at Harvard, he met his future business partner, Steve Ballmer, whom he later appointed as CEO of Microsoft. At the same time, he co-authored and published a paper on algorithms with computer scientist Christos Papadimitriou.[22]
So the fact that Gates, dropped out and from what I can tell has no degree he's just a dummy that built the Microsoft monopoly. :P
I don't disagree with you that many people who work in manual jobs are skilled and smart. The issue is the value that there work is given as defined by the labor market.
OMG, so because some guy in India, can do the MBA's job here in the states for a fraction of the cost then we should lower his pay to India, standards ??? Hell, we can do that with any job when competing against the 3rd world.
If my company made an ability to fix complex equipment a high level requirement for an executive, I would be worried. As it is an MBA is a requirement which makes sense for a decision maker who should understand the market, trends, technology, people development, HR requirements, accounting and on and on.
Or you could hire the H.S. diploma guy who has 15 years relavent proven experience.
UAW shifting jobs from Flint to Springfieldd, Ohio, with Sale of Truck lines. Springfield UAW recently settled after striking. December 23, 2007
Hawkins' statement is in response to Thursday's announcement that General Motors Corp. plans to sell its medium-duty truck production to International Truck and Engine Corp. The move could bring more than 500 jobs to the area.
While company officials will not specifically say those jobs are coming to Springfield, Hawkins and UAW Local 402 officials are confident.
John Eblin, the bargaining chairman, and Charlie Hayden, the president, have confirmed that the contract ratified between the UAW and International promises upwards of 700 jobs to Springfield.
Production of the GMT 560 Series trucks, which includes the Chevy Kodiak and the GMC TopKick, may begin as early as July, Eblin said.
The Flint plant will lose the medium-duty truck production, but gain a product that will be announced in January so no one loses a job.
None of the 530 workers in Flint will move to Springfield; all jobs attached to the deal will go to International UAW workers or be filled by new hires.
"Our people (in Flint) build a great product," Hawkins said. "Now it's up to Springfield to keep that quality going."
OMG, so because some guy in India, can do the MBA's job here in the states for a fraction of the cost then we should lower his pay to India, standards ??? Hell, we can do that with any job when competing against the 3rd world.
Rocky, go to any store in Michigan. Pick up any product and you will find WE ARE competing with the 3rd World countries. I think you are not as aware because the automotive industry is the last to go. And go they will. Detroit CANNOT compete building a $2500 TaTa anymore than Sunbeam USA could compete building a toaster. The only chance for the middle class in the USA is to hope the rest of the World catches up soon. It will have to level out and you and your children will be the ones to sacrifice. You seem to think this is a recent development. It did not start with Reagan. It started right after WW2. We gave special trade agreements with Japan & Germany to rebuild them. By the late 1950s they were sending stuff over here. By the 1970s there was not a car built without foreign parts in it.
Rocky, go to any store in Michigan. Pick up any product and you will find WE ARE competing with the 3rd World countries. I think you are not as aware because the automotive industry is the last to go. And go they will. Detroit CANNOT compete building a $2500 TaTa anymore than Sunbeam USA could compete building a toaster. The only chance for the middle class in the USA is to hope the rest of the World catches up soon. It will have to level out and you and your children will be the ones to sacrifice. You seem to think this is a recent development. It did not start with Reagan. It started right after WW2. We gave special trade agreements with Japan & Germany to rebuild them. By the late 1950s they were sending stuff over here. By the 1970s there was not a car
So you think our government will let us totally collapse before we put in some protectionist clauses ? Perhaps you are going to be right, but our sakes I hope you are wrong.
-Rocky
P.S. That TaTa, wouldn't pass bike crash standards let alone U.S.A. automobile ones. For the immediant future the UAW only has Asia, Korea, Europe, to worry about.
P.S. That TaTa, wouldn't pass bike crash standards let alone U.S.A
True enough. However the only electric vehicle that will carry 4 passengers and can be licensed in most states comes from China. It gets around the crash tests by only have 3 wheels. That means it is legally a motorcycle.
The UAW will be very lucky to get any of the small EV or hybrid cars to build. Just not in the BIG plan. Not to worry as China will challenge the USA for the most cars in just a few years. GM is big over there. They are the biggest in China last I checked.
You are convinced all this alternative energy idea's are going to be manufactored in China. I am still holding out "hope" that much of it will be made here by UAW workers.
-Rocky
P.S. GM, is the biggest player in China, and Buick, of all brands is it's most popular. :surprise:
Rocky: There are some colleges that will honor your resume of courses & after spending a minimum of time taking some more of their required courses they will enable you to have a B.A. in "Life Experiences". One of those colleges is Evergreen State College, Olympia, WA. If you would look around MI, you may find a Liberal Arts College to your advantage.
perhaps it's time to find one of those animated head banging ones,
You've got a point there, but I doubt very much if it would change anything.
It seems forums like this one where total posts reach high numbers, a core poster group settles in and eventually drifts into heated debates having little or nothing to do with the forum topic. (Perhaps because everything that could be said about the 'real' topic has been rehashed too many times?)
Example: What do the current 30 or 40 posts re MBA have to do with the subject?
This MBA discussion became the response to a reasonably valid question a while back.."What could the UAW do itself to help stop the bleeding?"
That is, unless John is a Philadelphia School District teacher. His degree won't be worth as much as his military training. If I were hiring him as a teacher in this district, I'd first ask if he was once a Navy SEAL or in Special Forces and how much combat experience he had. It would also help if John once had experience as a police officer or a correctional officer. The only reason they have "school" in this city is to give the little old ladies a window of opportunity during the week to safely go shopping.
Over in China they don't pay the workers well, worry about their safety, pay much attention to quality control, worry about health care or worry about environmental regulations. All that saves a fierocious amount of money. How the heck can any company anywhere compete with that unless they lower themselves to Chinese standards or consumers wise up?
Example: What do the current 30 or 40 posts re MBA have to do with the subject?
With respect, in my opinion, it refers pretty well to the changes that the UAW need to be open ot in terms of changing their worker/ owner relationship with the big 3.
Perhaps if a few more of the UAW's leadership had MBAs, they would be more effective in positioning their members for success in 2, 5 and 10 years from now.
Shoot, some of those guys with MBAs can't even change their own oil and you're going to truct them with setting up a multimillion-dollar steel press and the die costs tens of thousands of dollars itself?
I'm certified in setting-up plastic blowmolding machines. One dropped wrench and you can ruin a $10K (in 1988 dollars) die. Another slip-up and you can lose something more valuable than a die...like a hand!!! Just the arm that extracts the molded product exerts 25 psi which is like a 200-lb. man standing on your thumbs. The pressure the die exerts will turn your hand into applesauce.
Lemko, it's interesting to note your comments are almost word for word the same comments said about the Europeans 35 years ago, the Japanese 25 years ago, then the Koreans 15 years ago! Then there's the Roman Emperor, Nero, 2000 years ago....well. you know that story!
Oh, you got that right! I took the GMAT and it was a bear!!! To effectively take the GMAT, I think one should first earn his undergraduate business degree and immediately begin studying for the GMAT. I waited over ten years after getting my undergraduate degree, so you can imagine how tough it was.
Perhaps if a few more of the UAW's leadership had MBAs, they would be more effective in positioning their members for success in 2, 5 and 10 years from now.
Good point!! Wonder if some folks here are listening?
Seems to me that the majority of opinion expressed in this forum is a reflection of a fundamental issue North American society faces today.
That fundamental issue has been touched on a few times in this forum, but quickly dismissed by those who choose to ignore (or deny) its existence.
The word is "ENTITLEMENT"
That said, the culture of entitlement I refer to is a hugely pervasive element in our society.... and I'm not referring to it in the union (or UAW) context talked about in this forum.
It's everywhere. we are all 'victims' of this affliction.
We, as a society, have become utterly dependent upon "others" to address our problems (government, lawmakers, public service providers, industry, social service agencies, health care providers...etc.).
We have come to expect that for every problem we incur, the cause..and the solution...lie in someone else's bailiwick.
The UAW---and the entire US economic system for that matter--and its status as a dominant economic engine--is in decline.
The UAW, and our entire generation has already begun to feel the effects of that decline, and it's not going to get better, I'm afraid.
That said, what we point blame at--foreign manufacturers such as Chinese,Japanese, or whatever country's automakers--is wrong.
We have nothing but ourselves to blame--the reality is that each of us is the authors of our own misfortune. That includes you BTW.
It's not the fault of the Japanese, Chinese, Europeans, or whom you choose to pick on, that got us into this dilemma--it's us!
We had choices--they didn't twist anybody's arms to buy their products.
We cannot expect our government to enact protectionist rules to insulate us from the effects of a global economy or succesful developing countries within it.
It is foolish and short sighted to expect Governments to continually shovel gobs of subsidiies to prop up a declining auto industry.
It is economic suicide to expect a publicly owned company to dismiss competitive initiatives to stay alive.
Like the philosophy expressed in the Peanuts cartoon..."We've seen the enemy, and the enemy is us!"
So what are YOU going to do about it besides just crying the blues about those big bad Japanese automakers (who BTW for the past couple of decades have been doing a far better job than our domestic automakers!) ??
The future is in our (yours, mine, and everyone else) hands. Unfortunately I fear there's not enough willingness left in our society to make the changes and some hard sacrifices necessary to fix the problem.
We have grown too comfortable in our self indulgent status quo to take the long hard road we obviously must take to help ourselves.
Comparing any of those to conditions in China is really quite ludicrous. Especially Japan and Europe. I mean, really now.
I don't think anyone can relate anywhere in Europe (or at least the parts not sacrificed to Soviet rule - and even most of those are/were shangri-la compared to China) in 1973 or Japan in 1983 or Korea in 1993.
We, as a society, have become utterly dependent upon "others" to address our problems
You say that like it's a bad thing. I don't know about you, but I like not spending my day gathering firewood, hauling water, or growing corn.
Let's say we're in an agrarian society 200 years ago and I'm good at, say, weaving, I'll spend my day at my loom. If I can't sell the cloth for enough to keep the coal fires burning, maybe I'll join in with my fellow weavers and try to form some kind of mutual assistance society. Maybe we'll call it a guild. Maybe we'll figure out that we can all go in together and give one person all our cloth and she can take it to the market town in the next shire and sell it for more money. And we'll all raise our standard of living.
We'll also deny entry to foreign weavers, only disclose tricks of the trade to fellow guild members, sew up the local raw materials market, prevent new weavers from joining our guild until they've completed a long apprenticeship, boycott the cheap merchants who won't pay us a fair wage and otherwise protect our livelihood.
Then one day we'll vote to call our guild a union.
Then some guy named Sakichi Toyota will invent an automated power loom and put all our skills out to pasture. Fortunately our standard of living was high enough, long enough, for all our kids to get MBAs.
"Comparing any of those to conditions in China is really quite ludicrous"
Not as "ludicrous" as you suggest, or as we are led to believe. Have you visited any of the autoplants in China? I have--as recently as last year---and it's not anywhere nearly as bad as claimed by many here. Don't confuse what's being used as "China" examples (the worst "sweatshop" operations there are usually touted as typical).
Plus, I'm old enough to remember much vitriolic badmouthing against offshore automakers in the 60's, 70's and early 80's! It wasn't pretty!! All too often, owners bold enough to buy one faced attacks by pro domestic supporters---intimidation, threats, outright sabotage, etc.
Perhaps universities should start thinking about including "gathering firewood, hauling water, or growing corn" as part of their MBA curriculum?
All kidding aside Steve, it probably won't come to that, but most assuredly, much of what we take for granted today won't be there for future generations.
Basically what I was trying to say was our society has become too dependent upon looking to others for help.
Maybe we aren't connecting on what you consider to be looking for help and what I consider to be taking advantage of skills others have that are better than mine.
The MBAs won't be the ones engineering the robots that build the cars or dig the ore out of the ground, nor writing the software that runs the robots.
Next step perhaps are cyber unions. The UAW seems simply in a downward holding pattern as the job skill set either fades away or moves further offshore. Tata, jobs.
Comments
OK lou, let's do the math:
"John" works 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 37 weeks (185 school days/5=37)
"Joe" puts in 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 50 weeks (assuming he starts off at 2 wks paid vaca.). Now, I have a hard time believing new hires "START" at $65k per yr,(here at Verizon, where both I and my wife earn $69k per yr w/ just a diploma, the starting salary is about $21,500) so if both have tenure to get that salary, then "JOHN" makes the same salary as "Joe", yet puts in ONLY 56% of the hours that "Joe" does (30hrs/wk*37 wks=1110 hrs, 40 hrs/wk*50 wks=2000 hrs)
THERE is your premium for your BS in history.
Also, I believe the income for middle class was stated as HOUSEHOLD, not INDIVIDUAL. With 2 incomes, it becomes easier to hit the mark than with 1
Well I'm not the one who has slammed and classified factory jobs as done by just dumb people.
First, I've talked about my owning a GM vehicle several times--a Silverado every two years for over 30 years!!. Where were you?
Well I'm not the only one who wasn't aware and I'll leave it at that !!!!
Secondly, not only do GM UAW employees repeatedly get dragged in (not quite true Rocky!), but I seem to recall a TON of lobbying for "those great GM products" from someone with the same username as yours!
Yes, I do in the GM forums "Market News & Support" forums. If it's UAW connected I will post it here.
Thirdly, Glad to see you're in favor of getting creative about what the UAW could do for itself. The door's open, so let's hear what you think!
Well maybe have a UAW committee that has to sign off on the product that they are going to build so automobiles like Jeep Commander, Lincoln Blackwoods, don't get built !!! See non-GMers !!! :P
Lastly, I wasn't "making subtle hints to shut this forum down". NO WAY!!
I was suggesting we move away from the incessant blame game and talk about things that might help the situation.
Frankly, I never do "subtle"---you must know that by now!
Well with me you don't beat around the bush, that's for sure !!! :surprise:
PS. I have an MBA by the way. Does that mean I couldn't hold a job at the local Chrysler Assembly plant? Darn!!
No, but their are certain jobs a person has to be very mechanically inclined to perform. Hey, I'm not mechanically inclined and I will admit it !!!
-Rocky
How does that relate to reality. The reality is he is retired and Delphi is still there. I am retired and the Phones, Cellular and Internet in my office is still chugging away. No one is indispensable. We can all be replaced. The reality is many jobs are made easier today by automation. The Union has fought against automation for as long as I can remember. Guess what they are losing the battle. Companies that cannot be profitable here die or go where they can. The first migration was to the south in the 1960s and 70s. The last 30 years it was to Canada, Mexico, Japan and China.
Our standard of living is in jeopardy. I don't see any solution that will work.
I have no degree from college. Those that used the GI bill or begged or borrowed to get a college degree deserve a higher wage than someone that just goes to work in a factory after HS. They should also be judged by their performance on the job. The Union people should also be evaluated and dumped if they do not perform to the standard. Why do you think Chrysler is offering buyouts? They want to get rid of the old dead wood in the workforce. If they did not believe they could hire someone out of HS to do the job for less money they would not be offering those packages.
Do you want to tell me that (in theory) a middle school history teacher couldn't be replaced by a college grad in India (via teleconference) making $400/mo, with a $10/hr teacher's aid in classroom???? Do we not do this already with technical assistance for the products we purchase, even if they are highly technical products???
The 'value' of work is not simply hours, in that case folks in the restaurant business would all be millionaires (and deserve it).
The 'value' of work is defined by many factors:
1. Demand for your skill set (following the example- teachers are in short supply while assembly workers are not).
2. Level of training required to perform the job. Rocket scientists are not in wide demand, however their skill set is very difficult to acquire.
3. Experience. Time on the job adds to and affects the 'value'.
To simply state that because Joe works more hours in a year than John and therefore should be paid more ignores all the factors that are pushing the UAW to reform.
FWIW, I support union labor and believe that it is the only way to counterbalance the push for profit.
I don't see how we can maintain a manufacturing base in this country (which we need) without having some kind of limits on 'free' trade. Since those countries which are now the source of manufacturing don't make any effort to provide living wages or to elevate their working populations into some kind of middle class level of affluence, it is not free trade for a company/ union which does support those goals to be in direct competition.
Enforce a decent standard of work environment and income on the factories now taking away US manufacturing and the resultant cost of goods would be more like free trade.
I agree. Not only that, if we were to move a lot of the manufacuring back here, we could control the safety and emissions on the plants that our products are made in. THAT ALONE could make up the difference in pollutants that we wouldn't need (although we should strive for) the higher CAFE regulations. I think I read that auto pollution accounts for only 20% of the CO2 emissions here.
Sorry you feel that way Rock, but how many college classes have you taken? Courses in history and sociology help develop a well rounded person and are only a small part of a degree program (unless of course, that is your major). So I'm confident you are once again ranting about something you know little about.
That comment is plain ridiculous.Just because somebody has a McDegree, does not make them a better worker, smarter, more valuable !!!! :confuse:
A degree doesn't automatically mean some ones smarter, or will work harder. But the stats prove it makes someone more valuable to the economy. You may not like it but that's the facts. If not, then why do so many employers demand it.
Seems you have a problem with people who's parents felt it was important to acquire an education and paid for it. Most students graduate with loans, so once again your off base. And so what if they did. The degree is not worth any more or any less based on how it was paid for.
Thanks to the degree my wife and I have earned we have taken advantage of opportunities that would never been possible without them and we have a lifestyle that would be impossible on avg. non-degree pay or UAW wages. Not to mention how much easier it is to find a job. Due to my wife's job we've moved to several states over the past 6 years. I've never had a problem finding a job. As a matter of fact, I start a new job on Monday (my degree and work experience met the requirements) and I sent out 2 resumes in late Nov.
It doesn't matter what you think work experience at a GM or Delphi plant is worth. What matters is what the market says it's worth and willing to pay. Bottomline, my personal experience and well known stats show that most degrees pay for themselves with the improved opportunities it presents.
But someone can receive minimal training and with a manual in their pocket fix the equipment.
Obviously you have never been inside some of these plants like I have. If you get a chance please go inside a Delphi, plant and ask the job setter to set up the line or participate in fixing the machines !!!
You cannot give someone minimal training and give them a manual and expect them to change a business model.
You see it everyday !!!
It's the same idea that a trash collector has more value immediately than a doctor. But while the doctor can always be a trash collector, the trash collector cannot always be a doctor.
Well the trash collector can go to college and obtain a Ph.D
It is a ridiculous position to suggest that degree educated people are less able to work a manual job than someone without. They may be less willing but not less able.
I know many degree people that can't even check their oil, let alone run high-tech machinery in a factory.
-Rocky
I will put a higher price tag on your knowledge and skills than Jack, who just got a cookie cutter MBA.
-Rocky
Which do you think an employer will value more:
1. A 20-year UAW line veteran who's specialized in installing dashboard and can probably do it in his sleep, or
2. A guy with an engineering degree who spent 2 years as a system integrator, 4 years as a field engineer and another 4 years as a system designer (total of 10 years).
I think the answer is obvious.
Also, MBA is for cookie cutters?
I strongly challenge anyone who makes that comment to take the GMAT first, if you scored in the 80th percentile with a minimum amount of study time I'll then shut the heck up. I am currently studying for it and it ain't a walk in the park.
I will put a higher price tag on your knowledge and skills than Jack, who just got a cookie cutter MBA.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I don't see how we can maintain a manufacturing base in this country (which we need) without having some kind of limits on 'free' trade. Since those countries which are now the source of manufacturing don't make any effort to provide living wages or to elevate their working populations into some kind of middle class level of affluence, it is not free trade for a company/ union which does support those goals to be in direct competition.
Enforce a decent standard of work environment and income on the factories now taking away US manufacturing and the resultant cost of goods would be more like free trade.
Holycow, that came out of no where !!! We are getting somewhere now !!!
-Rocky
I'm going to hazard a guess you neither have an MBA nor have tried to get one. They aren't cookie cutter (whatever that means) and they are expensive to attain (therefore require desire).
You cannot give someone minimal training and give them a manual and expect them to change a business model.
You see it everyday !!!
You see what every day? Do you think Steve Jobs/ Bill Gates/ Robert Wegman/ fill in business leader of choice are just fly-by-night guys who were gifted an MBA? Equally, do you think that any of them could have done it with a HS diploma?
I don't disagree with you that many people who work in manual jobs are skilled and smart. The issue is the value that there work is given as defined by the labor market.
If my company made an ability to fix complex equipment a high level requirement for an executive, I would be worried. As it is an MBA is a requirement which makes sense for a decision maker who should understand the market, trends, technology, people development, HR requirements, accounting and on and on.
Good point !!!! We also might just lower our national security risk.
-Rocky
The kicker is that others will not be raised to true affluence. There will be gains for many (who can really only go up), but not permanent. The masses of the planet are headed for a condition of global serfdom. Then there will be less worry among the entitlement-minded elite about unions, when people are working so hard to merely survive that they won't have the ability to organize. Globalization goes hand in hand with a socio-economic chasm of third world proportions.
One question: If you are going for a degree, say in accounting, are classes in history or sociology (courses that would be deemed electives, I assume) any more relevant to accounting than taking classes in automotive repair, or an EMT course, or a fire academy????? I say this because it was my experience that, inquiring about what it would take to get a BS in accounting, I took my transcript to a local college (I have an Associates degree in automotive technology). When they said they would only accept my sociology and public speaking classes, I asked why they wouldn't accept the auto classes that I spent 3 hrs a day, 5 days a week, for 18 straight months in place of some of those "electives" that had nothing to do with the science of accounting, thus allowing me more time to study the core curriculum they said that those classes weren't accredited or something. I say it sounded to me like a big money grab, just to get me to spend more money on more classes, all to make me "a more rounded person". Who the hell are they to judge what rounds me out more (ok,ok, at 5'6", 225lbs, I can't get much more rounded out :P )
It is possible (I would say desirable) to be pro-education, pro-union and pro-business. Just maybe not pro-'free' trade. I should say uncontrolled free trade.
It is in all our interests for the UAW to be strong, but they can only be strong if the companies they work for are strong also.
That sucks I know. I transferred schools while while in college and lost a few credits. I'd think your previous course work should count for something. Accredited is a must. If your program didn't qualify (right or wrong) no college/university will accept it.
Let's see !!! I have taken a semester's worth of college Math and English in 97'
I have also taken 12 weeks of NRC Armed Security Officer Classes (8 to 4) Mon-Fri
I have also taken 14 weeks of Para Military D.O.E. Security Police Officer Classes (7 to 4) Mon-Fri which is elgible for college credit torwards a criminal justice degree.
I did a weeks worth of Fork Lift Training (Twice) and obtained my license from a accredited college KVCC.Sit-down Stand-up, Cherry Picker. (1 week)
I did a week worth of Behavioral Based Safety. I've had multiple Hazmat training courses both industrial and for my CDL. Kaizen, Lean Manufactoring, Six-Sigma, Radiation Safety, X-Ray machine training, Nuclear Explosives, Ergonomics, Microsoft Works, Word, PC, Fax, Copier, typewriter, Firearms-Glock-17, M-4, AR-15, Beretta tactical 12 guage, 249 SAW, MK-19, M203 40mm Grenade Launcher, Armory, Armored Humvee training, Counter Intellegence, Cyber Security, Metal Detector, Explosive Detectors, Hand Held Metal Detector, Pat-Down search, computer simulated tactical and firearms training, Robotics (Water-Jet) Multiple Presses (punch, brake) Industrial Chemical Training, Spill Team Training, Hand cuffing, Deadly Force, Dairy SOP's, Pharmaceutical SOP's just to name a few but not nearly all !!!! Some I flat out just can't talk about obviously.
CDL-B (3 weeks)
TK Worldwide Inc. "professional automobile sales training school" (1 week 40 hrs)
State of Michigan-Life, Accident and Health-Resident Producer (1 week 40hrs)
So yeah compared to the amount of courses I've done and acquired knowledge OJT some college MBA's while a very respectable accomplishment can be looked at as to parrot Fintail, "cookie cutter" in comparison. I've actually applied all that I've learned in the classroom on the job !!!
diesel, am I educated enough to rant or does the fact that I don't have a McDegree, not qualify me to comment ????
A degree doesn't automatically mean some ones smarter, or will work harder. But the stats prove it makes someone more valuable to the economy. You may not like it but that's the facts. If not, then why do so many employers demand it.
I think I have a few on here like fintail and lemko, that will say that the silver spooned college suits some of which that run this country put so much emphasis on a degree and not enough on practical proven experience.
Seems you have a problem with people who's parents felt it was important to acquire an education and paid for it. Most students graduate with loans, so once again your off base. And so what if they did. The degree is not worth any more or any less based on how it was paid for.
I have no problem but some think because a guy/gal has a degree we need to automatically throw the red carpet for he or she. How about the union worker who has been improving his skills through OJT ??? He's not worth as much is what you are saying and I disagree is all !!!
Thanks to the degree my wife and I have earned we have taken advantage of opportunities that would never been possible without them and we have a lifestyle that would be impossible on avg. non-degree pay or UAW wages. Not to mention how much easier it is to find a job. Due to my wife's job we've moved to several states over the past 6 years. I've never had a problem finding a job. As a matter of fact, I start a new job on Monday (my degree and work experience met the requirements) and I sent out 2 resumes in late Nov.
Well I respect that and wish you well diesel. I guess I get defensive when people run down union workers when they have no idea how much training people like my father has been through. FYI, Dad was in the Navy, before GM, and was a radio technician.
It doesn't matter what you think work experience at a GM or Delphi plant is worth. What matters is what the market says it's worth and willing to pay. Bottomline, my personal experience and well known stats show that most degrees pay for themselves with the improved opportunities it presents.
Well I'm not sure what your degree is in but if people like Gates, get their way they will expand the visa program for skilled workers and all those white collar jobs pay will be signifacntly lowered asa result of skilled degreed Indians from India, China, South Korea, etc !!!! :sick:
-Rocky
As you will now see above I do not have a MBA.
You see what every day? Do you think Steve Jobs/ Bill Gates/ Robert Wegman/ fill in business leader of choice are just fly-by-night guys who were gifted an MBA? Equally, do you think that any of them could have done it with a HS diploma?
He enrolled at Harvard College in the fall of 1973 intending to get a pre-law degree,[20] but did not have a definite study plan and eventually left without his degree.[21] While at Harvard, he met his future business partner, Steve Ballmer, whom he later appointed as CEO of Microsoft. At the same time, he co-authored and published a paper on algorithms with computer scientist Christos Papadimitriou.[22]
So the fact that Gates, dropped out and from what I can tell has no degree he's just a dummy that built the Microsoft monopoly. :P
I don't disagree with you that many people who work in manual jobs are skilled and smart. The issue is the value that there work is given as defined by the labor market.
OMG, so because some guy in India, can do the MBA's job here in the states for a fraction of the cost then we should lower his pay to India, standards ??? Hell, we can do that with any job when competing against the 3rd world.
If my company made an ability to fix complex equipment a high level requirement for an executive, I would be worried. As it is an MBA is a requirement which makes sense for a decision maker who should understand the market, trends, technology, people development, HR requirements, accounting and on and on.
Or you could hire the H.S. diploma guy who has 15 years relavent proven experience.
-Rocky
Moving on (to something more UAW related please) ....
-Rocky
-Rocky
Hawkins' statement is in response to Thursday's announcement that General Motors Corp. plans to sell its medium-duty truck production to International Truck and Engine Corp. The move could bring more than 500 jobs to the area.
While company officials will not specifically say those jobs are coming to Springfield, Hawkins and UAW Local 402 officials are confident.
John Eblin, the bargaining chairman, and Charlie Hayden, the president, have confirmed that the contract ratified between the UAW and International promises upwards of 700 jobs to Springfield.
Production of the GMT 560 Series trucks, which includes the Chevy Kodiak and the GMC TopKick, may begin as early as July, Eblin said.
The Flint plant will lose the medium-duty truck production, but gain a product that will be announced in January so no one loses a job.
None of the 530 workers in Flint will move to Springfield; all jobs attached to the deal will go to International UAW workers or be filled by new hires.
"Our people (in Flint) build a great product," Hawkins said. "Now it's up to Springfield to keep that quality going."
link title
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky, go to any store in Michigan. Pick up any product and you will find WE ARE competing with the 3rd World countries. I think you are not as aware because the automotive industry is the last to go. And go they will. Detroit CANNOT compete building a $2500 TaTa anymore than Sunbeam USA could compete building a toaster. The only chance for the middle class in the USA is to hope the rest of the World catches up soon. It will have to level out and you and your children will be the ones to sacrifice. You seem to think this is a recent development. It did not start with Reagan. It started right after WW2. We gave special trade agreements with Japan & Germany to rebuild them. By the late 1950s they were sending stuff over here. By the 1970s there was not a car built without foreign parts in it.
-Rocky
So you think our government will let us totally collapse before we put in some protectionist clauses ? Perhaps you are going to be right, but our sakes I hope you are wrong.
-Rocky
P.S. That TaTa, wouldn't pass bike crash standards let alone U.S.A. automobile ones. For the immediant future the UAW only has Asia, Korea, Europe, to worry about.
I just don't buy the idea that the school of hard knocks is only open to those who don't go to college.
I tried Steve. No one's buying. :confuse:
Perhaps it is time to move on?
I will report back about what he learns.
-Rocky
True enough. However the only electric vehicle that will carry 4 passengers and can be licensed in most states comes from China. It gets around the crash tests by only have 3 wheels. That means it is legally a motorcycle.
The UAW will be very lucky to get any of the small EV or hybrid cars to build. Just not in the BIG plan. Not to worry as China will challenge the USA for the most cars in just a few years. GM is big over there. They are the biggest in China last I checked.
You are convinced all this alternative energy idea's are going to be manufactored in China. I am still holding out "hope" that much of it will be made here by UAW workers.
-Rocky
P.S. GM, is the biggest player in China, and Buick, of all brands is it's most popular. :surprise:
I stick to Emotorcons around here but perhaps it's time to find one of those animated head banging ones, LOL.
$100,000 buyout for 5 year UAW workers at Chrysler:
WIRF
You've got a point there, but I doubt very much if it would change anything.
It seems forums like this one where total posts reach high numbers, a core poster group settles in and eventually drifts into heated debates having little or nothing to do with the forum topic. (Perhaps because everything that could be said about the 'real' topic has been rehashed too many times?)
Example: What do the current 30 or 40 posts re MBA have to do with the subject?
This MBA discussion became the response to a reasonably valid question a while back.."What could the UAW do itself to help stop the bleeding?"
So go figure!!
With respect, in my opinion, it refers pretty well to the changes that the UAW need to be open ot in terms of changing their worker/ owner relationship with the big 3.
Perhaps if a few more of the UAW's leadership had MBAs, they would be more effective in positioning their members for success in 2, 5 and 10 years from now.
I'm certified in setting-up plastic blowmolding machines. One dropped wrench and you can ruin a $10K (in 1988 dollars) die. Another slip-up and you can lose something more valuable than a die...like a hand!!! Just the arm that extracts the molded product exerts 25 psi which is like a 200-lb. man standing on your thumbs. The pressure the die exerts will turn your hand into applesauce.
Then there's the Roman Emperor, Nero, 2000 years ago....well. you know that story!
Get my message?
Good point!!
Wonder if some folks here are listening?
Seems to me that the majority of opinion expressed in this forum is a reflection of a fundamental issue North American society faces today.
That fundamental issue has been touched on a few times in this forum, but quickly dismissed by those who choose to ignore (or deny) its existence.
The word is "ENTITLEMENT"
That said, the culture of entitlement I refer to is a hugely pervasive element in our society.... and I'm not referring to it in the union (or UAW) context talked about in this forum.
It's everywhere. we are all 'victims' of this affliction.
We, as a society, have become utterly dependent upon "others" to address our problems (government, lawmakers, public service providers, industry, social service agencies, health care providers...etc.).
We have come to expect that for every problem we incur, the cause..and the solution...lie in someone else's bailiwick.
The UAW---and the entire US economic system for that matter--and its status
as a dominant economic engine--is in decline.
The UAW, and our entire generation has already begun to feel the effects of that decline, and it's not going to get better, I'm afraid.
That said, what we point blame at--foreign manufacturers such as Chinese,Japanese, or whatever country's automakers--is wrong.
We have nothing but ourselves to blame--the reality is that each of us is the authors of our own misfortune. That includes you BTW.
It's not the fault of the Japanese, Chinese, Europeans, or whom you choose to pick on, that got us into this dilemma--it's us!
We had choices--they didn't twist anybody's arms to buy their products.
We cannot expect our government to enact protectionist rules to insulate us from the effects of a global economy or succesful developing countries within it.
It is foolish and short sighted to expect Governments to continually shovel gobs of subsidiies to prop up a declining auto industry.
It is economic suicide to expect a publicly owned company to dismiss competitive initiatives to stay alive.
Like the philosophy expressed in the Peanuts cartoon..."We've seen the enemy, and the enemy is us!"
So what are YOU going to do about it besides just crying the blues about those big bad Japanese automakers (who BTW for the past couple of decades have been doing a far better job than our domestic automakers!) ??
The future is in our (yours, mine, and everyone else) hands.
Unfortunately I fear there's not enough willingness left in our society to make the changes and some hard sacrifices necessary to fix the problem.
We have grown too comfortable in our self indulgent status quo to take the long hard road we obviously must take to help ourselves.
I don't think anyone can relate anywhere in Europe (or at least the parts not sacrificed to Soviet rule - and even most of those are/were shangri-la compared to China) in 1973 or Japan in 1983 or Korea in 1993.
You say that like it's a bad thing. I don't know about you, but I like not spending my day gathering firewood, hauling water, or growing corn.
Let's say we're in an agrarian society 200 years ago and I'm good at, say, weaving, I'll spend my day at my loom. If I can't sell the cloth for enough to keep the coal fires burning, maybe I'll join in with my fellow weavers and try to form some kind of mutual assistance society. Maybe we'll call it a guild. Maybe we'll figure out that we can all go in together and give one person all our cloth and she can take it to the market town in the next shire and sell it for more money. And we'll all raise our standard of living.
We'll also deny entry to foreign weavers, only disclose tricks of the trade to fellow guild members, sew up the local raw materials market, prevent new weavers from joining our guild until they've completed a long apprenticeship, boycott the cheap merchants who won't pay us a fair wage and otherwise protect our livelihood.
Then one day we'll vote to call our guild a union.
Then some guy named Sakichi Toyota will invent an automated power loom and put all our skills out to pasture. Fortunately our standard of living was high enough, long enough, for all our kids to get MBAs.
Not as "ludicrous" as you suggest, or as we are led to believe.
Have you visited any of the autoplants in China?
I have--as recently as last year---and it's not anywhere nearly as bad as claimed by many here.
Don't confuse what's being used as "China" examples (the worst "sweatshop" operations there are usually touted as typical).
Plus, I'm old enough to remember much vitriolic badmouthing against offshore automakers in the 60's, 70's and early 80's! It wasn't pretty!!
All too often, owners bold enough to buy one faced attacks by pro domestic supporters---intimidation, threats, outright sabotage, etc.
All kidding aside Steve, it probably won't come to that, but most assuredly, much of what we take for granted today won't be there for future generations.
Basically what I was trying to say was our society has become too dependent upon looking to others for help.
The MBAs won't be the ones engineering the robots that build the cars or dig the ore out of the ground, nor writing the software that runs the robots.
Next step perhaps are cyber unions. The UAW seems simply in a downward holding pattern as the job skill set either fades away or moves further offshore. Tata, jobs.