Best to be careful with stats - I can find stats that say the fired worker wins half the cases that go to trial. Last I heard, less than 1% of all suits filed go to trial. There's a long road between filing a suit and facing a jury. (link and link - that one says 3% overall and 1.4% for employment discrimination cases).
There's going to be a lot of "political" decisions made before you get to the jury.
Oh, absolutely!!! My point is that you really have to go some to find a reason to fire someone w/ that type of tenure. People w/ that type of service time are generally looked upon as leaders, as they know the job, workrules, etc. It's easy to see where management would come to resent those people as they may have more influence w/ younger co-workers who otherwise may be intimidated by their managers.
I had a situation where I was standing next to a co-worker as our manager was going over our stats. When we install phone lines, they expect that no more than 4-5% of the customers will call back w/in a week w/ a problem of some sort. Well, my co-worker had only performed 3 installs the previous month as he was out w/ some malady. 1 customer called back to report a problem, meaning that month he had a repeat rate of 33%. Most installers do 60-80 a month. My boss was giving him a hard time about that 33% rate of his. I said, Russ, you can't be serious. 1 out of 3 is a statistical anomaly. You've got better things to do than bust balls over THAT. With that, he backed off, but you can see where he may have intimidated my co-worker, who only had a couple years in at the time.
Imadozal97, your statement is based on one anonymous person's post to that effect.
It is highly unlikely that anything like that is remotely true---leastwise it cannot be verified based on an isolated report.
It is misleading, and patently wrong to suggest anything like that is occurring in that context.
I doubt very much that it's true, especially since contemporary State Labor Standards Legislation prevents such discrimination on the basis of age, religion, race, non pre-existing medical problems, or dismissal without cause.
Comment:... It's not unusual to hear stories like that when organizing campaigns are being held at a non union plant...Georgetown for example had one in 07. It happens...too often--and that's one of the under-the-table deeds where unions get tagged with negatives!!!!
So are you calling the Georgetown, Toyota workers liars and this never happened or never happens ????
I doubt very much that it's true, especially since contemporary State Labor Standards Legislation prevents such discrimination on the basis of age, religion, race, non pre-existing medical problems, or dismissal without cause.
I'm not sure which country/state your living in but the one I'm living in silverfox5, those laws are rarely enforced. In Canada, they might be but in the Southern USA, NLRB and even here in pro-union Michigan, labor charges are lightly investigated. Unless it's done on a large scale those "issues" are just documented and that's about all that happens. Haworth, Steelcase, Herman Miller, Gentex, Johnson Controls Inc., Lear, has been accused of weeding out the elderly and replacing them with young, less pay and benefits workforce.
Even my former employers management under secrecy has went on record of saying the company wants to keep you for 5 years and then find a way to get rid of you !!!! Of course I'm expecting to be accused of making this up !!! :sick:
Here is my take. The reason why the Domestics have such an old workforce is simply constant lay offs. When I worked in a unionized workplace, the constant layoffs created a big gap in age. Everyone was 40+. The new guys were in their twenties, but not many people in their 30ies. Young people got tired of the layoffs and moved on while the older people remained due to senority.
As for older workers being forced out. You bectha. The problem isn’t age, but health. In manufacturing if you are not healthy there is a big problem because there really are not a lot of light duty jobs around. Once a person’s health starts to go there sometimes isn’t much choice about it. And sadly not everyone’s health will start to go after retirement.
Older workers are more experienced and that counts for a lot but the place I worked at had many banged up folks and not enough younger workers at all.
a few weeks ago that someone had posted that we should shut down the UAW topic because all the contracts had been signed, so there was nothing to discuss for 3 years until the contacts expire...then, I see 89 posts...glad this topic didn't go away, other wise how else could we send union-zingers at rocky???... :P
It was stated earlier about losing our manufacturing base...in principle, I absolutely agree that we need our foundries and steel mills, no matter how much they pollute, our iron mines, no matter how dangerous they are, and our factories or else we may find that we are trying to build B2 bombers to protect us fron China with steel that we may no longer buy from China if they become a hostile enemy...imagine if we had to buy our steel from Germany prior to WWII, how could we build all those planes in Ypsilanti if our ebemy had the steel???
Having said that, and I do believe it, it has been difficult to keep that in mind as our automobile quality dropped severely in the 70s, 80s, and 90s...while this is not meant to bash the UAW (even tho I usually do, and they were a major cause of the assembled junk they tried to sell us), when Americans purchased Hondas and Toyotas, they believed they were buying autos with the quality that was severely lacking in GM/Ford/Chrysler products...
The byproduct of this, or, if you will, the law of unintended consequences means that we are losing our manufacturing and industrial base simply because of a desire to avoid what the buyer thought was American-made junk...the guy buying an Accord was simply avoiding Big 3 crap, and was not thinking of destroying the American industrial base...
Considering that an auto is the second largest purchase most of us will ever make, and one that we will make repetitively, we want to buy what we think is a quality purchase...even rocky knows that American quality had slipped over the decades and most buyers that bought imports were impressed with them, enough to swear off Big 3 products forever...that is why the Big 3 have such a challenge ahead of them...they can't just make products "as good as the japanese"...their products must BE BETTER than the Japanese in order to win over the import buyers because they had been burned too often in the past...at 29 years old, rocky cannot understand this because he did not live thru the UAW junk years of the 70s and 80s, which is why he also cannot understand the misery index of Jimmy Carter, why he was such a poor President, and how Reagan restored this nation's pride...he did not live it, he read about it in Time magazine, who never forgave Reagan for calling the Soviets the "evil empire"...
To the average guy like me, spending my money on a junk American product was a simple waste of money...to this day, I believe that the union and their arrogance and unwillingness to change was more of the cause of the decline in quality than poor management...after all, you can fire the one guy at the top and be done with it, but firing all those employees takes more time...
So, I am faced with a challenge...do I buy American to save my neighbor's job when my neighbor, IMO, goes out of his way to make junk that is a waste of my money, and thereby help save the American industrial base, or do I spend my money on what I (and apparently millions like me) believe to be a superior product, causing my neighbor to lose his union-protected job, but having a product that is better made, runs better, has better resale value, better mpg, but happens to contribute to the destruction of our industrial base???
The macroeconomic view is this: We (America) can't afford the loss of our industrial base...
The microeconomic view is this: I (me and my personal budget) can't afford to buy American Union junk that costs more to run and will have to be replaced sooner, costing me even more than any Japanese product ever would, taking ever more of my disposable income over my lifetime...
The solution (in the mind of each individual): I will buy the quality Japanese product, but there will be enough Americans who can be duped into buying union junk that our industrail base will be preserved...
The problem: so many could not be duped into buying the union product that our industrial base is, indeed, waning...
Extrapolating that view, one could blame the arrogance of the UAW and their junk product as the underlying reason for their own job losses and the progressive loss of our industrial base...if they hadn't made such junk that they virtually FORCED us to look elsewhere for quality (while they stuck their heads in the sand and thought they could advertise their way to quality with slogans like "Quality is Job One" or "Buy American and Save your Neighbor's Job") we would still have a thriving Big 3 auto industry and our industrial base...
But, as Big 3 auto sales dropped, we did not need as much steel, so the steelworkers went, and we did not need as much iron, and so on, and so on...
On a macroeconomic level, one could make an argument that the stubbornness of the UAW, allowing them to raise costs with restrictive work rules and the junk product they assembled was the underlying cause of the loss of the American industrial base...
Bottom line: if the quality of the cars in the 70s and 80s was not below boat anchor material, the japanese would have had a much more difficult time to establish a beachhead because their products would not have stood out against American products...but the japanese had a cakewalk because all they had to do was make a car door close with a "thunk" instead of a metallic "clang" and it was obvious that their cars were better...
The Americans have been playing catch up for over 25 years, which is an awful lot of car buyers who may never consider them again after being burned multiple times in the 70s and 80s...
Some of you may blame management...it was the union, specifically the UAW, that is the true underlying cause for the failure of Americans to buy American junk products, which led to the obvious eventual decline of the American industrial base...
That is what one might call an economic analysis...and I ain't even no economist...:):):):):)
I'm only assuming you are sort of new to the game here on edmunds ?
Well I don't like to speak for others that often but imidazol97, for the last few years and on previous UAW forums we've had here on edmunds has posted links to allegations and story's involving the Georgetown Toyota Plant. These peoplewere interviewed and they told their side of the story. Sure Toyota, management can spin the story and try to disprove the credibility of the allegations of the employees but based on personal experience and having I, family, and friends, work for the large company's like the ones I listed above at one time or another well I'm here to tell you it's quite common. One of my family members got carpal tunnel from the un ergonomic, reptitive work and she works for one of the employers above. They tried everything they could to try to get her to quit, tried to deny her medical coverage on surgery for her wrists and hands from the carpal tunnel. It got so bad that still to this day she has lost feeling in her finger tips because they delayed the surgery. She even talked to a attorney because of the harrassment at work and all the tears shed. Her employer silverfox5, has used her carpal tunnel fight against her still to this day and she got a $0.07 raise last review. Up until the carpal tunnel case she got average raises like everybody else so the moral of my story is silverfox5, and even you marsha7, that the corruption I've witnessed in my short life of 29 years has been very personal. Yeah, I may not of been old enough to remember Jimmy Carter, but I do remember some of the Reagan years. I agree Carter, wasn't a good president but I never have said he was but I also believe Reagan, was not as great as many like you guys want me to believe.
I know you and marsha7, love to get my goat !!!! You guys do a good job at times to try to rile me up and should make a reasonable assumption that nobody even you guys aren't crazy enough to believe some of the propaganda you type and I should take it with a grain of salt.
I know marsha7, is trying to put a spin on the story.
The bottom line is how is Toyota/Lexus Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura, Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes/Maybach, Hyundai/Kia, Audi/Porsche/Volkswagon, to name a few able to make large profits using unionized labor some of which has tighter work rules than the UAW. I over the last couple of years find myself bringing up this point eventually. In Europe, the employees work 35 hour work weeks which includes company paid breakfast, beer at lunch, get a automatic month of vacation time, aren't required to work weekends, get pension benefits. In Japan, they the long vacation breaks, nap time, pensions, company stores, housing schools, etc. but some how their company's make large profits.
Is it really the unions fault like marsha7, says silverfox5 ??? Why are the Europeans/Japanese, able to use unioniozed labor and not the U.S. ???? Do you think the tariffs, trade barriers, currency manipulation, not play any sort of role ??? I ask you guys to spend as much time as I and others have in the past looking into these issues instead of believing everything you read in the newspaper, much of which is a written publication from the company and the paper runs with it to have a hot "story".
I have belonged to a few unions in my life. All but one of them good or as good as they could be given the circumstances at the time. A union is only as strong as it's membership. I OTOH, have grown up around unions my whole life and got to listen to my uncles, aunts, grandparents, discuss "work" at the family dinner table and a lot of it wasn't pretty. A constant battle between union and managment. Issues that range from discrimination, health and safety issues, medical, pay, benefits, retirement, productivity, grievances, work suggestions, to name a few. Let's not forget politics !!!! These are some of the topics I grew up learning, listening to, so while I was young in age I quickly learned a lot about the real world and my childhood wasn't all toys, cartoons, sports, school, like most kids my age.
You know full well what goes on when union organizing drives are conducted at various plants. Like I said, some things that happen ain't pretty--but they happen. Rumors get tossed around freely, signup documents are mysteriously forged, workplace complaint frequency increases dramatically, intimidating phone calls are made,.....I think you know what I'm talking about. You also know that Union officials profess they don't condone these tactics, but in reality they do little to stop them. In my entire career, I've never heard of any union sanction against any member anywhere for doing things like that---so what does that tell us?
Since voting for unionization by secret ballot and requiring 66% to gain approval is required I think your allegations are pretty far fetched and un true silverfox5.
Again, I'd love to know where you get this information ??? :confuse: It has to be from a Pro-Mises press clipping :confuse:
(Especially what you just wrote about certain privileges for workers in Europe---those are mostly untrue--at least in the Europe I worked in for three years!!)
Well tell that to the engineers that work for Delphi, who done work over in Germany, and my great uncle who is a tool & die worker and is as right-winged as they come. He couldn't believe it how made those folks have it !!!
I can't speak to the case re your family member---for the simple reason that I know nothing of the facts, and you certainly haven't fully disclosed them--however i will say what you attribute to "corruption" isn't necessarily one sided in many similar cases.
Well the bottom line is my relative was injured from doing her job. They have a high known carpal tunnel rate and they made her jump through hoops for many extra months before they decided to treat her. It wasn't until their backs were against the wall they decided to treat her. They tried blaming it on a previous employer she worked for but she did not do the repetitive work with her hands like she has done with this employer.
Using your family member's unfortunate situation as, somehow, proof of the "allegations" at the Georgetown plant, carries little weight in insisting it's true.
Was trying to show you work related incidents in non-union shops does happen and injured, the elderly, and high paid, are shown the door. :sick:
Well tell that to the engineers that work for Delphi, who done work over in Germany, and my great uncle who is a tool & die worker and is as right-winged as they come. He couldn't believe it how made those folks have it !!!
Why are Germans bailing out of Germany if it is so great? I can tell you. Socialism is a poor excuse for a country to adopt if they want people to be motivated. The Union mentality can become socialistic if not kept in check.
German emigrants dream about new beginning overseas
Tuesday, December 25, 2007 An upward trend of emigration among Germans reveals its signs in the attention the ‘Goodbye Deutschland’ program enjoys. Germans seem to be eager to start a new life abroad
They flee Berlin for sunny California, dream of opening a restaurant in Cambodia, or attempt to set up as horse-breeders in Tuscany -- never in the past 50 years have so many Germans been so eager to start a new life abroad.
The trend has even sparked its own television reality show "Goodbye Deutschland!" (Goodbye Germany), watched by millions, a program that follows the daily travails of Germans taking their first steps abroad, an adventure which at least 155,000 Germans embarked on last year, up 32 percent compared to five years ago.
"All the large industrial countries are similarly affected, but it's even more marked in Germany where, according to a number of international surveys, people are less satisfied than elsewhere," according to Thomas Straubhaar, a Hamburg economics professor.
You know what they say - everyone should spend the first 25 years of their life at home, then live abroad for 25 years, and then return home for the last 25+ years.
20 years in Alaska was "abroad" enough for me I guess.
155,000 expats a year out of 82 million German citizens doesn't sound like much of a bail-out.
In UAW news, "By 2011, he said, GM may even cut its U.S. hourly labor costs below those of archrival Toyota Motor Corp." (GM to save most from pact)
I think the difference is people leaving the US are looking for a place to retire where their income will last longer. This German emigration sounds like productive people leaving. I also read about the brain drain from Sweden to other countries. I am thinking Costa Rica if Hillary gets elected That is the only foreign country I am intrigued with. I have so many friends that go there. Many have stayed. Or just go live in Hawaii part of the year. So many decisions when you retire.
I am thankful my last 37 years was in a strong Union. Social Security will not cover most people's food bills with the way prices are headed up. I'm glad I have a wheelbarrow to carry the money to the store for a loaf of bread.
European immigration policies are creating the emigration/brain drain of today. Many don't want to remain in a place where shortsighted policies are going to likely create civil war and a destroyed heritage. The same forces enabling the inflation you mention has also encouraged said immigration. From what I have read, Swedish emigration is at a 100 year high. I should probably say no more :sick:
Let's try to keep it related to the UAW and keep that 80 something win streak going for Marsha7 - check out the Off Topic Chatter board (maybe Politics over there).
OK, m-a-y-b-e I overexaggerated just a l-i-t-t-l-e bit just to see if rocky was reading or ignoring my post...
But, seriously, even with poor management, I simply recall that in many of my dealings with UAW members while I lived in Detroit 1980-1990, they had the most arrogant attitude I ever came across in any one "group" of people, and it was obvious, to me, IMO, that they were brainwashed that they made the best products when they were falling apart and sounded like junk...when I would ask them to sit in my 1986 Accord and tell me why they couldn't/wouldn't make something that quiet, that solid, they would avoid the car like a child would avoid a dark closet at night...THEY WERE AFRAID OF IT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE...these were adults that would not sit in the seat of their Japanese competition, but they would tell me they made the best cars in the world...sorry, but they made junk and eventually the market would scream loud enough that they had no choice but to hear the roar...
You can blame mgmt, but the folks who made the cars, IMO, shared at least 75% of the blame for the crap...it wasn't the poor design, it was the cars were put together like nobody cared, because, quite frankly, nobody cared...
rocky is at a severe disadvantge...he stated he is 29 years old...if that is true, he was born in 1979...the worst American cars, with GM making the majority, were buily approx 1970-1990 (plus or minus)...that means while growing up in a GM unionized household, he was brainwashed by family and friends about how "great" their cars were in the very years he was in diapers...he missed the 1970s, and was only 11 in 1990, so anything he thinks he knows is simply parental brainwashing, since he was too young to do anything except cry when he was hungry and needed a diaper change...if he was born in 1979, he literally knows NOTHING about the cars he speaks about, because he was too young to comprehend anything about them, and he would not have been driving until 1995...so, keep in mind, if he really is 29, any comments about the Japanese invasion in the 1980s, or the crap GM made in the 70s and 80s are simply stories he read in his union fairy tale books, because he did not live it except as an infant in his diapers...now in my mid-50s, I did live it, and I sold auto parts for my father's auto parts store in the 1970s, and, when we saw the junk that GM built, I can assure you, no sane person would want to buy it, once they understood what crap they made...it did not take too long, as no sane folks wanted American cars because of the junk they were made...
That is something rocky, for his supposed youth, cannot comprehend, as he only received the union side of the issue, and probably never knew anyone who was a nonunion person, simply because union families associated with union families...so all he knows is rah-rah for GM from stories told to him by Dad and Grandpa, but his actual life experience with the junk is nonexistent, as he was too young to know...this is not said to irritate anybody, but if he is 29, then he cannot comment on something he was too young to experience except by rumors and stories told to him by his unionized family...who knows, the folks that were afraid to sit in my Honda may have been some of his family, and they had no idea what Japan was doing, as they could not get over their childlike fear of an import car...how foolish, childish and immature they were...afraid of sitting in a car, as tho the steering wheel might bite them...
Holycow Marsha7, you hit the nail of my life on the head. Give me a break !!!! I was born in 1978 marsha7, and while you might think I lived in a bubble and was to young to understand a little about the world, you are using poor judgement and I find it a little insulting. My great aunt sold toyota forklifts, and drove those Japanese made POS's of the 80's. If those Japanese POS's saw 2 winters with road salt their sheetmetal would turn to powder.
Outside of the barbs at my youth, intellegence, and ability to comprehend, I found your short story quite hilarious.
silverfox5's story OTOH well I'm not sure what to say about that one ??? :surprise: I guess I question the integrity of the author behind it as it seems far fetched as I have been to a organizing campaign a time or two with a grandparent.
So now you blame 75% of the crap made by GM, which in comparison to the stuff Toyota, Daihatsu, Honda, Nissan, brought over here. GM, had a few bad cars from the late 70's through the 80's that really stuck in the minds. Toyota, also with their manipulation was able to severely under cut the big 3. If domestic automobiles were such crap and the Japanese, were so superior then why in the heck do I not see any vintage superior japanese cars from the 70's and 80's ??? I see Domestics and Europeans from that era but no rice burners. :confuse: Oh excuse me I saw a Lexus, at Mickey D's about a month or so ago that was from the late 80's early 90's based on a camry.
The japanese quality you speak about didn't show up until the early-mid 90's and then I would agree they made marginally better cars and that wasn't every model. Ford, sure did sell a lot of Taurus's, if the japanese made such better cars. Why isn't Toyota, the #1 brand here in the U.S. if they are so superior ??? :confuses
So that is my response when people try to soley put the blame on the UAW workers like marsha7, has !!!
On a side note the big 3 didn't hide their recalls and quality issues like toyota, did in the 90's to give a flawless perception that is being reversed today by all the tranny issues, engine sludge, frames that bend like fishing rods.
Actually the Japanese got the reputation for quality in the late 80ies not the 90ies. I am just a tad older than you, 33 and I defiantly remember the headlines as the domestics really began to loose ground. The SUV craze of the 90ies probably gave the domestics a real breather cause the Japanese were coming on really fast.
The I don’t remember Japanese cars of the 80ies being rust prone and I live in an area where they aggressively salt the roads. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Japanese cars of the 70ies were rust buckets but the Japanese learned how to fix that problem pretty quick. Also by the mid 80ies the Japanese were charging more for their cars than the domestics.
The domestics had major quality issues in the 80ies due to major changes in the industry and the domestics took far too long to address those issues. I don't blame the UAW, but bad managment.
IMO, it was in the mid to late 80's when I started noticing how good Honda was. I got my drivers license in '87 and I remember driving my uncles '87 Honda CRX si and was blown away. I couldn't believe how smooth and responsive that car drove, and it was very fast for a 4cyl at that time.
Same goes for a friends parent's '87 or '88 (can't remember exactly) Accord LX-i. It drove much better than any comparable domestic I was used to. Not to mention how much better Honda's 4cyl's were than the Ford and GM 4 bangers I was used to. I think the key was Honda only made 4 cyl cars back then and all of the domestic 4 cyl engines flat out sucked. Back then GMs full-size B bodys or whatever they were called were not bad. It was GM and Fords economy cars that were terrible and that is where Honda was competing and cleaning up.
My family as a whole bought only domestics, and I suffered through many of them. My first car was a '75 Buick Regal, then I ended up with an '86 Escort while in HS. Was reliable, but far from anything Asian's were bringing over.
Ford didn't get a 4cyl worth a crap until they investing in Mazda and started using some of their engines.
And don't bring up the Iron Duke or the Quad 4. GARBAGE. I knew to many people back then that had bad luck with them.
even born in the beginning years of the junk, and were in diapers for the beginning of the Japanese onslaught (invasion may be a bad word, in light of 1941), you really do not know the kind of junk we bought from GM/Ford/Chrysler in the 70s and 80s...
I hardly saw a japanese car in the 70s except for one Honda dealer in Atlanta, and the Accord impressed me even then...but I did not buy one until 1985 (Prelude) and then 1986 (Accord, 4 Door), and they were great cars...
For any good American car that your relatives may tell you, their own union inherent bias will not permit them to tell you about how good the japanese cars were, simply because they had their heads in the sand...frankly, they only saw their own products, so you could argue that they were the best products THEY ever saw, because they could not even LOOK at an import, literally turning their heads if they saw one...so, yeah, when your family says that they never saw a car made better than theirs, they are, literally, correct...frankly, they never stopped to look...
You might argue anything you want, but one thing you cannot argue...folks changed over to the imports because they were not happy with what Big 3 were selling them...you were too young to really know how much resentment I saw from Detroit people who were not associated with the carmakers..."who are THEY to tell me what to buy?"..."how can they make such junk and have the nerve to tell me I should buy it to save their jobs?"...
One thing your entire family and circle of friends lacks is the insight and awareness of the resentment from people in Detroit (not auto related people) who were visibly upset at the thought of buying American junk...I learned that union people hang out with union people, simply because you think alike...but when the quality of your product is questioned, you literally have no idea because, well, you only hang out with your own and you really are quite naive as to the dissatisfaction with the quality of your product...even extensive layoffs due to lack of sales did not open your eyes for over 20 years...it is like the UAw put up a wall around any criticism of their product, so hear no evil, see no evil...now, they are finally seeing the light...and it's about time...
rocky, you can rah-rah GM all you want, and, NOW, their products ARE better, and we can be thankful for that...but, you are simply too young to really know anything about the 70s and 80s (which is where the reputation for crap was established and folks over 40 still have long memories...screw me once shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me), except for stories you heard from union family members, the same ones who would look away if a Honda passed them on the road and could not understand why the imports were inherently better...if nothing else, with doors that closed solidly and 4 cyl engines that hummed instead of clanged, they certainly gave the instant impression that they were better made, and, in my experience, and thousands like me, the cars were better...
Graph the growth of the Japanese imports and you must realize that many of these were sales that the Big 3 lost...they didn't lose them because no one liked Ford Red, they lost them because they made junk, and many folks caught on once they saw a superior product...face it, if the Japanese car was NO BETTER than the Big 3, folks would have bought one and, dissatisfied, returned to Big 3 product...but you know and I know that there is a substantial portion of folks who will NEVER look American again, simply because of the well-earned reputation for junk the Big 3 took over 20 years to establish and reinforce, and are just now starting to work their way out of it...
If you were old enough to drive the junk we did, your opinions would be different...then again, if you would have been the one who turned your head at the sight of a Honda, maybe you would have the same lack of knowledge as you do now...argue all you want, but your youth means you weren't there, and are hardly qualified to comment on product quality that you know nothing about...present quality, yes, but what we dealt with 20 years ago, you literally have no idea...
Let's put this in perspective...I bought my first Honda in 1985, that makes you 7 years old...yeah, I am quite sure you are aware of American automobile quality as compared to imports as you enter the second grade...sorry, dude, your credibility for commenting on the past is shot to h*ll...
We still welcome your comments on products made after, say, 1995, but on anything before that, your diapers speak louder than you do... :P ...:):):):):)
Oh, and your current political opinions are valid, too, but anything about Carter and Reagan is off limits...let's just call it the "Diaper Factor"...LOL...man, I just slay me...
“Back then GMs full-size B bodys or whatever they were called were not bad. It was GM and Fords economy cars that were terrible and that is where Honda was competing and cleaning up.”
I would agree with that. There is not much put together like an old Buick or a Chevy Caprice. They are extremely well built, but woe to those who purchase the stuff on the smaller end like the escort, cavalier, tempo\topaz. That is where the domestic’s biggest problems are.
The problem is that those small cars tend to be either one’s first car or perhaps a second car purchased for yourself or your wife. Their bad reputation hurt future buyers. It was the tempo that drove my mom into the arms of the Japanese. She would never have bought a Japanese car in the 70ies or early 80ies.
That is where I believe you make my point...there were enough bad American cars that a bad reputation was established that could not be overcome by, say, the good Buicks or Caprices...once you have been burned by a Tempo, Pinto, Maverick, Vega, and especially burned more than once, once you buy a Japanese car with a good experience, the avoidance of American is now burned into your mind, you will also tell your children not to buy American, and the memories linger for a long time...
That is the current challenge for Big 3 to win back market share...they did not lose market share simply by random accident...there was, and is, a strong belief that our quality was/is inferior, and we have to work doubly hard to show, not that we can MATCH the Japanese, but that we can SURPASS the Japanese...
If all we can do is match them, that is no reason for one to desert japanese cars for American...we must be better, and it is incumbent on the union to cooperate, or they will be the master of their own destruction...
I also wonder if this is the reason why GM and the domestics have such a hard time adapting and adjusting in the past. Employee discounts let members buy new cars that are larger than the general public and they perhaps replaced them more frequently. I know Toyota used a Buick as their benchmark for what Toyota should offer the North American market. Perhaps the domestics were too blinded with arrogance to see the problem until it was nearly too late.
Marsha7, I was carrying around a Motor Trend in 1985 dude !!! You have absolutely no idea what kind of a kid I was. I was well aware that honda and toyota brought over some sardine cans and you guys like suckers bought them. If you wanted to get a import you should of got a Mercedes, as I will agree they were a little better.
The bottom line is it's ticking you off that I have knowledge of the 80's and your diaper spin is not going to take away from that no matter how you Bill O'Reilly my response.
The bottom line is the yuppies on the left coast thought it would be cool to buy japananese automobiles not because they were better but it was a trend. Toyota, finally by the early 90's invested heavily in propaganda and hid recalls from their owners. When you have your recalls fixed during routine service of course you can paint a rosy picture of flawlessness. If those Accords were so fantastic tell that to my buddy Joe, who had his dash split on his early 90's Accord. Iagree it was smoother and agree the quad 4 sucked but the hard plastic was no different than what was found in a Cavalier. To say the least that puppy was pretty badly rusted after it was 6 years old. Rusted through holes but of course since it came from Honda, it must be superior. I guess you and Barbara Boxer, feel the same on that issue as she is a honda spokesmouth also. :P
So yeah, you can disregard my credibility of that era all you want marsha7, but talking to others like lemko, imidazol97, 1487, who weren't wearing diapers like you say I was well have a different take than the one you gave me. Find me an 88' Accord, in the rust belt that looks as good as lemko's Park Avenue or better yet like his 89' Cadillac Brougham !!!! :P
Well Mr. Capitalist, you always talk about change at the union and management level...How about at the federal level ??? How about some built in protection against currency manipulation, throw in some trade barriers & tariffs. This is what the big 3 and the UAW faces when trading with Asia, and Europe. Throw in some national healthcare also and we definetly can compete on a level playing field. The government has to do it's part to make it work. Cutting here and improving there is not going to solve the problems we face.
Some of us have all the answers but leave out ones that would really make a noticable difference and you didn't have to wear diapers 29 years ago to figure that out !!!
Rocky, even though you and I apparently disagree politically (I think Bill O'Reilly is refreshingly honest...it wasn't anyone at Fox News who was fired for fabricating a story about Bush like mainstream-media man Dan Rather was)...we agree on domestic iron. Were there crappy late '70's-'90's domestic iron? You bet! Were there crappy Japanese cars, '60's through whenever? You bet! Bodies were crap; I think anybody who's over 40 and who lives in the rust belt will tell you that. How 'bout that Honda CVCC engine? Wow, dude, there was some engineering!
One thing that always turned me off about Japanese iron (then, more than now), was that they didn't offer a lot of choice. SIx-passenger seating? No can do. A coupe with a roomy back seat? No can do. I remember a co-worker's Prelude (about '83 vintage)..... I honestly remember the back of the driver's seat TOUCHING THE FRONT OF THE REAR SEAT BOTTOM CUSHION...MEANING ABSOLUTELY ZERO REAR SEAT LEGROOM!!!
Even when the [non-permissible content removed] started building larger cars, they didn't look like they were designed as a large car. They looked like cars that started out as small cars, then they "stretched" them. I still think, although to a lesser degree, that Japanese cars have an "alien" look to them that turns me off.
My Chevys haven't been perfect, but have been attractive (in my eyes), inexpensive to own with a reasonable amount of preventive maintenance, very easy to have serviced (three Chevy dealers within five miles of me in any direction) and since I travel a lot it is a comfort to know that any small town in the middle of nowhere will have a Chevy dealer...although I haven't needed one. My dealer has an excellent service department that doesn't shirk theirs (or GM's) responsibilities, and has gone to bat for me, outside of warranty.
On top of that, WWII might have ended 62 years ago, but there are thousands of people here still alive who remember us being attacked and the half-million American lives lost in the war. Sixty-two years is too soon in my mind to erase thinking about that when I decide where to spend my money on such a major purchase as a car. Will you guys in your 20's and 30's be buying Afghanistan or Iraq-built cars in thirty years?
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I was born in 1965 and witnessed first-hand the upheaval the U.S. auto industry went through in the 1970s and 1980s. Yes, I did notice a considerable decline in auto quality beginning with the 1973 model year. But the Japanese cars weren't really all that either. I lived in Philadelphia which has considerably milder winters than Michigan and Japanese cars were lucky to last through two winters. By the second winter, your average Japanese car had holes in the body the size of baseballs. By the fifth winter, (if it miraculously lasted that long) you could see the road go by through the huge holes in the floor. What the winter did to the bodies, the summer did to the interiors. I don't know what kind of materials Japanese manufacturers used, but seats and dash panels would split apart so badly that it looked as if somebody took a machete to the interior.
The Japanese cars had one thing going for them and that was fuel economy and that's it! Quality? Feh!
When I was younger I didn't want ANYBODY'S small car. I just couldn't stand the dorky look of those little hoopties. The only people I knew who drove them were girls, wimpy guys, or poor people. My first car was a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe. My first new car was a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic - a darn good car! Nobody could build a big car as well as GM!!! I still drive a 1988 Buick Park Avenue as a daily driver.
More than 34,000 GM workers left in 2006 by way of retirement or buyouts.
That is the only easy way to get rid of us old dudes.In our company they were trying to get rid of the number one guy in seniority. They offered a retirement package in 2005, 06 & 07. One guy took it in 05, I took it in 06 and they finally got who they wanted to leave last year. He retired on his 75th birthday. The last 10 years he just hung out at the warehouse drinking coffee collecting his $100k a year. Always said he would die on the job. The company only hires journeyman so it did not save them any wages. Just the new guys are easier to manipulate with the threat of layoff.
I can fully see that GM will be better off buying out the older employees. Experience only goes so far. I cannot imagine it being worth twice the pay. If they can get people to do the job for half it should help make GM competitive again.
Funny that you brought up the 1988 Accord, (the one with the flip-up lights) because I remember them being quite popular. Seemed everybody and his brother had one. It was that car that got me to notice Honda. A friend of mine had just purchased a 1988 Acura Legend a few months before I bought my Brougham. Flash forward 20 years and I wonder what happened to all those '88 Accords. Funny, my Brougham and Park Ave are still here. Did all those Accords migrate to the left coast?
I am neither pro nor con on union matters but I was born in 1943, have purchased 37 new GM cars since the first in 1965,some good, some not. These were Olds, Buicks, Cadillacs, Chevies, all the largest models, biggest engines etc. and still the same today.
I drove Crown Vics and Chevie Biscaynes every day at work for 32 years, while serving as a city police officer. Would a foreign car in the late 60's, 70's or 80's have served in this capacity, no way. I have nothing against people who buy foreign, but not for me obviously. I get my pension dollars paid to me in greenbacks, if American autos disappear, then I'll walk.
I hardly saw a japanese car in the 70s except for one Honda dealer in Atlanta, and the Accord impressed me even then...but I did not buy one until 1985
I can tell you first hand that the 1979 Honda Accord was a total POC. I was commuting 150 miles round trip to work in MN for 6 months. By 60k miles the engine was wore out. It had overheating problems from day one. You are lucky you waited to buy in 1985 or you would be a Honda hater as I am. I went back to work in AK and had to replace the rusted out Honda in 1982. Bought an 82 Escort that was a much more reliable car. My wife and kids put over 110k miles with no major problems. In 1988 I started buying full size GM trucks. I did not switch back to Japanese till this last year.
I do not think the UAW worker was the problem with poor quality during any period. It was at least 75% poor management. From the line supervisors to the CEO. That includes the managers that negotiated the UAW contracts. You cannot blame the Union for trying to get what they perceive as their fair share of the pie. I think to blame the Union is unrealistic. Do I believe that the company screwed up with agreeing to health care for retirees, yes. Do I believe that the company screwed up with jobs banks, paying people to sit in a rubber room and read funny papers, yes. Do I think buying this dead weight out is the smart thing to do, yes. Sounds like the management has finally figured out where the previous management screwed up.
The candidates for president have discovered Michigan and are all interested in Michigan, today at least. Amusing to read some of the comments in the DDN Click here (If you have to register, look up a registration at Bugmenot.com.)
It's amusing to read that an academic at Cleveland State University has figured out the major reason for the auto industry's decline in Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio. He says that unlike Honda other other transplants the companies have out-of-control costs for health care and penions and have not developed products that demand market share. DUH. It's great how we pay these intellectuals in Ohio.
It also mentions a street sweeper employee who is moving to Tennessee. He says, "Me and my wife (sic) are moving to Tennessee."
Neither union nor management is above reproach on that issue
Having been personally involved in two NLRB elections I would say the shady tactics were shared on both sides. The most memorable was when two Unions were vying for the same employees. The smaller group that I was a part of got the shaft. While the larger group of employees were given the royal treatment. The company stayed out of the fray though they were pleased that the Teamsters won the election. That gave RCA Global corporation the same Union world wide.
I do think Rocky is taking the downfall of unionism harder than most outside the Unions. Many workers that are non-union do not realize the sacrifices made many years ago that has given them wages and working conditions today that are much better than in the past. It is a swinging pendulum.
How could the UAW trade with Europe? GM and Ford have long-established facilities in Europe that produce vehicles that for the most part are far superior to what they offer here. Believe me, very little is made on this continent that Europeans would touch with a 10-foot pole, even if their gas cost the same as ours. They will never want anything but a few niche vehicles made here.
My first car was a 1953 Lincoln Cosmopolitan. Nothing but trouble. The shaft operating the electric windows regularly twisted and broke, the rear wheel bearings gave out (while on a trip), the rear floor got wet from road water and the engine suffered from "vapor lock" leaving me stuck in traffic too many times. My next car was an 8 year old 1949 Packard. It was built as solid as a rock. No squeaks, no rattles, no leaks and 100% reliable. Never had to replace the clutch. It also had advanced features like a glow in the dark speedometer and dash lettering. I think Detroit starting to go down hill in quality beginning in the early 1950's.
No, they're all down here. I see two or three of them every day, plus the occasional 1st-gen Legend. I strongly suspect that the 86-89 Accord has a much better survival rate than either the '88 Park Avenue or '89 Brougham.
Not up here they don't. There are still PLENTY of 1985-91 Buick Electras, Park Avenues, and LeSabres traversing the streets of Philadelphia. The old 1977-92 RWD Cadillacs also have a decent survival rate.
Isn't the real heart of the problem for the US auto industry the amount of time it has taken for the Big 3 to shift from large, poor mpg vehicles to a better selection of reasonable mpg vehicles?
Now that GM is leading the way with large hybrids and upcoming light diesel pick-ups, perhaps it's possible that the US automakers will stage a comeback. Sell Americans the cars we want (bigger) with mpg that makes sense? If the big 3 are stronger, the UAW gets stronger.
Can't complain about the mileage on my '88 Park Avenue. The car gets 29 MPG which is pretty good for a "large" car. The problem I see is that cars aren't necessarily getting bigger, but are getting heavier with all the extra stuff buyers demand not to mention all the added safety gear.
For example, my new Cadillac DTS Performance is a smaller car than my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, yet it weighs almost as much as the significantly larger car:
Comments
There's going to be a lot of "political" decisions made before you get to the jury.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I had a situation where I was standing next to a co-worker as our manager was going over our stats. When we install phone lines, they expect that no more than 4-5% of the customers will call back w/in a week w/ a problem of some sort. Well, my co-worker had only performed 3 installs the previous month as he was out w/ some malady. 1 customer called back to report a problem, meaning that month he had a repeat rate of 33%. Most installers do 60-80 a month. My boss was giving him a hard time about that 33% rate of his. I said, Russ, you can't be serious. 1 out of 3 is a statistical anomaly. You've got better things to do than bust balls over THAT. With that, he backed off, but you can see where he may have intimidated my co-worker, who only had a couple years in at the time.
Imadozal97, your statement is based on one anonymous person's post to that effect.
It is highly unlikely that anything like that is remotely true---leastwise it cannot be verified based on an isolated report.
It is misleading, and patently wrong to suggest anything like that is occurring in that context.
I doubt very much that it's true, especially since contemporary State Labor Standards Legislation prevents such discrimination on the basis of age, religion, race, non pre-existing medical problems, or dismissal without cause.
Comment:... It's not unusual to hear stories like that when organizing campaigns are being held at a non union plant...Georgetown for example had one in 07.
It happens...too often--and that's one of the under-the-table deeds where unions get tagged with negatives!!!!
So are you calling the Georgetown, Toyota workers liars and this never happened or never happens ????
I doubt very much that it's true, especially since contemporary State Labor Standards Legislation prevents such discrimination on the basis of age, religion, race, non pre-existing medical problems, or dismissal without cause.
I'm not sure which country/state your living in but the one I'm living in silverfox5, those laws are rarely enforced. In Canada, they might be but in the Southern USA, NLRB and even here in pro-union Michigan, labor charges are lightly investigated. Unless it's done on a large scale those "issues" are just documented and that's about all that happens. Haworth, Steelcase, Herman Miller, Gentex, Johnson Controls Inc., Lear, has been accused of weeding out the elderly and replacing them with young, less pay and benefits workforce.
Even my former employers management under secrecy has went on record of saying the company wants to keep you for 5 years and then find a way to get rid of you !!!! Of course I'm expecting to be accused of making this up !!! :sick:
-Rocky
Carry on!
As for older workers being forced out. You bectha. The problem isn’t age, but health. In manufacturing if you are not healthy there is a big problem because there really are not a lot of light duty jobs around. Once a person’s health starts to go there sometimes isn’t much choice about it. And sadly not everyone’s health will start to go after retirement.
Older workers are more experienced and that counts for a lot but the place I worked at had many banged up folks and not enough younger workers at all.
It was stated earlier about losing our manufacturing base...in principle, I absolutely agree that we need our foundries and steel mills, no matter how much they pollute, our iron mines, no matter how dangerous they are, and our factories or else we may find that we are trying to build B2 bombers to protect us fron China with steel that we may no longer buy from China if they become a hostile enemy...imagine if we had to buy our steel from Germany prior to WWII, how could we build all those planes in Ypsilanti if our ebemy had the steel???
Having said that, and I do believe it, it has been difficult to keep that in mind as our automobile quality dropped severely in the 70s, 80s, and 90s...while this is not meant to bash the UAW (even tho I usually do, and they were a major cause of the assembled junk they tried to sell us), when Americans purchased Hondas and Toyotas, they believed they were buying autos with the quality that was severely lacking in GM/Ford/Chrysler products...
The byproduct of this, or, if you will, the law of unintended consequences means that we are losing our manufacturing and industrial base simply because of a desire to avoid what the buyer thought was American-made junk...the guy buying an Accord was simply avoiding Big 3 crap, and was not thinking of destroying the American industrial base...
Considering that an auto is the second largest purchase most of us will ever make, and one that we will make repetitively, we want to buy what we think is a quality purchase...even rocky knows that American quality had slipped over the decades and most buyers that bought imports were impressed with them, enough to swear off Big 3 products forever...that is why the Big 3 have such a challenge ahead of them...they can't just make products "as good as the japanese"...their products must BE BETTER than the Japanese in order to win over the import buyers because they had been burned too often in the past...at 29 years old, rocky cannot understand this because he did not live thru the UAW junk years of the 70s and 80s, which is why he also cannot understand the misery index of Jimmy Carter, why he was such a poor President, and how Reagan restored this nation's pride...he did not live it, he read about it in Time magazine, who never forgave Reagan for calling the Soviets the "evil empire"...
To the average guy like me, spending my money on a junk American product was a simple waste of money...to this day, I believe that the union and their arrogance and unwillingness to change was more of the cause of the decline in quality than poor management...after all, you can fire the one guy at the top and be done with it, but firing all those employees takes more time...
So, I am faced with a challenge...do I buy American to save my neighbor's job when my neighbor, IMO, goes out of his way to make junk that is a waste of my money, and thereby help save the American industrial base, or do I spend my money on what I (and apparently millions like me) believe to be a superior product, causing my neighbor to lose his union-protected job, but having a product that is better made, runs better, has better resale value, better mpg, but happens to contribute to the destruction of our industrial base???
The macroeconomic view is this: We (America) can't afford the loss of our industrial base...
The microeconomic view is this: I (me and my personal budget) can't afford to buy American Union junk that costs more to run and will have to be replaced sooner, costing me even more than any Japanese product ever would, taking ever more of my disposable income over my lifetime...
The solution (in the mind of each individual): I will buy the quality Japanese product, but there will be enough Americans who can be duped into buying union junk that our industrail base will be preserved...
The problem: so many could not be duped into buying the union product that our industrial base is, indeed, waning...
Extrapolating that view, one could blame the arrogance of the UAW and their junk product as the underlying reason for their own job losses and the progressive loss of our industrial base...if they hadn't made such junk that they virtually FORCED us to look elsewhere for quality (while they stuck their heads in the sand and thought they could advertise their way to quality with slogans like "Quality is Job One" or "Buy American and Save your Neighbor's Job") we would still have a thriving Big 3 auto industry and our industrial base...
But, as Big 3 auto sales dropped, we did not need as much steel, so the steelworkers went, and we did not need as much iron, and so on, and so on...
On a macroeconomic level, one could make an argument that the stubbornness of the UAW, allowing them to raise costs with restrictive work rules and the junk product they assembled was the underlying cause of the loss of the American industrial base...
Bottom line: if the quality of the cars in the 70s and 80s was not below boat anchor material, the japanese would have had a much more difficult time to establish a beachhead because their products would not have stood out against American products...but the japanese had a cakewalk because all they had to do was make a car door close with a "thunk" instead of a metallic "clang" and it was obvious that their cars were better...
The Americans have been playing catch up for over 25 years, which is an awful lot of car buyers who may never consider them again after being burned multiple times in the 70s and 80s...
Some of you may blame management...it was the union, specifically the UAW, that is the true underlying cause for the failure of Americans to buy American junk products, which led to the obvious eventual decline of the American industrial base...
That is what one might call an economic analysis...and I ain't even no economist...:):):):):)
I'm only assuming you are sort of new to the game here on edmunds ?
Well I don't like to speak for others that often but imidazol97, for the last few years and on previous UAW forums we've had here on edmunds has posted links to allegations and story's involving the Georgetown Toyota Plant. These peoplewere interviewed and they told their side of the story. Sure Toyota, management can spin the story and try to disprove the credibility of the allegations of the employees but based on personal experience and having I, family, and friends, work for the large company's like the ones I listed above at one time or another well I'm here to tell you it's quite common. One of my family members got carpal tunnel from the un ergonomic, reptitive work and she works for one of the employers above. They tried everything they could to try to get her to quit, tried to deny her medical coverage on surgery for her wrists and hands from the carpal tunnel. It got so bad that still to this day she has lost feeling in her finger tips because they delayed the surgery. She even talked to a attorney because of the harrassment at work and all the tears shed. Her employer silverfox5, has used her carpal tunnel fight against her still to this day and she got a $0.07 raise last review. Up until the carpal tunnel case she got average raises like everybody else so the moral of my story is silverfox5, and even you marsha7, that the corruption I've witnessed in my short life of 29 years has been very personal. Yeah, I may not of been old enough to remember Jimmy Carter, but I do remember some of the Reagan years. I agree Carter, wasn't a good president but I never have said he was but I also believe Reagan, was not as great as many like you guys want me to believe.
I know you and marsha7, love to get my goat !!!! You guys do a good job at times to try to rile me up and should make a reasonable assumption that nobody even you guys aren't crazy enough to believe some of the propaganda you type and I should take it with a grain of salt.
-Rocky
The bottom line is how is Toyota/Lexus Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura, Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes/Maybach, Hyundai/Kia, Audi/Porsche/Volkswagon, to name a few able to make large profits using unionized labor some of which has tighter work rules than the UAW. I over the last couple of years find myself bringing up this point eventually. In Europe, the employees work 35 hour work weeks which includes company paid breakfast, beer at lunch, get a automatic month of vacation time, aren't required to work weekends, get pension benefits. In Japan, they the long vacation breaks, nap time, pensions, company stores, housing schools, etc. but some how their company's make large profits.
Is it really the unions fault like marsha7, says silverfox5 ??? Why are the Europeans/Japanese, able to use unioniozed labor and not the U.S. ???? Do you think the tariffs, trade barriers, currency manipulation, not play any sort of role ??? I ask you guys to spend as much time as I and others have in the past looking into these issues instead of believing everything you read in the newspaper, much of which is a written publication from the company and the paper runs with it to have a hot "story".
I have belonged to a few unions in my life. All but one of them good or as good as they could be given the circumstances at the time. A union is only as strong as it's membership. I OTOH, have grown up around unions my whole life and got to listen to my uncles, aunts, grandparents, discuss "work" at the family dinner table and a lot of it wasn't pretty. A constant battle between union and managment. Issues that range from discrimination, health and safety issues, medical, pay, benefits, retirement, productivity, grievances, work suggestions, to name a few. Let's not forget politics !!!!
-Rocky
Like I said, some things that happen ain't pretty--but they happen.
Rumors get tossed around freely, signup documents are mysteriously forged, workplace complaint frequency increases dramatically, intimidating phone calls are made,.....I think you know what I'm talking about.
You also know that Union officials profess they don't condone these tactics, but in reality they do little to stop them.
In my entire career, I've never heard of any union sanction against any member anywhere for doing things like that---so what does that tell us?
Since voting for unionization by secret ballot and requiring 66% to gain approval is required I think your allegations are pretty far fetched and un true silverfox5.
Again, I'd love to know where you get this information ??? :confuse: It has to be from a Pro-Mises press clipping :confuse:
(Especially what you just wrote about certain privileges for workers in Europe---those are mostly untrue--at least in the Europe I worked in for three years!!)
I can't speak to the case re your family member---for the simple reason that I know nothing of the facts, and you certainly haven't fully disclosed them--however i will say what you attribute to "corruption" isn't necessarily one sided in many similar cases.
Well the bottom line is my relative was injured from doing her job. They have a high known carpal tunnel rate and they made her jump through hoops for many extra months before they decided to treat her. It wasn't until their backs were against the wall they decided to treat her. They tried blaming it on a previous employer she worked for but she did not do the repetitive work with her hands like she has done with this employer.
Using your family member's unfortunate situation as, somehow, proof of the "allegations" at the Georgetown plant, carries little weight in insisting it's true.
Was trying to show you work related incidents in non-union shops does happen and injured, the elderly, and high paid, are shown the door. :sick:
-Rocky
Why are Germans bailing out of Germany if it is so great? I can tell you. Socialism is a poor excuse for a country to adopt if they want people to be motivated. The Union mentality can become socialistic if not kept in check.
German emigrants dream about new beginning overseas
Tuesday, December 25, 2007
An upward trend of emigration among Germans reveals its signs in the attention the ‘Goodbye Deutschland’ program enjoys. Germans seem to be eager to start a new life abroad
They flee Berlin for sunny California, dream of opening a restaurant in Cambodia, or attempt to set up as horse-breeders in Tuscany -- never in the past 50 years have so many Germans been so eager to start a new life abroad.
The trend has even sparked its own television reality show "Goodbye Deutschland!" (Goodbye Germany), watched by millions, a program that follows the daily travails of Germans taking their first steps abroad, an adventure which at least 155,000 Germans embarked on last year, up 32 percent compared to five years ago.
"All the large industrial countries are similarly affected, but it's even more marked in Germany where, according to a number of international surveys, people are less satisfied than elsewhere," according to Thomas Straubhaar, a Hamburg economics professor.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=91993
20 years in Alaska was "abroad" enough for me I guess.
155,000 expats a year out of 82 million German citizens doesn't sound like much of a bail-out.
In UAW news, "By 2011, he said, GM may even cut its U.S. hourly labor costs below those of archrival Toyota Motor Corp." (GM to save most from pact)
I am thankful my last 37 years was in a strong Union. Social Security will not cover most people's food bills with the way prices are headed up. I'm glad I have a wheelbarrow to carry the money to the store for a loaf of bread.
But, seriously, even with poor management, I simply recall that in many of my dealings with UAW members while I lived in Detroit 1980-1990, they had the most arrogant attitude I ever came across in any one "group" of people, and it was obvious, to me, IMO, that they were brainwashed that they made the best products when they were falling apart and sounded like junk...when I would ask them to sit in my 1986 Accord and tell me why they couldn't/wouldn't make something that quiet, that solid, they would avoid the car like a child would avoid a dark closet at night...THEY WERE AFRAID OF IT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE...these were adults that would not sit in the seat of their Japanese competition, but they would tell me they made the best cars in the world...sorry, but they made junk and eventually the market would scream loud enough that they had no choice but to hear the roar...
You can blame mgmt, but the folks who made the cars, IMO, shared at least 75% of the blame for the crap...it wasn't the poor design, it was the cars were put together like nobody cared, because, quite frankly, nobody cared...
rocky is at a severe disadvantge...he stated he is 29 years old...if that is true, he was born in 1979...the worst American cars, with GM making the majority, were buily approx 1970-1990 (plus or minus)...that means while growing up in a GM unionized household, he was brainwashed by family and friends about how "great" their cars were in the very years he was in diapers...he missed the 1970s, and was only 11 in 1990, so anything he thinks he knows is simply parental brainwashing, since he was too young to do anything except cry when he was hungry and needed a diaper change...if he was born in 1979, he literally knows NOTHING about the cars he speaks about, because he was too young to comprehend anything about them, and he would not have been driving until 1995...so, keep in mind, if he really is 29, any comments about the Japanese invasion in the 1980s, or the crap GM made in the 70s and 80s are simply stories he read in his union fairy tale books, because he did not live it except as an infant in his diapers...now in my mid-50s, I did live it, and I sold auto parts for my father's auto parts store in the 1970s, and, when we saw the junk that GM built, I can assure you, no sane person would want to buy it, once they understood what crap they made...it did not take too long, as no sane folks wanted American cars because of the junk they were made...
That is something rocky, for his supposed youth, cannot comprehend, as he only received the union side of the issue, and probably never knew anyone who was a nonunion person, simply because union families associated with union families...so all he knows is rah-rah for GM from stories told to him by Dad and Grandpa, but his actual life experience with the junk is nonexistent, as he was too young to know...this is not said to irritate anybody, but if he is 29, then he cannot comment on something he was too young to experience except by rumors and stories told to him by his unionized family...who knows, the folks that were afraid to sit in my Honda may have been some of his family, and they had no idea what Japan was doing, as they could not get over their childlike fear of an import car...how foolish, childish and immature they were...afraid of sitting in a car, as tho the steering wheel might bite them...
I was born in 1978 marsha7, and while you might think I lived in a bubble and was to young to understand a little about the world, you are using poor judgement and I find it a little insulting. My great aunt sold toyota forklifts, and drove those Japanese made POS's of the 80's. If those Japanese POS's saw 2 winters with road salt their sheetmetal would turn to powder.
Outside of the barbs at my youth, intellegence, and ability to comprehend, I found your short story quite hilarious.
silverfox5's story OTOH well I'm not sure what to say about that one ??? :surprise: I guess I question the integrity of the author behind it as it seems far fetched as I have been to a organizing campaign a time or two with a grandparent.
So now you blame 75% of the crap made by GM, which in comparison to the stuff Toyota, Daihatsu, Honda, Nissan, brought over here. GM, had a few bad cars from the late 70's through the 80's that really stuck in the minds. Toyota, also with their manipulation was able to severely under cut the big 3. If domestic automobiles were such crap and the Japanese, were so superior then why in the heck do I not see any vintage superior japanese cars from the 70's and 80's ??? I see Domestics and Europeans from that era but no rice burners. :confuse: Oh excuse me I saw a Lexus, at Mickey D's about a month or so ago that was from the late 80's early 90's based on a camry.
The japanese quality you speak about didn't show up until the early-mid 90's and then I would agree they made marginally better cars and that wasn't every model. Ford, sure did sell a lot of Taurus's, if the japanese made such better cars. Why isn't Toyota, the #1 brand here in the U.S. if they are so superior ??? :confuses
So that is my response when people try to soley put the blame on the UAW workers like marsha7, has !!!
On a side note the big 3 didn't hide their recalls and quality issues like toyota, did in the 90's to give a flawless perception that is being reversed today by all the tranny issues, engine sludge, frames that bend like fishing rods.
-Rocky
-Rocky
Thanks Steve, keep up the good work !!!
The I don’t remember Japanese cars of the 80ies being rust prone and I live in an area where they aggressively salt the roads. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Japanese cars of the 70ies were rust buckets but the Japanese learned how to fix that problem pretty quick. Also by the mid 80ies the Japanese were charging more for their cars than the domestics.
The domestics had major quality issues in the 80ies due to major changes in the industry and the domestics took far too long to address those issues. I don't blame the UAW, but bad managment.
Same goes for a friends parent's '87 or '88 (can't remember exactly) Accord LX-i. It drove much better than any comparable domestic I was used to. Not to mention how much better Honda's 4cyl's were than the Ford and GM 4 bangers I was used to. I think the key was Honda only made 4 cyl cars back then and all of the domestic 4 cyl engines flat out sucked. Back then GMs full-size B bodys or whatever they were called were not bad. It was GM and Fords economy cars that were terrible and that is where Honda was competing and cleaning up.
My family as a whole bought only domestics, and I suffered through many of them. My first car was a '75 Buick Regal, then I ended up with an '86 Escort while in HS. Was reliable, but far from anything Asian's were bringing over.
Ford didn't get a 4cyl worth a crap until they investing in Mazda and started using some of their engines.
And don't bring up the Iron Duke or the Quad 4. GARBAGE. I knew to many people back then that had bad luck with them.
I hardly saw a japanese car in the 70s except for one Honda dealer in Atlanta, and the Accord impressed me even then...but I did not buy one until 1985 (Prelude) and then 1986 (Accord, 4 Door), and they were great cars...
For any good American car that your relatives may tell you, their own union inherent bias will not permit them to tell you about how good the japanese cars were, simply because they had their heads in the sand...frankly, they only saw their own products, so you could argue that they were the best products THEY ever saw, because they could not even LOOK at an import, literally turning their heads if they saw one...so, yeah, when your family says that they never saw a car made better than theirs, they are, literally, correct...frankly, they never stopped to look...
You might argue anything you want, but one thing you cannot argue...folks changed over to the imports because they were not happy with what Big 3 were selling them...you were too young to really know how much resentment I saw from Detroit people who were not associated with the carmakers..."who are THEY to tell me what to buy?"..."how can they make such junk and have the nerve to tell me I should buy it to save their jobs?"...
One thing your entire family and circle of friends lacks is the insight and awareness of the resentment from people in Detroit (not auto related people) who were visibly upset at the thought of buying American junk...I learned that union people hang out with union people, simply because you think alike...but when the quality of your product is questioned, you literally have no idea because, well, you only hang out with your own and you really are quite naive as to the dissatisfaction with the quality of your product...even extensive layoffs due to lack of sales did not open your eyes for over 20 years...it is like the UAw put up a wall around any criticism of their product, so hear no evil, see no evil...now, they are finally seeing the light...and it's about time...
rocky, you can rah-rah GM all you want, and, NOW, their products ARE better, and we can be thankful for that...but, you are simply too young to really know anything about the 70s and 80s (which is where the reputation for crap was established and folks over 40 still have long memories...screw me once shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me), except for stories you heard from union family members, the same ones who would look away if a Honda passed them on the road and could not understand why the imports were inherently better...if nothing else, with doors that closed solidly and 4 cyl engines that hummed instead of clanged, they certainly gave the instant impression that they were better made, and, in my experience, and thousands like me, the cars were better...
Graph the growth of the Japanese imports and you must realize that many of these were sales that the Big 3 lost...they didn't lose them because no one liked Ford Red, they lost them because they made junk, and many folks caught on once they saw a superior product...face it, if the Japanese car was NO BETTER than the Big 3, folks would have bought one and, dissatisfied, returned to Big 3 product...but you know and I know that there is a substantial portion of folks who will NEVER look American again, simply because of the well-earned reputation for junk the Big 3 took over 20 years to establish and reinforce, and are just now starting to work their way out of it...
If you were old enough to drive the junk we did, your opinions would be different...then again, if you would have been the one who turned your head at the sight of a Honda, maybe you would have the same lack of knowledge as you do now...argue all you want, but your youth means you weren't there, and are hardly qualified to comment on product quality that you know nothing about...present quality, yes, but what we dealt with 20 years ago, you literally have no idea...
Let's put this in perspective...I bought my first Honda in 1985, that makes you 7 years old...yeah, I am quite sure you are aware of American automobile quality as compared to imports as you enter the second grade...sorry, dude, your credibility for commenting on the past is shot to h*ll...
We still welcome your comments on products made after, say, 1995, but on anything before that, your diapers speak louder than you do... :P
Oh, and your current political opinions are valid, too, but anything about Carter and Reagan is off limits...let's just call it the "Diaper Factor"...LOL...man, I just slay me...
-Rocky
I would agree with that. There is not much put together like an old Buick or a Chevy Caprice. They are extremely well built, but woe to those who purchase the stuff on the smaller end like the escort, cavalier, tempo\topaz. That is where the domestic’s biggest problems are.
The problem is that those small cars tend to be either one’s first car or perhaps a second car purchased for yourself or your wife. Their bad reputation hurt future buyers. It was the tempo that drove my mom into the arms of the Japanese. She would never have bought a Japanese car in the 70ies or early 80ies.
That is the current challenge for Big 3 to win back market share...they did not lose market share simply by random accident...there was, and is, a strong belief that our quality was/is inferior, and we have to work doubly hard to show, not that we can MATCH the Japanese, but that we can SURPASS the Japanese...
If all we can do is match them, that is no reason for one to desert japanese cars for American...we must be better, and it is incumbent on the union to cooperate, or they will be the master of their own destruction...
The bottom line is it's ticking you off that I have knowledge of the 80's and your diaper spin is not going to take away from that no matter how you Bill O'Reilly my response.
The bottom line is the yuppies on the left coast thought it would be cool to buy japananese automobiles not because they were better but it was a trend. Toyota, finally by the early 90's invested heavily in propaganda and hid recalls from their owners. When you have your recalls fixed during routine service of course you can paint a rosy picture of flawlessness. If those Accords were so fantastic tell that to my buddy Joe, who had his dash split on his early 90's Accord. Iagree it was smoother and agree the quad 4 sucked but the hard plastic was no different than what was found in a Cavalier. To say the least that puppy was pretty badly rusted after it was 6 years old. Rusted through holes but of course since it came from Honda, it must be superior. I guess you and Barbara Boxer, feel the same on that issue as she is a honda spokesmouth also. :P
So yeah, you can disregard my credibility of that era all you want marsha7, but talking to others like lemko, imidazol97, 1487, who weren't wearing diapers like you say I was well have a different take than the one you gave me. Find me an 88' Accord, in the rust belt that looks as good as lemko's Park Avenue or better yet like his 89' Cadillac Brougham !!!! :P
What the cat's got your tongue ???
-Rocky
Well Pol Pot, I mean Roger Smith, wasn't that great of a CEO, thus that didn't help matters. :sick:
-Rocky
Some of us have all the answers but leave out ones that would really make a noticable difference and you didn't have to wear diapers 29 years ago to figure that out !!!
-Rocky
One thing that always turned me off about Japanese iron (then, more than now), was that they didn't offer a lot of choice. SIx-passenger seating? No can do. A coupe with a roomy back seat? No can do. I remember a co-worker's Prelude (about '83 vintage)..... I honestly remember the back of the driver's seat TOUCHING THE FRONT OF THE REAR SEAT BOTTOM CUSHION...MEANING ABSOLUTELY ZERO REAR SEAT LEGROOM!!!
Even when the [non-permissible content removed] started building larger cars, they didn't look like they were designed as a large car. They looked like cars that started out as small cars, then they "stretched" them. I still think, although to a lesser degree, that Japanese cars have an "alien" look to them that turns me off.
My Chevys haven't been perfect, but have been attractive (in my eyes), inexpensive to own with a reasonable amount of preventive maintenance, very easy to have serviced (three Chevy dealers within five miles of me in any direction) and since I travel a lot it is a comfort to know that any small town in the middle of nowhere will have a Chevy dealer...although I haven't needed one. My dealer has an excellent service department that doesn't shirk theirs (or GM's) responsibilities, and has gone to bat for me, outside of warranty.
On top of that, WWII might have ended 62 years ago, but there are thousands of people here still alive who remember us being attacked and the half-million American lives lost in the war. Sixty-two years is too soon in my mind to erase thinking about that when I decide where to spend my money on such a major purchase as a car. Will you guys in your 20's and 30's be buying Afghanistan or Iraq-built cars in thirty years?
Bill
The Japanese cars had one thing going for them and that was fuel economy and that's it! Quality? Feh!
That is the only easy way to get rid of us old dudes.In our company they were trying to get rid of the number one guy in seniority. They offered a retirement package in 2005, 06 & 07. One guy took it in 05, I took it in 06 and they finally got who they wanted to leave last year. He retired on his 75th birthday. The last 10 years he just hung out at the warehouse drinking coffee collecting his $100k a year. Always said he would die on the job. The company only hires journeyman so it did not save them any wages. Just the new guys are easier to manipulate with the threat of layoff.
I can fully see that GM will be better off buying out the older employees. Experience only goes so far. I cannot imagine it being worth twice the pay. If they can get people to do the job for half it should help make GM competitive again.
I drove Crown Vics and Chevie Biscaynes every day at work for 32 years, while serving as a city police officer. Would a foreign car in the late 60's, 70's or 80's have served in this capacity, no way. I have nothing against people who buy foreign, but not for me obviously. I get my pension dollars paid to me in greenbacks, if American autos disappear, then I'll walk.
I can tell you first hand that the 1979 Honda Accord was a total POC. I was commuting 150 miles round trip to work in MN for 6 months. By 60k miles the engine was wore out. It had overheating problems from day one. You are lucky you waited to buy in 1985 or you would be a Honda hater as I am. I went back to work in AK and had to replace the rusted out Honda in 1982. Bought an 82 Escort that was a much more reliable car. My wife and kids put over 110k miles with no major problems. In 1988 I started buying full size GM trucks. I did not switch back to Japanese till this last year.
I do not think the UAW worker was the problem with poor quality during any period. It was at least 75% poor management. From the line supervisors to the CEO. That includes the managers that negotiated the UAW contracts. You cannot blame the Union for trying to get what they perceive as their fair share of the pie. I think to blame the Union is unrealistic. Do I believe that the company screwed up with agreeing to health care for retirees, yes. Do I believe that the company screwed up with jobs banks, paying people to sit in a rubber room and read funny papers, yes. Do I think buying this dead weight out is the smart thing to do, yes. Sounds like the management has finally figured out where the previous management screwed up.
It's amusing to read that an academic at Cleveland State University has figured out the major reason for the auto industry's decline in Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio. He says that unlike Honda other other transplants the companies have out-of-control costs for health care and penions and have not developed products that demand market share. DUH. It's great how we pay these intellectuals in Ohio.
It also mentions a street sweeper employee who is moving to Tennessee. He says, "Me and my wife (sic) are moving to Tennessee."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Having been personally involved in two NLRB elections I would say the shady tactics were shared on both sides. The most memorable was when two Unions were vying for the same employees. The smaller group that I was a part of got the shaft. While the larger group of employees were given the royal treatment. The company stayed out of the fray though they were pleased that the Teamsters won the election. That gave RCA Global corporation the same Union world wide.
I do think Rocky is taking the downfall of unionism harder than most outside the Unions. Many workers that are non-union do not realize the sacrifices made many years ago that has given them wages and working conditions today that are much better than in the past. It is a swinging pendulum.
Think the question should be would the Iraqis buy American built?
If I remember right we invaded Iraq...
Bill P.
But they did declare war on several of our allies.
Spin it anyway you want, we shouldn't be in the business of invading countries that don't attack us or our allies.
The original statement was that we should not buy Japanese vehicles because they attacked us.
Now that GM is leading the way with large hybrids and upcoming light diesel pick-ups, perhaps it's possible that the US automakers will stage a comeback. Sell Americans the cars we want (bigger) with mpg that makes sense?
If the big 3 are stronger, the UAW gets stronger.
For example, my new Cadillac DTS Performance is a smaller car than my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, yet it weighs almost as much as the significantly larger car:
1989 Cadillac Brougham
Weight: 4,156 lbs.
Length: 221 inches
Wheelbase: 121.5 inches
Width: 76.5 inches
2007 Cadillac DTS
Weight: 4,009 lbs.
Length: 207.6 inches
Wheelbase: 115.6 inches
Width: 74.8 inches