Let's go a little farther and Unionize all people involved in building a house. A friend contracted to build an 800 sq foot HUD house for the city of Atlanta. He gave them a price using his subs that have been doing work for him for years. They told him he had to use union workers all the way. The price went up 2 times his original quote. To put that in real world terms. A house that might sell today for $200K would jump to $400k with your union. Is that what you want?
That is totally B.S.and your friend is showing you his true anti-union colors. Hell immigrant day-laborers get paid $9-11 an hour and if you know anything about house building the labor part isn't that large of a slice of the cost pie unless you are a do nothing "car window" builder. But even those folks make a good living if they have enough projects going on.
Promote your union mentality and you will find that you are no longer middle class. You are making the same as the lowest paying jobs with their unions.
WOW !!!:D Now we are seeing which direction you are spinning this....Actually it was predictable.
My belief is that todays Unions should deal with work place conditions and encouraging the employers through negotiation to make education available to the employees.
The typical anti-union line of education, education, education, and after you are retrained and jump ship Moses, from India, tells your boss he will do it for half as much thus you are unemployed anyways. :confuse: Some of these people that preach this agenda are going to fine out all to soon or their kids will exactly what I'm talking about. 20-30 million more jobs are predicted to be gone by the end of the next decade if we keep on this current economic cycle. :sick:
Such as helping or paying for trade schools and/or college tuition, Health benefits, retirement of some type, 401Ks and so forth.
Well the UAW, has done what you are talking about but it's not just the union shops whom are having their jobs shipped to India, China, Bangledesh. The Toyota Georgetown, workers might learn soon enough what it's like to have your standard of living axed in half and then what will those anti-union brown nosing suckers that believed that the UAW was evil will say !!!! :sick: :sick: :sick: Your company didn't take care of you like you believed and I don't want to hear the whining !!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Twist it any way you wish!
Kip
I'm afraid he wasn't doing the twisting this time........
Love the post pal !!! Some of that stuff like the Harvard tuition I had no clue about. Only $1,250 :surprise:
My parents first house they bought was like in 1980 or 81 and it cost $25K and my father thought that was expensive. That same house today would cost you $100K. Dad, said he could of bought a much larger one on a lake for like $38K and that same house is easily worth over $200K.
Well, one thing that made a difference for a lot of WWII vets was the GI Bill. My girlfriend's father and my Grandpop took advantage of it and did well as a result. I ended up in my career pretty much the way you describe. I was laid-off when my company folded in 1991 and retrained for another job. I'm doing pretty well now.
I very much agree that one needs marketable skills these days to get ahead. Maybe the 1950s and 1960s were the Glory Days for a guy just getting his high school diploma or coming out of the armed services. I remember a lot of guys making the commute to the Allentown-Bethlehem area to work at Bethlehem Steel or to Fairless Hills to the U.S. Steel works.
My Dad did alright until he was laid-off in 1998 at the age of 60. He did take advantage of retraining as an electrical technician and actually graduated at the top of his class. He got a job at Quaker Oats as a maintenance electrician and then retired. Funny thing Dad told me is that he wasted 24 years of his life at the job he had prior to Quaker. If he had worked for Quaker the entire time, he'd have had an awesome retirement package.
Ah the good ole days ! Yep I remember talking with a co-worker, actually in 1978 that a little piece on the news said that in a few years, the average car would cost $15K. Didn't much believe that would happen. Bought a brand new '64 GTO for $3250. In 78 a new Olds Cutlass cost me a little over $6k. Should have seen then how the $15K was a very real possibility.
"That, along with the $25 burger is fine with me, PROVIDED that my wage is commensurate with those prices. You see, it sounds as if you look at the price ALONE ($400k house and $25 burger) and go :surprise: "
I understand what you are saying. My point is that everybody can't be middle class just because they have a union. Certain jobs are only worth so much. If you and I are rocking along at our incomes and suddenly the Fast Foods Workers Union develops, and those folks start making 4-5 times what they are making now. Well.....! Then the UAW gets all excited because burger flippers are making as much as wheel hangers and so forth. Something about runaway inflation!
I realize there is absolutely no way that a "dyed in the wool" union member is going to agree with me, and I don't expect them to do so. I worked for Western Electric for 3 1/2 years in days of yore. Had a good taste of Union Life. Not for me! I don't want to get a raise because everybody else did. I want the raise or promotion because I earned it. I don't want someone else deciding for me and a couple of hundred others what "WE" can get. I preferred to do that for myself. If I'm not happy, I can leave. I also don't care for someone "suggesting" whom I should vote for.
Now, this all started by my stating my views that the UAW bullying tactics have contributed to the possible demise of the auto industry in Detroit. I also included management being seriously over paid and over staffed. Then a couple of folks come along and want to twist what I said. I don't think you, cooterbfd, intended to do that.
Anyone that actually believes the union has not contributed to problems with the Big 3 might need to ask themselves, why the UAW god has suddenly decided that new hire lower wages are now acceptable.
"He said he thought you believed that some workers should be paid more than others."
He got that part right! Do you actually believe that an inexperienced person should make the same as an experienced one. A new hire should make the same as a 20 year veteran? A wheel hanger should make the same as a transmission builder? The person that goes the extra mile should make the same as the guy that just gets by? I don't !
"So here ya go off the deep-end and is why I can't take you seriously".
Rocky, you haven't taken anything I said seriously since, and including my first post where I had the gall to speak against the UAW god !
"With all do respect Kip, I think it does have a lot to do with the situation."
With all do respect Rocky it has nothing to do with the point. The point was that These management empires help to destroy companies, just as too many overpaid worker bees do. The point was that 400 staff were not needed in my region and probably not in the other 3 USA regions either. That is a possibility of nearly 1600 fairly high priced spreads Nation wide, that were unnessary. imidazol97' asked what the assembly line workers were earning. . Whether the assembly line workers were making $5 an hour or $50 an hour has absolutely nothing to do with those unnessary empires.
My "Yeah right" comment was toward his saying something about companies only looking after friends, relatives, and sucky noses, or something like that. It was really not even worth the "Yeah right"!
Rocky, do you ever actually read what I'm commenting to, or is it just that you want to try to nail me out of context, because I don't like the UAW god? :shades:
Never mind, I know! You are mad because my son bought a Ridgeline.
"As far as the food growing part of it goes I've seen studies that if american's paid an extra $30 dollars a year for their fruits and vegetables farm workers could be paid about $15-18 dollars an hour thus eliminating the illegal alien issue."
Yep, I've read something along those lines too. Of course the illegals would be willing to work for $14 an hour and would still get hired. :sick: Gotta think that if a farmer has 100 workers in his fields and he can save $1 an hour on each one, that is $800 a day saved.
This has nothing to do with our debate, but whom did the UAW endorse for presidential candidate?
Thanks, Kip (good grief, another box of snakes opened )
Post # 2310 of 2321 I agree on both points. Do you think the McDonald employees should earn middle class wages. Should they be payed middle class wages for flippin burgers? Throw a union in the mix and you and I can pay $15 for a Big Mac. While we are at it, lets raise the salaries of everybody involved in growing the food, harvesting the food, processing it, and delivering it to McDonalds. Lets raise them to middle class levels and you can pay $25 for that burger.
I think you need to re examine who brought up the farm example before you go "heel" on me.
I don't want to get a raise because everybody else did. I want the raise or promotion because I earned it. I don't want someone else deciding for me and a couple of hundred others what "WE" can get.
I see your point there, as well as with promotions. However, considering no system for this is perfect, getting a steady raise (more like a COLA) isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering that a merit based system can (at times) be fraudulent. Worked at a marina in the late 80's and we were ALL told no raises this year as it was a tough year. Yet one woman in the office got a $1.25 raise. Next thing we know, the Marina mgr. separates from his wife and these 2 are dating (guess knee pads are expensive). :surprise:
Now, this all started by my stating my views that the UAW bullying tactics have contributed to the possible demise of the auto industry in Detroit. I also included management being seriously over paid and over staffed. Then a couple of folks come along and want to twist what I said. I don't think you, cooterbfd, intended to do that.
No, I'm not, even though I tend to agree w/ Rocky far more than others. a local talk show host brought up a point about how Gov't should keep far away from business as it can (in regards to tax breaks for businesses). I believe he's right, unless they are trying to do the will of the people (ie. safety issues). The problem is, with "states rights" we have 50 states "competing" against one another instead of working together as a "Union" (no pun- in a Patriotic sense). This, as well as differences in traditional lifestyles puts traditionally union northern states at a disadvantage to southern states which are traditionally non union farming states that provided raw materials for the north's industrial base.
One other thing: We seem to criticize unions for 'bullying tactics" to get into a company, yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for a company to shmooze lawmakers into making laws that are less "worker friendly".
One other thing: We seem to criticize unions for 'bullying tactics" to get into a company, yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for a company to shmooze lawmakers into making laws that are less "worker friendly".
It does seem to me that there are more laws on the books that protect employees from employer abuse than the other way around. If you are referring to programs that become corporate welfare such as the latest Energy bills I would agree. There was little in those that help the US working man. Maybe you can expound on what kind of laws you are thinking of that are less worker friendly.
Of course there are 22 states that have "Right to Work" laws that I feel are anti union. I sure would not work in one of those states that are less than worker friendly. That is whole different debate.
Of course there are 22 states that have "Right to Work" laws that I feel are anti union. I sure would not work in one of those states that are less than worker friendly. That is whole different debate.
That is along the lines of what I was referring to. But there are other things like the President's attempt to eliminate mandatory premium payments for overtime, and his guest worker program. I would think (and rightfully so) that unions should fight HARD against that one, as it could cause the entire wage system to collapse in this country, as well as benefitting only a 30-50 mile strip along the US-Mexico border, which accounts for less than 5% of the area in just 4 states. You can't tell me that big business aren't in favor of those items, and lobbying hard for it as well. It is tactics like that that would cause unnecessary change for working people. Of course, the CEO's (as well as many here) would say too bad, just go to college and retrain yourself.
"I think you need to re examine who brought up the farm example before you go "heel" on me. "
Oops!
Wait a minute now, something just ain't right here. imidazol97 brought up the subject of McDonalds (Post 2326) and no one suggested it be moved to the "Food" forum. I expanded on it, and still no one suggested moving it.
I feel like the sheep standing between 2 wolves and they are all deciding what dinner will be. Gotta love it!
Well you hit on something that Rocky and I are in agreement on. The whole illegal immigrant situation should be the NUMBER one issue in this Election. Problem is neither party is doing anything about it. Some folks have gone so far as to want to allow those illegal aliens to vote and get drivers licenses. They are all law breakers and should be deported at the very minimum. With severe penalties for repeat offenders. CA has this 3 strikes and you are in for life. I have not heard of one case of an illegal alien being convicted and sentenced to life in prison.
I think you have misjudged the extent of illegal infiltration. Most pass through San Diego and head up the Los Angeles where it is easier to melt into the huge Hispanic concentration. There they can get phony ID and SS cards and they are well on the way to getting a job anywhere in the USA. The fact that we have no idea how many are here is going to be a real challenge, if we get a President that cares about the middle class citizens in this country. The only front runner that has even said he would send the illegals packing is Huckabee. That is a change from his earlier position. Hillary has made it clear that she wants to give them all a drivers license and legal status.
"However, considering no system for this is perfect, getting a steady raise (more like a COLA) isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering that a merit based system can (at times) be fraudulent."
Can't strongly disagree with either of those points. I can remember getting passed over a few times when I should have gotten recognition. But I also got a couple that I felt another was more deserving of.
that everyone is fighting is CHANGE...the unions must change to survive, as there will be no more featherbedding, simply because the work force is (rightfully) disappearing...they never needed that many workers, it just took 30 years to dump the unneeded...
As far as management???...yes, rocky, I am on their case, too...between the line worker and the CEO of Toyota is/was seven layers of management...in GM the layers of management is/was eleven...those extra 4 layers probably equal thousands of unnecessary folks pushing paper...so, if I was CEO of GM, first thing I would do is eliminate at least 4 layers, and then go work on at least 2 more...that would also save billions...
rocky quote: "At one time here in the 90's McDonalds, was paying $9.00 an hour for new employees. Now those jobs are back at minimum wage. I worked at McDonalds and made minumum wage in 1997 while tryingto go to college. I had zero benefits, and they wouldn't even help pay for my tuition."...rocky, you simply cannot breathe without coming across with your entitlement mentality, which will get you in trouble someday...McDonalds may be a career for managers, but for most folks it is a job which teaches them the responsibility of having a job with regular hours and the concept of work...there are no benefits, and why in Heaven's name should they offer tuition assistance???...the enttire concept of McD's is no different than mowing lawns in the summer...you sell your time for some money...no more, no less, except that McD's is air conditioned in the summer and heated in the winter, where your lawn mower is neither, and it beats shoveling snow in the winter...
You just gotta wake up and realize that every single little job out there is not designed to earn you a living...fast food teaches responsibility, as the turnover is always high...
If you want benefits, get a real career job, but please don't call fast food a real job unless you are in management...burger flipping is not a career, and, if you decide to make it one, don't expect anything but your basic paycheck... Ya gotta get a life...I am waiting for the eventual post from you where you mowed lawns as a kid, or shoveled driveways in the winter, but the homeowners whose lawns and driveways you worked never offered you health insurance or a 401K
the eventual post from you where you mowed lawns as a kid
I started pushing a lawnmower around our neighborhood when I was 8 years old. I mowed lawns right up until I went to work for Pacific Telephone when I was 18. I would usually get about $3 for the average lawn even back in 1951. It did not change much over the next 10 years. I was just able to do more in a week. I never discussed health care or pensions with any of the neighbors I worked for. I also paid room and board from the time I was 12 years old.
I actually took a cut in pay going to work for the phone company. And it was a Union job. $62.50 per week. Worked 9 years for Ma Bell never missed a day and did not get one penny retirement. They had a 15 year vestment at the time I quit. Life was much harder for most folks in the real world in the 1950s, 60s & 70s. I don't even know if I had health care with Ma Bell, I never used it if I did.
McDonald's pays about $8 per hour around here. It is strictly supply and demand. Robin Williams worst nightmare was to go to a fast food place and see his kid asking "You want some fries with that"? It is not a career it is an interim job while you get educated. It is hard in San Diego to find people that will show up for only $8 per hour. I think last I checked Wally World was paying $9 to start.
If I hadn't heard Rush Limbow rant about things he really doesn't understand fully and have people believe him, I would have trouble believing the sheer hatred for anything union oozing through here. Could marsha be a nom de plume for Rush?
Reading your post brought back some fine memories.
I also started cutting grass around '51. I was 10. The push mower was indeed a "PUSH" mower (reel type) My dad was real proud of his Bermuda lawn. Rember getting a running start and going across the drive way to build up speed, and the mower eventually bogging down in the lush lawn. Back up, get another running start and push until it bogged down again. If it was not done when he got home Friday evening, he would do it Saturday, but I got no pay that week. The "allowance" stopped at age 10 and Pay started. Seems it was $1 and the allowance had been a quarter.
Lots of kid jobs followed. I got use to getting paid for performance. Work hard get paid more.
I eventually went to work for Western Electric assembly line, which was Union (CWA). It was the best paying job yet. And, all I had to do was to show up, work my quota, and leave at the end of the shift. The pay was steady and dependable, I had some health insurance, and the raises were built into the contracts. What a wonderful life! Easy to understand the "Security" of Union work.
Got married, set up house keeping, and suddenly realized that I was making near top pay after 3+ years. No matter how god a job I did, there was no more money, except for occational overtime, and the yearly "CONTRACT" raise.
Aotomobile assembly lines were paying a lot better. Tried to get on with Ford, Chevy, Buick/Olds, or GM, but I didn't have any "Pull" or any friends working there, so didn't get a job. Had to fall back on early lessons. Get a job where extra performance = better pay.
The thing is, that back then the only real compitition to the Big 3 were each other. So a better Union contract pretty much affected all of them, eventually, and they would all raise the price of the cars.
that Americans refuse to do, the dirty work? For less wages? And I've heard that supposedly this is one factor that is helping to hold down produce costs and help the farmers make it.
And isn't there an agency in the federal government that can sniff out and bust those that are selling fake ID's in this country? Or is that asking too much?
Perhaps Administrations like the Clinton and now GW Bush Administration figure that this country needs the cheap labor the illegals from down south work for in order to keep produce prices somewhat down. And, true, how would the Fed's or individual states ever find the illegals and have any power to pin a charge to them? I mean, here in the SE Arizona county I live in the Border Patrol is doing just that, finding illegals and sending them back. But on a nationwide basis, what about the illegals in Washington state and in Illinois? Huge job.
But the law that says that an illegal that goes to an American hospital to give birth gets that delivery paid in full by the U.S.government is bunkweed, as is the fact that that kid is automatically an American citizen. There have been cases where some SE Arizona hospitals have been driven out of business by doing work for illegals and not getting compensation. They weren't true illegals, or, perhaps they just couldn't afford the healthcare costs? Understandable, the costs of healthcare are too high, agreed. The law says we have to treat them regardless of their ability to pay. Yikes. This is not even getting to the issue of helathcare for standard American citizens that don't have it now.
Some of these problems the Presidential candidates would not even be able to start to solve, I am afraid.
Tried to get on with Ford, Chevy, Buick/Olds, or GM, but I didn't have any "Pull" or any friends working there, so didn't get a job.
I worked with a fellow in Alaska that was born in Mayville, MI. He had all the connections his dad & brother were UAW members, working for GM. When he tried getting a job in 1971 he was turned down because of Affirmative action quotas. He headed for Los Angeles and went into aircraft avionics and eventually ended up working for us in the Arctic. He has a nice home in Laguna Beach and does not miss Michigan. There is life outside the UAW and Michigan if you are motivated. He does go back every couple years to pick up a new Tahoe with his brother's family discount.
PS I spent 9 years in the CWA with Pac Bell. It turned out to be a dead end job as you said. I was fortunate to have RCA hire me and move me to Anchorage, AK.
I should not have veered off onto illegals in the UAW thread. Though I am sure they are in many Unions around the country including the Federal government. It would be better to discuss it in Presidential or Politics threads.
on this thread? Would we be benefited from it is yet another question.
gagrice, yeah, this is the UAW thread and I'll make efforts to leave the illegal immigrants and healthcare reform out if it, you're right. Sometimes they intersect a bit with the UAW. Or the mind wanders to them while discussing the UAW, for some reason.
From the few times I have listened to Rush, I did not get the feeling he is anti union. He is just pro capitalism with conservative ideals. You work you get paid. You don't work you starve. Kind of the way I was brought up. Or there is NO free lunch mentioned in the Constitution. Things like Social Security and the Great Society are panning out as big mistakes.
like Rush, that I am just a harmless little fuzzball, you might be concerned...
As an attorney, I like to think of my motto as, "Truth, justice, and the American way"...but the Man of Steel took that one before I did, so my second choice was "Hi-Yo, Silver, away........................", but it appears that someone beat me to that one, too...:):):):):)
Since a topic like UAW will intersect things like immigrants (low wages) or health care (as a benefit of employment, union or nonunion), I think it would be on topic to mention it, as long as the tangential (like that word, eh?) thread does not take a life of its own...
And, I am guilty as the rest of you, so I am not pointing fingers...
Rocky, I have to agree w/ Bob on the McD's thing. They have in the past advertised their positions as something for teens, moms and retired folk looking for a little coin in their pouch, and not a career, although I'm sure one could move up through the ranks.
Gagrice, my theory on the immigration thing was that if we allowed guest workers, then American companies would move from up north to anywhere say w/in an hrs drive from the border, where people could live in Mexico and work here and not have to sneak over the border.
iluv, as far as Americans not wanting to do the dirty work, I have noticed in my travels, people working at convienient stores, coffee shops, department stores, etc. at work acting as if what they are doing isn't worth the aggrivation, and make mistakes to cut corners that actually cost their employer money. Sometimes it makes me wonder if they didn't cough up a little more coin, maybe they'd get a better class of people or that people may actually care about what they are doing. A few weeks ago, I saw a bit on Fox news where landscapers were hiring illegals in So Cal and displacing black workers, who refuse to take a pay cut to work for the same rate as the illegals. Now, I know it may sound a little contradictory, but I think we have to strike a balance between what is a fair wage to draw a proper workforce and what will keep costs for a company at a happy medium.
but if the company sets the wage, this suddenly makes me feel all of these pro-union thoughts real strong all of a sudden.
OTOH, I don't know, in my Allied Health care job I am relatively new to the Respiratory Therapy field and I can't complain about my non-union wages at all.
Now, as for my own healthcare insurance, that is yet another story. I and my two fellow Respiratory Therapists are working at this small hospital in SE Arizona in a small SE Arizona town that contracts out it's Respiratory Therapy workers. Our actual employer is in Tallahassee, FL. But I have learned that the new CEO of the hospital we work at has started questioning why all of the out-sourcing, hinting that we may be asked to come on board directly for the hospital. At the same pay but covered by a health insurance that actually covers us without the yearly deductible to work off first. Wow, if I was understanding my boss correctly on this I do hope we go direct working for the hospital.
I really hope they take you guys on. It sounds as if it would be a better deal.
As far as the wages go, when I speak of those low paying jobs at say a department store, where there may be high turnover rate, my point is if you give them a little more, maybe then when they are having a bad day they might think twice about saying "Is this really worth it?" and quitting, or doing something to get themselves fired.
no, I agree with you on that. But that's just it, I've thought of this for mini-market workers or McD's or what-have you. Pay them more and possibly they'll give you better service or not forget to leave your hamburger out of your drive-thru order bag or so on.
The thing is is that places like that just figure, oh well, of this person quits there will be another person with an application on file that we can hire right away to take their place, ya know.
I was gonna throw Home Depot in with this group but if I have my facts straight they do pay a tad better than the afore-mentioned businesses.
say w/in an hrs drive from the border, where people could live in Mexico and work here and not have to sneak over the border.
There are thousands of legal workers that live in TJ and work in San Diego area. The cost of living down there is about 1/2. The real problem for them is the 2 hour wait at the border with engines idling. That goes over to the $4 price of gas thread. Most illegals live off the land so to speak. At least until they find a regular job.
I think at issue is we did an amnesty program years ago. That was supposed to be a break off point and the borders were to be secured. It never happened and we are in worse shape today. Even worse than the jobs lost to Citizens is the drug traffic and terrorist traffic. I am sure many pay for their trip into the land of plenty by hauling a load of drugs across the desert.
There was a statement made by a Honcho at GM about their UAW factories. Nothing was said about their IUE factory in Moraine (Dayton is a suburb). That has some folks concerned here about whether there's a future for the fairly new plant.
Places like Wal~Mart already have such high turnover and a bad repution among the workforce they are now having a hard time attracting quality new employees. They usually end up with those at the bottom of the labor pool such as ex-cons, drug addicts, alcoholics, and mentally/emotionally disabled.
I have a little part-time gig doing physical inventory for retail and grocery stores. We are paid considerably better than the people actually working in the stores. I started out making only $6/hr. fifteen years ago, but now make a pretty decent wage for a little part time gig. Hey, I gave me the down payment on my house!
Guest workers were legal right? It would be near impossible to get a UAW person to pick apples or peaches. Some state tried to use prisoners to pick fruit. The ACLU said it was cruel and unusual punishment.
No, rocky, I understand the reality of what candidates can do and what the public will accept, and, unfortunately, it does not square with what you want to happen.
Sorry, but no candidate, Republican or Democrat, is going to slap tariffs on vehicles imported from Japan, South Korea, Germany or Sweden (our main sources of imported automobiles, and some of our closest allies).
Any candidate who promises to do so will not win the election.
Over one-half of retail buyers purchased a vehicle made by a company other than the Big Three. Many of those buyers are concentrated in the big coastal states - California, New York, Florida and Georgia. Do you really believe that a candidate is going to risk the wrath of car buyers in those states just to satisfy the UAW?
You don't have to be Rush Limbaugh to see just how implausible that scenario is.
rockylee: I know you have a strong dislike for union made stuff and that plays a roll in your thinking. Anything UAW, is evil right ?
Rocky, please do not make any further attempts at mind-reading. I could care less about the union one way or another. If the UAW succeeds fine. If it goes under - well, that is life.
Out here in the real world (i.e., the world outside of the industrial Midwest, or even this message board), the union is...largely a non-entity. I have yet to encounter one person who purchased a vehicle to either avoid the UAW, or help union members. They buy what they like, and the union factor just does not enter into the equation.
(Although I have met people who buy domestic cars because they want to keep assembly-line jobs in America. Ironically, these tend to be older people who listen to Rush Limbaugh and are also anti-union!)
The fate of both the UAW and the Big Three is in the hands of management and the union. They need to stop blaming everyone else, and realize that for the past 30+ years, they teamed up to produce a lot of really lousy products, which alienated buyers. These buyers have found viable alternatives from other manufacturers, who do not use UAW labor.
Management and labor created the problem, and only they can fix it.
Blaming currency manipulation, Consumer Reports, people who buy imports, or dealers who secretly swap defective parts when the car is brought in for service is a waste of time.
rockylee: I am very Pro Germany, as I have mostly German, blood flowing through my veins but I'm a american first !!!
I have German blood flowing through my veins, too. But as an American, I have little patience for whining, excuses or crybaby-like behavior. I spend my automotive dollars on companies that at least LOOK like they are trying.
rockylee: I do honestly believe John Reid Edwards, is the one candidate who would make a difference for the UAW workers.
I didn't know that John Edwards is an automotive engineer or stylist, or that he understands how to improve plant layout to boost quality and efficiency. Wonder how he'll be able to pull off those duties for the Big Three while leading the United States, too...
rockylee: It is an emotional drain seeing so many of my fellow country men struggle to put food on the table and gas in the tank.
I agree. Fortunately, many people I know drive reliable, fuel-efficient Toyotas and Hondas, which makes that struggle easier. They aren't spending as much on car repairs, depreciation or gas.
Well seeing how fired up you were I must of pushed some buttons of yours so I must be on target. cooterbfd, I'm not saying McDonalds, owes anyone anything but my point is even jobs we look at as meager today had benefits back in the old days. Drug Stores, Grocery Store, big box stores such as Meijer's, offered workers a decent wage and benefits. My point is a large corporation like McDonalds, could do better than they are now. If they can blow $80 million for some idiot who can dribble a basketball to smile and say "I'm loving it" then they can provide some damn health insurance so my tax dollars don't have to go for that employee. That is the greedy elitist entitlement mentality. Take as much as I can get !!! :mad: It seems like many folks forget what even non-union normal jobs offered back in the day. Back in the day to me was the 80's and 90's for some of you it was the 60's and 70's. I guess Michigan, really was as gagrice, said different from the rest of the U.S. ??? I seriously have my doubts with all do respect to gagrice, if that is true or not ??? California, had city's such as Long Beach, where I was born which was home to huge unionized corporations. Where did you grow up gagrice ? Did you grow up in the farm belt ? If so then yeah, you might of been poor unless daddy owned land. People like I, lemko, imidazol97, grew up in or around industrialized city's and towns here in the midwest. You punched the clock, worked your butt of, and punched out. You weren't rich, but you weren't poor. You were truely middle class. Delco, as imidazol97' knows all to well was a great unionized employer. The steel mills in Penn. where lemko, lives were great union jobs. The General Motors Factory's, General Electric, Steel Case, to name a few were great payingjobs. Steel Case, was non-union furniture company and in some years they paid better than GM or GE. My point is that those great paying jobs made our local Western Michigan economy very strong. As bad as time are now those good days helped build Grand Rapids, into what it is today which is the strongest economy in the state. Holland, Mi. even with as many factory's that have packed up in left still remains a strong industrial city. It's going to take the right person in that white house along with a congress that will not block the presidents mission to change the ground work in this country. I have my opinion as many of you know who can reverse the tearing apart of labor laws in this country. However it appears that person is being out celebritied by the other two.
Time will tell if unions like the United Auto Workers and IUE-CWA survive or not. I believe if they die so does the country as fintail, says the serf n' elite society will be a reality. :sick:
Where did you grow up gagrice ? Did you grow up in the farm belt ?
1943 -1952 Los Angeles Mother and grandmother worked in sewing factories piece work Father was in WW2 left my mom on his return 1946. 1952 - 1956 Portland Oregon when my Mom married my step dad. He was going to college in Portland on GI bill and working at Nabisco making them stinking OREO cookies. This was the poorest time in my life. 1957 Los Angeles 1958 - 1970 San Diego. went to work for Pac Tel and folks left in 1961 looking for work elsewhere. 1970 -1977 Anchorage RCA Alascom great job 1977 - 1980 bought a farm in Minnesota and went through $100k in savings trying to make a small farm work with that loser Jimmy Carter destroying the economy. 1980 back to Alaska where I could make a living until I retired in 2006 CWA member 1961 to 1970 Teamsters 959 from 1970 to retirement Carpenters Union in MN 1979 trying to keep the farm going while working 75 miles from home.
My folks never accumulated anything. My step Dad had to file for bankruptcy when my mom died because of the medical bills from being in the hospital for 6 days. He worked as a carpenter till he was 78 years old. They were your typical Republican family. My biological father who has also passed away, owned a very successful Tool and Die business in Orange County. He was a typical well to do Democrat. So you see we have a totally different view of history and the political parties.
Being in 3 different Unions I did see how they operated. I was on the "E" board for several years at the Teamsters. I watched the demise of Unions in Alaska. The last big drop was in 1990 when the deals made with the Oil Companies ended. Our Union boss hammered out a 50% Union hire agreement for building the pipeline and subsequent maintenance in the early 1970s. When that agreement expired the pink slips went out to most of the Union workers in the Prudhoe Bay oil field. The old Union Companies folded and returned as Non-Union with new names and the same old faces. Many, many Union guys pulled their retirement money out of the Teamsters and came back Non-Union doing the same jobs. That was tough on our retirement fund and the Union as a whole. It had NOTHING to do with outsourcing or offshore workers. It was companies tired of dealing with Unions. I blame the truck drivers mainly. They took $150k to $300k cash out of the retirement fund quit the Union and came back as a Non union driver. Many UAW companies have done the same thing. They just go where they do not have to deal with the Union. Close a plant in Michigan and open one in Ireland or Taiwan or Mississippi. Where ever they find people willing to work at a competitive wage. That would be most of the world outside Michigan. Why would any company in their right mind build a new plant in Michigan where they know that they will be dealing with workers that feel ENTITLED to a better wage package than folks 500 miles south.
RCA Alascom sent me to 4 months of school in 1971 down in Johnson City Tennessee. It was a North Electric factory that had pulled out of Ohio in 1970. They took a few key people and hired all new factory workers in TN. The migration from the high cost of labor in the Midwest started long before Ronald Reagan. It was not a political issue in 1970 and it is not a political issue now. It is all about economics. You cannot build a widget and sell it at a profit, when you pay too much for labor. I think you will find the concept goes back 100s of years.
interesting. Just to see what the Big Three are gonna do. Will the huge UAW demands make it hard for Ford to develop the new Fiesta/Verve? Shouldn't be hard, but look at the history.
Will the Cadillacs, huge SUV's, the new 'Bu and the new sling of huge pick-em-up trucks sell in large enough numbers to satisfy the bean-counters and give those excessively large wages to the UAW throngs.
Will Chrysler survive and will their agreement with Chery Motors of China produce America-ready dinky cars to sell here and in Mexico, Canada, South America, Europe, China, etc. It's a big, wide automotive world but I just got an image in my mind of the Titanic(GM, Ford, Chrysler)seeing a huge iceberg and turning hard to the left. Slowly, slowly, why won't she turn any faster? Creaking, huge ship turning as hard and fast as she can. :surprise:
down to economics, and union folks simply are incapable of understanding that some (or much) of the work they do costs too much for the skill involved in doing it...placing a wheel on a hub or sweeping the floor simply is NOT worth $30 and hour plus benefits...you can argue til the cows come home, but paying someone to sweep floors $60K a year will not last, and they will move the plant...
"Delco, as imidazol97' knows all to well was a great unionized employer. The steel mills in Penn. where lemko, lives were great union jobs. The General Motors Factory's, General Electric, Steel Case, to name a few were great paying jobs."...yes, and they either priced themselves out of the market where the plant was moved, or they can use robots to replace humans, and robots do not get drunk, call in sick, or have some entitlement attitude ingrained into them by previous generations of union militants...
Face it, no president will bring ONE job back to Michigan, as Michigan is anti-business...if one must deal with unions, either in their workers or their suppliers, there is an antagonism that can only be alleviated by NOT setting up shop in Michigan...
rocky, reality is not oly slamming you in the face now, but it will get worse in the future...Michigan offers NOTHING that cannot be offered by another state that is cheaper, more business-friendly, warmer, and comes without a union you-owe-it-to-me attitude...you can bluster all you want, but when you look around you, the last thing you will see is job growth...businesses are leaving Michigan as fast as the interstate will let them drive, except those few businesses that are stuck there...
Unless you are financially independent, Michigan will get worse for employment over time...
Tell me what Michigan offers that is not cheaper and better in the South...
Tell me what Michigan offers that is not cheaper and better in the South...
Just remember many times you get what you pay for !!!!
When this country goes belly up which I predict it will with your dream serf n' elite society and non-union culture I don't want to hear ya'll whining. :sick:
Tell me what Michigan offers that is not cheaper and better in the South...
So, are you saying that everybody should just abandon the North and move South??
.....economics, and union folks simply are incapable of understanding that some (or much) of the work they do costs too much for the skill involved in doing it...placing a wheel on a hub or sweeping the floor simply is NOT worth $30 and hour plus benefits...
Well, if Toyota can pay a compareable wage in Ky and make money, then the wage must be spot on. The focus seems to have more to do with the QUALITY of the product than the people making it, and THAT can be seen in the rave reviews and demand for products like the '08 CTS, Malibu and Enclave. They sell, and sell for more than their predecessors because they are BETTER despite being built by the same union "slugs". 10 years ago when the Big 3 were selling every truck and SUV they made, these salaries were also justified because of the obcene profits being made on each one. And again, they sold because they were quality vehicles. I will NEVER get over this POMPOUS ARROGANT attitude of demanding lower wages because YOU think they have no skill.
As a lawyer, explain this to me: If ANYONE of a certain age can be elected to MAKE laws then why must you get a law degree to PRACTICE law? I know legally we may represent ourselves in court, but isn't there a saying about only a fool would represent themselves? As a citizen, just like the president represents ME, it is also MY legislature, and MY judiciary, yet LAWYERS seem to rule the roost there. I would say if any idiot can hang a bumper, then any idiot can read a law, interperet in THEIR OWN WAY, and form an OPINION.
cooterbfd: Well, if Toyota can pay a compareable wage in Ky and make money, then the wage must be spot on.
The Big Three's competitive disadvantage wasn't because of wage disparity. Toyota (and Honda) knew that if it tried to undercut the UAW wage rates too much, it would serve as an open invitation to a unionization drive.
Where the transplants come out ahead is in a variety of areas, one of which is more efficient work rules. It doesn't take three union workers to change a light bulb, and "that's not my job" is not part of the language in their plants.
This is why, during 2007, Ford had been quietly working with the UAW to implement competitive operating agreements (COAs) in all of its plants. Ford and the UAW had successfully negotiated new COAs for all but a handful of the Ford plants PRIOR to last year's contract negotiations.
Granted, the UAW tends to have a better relationship with Ford than with Chrysler and GM, but I don't think that Mr. Gettelfinger would have sanctioned these COAs if he didn't believe that Ford needed to become more competitive in this area. GM has been working with the UAW to implement COAs in its plants, too, but GM tends to lag behind Ford in labor relations.
The second big advantage is health care costs. The Big Three provide very generous health care plans, with little or no co-payments, to both members and retirees. This is why the UAW agreed to the VEBA in the new contract.
The transplants provide more cost-efficient (but less generous) plans to employees, and it is my understanding that their retirees rely on Medicare.
Finally, the transplants have been much more disciplined in how they run plants. I know that Rockylee doesn't want to hear this, but the daily absentee rate at the transplants is about 1-2 percent of the workforce, compared to about 10-12 percent of the Big Three plants. That type of absentee rate hurts productivity and quality. And, yes, the UAW (usually union locals, not the national headquarters) has often blocked the effort to fire or at least discipline the slackers who are ruining it for everyone else.
Saying, "UAW members make so many dollars per year, and are overpaid, and are thus the root of the Big Three's problems," is easy (everyone understands the concept of take-home pay, and that pay usually rises with level of education), but incorrect. The real problem is much more complicated, but the UAW isn't completely blameless. On the other hand, with the latest contract, I see Mr. Gettelfinger and the union leadership accepting reality, even if Rockylee doesn't like it.
Comments
That is totally B.S.and your friend is showing you his true anti-union colors. Hell immigrant day-laborers get paid $9-11 an hour and if you know anything about house building the labor part isn't that large of a slice of the cost pie unless you are a do nothing "car window" builder. But even those folks make a good living if they have enough projects going on.
Promote your union mentality and you will find that you are no longer middle class. You are making the same as the lowest paying jobs with their unions.
My belief is that todays Unions should deal with work place conditions and encouraging the employers through negotiation to make education available to the employees.
The typical anti-union line of education, education, education, and after you are retrained and jump ship Moses, from India, tells your boss he will do it for half as much thus you are unemployed anyways. :confuse: Some of these people that preach this agenda are going to fine out all to soon or their kids will exactly what I'm talking about. 20-30 million more jobs are predicted to be gone by the end of the next decade if we keep on this current economic cycle. :sick:
Such as helping or paying for trade schools and/or college tuition, Health benefits, retirement of some type, 401Ks and so forth.
Well the UAW, has done what you are talking about but it's not just the union shops whom are having their jobs shipped to India, China, Bangledesh. The Toyota Georgetown, workers might learn soon enough what it's like to have your standard of living axed in half and then what will those anti-union brown nosing suckers that believed that the UAW was evil will say !!!! :sick: :sick: :sick: Your company didn't take care of you like you believed and I don't want to hear the whining !!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Twist it any way you wish!
Kip
I'm afraid he wasn't doing the twisting this time........
-Rocky
Love the post pal !!! Some of that stuff like the Harvard tuition I had no clue about. Only $1,250 :surprise:
My parents first house they bought was like in 1980 or 81 and it cost $25K and my father thought that was expensive. That same house today would cost you $100K. Dad, said he could of bought a much larger one on a lake for like $38K and that same house is easily worth over $200K.
-Rocky
I very much agree that one needs marketable skills these days to get ahead. Maybe the 1950s and 1960s were the Glory Days for a guy just getting his high school diploma or coming out of the armed services. I remember a lot of guys making the commute to the Allentown-Bethlehem area to work at Bethlehem Steel or to Fairless Hills to the U.S. Steel works.
My Dad did alright until he was laid-off in 1998 at the age of 60. He did take advantage of retraining as an electrical technician and actually graduated at the top of his class. He got a job at Quaker Oats as a maintenance electrician and then retired. Funny thing Dad told me is that he wasted 24 years of his life at the job he had prior to Quaker. If he had worked for Quaker the entire time, he'd have had an awesome retirement package.
"That, along with the $25 burger is fine with me, PROVIDED that my wage is commensurate with those prices. You see, it sounds as if you look at the price ALONE ($400k house and $25 burger) and go :surprise: "
I understand what you are saying. My point is that everybody can't be middle class just because they have a union. Certain jobs are only worth so much. If you and I are rocking along at our incomes and suddenly the Fast Foods Workers Union develops, and those folks start making 4-5 times what they are making now. Well.....! Then the UAW gets all excited because burger flippers are making as much as wheel hangers and so forth. Something about runaway inflation!
I realize there is absolutely no way that a "dyed in the wool" union member is going to agree with me, and I don't expect them to do so. I worked for Western Electric for 3 1/2 years in days of yore. Had a good taste of Union Life. Not for me! I don't want to get a raise because everybody else did. I want the raise or promotion because I earned it. I don't want someone else deciding for me and a couple of hundred others what "WE" can get. I preferred to do that for myself. If I'm not happy, I can leave. I also don't care for someone "suggesting" whom I should vote for.
Now, this all started by my stating my views that the UAW bullying tactics have contributed to the possible demise of the auto industry in Detroit. I also included management being seriously over paid and over staffed. Then a couple of folks come along and want to twist what I said. I don't think you, cooterbfd, intended to do that.
Anyone that actually believes the union has not contributed to problems with the Big 3 might need to ask themselves, why the UAW god has suddenly decided that new hire lower wages are now acceptable.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it!
Kip
He got that part right! Do you actually believe that an inexperienced person should make the same as an experienced one. A new hire should make the same as a 20 year veteran? A wheel hanger should make the same as a transmission builder? The person that goes the extra mile should make the same as the guy that just gets by? I don't !
"So here ya go off the deep-end and is why I can't take you seriously".
Rocky, you haven't taken anything I said seriously since, and including my first post where I had the gall to speak against the UAW god !
"With all do respect Kip, I think it does have a lot to do with the situation."
With all do respect Rocky it has nothing to do with the point.
The point was that These management empires help to destroy companies, just as too many overpaid worker bees do. The point was that 400 staff were not needed in my region and probably not in the other 3 USA regions either. That is a possibility of nearly 1600 fairly high priced spreads Nation wide, that were unnessary. imidazol97' asked what the assembly line workers were earning. . Whether the assembly line workers were making $5 an hour or $50 an hour has absolutely nothing to do with those unnessary empires.
My "Yeah right" comment was toward his saying something about companies only looking after friends, relatives, and sucky noses, or something like that. It was really not even worth the "Yeah right"!
Rocky, do you ever actually read what I'm commenting to, or is it just that you want to try to nail me out of context, because I don't like the UAW god? :shades:
Never mind, I know! You are mad because my son bought a Ridgeline.
Kip
Yep, I've read something along those lines too. Of course the illegals would be willing to work for $14 an hour and would still get hired. :sick:
Gotta think that if a farmer has 100 workers in his fields and he can save $1 an hour on each one, that is $800 a day saved.
This has nothing to do with our debate, but whom did the UAW endorse for presidential candidate?
Thanks,
Kip
(good grief, another box of snakes opened
I believe that belongs in "Politics."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
P.S. I agree it probably belongs in the politics forum but since they haven't we can keep it short and simple.
Really?
Should Rocky move his Farm wage comments to another forum?
I think you need to re examine who brought up the farm example before you go "heel" on me.
On a softer and more on topic note http://www.iamtheuaw.org/
-Rocky
I see your point there, as well as with promotions. However, considering no system for this is perfect, getting a steady raise (more like a COLA) isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering that a merit based system can (at times) be fraudulent. Worked at a marina in the late 80's and we were ALL told no raises this year as it was a tough year. Yet one woman in the office got a $1.25 raise. Next thing we know, the Marina mgr. separates from his wife and these 2 are dating (guess knee pads are expensive). :surprise:
Now, this all started by my stating my views that the UAW bullying tactics have contributed to the possible demise of the auto industry in Detroit. I also included management being seriously over paid and over staffed. Then a couple of folks come along and want to twist what I said. I don't think you, cooterbfd, intended to do that.
No, I'm not, even though I tend to agree w/ Rocky far more than others. a local talk show host brought up a point about how Gov't should keep far away from business as it can (in regards to tax breaks for businesses). I believe he's right, unless they are trying to do the will of the people (ie. safety issues). The problem is, with "states rights" we have 50 states "competing" against one another instead of working together as a "Union" (no pun- in a Patriotic sense). This, as well as differences in traditional lifestyles puts traditionally union northern states at a disadvantage to southern states which are traditionally non union farming states that provided raw materials for the north's industrial base.
One other thing: We seem to criticize unions for 'bullying tactics" to get into a company, yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for a company to shmooze lawmakers into making laws that are less "worker friendly".
It does seem to me that there are more laws on the books that protect employees from employer abuse than the other way around. If you are referring to programs that become corporate welfare such as the latest Energy bills I would agree. There was little in those that help the US working man. Maybe you can expound on what kind of laws you are thinking of that are less worker friendly.
Of course there are 22 states that have "Right to Work" laws that I feel are anti union. I sure would not work in one of those states that are less than worker friendly. That is whole different debate.
That is along the lines of what I was referring to. But there are other things like the President's attempt to eliminate mandatory premium payments for overtime, and his guest worker program. I would think (and rightfully so) that unions should fight HARD against that one, as it could cause the entire wage system to collapse in this country, as well as benefitting only a 30-50 mile strip along the US-Mexico border, which accounts for less than 5% of the area in just 4 states. You can't tell me that big business aren't in favor of those items, and lobbying hard for it as well. It is tactics like that that would cause unnecessary change for working people. Of course, the CEO's (as well as many here) would say too bad, just go to college and retrain yourself.
Oops!
Wait a minute now, something just ain't right here. imidazol97 brought up the subject of McDonalds (Post 2326) and no one suggested it be moved to the "Food" forum. I expanded on it, and still no one suggested moving it.
I feel like the sheep standing between 2 wolves and they are all deciding what dinner will be. Gotta love it!
Y'all have a good evening!
Kip
I think you have misjudged the extent of illegal infiltration. Most pass through San Diego and head up the Los Angeles where it is easier to melt into the huge Hispanic concentration. There they can get phony ID and SS cards and they are well on the way to getting a job anywhere in the USA. The fact that we have no idea how many are here is going to be a real challenge, if we get a President that cares about the middle class citizens in this country. The only front runner that has even said he would send the illegals packing is Huckabee. That is a change from his earlier position. Hillary has made it clear that she wants to give them all a drivers license and legal status.
gagrice, "Politics" #1239, 18 Jan 2008 10:41 pm
Thanks rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Can't strongly disagree with either of those points. I can remember getting passed over a few times when I should have gotten recognition. But I also got a couple that I felt another was more deserving of.
Different strokes for different folks!
Regards,
Kip
Thanks,
Kip
As far as management???...yes, rocky, I am on their case, too...between the line worker and the CEO of Toyota is/was seven layers of management...in GM the layers of management is/was eleven...those extra 4 layers probably equal thousands of unnecessary folks pushing paper...so, if I was CEO of GM, first thing I would do is eliminate at least 4 layers, and then go work on at least 2 more...that would also save billions...
rocky quote: "At one time here in the 90's McDonalds, was paying $9.00 an hour for new employees. Now those jobs are back at minimum wage. I worked at McDonalds and made minumum wage in 1997 while tryingto go to college. I had zero benefits, and they wouldn't even help pay for my tuition."...rocky, you simply cannot breathe without coming across with your entitlement mentality, which will get you in trouble someday...McDonalds may be a career for managers, but for most folks it is a job which teaches them the responsibility of having a job with regular hours and the concept of work...there are no benefits, and why in Heaven's name should they offer tuition assistance???...the enttire concept of McD's is no different than mowing lawns in the summer...you sell your time for some money...no more, no less, except that McD's is air conditioned in the summer and heated in the winter, where your lawn mower is neither, and it beats shoveling snow in the winter...
You just gotta wake up and realize that every single little job out there is not designed to earn you a living...fast food teaches responsibility, as the turnover is always high...
If you want benefits, get a real career job, but please don't call fast food a real job unless you are in management...burger flipping is not a career, and, if you decide to make it one, don't expect anything but your basic paycheck...
Ya gotta get a life...I am waiting for the eventual post from you where you mowed lawns as a kid, or shoveled driveways in the winter, but the homeowners whose lawns and driveways you worked never offered you health insurance or a 401K
I started pushing a lawnmower around our neighborhood when I was 8 years old. I mowed lawns right up until I went to work for Pacific Telephone when I was 18. I would usually get about $3 for the average lawn even back in 1951. It did not change much over the next 10 years. I was just able to do more in a week. I never discussed health care or pensions with any of the neighbors I worked for. I also paid room and board from the time I was 12 years old.
I actually took a cut in pay going to work for the phone company. And it was a Union job. $62.50 per week. Worked 9 years for Ma Bell never missed a day and did not get one penny retirement. They had a 15 year vestment at the time I quit. Life was much harder for most folks in the real world in the 1950s, 60s & 70s. I don't even know if I had health care with Ma Bell, I never used it if I did.
McDonald's pays about $8 per hour around here. It is strictly supply and demand. Robin Williams worst nightmare was to go to a fast food place and see his kid asking "You want some fries with that"? It is not a career it is an interim job while you get educated. It is hard in San Diego to find people that will show up for only $8 per hour. I think last I checked Wally World was paying $9 to start.
Could marsha be a nom de plume for Rush?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Reading your post brought back some fine memories.
I also started cutting grass around '51. I was 10. The push mower was indeed a "PUSH" mower (reel type) My dad was real proud of his Bermuda lawn. Rember getting a running start and going across the drive way to build up speed, and the mower eventually bogging down in the lush lawn. Back up, get another running start and push until it bogged down again. If it was not done when he got home Friday evening, he would do it Saturday, but I got no pay that week. The "allowance" stopped at age 10 and Pay started. Seems it was $1 and the allowance had been a quarter.
Lots of kid jobs followed. I got use to getting paid for performance. Work hard get paid more.
I eventually went to work for Western Electric assembly line, which was Union (CWA). It was the best paying job yet. And, all I had to do was to show up, work my quota, and leave at the end of the shift. The pay was steady and dependable, I had some health insurance, and the raises were built into the contracts. What a wonderful life! Easy to understand the "Security" of Union work.
Got married, set up house keeping, and suddenly realized that I was making near top pay after 3+ years. No matter how god a job I did, there was no more money, except for occational overtime, and the yearly "CONTRACT" raise.
Aotomobile assembly lines were paying a lot better. Tried to get on with Ford, Chevy, Buick/Olds, or GM, but I didn't have any "Pull" or any friends working there, so didn't get a job. Had to fall back on early lessons. Get a job where extra performance = better pay.
The thing is, that back then the only real compitition to the Big 3 were each other. So a better Union contract pretty much affected all of them, eventually, and they would all raise the price of the cars.
Kip
And isn't there an agency in the federal government that can sniff out and bust those that are selling fake ID's in this country? Or is that asking too much?
Perhaps Administrations like the Clinton and now GW Bush Administration figure that this country needs the cheap labor the illegals from down south work for in order to keep produce prices somewhat down. And, true, how would the Fed's or individual states ever find the illegals and have any power to pin a charge to them? I mean, here in the SE Arizona county I live in the Border Patrol is doing just that, finding illegals and sending them back. But on a nationwide basis, what about the illegals in Washington state and in Illinois? Huge job.
But the law that says that an illegal that goes to an American hospital to give birth gets that delivery paid in full by the U.S.government is bunkweed, as is the fact that that kid is automatically an American citizen. There have been cases where some SE Arizona hospitals have been driven out of business by doing work for illegals and not getting compensation. They weren't true illegals, or, perhaps they just couldn't afford the healthcare costs? Understandable, the costs of healthcare are too high, agreed. The law says we have to treat them regardless of their ability to pay. Yikes. This is not even getting to the issue of helathcare for standard American citizens that don't have it now.
Some of these problems the Presidential candidates would not even be able to start to solve, I am afraid.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I worked with a fellow in Alaska that was born in Mayville, MI. He had all the connections his dad & brother were UAW members, working for GM. When he tried getting a job in 1971 he was turned down because of Affirmative action quotas. He headed for Los Angeles and went into aircraft avionics and eventually ended up working for us in the Arctic. He has a nice home in Laguna Beach and does not miss Michigan. There is life outside the UAW and Michigan if you are motivated. He does go back every couple years to pick up a new Tahoe with his brother's family discount.
PS
I spent 9 years in the CWA with Pac Bell. It turned out to be a dead end job as you said. I was fortunate to have RCA hire me and move me to Anchorage, AK.
pat, "Presidential Primaries and Election" #695, 19 Jan 2008 1:42 pm
steve_, "Politics" #1244, 20 Jan 2008 8:48 pm
That's a relief. I was worried for a second there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
gagrice, yeah, this is the UAW thread and I'll make efforts to leave the illegal immigrants and healthcare reform out if it, you're right. Sometimes they intersect a bit with the UAW. Or the mind wanders to them while discussing the UAW, for some reason.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As an attorney, I like to think of my motto as, "Truth, justice, and the American way"...but the Man of Steel took that one before I did, so my second choice was "Hi-Yo, Silver, away........................", but it appears that someone beat me to that one, too...:):):):):)
Since a topic like UAW will intersect things like immigrants (low wages) or health care (as a benefit of employment, union or nonunion), I think it would be on topic to mention it, as long as the tangential (like that word, eh?) thread does not take a life of its own...
And, I am guilty as the rest of you, so I am not pointing fingers...
Gagrice, my theory on the immigration thing was that if we allowed guest workers, then American companies would move from up north to anywhere say w/in an hrs drive from the border, where people could live in Mexico and work here and not have to sneak over the border.
iluv, as far as Americans not wanting to do the dirty work, I have noticed in my travels, people working at convienient stores, coffee shops, department stores, etc. at work acting as if what they are doing isn't worth the aggrivation, and make mistakes to cut corners that actually cost their employer money. Sometimes it makes me wonder if they didn't cough up a little more coin, maybe they'd get a better class of people or that people may actually care about what they are doing. A few weeks ago, I saw a bit on Fox news where landscapers were hiring illegals in So Cal and displacing black workers, who refuse to take a pay cut to work for the same rate as the illegals. Now, I know it may sound a little contradictory, but I think we have to strike a balance between what is a fair wage to draw a proper workforce and what will keep costs for a company at a happy medium.
OTOH, I don't know, in my Allied Health care job I am relatively new to the Respiratory Therapy field and I can't complain about my non-union wages at all.
Now, as for my own healthcare insurance, that is yet another story. I and my two fellow Respiratory Therapists are working at this small hospital in SE Arizona in a small SE Arizona town that contracts out it's Respiratory Therapy workers. Our actual employer is in Tallahassee, FL. But I have learned that the new CEO of the hospital we work at has started questioning why all of the out-sourcing, hinting that we may be asked to come on board directly for the hospital. At the same pay but covered by a health insurance that actually covers us without the yearly deductible to work off first. Wow, if I was understanding my boss correctly on this I do hope we go direct working for the hospital.
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As far as the wages go, when I speak of those low paying jobs at say a department store, where there may be high turnover rate, my point is if you give them a little more, maybe then when they are having a bad day they might think twice about saying "Is this really worth it?" and quitting, or doing something to get themselves fired.
The thing is is that places like that just figure, oh well, of this person quits there will be another person with an application on file that we can hire right away to take their place, ya know.
I was gonna throw Home Depot in with this group but if I have my facts straight they do pay a tad better than the afore-mentioned businesses.
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There are thousands of legal workers that live in TJ and work in San Diego area. The cost of living down there is about 1/2. The real problem for them is the 2 hour wait at the border with engines idling. That goes over to the $4 price of gas thread. Most illegals live off the land so to speak. At least until they find a regular job.
I think at issue is we did an amnesty program years ago. That was supposed to be a break off point and the borders were to be secured. It never happened and we are in worse shape today. Even worse than the jobs lost to Citizens is the drug traffic and terrorist traffic. I am sure many pay for their trip into the land of plenty by hauling a load of drugs across the desert.
Anyone got any UAW news?
IUE Moraine worried
(I'm back on topic!)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have a little part-time gig doing physical inventory for retail and grocery stores. We are paid considerably better than the people actually working in the stores. I started out making only $6/hr. fifteen years ago, but now make a pretty decent wage for a little part time gig. Hey, I gave me the down payment on my house!
No, rocky, I understand the reality of what candidates can do and what the public will accept, and, unfortunately, it does not square with what you want to happen.
Sorry, but no candidate, Republican or Democrat, is going to slap tariffs on vehicles imported from Japan, South Korea, Germany or Sweden (our main sources of imported automobiles, and some of our closest allies).
Any candidate who promises to do so will not win the election.
Over one-half of retail buyers purchased a vehicle made by a company other than the Big Three. Many of those buyers are concentrated in the big coastal states - California, New York, Florida and Georgia. Do you really believe that a candidate is going to risk the wrath of car buyers in those states just to satisfy the UAW?
You don't have to be Rush Limbaugh to see just how implausible that scenario is.
rockylee: I know you have a strong dislike for union made stuff and that plays a roll in your thinking. Anything UAW, is evil right ?
Rocky, please do not make any further attempts at mind-reading. I could care less about the union one way or another. If the UAW succeeds fine. If it goes under - well, that is life.
Out here in the real world (i.e., the world outside of the industrial Midwest, or even this message board), the union is...largely a non-entity. I have yet to encounter one person who purchased a vehicle to either avoid the UAW, or help union members. They buy what they like, and the union factor just does not enter into the equation.
(Although I have met people who buy domestic cars because they want to keep assembly-line jobs in America. Ironically, these tend to be older people who listen to Rush Limbaugh and are also anti-union!)
The fate of both the UAW and the Big Three is in the hands of management and the union. They need to stop blaming everyone else, and realize that for the past 30+ years, they teamed up to produce a lot of really lousy products, which alienated buyers. These buyers have found viable alternatives from other manufacturers, who do not use UAW labor.
Management and labor created the problem, and only they can fix it.
Blaming currency manipulation, Consumer Reports, people who buy imports, or dealers who secretly swap defective parts when the car is brought in for service is a waste of time.
rockylee: I am very Pro Germany, as I have mostly German, blood flowing through my veins but I'm a american first !!!
I have German blood flowing through my veins, too. But as an American, I have little patience for whining, excuses or crybaby-like behavior. I spend my automotive dollars on companies that at least LOOK like they are trying.
rockylee: I do honestly believe John Reid Edwards, is the one candidate who would make a difference for the UAW workers.
I didn't know that John Edwards is an automotive engineer or stylist, or that he understands how to improve plant layout to boost quality and efficiency. Wonder how he'll be able to pull off those duties for the Big Three while leading the United States, too...
rockylee: It is an emotional drain seeing so many of my fellow country men struggle to put food on the table and gas in the tank.
I agree. Fortunately, many people I know drive reliable, fuel-efficient Toyotas and Hondas, which makes that struggle easier. They aren't spending as much on car repairs, depreciation or gas.
Time will tell if unions like the United Auto Workers and IUE-CWA survive or not. I believe if they die so does the country as fintail, says the serf n' elite society will be a reality. :sick:
-Rocky
1943 -1952 Los Angeles Mother and grandmother worked in sewing factories piece work Father was in WW2 left my mom on his return 1946.
1952 - 1956 Portland Oregon when my Mom married my step dad. He was going to college in Portland on GI bill and working at Nabisco making them stinking OREO cookies. This was the poorest time in my life.
1957 Los Angeles
1958 - 1970 San Diego. went to work for Pac Tel and folks left in 1961 looking for work elsewhere.
1970 -1977 Anchorage RCA Alascom great job
1977 - 1980 bought a farm in Minnesota and went through $100k in savings trying to make a small farm work with that loser Jimmy Carter destroying the economy.
1980 back to Alaska where I could make a living until I retired in 2006
CWA member 1961 to 1970
Teamsters 959 from 1970 to retirement
Carpenters Union in MN 1979 trying to keep the farm going while working 75 miles from home.
My folks never accumulated anything. My step Dad had to file for bankruptcy when my mom died because of the medical bills from being in the hospital for 6 days. He worked as a carpenter till he was 78 years old. They were your typical Republican family. My biological father who has also passed away, owned a very successful Tool and Die business in Orange County. He was a typical well to do Democrat. So you see we have a totally different view of history and the political parties.
Being in 3 different Unions I did see how they operated. I was on the "E" board for several years at the Teamsters. I watched the demise of Unions in Alaska. The last big drop was in 1990 when the deals made with the Oil Companies ended. Our Union boss hammered out a 50% Union hire agreement for building the pipeline and subsequent maintenance in the early 1970s. When that agreement expired the pink slips went out to most of the Union workers in the Prudhoe Bay oil field. The old Union Companies folded and returned as Non-Union with new names and the same old faces. Many, many Union guys pulled their retirement money out of the Teamsters and came back Non-Union doing the same jobs. That was tough on our retirement fund and the Union as a whole. It had NOTHING to do with outsourcing or offshore workers. It was companies tired of dealing with Unions. I blame the truck drivers mainly. They took $150k to $300k cash out of the retirement fund quit the Union and came back as a Non union driver. Many UAW companies have done the same thing. They just go where they do not have to deal with the Union. Close a plant in Michigan and open one in Ireland or Taiwan or Mississippi. Where ever they find people willing to work at a competitive wage. That would be most of the world outside Michigan. Why would any company in their right mind build a new plant in Michigan where they know that they will be dealing with workers that feel ENTITLED to a better wage package than folks 500 miles south.
RCA Alascom sent me to 4 months of school in 1971 down in Johnson City Tennessee. It was a North Electric factory that had pulled out of Ohio in 1970. They took a few key people and hired all new factory workers in TN. The migration from the high cost of labor in the Midwest started long before Ronald Reagan. It was not a political issue in 1970 and it is not a political issue now. It is all about economics. You cannot build a widget and sell it at a profit, when you pay too much for labor. I think you will find the concept goes back 100s of years.
Will the Cadillacs, huge SUV's, the new 'Bu and the new sling of huge pick-em-up trucks sell in large enough numbers to satisfy the bean-counters and give those excessively large wages to the UAW throngs.
Will Chrysler survive and will their agreement with Chery Motors of China produce America-ready dinky cars to sell here and in Mexico, Canada, South America, Europe, China, etc. It's a big, wide automotive world but I just got an image in my mind of the Titanic(GM, Ford, Chrysler)seeing a huge iceberg and turning hard to the left. Slowly, slowly, why won't she turn any faster? Creaking, huge ship turning as hard and fast as she can. :surprise:
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"Delco, as imidazol97' knows all to well was a great unionized employer. The steel mills in Penn. where lemko, lives were great union jobs. The General Motors Factory's, General Electric, Steel Case, to name a few were great paying jobs."...yes, and they either priced themselves out of the market where the plant was moved, or they can use robots to replace humans, and robots do not get drunk, call in sick, or have some entitlement attitude ingrained into them by previous generations of union militants...
Face it, no president will bring ONE job back to Michigan, as Michigan is anti-business...if one must deal with unions, either in their workers or their suppliers, there is an antagonism that can only be alleviated by NOT setting up shop in Michigan...
rocky, reality is not oly slamming you in the face now, but it will get worse in the future...Michigan offers NOTHING that cannot be offered by another state that is cheaper, more business-friendly, warmer, and comes without a union you-owe-it-to-me attitude...you can bluster all you want, but when you look around you, the last thing you will see is job growth...businesses are leaving Michigan as fast as the interstate will let them drive, except those few businesses that are stuck there...
Unless you are financially independent, Michigan will get worse for employment over time...
Tell me what Michigan offers that is not cheaper and better in the South...
Just remember many times you get what you pay for !!!!
When this country goes belly up which I predict it will with your dream serf n' elite society and non-union culture I don't want to hear ya'll whining. :sick:
-Rocky
P.S. Gagrice, very interesting story pal.
So, are you saying that everybody should just abandon the North and move South??
.....economics, and union folks simply are incapable of understanding that some (or much) of the work they do costs too much for the skill involved in doing it...placing a wheel on a hub or sweeping the floor simply is NOT worth $30 and hour plus benefits...
Well, if Toyota can pay a compareable wage in Ky and make money, then the wage must be spot on. The focus seems to have more to do with the QUALITY of the product than the people making it, and THAT can be seen in the rave reviews and demand for products like the '08 CTS, Malibu and Enclave. They sell, and sell for more than their predecessors because they are BETTER despite being built by the same union "slugs". 10 years ago when the Big 3 were selling every truck and SUV they made, these salaries were also justified because of the obcene profits being made on each one. And again, they sold because they were quality vehicles. I will NEVER get over this POMPOUS ARROGANT attitude of demanding lower wages because YOU think they have no skill.
As a lawyer, explain this to me: If ANYONE of a certain age can be elected to MAKE laws then why must you get a law degree to PRACTICE law? I know legally we may represent ourselves in court, but isn't there a saying about only a fool would represent themselves? As a citizen, just like the president represents ME, it is also MY legislature, and MY judiciary, yet LAWYERS seem to rule the roost there. I would say if any idiot can hang a bumper, then any idiot can read a law, interperet in THEIR OWN WAY, and form an OPINION.
The Big Three's competitive disadvantage wasn't because of wage disparity. Toyota (and Honda) knew that if it tried to undercut the UAW wage rates too much, it would serve as an open invitation to a unionization drive.
Where the transplants come out ahead is in a variety of areas, one of which is more efficient work rules. It doesn't take three union workers to change a light bulb, and "that's not my job" is not part of the language in their plants.
This is why, during 2007, Ford had been quietly working with the UAW to implement competitive operating agreements (COAs) in all of its plants. Ford and the UAW had successfully negotiated new COAs for all but a handful of the Ford plants PRIOR to last year's contract negotiations.
Granted, the UAW tends to have a better relationship with Ford than with Chrysler and GM, but I don't think that Mr. Gettelfinger would have sanctioned these COAs if he didn't believe that Ford needed to become more competitive in this area. GM has been working with the UAW to implement COAs in its plants, too, but GM tends to lag behind Ford in labor relations.
The second big advantage is health care costs. The Big Three provide very generous health care plans, with little or no co-payments, to both members and retirees. This is why the UAW agreed to the VEBA in the new contract.
The transplants provide more cost-efficient (but less generous) plans to employees, and it is my understanding that their retirees rely on Medicare.
Finally, the transplants have been much more disciplined in how they run plants. I know that Rockylee doesn't want to hear this, but the daily absentee rate at the transplants is about 1-2 percent of the workforce, compared to about 10-12 percent of the Big Three plants. That type of absentee rate hurts productivity and quality. And, yes, the UAW (usually union locals, not the national headquarters) has often blocked the effort to fire or at least discipline the slackers who are ruining it for everyone else.
Saying, "UAW members make so many dollars per year, and are overpaid, and are thus the root of the Big Three's problems," is easy (everyone understands the concept of take-home pay, and that pay usually rises with level of education), but incorrect. The real problem is much more complicated, but the UAW isn't completely blameless. On the other hand, with the latest contract, I see Mr. Gettelfinger and the union leadership accepting reality, even if Rockylee doesn't like it.