rockylee: guess the ones to Harbour, weren't credible ???
The Harbour studies that I've seen rate plant productivity.
rockylee: Well if the Big 3, would of been caught doing this their would of been a out cry for law suits because it was after all against the law.
If it's against the law for the Big Three, it is against the law for the Japanese, too.
There are safety defects that must be corrected with a recall, as ordered by NHTSA. If NHTSA determines that a safety defect (i.e, one that makes the vehicle unsafe to operate) exists, the company that made the vehicle must order a recall, which means that the company MUST directly notify customers to bring their vehicles into a dealer to have the repair made, free of charge. If the repair has already been made, the company must reimburse the customer.
Given that EVERY company, including Toyota, has issued official recalls after being ordered to do so by NHTSA, it's obvious that no one company is getting a "pass" on this subject.
If a company is repairing NON-SAFETY defects (for example, the radio display goes dim, or the power door locks quit working, or the transmission fails) out of warranty, that is not against the law. Any company can do this. If a company chooses not to, then it must live with the consequences.
rockylee: The Big 3 went through enough law suits in the past to not even dare cover up defects and the biased media outlets were getting multi-million dollar advertising campaigns from toyota, and went along with the "sweetest perfection" image.
If any company covers up safety-related defects, it will be the subject of lawsuits and, ultimately, a recall ordered by NHTSA.
Perhaps you are talking about "secret warranties," where companies only repair widespread defects if the customer screams loud enough. GM has done this recently - when the intake manifold gasket on my co-worker's 2000 Impala failed, the dealer was ready to charge her the full price of repair. After I found the TSB on the web, and gave it to her, the dealer suddenly remembered that GM had a program to help customers with this repair, and the cost was slashed dramatically. Sorry, but that practice isn't dead among the Big Three. The above scenario happened in 2004, which isn't that long ago.
Often the above practice results in a class action suit, which, in turn, results in the automaker being forced to extend warranties. But this happened to Honda with its defective automatic transmissions in several vehicles, so it's not as though attorneys are ignoring problems with Japanese cars. Plaintiff's attorneys love a juicy target, and the money from Honda or Toyota is just as green as the money from GM or Ford.
As for Toyota advertising buying silence from critics - odd, given that GM spends lots of money on advertising, too.
rockylee: Oh well times are changing !!!! The Big 3, especially GM, are turning around !!!! We are making some of the best products on the market today. Some of the presidential candidates on both sides promise to fix Michigan, and the automobile industry. We will see if they can keep their word.
And, in one paragraph, we have a perfect example of the mentality that has been slowly decimating the Big Three and the UAW.
It's always the responsibility of someone else to fix the domestic auto industry's problems - customers, Consumer Reports, foreign automakers, and, now presidential candidates.
There are two parties that can fix the GM, Ford and Chrysler, and I don't mean Democrats and Republicans - the management of those companies, and the UAW. They need to work together, and stop the finger-pointing, and do what it takes to improve the product.
There are two parties that can fix the GM, Ford and Chrysler, and I don't mean Democrats and Republicans - the management of those companies, and the UAW. They need to work together, and stop the finger-pointing, and do what it takes to improve the product.
The UAW and GM, Ford, Chrysler, can only do so much. We are the only 1st world country that has no protectionist clauses for our business and workers. :mad:
Government responsibility's !!!!!
#1 Fix the Currency Manipulation
#2 Set Tariffs on all imports because they do it to us !!!!
#3 Set Trade Barriers similar to the way Japan, does it to us !!!
1. Currency manipulation - given that the domestics have continued to lose market share, regardless of the relationship of the yen to the dollar, I doubt that this will help much, or that any "fix" will cure what ails the auto industry.
2. Tariffs - there are two problems here. One, the adoption of tariffs by the U.S. would encourage retaliation from other countries against U.S. products. This would hurt those companies that export products. (If you doubt that, research what the Hawley-Smoot tariff of 1930 did to turn what should have been a recession into the Great Depression.)
Again, you need to think beyond Michigan.
Two, the Big Three are getting beaten by companies building products right here in the U.S., so tariffs on imports would not provide any real long-term relief. It would only encourage Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai to shift even more production to the U.S.
3. Trade barriers similar to those set by Japan - there are three problems here. The first I've mentioned above - the main Japanese companies already build a large percentage of their products here, so that wouldn't work. If you are talking about discouraging foreign investment in U.S.-based facilities, that is nothing more than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We benefit from when companies build plants here. Maybe Michigan, the UAW and the Big Three don't benefit, but the country is much larger than those parties, and any legislator worth his or her salt is going to look at the much larger picture.
Second, foreign companies can sell vehicles in Japan - the Germans are quite successful in this regard, because of the status and prestige enjoyed by BWM, Mercedes and Porsche among the Japanese elite. If the Big Three produced more vehicles that actually appealed to Japanese customers, they would have better luck selling to them.
Third, the Japanese economy has not been too healthy for years, so a rational observer would conclude that any barriers to entry have hurt, rather than helped, them in the long run.
87.03 Motor cars and other motor vehicles principally designed for the transport of persons (other than those of heading 87.02), including station wagons and racing cars
Does not say it's free !!!!
Am I the only one who doesn't see the built in trade barriers on motorcycles, etc ? :confuse:
As John Edwards, Ron Paul, Duncan Hunter, have said we need to pull out of the WTO if we can't come to an agreement. They need us alot more than we need them !!!! :mad:
As for currency manipulation, what are you suggesting? making one Japanese Yen equals one US dollar?
Tariff the Japanese, products to make up for the manipulation is one idea proposed by Hunter, Paul, Edwards.
1. Currency manipulation - given that the domestics have continued to lose market share, regardless of the relationship of the yen to the dollar, I doubt that this will help much, or that any "fix" will cure what ails the auto industry.
Continue to lose market share ??? Last time I checked GM, is doing mighty fine against Toyota. They sell a helluva alot more cars than toyota here in the U.S. and are still #1 worldwide so please don't give me any of your crap because like marsha7, you will be wearing depends adult diapers. :P Just think what a level playing field would do ??? You would see Ford, rebound as they are no longer under cut by the Japanese !!!
2. Tariffs - there are two problems here. One, the adoption of tariffs by the U.S. would encourage retaliation from other countries against U.S. products. This would hurt those companies that export products. (If you doubt that, research what the Hawley-Smoot tariff of 1930 did to turn what should have been a recession into the Great Depression.)
Obviously you do not understand economics and can't comprehend (like others I know ) their is a economic problem with a trade deficit. Our trade deficit with China is $150 billion and rising. We have a trade deficit with almost every country because they are allowed to "dump" on our market for free while they protect theirs. Wonder why your money is becoming worthless and inflation is on the rise ??? Some economist are predicting a major recession that could be worse than the Great Depression. The world feels the U.S. has lost a lot of its finacial security borrowing so much from China, thus they are buying the Euro. If that isn't like looking through a crystal ball then I'm not sure what is ? Why are the most wealthiest in this country buying physical precious metals ???
Again, you need to think beyond Michigan.
Oh I have and I can see all these sub-prime mortgages destroying the economy's of more than michigan. imidazol97, said it's not just a one state recession. He lives in Ohio, and they are facing similar conditions.
Two, the Big Three are getting beaten by companies building products right here in the U.S., so tariffs on imports would not provide any real long-term relief. It would only encourage Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai to shift even more production to the U.S.
Toyota, still imports 51% of their products into the U.S. Honda, imports 49% into the U.S. and Toyota, is expected to manufactor their future small cars outside the U.S. I welcome them coming here. Atleast they wouldn't be getting the manipulation advantage but wouldstill be able to ship the profits back to Japan.
3. Trade barriers similar to those set by Japan - there are three problems here. The first I've mentioned above - the main Japanese companies already build a large percentage of their products here, so that wouldn't work. If you are talking about discouraging foreign investment in U.S.-based facilities, that is nothing more than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We benefit from when companies build plants here. Maybe Michigan, the UAW and the Big Three don't benefit, but the country is much larger than those parties, and any legislator worth his or her salt is going to look at the much larger picture.
OMG, you really have not looked at the numbers have you ??? :confuse: For every three big 3 jobs lost only one transplant job replaced it and granted those jobs that replaced it made half the money in terms of pay and benefits. Hyundai, only pays $13 or $14 an hour, offers no pension or retiree healthcare benefits meaning those folks are headed to medicare and living off of your nickle. I like you grbeck, but man you are spreading incorrect information.
Second, foreign companies can sell vehicles in Japan - the Germans are quite successful in this regard, because of the status and prestige enjoyed by BWM, Mercedes and Porsche among the Japanese elite. If the Big Three produced more vehicles that actually appealed to Japanese customers, they would have better luck selling to them.
Yes, the Germans are able to sell their high dollar vehicles to the wealthy in Japan. That isn't GM's intended market. The bottom line it's not a equal playing field and when I point this out and "prove it" some of you can swallow facts and try to spinit saying they wouldn't buy our stuff so it doesn't matter. That's a flat-out poor excuse !!! :mad:
Third, the Japanese economy has not been too healthy for years, so a rational observer would conclude that any barriers to entry have hurt, rather than helped, them in the long run.
Well they are having to compete with China and India for our business. We are headed down the same path. It's not like Sony TV's are made in Japan, any more and since they became a pseudo-capitalist society their businesses off-shored and they now have a "surf n' elite" society. I know that's silverfox5's and marsha7's golden eutopia but it's not mine and many others. Man you guys both sound alot like brightness04 and socala4 :surprise:
Quote "Some of the presidential candidates on both sides promise to fix Michigan, and the automobile industry. We will see if they can keep their word."...
rocky, you just gotta grow up...you cannot continue to carry on with this childish attitude that ANY politician will bring back jobs to Michigan...using tax policy and other items, they may assist in bringing business to this country (or stop forcing our companies to leave because of excessive regulation or taxes), but NO ONE, not Mitt Romney or any Democrat, will be able to put business in Michigan, and you simply cannot continue to live in the dream world of the 50s and 60s where the unions wrote their own ticket...
To my understanding, I think Forbes, Fortune or Money Magazine rated Michigan as a poor state for business...unions (both the entitlement mentality and higher wage structure and restrictove work rules), higher business taxes, excessive work comp costs, more useless regulation than other states, and the physical climate of snow and cold weather...why would anyone set up a major business there when the South has NONE of those negatives???
Michigan can claim an "experienced work force"...considering that it is unionized with higher costs, and new workers can be easily trained for auto work, the experienced work force is more of a negative than a positive...
Your governor and legislature can lower taxes and the work comp problem, but don't worry, as they won't...
Anyone in high school had better not count on employment in the auto industry, they should read the handwriting and train for something else...
What are ANY reasons that a company would set up shop in Michigan as compared to the South???
Stop looking to the politicians, look in yourself and find something outside of the Big 3 for employment...any advisor that would counsel someone to seek work in the North in the Big 3 should have their certification revoked...
Well in 1997-1999 we were selling around 18-19 million vehicles (Alot of GM Trucks/SUVs) a year and that total has dropped significantly downward to 16 million a year with $3-4 dollar gas and Toyota, has always focuses itself on the car market but things are changing and GM & Ford, that I know of is going to challenge them. God only knows what Chrysler, is going to do ??? :surprise:
Well they aren't well off by any means but they are making it. The GM newbie makes considerable less than the toyota workers now thus an article today in the detnews.
It may be the only way GM and Ford can survive is by paying some of the workers less than Toyota. It may be the only way Michigan can survive. You should be thankful for the new contracts. With gas and groceries going up we will all be fortunate to survive. Especially if we were to go into a full blown depression.
A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs.
It may be the only way GM and Ford can survive is by paying some of the workers less than Toyota. It may be the only way Michigan can survive. You should be thankful for the new contracts. With gas and groceries going up we will all be fortunate to survive. Especially if we were to go into a full blown depression.
If we were to go into a great depression those mediocre contracts would be voided and I would be out of a job selling cars because nobody would buy any.
That is exactly right. You would be in a soup line or growing your own food. There is something to be said for owning a farm even if it does not make any money. If you have stashed enough gold coins you can always buy seeds. Get some chickens and a goat. Won't be luxury. But survival is the name of the game in a depression. Only a few folks left that were old enough to remember the depression. The UAW did not even exist until late into the depression.
I sure do not want to see another one. The worst recession I have survived was 1977-1980. Double digit inflation and 20% interest. The only folks getting rich were the ones with money in Treasury bills.
"I guess you missed the contract talks ??? A new UAW worker at GM, makes $14 an hour. Last time I knew Toyota, was paying $19 to start and once they complete their training they are making $22 an hour. After about 3 or 4 years they are up to $27 an hr. and get killer bonuses. Last year they got $10K or an equivalent of $3 an hour."
Hey Rocky, guess what? Apparently somebody is getting the picture. According to the link you supplied in an above post: "A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs." So according to you the new contract pays new hired workers $14 per hour. And according to the link, supplied by you, that is 1/3 what they were/are paying traditional workers. They are paying a a person, right off the street, under the new contracts, which are a third of what they were, $14 an hour to install parts. So what were they making before the new contracts?? :confuse:
"Not here they don't !!! I have relatives that are nurses or will be nurses. My cousin Michael, last I knew makes $35 bucks an hour."
Pay scales will vary some according to cost of living in different locations. Here in Ga., the top pay for BSRN with 4 years of college, and working the day shift is more like $32 hourly. Or course if they go into management positions or work different shifts they will make more. However starting pay is more in the $15 -$17 hourly. Depending on the hospital etc... It takes several years and lots of continued education to reach that $32+/- figure. And we are talking about dealing with life and death vs installing a bumper. Something is wrong with that picture.
"Well explain to me how union labor in japan, does it ???? They (JAW) make a lot more than the UAW, workers plus get pension benefits, and gobs of paid time off"
I don't know how JAW works, I don't live in Japan. My understanding is that Japan has been a victim of runaway inflation for several years. Salaries and wages are ridiculously high in all sectors. Are you saying that UAW workers don't get pension bennefits, medical, and paid time off?
"I guess you missed the contract talks ??? A new UAW worker at GM, makes $14 an hour. Last time I knew Toyota, was paying $19 to start and once they complete their training they are making $22 an hour. After about 3 or 4 years they are up to $27 an hr. and get killer bonuses. Last year they got $10K or an equivalent of $3 an hour."
I will have to take your word for that. However keep in mind that bonuses are generally in line with profit sharing. Answer this for me: Under the old contracts, how much was/is an UAW worker making after say 5-8 years?
"So you are saying that Ford, should fix it out of warranty ??? If Honda, fixes them out of warranty then why not advertise it that customers have a lifetime warranty."
Ford would go out of business fixing things out of warranty, because they have such an abundance of things that go wrong. Honda, on the other hand does not have that much problem. Here is an example: The Honda Oddessy had problems with some of the transmissions. Seems the years were 1999-2001. The reason for the 2-3 year span is because the failures were not showing up until 50K-60K miles. Not only did Honda replace the transmissions, they also put a 100K warranty on all the affected year models. Ford simply told my mom, You are out of warranty, you owe us $3500, TWICE! Same with a friend with his 200_ F150 at around 50K miles.
FWIW: Just before I retired from IBM I was talking with a friend that worked at GM in Doraville. I was taking care of Millions of dollars of equipment and dealing with top executives of Coca Cola, and several Large law firms. He was installing dash boards and making about 20% more than me. And I was doing very well!
My son works for a major Japanese vehicle builder, and has tons of responsibility as a trouble shooter among other things. They have sent him all over the States and to several foreign countries. According to a close friend that worked in upper management at Ford Hapeville, a person at Ford with the same responsibilities as my son would be earning just about double my son's wage. And my son makes a good living !
Keep in mind the Hapeville and the Doraville plants are now history. Those over paid folks are looking for work. Good show UAW. You bullied them into not existence. Good show top executives, you raised your salaries into non existence. :sick:
Tuesday my son traded his GT Mustang for a new Honda Ridgeline. No he doesn't work for Honda. He has had an F150, a Late 90s T-Bird, a Tacoma 4wd that he put near 200K on, and the 2001 Mustang. I asked why he didn't get an F150. "Dad, Fords just don't hold up for me. I'll stick with Rice Burners"!
And yes GM is still #1 world wide. But, not just with the stuff they make here. They have a lot of interest in other brands such as Opel, Saab, and bits and pieces of others. But that #1 position is shrinking fast. In spite of the fact that they had a long head start.
Hopefully the powers will see the light and trade excessive salaries/wages for good quality parts that will enable the big 3 to sell a quality product at a competitive price.
rockylee: Continue to lose market share ??? Last time I checked GM, is doing mighty fine against Toyota. They sell a helluva alot more cars than toyota here in the U.S. and are still #1 worldwide so please don't give me any of your crap because like marsha7, you will be wearing depends adult diapers. Just think what a level playing field would do ??? You would see Ford, rebound as they are no longer under cut by the Japanese !!!
The Big Three continue to lose market share. GM has SLOWED its decline, but the last time I checked, it was still losing market share in the American market. Ford has LOST 10 points of market share in the U.S. over the last decade! Chrysler is just about out of the passenger car business if you subtract rental car sales from the total sales of its cars. The Ram pickup, Jeep Wrangler and minivans are keeping it afloat.
GM is doing well in other markets, particularly the Chinese market. In fact, the profits generated in China are helping to keep the corporation afloat, as GM continues to lose money in North America.
Perhaps the U.S. should slap tariffs on Chinese goods, and the Chinese government can retaliate by kicking GM out of China and nationalizing its factories. That would be great for GM, now wouldn't it?
I'm not happy about the state of the Big Three, but papering over their problems does no one any good, and Mitt Romney (or whoever wins the election) isn't going to save them.
The only reason we are getting such good products as the Fusion/Milan, Taurus/Taurus X, Mustang, CTS, Acadia/Outlook/Enclave and Malibu is because the Big Three have been getting whipped, and the UAW and management now realize it, and are (finally) getting their act together. They have to keep improving quality, weeding out slow sellers, and streamlining their dealer networks.
rockylee: Obviously you do not understand economics and can't comprehend (like others I know ) their is a economic problem with a trade deficit. Our trade deficit with China is $150 billion and rising.
The companies whipping the domestics are based in Japan and Korea, not China, so what does this have to do with the plight of the Big Three? There are no Chinese-made vehicles available for sale in the United States.
rockylee: We have a trade deficit with almost every country because they are allowed to "dump" on our market for free while they protect theirs. Wonder why your money is becoming worthless and inflation is on the rise ???
Rocky, our money is "worthless" because organizations such as the UAW have been arguing for a "cheaper" dollar.
Why? It makes American-made goods cheaper to export!
You are getting what you say that want when the dollar declines in value relative to other currencies!
rockylee: Oh I have and I can see all these sub-prime mortgages destroying the economy's of more than michigan. imidazol97, said it's not just a one state recession. He lives in Ohio, and they are facing similar conditions.
Okay, then you need to think beyond the Industrial Midwest.
rockylee: Toyota, still imports 51% of their products into the U.S. Honda, imports 49% into the U.S. and Toyota, is expected to manufactor their future small cars outside the U.S. I welcome them coming here. Atleast they wouldn't be getting the manipulation advantage but wouldstill be able to ship the profits back to Japan.
The trend for the Japanese over the past decade has been to design, engineer and build here an increasing percentage of the vehicles that they sell here. This trend will continue over the long-term. It wasn't too long ago that well over 90 percent of Hondas and Toyotas sold here were imported from Japan.
rockylee: OMG, you really have not looked at the numbers have you ??? For every three big 3 jobs lost only one transplant job replaced it and granted those jobs that replaced it made half the money in terms of pay and benefits.
If every three Big Three jobs lost have been replaced by one transplant job, and total automobile production in the U.S. is the same as it was in 1978, the logical conclusion is that the Big Three were wildly overstaffed, which in turn was a big part of their problems.
rockylee: Well they are having to compete with China and India for our business. We are headed down the same path. It's not like Sony TV's are made in Japan, any more and since they became a pseudo-capitalist society their businesses off-shored and they now have a "surf n' elite" society.
Rocky, the Japanese economy has been in the dumps since the early 1990s, long before China and India became major competitive challengers.
Rocky, nothing lasts forever. The Big Three and the UAW had a wonderful ride from 1945-1980. Unfortunately, decades of success breed laziness, and both management and labor got lazy, thinking that they were owed some sort of allegiance from customers. Well, a large percentage of car buyers had other ideas, and in a free-market society, the customer is ultimately the final arbiter of which companies live and which companies die. No presidential candidate is going to put forth a proposal to restrict customers' ability to buy Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, VWs, Hyundais with tariffs or anything else, because such a candidate would lose the election.
so much of the above post, but I would like to add a little...
Quote: "rockylee: OMG, you really have not looked at the numbers have you ??? For every three big 3 jobs lost only one transplant job replaced it and granted those jobs that replaced it made half the money in terms of pay and benefits.
If every three Big Three jobs lost have been replaced by one transplant job, and total automobile production in the U.S. is the same as it was in 1978, the logical conclusion is that the Big Three were wildly overstaffed, which in turn was a big part of their problems.
rockylee: Well they are having to compete with China and India for our business. We are headed down the same path. It's not like Sony TV's are made in Japan, any more and since they became a pseudo-capitalist society their businesses off-shored and they now have a "surf n' elite" society.
Rocky, the Japanese economy has been in the dumps since the early 1990s, long before China and India became major competitive challengers"...unquote
The falsehoods from his immaturity and lack of knowledge are growing larger by the day...he can only see the simple absolute that 3 union jobs were lost, as though they exist by divine right, but the fact that it only took one transplant job to replace it and maintain the same production means that he fails to comprehend the money wasting concept of UNION FEATHERBEDDING, meaning that they forced the automakers to hire thousands to do the job that only required hundreds...so, when those (fake) "jobs" are eliminated, they really did not destroy any jobs, they simply dumped unneeded overhead that no properly run business would have incurred from the beginning...if you understand "divine right", then you will understand that rocky cannot understand how so many workers cannot be needed, or that they "deserve" their jobs, simply because they are ordained by a higher power...well, in this case, the higher power is the marketplace, not the entitly we worship on Sunday (or whatever your day is)...
The simple fact is that if the carmakers were properly run, they never would have dumped hundreds of thousands of workers over the years because they never would have hired them because they simply were not needed...they hired six people to do the work of two, got away with it for a number of years, and created the union welfare entitlement mentality and suffered until they wised uop and dumped the useless workers...now they stand a chance, hopefully, with better products and fewer workers to screw up the process...
As far as the Japanese, their stock market, the Nikkei Dow, was rising like a banshee in the 1980s up to around 40,000, all based on their overinflated real estate (it was once said that Tokyo was worth more than the (State of California)...once they realized that it was all a myth, that all of JAPAN was not worth the value of California, their stock market crashed, in 1990, to about 15,000, about 1/3 of its value (kind of a precursor to our dot com fraud boom)...it stayed there for almost 15 years, and is just recently starting to move up...they reduced their interest rates to zero, and it still did not help...
Once again, the lack of maturity and ignorance of the past disqualifies the young from making comments on something they are simply unaware...
Yes, the Japanese did buy our assets, like Rockefeller Center and Pebble beach golf course...but they sold them back at 10 cents on the dollar, and what were they going to do with them anyway, move them to Okinawa???...
The simple lack of information, from which vehement opinions are formed, is beginning to surprise me...
Hey Rocky, guess what? Apparently somebody is getting the picture. According to the link you supplied in an above post: "A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs." So according to you the new contract pays new hired workers $14 per hour. And according to the link, supplied by you, that is 1/3 what they were/are paying traditional workers. They are paying a a person, right off the street, under the new contracts, which are a third of what they were, $14 an hour to install parts. So what were they making before the new contracts??
The way it was before was you would startout at $18 and change a hour and after 3 1/2 or 4 years you would beat the top of the pay scale which was $27 and change an hour.... Remember, the new folks get no pension and are making about $14 an hour until they can move into a higher paying job that is directly related to car building. I guess that is a great job today and tells me just how many steps they have taken back.
I will have to take your word for that. However keep in mind that bonuses are generally in line with profit sharing. Answer this for me: Under the old contracts, how much was/is an UAW worker making after say 5-8 years?
$28 an hour for certain jobs but the new folks will have to wait years before they get those. The vets that couldn't afford to retire have all those jobs locked up.
Kip, you seem like a very nice guy but your son buying a Ridgeline :surprise: I would of told him to buy a real truck !!! Maybe next time, eh ???
Your surf n' elite agenda is really showing your true colors !!
I think you mean "serf"
1. A person in a condition of servitude, required to render services to a lord, commonly attached to the lord's land and transferred with it from one owner to another. 2. A slave.
You know the people that Edwards, Kennedy & Gore have to keep their mega mansions cleaned. You are right, they are all elitists.
you can even dance to a rainy song if you crank up The Guess Who's song 'Rain Dance.' I totally agree with you.
rockylee...I needed to do a similar thing when receiving my pink slip from Boeing. Fortunately Pres.Carter's Administration started up The Trade Act in 1974 to enable laid off workers to retrain. And retrain on the Fed.govt's dime no less. If I were a laid off UAW worker I'd be pestering my manager and/or union rep for information about eligibility for The Trade Act. UAW workers are being laid off due to foreign competition. In my case it was Airbus Industrie.
If these people wait for the storm to pass(the import invasion is too far gone for the Big Three to recover enough to keep all of those jobs now)they're gonna be waiting around watching the grass grow with all of that rain, and their bills are going to mount up in the meantime.
Complacency is an evil feature to let sit in to a corporate attitude. I agree with rocky when he says that GM, Ford and Chrysler management and engineering crews are more to blame for losing market share so badly. Not the average UAW worker. But the UAW and their job banks and high demands for compensation have helped to cripple the domestics in their battle.
Look! I just saw that grass push up a tad...even in this rain. Hey, turn up the stereo man, I love that Guess Who tune 'Rain Dance!'
I have no reason to doubt your numbers. Seems that you have put a lot of thought and research into your ideas.
However, it is somewhat confusing to me, because according to the link/article you supplied, the "new hire" pay are are cut by 1/3. You are saying that under the "NEW" plan, new hires start out at $14 hourly. That would indicate that under the old plan the starting pay was more like $21ish.
But I/we are splitting hairs. My position is simple. Unions in general can be good as far as working conditions and "Fair Pay" for the job done. However the UAW and it's members got entirely too greedy over the years. The upper management did the same. Entirely too much money being paid for too many people and not enough being paid for quality parts and upgrading assembly techniques.
Hopefully they are seeing the light and beginning to understand that an over abundance of people and overpaying them are resulting in death to the corporation.
Heck, I grew up with Detroit Iron. Bought my 1st car, a '39 Ford Coupe, in 1956. I was 15. I was driving the 4th car (55 Plymouth convertible) when I graduated high school in '59. I love cars!
Somewhere around the 80's it became apparent that detroit was fighting change furiously. Meanwhile, those "Beer Can" rice burners were getting popular, running good, getting fairly good mileage, agile to drive, and not breaking much. So were the VW rabbits and such. Although the Rabbits did seem to have reliability problems that mirrored Detroit. We (I) kept buying Detroit and kept being disappointed.
If and when Detroit decides to start building a quality car, I will be glad to buy one. I didn't abandon them, they abandoned me!
"Kip, you seem like a very nice guy but your son buying a Ridgeline I would of told him to buy a real truck !!! Maybe next time, eh ??? "
Well...Maybe!
I forgot the Dodge Dakota that he traded his T-Bird for. When the transmission started acting up at 70K or so miles, he swapped it for the Mustang. He drove a bunch of different "trucks" before purchasing the Ridgeline. He drove mid size and Large from the Big 3 as well as from Toyota and Nissan. The Ridgeline "Fit" his needs better than the rest. Over this past summer my next door neighbor spent "Most" of the summer driving trucks to replace his 97 Dakota. I was with him most of the drives. He also bought a Ridgeline. While they don't look like a conventional truck, they drive and ride great. They are not designed for rock climbing or towing mega ton trailers, but they do very well for their intended purpose. Come to think of it, cars don't look much like they used to either!
We don't want a dictator - Republican or Democrat.
The only way any candidate will help the Big Three is to give them some sort of government aid (paid for with taxpayers' dollars - if taxpayers really wanted to give money to the Big Three, they would take the easier and more direct route and buy one of their products).
They will not lobby for any tariffs (which would be aimed squarely at South Korea, Japan and Germany - a great way to keep our allies happy!), and they will not do anything to hurt the transplant operations.
In other words, the troops are not coming over the hill to rescue the Big Three after the November elections, regardless of promises made during the heat of primary season...
BRUSSELS, Jan 18 (Reuters) - Workers at Ford Motor Co's plant in Belgium have gone on strike, chiefly over higher wage claims, and a mediator is seeking to bridge differences between unions and management, a union official said on Friday.
Meanwhile Gettelfinger is touting how the new UAW contract saves the Detroit 3 enough money to enable the automakers to design and build new and better products.
He also said:
"Speculation by individuals who haven't seen any data has absolutely no value,"
I have no reason to doubt your numbers. Seems that you have put a lot of thought and research into your ideas.
However, it is somewhat confusing to me, because according to the link/article you supplied, the "new hire" pay are are cut by 1/3. You are saying that under the "NEW" plan, new hires start out at $14 hourly. That would indicate that under the old plan the starting pay was more like $21ish.
Kip, the 1/3 is incorrect. It really doesn't matter because up until a year and half-two years ago GM, didn't hire anybody since 99' !!! The last big hiring of any large scale was in 1995'. I would of been hired at GM, if only I was old enough.
Kip, you send him (your son) my way next time and I'll hook him up !!!
As far as blaming either side goes well we can but if you look at it closely like I have Kip, you would see that between all the unfair trade, currency manipulation, trade barriers, it's amazing GM, is able to turn-around and be competitive. :sick:
grbeck, you are so short-sighted. I know you have a strong dislike for union made stuff and that plays a roll in your thinking. Anything UAW, is evil right ?
I am very Pro Germany, as I have mostly German, blood flowing through my veins but I'm a american first !!! I do honestly believe John Reid Edwards, is the one candidate who would make a difference for the UAW workers.
It is an emotional drain seeing so many of my fellow country men struggle to put food on the table and gas in the tank. :sick:
It is an emotional drain seeing so many of my fellow country men struggle to put food on the table and gas in the tank.
You should have been around in the 1950s, 60s & 70s if you think this is bad. Only the wealthy could even afford a new car. My folks bought one new car in 1959. It got repossessed when my dad lost his job and could not make 2 payments. I think maybe you are a bit spoiled as are the older UAW workers. I do not know of any other business in the USA that pays workers when they have no work for them. Those UAW contracts as far as I know are the only ones. Most jobs if you had a good Union contract would pay you 6 weeks severance pay after many years with the company
I know what it is like to go without meals. No food stamps or free cheese. We had a couple months in 1953 that it was oreo cookies that got busted on the line and canned tomatoes. We were lucky when we could afford a 10 cent loaf of bread. My dad could not afford gas for our car and someone in the church loaned him an old Cushman motor scooter that he road in the rain in Portland clear across town to Nabisco.
Today there are places everywhere handing out free food. Food stamps are more prevalent than money in many stores. Bums on the street knock down $150 day to feed their drug habit. Yes I blame the government. For giving people the idea they could eat without working for it.
Uh, for all that I think that your thinking borders this side of insanity, I musy agree that the Fiat deal has to rank as a management blunder of tsunami proportions...
The Trade Act referred to earlier was known as the Trade Readjustment Act, as most laid off UAW folks in the 80s just called it TRA...I had to admire those who saw the changes coming and the handwriting on the wall and accepted the (taxpayer) money for job retraining...but for those who just whined and cried that "all I can do is right front wheels", and there were many (people, not right front wheels) they needed to grow up...
in my case it was my second Boeing layoff (the first one occurred in Mar.of 1982)and I just figured that this company is nuts. Tired of all the layoff talk and stress associated with it. I was ready to retrain and I thought I could be a good Respiratory Therapist, too.
In the early spring of 2003 the bird flu or Asian flu crisis was hot and heavy and a large amount of fear was starting to spread as people weren't sure if this respiratory sickness was going to be contained or not.
I could've stayed on Boeing's recall/rehire list but just had had enough by May of 2003. So it worked out but let me tell you it was a load of work just keeping up with the funding paper trail and red tape. It was a headache and a half but I knew that America needed more Respiratory Therapists and I knew that I could be one one day.
If I were in the UAW and getting canned from my job I'd look in to The Trade Act and pick a skill that is accredited and on the Trade Act funded list and go for it. Things are not through getting worse for the domestic manufacturers.
The Trade act is probably not applicable to those that take early retirement packages from the Big 3. They are just trying to weed out the old dudes and dudettes. Makes good sense to me. Get young blood in there. For those that take the buy out and are too young to retire. Better get some classes in a field that is needed. Medical field is still wide open with all the baby boomers getting old and needing medical attention.
You should have been around in the 1950s, 60s & 70s if you think this is bad. Only the wealthy could even afford a new car. My folks bought one new car in 1959. It got repossessed when my dad lost his job and could not make 2 payments. I think maybe you are a bit spoiled as are the older UAW workers. I do not know of any other business in the USA that pays workers when they have no work for them. Those UAW contracts as far as I know are the only ones. Most jobs if you had a good Union contract would pay you 6 weeks severance pay after many years with the company
No kidding Gagrice, I think Rocky believes the whole country had it as good as UAW employees in Michigan back in the so called "good times" of the 50's & 60's. Unfortunatly, the big 3 couldn't employ the whole country so most US workers didn't have it nearly as well.
My Grandpa was severly injured in WW2 and was handicapped his whole life. He didn't have the physical capabilities to work and in a factory and most of his young working life while raising a family he had to work 2 jobs to even come close to making ends meet. He had to much pride to just stay at home and take 100% disability through the VA, not to mention back then the benefits were not very good anyway. This on top of the discrimination he had to endure, along with minorities. When I talk to my dad and my FIL about their childhood, they generally talk about how they didn't have much and how hard it was to get by.
Yesterday at work I spent the day with a 26 year old Network Engineer I work with. He has a stay at home wife with 2 kids and a house. He didn't go to college, he trained himself along with getting on the job training within various IT departments at different companies. He bought his first house at 19yrs/old. My point is you have to have marketable skills to be successful whether you get it on the job, at a university or a vocational school. I don't understand why some don't understand this concept.
Most of the computer engineers/technitions I work with didn't start out in this field. They were working for other companies in different fields where they either were laid off or didn't like the work they were doing. So instead of staying in a career they hated, or being bitter about not being able to find a job after getting canned. They got training in a different field to do something different to be successful at.
This is what can keep us competitive in the world. Having skilled and flexible workers go to where the opportunities are. Subsidizing workers at wages that are not competitive is not sustainable unless the company can find other ways to be efficient enough to make a profit while being competitive at the same time.
"Kip, the 1/3 is incorrect. It really doesn't matter because up until a year and half-two years ago GM, didn't hire anybody since 99".
Rocky, I'm going by the below quote from the link. Says the "ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue". And we know how those types have all the latest scoop!
>>"A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs."
Of course I'm not as close to the situation as you are, but I can definitely "feel" for anyone that faithfully goes to work every day, gets use to a given wage, and suddenly is faced with being laid off, no matter what the wage was.
Problem is that the economy can't afford to pay everyone a "GOOD" wage for every job. That guy hanging off the back of a garbage truck, in rain and snow, or even in good weather, wants to earn a "GOOD" wage, he certainly works harder than the postman on the same route, but the facts are that the "JOB" simply doesn't pay as well in most areas. If we paid everyone the same, we would be living in a Socialistic society that would soon collapse.
Japanese offerings are as expensive or more expensive as the Big 3 offerings. I can't rationalize how raising tariffs on the imports to price them out of range would benefit anyone other than the FAT CATS at the Big 3, and encourage business as usual.
I understand that you are real close to the situation, and some of this will possibly seem hurtful to you. I don't mean to do so, but I do feel strongly about the following . So please forgive my bluntness or ignorance, as the case may be. I'm drawing my conclusions from friends that work(ed) at GM and Ford as well as my being inside those facilities, and other types of businesses, performing my job.
Upper management tends to build dynasties. The more people reporting to them, the more they seem to be worth. With one company, I'm very close to, a regional manager had a staff of near 400 people. There were 4 of those regional managers in the states. I don't know about over seas. When down sizing took place, that Regional manager had only about 10 people left. He had to actually start earning his ridiculous salary. As it turned out, the job was more than he could handled and he was replaced in less than a year. The replacement did a wonderful job and the region started showing a profit again. Problem was that the 400 staff members were now out of a job.
The Big 3 are no different. Entirely too many "Chiefs" doing meaningless jobs but drawing "GOOD" pay. Now the hurtful part. I'm not asking for answers. Just expressing thoughts and questions in my own mind. Too many Indians drawing too much pay. How much is it really "WORTH" to a company for a guy to walk in of the street and start hanging bumpers or installing wheels? How much skill does that require? Does it require more skill than a short order cook that is having several waitresses yelling out orders for all kinds of different requirements and he still manages to get them right? Does it require more skill than the kid working at a tire store, changing, repairing, installing and balancing tires all day for minimum wage? Or the lady trying to pick up and/or deliver a bunch of noisy and misbehaving school kids with her bus?
Of course! We all want to earn as much as possible. But we have to understand that companies can only stand a certain amount of expense and still be competitive. Jobs with entry level skills need to be paid accordingly. Pay increases and promotions need to be due to Merit, and not because some contract says everybody gets a raise or doesn't. Promotions should be because a guy earned it, not simply because it is his turn. If a guy screws up repeatedly, he should be put on probation. If he doesn't get his act together, he should be terminated without fear of reprisal from the union. The achievers should get rewarded. The under achievers should not!
People already hired and "Promised" a certain pay should receive that pay. Although it may require some additional education and initiative on their parts, offered at company expense. I say that because they have and were promised a life style and should be able to maintain that lifestyle. But the new hires should be payed according to the skill level of the job. Unions need to get the hell out of the wages business. Deal with working conditions and education for their members. Most companies will reward the achievers to keep them from leaving.
Two lines of thought here. 1. Give a man a fish and he will be hungry the next day. Teach him to fish and he can feed himself the rest of his life.
2. Build him a fire and he will be warm for the night. Set him on fire and he will be warm the rest of his short life.
Union greed has been not to teach, but to get that instant gratification which is leading to destruction. Same with the upper management "Empire" builders.
We need to applaud the importers that are building factories here. They are putting Americans back to work, producing good products. Their very presence have forced the Big 3 to get serious about their positions. They (Big 3) are definitely building better cars than a few years ago. I believe they can turn around with proper mind set. I would love to get back into Detroit Iron next trade!
We can't turn a ship around unless we change the position of the rudder!
>With one company, I'm very close to, a regional manager had a staff of near 400 people
With the 400 regional top level workers, how many real workers on the assembly line? What did they earn?
> But the new hires should be payed paid according to the skill level of the job. Unions need to get the hell out of the wages business. Deal with working conditions and education for their members.
If I translate correctly, either other workers shouldn't be paid more than some workers doing different or lesser jobs OR you are in a position where you own a company and don't want to pay workers what they should receive.
>Deal with working conditions and education for their members. Most companies will reward the achievers to keep them from leaving.
...will reward if they are relatives, friends, or suck-noses...?
Frankly I thought your post was going to be reasonable at first. However, like many, your biases and media perceptions have affected reality. Perhaps Hillary will be able to fool enough people. If it weren't for unions in the past, most people in jobs making good wages to be middle class wouldn't be making those wages. The downturn of unions, after decades of listening to anti union rhetoric, has changed the workplace so much, we now begin to actually see and hear the overt abuses of employees by employers and the government's lack of interest in effectively enforcing rules about abuses. I've heard and seen many examples including those of falsification of employment information and promises of dates when pay would start. The people keep working but never receive a paycheck or don't receive the amount they should. People are being tricked into working under completely different circumstances than they were told when employed.
Perhaps you are in a position where that doesn't interest you; you just consider it a hurdle in the workplace for the lowly worker to overcome.
>Union greed has been not to teach,
It's the employer's place to train the workers for their specific workplace needs, not the union's job necessarily. That shows a viewpoint.
Remember not everyone can survive on McDonalds' wages. And that's what we're working toward.
When Henry worked with the unions, how many midlevel managers do you think he had relative to the number of people working on the line? How many do you think are inplace today at the big 3 or 2 whichever you please?
*********** *********** *********** I'm afraid the decades of Rush sitting with his drugged billions talking about unions and schrewels and those awful unions has had an effect. The rebound may give us a president we won't want.
I don't disagree with either of the previous posts. I think both have valid points. Having retired after 45+ years as a Union employee I would consider myself Pro-Union. Did I like all that went on in the Unions I was a member of? No. I have watched the Union position weaken over the last 30 years.I have also watched the small business man being crushed. It was not the big Corporations at fault. It is an Over bloated system of government both at the state and federal levels. While it is true that big businesses are run like Monarchies with endless levels of worthless management. The small company I worked for was a prime example. We had 4 people on shift doing the work. And 27 people in the offices doing the administration. When I started with the company we had 4 people doing the work and 3 people doing the administration. So I can believe that laying off 390 people and having 10 do the job is quite within reason. The biggest obstacle to business today is the government. I have a friend with a bug control business. He has 2 people working for him. His workman's Comp for the two employees is $400 per month each. He considers that cheap compared to many businesses. That is $2.22 per hour. They live in So CA and he pays them about $30k per year or $14 per hour. I know it costs more to live here than Michigan. So the new hires in the UAW are ahead of the national curve in my opinion. It is a cycle. Will the days of big Union wages ever return? I doubt it. Not with a government that chases off more businesses than it attracts.
We have the government in an election year talking about how the FAA in the important New York (they vote) area needs to be upgraded. I wonder how the PATCO strike and Reagan booting of the union workers has impacted the FAA? Do you think the gov'ment has put the money saved into extra quality technology to improve flight control? Duh, no. But we busted that union; no more having people tell us how much they are worth in pay!
I consider myself prounion within reason. Some unions went crooked because of government's lack of control of the mafia: can you say Kennedy? Marilyn Monroe? etc.
I notice the Menard's ad has appliances marked which are manufactured in the US. That would affect my purchase choice. It may not be too long before we pick up a new electric range, e.g. I'll buy US.
"With the 400 regional top level workers, how many real workers on the assembly line? What did they earn?"
I don't know how many assembly plants they had world wide or how many employees per plant or how many salesmen in the region or service personal. I don't know or care how much money any of them made. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the statement.
The man had 400 staff, it was reduced to 10, he was eventually replaced, and the business improved drastically. I would expect that the other 3 USA regional managers had the same experiences. Their empires were brought down.
"If I translate correctly, either other workers shouldn't be paid more than some workers doing different or lesser jobs OR you are in a position where you own a company and don't want to pay workers what they should receive".
I don't have a clue what you are saying before the "OR"! Try again.
If you actually read my post(s) you will know that I worked for a company that enabled me to service equipment in lots of places. I carried a tool bag. I saw what was going on. Had drinks after work with executives and workers alike.
"...will reward if they are relatives, friends, or suck-noses...? "
Uh....Yeah right!
"Perhaps you are in a position where that doesn't interest you; you just consider it a hurdle in the work place for the lowly worker to overcome."
Sorry dude, I carried a tool bag for 30 years. I was a worker ! Shied away from becoming a manager. I preferred to be moving around and dealing with the customers and machines. However I worked hard and gave the Company 100% for my pay. It rewarded me with raises and promotions. It didn't reward the slackers. Most companies worth a crap will bend over backwards to keep "Good" employees. Why would they want to loose a good worker and take a chance on hiring a slacker. However those employees that thought doing a good job were, as you put it, "suck-noses". They went away. :sick:
"Remember not everyone can survive on McDonalds' wages. And that's what we're working toward." "....If it weren't for unions in the past, most people in jobs making good wages to be middle class wouldn't be making those wages."
I agree on both points. Do you think the McDonald employees should earn middle class wages. Should they be payed middle class wages for flippin burgers? Throw a union in the mix and you and I can pay $15 for a Big Mac. While we are at it, lets raise the salaries of everybody involved in growing the food, harvesting the food, processing it, and delivering it to McDonalds. Lets raise them to middle class levels and you can pay $25 for that burger.
Let's go a little farther and Unionize all people involved in building a house. A friend contracted to build an 800 sq foot HUD house for the city of Atlanta. He gave them a price using his subs that have been doing work for him for years. They told him he had to use union workers all the way. The price went up 2 times his original quote. To put that in real world terms. A house that might sell today for $200K would jump to $400k with your union. Is that what you want?
Promote your union mentality and you will find that you are no longer middle class. You are making the same as the lowest paying jobs with their unions. .
My belief is that todays Unions should deal with work place conditions and encouraging the employers through negotiation to make education available to the employees. Such as helping or paying for trade schools and/or college tuition, Health benefits, retirement of some type, 401Ks and so forth
A house that might sell today for $200K would jump to $400k with your union. Is that what you want?
That, along with the $25 burger is fine with me, PROVIDED that my wage is commensurate with those prices. You see, it sounds as if you look at the price ALONE ($400k house and $25 burger) and go :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
Well, that's what I would expect the reaction to be from someone who passed away in 1960 if they were resurrected today, and after paying 15 CENTS for a burger when they died, saw the same burger for $1.50 now.
Here is a list of prices from 50 years ago:
House: $30,000 Average income: $4,650 Ford car: $1967-$3929 Milk: $1.01 Gas: $.24 Bread $.19 Postage stamp: $.04 Chef Boy-Ar-Dee spaghetti, 15 1/2 .oz can.: $ .19 Corned Beef: $.59 lb.
Swiss Steak: $.75 lb. Libby Tomato Juice, 5 (46 .oz) cans: $1.00 Kraft Carmels, 1 lb pkg: $.37 Milk: $.42 half gal. Uncle Ben’s Rice, 14 oz box - $.19 Sunkist Oranges, 5 lbs.: $.49 Cantaloupe: $.05 lb. Celery: $.04 lb. Tuition at Harvard: $1,250 yr. Nathan's Hot Dog: $.25 Roundtrip airfare London to New York: $453
Now, some things seem to be commensurate with today's prices in that you'd probably spend $2 at a diner for a Hot dog, $300k for a good house, 41 cts. for a stamp (prices are a multple of 10). But other things, like a gallon of milk (from the Dairy farmers perspective) only up 4x's??? $46,000 a year is like $23 in change/hr. Harvard tuition is up 35 TIMES!!! How out of whack is that????
I don't know how many assembly plants they had world wide or how many employees per plant or how many salesmen in the region or service personal. I don't know or care how much money any of them made. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the statement.
The man had 400 staff, it was reduced to 10, he was eventually replaced, and the business improved drastically. I would expect that the other 3 USA regional managers had the same experiences. Their empires were brought down.
With all do respect Kip, I think it does have a lot to do with the situation. If management would of had 4 workers producing something for 3 admin people pushing paper the company you spoke about would of been much further ahead. As you said 10 people were able to do the job that 400 previously did. I feel bad for the other 390 folks that lost their job but this is what happens when the chief has lots of indians and that is exactly the situation at GM. If my memory is correct GM, at one time had 7 admin. people for every UAW worker. :surprise: I think Ford, is like 4 to 1 now. I'm not sure exactly where all of them are at with all the changes and buy-outs. :sick:
I don't have a clue what you are saying before the "OR"! Try again.
He said he thought you believed that some workers should be paid more than others. (OR) you are in a position where you own a company and don't want to pay workers what they should receive.
If you actually read my post(s) you will know that I worked for a company that enabled me to service equipment in lots of places. I carried a tool bag. I saw what was going on. Had drinks after work with executives and workers alike.
If you were having drinks with executives I'm sure because of their titles, power, you were inclined to believe them over the workers because you wouldn't dare bite against the hand that feeds you.
Uh....Yeah right!
What was un true with imidazol97's statement ? :confuse:
Sorry dude, I carried a tool bag for 30 years. I was a worker ! Shied away from becoming a manager. I preferred to be moving around and dealing with the customers and machines. However I worked hard and gave the Company 100% for my pay. It rewarded me with raises and promotions. It didn't reward the slackers. Most companies worth a crap will bend over backwards to keep "Good" employees. Why would they want to loose a good worker and take a chance on hiring a slacker. However those employees that thought doing a good job were, as you put it, "suck-noses". They went away.
Being a contract employee doing service work for a company and being an employee of that company is a lot diferent !!! I've done that line of work before and what I thought was a great company turned out the turn over ratio was quite high. I and imidazol97, obviously do not know to many "good company's" like those you describe. In capitalism, the bottom line is the buck and if you can be replaced by a maggot for a less the suits are going to hand you a pink slip !!!
I agree on both points. Do you think the McDonald employees should earn middle class wages. Should they be payed middle class wages for flippin burgers?
McDonalds, is the largest fast food chain in the world. I do think they could do a much better job in compensation for their employees. At one time here in the 90's McDonalds, was paying $9.00 an hour for new employees. Now those jobs are back at minimum wage. I worked at McDonalds and made minumum wage in 1997 while tryingto go to college. I had zero benefits, and they wouldn't even help pay for my tuition. So yes they might not be able to pay a middle class income but as I said they could do a lot better than they do.
Throw a union in the mix and you and I can pay $15 for a Big Mac.
So here ya go off the deep-end and is why I can't take you seriously. :sick:
While we are at it, lets raise the salaries of everybody involved in growing the food, harvesting the food, processing it, and delivering it to McDonalds. Lets raise them to middle class levels and you can pay $25 for that burger.
As far as the food growing part of it goes I've seen studies that if american's paid an extra $30 dollars a year for their fruits and vegetables farm workers could be paid about $15-18 dollars an hour thus eliminating the illegal alien issue.
Comments
-Rocky
The Harbour studies that I've seen rate plant productivity.
rockylee: Well if the Big 3, would of been caught doing this their would of been a out cry for law suits because it was after all against the law.
If it's against the law for the Big Three, it is against the law for the Japanese, too.
There are safety defects that must be corrected with a recall, as ordered by NHTSA. If NHTSA determines that a safety defect (i.e, one that makes the vehicle unsafe to operate) exists, the company that made the vehicle must order a recall, which means that the company MUST directly notify customers to bring their vehicles into a dealer to have the repair made, free of charge. If the repair has already been made, the company must reimburse the customer.
Given that EVERY company, including Toyota, has issued official recalls after being ordered to do so by NHTSA, it's obvious that no one company is getting a "pass" on this subject.
If a company is repairing NON-SAFETY defects (for example, the radio display goes dim, or the power door locks quit working, or the transmission fails) out of warranty, that is not against the law. Any company can do this. If a company chooses not to, then it must live with the consequences.
rockylee: The Big 3 went through enough law suits in the past to not even dare cover up defects and the biased media outlets were getting multi-million dollar advertising campaigns from toyota, and went along with the "sweetest perfection" image.
If any company covers up safety-related defects, it will be the subject of lawsuits and, ultimately, a recall ordered by NHTSA.
Perhaps you are talking about "secret warranties," where companies only repair widespread defects if the customer screams loud enough. GM has done this recently - when the intake manifold gasket on my co-worker's 2000 Impala failed, the dealer was ready to charge her the full price of repair. After I found the TSB on the web, and gave it to her, the dealer suddenly remembered that GM had a program to help customers with this repair, and the cost was slashed dramatically. Sorry, but that practice isn't dead among the Big Three. The above scenario happened in 2004, which isn't that long ago.
Often the above practice results in a class action suit, which, in turn, results in the automaker being forced to extend warranties. But this happened to Honda with its defective automatic transmissions in several vehicles, so it's not as though attorneys are ignoring problems with Japanese cars. Plaintiff's attorneys love a juicy target, and the money from Honda or Toyota is just as green as the money from GM or Ford.
As for Toyota advertising buying silence from critics - odd, given that GM spends lots of money on advertising, too.
rockylee: Oh well times are changing !!!! The Big 3, especially GM, are turning around !!!! We are making some of the best products on the market today. Some of the presidential candidates on both sides promise to fix Michigan, and the automobile industry. We will see if they can keep their word.
And, in one paragraph, we have a perfect example of the mentality that has been slowly decimating the Big Three and the UAW.
It's always the responsibility of someone else to fix the domestic auto industry's problems - customers, Consumer Reports, foreign automakers, and, now presidential candidates.
There are two parties that can fix the GM, Ford and Chrysler, and I don't mean Democrats and Republicans - the management of those companies, and the UAW. They need to work together, and stop the finger-pointing, and do what it takes to improve the product.
The UAW and GM, Ford, Chrysler, can only do so much. We are the only 1st world country that has no protectionist clauses for our business and workers. :mad:
Government responsibility's !!!!!
#1 Fix the Currency Manipulation
#2 Set Tariffs on all imports because they do it to us !!!!
#3 Set Trade Barriers similar to the way Japan, does it to us !!!
-Rocky
Vehicles other than railway or tramway rolling-stock, and parts and accessories thereof
Last I checked, US is also a member of WTO.
As for currency manipulation, what are you suggesting? making one Japanese Yen equals one US dollar?
2. Tariffs - there are two problems here. One, the adoption of tariffs by the U.S. would encourage retaliation from other countries against U.S. products. This would hurt those companies that export products. (If you doubt that, research what the Hawley-Smoot tariff of 1930 did to turn what should have been a recession into the Great Depression.)
Again, you need to think beyond Michigan.
Two, the Big Three are getting beaten by companies building products right here in the U.S., so tariffs on imports would not provide any real long-term relief. It would only encourage Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai to shift even more production to the U.S.
3. Trade barriers similar to those set by Japan - there are three problems here. The first I've mentioned above - the main Japanese companies already build a large percentage of their products here, so that wouldn't work. If you are talking about discouraging foreign investment in U.S.-based facilities, that is nothing more than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We benefit from when companies build plants here. Maybe Michigan, the UAW and the Big Three don't benefit, but the country is much larger than those parties, and any legislator worth his or her salt is going to look at the much larger picture.
Second, foreign companies can sell vehicles in Japan - the Germans are quite successful in this regard, because of the status and prestige enjoyed by BWM, Mercedes and Porsche among the Japanese elite. If the Big Three produced more vehicles that actually appealed to Japanese customers, they would have better luck selling to them.
Third, the Japanese economy has not been too healthy for years, so a rational observer would conclude that any barriers to entry have hurt, rather than helped, them in the long run.
87.03 Motor cars and other motor vehicles principally designed for the transport of persons (other than those of heading 87.02), including station wagons and racing cars
Does not say it's free !!!!
Am I the only one who doesn't see the built in trade barriers on motorcycles, etc ? :confuse:
As John Edwards, Ron Paul, Duncan Hunter, have said we need to pull out of the WTO if we can't come to an agreement. They need us alot more than we need them !!!! :mad:
As for currency manipulation, what are you suggesting? making one Japanese Yen equals one US dollar?
Tariff the Japanese, products to make up for the manipulation is one idea proposed by Hunter, Paul, Edwards.
-Rocky
Continue to lose market share ??? Last time I checked GM, is doing mighty fine against Toyota. They sell a helluva alot more cars than toyota here in the U.S. and are still #1 worldwide so please don't give me any of your crap because like marsha7, you will be wearing depends adult diapers. :P Just think what a level playing field would do ??? You would see Ford, rebound as they are no longer under cut by the Japanese !!!
2. Tariffs - there are two problems here. One, the adoption of tariffs by the U.S. would encourage retaliation from other countries against U.S. products. This would hurt those companies that export products. (If you doubt that, research what the Hawley-Smoot tariff of 1930 did to turn what should have been a recession into the Great Depression.)
Obviously you do not understand economics and can't comprehend (like others I know
Again, you need to think beyond Michigan.
Oh I have and I can see all these sub-prime mortgages destroying the economy's of more than michigan. imidazol97, said it's not just a one state recession. He lives in Ohio, and they are facing similar conditions.
Two, the Big Three are getting beaten by companies building products right here in the U.S., so tariffs on imports would not provide any real long-term relief. It would only encourage Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai to shift even more production to the U.S.
Toyota, still imports 51% of their products into the U.S.
Honda, imports 49% into the U.S. and Toyota, is expected to manufactor their future small cars outside the U.S.
3. Trade barriers similar to those set by Japan - there are three problems here. The first I've mentioned above - the main Japanese companies already build a large percentage of their products here, so that wouldn't work. If you are talking about discouraging foreign investment in U.S.-based facilities, that is nothing more than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We benefit from when companies build plants here. Maybe Michigan, the UAW and the Big Three don't benefit, but the country is much larger than those parties, and any legislator worth his or her salt is going to look at the much larger picture.
OMG, you really have not looked at the numbers have you ??? :confuse: For every three big 3 jobs lost only one transplant job replaced it and granted those jobs that replaced it made half the money in terms of pay and benefits. Hyundai, only pays $13 or $14 an hour, offers no pension or retiree healthcare benefits meaning those folks are headed to medicare and living off of your nickle.
Second, foreign companies can sell vehicles in Japan - the Germans are quite successful in this regard, because of the status and prestige enjoyed by BWM, Mercedes and Porsche among the Japanese elite. If the Big Three produced more vehicles that actually appealed to Japanese customers, they would have better luck selling to them.
Yes, the Germans are able to sell their high dollar vehicles to the wealthy in Japan. That isn't GM's intended market. The bottom line it's not a equal playing field and when I point this out and "prove it" some of you can swallow facts and try to spinit saying they wouldn't buy our stuff so it doesn't matter. That's a flat-out poor excuse !!! :mad:
Third, the Japanese economy has not been too healthy for years, so a rational observer would conclude that any barriers to entry have hurt, rather than helped, them in the long run.
Well they are having to compete with China and India for our business. We are headed down the same path. It's not like Sony TV's are made in Japan, any more and since they became a pseudo-capitalist society their businesses off-shored and they now have a "surf n' elite" society. I know that's silverfox5's and marsha7's golden eutopia but it's not mine and many others. Man you guys both sound alot like brightness04 and socala4 :surprise:
-Rocky
rocky, you just gotta grow up...you cannot continue to carry on with this childish attitude that ANY politician will bring back jobs to Michigan...using tax policy and other items, they may assist in bringing business to this country (or stop forcing our companies to leave because of excessive regulation or taxes), but NO ONE, not Mitt Romney or any Democrat, will be able to put business in Michigan, and you simply cannot continue to live in the dream world of the 50s and 60s where the unions wrote their own ticket...
To my understanding, I think Forbes, Fortune or Money Magazine rated Michigan as a poor state for business...unions (both the entitlement mentality and higher wage structure and restrictove work rules), higher business taxes, excessive work comp costs, more useless regulation than other states, and the physical climate of snow and cold weather...why would anyone set up a major business there when the South has NONE of those negatives???
Michigan can claim an "experienced work force"...considering that it is unionized with higher costs, and new workers can be easily trained for auto work, the experienced work force is more of a negative than a positive...
Your governor and legislature can lower taxes and the work comp problem, but don't worry, as they won't...
Anyone in high school had better not count on employment in the auto industry, they should read the handwriting and train for something else...
What are ANY reasons that a company would set up shop in Michigan as compared to the South???
Stop looking to the politicians, look in yourself and find something outside of the Big 3 for employment...any advisor that would counsel someone to seek work in the North in the Big 3 should have their certification revoked...
1997
GM: 4,703,549
Toyota: 1,230,112
2007
GM: 3,866,620
Toyota: 2,620,825
(Alot of GM Trucks/SUVs) a year and that total has dropped significantly downward to 16 million a year with $3-4 dollar gas and Toyota, has always focuses itself on the car market but things are changing and GM & Ford, that I know of is going to challenge them. God only knows what Chrysler, is going to do ??? :surprise:
-Rocky
Changes may save Big 3 from '08 woes
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080116/OPINION03/801160373/1- 148/AUTO01
-Rocky
A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs.
If we were to go into a great depression those mediocre contracts would be voided and I would be out of a job selling cars because nobody would buy any.
-Rocky
I sure do not want to see another one. The worst recession I have survived was 1977-1980. Double digit inflation and 20% interest. The only folks getting rich were the ones with money in Treasury bills.
are up to $27 an hr. and get killer bonuses. Last year they got $10K or an equivalent of $3 an hour."
Hey Rocky, guess what? Apparently somebody is getting the picture. According to the link you supplied in an above post: "A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs."
So according to you the new contract pays new hired workers $14 per hour. And according to the link, supplied by you, that is 1/3 what they were/are paying traditional workers. They are paying a a person, right off the street, under the new contracts, which are a third of what they were, $14 an hour to install parts. So what were they making before the new contracts?? :confuse:
"Not here they don't !!! I have relatives that are nurses or will be nurses. My cousin Michael, last I knew makes $35 bucks an hour."
Pay scales will vary some according to cost of living in different locations. Here in Ga., the top pay for BSRN with 4 years of college, and working the day shift is more like $32 hourly. Or course if they go into management positions or work different shifts they will make more. However starting pay is more in the $15 -$17 hourly. Depending on the hospital etc... It takes several years and lots of continued education to reach that $32+/- figure. And we are talking about dealing with life and death vs installing a bumper. Something is wrong with that picture.
"Well explain to me how union labor in japan, does it ???? They (JAW) make
a lot more than the UAW, workers plus get pension benefits, and gobs of paid time off"
I don't know how JAW works, I don't live in Japan. My understanding is that Japan has been a victim of runaway inflation for several years. Salaries and wages are ridiculously high in all sectors. Are you saying that UAW workers don't get pension bennefits, medical, and paid time off?
"I guess you missed the contract talks ??? A new UAW worker at GM, makes $14 an hour. Last time I knew Toyota, was paying $19 to start and once they complete their training they are making $22 an hour. After about 3 or 4 years they
are up to $27 an hr. and get killer bonuses. Last year they got $10K or an equivalent of $3 an hour."
I will have to take your word for that. However keep in mind that bonuses are generally in line with profit sharing. Answer this for me: Under the old contracts, how much was/is an UAW worker making after say 5-8 years?
"So you are saying that Ford, should fix it out of warranty ??? If Honda, fixes them out of warranty then why not advertise it that customers have a lifetime warranty."
Ford would go out of business fixing things out of warranty, because they have such an abundance of things that go wrong. Honda, on the other hand does not have that much problem. Here is an example: The Honda Oddessy had problems with some of the transmissions. Seems the years were 1999-2001. The reason for the 2-3 year span is because the failures were not showing up until 50K-60K miles. Not only did Honda replace the transmissions, they also put a 100K warranty on all the affected year models. Ford simply told my mom, You are out of warranty, you owe us $3500, TWICE! Same with a friend with his 200_ F150 at around 50K miles.
FWIW: Just before I retired from IBM I was talking with a friend that worked at GM in Doraville. I was taking care of Millions of dollars of equipment and dealing with top executives of Coca Cola, and several Large law firms. He was installing dash boards and making about 20% more than me. And I was doing very well!
My son works for a major Japanese vehicle builder, and has tons of responsibility as a trouble shooter among other things. They have sent him all over the States and to several foreign countries. According to a close friend that worked in upper management at Ford Hapeville, a person at Ford with the same responsibilities as my son would be earning just about double my son's wage. And my son makes a good living !
Keep in mind the Hapeville and the Doraville plants are now history. Those over paid folks are looking for work. Good show UAW. You bullied them into not existence. Good show top executives, you raised your salaries into non existence. :sick:
Tuesday my son traded his GT Mustang for a new Honda Ridgeline. No he doesn't work for Honda. He has had an F150, a Late 90s T-Bird, a Tacoma 4wd that he put near 200K on, and the 2001 Mustang. I asked why he didn't get an F150. "Dad, Fords just don't hold up for me. I'll stick with Rice Burners"!
And yes GM is still #1 world wide. But, not just with the stuff they make here. They have a lot of interest in other brands such as Opel, Saab, and bits and pieces of others. But that #1 position is shrinking fast. In spite of the fact that they had a long head start.
Hopefully the powers will see the light and trade excessive salaries/wages for good quality parts that will enable the big 3 to sell a quality product at a competitive price.
Kip
The Big Three continue to lose market share. GM has SLOWED its decline, but the last time I checked, it was still losing market share in the American market. Ford has LOST 10 points of market share in the U.S. over the last decade! Chrysler is just about out of the passenger car business if you subtract rental car sales from the total sales of its cars. The Ram pickup, Jeep Wrangler and minivans are keeping it afloat.
GM is doing well in other markets, particularly the Chinese market. In fact, the profits generated in China are helping to keep the corporation afloat, as GM continues to lose money in North America.
Perhaps the U.S. should slap tariffs on Chinese goods, and the Chinese government can retaliate by kicking GM out of China and nationalizing its factories. That would be great for GM, now wouldn't it?
I'm not happy about the state of the Big Three, but papering over their problems does no one any good, and Mitt Romney (or whoever wins the election) isn't going to save them.
The only reason we are getting such good products as the Fusion/Milan, Taurus/Taurus X, Mustang, CTS, Acadia/Outlook/Enclave and Malibu is because the Big Three have been getting whipped, and the UAW and management now realize it, and are (finally) getting their act together. They have to keep improving quality, weeding out slow sellers, and streamlining their dealer networks.
rockylee: Obviously you do not understand economics and can't comprehend (like others I know ) their is a economic problem with a trade deficit. Our trade deficit with China is $150 billion and rising.
The companies whipping the domestics are based in Japan and Korea, not China, so what does this have to do with the plight of the Big Three? There are no Chinese-made vehicles available for sale in the United States.
rockylee: We have a trade deficit with almost every country because they are allowed to "dump" on our market for free while they protect theirs. Wonder why your money is becoming worthless and inflation is on the rise ???
Rocky, our money is "worthless" because organizations such as the UAW have been arguing for a "cheaper" dollar.
Why? It makes American-made goods cheaper to export!
You are getting what you say that want when the dollar declines in value relative to other currencies!
rockylee: Oh I have and I can see all these sub-prime mortgages destroying the economy's of more than michigan. imidazol97, said it's not just a one state recession. He lives in Ohio, and they are facing similar conditions.
Okay, then you need to think beyond the Industrial Midwest.
rockylee: Toyota, still imports 51% of their products into the U.S.
Honda, imports 49% into the U.S. and Toyota, is expected to manufactor their future small cars outside the U.S. I welcome them coming here. Atleast they wouldn't be getting the manipulation advantage but wouldstill be able to ship the profits back to Japan.
The trend for the Japanese over the past decade has been to design, engineer and build here an increasing percentage of the vehicles that they sell here. This trend will continue over the long-term. It wasn't too long ago that well over 90 percent of Hondas and Toyotas sold here were imported from Japan.
rockylee: OMG, you really have not looked at the numbers have you ??? For every three big 3 jobs lost only one transplant job replaced it and granted those jobs that replaced it made half the money in terms of pay and benefits.
If every three Big Three jobs lost have been replaced by one transplant job, and total automobile production in the U.S. is the same as it was in 1978, the logical conclusion is that the Big Three were wildly overstaffed, which in turn was a big part of their problems.
rockylee: Well they are having to compete with China and India for our business. We are headed down the same path. It's not like Sony TV's are made in Japan, any more and since they became a pseudo-capitalist society their businesses off-shored and they now have a "surf n' elite" society.
Rocky, the Japanese economy has been in the dumps since the early 1990s, long before China and India became major competitive challengers.
Rocky, nothing lasts forever. The Big Three and the UAW had a wonderful ride from 1945-1980. Unfortunately, decades of success breed laziness, and both management and labor got lazy, thinking that they were owed some sort of allegiance from customers. Well, a large percentage of car buyers had other ideas, and in a free-market society, the customer is ultimately the final arbiter of which companies live and which companies die. No presidential candidate is going to put forth a proposal to restrict customers' ability to buy Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, VWs, Hyundais with tariffs or anything else, because such a candidate would lose the election.
Quote: "rockylee: OMG, you really have not looked at the numbers have you ??? For every three big 3 jobs lost only one transplant job replaced it and granted those jobs that replaced it made half the money in terms of pay and benefits.
If every three Big Three jobs lost have been replaced by one transplant job, and total automobile production in the U.S. is the same as it was in 1978, the logical conclusion is that the Big Three were wildly overstaffed, which in turn was a big part of their problems.
rockylee: Well they are having to compete with China and India for our business. We are headed down the same path. It's not like Sony TV's are made in Japan, any more and since they became a pseudo-capitalist society their businesses off-shored and they now have a "surf n' elite" society.
Rocky, the Japanese economy has been in the dumps since the early 1990s, long before China and India became major competitive challengers"...unquote
The falsehoods from his immaturity and lack of knowledge are growing larger by the day...he can only see the simple absolute that 3 union jobs were lost, as though they exist by divine right, but the fact that it only took one transplant job to replace it and maintain the same production means that he fails to comprehend the money wasting concept of UNION FEATHERBEDDING, meaning that they forced the automakers to hire thousands to do the job that only required hundreds...so, when those (fake) "jobs" are eliminated, they really did not destroy any jobs, they simply dumped unneeded overhead that no properly run business would have incurred from the beginning...if you understand "divine right", then you will understand that rocky cannot understand how so many workers cannot be needed, or that they "deserve" their jobs, simply because they are ordained by a higher power...well, in this case, the higher power is the marketplace, not the entitly we worship on Sunday (or whatever your day is)...
The simple fact is that if the carmakers were properly run, they never would have dumped hundreds of thousands of workers over the years because they never would have hired them because they simply were not needed...they hired six people to do the work of two, got away with it for a number of years, and created the union welfare entitlement mentality and suffered until they wised uop and dumped the useless workers...now they stand a chance, hopefully, with better products and fewer workers to screw up the process...
As far as the Japanese, their stock market, the Nikkei Dow, was rising like a banshee in the 1980s up to around 40,000, all based on their overinflated real estate (it was once said that Tokyo was worth more than the (State of California)...once they realized that it was all a myth, that all of JAPAN was not worth the value of California, their stock market crashed, in 1990, to about 15,000, about 1/3 of its value (kind of a precursor to our dot com fraud boom)...it stayed there for almost 15 years, and is just recently starting to move up...they reduced their interest rates to zero, and it still did not help...
Once again, the lack of maturity and ignorance of the past disqualifies the young from making comments on something they are simply unaware...
Yes, the Japanese did buy our assets, like Rockefeller Center and Pebble beach golf course...but they sold them back at 10 cents on the dollar, and what were they going to do with them anyway, move them to Okinawa???...
The simple lack of information, from which vehement opinions are formed, is beginning to surprise me...
-Rocky
So according to you the new contract pays new hired workers $14 per hour. And according to the link, supplied by you, that is 1/3 what they were/are paying traditional workers. They are paying a a person, right off the street, under the new contracts, which are a third of what they were, $14 an hour to install parts. So what were they making before the new contracts??
The way it was before was you would startout at $18 and change a hour and after 3 1/2 or 4 years you would beat the top of the pay scale which was $27 and change an hour.... Remember, the new folks get no pension and are making about $14 an hour until they can move into a higher paying job that is directly related to car building. I guess that is a great job today and tells me just how many steps they have taken back.
I will have to take your word for that. However keep in mind that bonuses are generally in line with profit sharing. Answer this for me: Under the old contracts, how much was/is an UAW worker making after say 5-8 years?
$28 an hour for certain jobs but the new folks will have to wait years before they get those. The vets that couldn't afford to retire have all those jobs locked up.
Kip, you seem like a very nice guy but your son buying a Ridgeline :surprise: I would of told him to buy a real truck !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
I think you mean "serf"
1. A person in a condition of servitude, required to render services to a lord, commonly attached to the lord's land and transferred with it from one owner to another.
2. A slave.
You know the people that Edwards, Kennedy & Gore have to keep their mega mansions cleaned. You are right, they are all elitists.
rockylee...I needed to do a similar thing when receiving my pink slip from Boeing. Fortunately Pres.Carter's Administration started up The Trade Act in 1974 to enable laid off workers to retrain. And retrain on the Fed.govt's dime no less. If I were a laid off UAW worker I'd be pestering my manager and/or union rep for information about eligibility for The Trade Act. UAW workers are being laid off due to foreign competition. In my case it was Airbus Industrie.
If these people wait for the storm to pass(the import invasion is too far gone for the Big Three to recover enough to keep all of those jobs now)they're gonna be waiting around watching the grass grow with all of that rain, and their bills are going to mount up in the meantime.
Complacency is an evil feature to let sit in to a corporate attitude. I agree with rocky when he says that GM, Ford and Chrysler management and engineering crews are more to blame for losing market share so badly. Not the average UAW worker. But the UAW and their job banks and high demands for compensation have helped to cripple the domestics in their battle.
Look! I just saw that grass push up a tad...even in this rain. Hey, turn up the stereo man, I love that Guess Who tune 'Rain Dance!'
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
However, it is somewhat confusing to me, because according to the link/article you supplied, the "new hire" pay are are cut by 1/3.
You are saying that under the "NEW" plan, new hires start out at $14 hourly. That would indicate that under the old plan the starting pay was more like $21ish.
But I/we are splitting hairs. My position is simple. Unions in general can be good as far as working conditions and "Fair Pay" for the job done. However the UAW and it's members got entirely too greedy over the years. The upper management did the same. Entirely too much money being paid for too many people and not enough being paid for quality parts and upgrading assembly techniques.
Hopefully they are seeing the light and beginning to understand that an over abundance of people and overpaying them are resulting in death to the corporation.
Heck, I grew up with Detroit Iron. Bought my 1st car, a '39 Ford Coupe, in 1956. I was 15. I was driving the 4th car (55 Plymouth convertible) when I graduated high school in '59. I love cars!
Somewhere around the 80's it became apparent that detroit was fighting change furiously. Meanwhile, those "Beer Can" rice burners were getting popular, running good, getting fairly good mileage, agile to drive, and not breaking much. So were the VW rabbits and such. Although the Rabbits did seem to have reliability problems that mirrored Detroit. We (I) kept buying Detroit and kept being disappointed.
If and when Detroit decides to start building a quality car, I will be glad to buy one. I didn't abandon them, they abandoned me!
"Kip, you seem like a very nice guy but your son buying a Ridgeline I would of told him to buy a real truck !!! Maybe next time, eh ??? "
Well...Maybe!
I forgot the Dodge Dakota that he traded his T-Bird for. When the transmission started acting up at 70K or so miles, he swapped it for the Mustang. He drove a bunch of different "trucks" before purchasing the Ridgeline. He drove mid size and Large from the Big 3 as well as from Toyota and Nissan. The Ridgeline "Fit" his needs better than the rest. Over this past summer my next door neighbor spent "Most" of the summer driving trucks to replace his 97 Dakota. I was with him most of the drives. He also bought a Ridgeline. While they don't look like a conventional truck, they drive and ride great. They are not designed for rock climbing or towing mega ton trailers, but they do very well for their intended purpose. Come to think of it, cars don't look much like they used to either!
Regards,
Kip
The only way any candidate will help the Big Three is to give them some sort of government aid (paid for with taxpayers' dollars - if taxpayers really wanted to give money to the Big Three, they would take the easier and more direct route and buy one of their products).
They will not lobby for any tariffs (which would be aimed squarely at South Korea, Japan and Germany - a great way to keep our allies happy!), and they will not do anything to hurt the transplant operations.
In other words, the troops are not coming over the hill to rescue the Big Three after the November elections, regardless of promises made during the heat of primary season...
Ford Belgium workers strike over pay - union
Meanwhile Gettelfinger is touting how the new UAW contract saves the Detroit 3 enough money to enable the automakers to design and build new and better products.
He also said:
"Speculation by individuals who haven't seen any data has absolutely no value,"
Which sort of kills the whole forums idea. :P
Feelings are facts! :confuse:
However, it is somewhat confusing to me, because according to the link/article you supplied, the "new hire" pay are are cut by 1/3.
You are saying that under the "NEW" plan, new hires start out at $14 hourly. That would indicate that under the old plan the starting pay was more like $21ish.
Kip, the 1/3 is incorrect. It really doesn't matter because up until a year and half-two years ago GM, didn't hire anybody since 99' !!! The last big hiring of any large scale was in 1995'. I would of been hired at GM, if only I was old enough.
Kip, you send him (your son) my way next time and I'll hook him up !!!
As far as blaming either side goes well we can but if you look at it closely like I have Kip, you would see that between all the unfair trade, currency manipulation, trade barriers, it's amazing GM, is able to turn-around and be competitive. :sick:
-Rocky
The jobs bank was pocket change compared to management errors like the Fiat and Isuzu deal !!! :sick:
-Rocky
I am very Pro Germany, as I have mostly German, blood flowing through my veins but I'm a american first !!!
It is an emotional drain seeing so many of my fellow country men struggle to put food on the table and gas in the tank. :sick:
-Rocky
You should have been around in the 1950s, 60s & 70s if you think this is bad. Only the wealthy could even afford a new car. My folks bought one new car in 1959. It got repossessed when my dad lost his job and could not make 2 payments. I think maybe you are a bit spoiled as are the older UAW workers. I do not know of any other business in the USA that pays workers when they have no work for them. Those UAW contracts as far as I know are the only ones. Most jobs if you had a good Union contract would pay you 6 weeks severance pay after many years with the company
I know what it is like to go without meals. No food stamps or free cheese. We had a couple months in 1953 that it was oreo cookies that got busted on the line and canned tomatoes. We were lucky when we could afford a 10 cent loaf of bread. My dad could not afford gas for our car and someone in the church loaned him an old Cushman motor scooter that he road in the rain in Portland clear across town to Nabisco.
Today there are places everywhere handing out free food. Food stamps are more prevalent than money in many stores. Bums on the street knock down $150 day to feed their drug habit. Yes I blame the government. For giving people the idea they could eat without working for it.
The Trade Act referred to earlier was known as the Trade Readjustment Act, as most laid off UAW folks in the 80s just called it TRA...I had to admire those who saw the changes coming and the handwriting on the wall and accepted the (taxpayer) money for job retraining...but for those who just whined and cried that "all I can do is right front wheels", and there were many (people, not right front wheels) they needed to grow up...
In the early spring of 2003 the bird flu or Asian flu crisis was hot and heavy and a large amount of fear was starting to spread as people weren't sure if this respiratory sickness was going to be contained or not.
I could've stayed on Boeing's recall/rehire list but just had had enough by May of 2003. So it worked out but let me tell you it was a load of work just keeping up with the funding paper trail and red tape. It was a headache and a half but I knew that America needed more Respiratory Therapists and I knew that I could be one one day.
If I were in the UAW and getting canned from my job I'd look in to The Trade Act and pick a skill that is accredited and on the Trade Act funded list and go for it. Things are not through getting worse for the domestic manufacturers.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
No kidding Gagrice, I think Rocky believes the whole country had it as good as UAW employees in Michigan back in the so called "good times" of the 50's & 60's. Unfortunatly, the big 3 couldn't employ the whole country so most US workers didn't have it nearly as well.
My Grandpa was severly injured in WW2 and was handicapped his whole life. He didn't have the physical capabilities to work and in a factory and most of his young working life while raising a family he had to work 2 jobs to even come close to making ends meet. He had to much pride to just stay at home and take 100% disability through the VA, not to mention back then the benefits were not very good anyway. This on top of the discrimination he had to endure, along with minorities. When I talk to my dad and my FIL about their childhood, they generally talk about how they didn't have much and how hard it was to get by.
Yesterday at work I spent the day with a 26 year old Network Engineer I work with. He has a stay at home wife with 2 kids and a house. He didn't go to college, he trained himself along with getting on the job training within various IT departments at different companies. He bought his first house at 19yrs/old. My point is you have to have marketable skills to be successful whether you get it on the job, at a university or a vocational school. I don't understand why some don't understand this concept.
Most of the computer engineers/technitions I work with didn't start out in this field. They were working for other companies in different fields where they either were laid off or didn't like the work they were doing. So instead of staying in a career they hated, or being bitter about not being able to find a job after getting canned. They got training in a different field to do something different to be successful at.
This is what can keep us competitive in the world. Having skilled and flexible workers go to where the opportunities are. Subsidizing workers at wages that are not competitive is not sustainable unless the company can find other ways to be efficient enough to make a profit while being competitive at the same time.
Rocky, I'm going by the below quote from the link. Says the "ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue". And we know how those types have all the latest scoop!
>>"A ranking GM executive, with detailed knowledge of the issue, doesn't dispute the numbers. And the provisions allowing all three companies to essentially pay new hires a third in wages and benefits what they pay traditional union hourlies will dramatically reduce labor costs."
Of course I'm not as close to the situation as you are, but I can definitely "feel" for anyone that faithfully goes to work every day, gets use to a given wage, and suddenly is faced with being laid off, no matter what the wage was.
Problem is that the economy can't afford to pay everyone a "GOOD" wage for every job. That guy hanging off the back of a garbage truck, in rain and snow, or even in good weather, wants to earn a "GOOD" wage, he certainly works harder than the postman on the same route, but the facts are that the "JOB" simply doesn't pay as well in most areas. If we paid everyone the same, we would be living in a Socialistic society that would soon collapse.
Japanese offerings are as expensive or more expensive as the Big 3 offerings. I can't rationalize how raising tariffs on the imports to price them out of range would benefit anyone other than the FAT CATS at the Big 3, and encourage business as usual.
I understand that you are real close to the situation, and some of this will possibly seem hurtful to you. I don't mean to do so, but I do feel strongly about the following . So please forgive my bluntness or ignorance, as the case may be. I'm drawing my conclusions from friends that work(ed) at GM and Ford as well as my being inside those facilities, and other types of businesses, performing my job.
Upper management tends to build dynasties. The more people reporting to them, the more they seem to be worth. With one company, I'm very close to, a regional manager had a staff of near 400 people. There were 4 of those regional managers in the states. I don't know about over seas. When down sizing took place, that Regional manager had only about 10 people left. He had to actually start earning his ridiculous salary. As it turned out, the job was more than he could handled and he was replaced in less than a year. The replacement did a wonderful job and the region started showing a profit again. Problem was that the 400 staff members were now out of a job.
The Big 3 are no different. Entirely too many "Chiefs" doing meaningless jobs but drawing "GOOD" pay. Now the hurtful part. I'm not asking for answers. Just expressing thoughts and questions in my own mind. Too many Indians drawing too much pay. How much is it really "WORTH" to a company for a guy to walk in of the street and start hanging bumpers or installing wheels? How much skill does that require? Does it require more skill than a short order cook that is having several waitresses yelling out orders for all kinds of different requirements and he still manages to get them right? Does it require more skill than the kid working at a tire store, changing, repairing, installing and balancing tires all day for minimum wage? Or the lady trying to pick up and/or deliver a bunch of noisy and misbehaving school kids with her bus?
Of course! We all want to earn as much as possible. But we have to understand that companies can only stand a certain amount of expense and still be competitive. Jobs with entry level skills need to be paid accordingly. Pay increases and promotions need to be due to Merit, and not because some contract says everybody gets a raise or doesn't. Promotions should be because a guy earned it, not simply because it is his turn. If a guy screws up repeatedly, he should be put on probation. If he doesn't get his act together, he should be terminated without fear of reprisal from the union. The achievers should get rewarded. The under achievers should not!
People already hired and "Promised" a certain pay should receive that pay. Although it may require some additional education and initiative on their parts, offered at company expense. I say that because they have and were promised a life style and should be able to maintain that lifestyle. But the new hires should be payed according to the skill level of the job. Unions need to get the hell out of the wages business. Deal with working conditions and education for their members.
Most companies will reward the achievers to keep them from leaving.
Two lines of thought here.
1. Give a man a fish and he will be hungry the next day. Teach him to fish and he can feed himself the rest of his life.
2. Build him a fire and he will be warm for the night. Set him on fire and he will be warm the rest of his short life.
Union greed has been not to teach, but to get that instant gratification which is leading to destruction. Same with the upper management "Empire" builders.
We need to applaud the importers that are building factories here. They are putting Americans back to work, producing good products. Their very presence have forced the Big 3 to get serious about their positions. They (Big 3) are definitely building better cars than a few years ago. I believe they can turn around with proper mind set. I would love to get back into Detroit Iron next trade!
We can't turn a ship around unless we change the position of the rudder!
Thanks,
Kip
With the 400 regional top level workers, how many real workers on the assembly line? What did they earn?
> But the new hires should be
payedpaid according to the skill level of the job. Unions need to get the hell out of the wages business. Deal with working conditions and education for their members.If I translate correctly, either other workers shouldn't be paid more than some workers doing different or lesser jobs OR you are in a position where you own a company and don't want to pay workers what they should receive.
>Deal with working conditions and education for their members. Most companies will reward the achievers to keep them from leaving.
...will reward if they are relatives, friends, or suck-noses...?
Frankly I thought your post was going to be reasonable at first. However, like many, your biases and media perceptions have affected reality. Perhaps Hillary will be able to fool enough people. If it weren't for unions in the past, most people in jobs making good wages to be middle class wouldn't be making those wages. The downturn of unions, after decades of listening to anti union rhetoric, has changed the workplace so much, we now begin to actually see and hear the overt abuses of employees by employers and the government's lack of interest in effectively enforcing rules about abuses. I've heard and seen many examples including those of falsification of employment information and promises of dates when pay would start. The people keep working but never receive a paycheck or don't receive the amount they should. People are being tricked into working under completely different circumstances than they were told when employed.
Perhaps you are in a position where that doesn't interest you; you just consider it a hurdle in the workplace for the lowly worker to overcome.
>Union greed has been not to teach,
It's the employer's place to train the workers for their specific workplace needs, not the union's job necessarily. That shows a viewpoint.
Remember not everyone can survive on McDonalds' wages. And that's what we're working toward.
When Henry worked with the unions, how many midlevel managers do you think he had relative to the number of people working on the line? How many do you think are inplace today at the big 3 or 2 whichever you please?
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I'm afraid the decades of Rush sitting with his drugged billions talking about unions and schrewels and those awful unions has had an effect. The rebound may give us a president we won't want.
Things aren't as rosey at some nonunion plants as you would be led to think:
Toyota Georgetown-Washington Post 2004
Now Toyota has been having meetings to explain how they need to keep wages lower.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
We have the government in an election year talking about how the FAA in the important New York (they vote) area needs to be upgraded. I wonder how the PATCO strike and Reagan booting of the union workers has impacted the FAA? Do you think the gov'ment has put the money saved into extra quality technology to improve flight control? Duh, no. But we busted that union; no more having people tell us how much they are worth in pay!
I consider myself prounion within reason. Some unions went crooked because of government's lack of control of the mafia: can you say Kennedy? Marilyn Monroe? etc.
I notice the Menard's ad has appliances marked which are manufactured in the US. That would affect my purchase choice. It may not be too long before we pick up a new electric range, e.g. I'll buy US.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't know how many assembly plants they had world wide or how many employees per plant or how many salesmen in the region or service personal. I don't know or care how much money any of them made. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the statement.
The man had 400 staff, it was reduced to 10, he was eventually replaced, and the business improved drastically. I would expect that the other 3 USA regional managers had the same experiences. Their empires were brought down.
"If I translate correctly, either other workers shouldn't be paid more than some workers doing different or lesser jobs OR you are in a position where you own a company and don't want to pay workers what they should receive".
I don't have a clue what you are saying before the "OR"! Try again.
If you actually read my post(s) you will know that I worked for a company that enabled me to service equipment in lots of places. I carried a tool bag. I saw what was going on. Had drinks after work with executives and workers alike.
"...will reward if they are relatives, friends, or suck-noses...? "
Uh....Yeah right!
"Perhaps you are in a position where that doesn't interest you; you just consider it a hurdle in the work place for the lowly worker to overcome."
Sorry dude, I carried a tool bag for 30 years. I was a worker ! Shied away from becoming a manager. I preferred to be moving around and dealing with the customers and machines. However I worked hard and gave the Company 100% for my pay. It rewarded me with raises and promotions. It didn't reward the slackers. Most companies worth a crap will bend over backwards to keep "Good" employees. Why would they want to loose a good worker and take a chance on hiring a slacker. However those employees that thought doing a good job were, as you put it, "suck-noses". They went away. :sick:
"Remember not everyone can survive on McDonalds' wages. And that's what we're working toward." "....If it weren't for unions in the past, most people in jobs making good wages to be middle class wouldn't be making those wages."
I agree on both points. Do you think the McDonald employees should earn middle class wages. Should they be payed middle class wages for flippin burgers? Throw a union in the mix and you and I can pay $15 for a Big Mac. While we are at it, lets raise the salaries of everybody involved in growing the food, harvesting the food, processing it, and delivering it to McDonalds. Lets raise them to middle class levels and you can pay $25 for that burger.
Let's go a little farther and Unionize all people involved in building a house. A friend contracted to build an 800 sq foot HUD house for the city of Atlanta. He gave them a price using his subs that have been doing work for him for years. They told him he had to use union workers all the way. The price went up 2 times his original quote. To put that in real world terms. A house that might sell today for $200K would jump to $400k with your union. Is that what you want?
Promote your union mentality and you will find that you are no longer middle class. You are making the same as the lowest paying jobs with their unions. .
My belief is that todays Unions should deal with work place conditions and encouraging the employers through negotiation to make education available to the employees. Such as helping or paying for trade schools and/or college tuition, Health benefits, retirement of some type, 401Ks and so forth
Twist it any way you wish!
Kip
That, along with the $25 burger is fine with me, PROVIDED that my wage is commensurate with those prices. You see, it sounds as if you look at the price ALONE ($400k house and $25 burger) and go :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
Well, that's what I would expect the reaction to be from someone who passed away in 1960 if they were resurrected today, and after paying 15 CENTS for a burger when they died, saw the same burger for $1.50 now.
Here is a list of prices from 50 years ago:
House: $30,000
Average income: $4,650
Ford car: $1967-$3929
Milk: $1.01
Gas: $.24
Bread $.19
Postage stamp: $.04
Chef Boy-Ar-Dee spaghetti, 15 1/2 .oz can.: $ .19
Corned Beef: $.59 lb.
Swiss Steak: $.75 lb.
Libby Tomato Juice, 5 (46 .oz) cans: $1.00
Kraft Carmels, 1 lb pkg: $.37
Milk: $.42 half gal.
Uncle Ben’s Rice, 14 oz box - $.19
Sunkist Oranges, 5 lbs.: $.49
Cantaloupe: $.05 lb.
Celery: $.04 lb.
Tuition at Harvard: $1,250 yr.
Nathan's Hot Dog: $.25
Roundtrip airfare London to New York: $453
Now, some things seem to be commensurate with today's prices in that you'd probably spend $2 at a diner for a Hot dog, $300k for a good house, 41 cts. for a stamp (prices are a multple of 10). But other things, like a gallon of milk (from the Dairy farmers perspective) only up 4x's??? $46,000 a year is like $23 in change/hr. Harvard tuition is up 35 TIMES!!! How out of whack is that????
The man had 400 staff, it was reduced to 10, he was eventually replaced, and the business improved drastically. I would expect that the other 3 USA regional managers had the same experiences. Their empires were brought down.
With all do respect Kip, I think it does have a lot to do with the situation. If management would of had 4 workers producing something for 3 admin people pushing paper the company you spoke about would of been much further ahead. As you said 10 people were able to do the job that 400 previously did. I feel bad for the other 390 folks that lost their job but this is what happens when the chief has lots of indians and that is exactly the situation at GM. If my memory is correct GM, at one time had 7 admin. people for every UAW worker. :surprise: I think Ford, is like 4 to 1 now. I'm not sure exactly where all of them are at with all the changes and buy-outs. :sick:
I don't have a clue what you are saying before the "OR"! Try again.
He said he thought you believed that some workers should be paid more than others. (OR) you are in a position where you own a company and don't want to pay workers what they should receive.
If you actually read my post(s) you will know that I worked for a company that enabled me to service equipment in lots of places. I carried a tool bag. I saw what was going on. Had drinks after work with executives and workers alike.
If you were having drinks with executives I'm sure because of their titles, power, you were inclined to believe them over the workers because you wouldn't dare bite against the hand that feeds you.
Uh....Yeah right!
What was un true with imidazol97's statement ? :confuse:
Sorry dude, I carried a tool bag for 30 years. I was a worker ! Shied away from becoming a manager. I preferred to be moving around and dealing with the customers and machines. However I worked hard and gave the Company 100% for my pay. It rewarded me with raises and promotions. It didn't reward the slackers. Most companies worth a crap will bend over backwards to keep "Good" employees. Why would they want to loose a good worker and take a chance on hiring a slacker. However those employees that thought doing a good job were, as you put it, "suck-noses". They went away.
Being a contract employee doing service work for a company and being an employee of that company is a lot diferent !!! I've done that line of work before and what I thought was a great company turned out the turn over ratio was quite high. I and imidazol97, obviously do not know to many "good company's" like those you describe. In capitalism, the bottom line is the buck and if you can be replaced by a maggot for a less the suits are going to hand you a pink slip !!!
I agree on both points. Do you think the McDonald employees should earn middle class wages. Should they be payed middle class wages for flippin burgers?
McDonalds, is the largest fast food chain in the world. I do think they could do a much better job in compensation for their employees. At one time here in the 90's McDonalds, was paying $9.00 an hour for new employees. Now those jobs are back at minimum wage. I worked at McDonalds and made minumum wage in 1997 while tryingto go to college. I had zero benefits, and they wouldn't even help pay for my tuition.
Throw a union in the mix and you and I can pay $15 for a Big Mac.
So here ya go off the deep-end and is why I can't take you seriously. :sick:
While we are at it, lets raise the salaries of everybody involved in growing the food, harvesting the food, processing it, and delivering it to McDonalds. Lets raise them to middle class levels and you can pay $25 for that burger.
As far as the food growing part of it goes I've seen studies that if american's paid an extra $30 dollars a year for their fruits and vegetables farm workers could be paid about $15-18 dollars an hour thus eliminating the illegal alien issue.
con't...........
-Rocky