Saying, "UAW members make so many dollars per year, and are overpaid, and are thus the root of the Big Three's problems," is easy (everyone understands the concept of take-home pay, and that pay usually rises with level of education), but incorrect. The real problem is much more complicated, but the UAW isn't completely blameless. On the other hand, with the latest contract, I see Mr. Gettelfinger and the union leadership accepting reality, even if Rockylee doesn't like it.
I agree with that. More than likely Gettelfinger may rattle his sabre in the pulpit, but when he sits down with company negotiators, he's probably all business and quite civil. We all know people get further with sugar and honey as opposed to salt and vinegar.
As far as locals blocking firings and such, it is their responsibility to investigate what happened, and see if they can lessen the blow. From what I've seen sometimes you have employees with clean working records butt heads with a foreman and then end up suspended for something picayune. It is the union's job to say "Hey Joe's a good worker. Never happened before.Can't you give him a warning??" Most times cooler heads prevail. Ultimately bad apples end up where they belong-on the outside looking in, because they go too far too many times. Even our union gets sick of defending them, but they must. THIS is where they get a bad rap.
I used to work in a factory that manufactured commercial ovens and ranges a little over 20 years ago. As a prank, a couple of guys grabbed a co-worker, threw him in a large cardboard box, banded the box to a pallet, and then lifted the pallet onto a high shelf with a forklift. They left him up there for a few hours and then took the box down, let the guy out, but then grabbed him again, hung him by his belt on a hook, and sprayed him with fire extiguishers. These two guys should definately have been fired, but the Teamsters local got them off with a 30-day suspension w/o pay.
ROTFLMFAO over and over again!!!!!!! I must say though, If (a big IF) they had spotless work records, then maybe the punnishment fit the crime. Another thing, did the union try to "strongarm" management into that, or was it more like "Aw c'mon, it was just a prank" and management said OK. A month w/o pay is still significant.
And I quote, "I will NEVER get over this POMPOUS ARROGANT attitude of demanding lower wages because YOU think they have no skill."
It is not me who makes those decisions, it is the market slamming them in the face...
No, I am not expecting everyone to abandon the North and move South...heck, we have enough here already...:):):)
But, my question/statement has not received a reply...tell me, considering the business climate up there, what does Michigan offer that would make any company set up shop there, as opposed to somewhere else???
We offer skilled labor here in Michigan. I know Marsha7, thinks just anybody can make automobiles but their is a lot of skilled positions at these automobile plants.
>the daily absentee rate at the transplants is about 1-2 percent of the workforce, compared to about 10-12 percent of the Big Three plants.
Is this the current absentee comparison or is it from a few years in the past. I find the numbers very telling and interesting. If the plants operate without 10% of their workers, that means they could operate with fewer workers most of the time; there's a place to cut costs for current labor further.
If those numbers are recent, that means there should be willing negotiation on the part of the unions to tighten up on the number of workers needed in the plant to operate the plant each day if they have to operate with people missing at a 10% level each day.
>The Big Three provide very generous health care plans, with little or no co-payments, to both members and retirees.
This is a very big cost to the Big Three for the retirees through the years with full pay healthcare, visioncare, dentalcare, etc. It is only reasonable that the retirees use some of their in cases previous to the last few years generous retirement pay to pay for healthcare and other costs. UAW retirees the last few years have less generous retirements and already pay healthcare costs if I understand correctly.
>As a lawyer, explain this to me: If ANYONE of a certain age can be elected to MAKE laws then why must you get a law degree to PRACTICE law? I know legally we may represent ourselves in court, but isn't there a saying about only a fool would represent themselves? As a citizen, just like the president represents ME, it is also MY legislature, and MY judiciary, yet LAWYERS seem to rule the roost there. I would say if any idiot can hang a bumper, then any idiot can read a law, interperet in THEIR OWN WAY, and form an OPINION.
I have to ask if lawyers in the nonunion South charge less than those in the unionphilic North? Obviously there's a difference in payscales from North to South. Therefore lawyers should be charging less. :P :shades:
It's always been interesting how legislatures pass laws making having lawyers do things requisite; most legislatures are full of lawyers. Is there a problem there? :confuse: :P :mad:
Maybe we need lawyers from India able to serve the public by internet, e.g., and have that readily recognized as just as effective a vehicle for making a will or probating an estate as the local guy who eats donuts and coffee with all the shakers and movers in his small town and charges an arm and a leg to put on wheels, er I mean wills. :confuse: :sick:
I say we all open our own law firm: The Law Firm of imidazol97, Rocky,Cooter, and Epstein. :P (insert sarcastic comment here:) What's that you say Bob???
I do not know what the media is basing their numbers off of ???? UAW, employees get so many personal days like 5 a year to use when they are sick. When you have a large group of employees in their mid 50's health problems and wear and tear is going to be at a higher rate than those at toyota, where the workforce is much younger. You also got to remember back in the day their was no such thing as ergonomics so the wear and tear of repetition people did on assembly lines well has wears body parts out and knee, shoulder, carpal tunnel, surgery will cause a higher absent rate. I know people often over look this fact. I guess they could operate like they do in non-union shops and tap you on the shoulder and say "Your out of here !!" :sick:
The healthcare fund has already been negotiated as VEBA, thus now the company's are off the hook.
>Law Firm of imidazol97, Rocky,Cooter, and Epstein.
That would be Rock, Cooter, imid, and Epstein, LLC. We must be a limited liability corporation because we wouldn't want to be responsible for any errors. Also all financial holdsing have to be in our wive's (or husband's or significant others) names.
I was going to ask Bob before you guys laid into him if he is affiliated with any Bar association? That is a Union of sorts. Would it not be similar to the NEA and AMA?
I hope we haven't offended him with the lawyer talk. He's a little rough on us dumb northerners and rough on the unions. Have you ever heard talk about how lawyers won't take cases that pounce on other lawyers for errors? Would that be like unions not handling bad apples within their membership (like people who unlawfully detain people in a shipping box on a rack and who hang him from a coathook?).
I think lawyers have a code of ethics that are taboo. I don't think you get to find out until you pass the Bar Exam and get initiated. I do know it is not uncommon to run into your attorney having drinks with the opposing attorney. I've done that in Anchorage. Close knit bunch.
"Where the transplants come out ahead is in a variety of areas, one of which is more efficient work rules. It doesn't take three union workers to change a light bulb, and "that's not my job" is not part of the language in their plants.
This is why, during 2007, Ford had been quietly working with the UAW to implement competitive operating agreements (COAs) in all of its plants. Ford and the UAW had successfully negotiated new COAs for all but a handful of the Ford plants PRIOR to last year's contract negotiations.
Granted, the UAW tends to have a better relationship with Ford than with Chrysler and GM, but I don't think that Mr. Gettelfinger would have sanctioned these COAs if he didn't believe that Ford needed to become more competitive in this area. GM has been working with the UAW to implement COAs in its plants, too, but GM tends to lag behind Ford in labor relations."
> You also got to remember back in the day their was no such thing as ergonomics so the wear and tear of repetition people did on assembly lines well has wears body parts out and knee, shoulder, carpal tunnel, surgery will cause a higher absent rate. I know people often over look this fact
I did forget about that factor. The transplants have newer plants and have better designs for making work less damaging physically on the body; the older UAW/Big 3 factories were designed in the 40-50-60s and often jobs were causes of injury to workers.
>When you have a large group of employees in their mid 50's health problems and wear and tear is going to be at a higher rate than those at toyota, where the workforce is much younger.
The younger workforce is able to do damaging work for a long time before the injury from chronic irritation shows up. Also the younger workers are more naive about what their rights are in terms of work practices.
In the Georgetown Toyota discussion the use of more and more temporaries makes that kind of complaint from a worker much less likely to occur because of the understanding that you don't have any rights to work there tomorrow; so complain and we have another person for your place.
Other the other hand the 10-12% grbeck cited concerns me. I do not question the number size, but I am interested in its relevance still today for that group of workers.
As for the ergonomics, that was a real part of what I observed at the IUE-Moraine plant. Everything seemed to be positioned and performed in a way to minimize injury from repetition of the job. I can't imagine GM closing the plant rather than building something else there if SUVs fall out of favor.
I still haven't made it to Georgetown. I need to pencil in a date to go there to take their tour. Maybe I can visit the Honda plant in Indiana.
I still haven't made it to Georgetown. I need to pencil in a date to go there to take their tour. Maybe I can visit the Honda plant in Indiana.
You should also check out the Toyota plant in Indiana where my Sequoia was built/assembled.
Ergonomics is a fairly recent term applied to our work places in the USA. It is actually about 2500 years old. I guess we are slow learners.
The foundations of the science of ergonomics appear to have been laid within the context of the culture of Ancient Greece. A good deal of evidence indicates that Hellenic civilization in the 5th century BC used ergonomic principles in the design of their tools, jobs, and workplaces. One outstanding example of this can be found in the description Hippocrates gave of how a surgeon's workplace should be designed.
The term ergonomics is derived from the Greek words ergon [work] and nomos [natural laws] and first entered the modern lexicon when Wojciech Jastrzębowski used the word in his 1857 article Rys ergonomji czyli nauki o pracy, opartej na prawdach poczerpniętych z Nauki Przyrody.
That's Princeton and there are not currently tours. Supposedly a visitor center was started in 2007 to be completed in 2008 for those wanting to Tundras, Siennas, and Sequoias, or one thereof, being built by Toyota.
"Ford Motor Co. said Thursday it will offer buyout and early retirement packages to 54,000 U.S. hourly workers in an effort to cut more jobs and replace workers with those making a lower wage.
Chief Executive Alan Mulally said the new round of buyouts was negotiated with the United Auto Workers union. In addition, Ford plans to continue to reduce its salaried work force this year, mostly through attrition."
Ford does not need to worry about the good ones taking the package and going to work for GM. Hopefully it will thin out the ones that are not in great health or banged up from 30+ years of hard work. The more that take it the better chance Ford has to survive.
Think of it this way. Wonder if the Detroit Lions had to keep the players till they were ready to retire. They would lose their competitive edge, if they had one to start with. Even Joe Montana had to go eventually.
How much are labor costs in relation to the total price of a new vehicle?
The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
"UAW President Ron Gettelfinger told reporters at an event Thursday in Detroit that the union agreed to the packages and knows that Ford wants to bring in more lower-paid workers.
"We knew what we were doing when we went into it, but we also recognized that the companies did need help," he said.
Ford may replace workers taking the buyouts with workers who would be paid $14.20 per hour, or about half the wages of a current worker. "
so many lawyer posts, I will respond to what I can remember and you will have to re-post to remind me what I missed... :P :surprise:
rocky: yes, you have skilled labor...but since all the new auto plants have set up down here, you folks up there obviously have NO SKILLS that cannot be taught to one of the dumb, Southern rednecks that you think we are...we make the same products, so any advantage you think you have in your skilled labor is a myth...and our products are selling...
In order to stay licensed I must belong to the Georgia Bar Association, where I pay my dues...however, I REFUSE to belong the the ABA, as they are anti-gun, ultra liberal, anti-death penalty and basically are captive to the radical left wing of the Democratic party...they call me every year, and every year I tell them why I will never join...
imidaz: I have often thought that laws should be writtten in plain English by regular people, but what do I know???...since things like property law and deeds comes descended from a few hundred years ago, it may be hard for "civilians" to write laws in plain language...take, for instance, transferring property to the next generation but maintaining a life estate until you die...legalese seems to work simply because some aspects of law are more complex than "me give this to you"...how do you handle trusts, wills, etc???
Instead of Dewey, Cheatem and Howe, I have joined the firm of Robb, Steele and Cheatem...better pay...
I am sure that Northern lawyers probably do have a higher hourly rate than us lowly, ignorant redneck lawyers...
Who and waht did I miss???
Oh, and whoever thought I might be offended by what was said...do you really think I could become a lawyer and not have a tough skin to tolerate your childish ranting???...puhleez... :P ...you simply remind me of my whining clients, except they pay me to tolerate their whining and you don't.....................yet.....................:):):):):)
I REFUSE to belong the the ABA, as they are anti-gun, ultra liberal, anti-death penalty and basically are captive to the radical left wing of the Democratic party...they call me every year, and every year I tell them why I will never join.
BRAVO, It sounds like you are one of the few rare ones that did not get sucked into that ignorance.
I have often thought that laws should be writtten in plain English by regular people,
We just had our trust done. It is close to one inch thick. I got blurry eyed going over all of it. It is mostly done to keep us common folk from meddling in things of the law...
Our Union contract was only 41 pages. I could quote it from front to back. Makes it easier when filing a grievance. It also heads off frivolous complaints by the whiners in the crew.
" yes, you have skilled labor...but since all the new auto plants have set up down here, you folks up there obviously have NO SKILLS that cannot be taught to one of the dumb, Southern rednecks that you think we are...we make the same products, so any advantage you think you have in your skilled labor is a myth...and our products are selling..."
Oh, and whoever thought I might be offended by what was said...do you really think I could become a lawyer and not have a tough skin to tolerate your childish ranting???...puhleez... :P ...you simply remind me of my whining clients, except they pay me to tolerate their whining and you don't.....................yet.....................:):):):):)
Wasn't one of the auto companies having trouble with quality and assembly from a plant in the South? Alabama?
The MB plant down in Alabama had teething pains (blamed more on their local suppliers), but the Nissan factory in Canton MS has the worst reputation I think.
I just happen to have a book about Tupelo in my bookshelf - that's near where Toyota is building their new factory. The newspaper there editorialized back in the late 30's against the industrialists, accusing them of betraying Mississippi workers by luring "starvation-wage outfits there under the guise of progress." Workers weren't organized into unions but they still managed to strike.
Next thing you know, the national guard shows up in the field next to the struck cotton mill to "practice." The workers took to the field, chased the guard off and proceeded to join the CIO. The strike was abandoned after a couple of weeks.
Then the war came, TVA arrived and more manufacturing jobs replaced the farm jobs that had been disappearing for years. The publisher of the paper kept preaching "we don't want to be the dumping ground for labor exploiters.... Selling her people short is the poorest practice ever engaged in by the South."
The publisher was reviled by the business folk before WWII for inciting the labor strikes but after the war they formed a Chamber of Commerce and made him president. In spite of all their economic development efforts, I think people are still lured away to the much bigger cities of Memphis and Atlanta.
The MB with perhaps the worst reputation in the history of the company - the ML - is made in Alabama.
I think we should offshore legal knowledge to India. No reason people in Bangalore can't deciper the intentionally nebulous legalese and provide service at 10% the cost.
Don't they build the GL down there also? I really wanted to like the GL320 CDI. That 7 speed transmission leaves a lot to be desired in my book. I think that Alabama is a Right to Work state. The UAW will avoid those places.
It's already a $163 billion dollar industry. :shades:
"The time difference between India and the United States allows for work to be done overnight, and many people in India's enormous workforce are college-educated and English-speaking." Legal Affairs
get your legal work done in India...have a NICE time trying to get them to appear when your case comes up on the trial calendar...
Hey, I have no problem if you want boilerplate work done by a discount lawyer...if you knew how many folks break down in tears when we discuss bankruptcy, you would understand that this is a face-to-face part of law, and I do not believe that someone from India over the phone, or webcam, can offer the same level of service that I do...but, if the UAW (ON TOPIC!!!) has to compete with nonunion labor, I can compete with India lawyers...after all, fair is fair!!!!!
gagrice: I will bet that your trust could have been done in 10 pages...I recently saw a 50 page will and all it did on the TWO pages that mattered was spilt up the lady's estate among 4 children 30%, 30%, 20%, 20%...for what she paid for that will, I would have filed a bar complaint and had the attorney disciplined...
I believe that Mercedes built the original ML SUVs in Alabama, and di have troubles...but, I also believe that the E series built in Germany has also had a quality decline in the last 7 years, if you believe the posts here on Edmunds...
Two things for Rocky: 1) Read this issue of Forbes and look for Jerry Flint's column...he lambasts Chrysler management for their lousy cars, and, I believe that labor is never even mentioned once...ought to make rocky's day...
2) If I remember history correctly, many of those "skilled workers" that you claim you have are actually displaced Southerners who migrated up north simply because the wages were better for the unskilled labor they performed...so many of YOUR workers are the former Southerners that you think are the ignorant rednecks...sorry, pal, once again your youth and lack of understanding of history prior to Bill Clinton will always come back and bite you in the ***********... :P
gagrice: I will bet that your trust could have been done in 10 pages
Most of the trust is disclaimers. Also health directives and we have different heirs. Plus different dispersal depending on who dies first. It is a bit complicated by my wife's trust that we folded into our trust.
Has anyone read how the buyouts are going at Ford?
If I remember history correctly, many of those "skilled workers" that you claim you have are actually displaced Southerners who migrated up north simply because the wages were better for the unskilled labor they performed...so many of YOUR workers are the former Southerners that you think are the ignorant rednecks...sorry, pal, once again your youth and lack of understanding of history prior to Bill Clinton will always come back and bite you in the ***********... :P
Marsha, you make a good point.
My grandpa was born in Tennessee and he moved up north to Gary, Indiana when he was 18 yrs old to worked 43 years as a union steel worker. He wasn't the dumb "hick" Rocky describes southerners.
But I guess since Indiana is south of Michigan, everyone in Indiana are stupid hicks too.
I've lived in 6 different states and I can attest that stupid is found every where.
Anything to brighten your day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just read in yesterdays paper that Ford offered buyouts to another 35000 workers...(also about 10K salaried workers, IIRC)
For once, this will NOT be a union bashing post, but a simple acknowledgement of the obvious...if they can dump, thru buyouts, over 50,000 workers, doesn't that truly mean that they have been overstaffed by billions of dollars of payroll for decades???
Even if you are the President of the UAW, can't you be intellectually honest and admit that Ford (and GM and Chrysler) had thousands of workers being paid to do nothing, if they can eliminate them and still make the cars???...
Lat's make it even simpler...if you have 100 people making cars, and you lose 50 and can still make the same amount of cars, wouldn't ANY logical person, and even rocky, admit that the 50 extra workers were simply a drag on company profits because they were never needed???...how can anyone justify "keeping those jobs:" when any semi-intelligent person can see that they are simply overstaffed???...so, when some Presidential candidate says that "they will bring the jobs back" can anybody actually believe that when no one can force anyone to buy a Big 3 product, and, even if they could, since they don;t need that many people to make the cars, just where does anyone expect the "employment" to come from???
Employment of whom???...to do what???...the days of featherbedding are over, they will hire what they need and no more...in the 50s and 60s and 70s Michigan had mass in-migration for the jobs...
Last year there was an net out-migration of about 65,000 people...rest assured, it will only increase overtime as the displaced either sell their homes (to whom???) or walk away and file Chapter 7...
The artifically created glory days of Michigan are dead and over and will never return...it is simply part of the cycle that cannot be stopped, and there are no jobs, at least in any mass scale, that will return to Michigan...yet, still, the Mich gov't has higher taxes and more regulations on business and is too stupid to try and hold onto anything they can...
if they can dump, thru buyouts, over 50,000 workers, doesn't that truly mean that they have been overstaffed by billions of dollars of payroll for decades???
I would guess the plan is to hire folks at the lower wage to replace the aging workers that take the buyout. That will save nearly half. Though they will be paying retirement.
You are probably right. They would be better off just downsizing unless their new contracts allow for temps to fill in the gaps. The non union automakers are using more and more temps. That seems to be a trend.
at Ford, GM and Chrysler had been much more on their toes and designed buyable products a few decades ago, this problem(along with obnoxious UAW greed)would never have come careening in on them like it has.
Finally, the Ford Verve, based on the Mazda2 platform, is in the works. Ding-ding-ding-ding...Bob, I think we have a winner!
Tell them what they've won, Bob, on our fun American game show!
Lat's make it even simpler...if you have 100 people making cars, and you lose 50 and can still make the same amount of cars, wouldn't ANY logical person, and even rocky, admit that the 50 extra workers were simply a drag on company profits because they were never needed???...how can anyone justify "keeping those jobs:" when any semi-intelligent person can see that they are simply overstaffed???
Because some believe the company should only exist to provide jobs and that profits only feed greedy management and shareholders.
they will NOT replace each one, worker for worker...expect a radical downsizing, so I still stand by my statement...
Umm...no, your original statement suggests the UAW is overstaffed by 50% and that they can build the same amount of vehicles if they eliminate 50% of their workforce. That's not even close to what you backpedaled on in this last message.
Lat's make it even simpler...if you have 100 people making cars, and you lose 50 and can still make the same amount of cars, wouldn't ANY logical person, and even rocky, admit that the 50 extra workers were simply a drag on company profits because they were never needed???...
Have you ever heard of the Harbour Report? It is a measure of how many hours per vehicle (HPV) is required to build a product. Whether a worker is installing seats directly into the vehicle, doing a sub assembly job offline, or an inspector running tests in another part of the facility they all count toward the manpower hours needed to get the final product out the door.
Look up the latest figures and then come back and show me where ANY of the Big Three takes twice as many manhours to build a vehicle as it does ANY foreign car plant.
And if you want to talk about things before the Clinton era, I'm all ready. I'm old enough to belong to AARP and I've been a UAW member for over 24 years and counting.
an Edmunds Forum contributor has actually identified theirself as a UAW member. That's kind of...umm...revealing in a way.
Tell us about this jobs bank deal. Workers actually get paid to sit around and pick their nose and watch 'The Price is Right?' Since they've loyally paid their union dues and there is no real work for them they have "earned" the UAW right to sit there and eat raspberry jelly donuts and drink fine 'Seattle's Best' coffee and watch the bucks roll in. Doesn't that sound a tad retarded to y'all?
Oh, silly me. It's only a "temporary" thing. Eldon will be back in his "real" UAW job as soon as Joe takes a vacation and opens up a spot. Does this even start sounding overly spendful to you? Yikes. Gotta build us some more oversized, over-priced GM vehicles that the loyalists will slather up with quite some favor. Talk about the royal automotive treatment. This is only some of the twisted, money-losing thinking that has made things overly tough on those called upon to "save" the domestic manufacturers.
Are you down south? They got cheap labor down there, that is why the pants got moved there, not because your dumb, your life style is less then ours, that is why the housing and auto are going out of biz....... If you would get the same money that we would we would all have are jobs and are homes and the economy would not be go in the [non-permissible content removed]......
I have 21 years in the car biz... selling them and now in the service dept....I went to the service dept. is because the sale dept was and is going under.... :confuse: :mad:
There have been many allegations that UAW protected workers who were incompetent or did improper things. Compare that to this case of attorneys and attorneys. BTW, how many people get a drunk driving arrest at 0.13 and don't have any punishment other than diversion and 3 day program leading to no record after one year?
Oh, I'm not sure if she's an attorney or not. County commissioner, new last couple of years. Prior city commissioner for small town in county. Husband is attorney and Democrat Party Chairman. Judge is elected in a city court in north end of county. She is an attorney (obviously). Her husband is prosecuting attorney for many, many years after his father was prosecuting attorney for county. Oh, they live about 1-1.5 miles from each other. Husband called judge to make sure she knew about wife being on docket?
Some humor is she told the State Patrol office twice that she was a county commissioner. He thanked her for her service!!!! :P
She told him she had been at a function with the governor that evening. Lie. The lieutenant governor had been at a function.
Hmmmm. Is that protecting someone? One of the newspaper articles has some pretty straight forward blog posts after it.
If the daytondailynews.com requests a login, check at bugmenot.com for a login that works... or do a quick login with simple answers to the questions and it lets you into the info.
Comments
I agree with that. More than likely Gettelfinger may rattle his sabre in the pulpit, but when he sits down with company negotiators, he's probably all business and quite civil. We all know people get further with sugar and honey as opposed to salt and vinegar.
As far as locals blocking firings and such, it is their responsibility to investigate what happened, and see if they can lessen the blow. From what I've seen sometimes you have employees with clean working records butt heads with a foreman and then end up suspended for something picayune. It is the union's job to say "Hey Joe's a good worker. Never happened before.Can't you give him a warning??" Most times cooler heads prevail. Ultimately bad apples end up where they belong-on the outside looking in, because they go too far too many times. Even our union gets sick of defending them, but they must. THIS is where they get a bad rap.
CLASSIC story though :shades: :shades: :shades:
It is not me who makes those decisions, it is the market slamming them in the face...
No, I am not expecting everyone to abandon the North and move South...heck, we have enough here already...:):):)
But, my question/statement has not received a reply...tell me, considering the business climate up there, what does Michigan offer that would make any company set up shop there, as opposed to somewhere else???
-Rocky
-Rocky
Is this the current absentee comparison or is it from a few years in the past. I find the numbers very telling and interesting. If the plants operate without 10% of their workers, that means they could operate with fewer workers most of the time; there's a place to cut costs for current labor further.
If those numbers are recent, that means there should be willing negotiation on the part of the unions to tighten up on the number of workers needed in the plant to operate the plant each day if they have to operate with people missing at a 10% level each day.
>The Big Three provide very generous health care plans, with little or no co-payments, to both members and retirees.
This is a very big cost to the Big Three for the retirees through the years with full pay healthcare, visioncare, dentalcare, etc. It is only reasonable that the retirees use some of their in cases previous to the last few years generous retirement pay to pay for healthcare and other costs. UAW retirees the last few years have less generous retirements and already pay healthcare costs if I understand correctly.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have to ask if lawyers in the nonunion South charge less than those in the unionphilic North? Obviously there's a difference in payscales from North to South. Therefore lawyers should be charging less. :P
It's always been interesting how legislatures pass laws making having lawyers do things requisite; most legislatures are full of lawyers. Is there a problem there? :confuse: :P :mad:
Maybe we need lawyers from India able to serve the public by internet, e.g., and have that readily recognized as just as effective a vehicle for making a will or probating an estate as the local guy who eats donuts and coffee with all the shakers and movers in his small town and charges an arm and a leg to put on wheels, er I mean wills.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
(insert sarcastic comment here:)
What's that you say Bob???
Oh those are crickets I hear.
I do not know what the media is basing their numbers off of ???? UAW, employees get so many personal days like 5 a year to use when they are sick. When you have a large group of employees in their mid 50's health problems and wear and tear is going to be at a higher rate than those at toyota, where the workforce is much younger. You also got to remember back in the day their was no such thing as ergonomics so the wear and tear of repetition people did on assembly lines well has wears body parts out and knee, shoulder, carpal tunnel, surgery will cause a higher absent rate. I know people often over look this fact. I guess they could operate like they do in non-union shops and tap you on the shoulder and say "Your out of here !!" :sick:
The healthcare fund has already been negotiated as VEBA, thus now the company's are off the hook.
-Rocky
That would be Rock, Cooter, imid, and Epstein, LLC. We must be a limited liability corporation because we wouldn't want to be responsible for any errors. Also all financial holdsing have to be in our wive's (or husband's or significant others) names.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was going to ask Bob before you guys laid into him if he is affiliated with any Bar association? That is a Union of sorts. Would it not be similar to the NEA and AMA?
I hope we haven't offended him with the lawyer talk. He's a little rough on us dumb northerners and rough on the unions. Have you ever heard talk about how lawyers won't take cases that pounce on other lawyers for errors? Would that be like unions not handling bad apples within their membership (like people who unlawfully detain people in a shipping box on a rack and who hang him from a coathook?).
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This is why, during 2007, Ford had been quietly working with the UAW to implement competitive operating agreements (COAs) in all of its plants. Ford and the UAW had successfully negotiated new COAs for all but a handful of the Ford plants PRIOR to last year's contract negotiations.
Granted, the UAW tends to have a better relationship with Ford than with Chrysler and GM, but I don't think that Mr. Gettelfinger would have sanctioned these COAs if he didn't believe that Ford needed to become more competitive in this area. GM has been working with the UAW to implement COAs in its plants, too, but GM tends to lag behind Ford in labor relations."
Excellent Points!
Kip
I did forget about that factor. The transplants have newer plants and have better designs for making work less damaging physically on the body; the older UAW/Big 3 factories were designed in the 40-50-60s and often jobs were causes of injury to workers.
>When you have a large group of employees in their mid 50's health problems and wear and tear is going to be at a higher rate than those at toyota, where the workforce is much younger.
The younger workforce is able to do damaging work for a long time before the injury from chronic irritation shows up. Also the younger workers are more naive about what their rights are in terms of work practices.
In the Georgetown Toyota discussion the use of more and more temporaries makes that kind of complaint from a worker much less likely to occur because of the understanding that you don't have any rights to work there tomorrow; so complain and we have another person for your place.
Other the other hand the 10-12% grbeck cited concerns me. I do not question the number size, but I am interested in its relevance still today for that group of workers.
As for the ergonomics, that was a real part of what I observed at the IUE-Moraine plant. Everything seemed to be positioned and performed in a way to minimize injury from repetition of the job. I can't imagine GM closing the plant rather than building something else there if SUVs fall out of favor.
I still haven't made it to Georgetown. I need to pencil in a date to go there to take their tour. Maybe I can visit the Honda plant in Indiana.
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You should also check out the Toyota plant in Indiana where my Sequoia was built/assembled.
Ergonomics is a fairly recent term applied to our work places in the USA. It is actually about 2500 years old. I guess we are slow learners.
The foundations of the science of ergonomics appear to have been laid within the context of the culture of Ancient Greece. A good deal of evidence indicates that Hellenic civilization in the 5th century BC used ergonomic principles in the design of their tools, jobs, and workplaces. One outstanding example of this can be found in the description Hippocrates gave of how a surgeon's workplace should be designed.
The term ergonomics is derived from the Greek words ergon [work] and nomos [natural laws] and first entered the modern lexicon when Wojciech Jastrzębowski used the word in his 1857 article Rys ergonomji czyli nauki o pracy, opartej na prawdach poczerpniętych z Nauki Przyrody.
That's Princeton and there are not currently tours. Supposedly a visitor center was started in 2007 to be completed in 2008 for those wanting to Tundras, Siennas, and Sequoias, or one thereof, being built by Toyota.
The Suburu Toyota plant also does not have tours.
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Chief Executive Alan Mulally said the new round of buyouts was negotiated with the United Auto Workers union. In addition, Ford plans to continue to reduce its salaried work force this year, mostly through attrition."
Ford Expands Buyout, Early Retirement Offers to Cut Labor Costs (Yahoo)
-Rocky
Think of it this way. Wonder if the Detroit Lions had to keep the players till they were ready to retire. They would lose their competitive edge, if they had one to start with. Even Joe Montana had to go eventually.
The total labor cost of a new vehicle produced in the United States is about $2,400,2 which includes direct, indirect and salaried labor for engines, stamping and assembly at the automakers’ plants.
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
-Rocky
"We knew what we were doing when we went into it, but we also recognized that the companies did need help," he said.
Ford may replace workers taking the buyouts with workers who would be paid $14.20 per hour, or about half the wages of a current worker. "
rocky: yes, you have skilled labor...but since all the new auto plants have set up down here, you folks up there obviously have NO SKILLS that cannot be taught to one of the dumb, Southern rednecks that you think we are...we make the same products, so any advantage you think you have in your skilled labor is a myth...and our products are selling...
In order to stay licensed I must belong to the Georgia Bar Association, where I pay my dues...however, I REFUSE to belong the the ABA, as they are anti-gun, ultra liberal, anti-death penalty and basically are captive to the radical left wing of the Democratic party...they call me every year, and every year I tell them why I will never join...
imidaz: I have often thought that laws should be writtten in plain English by regular people, but what do I know???...since things like property law and deeds comes descended from a few hundred years ago, it may be hard for "civilians" to write laws in plain language...take, for instance, transferring property to the next generation but maintaining a life estate until you die...legalese seems to work simply because some aspects of law are more complex than "me give this to you"...how do you handle trusts, wills, etc???
Instead of Dewey, Cheatem and Howe, I have joined the firm of Robb, Steele and Cheatem...better pay...
I am sure that Northern lawyers probably do have a higher hourly rate than us lowly, ignorant redneck lawyers...
Who and waht did I miss???
Oh, and whoever thought I might be offended by what was said...do you really think I could become a lawyer and not have a tough skin to tolerate your childish ranting???...puhleez...
BRAVO, It sounds like you are one of the few rare ones that did not get sucked into that ignorance.
I have often thought that laws should be writtten in plain English by regular people,
We just had our trust done. It is close to one inch thick. I got blurry eyed going over all of it. It is mostly done to keep us common folk from meddling in things of the law...
Our Union contract was only 41 pages. I could quote it from front to back. Makes it easier when filing a grievance. It also heads off frivolous complaints by the whiners in the crew.
Good Post!
Wasn't one of the auto companies having trouble with quality and assembly from a plant in the South? Alabama?
> as they are anti-gun, ultra liberal, anti-death penalty and basically are captive to the radical left wing of the Democratic party...
I like you even more now that you said that. The description could be of actual philosophy of one of the candidates for President.
>lowly, ignorant redneck lawyers
I read in the Dayton Daily Nothing today that union membership increased last year in the US.
Union membership up 1 pt.
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LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is freakin priceless.
The MB plant down in Alabama had teething pains (blamed more on their local suppliers), but the Nissan factory in Canton MS has the worst reputation I think.
I just happen to have a book about Tupelo in my bookshelf - that's near where Toyota is building their new factory. The newspaper there editorialized back in the late 30's against the industrialists, accusing them of betraying Mississippi workers by luring "starvation-wage outfits there under the guise of progress." Workers weren't organized into unions but they still managed to strike.
Next thing you know, the national guard shows up in the field next to the struck cotton mill to "practice." The workers took to the field, chased the guard off and proceeded to join the CIO. The strike was abandoned after a couple of weeks.
Then the war came, TVA arrived and more manufacturing jobs replaced the farm jobs that had been disappearing for years. The publisher of the paper kept preaching "we don't want to be the dumping ground for labor exploiters.... Selling her people short is the poorest practice ever engaged in by the South."
The publisher was reviled by the business folk before WWII for inciting the labor strikes but after the war they formed a Chamber of Commerce and made him president. In spite of all their economic development efforts, I think people are still lured away to the much bigger cities of Memphis and Atlanta.
I think we should offshore legal knowledge to India. No reason people in Bangalore can't deciper the intentionally nebulous legalese and provide service at 10% the cost.
It's already a $163 billion dollar industry. :shades:
"The time difference between India and the United States allows for work to be done overnight, and many people in India's enormous workforce are college-educated and English-speaking." Legal Affairs
Hey, I have no problem if you want boilerplate work done by a discount lawyer...if you knew how many folks break down in tears when we discuss bankruptcy, you would understand that this is a face-to-face part of law, and I do not believe that someone from India over the phone, or webcam, can offer the same level of service that I do...but, if the UAW (ON TOPIC!!!) has to compete with nonunion labor, I can compete with India lawyers...after all, fair is fair!!!!!
gagrice: I will bet that your trust could have been done in 10 pages...I recently saw a 50 page will and all it did on the TWO pages that mattered was spilt up the lady's estate among 4 children 30%, 30%, 20%, 20%...for what she paid for that will, I would have filed a bar complaint and had the attorney disciplined...
I believe that Mercedes built the original ML SUVs in Alabama, and di have troubles...but, I also believe that the E series built in Germany has also had a quality decline in the last 7 years, if you believe the posts here on Edmunds...
Two things for Rocky: 1) Read this issue of Forbes and look for Jerry Flint's column...he lambasts Chrysler management for their lousy cars, and, I believe that labor is never even mentioned once...ought to make rocky's day...
2) If I remember history correctly, many of those "skilled workers" that you claim you have are actually displaced Southerners who migrated up north simply because the wages were better for the unskilled labor they performed...so many of YOUR workers are the former Southerners that you think are the ignorant rednecks...sorry, pal, once again your youth and lack of understanding of history prior to Bill Clinton will always come back and bite you in the ***********...
Most of the trust is disclaimers. Also health directives and we have different heirs. Plus different dispersal depending on who dies first. It is a bit complicated by my wife's trust that we folded into our trust.
Has anyone read how the buyouts are going at Ford?
I was inhaling coffee on that one and almost sprayed it over my laptop when I started laughing.
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Marsha, you make a good point.
My grandpa was born in Tennessee and he moved up north to Gary, Indiana when he was 18 yrs old to worked 43 years as a union steel worker. He wasn't the dumb "hick" Rocky describes southerners.
But I guess since Indiana is south of Michigan, everyone in Indiana are stupid hicks too.
I've lived in 6 different states and I can attest that stupid is found every where.
I just read in yesterdays paper that Ford offered buyouts to another 35000 workers...(also about 10K salaried workers, IIRC)
For once, this will NOT be a union bashing post, but a simple acknowledgement of the obvious...if they can dump, thru buyouts, over 50,000 workers, doesn't that truly mean that they have been overstaffed by billions of dollars of payroll for decades???
Even if you are the President of the UAW, can't you be intellectually honest and admit that Ford (and GM and Chrysler) had thousands of workers being paid to do nothing, if they can eliminate them and still make the cars???...
Lat's make it even simpler...if you have 100 people making cars, and you lose 50 and can still make the same amount of cars, wouldn't ANY logical person, and even rocky, admit that the 50 extra workers were simply a drag on company profits because they were never needed???...how can anyone justify "keeping those jobs:" when any semi-intelligent person can see that they are simply overstaffed???...so, when some Presidential candidate says that "they will bring the jobs back" can anybody actually believe that when no one can force anyone to buy a Big 3 product, and, even if they could, since they don;t need that many people to make the cars, just where does anyone expect the "employment" to come from???
Employment of whom???...to do what???...the days of featherbedding are over, they will hire what they need and no more...in the 50s and 60s and 70s Michigan had mass in-migration for the jobs...
Last year there was an net out-migration of about 65,000 people...rest assured, it will only increase overtime as the displaced either sell their homes (to whom???) or walk away and file Chapter 7...
The artifically created glory days of Michigan are dead and over and will never return...it is simply part of the cycle that cannot be stopped, and there are no jobs, at least in any mass scale, that will return to Michigan...yet, still, the Mich gov't has higher taxes and more regulations on business and is too stupid to try and hold onto anything they can...
I would guess the plan is to hire folks at the lower wage to replace the aging workers that take the buyout. That will save nearly half. Though they will be paying retirement.
Finally, the Ford Verve, based on the Mazda2 platform, is in the works. Ding-ding-ding-ding...Bob, I think we have a winner!
Tell them what they've won, Bob, on our fun American game show!
A new car!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Because some believe the company should only exist to provide jobs and that profits only feed greedy management and shareholders.
Umm...no, your original statement suggests the UAW is overstaffed by 50% and that they can build the same amount of vehicles if they eliminate 50% of their workforce. That's not even close to what you backpedaled on in this last message.
Lat's make it even simpler...if you have 100 people making cars, and you lose 50 and can still make the same amount of cars, wouldn't ANY logical person, and even rocky, admit that the 50 extra workers were simply a drag on company profits because they were never needed???...
Have you ever heard of the Harbour Report? It is a measure of how many hours per vehicle (HPV) is required to build a product. Whether a worker is installing seats directly into the vehicle, doing a sub assembly job offline, or an inspector running tests in another part of the facility they all count toward the manpower hours needed to get the final product out the door.
Look up the latest figures and then come back and show me where ANY of the Big Three takes twice as many manhours to build a vehicle as it does ANY foreign car plant.
And if you want to talk about things before the Clinton era, I'm all ready. I'm old enough to belong to AARP and I've been a UAW member for over 24 years and counting.
Tell us about this jobs bank deal. Workers actually get paid to sit around and pick their nose and watch 'The Price is Right?' Since they've loyally paid their union dues and there is no real work for them they have "earned" the UAW right to sit there and eat raspberry jelly donuts and drink fine 'Seattle's Best' coffee and watch the bucks roll in. Doesn't that sound a tad retarded to y'all?
Oh, silly me. It's only a "temporary" thing. Eldon will be back in his "real" UAW job as soon as Joe takes a vacation and opens up a spot. Does this even start sounding overly spendful to you? Yikes. Gotta build us some more oversized, over-priced GM vehicles that the loyalists will slather up with quite some favor. Talk about the royal automotive treatment. This is only some of the twisted, money-losing thinking that has made things overly tough on those called upon to "save" the domestic manufacturers.
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I have 21 years in the car biz... selling them and now in the service dept....I went to the service dept. is because the sale dept was and is going under.... :confuse: :mad:
Oh, I'm not sure if she's an attorney or not. County commissioner, new last couple of years. Prior city commissioner for small town in county. Husband is attorney and Democrat Party Chairman. Judge is elected in a city court in north end of county. She is an attorney (obviously). Her husband is prosecuting attorney for many, many years after his father was prosecuting attorney for county. Oh, they live about 1-1.5 miles from each other. Husband called judge to make sure she knew about wife being on docket?
Some humor is she told the State Patrol office twice that she was a county commissioner. He thanked her for her service!!!! :P
She told him she had been at a function with the governor that evening. Lie. The lieutenant governor had been at a function.
Hmmmm. Is that protecting someone?
One of the newspaper articles has some pretty straight forward blog posts after it.
Arrest Video
Photos
Arrest
Husband call to judge did not seek favor
Judge says no special treatment
If the daytondailynews.com requests a login, check at bugmenot.com for a login that works... or do a quick login with simple answers to the questions and it lets you into the info.
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