United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

gagrice

I'm not clear about your point with the average value of houses in Smyrna, TN compared to that in Canton

I was going by Zillow estimates of average homes in the two towns. I think the wages at Nissan Canton are in line with the cost of housing. I don't believe a factory job is an upper middle class job as it was in the hey day of the UAW. For those high paying jobs to return the Feds will have to place tariffs on ALL foreign goods and boot out the illegals that are killing the wages in the trades.

Smyrna TN is a higher cost of living than the rest of the TN: The housing in Smyrna looks to be about 45% higher than Canton. I think they would be crazy to take a chance with the UAW.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Smyrna-Tennessee.html

http://www.city-data.com/city/Canton-Mississippi.html

imidazol97

A better comparison would be the county housing data. Rutherford CTY for Nissan TN. The plants draw employees are a larger area than Smyrna and La Vergne cities. Smyrna was lucky enough to get the tax base, what wasn't forgiven by the deal, but employees come from much further.

stever

I looked at cost of living stuff a while back when Bob/Marsha7 was talking about his property taxes down toward Atlanta. TN is relatively cheap compared to neighboring states, at least with the tax burden.

gagrice

I think TN is a bit higher than KY. Though you have to look at individual cities/counties for property taxes. TN has some favorable places to retire. I don't think there is a good place to find factory jobs today. The UAW will become irrelevant when the older guys retire and the majority of the workers are making $15 per hour. Look what GM employees are paying annual dues. I would look for a move to de-certify the UAW, if I was a bottom dweller in that unit. GM workers are paying nearly 3 times the average dues. :sick:

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/view.additional-resource.php?resourceID=2139

stever

I think TN is a bit higher than KY.

I was looking at Southern states, not border states. :P

imidazol97

TN is the place for high income retirees to retire. Or just the 1%ers like Gore--NO PERSONAL INCOME TAX.

However, they had to pass a sales tax on the worker bees which is like 8-10%. I'm not clear on how much it is because it varies with the type of items purchased, IIRC. But I know buying something there makes me say "Ouch" at the amount of sales tax because it's essentially 10%. Maybe that's the restaurant rate for Murfreesboro...

And don't go to a vacation area like Sevierville-Pigeon Forge-Gatlinburg. There it's extra high.

imidazol97

The UAW dues also include a strike fund and subsidy during strikes. Does it include a subsidy when the worker is laid off from the plant?

Thanks for that reference on the amounts, Gagrice. I'd always wondered. The dues for UAW are actually not high as I expected.

stever

I started avoiding Gatlinburg back in 1973 - Tellico Plains is the fun part of the Smokies.

Here's another dues link, straight from the UAW.

UAW

UAW strike benefits are $200 a week plus medical-hospital and life insurance coverage.

tlong

What are votes worth when the top few own both parties, and control virtually every social and corporate special interest group? What difference does a vote make when the same few win no matter the election result? What changed with the last election, and what will change with the next? Votes, seriously?

The point that you did not seem to understand is that whether the UAW or other politicians, in a democratic process it still requires a majority of votes to win. And if you are a 1%'er, whether a UAW kingpin or a political candidate, you need those votes. So who do you turn to? The 49% who are productive and generally responsible and educated? Or the less educated, statistically more "sway-able" and lower educated masses? And what do many of these people thrive on? Dreams of wealth that they'll probably never attain, free services, protection from poverty and poor decision-making. Yes, votes.

tlong

...Airbus is rumored to be announcing a US assembly plant in Alabama next week.

The right to work states seem to be doing pretty well and attracting a lot of business. BMW in Spartansburg is the largest volume auto plant in the US and produces for domestic and export markets. Mercedes is in Alabama so is Hyundai. Nissan is in Tennessee and so is VW in Chattanooga specifically. Freightliner is in North Carolina and owned by Daimler. Michelin is in South Carolina. Honda is in Alabama, Ohio, Indiana, . Toyota is in Mississippi, West Virginia, Kentucky, Texas, and Indiana. Volvo Trucks has 1.6 million square feet in Virginia.

How's that compare to the growth in the UAW stronghold states? A lot better, I suspect.

fintail

And the votes do not matter when the same interests win no matter who is in office, as both sides are controlled by the same forces. Votes are functionally irrelevant. Democratic process? How can that be so when the choices are virtually predetermined with no risk being had by the top few? This aint no democracy, it's a corporatist oligarchy with ever-growing fascist overtones.

It's not that 49% I see who seem to have dancing dreams of future tycoon status. It's those with a little education and very impressionable ideals who believe they are the next Gates or Jobs.

"free services, protection from poverty and poor decision-making."

Which seem to be fine with no work, if one is born lucky.

I am not a layabout or an illegal, nor a 1%er traitor, what can either side offer me? Or you? Nothing.

fintail

Pay for no amenities and have a less than developed world structure, and the costs of existence are lower.

Through it all in the past 40 or so years, the private sector union world has pretty much died off...yet it's hard to argue anything is really better for the average worker. Unions were born out of 1%er greed, helped for awhile, then became corrupt, are dying off/have died off, and a pendulum swings back.

gagrice

the private sector union world has pretty much died off.

While the public sector Unions have ballooned out. I think you can lay the lowering of our standard of living directly on our trade agreements that are not really fair. If they were fair we would insist on environmental and human rights be equal. And that you cannot blame entirely on the greed of corporatist. If one company sends their manufacturing to a cheaper state or country, what choice do the competitors have?

Environmentalist have blocked mining our resources that are needed for most of the green energy stuff. China helped the process by manipulating currency. It was no longer worth the hassle in most cases to keep mining here. Now we are held captive to China. Lots of people involved in that. The bottom line it is the Federal Government that makes the rules. Corporate lobbying is not a valid excuse for making poor trade agreements.

And speaking of the idiots running the UAW. They backed Obama on the latest trade agreement with Korea. How stupid is that? They deserve to lose jobs on the $3 billion in parts Government Motors will now be getting from Korea.

fintail

I guess all that begs the question - do corporations own politics, or do politics own corporations? I will argue for the former. Lobbying in a way is a sham, why lobby what you own? To hide the fact.

If we had real agreements, en masse offshoring simply wouldn't be allowed to happen - along with the other issues you mention. China rising isn't an accident.

The Korea agreement is silly for the UAW to be behind - amazing what we have done for South Korea over the years, how we allow their subsidized and currency manipulated products free reign, and now this. Who makes it happen?

gagrice

I guess all that begs the question - do corporations own politics, or do politics own corporations?

Sadly our politicians for the most part are bought off by any number of entities. To me that makes the politician the evil one. If you can be bought you have no moral code of ethics. You are a Congressional vote for hire to the highest bidder. A whore is a better term to describe anyone in politics that can be bought. If I buy a politician, I am just doing business as usual. As a banker or corporatist I want things to go my way. If I can buy a politician to make sure they do, that is capitalism. I don't blame the buyer. I blame the one that sells their influence that is entrusted to the voters.

lemko

...Budd Built Them:

Last Runs for SEPTA Silverliner II and III Rail Cars

I doubt very much those Hyundai-Rotem cars will last remotely as long as those old Budd Silverliners. We once built such awesome things in Philly!

lemko

Wasn't Canton once home of a huge Hoover plant that was closed and moved to some god-forsaken third-world toilet?

lemko

For those high paying jobs to return the Feds will have to place tariffs on ALL foreign goods and boot out the illegals that are killing the wages in the trades.

WELL, WHAT'S TAKING THEM SO LONG?

stever

There's going to be a lot of high paying law enforcement jobs if you try to ship ~12 million people out of the country. Shouldn't cost much more than $137.5 billion dollars. (seatoshiningsea.wordpress.com)

Maybe the UAW can organize Pinkerton's and the feds can farm out that job.

gagrice

You should buy one before they are all scrapped out. Make a real conversation piece in your front yard. I wanted to buy an old Caboose. Just could not convince my wife it would look good in the front yard. It is now a coffee shop and they painted it up real nice. Old railroad stuff is great to collect. At least the new cars are being built in PA. Are they a union shop?

gagrice

Maybe the UAW can organize Pinkerton's and the feds can farm out that job.

Hire mercenaries to hunt down illegals and their kids and deposit them across their border. Cut out all welfare to illegals whether they were born here or not. Match the laws to the illegal that are enforced in the country they came from.

You would think the UAW would be willing to do something as it is the illegals along with unfair trade agreements, that have made Union jobs rare as hen's teeth.

gagrice

The article says it best. Spend the $5 billion on securing our border. Then when the jobs dry up and we cut off the housing, food stamps and medicare, the illegals will head home. We can get most of that $5 billion back by enforcing the IRS rules that is sending $4.2 billion to tax filers stealing from the the rest of US.

This Memorandum is a follow-up to the November, 2010, Memorandum “Child Tax Credits for Illegal Immigrants.”1 It highlights new information contained in a report of the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) dated July 7, 2011, entitled “Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits.”2 The $4.2 billion is entirely the product of the Additional Child Tax Credit (ACTC) for the 2010 tax processing year.

http://www.cis.org/child-tax-credits-2011

stever

when the jobs dry up

The bosses will love that. No cheap labor and a lot of paperwork dealing with the regulations. Bosses - you know, the ones who hire UAW types, unless someone without documentation will work cheaper. Follow the money; the immigrants do. They'll follow the railroad builders right back to Mexico. :P

lemko

They already sold them to a Newark scrap dealer for a mere $2,300 each - not even 1% of their replacement cost. I'm sure my neighbors would be happy with me having an old SEPTA car on my lawn! :P

The Hyundai-Rotem plant is a non-union shop using relatively low-paid, unskilled labor - not like the old Budd plants where the workers were true artisans.

lemko

Believe me, there are plenty of people who would love to hunt down illegals like they were game animals for free or even pay for the opportunity. I'm surprised it isn't already happening. A lot of illegals trespass on private property that is part of massive ranches.

gagrice

The Hyundai-Rotem plant is a non-union shop using relatively low-paid, unskilled labor - not like the old Budd plants where the workers were true artisans.

That is progress. The buggy makers 100 years ago were artists as well. Not much call for them except in Amish country. And the buggies today look rather drab compared to the old ones. You do not need artists with automated equipment that stamps out the parts to much closer tolerance than the most skilled union labor of old. That is the reason UAW workers are no longer worth $30 per hour. In a modern factory the machines do the heavy work and the workers are just there to make sure all goes together well. Unless of course you are in a GM factory where they are still using WW2 machinery.

gagrice

A lot of illegals trespass on private property that is part of massive ranches.

The ranch my wife sold is a thoroughfare for illegals. The new owners have rounded up as many 30 illegals at one time and called the Border patrol to pick them up. They kill the chickens and eat them as well as goats. They believe "Everything's Free in America" :sick:

They don't put up a fight with someone holding a firearm. They know that they will be dumped across the border and can cross back over that night. It has slowed down a lot the last couple years.

stever

Maybe they figure another 1,000 new workers will dampen any UAW enthusiasm.

Nissan to add 1,000 jobs at Miss. plant (Detroit News)

fintail

In many ways, just progress on a timeline. Some of that is possible...if you work for an automaker with competent management who has retained engineering and design sound enough to keep high profit margins, which permits a well-paid workforce. Such locations have less executive/worker discrepancies, too.

fintail

Nah, we need to use money giving incentives to traitors who send work offshore, or who run to slimy irresponsible parasitic tax havens. It's capitalism and all that.

gagrice

Man is no different than he was in the days of the Pharaohs. Work those under you as hard as you can for as little as you can, to build an empire. Every man if given a chance will do the same thing. Whether you are owner of a restaurant, President of the UAW or president of the USA. Exceptions to the rule are far less than 1%. Really has little to do with capitalism, and everything to do with human nature.

fintail

My capitalism remark was sarcastic, seeing as in 2012, we don't really have capitalism, but reversed socialism.

And eventually, in virtually all empires, a top few got out of control, and heads rolled. Human nature is a pretty sad excuse for shortsighted greed, whether it be a lazy UAW executive or a smarmy self-titled "job creator".

lemko

SEPTA to Scrap the Last Silverliner II

Alas, even Budd itself no longer exists but as a wispy memory. I remember the massive Budd plant on Red Lion Road in NE Philly. The huge plant on Hunting Park Avenue in North Philly's Nicetown neighborhood still stands abandoned. It makes me sad to think that my Dad's generation and part of mine will probably be the last to manufacture such awesome things as railcars in this country.

gagrice

I lost interest in the railroads long before 1963. By that time they had ruined them with diesel electrics. My buddy and I jumped on a slow moving freight when I was about 13. We went for a couple miles and jumped off and hiked home. We wanted to be hobos. That was close to the end of the Steam era. Railroads were not the same after the steam engines. They were a thing of beauty in motion. PA is lucky that Hyundai decided to assemble the next generation of rail car in the State. PA is not what you would call the best place to start a business. It would have been better if SEPTA authorities had insisted on 100% Made in USA rail cars. That is what is killing the Unions and middle class workers. Unskilled parts assemblers are all that is needed.

http://www.thumbtack.com/survey

marsha7

"The Hyundai-Rotem plant is a non-union shop using relatively low-paid, unskilled labor - not like the old Budd plants where the workers were true artisans."

Were they true artisans, or just more union hacks making RR cars instead of passenger cars??? :confuse: :shades:

lemko

No, they were true artisans and metal craftsmen. Those Silverliner II cars were built in 1963 in the Red Lion Road Budd plant in NE Philadelphia and are still on the rails today. I doubt very much those Hyundai-Rotem cars will last remotely as long. SEPTA is already having problems with these defect-laden cars: doors that won't close properly, electrical gremlins galore, etc. The old Budd workers would never let a railcar leave the factory like that.

imidazol97

> SEPTA is already having problems with these defect-laden cars: doors that won't close properly, electrical gremlins galore, etc.

And those are not necessarily the fault of the workers. They can only use the materials and specifications supplied by the beancounters and the engineers. And the attorneys specify they can do minimum and get by with it legally if sued for damages...

Same quality thing that happened to certain GM products in some cases--they started using the Korean (Hyundai/Kia/toy/Honda) mimimum spec techniques and then things don't last in the real world like we would hope.

I saw a display of a particular auto part from various manufacturers torn down. The minimum amount of materials used for certain parts within the auto item was appalling from some companies. No wonder those car companies have continual problems through the decade with their parts.

gagrice

Keith, glad to see you are a storm survivor. I wondered about you when the devastation in some parts of Ohio were shown.

I think we are seeing a dumbing down of quality by all the auto makers. To keep the prices low. It is hard to blame a worker for installing a part the automaker gets from Korea or China when it fails. I don't think there is a 100% USA made vehicle today. Last I checked the Ford Explorer is 85% along with a couple models from HonToy.

imidazol97

Thanks for thinking about our area and the storms. There are many without power in our metro and rural area; we have underground lines. Our feeder line went out during Hurricane Ike but was repaired about 12 horus later.

Our son is just off campus in Columbus in an older, upscale housing area with lots of old trees. While many of the units are apartments because of OSU, there are many people living in expensive, small and large homes with huge amounts of tree damage in that quadrant of Columbus. AEP estimates July 7 for having all power back on for that quadrant. Lots of suffering. AND the bus union went on strike at 3 am this morning. Many people had cars damaged by falling timber. The union had several hefty pay raises in recent years. I caught the number 9% on a radio talk show that I tune in from Columbus.

Instead of Obama trying to earn points by declaring Ohio a disaster area, he needs to tell his donor union to get back to work and shut up.

Because so many states have been hit by major outages, the trucks that come in from other power companies are being spread around over many states. Ordinarily, a huge number would be working in one area to get everyone connected again.

Maybe Obama could have the UAW workers come in and help.

stever

I thought they were all out in Colorado fighting fires.

My sister lost a big chunk of a ~120 year old walnut tree back in NW Virginia and she's just sick about it. No power in her area of rural Shenandoah County, although the outages are spotty.

The UAW's agreement to share profits instead of raising wages is affecting Canadian autoworkers.

CAW under pressure to consider the unthinkable: Profit sharing (Detroit Free Press)

marsha7

fact that I can't blame this on the UAW... ...last week the power window switch on my Crown Vic went bad for the second time...all the windows would work except the contact made for the driver's window was bad, so it would go down but not up...

The factory one lasted 6 years, this Ford replacement lasted only 2 years...when I spoke to the technician, he jokingly said it was probably made in Mexico...we looked at the box...

You guessed it...it said "Made in Mexico"...I wanted to blame those union boys so much, but this was not their fault...unless the UAW has signed up Mexicans in Mexico...

gagrice

And the Unions wonder why the voters are electing people like Walker in Wisconsin. Are these union people brain dead? If they were making minimum wage with no benefits they would have a good reason to strike. Trying to hurt the working classes by going on strike is immoral in my opinion. A bus strike does not hurt the wealthy 1% in the least. It is the poor dishwasher and waitresses that will not get paid if they have no way to get to work. People making a fraction of what a city bus driver makes. I look for more and more ballot measures limiting the power of Public employee unions.

gagrice

There are unions in Mexico that make the UAW look mild. You lay off a Union waiter in Mexico and you pay him a years salary. That from a Canadian friend that has a restaurant in Puerto Vallarta. I got to know a waiter in Mazatlan pretty well on one of my 3 week stays there. He put his 3 sons through college on his waiters pay and tips. And his wife does not work. He does not live in a McMansion or have a car. Walks to work and they use the bus to go shopping downtown. I sometimes wonder about a lot of the nice folks I met on my many trips to Mexico. NAFTA and the drug trade has made a mess of the country.

imidazol97

>My sister lost a big chunk of a ~120 year old walnut tree back in NW Virginia and she's just sick about it. No power in her area of rural Shenandoah County

Sorry to hear about the grand old tree. I value the old stands.

She's probably going to be without power for a while. During Ike here in Ohio, rural areas 10 miles from us were up to 14 days without power. Just too many small breaks from old trees not kept pruned by owners or by the electric company. Either man does the pruning or mother nature does it with ice or snow or wind along with the weight of rain on the leaves.

stever

Naturally the people on the other side of the road have power.

Must be a union shop on that side. :P

imidazol97

>http://www.freep.com/article/20120701/BUSINESS01/207010462/CAW-under-pressure-co- nsider-unthinkable-Profit-sharing

I keep having trouble with the UAW keeping the old wage tier for over-priced, over-benefitted workers while the new ones get by on much less.
It's not a job requiring a college degree nor using the skills concurrent with a well-developed mind from acquiring such.

Profit sharing seems like a solution to part of the cost problem: the other is to retire the over-paid geezers and let them collect social security disability like so many have done.

Kirstie_H

There are unions in Mexico that make the UAW look mild. You lay off a Union waiter in Mexico and you pay him a years salary.

I've heard of similar employment laws elsewhere... somewhere in Europe, it escapes me right now. But what it does is dampen employment. Companies are VERY conservative in hiring because the penalty for firing is too great.

gagrice

If I am a business owner faced with that sort of labor issue, I will make sure I am getting the best person for the job. I got a feeling Mexican owners are given more slack than foreign owners.

I also consider the UAW two tier wage a BIG mistake. I know I would be working half as hard once I got past probation period. Make the UAW earn their over the top dues. The way the BK was handled made the mess. All UAW contracts should have been trashed and start over with all employees treated equal.

fintail

Like gagrice says, it also might give employers an incentive to actually hire the best people - which IMO is often not the case here.

In Europe, they can afford higher unemployment (and IMO are more honest about their numbers than we) because they can divert the monies wasted by us on policeman of the world/pointless foreign aid/pity the rich tax policies, and use it to actually help their people.

lemko

I must have a problem with Mexican-made windshield wiper motors in my Grand Marquis. The original lasted seven years and I recently went through three more motors since March unitl the problem was, (hopefully) solved. I get nervous on rainy days and hope the Rain-X is good enough!