Most of us who owned Fiats in the past are now dead, so can't testify.
Not me. I bought my son a Fiat Spyder. I cannot tell you how many $1000s I spent keeping that POC Found In A Toilet running. I was not too excited when the Feds gave Fiat Chrysler. So far he has not been the same disaster my experience was. It was a 1970s model And even in the mid 1980s parts were only available at one specialty wrecking yard. I shudder thinking about it.
Nope, but at least as much luck as work. Unlike some brave bootstrappers who built it all themselves, I can admit it. And I am sure it will all be even better with more offshoring, more middle managers, more consultants, zero taxes, etc.
No i don't think the X1/9 burst into flames. A car has to be running to burst into flames...unless of course it's in the garage and your house is burning down. At which time most Fiat owners would rather choose to save the dog.
Famous "flamers" that I recall were most Lotuses of the period and the Jaguar XJ-12 sedans.
Well if all former Fiat owners are not, in fact, dead, they are probably too old to care.
Sometimes it's the other way around - there were a few reports a while back of BMWs catching fire and burning garages and houses down. Even had one post like that on our forums:
It looks to me like the UAW needs the cash more than Fiat needs 100% ownership. Who will win the poker game. The UAW's VEBA needs cash to pay for retiree HC benefits. They cannot use the cash they got from GM and Ford for Chrysler retirees. And you can't spend the 41.5% interest in Chrysler. If GM bought off the UAW for $3.2B it would seem that Fiat would not want to pay more. Chrysler is doing ok, but not as well as last year. So who's going to buy the new stock?
If GM bought off the UAW for $3.2B it would seem that Fiat would not want to pay more.
As I said before, analysts value the company at $10-12 billion. FIAT is low balling the union.
IMHO, this will never reach an actual IPO because FIAT needs Chrysler in order to support their European business and the expansion of the FIAT and Alfa brands into North America.
If someone said you owned 40% of a $100 bill, would you accept $32 for it?
If someone said you owned 40% of a $100 bill, would you accept $32 for it?
It would depend on how much I needed the cash. The UAW needs cash. Their 41.5% is only worth what someone is willing to give them for it. And I understand their wanting to give the IPO route a whirl. What happens as has happened so many times on a new IPO, and it comes right as the market goes into a down slide? There are very knowledgeable people that think the market is due for a large correction when the Fed quits fueling it. I don't see where discounting is all that uncommon. You may have a house worth $500k in a good market. If you are wanting to sell you may take $450k cash. I think the UAW has got themselves in a big pickle with VEBA. Smart Unions like our Teamsters, dumped the lifetime HC benefit over 20 years ago. They could see it was not sustainable and would soon deplete the pension fund. I would split the difference with Fiat and get out of the auto business.
What happens as has happened so many times on a new IPO, and it comes right as the market goes into a down slide?
And many IPO's are done on a upturn. It's all a big gamble anyway.
You may have a house worth $500k in a good market. If you are wanting to sell you may take $450k cash.
You may but you don't have to.
I would split the difference with Fiat and get out of the auto business.
That's what they want to do - just not at a 25% discount.
The fund also wants to diversify it's holdings. They also hold a $4.4 billion Chrysler note that isn't due until 2023. They hold too much Chrysler.
As I've said a couple of times, IMHO it'll never reach a public sale. Marchionne is afraid of having to buy Chrysler stock on the open market and afraid of having FIAT collapse (and be out of a job)....
"A bid by the United Auto Workers union to organize Volkswagen AG's assembly plant in Chattanooga, Tenn., is opposed by more than a quarter of the factory's workers, according to an antiunion group.
Over the past week a group of workers opposed to union representation collected signatures on anti-UAW petitions from 563 colleagues, according to Mike Burton, a paint inspector at the factory who is working to counter the UAW's organizing efforts."
It looks like the UAW is going to have to work to get this one. And they will have to give people a good reason to join if they do get certified. I joined the CWA voluntarily in 1962. I thought they were doing a good job for the workers. I wasn't so sure when they went on strike in 1968. I worked for my uncle and actually made more than I would working.
The UAW only needs 30% of the employees to fill out cards to have an election. However if the Company (VW) gave them access and did not offer to other Unions that is illegal. There are a lot of eyes to dot and tees to cross before the NLRB will sanction an election. Then TN being RTW those that don't want the Union do not have to join. Yet they are entitled to any wages and benefits the Union employees are entitled to. Including a defined Union pension. I am curious how many disgusted UAW members have dropped out of the Michigan and Indiana locals since both passed RTW? Those tiered contracts are a total rip-off for the new workers.
Those tiered contracts are a total rip-off for the new workers.
The UAW in Mississippi is hoping that the workers will see it that way, even though the temps can't vote.
"Many pro-union workers complain that the company does not listen to workers as much as they would like and puts injured workers back on the line too soon. Many are upset that their wages were frozen for five years and that the plant has hired hundreds of temporary workers, many of them starting around $12 an hour. Many experienced workers complain that they are relegated to night shifts because the temporary workers are often given the coveted day shifts."
$12 per hour. Nissan is over paying their workers. That is top dollar around here for many of the trades. All Cash of course so it does not screw up the wife's welfare checks.
Around here it is the Minimum and maximum. You pick up an illegal at Home Depot and he wants a $100 for 8 hours plus lunch. If you hit HD early you will see 20-30 people waiting to work. By 10 Am they are all gone. CA has NO regulations left on hiring illegals. E Verify was outlawed by the Liberal Legislature. To make it easier CA along with WA will issue illegals a driver's license. They have it all except the need to file for income tax or pay into SS/MC. Of course momma has a couple kids born in the USA that are an instant meal ticket to all the goodies the state provides. So if they are paying workers $12 per hour plus any benefits in MS, they are ahead of the game.
Of course, in WA, a drivers license is a joke anyway, judging by what one sees on the roads. So giving it to an illegal might be appropriate in a way.
I see mass immigration as more of the globalized race to the bottom. Dilute the labor pool, kind of like the H1B system, backed by the same old bleeding hearts. That $100/day is probably $40 in the second world south, so they might indeed be ahead.
I can tell you they do quite well on $100 per day. If they have their families here it is a ticket to a much better life than interior Mexico or Guatemala where many come from. Around here when you see a property owner with 8-10 old trailers parked on their property you know they are renting to illegals. And it is a VERY COMMON sight. The county does nothing about it unless they get complaints from the neighbors.
Looks like only AZ and Nebraska believe in the Rule of law. Very sad to me. That is the reason I discouraged my son and daughter in law from moving here. You cannot compete in the building trades against the illegals. They are good workers and very cheap. Most of the jobs they now take were paying $30+ per hour 20 years ago. Trade Unions are all but gone. Only the stinking public employees are making the big bucks.
But we have huge diversity and population growth now, so isn't it all OK? Funny how those who make the rules are the ones still making out like bandits. The decline of unions has really helped the average American too, hallelujah for that.
Perhaps if there are so many workers willing to do the job for $12/hr, then the other workers are overpaid.
That is what supply and demand is all about. Problem when you have Union people with a contract that guarantees them $30 per hour and the competition is only paying $12 per hour, the over paid workers will soon bury their company in red ink. We ran into that situation in the 1980s and took a cut along with the other Unions to avoid non union companies from coming in and taking our work. No one liked it and a few in the other Unions thought we should strike. No one did and we soon regained our wages during the next Alaska boom.
I don't see that happening for those at the bottom of the food chain. As long as the waves of illegals are not stopped there will be more than enough workers that are willing to live at a lower standard to get a job of any kind. Now several states are allowing illegals into college on scholarships. So they will be taking the higher paid jobs for less.
The latter part has already taken place with the various visa programs - and these are for jobs that have never been unionized.
But I guess if smarmy boomers who got theirs during a time of less expense and less competition say that if someone else is willing to do it for less that the existing worker is overpaid, that's the way it is, right? It must really just be that simple.
The race to the bottom is the fault of the Federal Government. They are the largest employers of H-1Bs. Now they have hired a Canadian company to fix the Obamacare registration system. I agree with Bill Clinton. We don't have the qualified people we need for the 3 million jobs available in the USA.
That "qualified" stuff sounds like the lies told by local H1B supporters. Seems part of the qualifications are either the ability to work for second world wages, or to already have sometimes debatable skills that employers taught employees in the past, when those who got theirs and now tell others to go pound sand were able to ascend.
I have a neighbor who works for a large tech company. Besides taking away American jobs and lowering wages, he believes there is another big downside to H1B that is starting to come out; many of these foreign engineers and programmers aren't really as proficient as students who came out of the big US universities. Apparently there is huge disparity in places like India and China between the quality of their different universities.
As there is a lot of that in my area, I hear about it a lot. As not to offend the oversensitive, I will just say that from what I have been told, the term "engineer" doesn't mean the same thing everywhere.
"That "qualified" stuff sounds like the lies told by local H1B supporters."
Yep, it sure is. Anyone can write a job description in such a way maybe only a handful of people in the country would meet all of the requirements, especially at the low-ball wages they are advertising. Then when there are no takers, the employer comes back and says "see, can't get any qualified applicants with security enhanced LINUX experience and a background in vending machines, so we need to an H1B Visa to be able to hire a non-US citizen."
I've see job descriptions for graphic designers asking for proficiency with every application under the sun and umpteen years of experience that pay less then the receptionist's wage.
That's exactly the strategy I have heard is used by local visa supporters. Or, they simply say they have a huge number of positions and there aren't enough "qualified" (cough) applicants - then when hiring time comes, less positions are filled.
"A few days after Volkswagen employees who oppose the United Auto Workers union turned in more than 500 petitions to local management, VW AG Works Council Chairman Bernd Osterloh said he will continue talking with UAW leaders.
Some VW leaders in Germany want the local plant to be a part of their works council system. It’s currently the only plant out of about 100 around the world that operates outside that system.
And the UAW has used that as a chance to represent local workers.
But, because the National Labor Relations Act forbids companies to have an internal union, organizing the local plant can’t be done exactly like the German model."
I like the worker council idea but changing the NLRB would be a long battle. Right now it's our way or the highway.
Our Unions are mostly founded on adversarial principles. It is the company against the Union. The NLRB is designed to propagate that sort of system. A spirit of working together to make the company the best is not in the UAW mindset. The only reason the UAW has met with VW is to try and get their sleazy foot in the door. If the VW workers want a union which looks doubtful, they would be better off starting their own. Don't take on the bad reputation, debt and baggage attached to the UAW. I would imagine the Feds would fight any sort of Union that was in competition with the UAW. I cannot see why the company would not be able to meet with representatives from the workforce to discuss issues.
Gary, wouldn't (or couldn't) a UAW local in Tenn for VW be a completely new and separate local from say, Spring Hill (GM)?? Therefore, wouldn't they be able to negotiate a separate contract from what other UAW local's negotiate with their employers??? I know some standards may be universal, but when GM opened Spring Hill, it was a totally different mindset on how things were done at Saturn, as opposed to elsewhere.
I am sure that is possible. Our Teamsters local 959 covered just the state of Alaska. We had our own separate Pension Trust and HC trust. Very little affiliation with the Teamsters international until years later. My pension is still from the Alaska only trust. The Trust made some very good investments in CA back in the late 1970s that paid off very well.
It sounds like the biggest obstacle will be the Feds and all their rules. I think a large percentage will refuse to join and cut into the money the UAW has their eyes on.
Saving General Motors from bankruptcy was among President Obama’s most frequently cited achievements when he ran for re-election last year. Democrats everywhere touted the company’s revival as proof of the 2009 bailout’s wisdom. That was then. Now, Obama has quietly released the auto manufacturer from a bailout requirement that it increase its production in the U.S. Instead, GM is spending billions of dollars building up its production capacity in ... China.
compete globally or die---it's a no brainer. Also there's the US suppliers of parts to consider, as well as the relationship between our auto industry and our defense capabilities.
Originally GM was only going to manufacture vehicle in China for China. They are expanding to build vehicles in China for the World market. WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS. Why aren't they expanding in the US to sell to South America instead of China? I did not get the impression GM was building vehicles in China for the US market. Though I would be they will withing the next 5 years. I look for Volt production to be moved to China.
I think the only "chinese" cars you'll see here are the actual Chinese brands. It'll be a slow start and it won't happen anytime soon, but I don't see why Chinese vehicles won't follow in the same footsteps as the Japanese and Korean.
The question is whether it'll be the same type of playing field--back in the 1980s, American cars were so bad that competing against them in the USA home market wasn't as difficult.
I agree with you on that (except cars built there coming here) but who DOES build their cars here for export??
I felt with all the VW's Audi's and Subaru's coming in to Quonset point, RI would have been a perfect place to build them for export back to Europe (take advantage of the dollar vs. euro). But, they don't. Nobody does.
Comments
Not me. I bought my son a Fiat Spyder. I cannot tell you how many $1000s I spent keeping that POC Found In A Toilet running. I was not too excited when the Feds gave Fiat Chrysler. So far he has not been the same disaster my experience was. It was a 1970s model And even in the mid 1980s parts were only available at one specialty wrecking yard. I shudder thinking about it.
It ends with Italians All Together.
Not quite everyone. Owned a Fiat 128-SL back in the mid 70's. Sure, I'll testify.
It's that corrupt system that destroys the middle class that's allowed you to get there!
Wall St. is back to its old habits it seems. The lobbyists gutted all the new regulations. Stay tuned.
Was it Fiat or some other company that made the cute little sports car, the X-1/9?
Did it have a tendency to burst into flames, or is my memory failing me....again???
Famous "flamers" that I recall were most Lotuses of the period and the Jaguar XJ-12 sedans.
Well if all former Fiat owners are not, in fact, dead, they are probably too old to care.
I don't expect a stampede for Chrysler stock.
philax5owner, "BMW X5" #1504, 27 Feb 2012 9:16 am
As I said before, analysts value the company at $10-12 billion. FIAT is low balling the union.
IMHO, this will never reach an actual IPO because FIAT needs Chrysler in order to support their European business and the expansion of the FIAT and Alfa brands into North America.
If someone said you owned 40% of a $100 bill, would you accept $32 for it?
It would depend on how much I needed the cash. The UAW needs cash. Their 41.5% is only worth what someone is willing to give them for it. And I understand their wanting to give the IPO route a whirl. What happens as has happened so many times on a new IPO, and it comes right as the market goes into a down slide? There are very knowledgeable people that think the market is due for a large correction when the Fed quits fueling it. I don't see where discounting is all that uncommon. You may have a house worth $500k in a good market. If you are wanting to sell you may take $450k cash. I think the UAW has got themselves in a big pickle with VEBA. Smart Unions like our Teamsters, dumped the lifetime HC benefit over 20 years ago. They could see it was not sustainable and would soon deplete the pension fund. I would split the difference with Fiat and get out of the auto business.
And many IPO's are done on a upturn. It's all a big gamble anyway.
You may have a house worth $500k in a good market. If you are wanting to sell you may take $450k cash.
You may but you don't have to.
I would split the difference with Fiat and get out of the auto business.
That's what they want to do - just not at a 25% discount.
The fund also wants to diversify it's holdings. They also hold a $4.4 billion Chrysler note that isn't due until 2023. They hold too much Chrysler.
As I've said a couple of times, IMHO it'll never reach a public sale. Marchionne is afraid of having to buy Chrysler stock on the open market and afraid of having FIAT collapse (and be out of a job)....
Over the past week a group of workers opposed to union representation collected signatures on anti-UAW petitions from 563 colleagues, according to Mike Burton, a paint inspector at the factory who is working to counter the UAW's organizing efforts."
VW Workers Submit Anti-UAW Petition to Management (WSJ)
IMHO, it's the anti-union side that is going to have a harder time of it.
The UAW in Mississippi is hoping that the workers will see it that way, even though the temps can't vote.
"Many pro-union workers complain that the company does not listen to workers as much as they would like and puts injured workers back on the line too soon. Many are upset that their wages were frozen for five years and that the plant has hired hundreds of temporary workers, many of them starting around $12 an hour. Many experienced workers complain that they are relegated to night shifts because the temporary workers are often given the coveted day shifts."
At a Nissan Plant in Mississippi, a Battle to Shape the U.A.W.’s Future (NY Times)
Bottom line too many workers for too few jobs.
Isn't the ideal of endless population growth combined with offshoring that the old bleeding hearts have forced on us grand?
$12/hr is not a first world wage for work involving any skill. That's a minimum wage or even less in some truly developed places.
Of course, in WA, a drivers license is a joke anyway, judging by what one sees on the roads. So giving it to an illegal might be appropriate in a way.
I see mass immigration as more of the globalized race to the bottom. Dilute the labor pool, kind of like the H1B system, backed by the same old bleeding hearts. That $100/day is probably $40 in the second world south, so they might indeed be ahead.
Looks like only AZ and Nebraska believe in the Rule of law. Very sad to me. That is the reason I discouraged my son and daughter in law from moving here. You cannot compete in the building trades against the illegals. They are good workers and very cheap. Most of the jobs they now take were paying $30+ per hour 20 years ago. Trade Unions are all but gone. Only the stinking public employees are making the big bucks.
Perhaps if there are so many workers willing to do the job for $12/hr, then the other workers are overpaid.
That is what supply and demand is all about. Problem when you have Union people with a contract that guarantees them $30 per hour and the competition is only paying $12 per hour, the over paid workers will soon bury their company in red ink. We ran into that situation in the 1980s and took a cut along with the other Unions to avoid non union companies from coming in and taking our work. No one liked it and a few in the other Unions thought we should strike. No one did and we soon regained our wages during the next Alaska boom.
I don't see that happening for those at the bottom of the food chain. As long as the waves of illegals are not stopped there will be more than enough workers that are willing to live at a lower standard to get a job of any kind. Now several states are allowing illegals into college on scholarships. So they will be taking the higher paid jobs for less.
But I guess if smarmy boomers who got theirs during a time of less expense and less competition say that if someone else is willing to do it for less that the existing worker is overpaid, that's the way it is, right? It must really just be that simple.
Racing to the bottom, thanks a lot.
That "qualified" stuff sounds like the lies told by local H1B supporters. Seems part of the qualifications are either the ability to work for second world wages, or to already have sometimes debatable skills that employers taught employees in the past, when those who got theirs and now tell others to go pound sand were able to ascend.
Yep, it sure is. Anyone can write a job description in such a way maybe only a handful of people in the country would meet all of the requirements, especially at the low-ball wages they are advertising. Then when there are no takers, the employer comes back and says "see, can't get any qualified applicants with security enhanced LINUX experience and a background in vending machines, so we need to an H1B Visa to be able to hire a non-US citizen."
You're right, it doesn't.
But then again, neither does the term "Doctor".
Must be capitalism or something.
Some VW leaders in Germany want the local plant to be a part of their works council system. It’s currently the only plant out of about 100 around the world that operates outside that system.
And the UAW has used that as a chance to represent local workers.
But, because the National Labor Relations Act forbids companies to have an internal union, organizing the local plant can’t be done exactly like the German model."
Petition Drive Against UAW Yields Support From Nearly 600 Workers (Nooga.com)
The huge differences in manager vs worker relations (and compensation) would make it impossible though, even without the laws.
And you can insert either the union or the company in that cliché.
Our Unions are mostly founded on adversarial principles. It is the company against the Union. The NLRB is designed to propagate that sort of system. A spirit of working together to make the company the best is not in the UAW mindset. The only reason the UAW has met with VW is to try and get their sleazy foot in the door. If the VW workers want a union which looks doubtful, they would be better off starting their own. Don't take on the bad reputation, debt and baggage attached to the UAW. I would imagine the Feds would fight any sort of Union that was in competition with the UAW. I cannot see why the company would not be able to meet with representatives from the workforce to discuss issues.
It sounds like the biggest obstacle will be the Feds and all their rules. I think a large percentage will refuse to join and cut into the money the UAW has their eyes on.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/examiner-editorial-gm-got-bailout-now-ships-jobs-t- o-china/article/2537323
The question is whether it'll be the same type of playing field--back in the 1980s, American cars were so bad that competing against them in the USA home market wasn't as difficult.
Not so now.
I felt with all the VW's Audi's and Subaru's coming in to Quonset point, RI would have been a perfect place to build them for export back to Europe (take advantage of the dollar vs. euro). But, they don't. Nobody does.
I believe there are quite a few cars made here for export. Don't recall the details; I'm sure others know.