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Comments
As two CEOs are led to the guillotine we might hear one whisper to the other, "Gee, you think we should've been more kinder and generous with the former working class?"
I agree with a lot of the sentiment on the manufacturing base and the effect on people's lives but suspect that I'm a great deal more optimistic about our country's ability to adapt and reinvent as necessary.
I would agree with anyone on the proposition that right now is a particularly difficult time.
There are jobs besides the auto industry. The UAW jobs are going, going, gone forever. Been a nice ride if you were one of the fortunate few...
Not as long as "the masses" (haven't heard that phrase since the late 60s!) can still afford the cable feed for their flat-screen TVs.
There will be another breaking point, just like so many times in the past...history does only one thing - it repeats itself.
Try something else...go to any McDonalds or, esp Burger King, they seem to find anyone off the street, nomatter how unpresentable they are...then walk into Chik-Fil-A...apparently Truett Cathy has set up standards, because everyone that works there looks, acts, and SPEAKS normally, no mumbling, no ebonics, all young employees, of all races, look like the next generation of businesspeople who may run the world...Truett has a vision, Burger King does not...
Then, any Caddy would fit the bill!
Regards,
OW
Years ago, I'm talking maybe 30, they opened a McDonald's down here. One high school kid impressed them with his work ethic and basic organizational skills. They kept promoting him unti he owned the place and last I looked three more locations.
NOt everyone can do that but there's a case where both sides saw the potential of the opportunity and grabbed it.
I would be happy as heck if I got a deal from the UAW for a buyout. Then, I can bank the money and make a fresh start for a better job.
There's the challenge. But you have to believe in it.
Regards,
OW
I'm not the sort that could do what that kid did. A large bit of that is beyond my control but I work with what I have and I do OK for myself. When I had the opportunity I refinanced my mortgage from a 30 to a 15. Sure upped my mortgage payment now rather than count on later events to make it up later. But 10 years down the road it's mine with no payment. I have some nice stuff but only within budget.
I don't feel like it's a bad deal. Part of what makes things works is having a couple of utterly dependable cars that are now in high mileage but are paid for. You find ways to make it work.
That mlive article was good. I think our current UAW friends on this board could learn a lot from that. They "said the strike was more about quality of life than about wages. Men were fired for taking the time to wipe the sweat and grease off their faces, he said, and many would urinate and defecate in their pants rather than risk their jobs for a bathroom break." That's quite a distance from the demands of the current UAW.
The perception of the UAW is they are the major problem with the Big 3. While I do not agree it is still what most people think. Here is an example of just what these strikes do to customers.
UAW strikes sting GM dealers
The choice was painful but the mechanics at Roth Chevrolet saw no other option.
They needed rear axle parts to repair a customer's Chevy Suburban SUV. But General Motors Corp., hit by a parts shortage created by a strike at supplier American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., wasn't sending the few axles it had to the repair shop in rural Minnesota.
"We took the rear out of a brand-new, beautiful $58,000 Suburban," said sales manager Mark Pregler, a tone of disbelief still in his voice. "It was the only way to satisfy a need GM couldn't."
This customer and dealer had no part in that strike. Yet it cost them both money. That will leave a lasting impression on them about the UAW. The UAW today is not facing the issues faced by GM workers in 1936-37. Too bad they cannot see that before it is too late.
Then you mention that these countries are planning/plotting these actions. The fact is that here in the states large corporation lobby. They persuade/bribe elected officials to get there agenda. This is not the vision of the people, but rather the greed and aspiration of large multinational corporations. The biggest hoodwink is that globalization is the goal and or aspiration of all the free trading nations of the planet. Also within the last 20 or so years these large corporations have also purchased the media outlets. You can see this in the FOX reporters who had to get protection under the Whistle Blowers Act to expose milk which contained chemicals. That saga goes on, please google it.
The fact that no one can compete is just silly. They have to ship the goods across an ocean and that adds no value whatsoever. In fact it adds cost. It reeks of these powerful multinational handing over jobs to an evil communist totalitarian system. It started with happy meal toys/trinkets and there is no end. Who was that who said "you will sell us the rope to hang you with"?
This reminded some of the union brothers/sisters of the slave days. The master had his house slaves and field slaves. The house slaves felt closer to master. If master was sick, they tended to master and or his family. They might even bear masters offspring. However, come auction day, they was all on the block.
A guy bankrupts every oil business he operates in Midland Texas. He is then elected/qualified to be president of the United States? So therefore we can only assume that large corporations have control of the media markets. Otherwise we would be assuming that the American public or at least a majority of the American public rode on the short bus aka tart cart.
You and others leave out a few facts about the oil business in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Every one was getting into the oil exploration business with the price of oil skyrocketing. When the first Bush venture tanked in 1984 the price was in the toilet. How many oil companies were making money at that time? You will notice the guy that was a big investor that bought up the last venture none other than the very liberal George Soros. The same Soros that said he would spend his billions to make sure Bush did not get re-elected in 2004. Soros did not like his easy going cowboy style.
In 1994 Bush beat out the very popular Ann Richards for governor of Texas. Was re-elected with 69% of the vote in 1998 giving him a very good resume to run for president. Much better than being governor of much smaller states like GA or Arkansas. Didn't Bush cut your taxes in Texas as well?
I don't think he was ever a member of the UAW.
I do agree the packages being given to company executives are insane over the last 20 years. And especially when a company is losing money. I also have no problem sending these white collar criminals to the gallows.
Wildcatter's are entrepreneurs and T Boone Pickens made billions. There is absolutely risk involved in the oil business. To say that outside forces are your reason for failure just stands to reason. Just as outside forces may also make you wealthy. So enough with stating the obvious. This is how capitalism operates and not the welfare for big business as of late.
GW never lowered taxes in Texas. We have never had an income tax in Texas. He did raise taxes for "The Ballpark in Arlington" where he was a minority owner. The office of governor is a figure head in Texas and the Lt governor is the powerful day to day operations. Cheney and company traveled to Texas and planned the run for the White House. These neoconservatives calculated and plotted what is now the silliest vision to rule the world. These neocons were kept in check by Bush Senior prior to Clinton. They assumed that, since America was the clear winner in the cold war and the most powerful nation on the planet, other nations would be bullied into democracy. Hence, were in an enigma in the Middle East by their arrogant miscalculations.
The fastest growing UAW membership is in govt and GW has denied the organization of Homeland Security. He knows whats best for everyone, so GW and company will take care of it. He has absolutely taken care of his Wall Street buddies as never before in history.
Karl Rove is the evil mastermind who has used smear to impose the neocons will on the people. Then one only has to observe the DeLay scandal and the evil players involved to see that this makes Watergate tomfoolery.
I see the odd UAW reference here and there, but many of them have little to do with the auto worker's union.
The truth is that if they keep us in the dark and or ignorant they can do as they please. Lassie Fare (no govt interference) is but good only when the govt works on behalf of the working class. The putting out the best possible product at the lowest price is a thing of the past. Today its about getting the best possible lobbyist to get the govt to bail the latest snake oil business that has gone sour.
Bear Sterns is the poster child for socializing the risk via the govt. Unfortunately it isn't alone. This has become the norm. I say let those firms liquidate and the capitalist evolution take place. This is but the normal Darwinism in the business world. If I had a stupid idea and lost my shirt, would I be ENTITLED to a bail out?
We have had almost eight years of graft and corruption. Not to mention the Bush-isms. So the only lobby of the working class, needs to be heard.
Union PACs are ok as long as they do their job and do not rubber stamp every Democrat that is running. The Democratic party is no more for the Union guy than the Republican party. If the Republicans have been hijacked by the NeoCons the Democrats have been hijacked by the elitist & eco-wienies. I am retired after 37 years in the Alaska Teamsters Union. We had some real debates over PAC spending. I will defend the Union shop as long as they are providing good qualified workers to the employers. When they start protecting incompetent workers I am going to vote on the side of the company. I sat on too many E board sessions where we protected people that should have been fired. That is not good for the Unions and the average Americans perception of Union workers. I think the UAW in the eyes of Joe six pack is a bunch of over paid losers. We all know there are great people and there are not so great people in every Union. If the Unions are to survive in the USA they need to shape up from within. Nothing the Union or the government can do about over paid executives. That is up to the board members. We all know that is part of the good ole boy club which includes our US Congress and most state legislators.
Andy Carnegie was a swell fella in that he made great contributions to society with the money he made from those who sweat-ed blood at the steel mill. I'm amazed at the way people idolize the wealthy and look down on the poor. I can't respect rich wicked people. Soros, Buffet, Gates, and others are very different than those titans of industry prior. I do respect their views and agree with them in many respects. Today we are under attack by the near to do, a group of pathetic folks who aspire to be great and or parasites on humanity. They are compassionate conservatives very much like that drug addict Rush. They expect the masses to do as they say, all the while they are doing the opposite.
Those who take what others fought to get for granted are the slackers who give us all a bad name. Union and non union we all have benefited from the past generations. The labor movement has come along way. God help those who disrespect our humble beginnings. Much suffering by good union folks and their families have built what many take for granted.
Sorry for my pontification. I just had to get it off my chest. Basically I do agree with your views and insight.
I respectably disagree. There is a lot government can do but you haven't seen it because we are a nation now built on the money of the pseudo-capitalist, instead of what is good for the overall country !!! I have finally grown up in the last 15 months and have realized first hand just how much this nation revolves around money. If you or a family memeber have enough of it the laws of the state do not apply to you !!!! Right from wrong doesn't matter either if you have enough C-Notes !!! :sick:
The only hope is that the majority of people in this country will fight back and tell their masters they've had enough. The UAW, was one example of this. They told the Big 3 you aren't going to treat us like slaves and while they have been losing the fight as of late folks, I personally believe the greed of corporate america will bring unions like the UAW, back from the dead. I might not see it until I'm a old man or gone but I believe that day will come. I also believe that capitalist are getting so greedy that socialist values will take root here in america, much sooner than later because you can only kick a dog for so long before he bites back !!!
-Rocky
Seems to me that socialist values are already deep rooted with many. Take from those that have worked hard to get ahead and give to those that either do nothing or simply coast through life. Then you have two classes, the very well off and everybody else.
Consider the Democratic party with all their welfare programs. Tax the hell out of the middle class and give it to the "POOR". Consider the UAW with their thinking that a guy installing lug nuts is "Entitled" to as much as the person with tons of education and responsibility.
Along that line of thinking, shouldn't the people cooking burgers and handling the food we eat be just as "entitled"? How about, "Welcome to Walmart. I'm not skilled or educated, but I'm making $30 per hour, just like all our other employees . That $10 item you wanted is now $68."
Of course Walmart will soon close it's doors, because folks can't afford the prices or the fuel to drive there. Our money becomes virtually worthless in the world market. Exports never leave our docks because other countries can't afford our goods, and oil cost us $600 a barrel instead of $150. Companies that are still "hanging on" will be bought up (hostile takeover) with much more valuable Euro or Yen. Think Anhauser Bush. But that's OK because everybody got their $30 per hour, ... a couple of times.
Now congress is seriously considering a $300 Billion help package for those greedy enough to think they could afford a house way over their ability to pay for. That is another $300 Billion we can borrow from China. But that is OK too! As long as that unskilled person can live just like the skilled ones. Until it all comes crashing down. Socialism!
Kip
That saying is attributed to Nikita Khrushchev, but it would've been more appropriate had it been said by Chairman Mao! I think our collective neck is already in the noose made from a cheap Chinese-manufactured nylon rope. Let's hope that rope is of such poor quality it breaks when the trap door falls out from below our feet.
How bad do you think it will have to get? Will it be when you are not allowed to take a potty break or even wipe the sweat from you eyes. Look at the difference between now and 70 years ago. You are thinking wages and benefits are the most important thing. The Unions came about because of slave like working conditions. I don't think that is the case today in any Union shop.
As far as Socialism goes. It will not help the "Working Man". It is to help those that are supposedly unable to work. It is taking from the working man and giving to those below him on the food chain. You need to look back at your tax returns before the Bush tax cuts and ask yourself, Do I want to pay as much as I did back then? Obama and or Hillary would do away with those tax cuts. The "Bush tax cuts" cut taxes all the way to the bottom tax payer. That would include you and I. Don't expect any candidate to get us out of the global economy. We are there and will have to live within it. That means we lose while others gain. Socialism on a global scale. Should make the Dems and Republicans both happy, as it does not hurt the wealthy.
Unions are proud they have the right to strike...well, finally, employers have rights to retaliate...move the plant down South or offshore...now take your strike and walk your signs, your job is gone, AND YOU PUSHED IT AWAY...PLANTS leaving is YOUR fault, plain and simple...say goodbye to unions...
My wife's stepfather was a driver for Greyhound. Back in the 80's sometime, the union decided to go on strike. Like Reagan and the air traffic controllers, the company fired all the drivers and replaced them. Fortunately, my stepfather in law was able to retire with a full pension, so he and my MIL live comfortably in Cheyenne, WY.
My step daughter works summers and holidays at the local store of a national grocery chain. She is part of the union, and pays dues from each paycheck. Not once have they done anything beneficial for her. In fact, when she returned to work after her first year away at college, they wanted to collect back dues from her, which would have made her already small paycheck even smaller.
Oh, and the union clogs up our mailbox and voice mail with needless "informative" messages like CC and insurance offers.
Rocky, I agree 100%. Employees can, and should, fight back. The difference in our opinions of the subject is on result of this issue. I can, and have, told my employer to treat me better. The key is that I knew I had the job performance and track record to back it up. So if the employer said No I would have gladly left (and have done so in the past at other employers). The thing is that I have enough confidence in myself and my abilities that I am willing to stand up for my rights as an employee. But my employer has a right to tell me off and say no. And I can't cry foul or go on strike and expect to keep my job. It is my right and responsibility at that point to leave and find another employer. And if no other employers will take my demands, then I have to either find a new career or suck it up.
I applaud the UAW for its history and what it did to help break the cycle of employee abuse and indentured servitude like work in this country. The UAW succeeded. The problem is that it is now trying to make more demands which their employers, and many of your own peers (us dissenters on the board
All the while we trade with a communist nation, who disrespect copyrights/patents, has no environmental regard, exploits child/prison labor, and you name it. Why don't we trade with Cuba? Because they don't have one fifth of the worlds future consumers. Big corporations are doing a brilliant job lobbying. China supports a inefficient steel industry in order to retain JOBS. This is against globalization. Globalization states that capital will move to its most efficient use. As such when the govt funds an industry, it puts people out of work in the efficient industry.
Then there is mention that govt is being used to bail out those folks who can't afford those homes. Spare me please. Its more like they are again bailing the ones who made the ill-fated loans (banks and mortgage companies). All the while the CEOs of the banks and mortgage companies are enjoying more that union wages. So please fix this system from the top down and quit picking on the working stiff.
Recently the extension of unemployment benefits was defeated on the hill. All the while the bail out of these big companies was passed.
Then, companies saw it differently...they began to look 2 or 3 contracts ahead (6-9 years) and they began to plan...build plants elsewhere, so if the union struck, they simply moved the plant and the workers lost their jobs...they may have the right to strike, but they do NOT have the divine right to a job...employers do NOT have to tolerate the cr*p and shenanigans that employees and unions put out...
The union has made its bed, is stuck lying in it, and still cannot see the forest for the trees...soon, the union will be as relevant as buggy whip makers...if they try and unionize the south, I believe they will be met with great resistance from workers, who understand that they only have jobs because of those who lost their union jobs from the north...
And, without the rotten work habits of the unionized north, training "green" workers is not difficult, since they don't have 40 years of entitlement work habits to rid them of...down here we understand the what work is, and how grateful we all are to be employed...
I am sure if you were paying taxes prior to the Bush tax cuts you are paying less now.
I can guarantee that every Union member in this country paid less taxes as a result of the tax cuts. Obama wants higher taxes. I say cut expenses first and see where we are. Same old tax and spend politics.
On the rest I agree that bailing out companies that screw up is bad for the country. I was not for the loan to Chrysler. They did pay US back with interest ahead of time. Giving a loan to cover a loan that should have never been lent is just crazy.
Now how do you propose for the government to set wages for company executives?
Why would they want to brag about supporting a Chinese steel producer in the first place? You have to be pretty arrogant and insensitive to broadcast this fact when tens of thousands of steelworkers have lost their jobs in the United States who performed productively while supporting an inefficient Soviet-style operation in China!
Nowadays people are looking at that and saying "wow, that gives us jobs" whereas before they complained about the compensation.
That said, as soon as these companies find it is to their economic advantage to move from the plant in the south to one overseas they'll do that as well. I watched that whole thing happen in a different industry growing up. When I was 6 there was a big soft rubber plant in the town where my grandparents lived. Had been there for decades. When it burned down the company said it would rebuild in the town that had supported it all those years but once they looked at the numbers they decided it was more economical to rebuild in South Carolina. No more than 20 years later they were operating entirely in Asia.
In the same town later on the hard rubber company - the folks that made Ace combs, bowling balls, battery casings and such moved to Tennessee (they skipped having a fire) in the name of cheap labor and have since shut that down in favor of overseas manufacturing.
So, temporarily the south is a rising manufacturing power but that will only last as it makes economic sense to do so.
I don't know how we keep and recreate a manufacturing base but it's a challenge we need to be up to.
I don't know how we keep and recreate a manufacturing base but it's a challenge we need to be up to
It will have to be a new base on new products. For example, say we move beyond gasoline cars and steel...into nano-tech and bio-tech goods. Or we start building the giant wind machines that T Boone Pickens wants to build across the Midwest from Texas to Canada. And I for one am praying that the new Tesla Roadster and S series are HUGE hits and become the next best thing. They are currently made in England but that could more here in a heartbeat. They already have plans to do mass production of their affordable models here in the US.
It funny when the toy companies or clothing retailers are exposed. Remember Cathy Lee and KMart child sweatshops, the dog fur in the coats at Burlington Coat Factory, tainted pet food, or even the recent leaded paint on toddlers toys. These companies did a full court press on the PR front.
Fact is that we only know about very little of what goes on in China (China prefers it that way). Fact also is these multi-nationals have and are being bullied by the corrupt communist govt of China. China is demanding jobs in exchange for access to their markets which have a promising future. If you think these are American companies, think again, you might also believe that Coke is an American company. If conclusion, there is a difference between free trade and fair trade. Its up to the govt to regulate a fair trade policy with each nation and not to buckle down to the corporate lobby.
I can guarantee that every Union member in this country paid less taxes as a result of the tax cuts.
Paying less or paying later? There is another thing thats on credit, the tax bill. Trust me this is smoke and mirrors. It would lead to the crowding effect economist talk about when govt borrows too much. Thereby, higher interest rates bid up the cost of borrowing for company's or all together put the borrowing off during an expansion cycle. The inflation is factored into and or is a component of interest rates.
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/gwbny.pdf
I think we both know that once paid to Uncle Sam it is gone for EVER. At least that cut was more money I could afford to put into my 401K before I retired. Not that it did much good as the current economy has taken most of the gains from my Fidelity accounts.
I happen to believe that the government has more than enough to do what they are supposed to be doing. No President since Ike has paid back ONE PENNY of the National Debt. It has gone up during every Presidency since Ike. So give it to me and I will save for myself thank you.
Speaking of Unions mine has a very well run retirement fund. We did not let the International touch our fund.
If there was any chance that the money from those cuts was going to pay down the National debt it may have some validity. We both know that will not happen even when they have a balanced budget.
That is why I believe that ALL people should pay some income tax (assuming you HAVE an income tax and not the Fair Tax), simply because we all enjoy the fruits of living in America...even if the poor only pay $50 or $100 a year (much less than the poor pay for cell phones and cigarettes) it would at least mean they pay for SOMETHING...
I'll second that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Regards,
OW