now that I'm long gone from Boeing's I could give a hoot and a toot. Boeing's unions are large, yet unrefined in such a manner that one hand fights with the other hand, to the point of just slinging mud about inconsequential things all of the time. This only dumbs the whole frame of thinking down to the lowest common denominator: jelly donuts and Starbuck's coffee.
I am so glad to be out of that back-biting den of inequity they call Boeing's. The union does little to help you when its time to distribute pink slips, yet, don't try and withhold your union dues for one month. Then there's news happenin' boys.
And you guys didn't think socialism was alive and well in the U.S.? Protect those slackers and take dues and strike for your collective bargaining stake. It's all a crock. :sick:
Glad to be burning to a crisp in the Arizona desert instead.
SACRAMENTO (AP) - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is threatening to pay thousands of state employees the federal minimum wage of $6.55 an hour until lawmakers reach a deal on California's overdue state budget.
Democrats and Republicans have so far been unable to compromise on a solution to the state's $15.2 billion budget deficit for the fiscal year that started July 1. As the stalemate continued, Schwarzenegger has ratcheted up his rhetoric.
Spokesman Aaron McLear said the Republican governor is contemplating signing an executive order next week that would pay about 200,000 state workers the federal minimum wage, which is $1.45 an hour less than California's minimum wage.
The Service Employees International Union, which represents nearly half the affected workers, was considering legal action to try to block the move, spokesman Jim Zamora said.
"We're victims of this budget crisis. It's not our fault that the state Legislature and Governor Schwarzenegger can't come together to pass a balanced budget," he said.
The union represents about 95,000 clerical, office and civilian workers throughout the state.
No mention of cutting his and the legislatures salaries..Our governor is a total MORON. How about just not paying welfare and medicaid. Why pick on the WORKERS?
Because they vote and they'll be all over Sacramento raising Cain? I guess some of them will stay on the job, misfiling stuff, or calling in "sick" or otherwise avoiding business as usual.
When the feds come to loggerheads over budget matters, they don't defer maintenance on some building somewhere to save a few bucks. They close the Washington Monument.
The UAW is well versed in selective work actions that cause the most pain in the shortest time aren't they? The recent Traverse job action for example.
I still have the 2004' Chevrolet Impala, my ex wife to be forged my name on and I'm still paying for. It's a constant reminder of how she screwed me over. Yeah going on 16 months and still not divorced with no assests to divide. Isn't the state of Texas, justicial system just wonderful ??? :sick:
Well getting back to the car, I want to dump it and get something cheaper. Mom, is going to co-sign for me since my ex has trashed my credit with all her forgery's. I'm thinking about switching to a Buick Riveria. I found a 97' White Riveria with only 55K on it for $6,987 in Illinois. I think the Riveria/Aurora route is the direction I'm leaning torwards. I obviously want a solid, union made, GM automobile that is inexpensive, gets high 20's + hwy mpg's. I believe I will break even on the Impala, since it gets good gas mileage and have checked the local market. Any suggestions ???? :surprise:
Michigan, will blossom one day again. Obama, will bring us green jobs, and we are catching Vegas, with the sheer number of Casino's !!! They are already talking about building more Nuke Plants, here. Granholm, is doing everything she can to clean up "pot hole" John's mess !!! :mad: As Mr. Perot, predicted the free trade treaty's have destroyed manufactoring and our state well based on that. We have felt the collapse more than most states because we have so many private sector jobs. Some states like Texas, have a butt load of government jobs building military related equipment but they will soon feel the crunch once uncle sam turns off the faucet of funds. My old Texas, employer (Pantex) is laying off hundreds of people. I guess we could run our state like Dubya, does Washington and bleed red ink just to attract employers. I would rather pay the bills now. Ya know "pay as we go" or does that logic not exist anymore ???
I wished the VW plant would of came to Michigan, but ol' well....They keep all their good technology in Europe, and give us the bare bones. (Read that in this or last months automobile magazine via the article on the VW CC) :surprise: I don't expect VW, to be around much longer anyways.
Does the UAW have the leadership that could run GM and make a profit.
Yeah, but they could hire me to run it for them !!! I would buy the presidency. I'd reverse all free trade laws, GATT/WTO, would be given a noose and a trap door to stand on as lemko would say !!! :P All imports would be tariffed, and all government, military weapons, would be union made here in the U.S. unlike they are now. :mad:
So yeah, it could be done but the current laws on the books need to be changed in order to not only save GM, but to save this country !!!! :sick:
She's obviously not anti-union, but one of her biggest complaints was how the union regularly went to bat for the people who should have been canned. My wife is a teacher, and she complains about the same thing with her union.
The reason is it eliminates favoritism. I use to think the same as you grbeck, but I witnessed favoritism and a good person lost his job based on accusations.
>" I obviously want a solid, union made, GM automobile..... "
I would like to have one of those too!
Chances are good that most Americans would pay the same or more for a well built quality automobile from one of the big 3. Especially those of us that are now seniors and remember the Junk that invaded our shores.
In days of yore we would buy a new Big 3 car and had a 3-4 month 3000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and a 1 year 12K mile drive train warranty and a new car smell. The foreign invader hit our shores and didn't really offer any better, but they cost less and got slightly better mileage.
Big difference is that, especially the Japanese, kept improving the "quality" of their offerings and built cars that would go 100K with few problems. The big 3 just kept building the same ole same ole. And the UAW made sure their workers were living large! When the Big 3 management finally understood they were being out classed and their ship was sinking, they had a major HOLE. Labor cost and strikes. Bumper stickers like "Buy American" didn't help much.
And yes, the Big 3 management got bigger and bigger raises for incompetence.
Just don't think there is any way the union made vehicles can compete, quality wise, as long as their labor cost and salaries are more than double that of their Asian competition.
An earlier post that showed the Best Buy in used cars listed virtually every make and model of foreign cars with the exception of VW. There was 1 Buick and 2 Lincolns in that list. The Worse Buys were from the big 3 and VW. Chances of finding a quality solid used UAW built vehicle are slim.
Even if the Big 3 started building the best cars in the world, tomorrow, it would be years before the buying public believed it. Their best bet is to start offering something with a unbeatable warranty that just can't be gotten anywhere else.
How about a plug in electric car with a 60 mph top speed and 100 mile range for the urban commuters at a reasonable price. Something the size of a Civic or Escort. Most commuters don't drive more than 50 mile round trips to work or the store. And none of the auto manufacturers are offering them anything "different".
GM and the others are going to "Re Think" their place in the market and offer serious alternatives, or move their facilities off shore. Wishful thinking and Obama aren't going to change that unless there are government monies involved. :sick:
Just don't think there is any way the union made vehicles can compete, quality wise, as long as their labor cost and salaries are more than double that of their Asian competition.
LOL - I wish my union wages were double that of the US Asian transplant workers - I could have retired in 15 years instead of 30.
And my UAW built car that I bought last fall is holding up quite nicely. I wouldn't trade it for an import in a minute.
Just go to your GM dealer and do some test driving. I'd suggest a Malibu. Or an Aura.
Instead of ridiculing anything done by GM or UAW from the past, we should try looking at the half full instead of half empty. If you want to use half empty start with the VCM discussion and the Camry problems here. You'll find the popular companies that didn't have long-standing contracts from a labor union, have their share of problems now too as they try to operate within the same economic constraints as GM has been operating.
>Even if the Big 3 started building the best cars in the world, tomorrow, it would be years before the buying public believed it.
On that we agree. There are people who try to put in their hate speech toward GM or whatever they perceive is GM related to vent some kind of need for power or a hate. As I said above the same kind of talk is showing up in discussions where people have problems with the cars I mentioned earlier. All car companies have problems with cars, but in 2003 I noted that the trend toward mediocrity had started for Honda in the Accord.
One thing I can fault GM and the UAW for is not being proactive in advertising and using the internet to counter the negative talk about problematic cars in the past or the not problematic cars of the present. Other companies have tried to use the internet to their advantage; I've even seen what might have been and have heard about attempts to close discussions that were negative toward a company and to put out positive counter messages when there is talk about a problem existing in a vehicle within their group. And again the lack of use of internet techniques on the part of GM and the UAW come from their old school habits and techniques; a change which has to be made now to leave those behind.
Interesting is the foreign makers' use of temporaries in their plants now rather than employing people. When the first plants were being built here out of necessity politically, the talk was about just like Japan, jobs-for-life just like they do it in Japan... now Georgetown is at reality. They want workers they don't have to keep next week.
Sorry to hear of your troubles, rocky. I'd be a little wary of an Aurora as they are the same platform as a Cadillac Seville. It's great when they run well, but repairs on an aging car like this are high. What kind of engine does the Riviera have? If it's the 3800, just watch out for the intake manifold problem. Heck, you can probably even find an Impala for the same price as that Riv if you keep looking. I want to get a 2004-2005 Buick Park Avenue someday if I can find one that is in excellent condition.
Anyway, if you can find one in good condition, I highly recommend a 1988-90 Buick Park Avenue or LeSabre. The car is extremely reliable, very fuel-efficient, and quite durable. I bought the car as a winter beater with the expectation that it would only last a year or so. Here it is three years later and I can't kill it. The A/C still even blows ice cold air.
Your predicament brings up another problem with the way things are in this country. I wouldn't dare get married these days unless they outlawed divorce. The guy always seems to get royally screwed in the end. I warn all young guys not to even consider it as I see it as a reckless and self-destructive act with the law favoring the woman regardless of her behavior. I had a co-worker whose wife was cheating on him with somebody she met on the internet. He gets kicked out of his house and his wife turned his kids against him. If she did that to me, I'd be posting from a supermax prison right now.
We have yet to see the ever changing world evolve. Why must we allow the auto industry to morph into something we detest? Americans have the purchasing power to dictate. If we demand UAW built autos, then it will be so. Are you going to allow the multi nationals to push you around? Do they get any resistance to shipping companies/jobs overseas? How much power does the purchasing power of American have? Together Americans can change all of this. Alone we are powerless. This is the same reason we did collective efforts in labor. When are all the non union folks out there going to realize that much of their lot in life is tied to the collective efforts of those who went before them? We have all regretted something after being able to see it with 20/20 hind sight. This is something that we need not do here.
My own thoughts on this auto business is that the BIG 3 are seeking a govt bail-out. Even Toyota and Honda are losing sleep over the big sleeping giant that is awaking. They are dreaming, its more like a nightmare. China will do a dump on the auto markets of the world. They will sell below cost, until their competition has to close its doors or is at a disadvantage. Then they will be the only/biggest supplier. Japan at one time sold for less in order to increase market share. This is nothing new. If you suggest that autos and or any goods can be manufactured overseas, then shipped across the ocean and still sold for less than something manufactured domestically, your just not a realist. Labor is a big factor in the sale price, however, not the only factor.
While all the anti-union points are valid to a point. Fact and reality is that these Big 3 and the imports are big multinationals which have a big stake in China. They have invested billions and all the while expanded overseas and seek bail outs domestically. They have traded American jobs to appease the China. All they want is a piece of the market in China. China is expected to be the number one consumer nation by 2025. Right now we hold that position and are the market for their goods. Japan is number two and Germany is number three.
Make no mistake about it. When you go to Walmart and or anywhere your American purchasing power elects which companies/countries will grow and thrive. If you are unaware that China was the number two purchaser of autos, behind America, last year. This status was attained and fueled by Americans buying their products in Walmart stores and else where. They are now competing with us for fuel for those autos. Capitalism has price as the rationing mechanism for fuel.
So now how good were those prices at Walmart? Were they worth it? Japan as a nation tends to spend most of their income on vacations and fashion. These folks in China like autos and have just begun. Its no secret that the majority of China is below middle class and hence the sleeping giant and its a fifth of the earths population. My estimate is that 5% or 10% of the total impact is what were seeing/experiencing.
I'm not opposed to growth, but not so fast, and a planned growth. We have to stop this madness. If you don't like the union, change it. Get elected or find some way of expressing your ideal union. Tell your children the same, grow up, get an education and change it. Griping is only the first step to change.
I wouldn't get down on women. I know many fine women who have had the carpet pulled from under them. Seems that many of my male friends are opting for young foriegn brides. I see a trend inspired by Madison Ave. Be it that there is always two sides to every failed relationship. Someone always gets the heart put into the food processor and pureed. Looking for an ideal mate is just as important as looking for the desirable car. As such the test drive/kicking the tires is always the greatest. The best of luck. Peace Dallasdude
The World market as you are referring to, started long before we started trading with China. It started right after WW2. I remember getting cheap little tin toys "Made in Japan". At that time all the Radios and TVs were made in the USA. By the late 1950s we were getting portable radios from Japan. VW started selling the Bug in the USA. So it has evolved over the years. Now most of the import automakers have factories in the USA. With VW returning to build a huge plant in TN. Our dollar has decreased in value making our labor more affordable. The imports will have to treat the employees fairly well to avoid the UAW getting in. So the UAW will still be an influence on labor costs. They will never return to their heyday in this World economy. The sooner they come to that realization the better. They have hurt the Big 3 in recent years more than they have helped. The recent Union concessions may give the automakers a chance. Not a big chance with what few vehicles they are selling here. GM & Ford may survive in the rest of the World. Not so sure about the US market. With states like CA trying to destroy them it is not good.
I remember some of those Japanese trinkets stamped "Made in Occupied Japan." It seems Japan always had a knack for cameras. I have a Nikon FG from about 1985. Don't know where to get it fixed, unfortunately. It's a shame because it's a nice camera.
I think all Rivieras are supercharged therefore they have the metal upper intake manifold. Howevery some later SSEIs and ParkAve ultras have had lower intake manifold gaskets start leaking, allegedly from deterioration due to the first DexCool formula and leaving DexCool in longer than 2 years.
A neighbor has an Aurora and the technology is a step ahead of its time, but with the concurrent problem of being more difficult to work on the ShortStar and other things.
"Even if the Big 3 started building the best cars in the world, tomorrow, it would be years before the buying public believed it. Their best bet is to start offering something with a unbeatable warranty that just can't be gotten anywhere else."
That brings us back to perception, and perception, in the eyes of the buyer, is their reality...whether it is fools like me who remember the junk of 15-30 years ago, or folks who just see the imports as better, that perception is bringing down the Big 3...and it is up to THEM to change that perception...blame the union, blame mgmt, blame noncaring dealers, it still means that many buyers will not consider a Big 3 car...
The simple sad part is that for those who were burned, it isn't ancient history for them, it is the memory of a very expensive purchase that was junk...and those memories will not fade easily, esp when the imports are now here as alternatives...and that is the way it is...
Re: Made in Japan. I still get a kick out of that part of the dialogue in "Back to the Future" when Marty McFly is back in 1955 and setting up the video camera to show Doc Brown:
Marty: "Something's wrong, it doesn't work." Doc Brown: (looking) "Well, no wonder it doesn't work, it's made in Japan." Marty: What do you mean, Doc, the best stuff is made in Japan?!" :P
The lifetime power train warranty really doesn't do it. To really bring back consumers, Big 3 need to offer at least 5 yr./60,000 bumper-to-bumper warranty and improve their dealerships.
>simple sad part is that for those who were burned, it isn't ancient history for them, it is the memory of a very expensive purchase that was junk
What's interesting is that many of the people have had trouble with foreign brands, but they are very forgiving of those. How do you feel about that? As an attorney you deal with people and delve into their psyches. What do you get about forgiveness about the shortcomings of foreign cars as they regress toward the mean especially midsize as in Accord and Camry?
I agree it's been GM's battle to change the attitude and they could have been much more proactive. Same for UAW. A lot of the money that could have gone to offensive PR has gone for top salaries and retirements as well as worker pay. The UAW hasn't helped by striking the Malibu plant and American Axle.
DETROIT, July 25 (Reuters) - American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc on Friday posted a steep quarterly loss due to a strike by its union workers and plunging U.S. sales of trucks and SUVs for which it supplies parts. American Axle cut its dividend and said it would sell up to $50 million in assets to shore up liquidity for worker buyouts and a restructuring in response to U.S. auto sales it said could drop by over 3 million units from 2007 levels.
Interesting note...many people HAVE had trouble with foreign brands, but I have to wonder if the people who experienced YEARS of Big 3 troubles, and changed to imports, have had AS MUCH trouble with the imports causing them to come back to Big 3...
We know about Toy sludge problems, and Honda had a problem (which escapes me at the moment), but was that as broad and wide as, say, many years (70s-90s???) of Big 3 debacles...IMO, probably not, as the rep for import quality still seems to be quite intact, with some major (nonfatal) problems, but Big 3 quality had years of deterioration, and I think just the sheer time span has given the Big 3 the bad rep and placed them on the defensive, maybe permanently...
BTW, while I do deal with clients' psyches, not as much as you might think...yes, I often console a bankruptcy client who, literally, breaks down crying (men and women) at the mess they have gotten themselves into...or auto accident clients will sometimes have deep resentment against the person who injured them...but the most counseling, IMO, happens with divorce clients, especially the victim, who deeply resents the other spouse for finding someone new, or just being bored with them...I do not do divorce now, but maybe soon to get into it...
Well, I'm one of those people burned by GM in the seventies and early eighties. Grew up in Buffalo and my father was a small businessman who did business with the auto factories, populated by UAW workers, that dominated the Buffalo economy. Always drove GM, and not just because he had to park his car in the GM lots when he went there on business. I drove his old Buicks from the age of 16 to about 22, went without a car until I could afford to buy my own at age 26. Each of the Buicks was worse than the one before; one POS after another. My first purchase at age 26 was an Accord, followed by another and then a Chrysler minivan, then back to Honda and now Acura. So I have a little insight into why many of us in our 40's will never buy GM again and are willing to overlook problems in the imports.
The problems with GMs in the seventies and eighties really had to be experienced to be believed. Everything that could go wrong did. CV joints breaking, hoses bursting, muffler falling off, you name it, it happened. I distinctly remembering driving back from a repair shop in 1982 in a 1976 Buick and having the muffler fall off in the middle of the street. I was so disgusted that I parked the car and left it there for a week.
My one regression to American-made, Chrysler, in 1995 was duly rewarded with a fire behind the dashboard when my wife started up the car one morning with my baby daughter in the car seat.
My first Honda was a revelation - no repairs whatsoever the five years of ownership. While my 22 years of Hondas/Acuras haven't been trouble-free, virtually every issue I've had with them is simply one of wear and tear - tires, breaks, wipers, etc. Never any transmission problems, A/C compressors breaking down, etc., other than those stupid automatic doors on the Odyssey, which needed adjustment every six months - which the Honda dealer always did for no charge.
To summarize: it's a lot easier to "forgive" the imports' problems because wear and tear is to be expected. Major life threatening mechanical problems are not.
And as for my father, his business went under as the auto plants shut down, so he moved to Florida, bought his first Toyota, and finally admitted that GM is getting was it deserved.
That brings us back to perception, and perception, in the eyes of the buyer, is their reality...whether it is fools like me who remember the junk of 15-30 years ago, or folks who just see the imports as better, that perception is bringing down the Big 3...and it is up to THEM to change that perception...blame the union, blame mgmt, blame noncaring dealers, it still means that many buyers will not consider a Big 3 car...
The simple sad part is that for those who were burned, it isn't ancient history for them, it is the memory of a very expensive purchase that was junk...and those memories will not fade easily, esp when the imports are now here as alternatives...and that is the way it is...
You could not have said it better! It isn't ancient history at all, but painful, expensive memories. I was very forgiving with our new Dodge (jun)K-car (more trouble than all the cars I've owned put together) then it was a chevrolet. The thought of looking at one of the big 3 has NEVER remotely crossed our minds.... 2nd time Hell freezes over we may look at one... but no sooner.
My view (see previous post) is hardly isolated. I'm an executive at a suburban Dallas company. There are about 40 covered parking spaces reserved for executives to park. I looked at their vehicles recently - leaving out trucks, there was only two out of about thirty cars that was a domestic - a Mustang and a Corvette. All the rest were European and Japanese. And this is a key demographic that spends a lot of money on cars, and the domestics are so uncompetitive so as to be non-existent.
So whether you blame management or the UAW, I just don't know see how GM and Ford are going to survive.
marsha's posts on Michigan are spot on. Here's a great article on their brilliant state government. With an 8.5% unemployment rate, a loss of 69,000 manufacturing jobs in the past year and a $400 million deficit staring them in the face next fiscal year, Michigan has finally realized their confiscatory tax rates and general anti-business climate play a big role in all this. So what do they do? They push through the nation's most generous tax rebate - for movie producers to make their films in the state. Never mind their biggest industry and their UAW workers are in the toilet, that's no reason to give them a tax break; let's give money to Hollywood instead!
I am on my fourth and fifth Hondas and as of yet I haven't had anything like what I've seen with American makes.
The one big issue I had with Honda was - this is what Bob (marsha) was trying to remember - on Odyssey automatic transmission. Went at about 65K on an 02 Ody. It was replaced quickly and free by Honda. They picked up my rental as well. Didn't cost me a dime. I replaced that Ody with a CPO 04 which has been flawless. I've had three Accords that have been no trouble. Current one has 153K on it. The 85 was at 144K when someone in a Caddy Cimmaron t-boned it and an 80 Accord that made it to 167K.
I've had a couple of Nissans that were not up to the Honda standard but quite reliable.
There are others but let's cut to my last two American nameplates (I call on teh nameplates because neither of my American cars were built in the US while three of my Hondas were). I had a 1998 Chrysler Sebring convertible that was trouble free. I had to sell it because the family grew too big so I didn't get to test it past say 60 K which I always thing of as a milestone for a car to get through. It was made in Mexico.
My 1995 Windstall was everyting that sent people flying to Japanese makes. Every seal you could think of popped on that sucker. Every one of them involved dropping the engine and Ford would not consider even a tiny bit of responsibility. They were by far the worst customer service folks I've ever run into. As soon as I replaced the last seal the transmission went to the tune of an $1,800 rebuild. At that point we no longer viewed the vehicle as something one could depend on to get from point A to point B.
on to topic - I can't blame the UAW (or the CAW) for the problems. They were all design flaws and things that the manufacturer did not consider worthy of redesign until forced by public exposure. It would take a lot for me to ever consider Ford again.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
>"They were all design flaws and things that the manufacturer did not consider worthy of redesign until forced by public exposure. It would take a lot for me to ever consider Ford again. "
This is exactly what I was posting about earlier. A lot of folks will not, or can not afford to, take a chance on another Big 3 vehicle. At least not any time soon.
They (the Big 3) spent years teaching us that their main concern was pushing their hardware out the door and letting the customer deal with the problems. We learned!
The CR article naming the Best 3-9 year old cars, and the worst 3-9 year old cars reflected reported problems. They weren't talking about vehicles of the distance past. They were comparing recently manufactured vehicles.
For the B3 to say "We've seen the light", and expect the buying public to come charging back, is expecting a bit much. With the exception of those that will vote for Obama and believe Words rather than actions.
J.D. Powers often list a B3 vehicle as "Best in Initial Quality", but for some reason that falls apart a few Thousand miles down the road.
My first GM car was a '52 Chevy that I purchased in '59 or '60. There was a long long list of Chevys and Pontiacs over the years. And back then they were as reliable and maybe more so than the imports that were trickling in. The last 2 from GM were an '87 Cutlass with the 3.8 liter V6 and and an 87 Astro with the same engine. What pieces of crap they were! Pretty disappointing since it cost me a lot of money to get out of them and now watching my GM "Prefered" stock at a very low.
Last B3 was a 98 Ram.
When CR, or the like, publish list of 3-5 year old cars and B3 vehicles are on the "Best Buy" list, I will definitely consider one. Until then, no thanks. I'm not willing and can't afford to be a Ginny Pig and "Tester" for them at my expense any longer.
Big 3 ships are sinking with all hands aboard. The UAW had best start helping to get them high in the water again, rather that drilling more holes.
CR is nothing more than an import buyer's guide. They have lost all credibility with me.
I personally own three Big 3 vehicles and would not have bought them if they were junk. None of them have fallen apart after the first several thousand miles. Perhaps they were not built by the UAW on a Friday.
As long as the UAW continues to put out a quality product I will continue to purchase what they build.
While anyone may not agree with all of CR's reviews (I sure don't) they are not an "import buyer's rag". They just test for the features that they believe consumers want (quality interior, quiet drive, ease of use, appearance) and those that consumers need (side airbags, ABS, etc.). In those key areas the imports have trounced the Big 3 for over a decade, which has been reflected in CR's ratings and reviews. CR also queries all of its members/subscribers to ask how their car is faring down the road. These go into the long-term reliability ratings. So don't blame CR, blame the Big 3.
As an aside, this past year my parents recently purchased a new Ford Taurus X which they love. CR also gave it a very good rating. If I'm not mistaken a Ford is a Big 3 model.
HOST - Looking over this thread it seems like while we meander into UAW talk the majority of these posts are about facts/rumors/opinions about the Big 3 vs. Imports. Is there a better thread for us to post that discussion in to keep the UAW one on track? Or should we maybe change the title of this one to better reflect the majority of the discussions? Just a thought, have a good weekend.
Yes, I will continue to blame import guides like CR. Quality interior, quiet drive, etc., all describe my recent Sebring Limited purchase. People who have ridden in it comment on how smooth and quiet it is. Who would have thought that it was built by the UAW in Sterling Heights, MI. Certainly not CR, I'm sure.
CR list is more than simply comfort features. Reliability seems to be high on their priorities. There may very well be wonderful new B3 models mfg in '06- '09. But we won't know that for a while. Notice there are B3 in the "Best List" and imports in the "Worst List".
"About these lists"
"The lists on these pages are compiled from overall reliability data covering 1998-2007 models with above-average or much-below-average reliability. CR Good Bets and Bad Bets include only the models for which we have sufficient data for at least three model years. Models that were brand-new in 2006 or 2007 do not appear. Problems with the engine major, engine cooling, transmission major, and drive system were weighted more heavily than other problems."
BEST OF THE BEST
These are models that have performed well in CR road tests over the years, and have proved to have several or more years of better-than-average reliability. Listed alphabetically.
Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Camry (except '07 V6) Toyota Camry Solara, Toyota Celica, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Echo Toyota Highlander, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Matrix, Toyota Prius Toyota RAV4, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota Sienna, Toyota Tundra (except '07 V8 4WD)
Volvo S60
WORST OF THE WORST
"These vehicles showed multiple Used Car Verdicts that were much worse than average, according to our survey respondents. They consistently had more problems than other models overall."
Buick Rendezvous (AWD), Buick Terraza
Chevrolet Astro, Chevrolet Blazer, Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), Chevrolet S-10 Pickup (4WD), Chevrolet Uplander, Chevrolet Venture,
Chrysler Town & Country (AWD), Dodge Grand Caravan (AWD)
The UAW gets blamed for problems people had with their GM and other cars. That IS the tie. The Honda owners of 2003 Accords don't blame the Honda workers, in the US, for their Accord having poor back brakes, wandering. an over-sized A-pillar to look around at intersections, and on up to VCM currently giving problems to some owners. Add those with the many transmission failures! A neighbor drives Honda TL and his wife's purty red one had three transmission failures before they unleased it or traded it. That's a current car, maybe 06 07.
There are some who still try to quelch talk about Toyota's sludging which Toyota resisted admitting was a design flaw and then finally gave in. A Toyota with sludge was brought up in one of their discussions a day ago so it's not a gone problem. We have all the Toyotas with shifting or engine or software problems. Even CR had to unrecommend the Camry V6. Must have hurt them bad.
I asked marsha7 about the psychology involved in the GM hatred which with halo effect includes the UAW; many people suffer floating anger (to wit blaming others for their home bankruptcy these days). A few people take that as a catharsis moment for their problems from the past when they bought used cars and blamed the manufacturer for all the troubles or had a muffler fall off on the way back from a repair shop--aggravating, but not GM. The posts indicating a lot of the attitudes are shaped by the import magazines fawning over them after their initials decades of rustaway econoboxes like media faces on a world tour with Osama were on point.
The point is what does GM have to do? What does UAW have in this now?
I think kipk touched on a lot of this. We was a GM man until GM burned him a few times and the bond was broken. It didn't happen overnight.
Likewise, those who have become Honda or Toyota people aren't going to change overnight. They'll either have to get burned pretty good by the product or have a big 3 car out there than dazzles to the point of drawing them in.
There's actually not much the UAW can do at this point other than not striking at the plants that hold out their chance at survival and to be open to taking good, honest looks at the numbers when the manufacturer says they can't afford what the union wants in a contract. That and be super diligent on the job.
The Big 3 are capable of building the cars people want. They better do so quickly.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
My wife's Denali had $3,000 worth of repairs in less than 55,000 miles. Now I know what "Professional Grade meant. You need to be a mechanic to own one! :sick:
Not to discount your story, but my experience with Buicks has been such a polar opposite one of yours I swear we must live in parallel universes. My first car was a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe six-passenger wagon I bought in 1981 when I was 16. I later handed that car down to my younger brother and he drove it until 1992! My second car was a 1979 Buick Electra Park Avenue sedan I bought when I was 19 which was an excellent car until I wrecked it in 1989. My girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she purchased new in March of that year which has yet to give her any trouble and I drive a 1988 Buick Park Avenue every day.
Funny thing, both my girlfriend and I are in our early 40s and we'd buy nothing but GM. I'm very happy with my latest GM vehicle - a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance - my FIFTH Cadillac!
hey just test for the features that they believe consumers want (quality interior, quiet drive, ease of use, appearance...)
Appearance?!?!? The imports already lost me there! They are either as bland as unflavored low-fat ice milk or look like alien space insects! Anything that's remotely attractive (European) is more trouble than being married to a heroin-addicted Vegas showgirl.
Appearance?!?!? The imports already lost me there! They are either as bland as unflavored low-fat ice milk or look like alien space insects! Anything that's remotely attractive (European) is more trouble than being married to a heroin-addicted Vegas showgirl.
Ha, I like that last line.
To each their own my friend. Personally, the only Medium 3 cars my wife and I like the appearance of are the Enclave (gorgeous), Lucerne, MKX, CTS/DTS. Before those models we hadn't liked the look of a car made by the Medium 3 in almost two decades. Back in the 60s they made so many neat looking cars. And then three decades of blech. Now, they seem to have turned the corner. I really think Bob Lutz has a knack for making cars that look like what folks want.
I'd put the looks of my Infiniti up against any Medium 3 sedan made in the last twenty years. Beats them all, hands down.
Lem, I find it amazing he says that his Hondas problems were mostly normal wear itms, and then complains about a MUFFLER on his '76 Buick. Are not exaust systems wear items????
If this happened in 1982, I would think you would jump for joy that it took 6 YEARS for a regular muffler to rot off, especially up in Buffalo.
I haven't had to replace a muffler on my last three cars going back to my 1994 Cadillac DeVille. I think modern exhaust systems are aluminized or stainless or something. I changed the system on my 1989 Cadillac Brougham last October after 18+ years.
Six years for an exhaust system on a 1970s car in Buffalo is phenomenal. I think he's just reaching to find bad things to say about domestic cars like the oil kept wearing out every 3K-4K miles or the gasoline kept disappearing when he ran the car. Perhaps he really only did replace things that are normal wear items on his Hondas......like transmissions.
There is a pattern. A number of the people complaining bought used cars when they started. They had used GMs or others. Then they bought a new this or that foreign brand and had the typical few troubles, especially if they took it back to the dealer like the deal wants them to do so that minor things can be fixed while it's in for service. That fits the time frame from the purchasers who started to buy foreign in the late 80s and early 90s. They hit the sweet spot.
I was noticing my muffler on the 11-year old Buick. Darn thing is starting to show some black around the seam on the bottom. It might only last another 5-10 years.
"...it took 6 YEARS for a regular muffler to rot off..."
I'm also in upstate NY and the muffler on my 1997 Chrysler (original) is doing fine at 104K. If the rest of the car lasts like the muffler and exhaust system I'll be VERY happy.
BTW, my "Japanese" Mitsubishi was built in IL. by the UAW. I hope it lasts as long as my Chrysler.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Comments
I am so glad to be out of that back-biting den of inequity they call Boeing's. The union does little to help you when its time to distribute pink slips, yet, don't try and withhold your union dues for one month. Then there's news happenin' boys.
And you guys didn't think socialism was alive and well in the U.S.? Protect those slackers and take dues and strike for your collective bargaining stake. It's all a crock. :sick:
Glad to be burning to a crisp in the Arizona desert instead.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Democrats and Republicans have so far been unable to compromise on a solution to the state's $15.2 billion budget deficit for the fiscal year that started July 1. As the stalemate continued, Schwarzenegger has ratcheted up his rhetoric.
Spokesman Aaron McLear said the Republican governor is contemplating signing an executive order next week that would pay about 200,000 state workers the federal minimum wage, which is $1.45 an hour less than California's minimum wage.
The Service Employees International Union, which represents nearly half the affected workers, was considering legal action to try to block the move, spokesman Jim Zamora said.
"We're victims of this budget crisis. It's not our fault that the state Legislature and Governor Schwarzenegger can't come together to pass a balanced budget," he said.
The union represents about 95,000 clerical, office and civilian workers throughout the state.
No mention of cutting his and the legislatures salaries..Our governor is a total MORON. How about just not paying welfare and medicaid. Why pick on the WORKERS?
When the feds come to loggerheads over budget matters, they don't defer maintenance on some building somewhere to save a few bucks. They close the Washington Monument.
The UAW is well versed in selective work actions that cause the most pain in the shortest time aren't they? The recent Traverse job action for example.
Guys,
I still have the 2004' Chevrolet Impala, my ex wife to be forged my name on and I'm still paying for. It's a constant reminder of how she screwed me over. Yeah going on 16 months and still not divorced with no assests to divide. Isn't the state of Texas, justicial system just wonderful ???
Well getting back to the car, I want to dump it and get something cheaper. Mom, is going to co-sign for me since my ex has trashed my credit with all her forgery's. I'm thinking about switching to a Buick Riveria. I found a 97' White Riveria with only 55K on it for $6,987 in Illinois. I think the Riveria/Aurora route is the direction I'm leaning torwards. I obviously want a solid, union made, GM automobile that is inexpensive, gets high 20's + hwy mpg's. I believe I will break even on the Impala, since it gets good gas mileage and have checked the local market. Any suggestions ???? :surprise:
-Rocky
Michigan, will blossom one day again.
I guess we could run our state like Dubya, does Washington and bleed red ink just to attract employers. I would rather pay the bills now. Ya know "pay as we go" or does that logic not exist anymore ???
I wished the VW plant would of came to Michigan, but ol' well....They keep all their good technology in Europe, and give us the bare bones. (Read that in this or last months automobile magazine via the article on the VW CC) :surprise:
I don't expect VW, to be around much longer anyways.
"The Rock"
Yeah, but they could hire me to run it for them !!! I would buy the presidency. I'd reverse all free trade laws, GATT/WTO, would be given a noose and a trap door to stand on as lemko would say !!!
All imports would be tariffed, and all government, military weapons, would be union made here in the U.S. unlike they are now.
So yeah, it could be done but the current laws on the books need to be changed in order to not only save GM, but to save this country !!!! :sick:
"The Rock"
This is ridiculous !!! :surprise:
Back when I worked at JCI, it wasn't a bad non-union company to work for but by the time I left it got worse and now it just plain stinks !!!
"The Rock"
The reason is it eliminates favoritism. I use to think the same as you grbeck, but I witnessed favoritism and a good person lost his job based on accusations.
-Rocky
I would like to have one of those too!
Chances are good that most Americans would pay the same or more for a well built quality automobile from one of the big 3. Especially those of us that are now seniors and remember the Junk that invaded our shores.
In days of yore we would buy a new Big 3 car and had a 3-4 month 3000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and a 1 year 12K mile drive train warranty and a new car smell. The foreign invader hit our shores and didn't really offer any better, but they cost less and got slightly better mileage.
Big difference is that, especially the Japanese, kept improving the "quality" of their offerings and built cars that would go 100K with few problems. The big 3 just kept building the same ole same ole. And the UAW made sure their workers were living large! When the Big 3 management finally understood they were being out classed and their ship was sinking, they had a major HOLE. Labor cost and strikes. Bumper stickers like "Buy American" didn't help much.
And yes, the Big 3 management got bigger and bigger raises for incompetence.
Just don't think there is any way the union made vehicles can compete, quality wise, as long as their labor cost and salaries are more than double that of their Asian competition.
An earlier post that showed the Best Buy in used cars listed virtually every make and model of foreign cars with the exception of VW. There was 1 Buick and 2 Lincolns in that list. The Worse Buys were from the big 3 and VW. Chances of finding a quality solid used UAW built vehicle are slim.
Even if the Big 3 started building the best cars in the world, tomorrow, it would be years before the buying public believed it. Their best bet is to start offering something with a unbeatable warranty that just can't be gotten anywhere else.
How about a plug in electric car with a 60 mph top speed and 100 mile range for the urban commuters at a reasonable price. Something the size of a Civic or Escort. Most commuters don't drive more than 50 mile round trips to work or the store. And none of the auto manufacturers are offering them anything "different".
GM and the others are going to "Re Think" their place in the market and offer serious alternatives, or move their facilities off shore. Wishful thinking and Obama aren't going to change that unless there are government monies involved. :sick:
Kip
LOL - I wish my union wages were double that of the US Asian transplant workers - I could have retired in 15 years instead of 30.
And my UAW built car that I bought last fall is holding up quite nicely. I wouldn't trade it for an import in a minute.
Just go to your GM dealer and do some test driving. I'd suggest a Malibu. Or an Aura.
Instead of ridiculing anything done by GM or UAW from the past, we should try looking at the half full instead of half empty. If you want to use half empty start with the VCM discussion and the Camry problems here. You'll find the popular companies that didn't have long-standing contracts from a labor union, have their share of problems now too as they try to operate within the same economic constraints as GM has been operating.
>Even if the Big 3 started building the best cars in the world, tomorrow, it would be years before the buying public believed it.
On that we agree. There are people who try to put in their hate speech toward GM or whatever they perceive is GM related to vent some kind of need for power or a hate. As I said above the same kind of talk is showing up in discussions where people have problems with the cars I mentioned earlier. All car companies have problems with cars, but in 2003 I noted that the trend toward mediocrity had started for Honda in the Accord.
One thing I can fault GM and the UAW for is not being proactive in advertising and using the internet to counter the negative talk about problematic cars in the past or the not problematic cars of the present. Other companies have tried to use the internet to their advantage; I've even seen what might have been and have heard about attempts to close discussions that were negative toward a company and to put out positive counter messages when there is talk about a problem existing in a vehicle within their group. And again the lack of use of internet techniques on the part of GM and the UAW come from their old school habits and techniques; a change which has to be made now to leave those behind.
Interesting is the foreign makers' use of temporaries in their plants now rather than employing people. When the first plants were being built here out of necessity politically, the talk was about just like Japan, jobs-for-life just like they do it in Japan... now Georgetown is at reality. They want workers they don't have to keep next week.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Peace Dallasdude
Anyway, if you can find one in good condition, I highly recommend a 1988-90 Buick Park Avenue or LeSabre. The car is extremely reliable, very fuel-efficient, and quite durable. I bought the car as a winter beater with the expectation that it would only last a year or so. Here it is three years later and I can't kill it. The A/C still even blows ice cold air.
Your predicament brings up another problem with the way things are in this country. I wouldn't dare get married these days unless they outlawed divorce. The guy always seems to get royally screwed in the end. I warn all young guys not to even consider it as I see it as a reckless and self-destructive act with the law favoring the woman regardless of her behavior. I had a co-worker whose wife was cheating on him with somebody she met on the internet. He gets kicked out of his house and his wife turned his kids against him. If she did that to me, I'd be posting from a supermax prison right now.
My own thoughts on this auto business is that the BIG 3 are seeking a govt bail-out. Even Toyota and Honda are losing sleep over the big sleeping giant that is awaking. They are dreaming, its more like a nightmare. China will do a dump on the auto markets of the world. They will sell below cost, until their competition has to close its doors or is at a disadvantage. Then they will be the only/biggest supplier. Japan at one time sold for less in order to increase market share. This is nothing new. If you suggest that autos and or any goods can be manufactured overseas, then shipped across the ocean and still sold for less than something manufactured domestically, your just not a realist. Labor is a big factor in the sale price, however, not the only factor.
While all the anti-union points are valid to a point. Fact and reality is that these Big 3 and the imports are big multinationals which have a big stake in China. They have invested billions and all the while expanded overseas and seek bail outs domestically. They have traded American jobs to appease the China. All they want is a piece of the market in China. China is expected to be the number one consumer nation by 2025. Right now we hold that position and are the market for their goods. Japan is number two and Germany is number three.
Make no mistake about it. When you go to Walmart and or anywhere your American purchasing power elects which companies/countries will grow and thrive. If you are unaware that China was the number two purchaser of autos, behind America, last year. This status was attained and fueled by Americans buying their products in Walmart stores and else where. They are now competing with us for fuel for those autos. Capitalism has price as the rationing mechanism for fuel.
So now how good were those prices at Walmart? Were they worth it? Japan as a nation tends to spend most of their income on vacations and fashion. These folks in China like autos and have just begun. Its no secret that the majority of China is below middle class and hence the sleeping giant and its a fifth of the earths population. My estimate is that 5% or 10% of the total impact is what were seeing/experiencing.
I'm not opposed to growth, but not so fast, and a planned growth. We have to stop this madness. If you don't like the union, change it. Get elected or find some way of expressing your ideal union. Tell your children the same, grow up, get an education and change it. Griping is only the first step to change.
Peace Dallasdude
I think all Rivieras are supercharged therefore they have the metal upper intake manifold. Howevery some later SSEIs and ParkAve ultras have had lower intake manifold gaskets start leaking, allegedly from deterioration due to the first DexCool formula and leaving DexCool in longer than 2 years.
A neighbor has an Aurora and the technology is a step ahead of its time, but with the concurrent problem of being more difficult to work on the ShortStar and other things.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That brings us back to perception, and perception, in the eyes of the buyer, is their reality...whether it is fools like me who remember the junk of 15-30 years ago, or folks who just see the imports as better, that perception is bringing down the Big 3...and it is up to THEM to change that perception...blame the union, blame mgmt, blame noncaring dealers, it still means that many buyers will not consider a Big 3 car...
The simple sad part is that for those who were burned, it isn't ancient history for them, it is the memory of a very expensive purchase that was junk...and those memories will not fade easily, esp when the imports are now here as alternatives...and that is the way it is...
I still get a kick out of that part of the dialogue in "Back to the Future" when Marty McFly is back in 1955 and setting up the video camera to show Doc Brown:
Marty: "Something's wrong, it doesn't work."
Doc Brown: (looking) "Well, no wonder it doesn't work, it's made in Japan."
Marty: What do you mean, Doc, the best stuff is made in Japan?!"
:P
What's interesting is that many of the people have had trouble with foreign brands, but they are very forgiving of those. How do you feel about that? As an attorney you deal with people and delve into their psyches. What do you get about forgiveness about the shortcomings of foreign cars as they regress toward the mean especially midsize as in Accord and Camry?
I agree it's been GM's battle to change the attitude and they could have been much more proactive. Same for UAW. A lot of the money that could have gone to offensive PR has gone for top salaries and retirements as well as worker pay. The UAW hasn't helped by striking the Malibu plant and American Axle.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
DETROIT, July 25 (Reuters) - American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc on Friday posted a steep quarterly loss due to a strike by its union workers and plunging U.S. sales of trucks and SUVs for which it supplies parts.
American Axle cut its dividend and said it would sell up to $50 million in assets to shore up liquidity for worker buyouts and a restructuring in response to U.S. auto sales it said could drop by over 3 million units from 2007 levels.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7679025
We know about Toy sludge problems, and Honda had a problem (which escapes me at the moment), but was that as broad and wide as, say, many years (70s-90s???) of Big 3 debacles...IMO, probably not, as the rep for import quality still seems to be quite intact, with some major (nonfatal) problems, but Big 3 quality had years of deterioration, and I think just the sheer time span has given the Big 3 the bad rep and placed them on the defensive, maybe permanently...
BTW, while I do deal with clients' psyches, not as much as you might think...yes, I often console a bankruptcy client who, literally, breaks down crying (men and women) at the mess they have gotten themselves into...or auto accident clients will sometimes have deep resentment against the person who injured them...but the most counseling, IMO, happens with divorce clients, especially the victim, who deeply resents the other spouse for finding someone new, or just being bored with them...I do not do divorce now, but maybe soon to get into it...
The problems with GMs in the seventies and eighties really had to be experienced to be believed. Everything that could go wrong did. CV joints breaking, hoses bursting, muffler falling off, you name it, it happened. I distinctly remembering driving back from a repair shop in 1982 in a 1976 Buick and having the muffler fall off in the middle of the street. I was so disgusted that I parked the car and left it there for a week.
My one regression to American-made, Chrysler, in 1995 was duly rewarded with a fire behind the dashboard when my wife started up the car one morning with my baby daughter in the car seat.
My first Honda was a revelation - no repairs whatsoever the five years of ownership. While my 22 years of Hondas/Acuras haven't been trouble-free, virtually every issue I've had with them is simply one of wear and tear - tires, breaks, wipers, etc. Never any transmission problems, A/C compressors breaking down, etc., other than those stupid automatic doors on the Odyssey, which needed adjustment every six months - which the Honda dealer always did for no charge.
To summarize: it's a lot easier to "forgive" the imports' problems because wear and tear is to be expected. Major life threatening mechanical problems are not.
And as for my father, his business went under as the auto plants shut down, so he moved to Florida, bought his first Toyota, and finally admitted that GM is getting was it deserved.
The simple sad part is that for those who were burned, it isn't ancient history for them, it is the memory of a very expensive purchase that was junk...and those memories will not fade easily, esp when the imports are now here as alternatives...and that is the way it is...
You could not have said it better! It isn't ancient history at all, but painful, expensive memories. I was very forgiving with our new Dodge (jun)K-car (more trouble than all the cars I've owned put together) then it was a chevrolet. The thought of looking at one of the big 3 has NEVER remotely crossed our minds.... 2nd time Hell freezes over we may look at one... but no sooner.
So whether you blame management or the UAW, I just don't know see how GM and Ford are going to survive.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121676821087175231.html
The one big issue I had with Honda was - this is what Bob (marsha) was trying to remember - on Odyssey automatic transmission. Went at about 65K on an 02 Ody. It was replaced quickly and free by Honda. They picked up my rental as well. Didn't cost me a dime. I replaced that Ody with a CPO 04 which has been flawless. I've had three Accords that have been no trouble. Current one has 153K on it. The 85 was at 144K when someone in a Caddy Cimmaron t-boned it and an 80 Accord that made it to 167K.
I've had a couple of Nissans that were not up to the Honda standard but quite reliable.
There are others but let's cut to my last two American nameplates (I call on teh nameplates because neither of my American cars were built in the US while three of my Hondas were). I had a 1998 Chrysler Sebring convertible that was trouble free. I had to sell it because the family grew too big so I didn't get to test it past say 60 K which I always thing of as a milestone for a car to get through. It was made in Mexico.
My 1995 Windstall was everyting that sent people flying to Japanese makes. Every seal you could think of popped on that sucker. Every one of them involved dropping the engine and Ford would not consider even a tiny bit of responsibility. They were by far the worst customer service folks I've ever run into. As soon as I replaced the last seal the transmission went to the tune of an $1,800 rebuild. At that point we no longer viewed the vehicle as something one could depend on to get from point A to point B.
on to topic - I can't blame the UAW (or the CAW) for the problems. They were all design flaws and things that the manufacturer did not consider worthy of redesign until forced by public exposure. It would take a lot for me to ever consider Ford again.
This is exactly what I was posting about earlier. A lot of folks will not, or can not afford to, take a chance on another Big 3 vehicle. At least not any time soon.
They (the Big 3) spent years teaching us that their main concern was pushing their hardware out the door and letting the customer deal with the problems. We learned!
The CR article naming the Best 3-9 year old cars, and the worst 3-9 year old cars reflected reported problems. They weren't talking about vehicles of the distance past. They were comparing recently manufactured vehicles.
For the B3 to say "We've seen the light", and expect the buying public to come charging back, is expecting a bit much. With the exception of those that will vote for Obama and believe Words rather than actions.
J.D. Powers often list a B3 vehicle as "Best in Initial Quality", but for some reason that falls apart a few Thousand miles down the road.
My first GM car was a '52 Chevy that I purchased in '59 or '60. There was a long long list of Chevys and Pontiacs over the years. And back then they were as reliable and maybe more so than the imports that were trickling in. The last 2 from GM were an '87 Cutlass with the 3.8 liter V6 and and an 87 Astro with the same engine. What pieces of crap they were! Pretty disappointing since it cost me a lot of money to get out of them and now watching my GM "Prefered" stock at a very low.
Last B3 was a 98 Ram.
When CR, or the like, publish list of 3-5 year old cars and B3 vehicles are on the "Best Buy" list, I will definitely consider one. Until then, no thanks. I'm not willing and can't afford to be a Ginny Pig and "Tester" for them at my expense any longer.
Big 3 ships are sinking with all hands aboard. The UAW had best start helping to get them high in the water again, rather that drilling more holes.
Kip
I personally own three Big 3 vehicles and would not have bought them if they were junk. None of them have fallen apart after the first several thousand miles. Perhaps they were not built by the UAW on a Friday.
As long as the UAW continues to put out a quality product I will continue to purchase what they build.
As an aside, this past year my parents recently purchased a new Ford Taurus X which they love. CR also gave it a very good rating. If I'm not mistaken a Ford is a Big 3 model.
Yes, I will continue to blame import guides like CR. Quality interior, quiet drive, etc., all describe my recent Sebring Limited purchase. People who have ridden in it comment on how smooth and quiet it is. Who would have thought that it was built by the UAW in Sterling Heights, MI. Certainly not CR, I'm sure.
"About these lists"
"The lists on these pages are compiled from overall reliability data covering 1998-2007 models with above-average or much-below-average reliability. CR Good Bets and Bad Bets include only the models for which we have sufficient data for at least three model years. Models that were brand-new in 2006 or 2007 do not appear. Problems with the engine major, engine cooling, transmission major, and drive system were weighted more heavily than other problems."
BEST OF THE BEST
These are models that have performed well in CR road tests over the years, and have proved to have several or more years of better-than-average reliability. Listed alphabetically.
Acura Integra, Acura MDX, Acura RL, Acura RSX, Acura TL, Acura TSX
BMW M3
Buick LaCrosse
Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Honda Civic Hybrid, Honda CR-V, Honda Element
Honda Odyssey, Honda Pilot, Honda S2000
Infiniti FX, Infiniti G20, Infiniti G35, Infiniti I30, I35, Infiniti QX4
Lexus ES, Lexus ES, Lexus GS (RWD), Lexus GX, Lexus IS, Lexus LS
Lexus RX, Lexus SC
Lincoln Continental, Lincoln Town Car
Mazda Millenia, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Mazda Protegé, Mazda3
Mitsubishi Endeavor, Mitsubishi Outlander
Nissan Altima, Nissan Maxima, Nissan Murano
Pontiac Vibe,
Porsche 911 (except '03)
Scion tC, Scion xB
Subaru Baja, Subaru Forester, Subaru Impreza, Subaru Legacy,
Subaru Outback
Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Camry (except '07 V6)
Toyota Camry Solara, Toyota Celica, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Echo
Toyota Highlander, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Matrix, Toyota Prius
Toyota RAV4, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota Sienna, Toyota Tundra (except '07 V8 4WD)
Volvo S60
WORST OF THE WORST
"These vehicles showed multiple Used Car Verdicts that were much worse than average, according to our survey respondents. They consistently had more problems than other models overall."
Buick Rendezvous (AWD), Buick Terraza
Chevrolet Astro, Chevrolet Blazer, Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), Chevrolet S-10 Pickup (4WD), Chevrolet Uplander, Chevrolet Venture,
Chrysler Town & Country (AWD), Dodge Grand Caravan (AWD)
GMC Canyon (4WD), GMC Jimmy, GMC S-15 Sonoma (4WD), GMC Safari
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Kia Sedona
Land Rover Discovery, LR3
Lincoln Aviator
Mercedes-Benz SL
Nissan Armada (4WD), Nissan Titan (4WD)
Oldsmobile Bravada, Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Aztek
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Montana, Trans Sport, Montana SV6
Saturn Relay
Volkswagen Cabriolet
Volkswagen Jetta Sedan (turbo)
Volkswagen Jetta Sedan (V6)
Volkswagen Touareg
There are some who still try to quelch talk about Toyota's sludging which Toyota resisted admitting was a design flaw and then finally gave in. A Toyota with sludge was brought up in one of their discussions a day ago so it's not a gone problem. We have all the Toyotas with shifting or engine or software problems. Even CR had to unrecommend the Camry V6. Must have hurt them bad.
I asked marsha7 about the psychology involved in the GM hatred which with halo effect includes the UAW; many people suffer floating anger (to wit blaming others for their home bankruptcy these days). A few people take that as a catharsis moment for their problems from the past when they bought used cars and blamed the manufacturer for all the troubles or had a muffler fall off on the way back from a repair shop--aggravating, but not GM. The posts indicating a lot of the attitudes are shaped by the import magazines fawning over them after their initials decades of rustaway econoboxes like media faces on a world tour with Osama were on point.
The point is what does GM have to do? What does UAW have in this now?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Likewise, those who have become Honda or Toyota people aren't going to change overnight. They'll either have to get burned pretty good by the product or have a big 3 car out there than dazzles to the point of drawing them in.
There's actually not much the UAW can do at this point other than not striking at the plants that hold out their chance at survival and to be open to taking good, honest looks at the numbers when the manufacturer says they can't afford what the union wants in a contract. That and be super diligent on the job.
The Big 3 are capable of building the cars people want. They better do so quickly.
Supposed to be on the top side!
Regards,
OW
The Big three are riddled with bullet holes!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Rest is JUNK.
Sorry, USA devotees. My perception seems to be shared with many more folks out there.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Funny thing, both my girlfriend and I are in our early 40s and we'd buy nothing but GM.
I'm very happy with my latest GM vehicle - a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance - my FIFTH Cadillac!
Appearance?!?!? The imports already lost me there! They are either as bland as unflavored low-fat ice milk or look like alien space insects! Anything that's remotely attractive (European) is more trouble than being married to a heroin-addicted Vegas showgirl.
Maybe they mean cars like this
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ha, I like that last line.
To each their own my friend. Personally, the only Medium 3 cars my wife and I like the appearance of are the Enclave (gorgeous), Lucerne, MKX, CTS/DTS. Before those models we hadn't liked the look of a car made by the Medium 3 in almost two decades. Back in the 60s they made so many neat looking cars. And then three decades of blech. Now, they seem to have turned the corner. I really think Bob Lutz has a knack for making cars that look like what folks want.
I'd put the looks of my Infiniti up against any Medium 3 sedan made in the last twenty years. Beats them all, hands down.
If this happened in 1982, I would think you would jump for joy that it took 6 YEARS for a regular muffler to rot off, especially up in Buffalo.
Six years for an exhaust system on a 1970s car in Buffalo is phenomenal. I think he's just reaching to find bad things to say about domestic cars like the oil kept wearing out every 3K-4K miles or the gasoline kept disappearing when he ran the car. Perhaps he really only did replace things that are normal wear items on his Hondas......like transmissions.
I was noticing my muffler on the 11-year old Buick. Darn thing is starting to show some black around the seam on the bottom. It might only last another 5-10 years.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm also in upstate NY and the muffler on my 1997 Chrysler (original) is doing fine at 104K. If the rest of the car lasts like the muffler and exhaust system I'll be VERY happy.
BTW, my "Japanese" Mitsubishi was built in IL. by the UAW. I hope it lasts as long as my Chrysler.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible