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Posts 3247-3252 simply make my point...does EVERY Big 3 buyer get burned???...no, of course not...some folks buy great cars that last a long time, and they are repeat buyers, whether Caddy, Buick or whatever...and I hope you continue to buy good Big 3 cars...
But for those who dispute what I say, they almost sound as tho they cannot believe that anybody was burned in the past, and those prevously numbered posts are EXACTLY the kind of people I am talking about, except they now probably number in the millions...do I have exact numbers???...no...but the Big 3 market share has dropped over the last 2-3 decades because of posts like those above...and, IMO, the 70s and 80s are NOT ancient history, as people's Big 3 experiences from then WILL affect their purchases today, whether their own, or the purchases of their kids...the business exec in Dallas who said that of 40 cars, only two are domestic, that is what I see as the wave of the future...
And, for those who are Big 3 loyalists, regardless of what you say, there ARE many folks who have been badly burned and will never return to a domestic car...obviously, there are enough Big 3 buyers that Big 3 are still in business, and big businesses there are...
But the winds have been changing, and it ain't looking good for the Big 3...while these posts are not a scientific sample, the number of people who have abandoned Big 3 cars, if I was a Big 3 exec, would scare me, esp as I look to the future for the survival of my company...
It does seem that the folks who have been burned by Big 3 can name numerous vehicles they had over years that were junk, the import buyers have a few models/problems that were lemons, but the imports simply do not have the rep for so much junk like the Big 3 do...
You can dispute me all you want...I am only summarizing the info that is apparent to anyone...better to dispute the other posters who experiences are the specific examples of what I am summarizing...tell THEM that their experiences with BIg 3 junk were unique, and I would bet that they have friends and family with identical experiences to theirs...that is who you need to argue with, not me...
As far as Michigan giving tax breaks to movie companies, that is what you get when Democrats are in control...nobody understands capitalism, they just think jobs come from heaven...
I only hope rocky gets out of Michigan soon, or he will go down with the state...it is great to have a positive attitude, but even the captain of the Titanic had to admit, at some time, that it did not look like the ship would make it to port...I hope his futile union rah-rah does not take him down with the rest of the state...
had a really grave look on his face, according to James Cameron's version of the stroy, anyway. Basically we're doomed and you'd better be a woman or a child or...rich like Billy Zane. Then hope you don't lose your fortune on the stock market collapse of the late 20's. Great story, the Titanic.
"Actually, we're gonna go faster. I've fired up the last 6 boilers!" exclaims Captain Smith as some decide whether to have another strong drink or just wait around for the inevitable.
Insert the Big 3 here for the Titanic.
High ghastly prices?!!
"I've just ordered the Hummer factories to produce at thrice the rate!" Broccoli stuck in their teeth and all. Oh, well.
Hey, rock, ya gonna move on down here to Arizona and build solar-generated electric rigs with me? Let's start up our own company, man. :surprise:
Please get out before the lifeboats run out...everything is against you up there...politics in Mich is anti-business and will get worse with Democrats running the show...the UAW is dead, but with a respirator it does not yet KNOW it is dead beause it appears to be breathing to the untrained eye...Big 3 is/are rapidly becoming the Medium 3 or Little 3...
Get out now, unless you intend to run a hotel in Traverse City...beautiful state for scenery, but not for real business...
If you want, I could talk to the powers that be in GA, and we MAY let you live here...just NEVER mention the U-word (UNION) outside your bedroom, and you will be allowed to live...
the point by marsha7 has been made. But some of the people are very rabid in their punitive attitudes, to the point of points several messages at a time. I am reading the complaints by some owners in two popular foreign car discussions. They too are getting some very rabid statements that never again..., or after 2 others and now this treatment, or... Other than a few people who got buybacks starting in 2003 till now I've not seen that kind of emotion. Even I swore long ago I'd never own another Ford because of engineering deficiencies over years culminating with timing chain gear early wear. Indeed I traded it the very evening I picked it up from the dealer for an Oldsmobile on order which was being delivered by the truck as I consummated the paperwork that evening. I lived happily ever after. I did have to eat my words because I won a Ford a few years later--but I didn't buy it.
However I have kept tabs on what they offered and if I saw something that made me tingle enough, I would whip out my checkbook. Some of the Mustangs in a very standard style have almost..., but I decided two were enough. But a bright red convertible.... And I don't spend my time going to the Ford forums telling them about the crappy motors and engineering through the years... or how the rear suspension wasn't tightened to specs... or how the motor wore early when I didn't change the oil enough... or the tires on the front wearing out on the edges at 80,000 mi because of the high camber on turns they built into the steering geometry... or the etc... :shades:
The point is what does GM have to do? What does UAW have in this now?
Certainly a lot of GM's problems are not due to the UAW; management has been dismal as well. I'll tell you what could help change public perception:
Is the UAW smart enough to realize that their behaviors have been contributing to the flight to imports? Do you think most Americans want to buy expensive goods from unions who whine about their generous retirement packages, about losing their job banks, about why they shouldn't make even more money for many jobs that are very menial and take little to no skills? I don't think so, or they wouldn't be striking American Axle. The UAW is cutting their own throats and they're not bright enough to realize that.
If the UAW had some sense, they would know that the poor quality of cars and poor design, poor interior materials, etc., are driving away business --- which will soon enough mean their jobs. Why aren't they raising a huge fuss when a new vehicle is poorly designed?...when what they are building is ugly, unrefined, has a shoddy interior?
If I heard about a UAW strike where they were refusing to manufacture a POS vehicle (the newest Grand Cherokee comes to mind, as I have rented one), then I'd have a lot more respect for the UAW. The UAW needs to be fighting for MY right to have a very high quality car from one of the Big Three. Why should I be patriotic to a union that's not providing ME any value at all? And I don't see them doing anything like that. They just whine about more entitlements to build junk. If they want a good job that's going to have some security, then I suggest they diversify their complaints a bit and start worrying about what normal Americans are worrying about. And it's not the UAW retirement plans!
If I heard about a UAW strike where they were refusing to manufacture a POS vehicle
You make a valid argument. When GMC started using paper thin sheet metal in their PU trucks why didn't the UAW strike? They only strike to benefit themselves. It had to be obvious to the guy shutting the door on my 2005 GMC PU that it did not fit well. If it was a design fault, which I believe it was. Why didn't they tell the shop steward I am not going to put my name on this POC? My four GM trucks and Suburban built in Mexico and Canada were better vehicles. I would not blame that on the UAW. I do think they would garner more sympathy from mainstream America if their strikes were not so blatantly aimed at kicking a crippled car maker.
Hell, the UAW used to sabotage vehicles. Nothing like opening the passenger door and finding that they only put it one with a couple barely tightened bolts or that the window wasn't secured in its track so it fell in when you rolled it down, irrespective of design shortcuts. Of course, the Big 3 did do things like run the old R.K. LeBlond boring bars and crankshaft lathes until the toolheads were worn well past spec, then use grinding compound and a heavy duty electric motor to get the engines to turn over freely, all without any UAW "help."
However, some buyers are more easily satisfied than others. I've driven a couple almost new rental cars on business recently, made by Chrysler, before they really had a chance to get beaten up, and I was seriously unimpressed by either driving dynamics or the fit and finish.
I've also had people tell me how great their Big 3 car is and how it's better than any import, only to find they've replaced a transmission or had the engine rebuilt before they got to 100,000 miles, sometimes well before. The barber I had when I lived in St. Louis was one of these. He loved his Chevy Astro and told me how great it was, only to tell me he had the transmission rebuilt at 85,000. :confuse:
Certainly a lot of GM's problems are not due to the UAW; management has been dismal as well. I'll tell you what could help change public perception:
Although I do blame much of the Big 3 woes on the unions, one cannot blame it all on them. I do not have the "exact" figures, but I believe GM lost somewhere in the 15-20 billion dollar range last year; their stock fell 19 percent in value; and they are getting ready to close four factories. And the kicker is ---- the CEO got a 64 percent pay raise!!! How much would he have received if they turned a profit?? He is paid to "lead" the company.... maybe he is leading it in the wrong direction. One can't expect the CEOs to be visionaries? Well, what does one get from them for their salaries? Perhaps GM needs a little help here. It probably isn't a state secret and I do not expect any money from the CEO, but here's a hint that may go a long way for Mr. Mullaley (and the other two): What do people want in a car?..... hummmm... Safe, reliable, and fuel efficient should get you somewhere. It seems to work for the imports....
Honda did have problems with some models of transmissions. However they recognized it and stepted up to the plate.
They were replacing them, free, with "Improved" ones even though the factory warranty was no longer in effect. They also extended the transmission warranty to 100K miles on all models that may have been affected.
On the other hand, my mother at age 75 bought a new Explorer. She is religious about maintenance. At approximately 60K the tranny had to be replaced. At 90K+ it had to be replaced again. She got to pay $3000 the first time and $3500 the second time. Several folks we know had similar problems with Ford trannys at around 60K. I believe that without exception, every one of those folks got rid of those vehicles. As one guy said , "The transmission was just icing on the cake of a long bad experience".
My son's late 90s Suburban tranny crapped out at somewhere around 55K. He had an extended warranty that picked up "Most" of the $3500 repair bill but didn't supply a rental car. He got rid of it shortly there afterwards. He said, "The thing was just a bag of snakes". To be fair, I have a friend with a Jeep Cherokee old style with the inline 6. My son, that got rid of the Suburban, has a 99 "Loaded" V8 Grand Cherokee he bought used. Both now have well over 200K on original drive trains.
Our last GM "Car" was an '87 Olds Cutlass Calais. It was plagued with sensor problems and occasionally killing the engine after a left hand turn. We got rid of it at 75K when we were looking at Major engine work, a transmission replacement, and the paint was flaking off the hood, top, and trunk lid. Traded it for a new '95 Maxima and only saw the dealer when normal service was due. Traded that at 75K for a new '03 CR-V and only had 1 problem. The AC compressor self destructed after warranty, and Honda fixed it free, and supplied a loaner. We have an extended warranty, but the dealer said Honda fixed it without involving the EW.
I had 2 Dodge Rams since the '87 Olds. Still trying to "Buy American". The 96 squeaked and rattled and always felt like a tire was out of balance. Dealer got tired of listening to me whine and offered a deal I couldn't refuse for a "New and Improved" '98 model. The '98 steering column had to be replaced and the new steering column was defective, so I got to spend a second day there. "No Loaner". It also developed a poor throttle response. Service writer said it was likely due to air leaks around the intake manifold. It was a manufacturing flaw they were aware of and could probably get fixed under warranty. Got rid of that puppy for a '03 Honda Pilot.
The Pilot has had a few recalls, but they were done during normal service visits.
Point is, that any make of car can develop a problem. How the manufacturers and dealer handle it is what counts to me. The "Imports" appear to actually care about customer satisfaction. As with the Honda trany problems. They identified it, fixed it, and helped the customer. Most of the B3 vehicles have been having automatic tranny problems for years. With the attitude of, "Well, everything wears out"!
A poster above said something like, " The imports have problems, but they are fixed while the vehicle is in for service and the customer doesn't know there was a problem". Isn't that refreshing!
Some very good views and arguments going back and forth. Very spirited, the only way too exchange infomration IMO.
I'm a working adult taking night classes at Ursinus College in PA. Current project is a term paper on Microeconomics. I have an idea where I think I can take the paper but need allot of statistics from the last 20 years or so. I think we all agree detroit has its hands full. looking for linkage to stats on how many works +/- the UAW has since the heyday of Detroit. How many jobs were lost? Bottom lines of automakers? Role of immigration. Role of outsourcing. Foreign investment from Ford, Gm and such in other countries.
Any unbiased fact only information would be appreciated.
My goal is to fast forward 10 years and see where Detroit is as teh auto hub of teh US.
>How the manufacturers and dealer handle it is what counts to me
I'm still trying to figure out the Accord transmissions being replaced free (good), and everyone being very happy that Honda extends the warranty to 100,000 mi. Aren't those supposed to be the cars that last 400,000 with only oil changes? There's a disconnect. People posted about repeat failures (did they use an improved replacement?); what about the failure that somes after 100,000 mi. It's on the owner for the defective or deficient transmission.
>they are fixed while the vehicle is in for service and the customer doesn't know there was a problem
The joke is that the cars in that era are the ones upon which people based their belief that the foreign cars were problem-free. In reality they were having things fixed (good) without the owner knowing it (bad) during the mandatory service visits, prefereably with the owner leaving the car for service. A coworker found his car with something on the motor being replaced during an early visit in his Camry wagon's life. Later the rear brakes were being replaced early (e.g., 20,000 or sooner) on a service visit. He has no misconceptions that his Camry was perfect from the factory. However he liked the repairs done by the company (GM could take notice of where to spend money for customer PR--fix things); that works better than waiting for class action suits to meander through the system as a stall to repairing (Toyota had the same thing with sludge problems.).
The imports have problems, but they are fixed while the vehicle is in for service and the customer doesn't know there was a problem". Isn't that refreshing!
Absolutely! With GM, you need to be a better mechanic than the ones employed at the dealers. Our last visit, covered by an extended warranty, was for a battery drain condition cloaked by the statement on the service ticket "seat switch stuck on". Give me a break.
In the future, buying a GM, Ford or Chrysler is very risky because of their precarious situation. You will need a PhD in Automotive Sciences to go with your purchase because the odds are dealers will close and bankruptcies will form, negating all support services.
What about the manner in that Toyota went about fixing the engine sludge problem? It took a 5 year class action suit to bring any action. Then they still cling onto that verb-age "they are not admitting to anything".
Can you run the risk with this manufacturer? They denied, denied, and denied. Fact is that those Toyota's back in the late seventies were more like Porsche's. Porsche business is 70% consultation. The 79 Celica with a tagra band, enormous pistons, massive crank, and a bit roomier in the passenger compartment, reeks of German engineering. These were the 300,000 mile cars/cheap to keep cars. I have doubt that these new Toyota's will stand the test of time. Germans aren't into front wheel drive as a general rule. So buyer beware and do your homework.
The high end cars get the stainless exhaust. Acura does and Honda doesn't. Then too I've seen some rear drum brakes on Honda's and the same model/platform Acura with disc on the rear. I don't see any savings in them installing drums on a autos rear. Materials are about the same and in fact the moving parts are fewer in the disc. Disc brakes enjoy superior cooling too. There is over a hundred feet difference in the stopping distance between the two braking systems. So the poor man who has a Honda wouldn't get the same braking power that the rich Acura owner. This has changed since the Kia and Hyundai have come into the auto manufacturing arena.
It should be noted that Honda and Acura are the same company. Nissan and Infinity are the same also and Toyota and Lexus are the same. They don't want poor folk in the same dealership as the affluent folk. More than likely they give free loaners/coffee at the high end dealerships too.
imidaz: It was an old quote from Dirty Harry...ease up and have some humor... :P
tlong: "I'll tell you what could help change public perception:
Is the UAW smart enough to realize that their behaviors have been contributing to the flight to imports? Do you think most Americans want to buy expensive goods from unions who whine about their generous retirement packages, about losing their job banks, about why they shouldn't make even more money for many jobs that are very menial and take little to no skills"
That is well said...I need you for my copywriter...you have described union assembly work to a "T" and, when you really look at it, what you are seeing on a macroeconomic basis is that the wall has been reached where we are finally realizing that they are not worth 25% of what they are paid to do, for the skill level it requires...
>It was an old quote from Dirty Harry...ease up and have some humor...
Calling everyone punks is not appropriate. Proper use would have attributed it as a quote in context.
>to buy expensive goods from unions who whine about their generous retirement packages, about losing their job banks
I haven't heard whining about the job banks being closed. That seemed like a ridiculous idea. Its etymology must be that the companies agreed to certain job numbers at certain plants in the past leaving no room for closing unneeded or nonperforming plants. So the option was to help them find new jobs by putting the unneeded into work locations with job hunting ability and tools there. Didn't work in re the job hunting.
Another problem is that large unions have not been necessarily "clean" in their operations. The labor unions have had bad records for honest use of their power to benefit the employees' long term good and that of the company. Whatever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
Well, if buying GM cars is such a HUGE gamble, I must be ultra-lucky! I ought to take my paycheck to Vegas, keep playing with the winnings, and amass a fortune bigger than that of Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Ted Turner combined! With the phenomenal luck I've been having with those horrible GM cars I've been buying, what the heck am I working for? I should just buy lottery tickets as every one would be a winner.
why they shouldn't make even more money for many jobs that are very menial and take little to no skills"
Having been part of the negotiations for our Teamster contracts I can give you some insight on that thinking. When you have a mixed bag of job classifications it becomes very difficult to tell one they are only worth half of the other job. Even though it is true. From the Unions standpoint they take the position that it costs as much to support the family of a skilled person as an unskilled person. So we had Janitors paid what telephone operators were making and warehouse people making nearly what the people with years of technical background were making. Paying a guy hauling boxes around in a warehouse making $30+ per hour never set well with myself or the other technicians. They were riding on our coat tails. The company was more concerned with the pay for 150 technicians than for 10 warehouse people.
I was going to transfer to the warehouse when the pay difference was only a buck. I liked the idea of running around in a truck all day delivering boxes that were never over 25 lbs. No stress just good pay. My boss pleaded with me not to transfer. Guess what on the next contract we got a bigger raise than the Warehouse guys. Though they were still only $2 behind us. Still ridiculous pay for a totally unskilled person. Driving a forklift takes about an hour to learn.
When I read a while back about the UAW forklift operator that made over $100k and was cut back and losing his home, it brought back old memories of over paid Union people.
Hondas have SS exhaust systems now and disc brakes usually cost around $1500-$2000 on most Honda models with rear drums standard as part of an option package that always includes something else like alloy wheels and a sunroof. And the difference between disc brakes and rear drums is more like 1-2 car lengths.
My 1998 Suburban had SS exhaust system also. I think GM has used that for a long time. My 05 GMC PU had 4 wheel Disc brakes. For some reason probably cost GM dropped the rear discs on their newer trucks.
Heck, I still have the original exhaust on my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and it's parked outside on the street. I guess to need to replace an exhaust on a modern car, it's got to be subjected to extremely corrosive conditions or you hit a rock or something and bend it.
Having been part of the negotiations for our Teamster contracts I can give you some insight on that thinking. When you have a mixed bag of job classifications it becomes very difficult to tell one they are only worth half of the other job.
Well that's my point. If Apple had highly paid individuals and they were fighting for more pay -- well they design beautiful hardware and software that is (IMHO) clearly superior and worth more. I'd go to bat for those people. But when I rent a G6 or a Grand Cherokee and the product is clearly inferior (again IMHO) to a Honda Accord, a Hyundai Sonata, etc., AND the workers are trying to shut down that company while demanding more benefits and fighting against a competitive environment where the best products win --- well guess where my sympathies DON'T lie.
I want my American brothers to be successful as much as the next person, but I busted my a** to get where I am and I think we all need to be a bit accountable and earn our way.
>rent a G6 or a Grand Cherokee and the product is clearly inferior (again IMHO) to a Honda Accord, a Hyundai Sonata, etc., AND the workers are trying to shut down that company while demanding more benefits and fighting against a competitive environment where the best products win --- well guess where my sympathies DON'T lie.
What you don't say there is important. You don't say that the assembly is not up to par (like some Camrys I've seen for this new design). Your anger needs to be directed at the management who take high pay an don't do an effective job; you anger needs to be toward the designers and engineers who design and spec the parts.
I don't know what makes me sadder, reading the blind support for the UAW by some posters or knowing that some folks don't know famous quotes from Dirty Harry. :shades:
If you read back through posts, you'll find I've agreed they have been overpaid. But the management has been grossly overpaid along with the engineering and the spec people in charge of suppliers. Many failures mentioned by people complaining or reporting their experiences are because of individual parts. that didn't work.
I did however last year or the year before go through the Moraine Assembly plant watching IUE workers (different union) assembling the vehicles. I don't know what they were being paid compared to UAW folks but they were working for what they were being paid. I didn't see anyone sweeping the floors and I don't know what they would have been paid.
I don't pay attention to pop movies which I believe Dirty Harry.
Six years for an exhaust system on a 1970s car in Buffalo is phenomenal. I think he's just reaching to find bad things to say about domestic cars like the oil kept wearing out every 3K-4K miles or the gasoline kept disappearing when he ran the car. Perhaps he really only did replace things that are normal wear items on his Hondas......like transmissions.
I was having a bad day today until lemko, just made me laugh so hard I have tears.
I only hope rocky gets out of Michigan soon, or he will go down with the state...it is great to have a positive attitude, but even the captain of the Titanic had to admit, at some time, that it did not look like the ship would make it to port...I hope his futile union rah-rah does not take him down with the rest of the state...
I appreciate your concern marsha7, but I'd rather go down with the Titanic, than leave the "midwest" where people are normal to at least me, and our justicial system punishes wrong doers equally in most cases regardless of status.
marsha7, I will always be a strong supporter of organized labor and that will never change. I'm a nationalist, who wants to protect our country from foreign influence. I believe in trade but not free for one side !!! Barack Obama, has a lot of issues I strongly disagree with him on but the alternative is disastrous IMHO !!! :surprise:
Hey, rock, ya gonna move on down here to Arizona and build solar-generated electric rigs with me? Let's start up our own company, man.
iluv, I'm not big on solar power pal, but thanks for the offer. Arizona, is waaaaaay to hot for me pal, and I like michigans 4 season climate, and we have lots of trees, lakes, rivers.
I see some trees, lots of mountains and lots of sun. :shades:
Perfect for garnering energy from the sun. True, there's a lot more to it, just thought I'd ask. Pardon me while I adjust my Seattle Seahawks cap a bit.
Please get out before the lifeboats run out...everything is against you up there...politics in Mich is anti-business and will get worse with Democrats running the show...the UAW is dead, but with a respirator it does not yet KNOW it is dead beause it appears to be breathing to the untrained eye...Big 3 is/are rapidly becoming the Medium 3 or Little 3...
Michigan, is not anti-business and if you were to examine our state a little closer you would see it is George W. Bush, and your free trading, pseudo-capitalist, republicans that hate american owned business. The main reason these foreign company's set up shops in south is they can buy-off ministers, to preach union hate on sundays. The people are easily manipulated, as long as they can own a beat-up truck, single wide, have plenty of smokes, coors light, they will work like slaves and risk life and limb for their company !!!
Get out now, unless you intend to run a hotel in Traverse City...beautiful state for scenery, but not for real business...
For the better part of 90 years we ruled the U.S. in manufactoring and if their is anyone to blame, you can look no further than the free marketeers that like to use slave child labor to build shoddy cheap goods !!!! :mad:
If you want, I could talk to the powers that be in GA, and we MAY let you live here...just NEVER mention the U-word (UNION) outside your bedroom, and you will be allowed to live...
The only thing good about Georgia, is Lake Sidney Lanier and Detriot Tiger, Tyrus Raymond Cobb, and he (COBB) was one of the founding fathers of the Major League Players Association. I also wouldn't want to live that close to a traitor like Zell Miller. :P :mad:
If I heard about a UAW strike where they were refusing to manufacture a POS vehicle (the newest Grand Cherokee comes to mind, as I have rented one), then I'd have a lot more respect for the UAW. The UAW needs to be fighting for MY right to have a very high quality car from one of the Big Three. Why should I be patriotic to a union that's not providing ME any value at all? And I don't see them doing anything like that. They just whine about more entitlements to build junk. If they want a good job that's going to have some security, then I suggest they diversify their complaints a bit and start worrying about what normal Americans are worrying about. And it's not the UAW retirement plans!
If you followed this last contract at all you might remember that language was included as that was a concern for the UAW !!!
When I read a while back about the UAW forklift operator that made over $100k and was cut back and losing his home, it brought back old memories of over paid Union people.
However it's okay to pay the CEO 64% more even though the company is bleeding red ink. Some might say you were over paid. Really how many skills were required to do your job. They could of fired all of you and brought in techs from India, for $15 an/hr. :confuse: :surprise: :P
They just charge you that. Its a high carbon stainless and not a 300 series. They just know that folks out there will pay for it. I just replace the rear drums on a Honda with disc and it includes a different proportioning valve, which engages the rear brake way sooner that prior. However, your right. Its like 20 feet at 60 miles per hour. I will stick my neck out here. By 2020 no drum brakes will be made and all exhausts will be Stainless.
Why would anyone pay that much more for an Acura as oppose to a Honda? Why would anyone buy non UAW?
>was, only to tell me he had the transmission rebuilt at 85,000.
Do you mean like my ex neighbors and their Honda TL that the little lady drove? They had it for 2 years, maybe 3, and it had 3 transmissions. I suspect they lease them and the business pays for them. Honda has to keep a third shift in their transmission plants for replacements.
Michigan, is not anti-business and if you were to examine our state a little closer you would see it is George W. Bush, and your free trading, pseudo-capitalist, republicans that hate american owned business. The main reason these foreign company's set up shops in south is they can buy-off ministers, to preach union hate on sundays. The people are easily manipulated, as long as they can own a beat-up truck, single wide, have plenty of smokes, coors light, they will work like slaves and risk life and limb for their company !!!
For the better part of 90 years we ruled the U.S. in manufactoring and if their is anyone to blame, you can look no further than the free marketeers that like to use slave child labor to build shoddy cheap goods !!!! The only thing good about Georgia, is Lake Sidney Lanier and Detriot Tiger, Tyrus Raymond Cobb, and he (COBB) was one of the founding fathers of the Major League Players Association. I also wouldn't want to live that close to a traitor like Zell Miller.
Rocky my friend, piece of advice. It doesn't help your argument when you attack others with juvenile insults and stereotypical attacks. If you want to show your side and be the UAW support balance, go right ahead. We need both sides of the argument. But what we don't need is you insulting others. Because honestly, when you do that you come off as more ignorant than anyone you are attempting to attack. When we claim that Michigan is bad for business, we're not bad mouthing the midwest at all. We're bad-mouthing what we consider to be a history if bad business decisions and inadequate local government that continually impedes new growth.
And yes, I agree with you. Michigan is great for business...in 1924.
See that, that was how you throw out a funny without insulting someone. And don't worry, no apologies necessary. We GA folks have strong skin. We don't need to get into the South vs. the Midwest for business growth, too many facts will just happen to show how much stronger financially the South is and I don't want facts to muddy your positions. Now, let's talk the UAW friend.
Question for the thread. When (not if, but when) one of the Medium 3 declares bankruptcy can they throw out completely current UAW contracts? Can they legally use bankruptcy to force all new contracts? And if so, would that be for both Retirees and Actives?
I had an Acura TL transmission replaced at 85,000 (free); 130,000 now - BFD. I'll trade it for another Honda or Acura. My father's had two transmissions in his Bravada and it has less than 75,000 (he paid for them, along with a bunch of other crap that went wrong). He's 74 and losing the use of his legs, so maybe the current one will last him now.
T: It is my understanding that if they file Chapter 11 (reorganization) not Chapter 7 (total liquidation), one of the main things to eliminate is DEBT...and that, IMO, should allow them to void any contracts, which means that any UAW contract would be gone, and any retiree benefits may evaporate...like it or not, if the $$$ is not there to pay for it, then I believe it becomes a dischargeable debt...you cannot simply "force" the company to pay for something that the money is not there to pay...and, in that case, I also believe that CEO/Management pay should be slashed to the bone
rocky: believe it or not, we DO have four seasons down here, and our winetrs DO have temps down to zero, and wind chills down to 10-20 below zero...granted, those winter temps rarely last more than a week or two, but leaves do change, spring and fall are quite nice, and, yes, summers are hot...as opposed to Michigan which has two seasons, July and Winter...:):):):):)........................oh, and Zell Miller gets the Patriot award down here...if he ran for Pres as a Democrat, he would win, because he is a Democrat like Kennedy and Truman, who fought Communism-Socialism instead of embracing it...
Good luck, rocky...I hope your positions do not prevent you from achieving satisfactory and fulfilling employment...but they sound like they will...and, even if Hussein Obama becomes Pres, it will not bring back one job to Big 3 in Michigan...remember, now that imports have plants over here, "regulating" them will be difficult, as they may soon employ more American workers than the Big 3, which is simply the evolutionary process of creative destruction at work...which, BTW, is capitalism at work, too...if the gov't "saves" GM or Ford, what are they going to do, pass a law that forces me to buy a Solstice???
GM has brought drums back on their Silverados after discontinuing them for a while and you can't even get them now as options except by buying the biggest engine and at a mid-level trim or higher. I can only hope they're gone by 2020.
Honda doesn't even make that big a deal about their SS exhausts and whatever the carbon content, it doesn't rust out. GM uses aluminized steel on many of their vehicles, and that has to be worse than even a low-grade stainless.
I can't answer the Honda vs. Acura, except to say that Acuras get more creature comforts and luxury features that they intentionally withhold from Hondas. UAW or not? I perceive the UAW to cover for sloppy work habits, entitlement mentalities and malcontents with bad attitudes, and I have relatives who were and are members, albeit among the very few who are Republicans. Both the Big 3 and the UAW are going to have to prove to me how they've changed because I know what they were, having been a victim (or related to one) of the junk they put out. Meanwhile, I'll keep buying Japanese and non-union until I can afford to chance it.
(Is that named for the handgun???)...You are the type of person I write about, and I believe you number in the millions..."I'll keep buying Japanese and non-union until I can afford to chance it."...you are the reason for the growth of the imports at the expense of Big 3, and you will not return to Big 3 until they really give you a reason to do so...you simply make my point, and for those who demand from me exact numbers, of course I do not have any...but I believe that your comment sums up the attitude of many that some will not admit that they exist...
It is also sad that some models have dropped rear disc to bring back drums...drums are inferior for stopping power, and, back when they were an option, the extra cost, IIRC, was $50-100, simply because you only had to pay the difference, as the car had to have brakes on all 4 wheels, so the extra cost of discs, calipers and master cylinder was minimal...unlike, say, air conditioning, which was, at one time, an option, then you had to pay for the entire unit, because otherwise you just simply had air vents and no cooling at all...except 4-60 air...
Yes. It's my favorite out of those I own, which include HK P7s, Glocks, Colt 1911s, S&W, Ruger and Colt (Python) revolvers, Berettas, etc. Interestingly, my Colts were built by the UAW, and they are BY FAR the most troublesome guns I own and among the most expensive. I bypassed Colt when it came time to buy myself an AR rifle because of this and they are hurting now, just like the Big 3. CZs are cheap, accurate and, by contrast, dependable.
One thing about replacing drums with discs, as the poster from Dallas mentioned he does, is that ABS control units are often programed for a specific set of braking characteristics that can create premature activation issues when you retrofit, making your stops longer, not shorter. Even though it costs the factory, maybe, a couple hundred bucks to use discs over rear drums, it will cost the consumer far more because of the pitfalls of technology.
trichardson, You crack me up. Gentle humor indeed with the " medium three. You wrote: " For the better part of 90 years we ruled the U.S. in manufactoring and if their is anyone to blame, you can look no further than the free marketeers that like to use slave child labor to build shoddy cheap goods !!!! " If only it were true ,no longer is what is good for GM good for the nation. Gm is shaky, even after trying every trick they could, they were not prepared for the oil bubble. Ford has suffered more in the last 10 years of quagmire, now on there 3rd ceo they are desparately trying to convince the nation that quality is still job one. Weakest of the three Chrysler, now owned by private equity who no doubt regrets their purchase, will no longer do a lease since they were burned so badly on residuals on their suv's.They won't publish numbers like Ford. They don't have to, they're private. No doubt Jeep, perhaps Dodge ? will be on the chopping block soon. Private equity doesn't mess around. So sadly the UAW is the union of the has beens. Granted the ceo's played a bit too much golf in Grosse Pointe but they also didn't " get it " or see where the future was going. Can they survive? Perhaps, two out of the three. Unfortunately the paradigm has shifted. Toyota is now the number one car company in the country. When I was growing up, Japanese meant shoddy, cheap, inferior. What does it mean today? Here's hoping we can still maintain a presence in automobiles, but to tell you the truth, I'm rather worried.
Comments
But for those who dispute what I say, they almost sound as tho they cannot believe that anybody was burned in the past, and those prevously numbered posts are EXACTLY the kind of people I am talking about, except they now probably number in the millions...do I have exact numbers???...no...but the Big 3 market share has dropped over the last 2-3 decades because of posts like those above...and, IMO, the 70s and 80s are NOT ancient history, as people's Big 3 experiences from then WILL affect their purchases today, whether their own, or the purchases of their kids...the business exec in Dallas who said that of 40 cars, only two are domestic, that is what I see as the wave of the future...
And, for those who are Big 3 loyalists, regardless of what you say, there ARE many folks who have been badly burned and will never return to a domestic car...obviously, there are enough Big 3 buyers that Big 3 are still in business, and big businesses there are...
But the winds have been changing, and it ain't looking good for the Big 3...while these posts are not a scientific sample, the number of people who have abandoned Big 3 cars, if I was a Big 3 exec, would scare me, esp as I look to the future for the survival of my company...
It does seem that the folks who have been burned by Big 3 can name numerous vehicles they had over years that were junk, the import buyers have a few models/problems that were lemons, but the imports simply do not have the rep for so much junk like the Big 3 do...
You can dispute me all you want...I am only summarizing the info that is apparent to anyone...better to dispute the other posters who experiences are the specific examples of what I am summarizing...tell THEM that their experiences with BIg 3 junk were unique, and I would bet that they have friends and family with identical experiences to theirs...that is who you need to argue with, not me...
As far as Michigan giving tax breaks to movie companies, that is what you get when Democrats are in control...nobody understands capitalism, they just think jobs come from heaven...
I only hope rocky gets out of Michigan soon, or he will go down with the state...it is great to have a positive attitude, but even the captain of the Titanic had to admit, at some time, that it did not look like the ship would make it to port...I hope his futile union rah-rah does not take him down with the rest of the state...
"Actually, we're gonna go faster. I've fired up the last 6 boilers!" exclaims Captain Smith as some decide whether to have another strong drink or just wait around for the inevitable.
Insert the Big 3 here for the Titanic.
High ghastly prices?!!
"I've just ordered the Hummer factories to produce at thrice the rate!" Broccoli stuck in their teeth and all. Oh, well.
Hey, rock, ya gonna move on down here to Arizona and build solar-generated electric rigs with me? Let's start up our own company, man. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Get out now, unless you intend to run a hotel in Traverse City...beautiful state for scenery, but not for real business...
If you want, I could talk to the powers that be in GA, and we MAY let you live here...just NEVER mention the U-word (UNION) outside your bedroom, and you will be allowed to live...
However I have kept tabs on what they offered and if I saw something that made me tingle enough, I would whip out my checkbook. Some of the Mustangs in a very standard style have almost..., but I decided two were enough. But a bright red convertible.... And I don't spend my time going to the Ford forums telling them about the crappy motors and engineering through the years... or how the rear suspension wasn't tightened to specs... or how the motor wore early when I didn't change the oil enough... or the tires on the front wearing out on the edges at 80,000 mi because of the high camber on turns they built into the steering geometry... or the etc... :shades:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Certainly a lot of GM's problems are not due to the UAW; management has been dismal as well. I'll tell you what could help change public perception:
Is the UAW smart enough to realize that their behaviors have been contributing to the flight to imports? Do you think most Americans want to buy expensive goods from unions who whine about their generous retirement packages, about losing their job banks, about why they shouldn't make even more money for many jobs that are very menial and take little to no skills? I don't think so, or they wouldn't be striking American Axle. The UAW is cutting their own throats and they're not bright enough to realize that.
If the UAW had some sense, they would know that the poor quality of cars and poor design, poor interior materials, etc., are driving away business --- which will soon enough mean their jobs. Why aren't they raising a huge fuss when a new vehicle is poorly designed?...when what they are building is ugly, unrefined, has a shoddy interior?
If I heard about a UAW strike where they were refusing to manufacture a POS vehicle (the newest Grand Cherokee comes to mind, as I have rented one), then I'd have a lot more respect for the UAW. The UAW needs to be fighting for MY right to have a very high quality car from one of the Big Three. Why should I be patriotic to a union that's not providing ME any value at all? And I don't see them doing anything like that. They just whine about more entitlements to build junk. If they want a good job that's going to have some security, then I suggest they diversify their complaints a bit and start worrying about what normal Americans are worrying about. And it's not the UAW retirement plans!
You make a valid argument. When GMC started using paper thin sheet metal in their PU trucks why didn't the UAW strike? They only strike to benefit themselves. It had to be obvious to the guy shutting the door on my 2005 GMC PU that it did not fit well. If it was a design fault, which I believe it was. Why didn't they tell the shop steward I am not going to put my name on this POC? My four GM trucks and Suburban built in Mexico and Canada were better vehicles. I would not blame that on the UAW. I do think they would garner more sympathy from mainstream America if their strikes were not so blatantly aimed at kicking a crippled car maker.
I've also had people tell me how great their Big 3 car is and how it's better than any import, only to find they've replaced a transmission or had the engine rebuilt before they got to 100,000 miles, sometimes well before. The barber I had when I lived in St. Louis was one of these. He loved his Chevy Astro and told me how great it was, only to tell me he had the transmission rebuilt at 85,000. :confuse:
Although I do blame much of the Big 3 woes on the unions, one cannot blame it all on them. I do not have the "exact" figures, but I believe GM lost somewhere in the 15-20 billion dollar range last year; their stock fell 19 percent in value; and they are getting ready to close four factories. And the kicker is ---- the CEO got a 64 percent pay raise!!! How much would he have received if they turned a profit?? He is paid to "lead" the company.... maybe he is leading it in the wrong direction. One can't expect the CEOs to be visionaries? Well, what does one get from them for their salaries? Perhaps GM needs a little help here. It probably isn't a state secret and I do not expect any money from the CEO, but here's a hint that may go a long way for Mr. Mullaley (and the other two): What do people want in a car?..... hummmm... Safe, reliable, and fuel efficient should get you somewhere. It seems to work for the imports....
They were replacing them, free, with "Improved" ones even though the factory warranty was no longer in effect. They also extended the transmission warranty to 100K miles on all models that may have been affected.
On the other hand, my mother at age 75 bought a new Explorer. She is religious about maintenance. At approximately 60K the tranny had to be replaced. At 90K+ it had to be replaced again. She got to pay $3000 the first time and $3500 the second time. Several folks we know had similar problems with Ford trannys at around 60K. I believe that without exception, every one of those folks got rid of those vehicles. As one guy said , "The transmission was just icing on the cake of a long bad experience".
My son's late 90s Suburban tranny crapped out at somewhere around 55K. He had an extended warranty that picked up "Most" of the $3500 repair bill but didn't supply a rental car. He got rid of it shortly there afterwards. He said, "The thing was just a bag of snakes". To be fair, I have a friend with a Jeep Cherokee old style with the inline 6. My son, that got rid of the Suburban, has a 99 "Loaded" V8 Grand Cherokee he bought used. Both now have well over 200K on original drive trains.
Our last GM "Car" was an '87 Olds Cutlass Calais. It was plagued with sensor problems and occasionally killing the engine after a left hand turn. We got rid of it at 75K when we were looking at Major engine work, a transmission replacement, and the paint was flaking off the hood, top, and trunk lid. Traded it for a new '95 Maxima and only saw the dealer when normal service was due. Traded that at 75K for a new '03 CR-V and only had 1 problem. The AC compressor self destructed after warranty, and Honda fixed it free, and supplied a loaner. We have an extended warranty, but the dealer said Honda fixed it without involving the EW.
I had 2 Dodge Rams since the '87 Olds. Still trying to "Buy American". The 96 squeaked and rattled and always felt like a tire was out of balance. Dealer got tired of listening to me whine and offered a deal I couldn't refuse for a "New and Improved" '98 model. The '98 steering column had to be replaced and the new steering column was defective, so I got to spend a second day there. "No Loaner".
It also developed a poor throttle response. Service writer said it was likely due to air leaks around the intake manifold. It was a manufacturing flaw they were aware of and could probably get fixed under warranty. Got rid of that puppy for a '03 Honda Pilot.
The Pilot has had a few recalls, but they were done during normal service visits.
Point is, that any make of car can develop a problem. How the manufacturers and dealer handle it is what counts to me. The "Imports" appear to actually care about customer satisfaction. As with the Honda trany problems. They identified it, fixed it, and helped the customer. Most of the B3 vehicles have been having automatic tranny problems for years. With the attitude of, "Well, everything wears out"!
A poster above said something like, " The imports have problems, but they are fixed while the vehicle is in for service and the customer doesn't know there was a problem". Isn't that refreshing!
Kip
I'm a working adult taking night classes at Ursinus College in PA. Current project is a term paper on Microeconomics. I have an idea where I think I can take the paper but need allot of statistics from the last 20 years or so. I think we all agree detroit has its hands full. looking for linkage to stats on how many works +/- the UAW has since the heyday of Detroit. How many jobs were lost? Bottom lines of automakers? Role of immigration. Role of outsourcing. Foreign investment from Ford, Gm and such in other countries.
Any unbiased fact only information would be appreciated.
My goal is to fast forward 10 years and see where Detroit is as teh auto hub of teh US.
Thanks.
I'm still trying to figure out the Accord transmissions being replaced free (good), and everyone being very happy that Honda extends the warranty to 100,000 mi. Aren't those supposed to be the cars that last 400,000 with only oil changes?
>they are fixed while the vehicle is in for service and the customer doesn't know there was a problem
The joke is that the cars in that era are the ones upon which people based their belief that the foreign cars were problem-free. In reality they were having things fixed (good) without the owner knowing it (bad) during the mandatory service visits, prefereably with the owner leaving the car for service. A coworker found his car with something on the motor being replaced during an early visit in his Camry wagon's life. Later the rear brakes were being replaced early (e.g., 20,000 or sooner) on a service visit. He has no misconceptions that his Camry was perfect from the factory. However he liked the repairs done by the company (GM could take notice of where to spend money for customer PR--fix things); that works better than waiting for class action suits to meander through the system as a stall to repairing (Toyota had the same thing with sludge problems.).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Absolutely! With GM, you need to be a better mechanic than the ones employed at the dealers. Our last visit, covered by an extended warranty, was for a battery drain condition cloaked by the statement on the service ticket "seat switch stuck on". Give me a break.
In the future, buying a GM, Ford or Chrysler is very risky because of their precarious situation. You will need a PhD in Automotive Sciences to go with your purchase because the odds are dealers will close and bankruptcies will form, negating all support services.
Russian Roulette going forward....
Do ya feel luck, Punk?...Well do ya??
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/toyota_sludge.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html
Can you run the risk with this manufacturer? They denied, denied, and denied. Fact is that those Toyota's back in the late seventies were more like Porsche's. Porsche business is 70% consultation. The 79 Celica with a tagra band, enormous pistons, massive crank, and a bit roomier in the passenger compartment, reeks of German engineering. These were the 300,000 mile cars/cheap to keep cars. I have doubt that these new Toyota's will stand the test of time. Germans aren't into front wheel drive as a general rule. So buyer beware and do your homework.
It should be noted that Honda and Acura are the same company. Nissan and Infinity are the same also and Toyota and Lexus are the same. They don't want poor folk in the same dealership as the affluent folk. More than likely they give free loaners/coffee at the high end dealerships too.
Who is it you are calling "Punk"?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Read: Do you feel lucky enough to take a HUGE gamble on buying a FORD, Chrysler or GM? Well do YA??
Regards,
OW
tlong: "I'll tell you what could help change public perception:
Is the UAW smart enough to realize that their behaviors have been contributing to the flight to imports? Do you think most Americans want to buy expensive goods from unions who whine about their generous retirement packages, about losing their job banks, about why they shouldn't make even more money for many jobs that are very menial and take little to no skills"
That is well said...I need you for my copywriter...you have described union assembly work to a "T" and, when you really look at it, what you are seeing on a macroeconomic basis is that the wall has been reached where we are finally realizing that they are not worth 25% of what they are paid to do, for the skill level it requires...
Calling everyone punks is not appropriate.
>to buy expensive goods from unions who whine about their generous retirement packages, about losing their job banks
I haven't heard whining about the job banks being closed. That seemed like a ridiculous idea. Its etymology must be that the companies agreed to certain job numbers at certain plants in the past leaving no room for closing unneeded or nonperforming plants. So the option was to help them find new jobs by putting the unneeded into work locations with job hunting ability and tools there. Didn't work in re the job hunting.
Another problem is that large unions have not been necessarily "clean" in their operations. The labor unions have had bad records for honest use of their power to benefit the employees' long term good and that of the company. Whatever happened to Jimmy Hoffa?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Having been part of the negotiations for our Teamster contracts I can give you some insight on that thinking. When you have a mixed bag of job classifications it becomes very difficult to tell one they are only worth half of the other job. Even though it is true. From the Unions standpoint they take the position that it costs as much to support the family of a skilled person as an unskilled person. So we had Janitors paid what telephone operators were making and warehouse people making nearly what the people with years of technical background were making. Paying a guy hauling boxes around in a warehouse making $30+ per hour never set well with myself or the other technicians. They were riding on our coat tails. The company was more concerned with the pay for 150 technicians than for 10 warehouse people.
I was going to transfer to the warehouse when the pay difference was only a buck. I liked the idea of running around in a truck all day delivering boxes that were never over 25 lbs. No stress just good pay. My boss pleaded with me not to transfer. Guess what on the next contract we got a bigger raise than the Warehouse guys. Though they were still only $2 behind us. Still ridiculous pay for a totally unskilled person. Driving a forklift takes about an hour to learn.
When I read a while back about the UAW forklift operator that made over $100k and was cut back and losing his home, it brought back old memories of over paid Union people.
Well that's my point. If Apple had highly paid individuals and they were fighting for more pay -- well they design beautiful hardware and software that is (IMHO) clearly superior and worth more. I'd go to bat for those people. But when I rent a G6 or a Grand Cherokee and the product is clearly inferior (again IMHO) to a Honda Accord, a Hyundai Sonata, etc., AND the workers are trying to shut down that company while demanding more benefits and fighting against a competitive environment where the best products win --- well guess where my sympathies DON'T lie.
I want my American brothers to be successful as much as the next person, but I busted my a** to get where I am and I think we all need to be a bit accountable and earn our way.
What you don't say there is important. You don't say that the assembly is not up to par (like some Camrys I've seen for this new design). Your anger needs to be directed at the management who take high pay an don't do an effective job; you anger needs to be toward the designers and engineers who design and spec the parts.
I think the UAW is an easy target.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I kid, I kid....
If you read back through posts, you'll find I've agreed they have been overpaid. But the management has been grossly overpaid along with the engineering and the spec people in charge of suppliers. Many failures mentioned by people complaining or reporting their experiences are because of individual parts. that didn't work.
I did however last year or the year before go through the Moraine Assembly plant watching IUE workers (different union) assembling the vehicles. I don't know what they were being paid compared to UAW folks but they were working for what they were being paid. I didn't see anyone sweeping the floors and I don't know what they would have been paid.
I don't pay attention to pop movies which I believe Dirty Harry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was having a bad day today until lemko, just made me laugh so hard I have tears.
-Rocky
I appreciate your concern marsha7, but I'd rather go down with the Titanic, than leave the "midwest" where people are normal to at least me, and our justicial system punishes wrong doers equally in most cases regardless of status.
marsha7, I will always be a strong supporter of organized labor and that will never change. I'm a nationalist, who wants to protect our country from foreign influence. I believe in trade but not free for one side !!! Barack Obama, has a lot of issues I strongly disagree with him on but the alternative is disastrous IMHO !!! :surprise:
"Da Rockster"
iluv, I'm not big on solar power pal, but thanks for the offer. Arizona, is waaaaaay to hot for me pal, and I like michigans 4 season climate, and we have lots of trees, lakes, rivers.
-Rocky
Perfect for garnering energy from the sun. True, there's a lot more to it, just thought I'd ask. Pardon me while I adjust my Seattle Seahawks cap a bit.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Michigan, is not anti-business and if you were to examine our state a little closer you would see it is George W. Bush, and your free trading, pseudo-capitalist, republicans that hate american owned business. The main reason these foreign company's set up shops in south is they can buy-off ministers, to preach union hate on sundays. The people are easily manipulated, as long as they can own a beat-up truck, single wide, have plenty of smokes, coors light, they will work like slaves and risk life and limb for their company !!!
Get out now, unless you intend to run a hotel in Traverse City...beautiful state for scenery, but not for real business...
For the better part of 90 years we ruled the U.S. in manufactoring and if their is anyone to blame, you can look no further than the free marketeers that like to use slave child labor to build shoddy cheap goods !!!! :mad:
If you want, I could talk to the powers that be in GA, and we MAY let you live here...just NEVER mention the U-word (UNION) outside your bedroom, and you will be allowed to live...
The only thing good about Georgia, is Lake Sidney Lanier and Detriot Tiger, Tyrus Raymond Cobb, and he (COBB) was one of the founding fathers of the Major League Players Association. I also wouldn't want to live that close to a traitor like Zell Miller. :P :mad:
-Rocky
If you followed this last contract at all you might remember that language was included as that was a concern for the UAW !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
However it's okay to pay the CEO 64% more even though the company is bleeding red ink. Some might say you were over paid. Really how many skills were required to do your job. They could of fired all of you and brought in techs from India, for $15 an/hr. :confuse: :surprise: :P
-Rocky
Why would anyone pay that much more for an Acura as oppose to a Honda? Why would anyone buy non UAW?
-Rocky
Do you mean like my ex neighbors and their Honda TL that the little lady drove? They had it for 2 years, maybe 3, and it had 3 transmissions. I suspect they lease them and the business pays for them. Honda has to keep a third shift in their transmission plants for replacements.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
alive and well(dying a slow painful death) in AmericaFor the better part of 90 years we ruled the U.S. in manufactoring and if their is anyone to blame, you can look no further than the free marketeers that like to use slave child labor to build shoddy cheap goods !!!!
The only thing good about Georgia, is Lake Sidney Lanier and Detriot Tiger, Tyrus Raymond Cobb, and he (COBB) was one of the founding fathers of the Major League Players Association. I also wouldn't want to live that close to a traitor like Zell Miller.
Rocky my friend, piece of advice. It doesn't help your argument when you attack others with juvenile insults and stereotypical attacks. If you want to show your side and be the UAW support balance, go right ahead. We need both sides of the argument. But what we don't need is you insulting others. Because honestly, when you do that you come off as more ignorant than anyone you are attempting to attack. When we claim that Michigan is bad for business, we're not bad mouthing the midwest at all. We're bad-mouthing what we consider to be a history if bad business decisions and inadequate local government that continually impedes new growth.
And yes, I agree with you. Michigan is great for business...in 1924.
See that, that was how you throw out a funny without insulting someone. And don't worry, no apologies necessary. We GA folks have strong skin. We don't need to get into the South vs. the Midwest for business growth, too many facts will just happen to show how much stronger financially the South is and I don't want facts to muddy your positions. Now, let's talk the UAW friend.
Question for the thread. When (not if, but when) one of the Medium 3 declares bankruptcy can they throw out completely current UAW contracts? Can they legally use bankruptcy to force all new contracts? And if so, would that be for both Retirees and Actives?
rocky: believe it or not, we DO have four seasons down here, and our winetrs DO have temps down to zero, and wind chills down to 10-20 below zero...granted, those winter temps rarely last more than a week or two, but leaves do change, spring and fall are quite nice, and, yes, summers are hot...as opposed to Michigan which has two seasons, July and Winter...:):):):):)........................oh, and Zell Miller gets the Patriot award down here...if he ran for Pres as a Democrat, he would win, because he is a Democrat like Kennedy and Truman, who fought Communism-Socialism instead of embracing it...
Good luck, rocky...I hope your positions do not prevent you from achieving satisfactory and fulfilling employment...but they sound like they will...and, even if Hussein Obama becomes Pres, it will not bring back one job to Big 3 in Michigan...remember, now that imports have plants over here, "regulating" them will be difficult, as they may soon employ more American workers than the Big 3, which is simply the evolutionary process of creative destruction at work...which, BTW, is capitalism at work, too...if the gov't "saves" GM or Ford, what are they going to do, pass a law that forces me to buy a Solstice???
Honda doesn't even make that big a deal about their SS exhausts and whatever the carbon content, it doesn't rust out. GM uses aluminized steel on many of their vehicles, and that has to be worse than even a low-grade stainless.
I can't answer the Honda vs. Acura, except to say that Acuras get more creature comforts and luxury features that they intentionally withhold from Hondas. UAW or not? I perceive the UAW to cover for sloppy work habits, entitlement mentalities and malcontents with bad attitudes, and I have relatives who were and are members, albeit among the very few who are Republicans. Both the Big 3 and the UAW are going to have to prove to me how they've changed because I know what they were, having been a victim (or related to one) of the junk they put out. Meanwhile, I'll keep buying Japanese and non-union until I can afford to chance it.
It is also sad that some models have dropped rear disc to bring back drums...drums are inferior for stopping power, and, back when they were an option, the extra cost, IIRC, was $50-100, simply because you only had to pay the difference, as the car had to have brakes on all 4 wheels, so the extra cost of discs, calipers and master cylinder was minimal...unlike, say, air conditioning, which was, at one time, an option, then you had to pay for the entire unit, because otherwise you just simply had air vents and no cooling at all...except 4-60 air...
One thing about replacing drums with discs, as the poster from Dallas mentioned he does, is that ABS control units are often programed for a specific set of braking characteristics that can create premature activation issues when you retrofit, making your stops longer, not shorter. Even though it costs the factory, maybe, a couple hundred bucks to use discs over rear drums, it will cost the consumer far more because of the pitfalls of technology.
" For the better part of 90 years we ruled the U.S. in manufactoring and if their is anyone to blame, you can look no further than the free marketeers that like to use slave child labor to build shoddy cheap goods !!!! "
If only it were true ,no longer is what is good for GM good for the nation. Gm is shaky, even after trying every trick they could, they were not prepared for the oil bubble. Ford has suffered more in the last 10 years of quagmire, now on there 3rd ceo they are desparately trying to convince the nation that quality is still job one. Weakest of the three Chrysler, now owned by private equity who no doubt regrets their purchase, will no longer do a lease since they were burned so badly on residuals on their suv's.They won't publish numbers like Ford. They don't have to, they're private. No doubt Jeep, perhaps Dodge ? will be on the chopping block soon. Private equity doesn't mess around. So sadly the UAW is the union of the has beens. Granted the ceo's played a bit too much golf in Grosse Pointe but they also didn't " get it " or see where the future was going. Can they survive? Perhaps, two out of the three. Unfortunately the paradigm has shifted. Toyota is now the number one car company in the country. When I was growing up, Japanese meant shoddy, cheap, inferior. What does it mean today? Here's hoping we can still maintain a presence in automobiles, but to tell you the truth, I'm rather worried.