dallasdude1 wrote: " My friend is there a difference in free trade and fair trade? Knowing macro economics is just silly for knowledge sake. We must apply common sense to the principals. Perhaps, IS and LM curves are only good in theory. "
You might throw in Micro and Econometrics but darn dude, just when I thought there was a chance I might agree with you . Then you expand I and I find myself on the other side. First of all I agree with you on the financial sector. They have been guilty as sin of abusing not only the fed but the federal government. A bigger bunch of dumbasses who are not smarter than a trilobyte much less a 5th grader have there never been. It would be so nice to stick it to them if their inner child wasn't so damn mean and in retribution they wouldn't try to implode the US economy. Worry not about estate tax it is going to get "very intereresting " in 2010.
"Then after the DOT COM bust brought out the well to do conservatives who sued in California (Radio Shack and others) for overtime, and won big time in class action multi million dollar verdicts. Then we were told that there was a family value in comp time which was to be enacted. " No comment since I don't understand.
" These large concerns have taken control of govt as well as the media. They have done well in labeling and lobbying. If you think they aren't conspiring with communist China, think again. China has and will continue to support a large steel industry. The one metric that China is concerned with is JOBS. The high level communist and their families fear social unrest. This is not part of globalization and capitalism. Is anyone crying foul? No, the more efficient steel plants will go out of business and the workers there will lose employment. Multi nationals are being blackmailed by these communist. Copyrights and intellectual rights aren't a reality in China and no one brings this up. As the CEO of Calloway put it "its just the price of doing business in China".
The Chinese are inscrutable, or inscrewable, depending on your preference. Efficient steel plants going out of business? Hmm, far from it. Multi nationals blackmailed by China ? They are standing in line. Piracy in China, again I agree. There might have been one legal copy of Windows sold in China but I might be mistaken that there was one. The rest gets confusing except I do agree that the chinese will make any substitutions for 1/10 of a cent more profit. Methylglycol in toothpaste ? What's your problem ? It's kinda close to glyercine . Lead in toys, yes, embalming fluid in pyjamas? Sure .Personally I'm in favor of CEO abuse. Many skipped work ethic 101.
Forgive me I'm poor at explaining. Sorry the overtime folks were making a little/lot on the side (in the stock market) as the DOT COM boom went on. Then all of the sudden the BURST. Now they were looking to take their employer to court. Prior these were conservative employees who were happy with their lot in life. Basically yokels given a title "manager". Money issues brings out the true persona. It should also be noted that after the bust the FED started lowering interest rates to fuel the economy as they are in this housing bust. Fiscal policy too is out the save the home owners or is it the mortgage industry concerns???
Govt subsidies to Airbus in Europe, steel mills here in America have been seen as protectionist policy. The case has been made by many including Boeing and prior by all our closed steel mills. Everyone should see East Chicago to see real economic chaos. Hence, the defense dept looks at the Boeing/Airbus bids differently. These are nothing but a inverse tariff which robs the consumer and more efficient producer.
For years Japan has protect its beef industry. Just order you a steak there and you see the burden$$$. Then Argentina and or America is denied entry into that market. However, when you see these Asians on vacation they seem to frequent the steak houses for all three meals. Both consumer and producer are robbed.
dallasdude1, I think you wear your heart on your sleeve so I will try to find middle ground.Yeah California in large bought in heart and soul to internet mania.Or should I phrase it dot com emerging tech ? They were ground zero. And Allen ( bless his heart ,dumbest fed chief ever) Greenspan was so afraid that his name would go in the history books with the big D not R after his name that he brought rates to virtually zero. When the discount rate is .75% and you're a quarter point away from the Japanese you're close to zero. Awash with free money and with the economy still in recession and no near term hope for the stock market where was money to go ? Starts with R and ends with E. The steel industry seems to be flourishing so I don't understand your comments unless it refers to the 80's/90's ? Boeing tried to game the defense dept and got caught. None the less they may still end up winning as congress wants the home team to win. Johnnyell, no comment but if you are not an internet scammer please state the reason for your post and why. Apologies but your post reminds me of emails I get for Viaagrah. The mixing of small and lower case as well as poor grammar is usually a clue.Btw. Robin Williams aka Mork from Ork used nano nano first. Stock market decades usually end on a speculative bubble with something that is cool in analysis but has no associative economics. Alternative energy-'70's, biotechnology - '80's, dot com/emerging tech- 90's, nanotech- 00's ? But you'll have to wait in line. We have to get through this credit debacle, oil bubble first.
There was a time when America was the envy of the world wherein its citizens would not even think of buying a foreign made product. On the contrary, we took pride in our work and made products that the entire world wanted. As a result, WE grew extraordinarily wealthy.
Having a world labor force is a joke and it benefits the corporations far more than it does the American people. The fact that you might have to pay a little more for products that are produced in America is a small price to pay to keep jobs here and to stimulate the economy by having employed people spent money here.
The fact that Americans have been conditioned to accept the junk made by other countries' slave labor is a joke. The crap made abroad falls apart, it's toxic as all get out, and its made in plants without the same production standards as in America.
The cost of foreign labor has been the biggest con job that the corporations have thrown on the public here in America. Do you think China would be stupid enough to have America product all their products or any country for that matter. If you look at the overall cost to the America society by the switch-over to foreign production of our products, there is no question that its has been a fleecing in favor of the corporations.
Just who has been controlling this country for the last 15 years anyway? I admit that the unions went a little too far with their demands in the past, but that could have been settled and worked out, but instead Big Business sold America out to the lowest bidder labor force around the world. I bet the Chinese worker doesn't get a health insurance policy or profit sharing.
What is the justification for America giving up its industrial base and its jobs to the world? What can they say, that America gets to buy cheaper products at Wal~ Mart, but X million will be out of work, will starve, and not spend money in the economy so we can get some cheap junk?
In all my years, it was rare that anybody was killed by toxic food or anything produced in the USA. Free trade is find if you add the necessary tariff or tax to even out the playing field. But this would only be true if there were strong protections on the quality of stuff coming in.
The American people cannot continue to sell bubbles to each other to make a living .....do you get it? So go ahead and keep thinking that your getting a great benefit by being able to buy cheap junk from Wal~Mart, but don't discount the American peoples' ability to make cheap junk also. So much of that junk from China is also marked up way more than it should be.
Nobody ever said that the USA owed a duty to the world to give it all its production so they could raise themselves up. This is PR spin by the people that benefit by the USA cutting off their nose to spite their face. In every way ,shape and form, you will discover that Corporate America, including Wall Street, with its evil greedy ways has been controlling the money markets, the cheap goods markets and you name it, especially in the last 12 to 15 years . The PR campaign for a global work force will accuse you of being too protectionist and that it's good for the world to be uplifted. Maybe China should start producing for their own people and maybe China should give its people a liveable wage?
I remember when my parents used to say, "Eat your food because people are starving in China." I use to say back to my parents, "Then they can move to America if they want to." I was naive, but you get my point.
Good post lemko. We disagree a lot of some of the macro items but in general we're on the same page around wanting America to remain at the forefront of well...everything.
One comment you made - "The fact that Americans have been conditioned to accept the junk made by other countries' slave labor is a joke. The crap made abroad falls apart, it's toxic as all get out, and its made in plants without the same production standards as in America" got me thinking of things I buy and where they are from:
- Cars (of course I would go here first) IMHO are much better when made by Japanese firms, be it with Japanese or American workers. I don't care for South Korean or German cars either. - TVs - I have a Sony and a Samsung TV and both are of excellent quality and I would highly recommend both. One of my TVs was made in somewhere in Asia and the other in Mexico. - Movies - Saw The Dark Knight last night and it was excellent! American made movie there (filmed mostly in Chicago)! With some location shots in Hong Kong for a little flavor. - XBOX 360 - Love the machine but it sure is poorly put together. I think its a combination of cheap parts and shoddy manufacturing. No idea where it is made. - Dell laptop for work - Made in Malaysia. Piece of junk, I hate Dell. I have a Gateway PC at home and its a million times better. No idea where it was made.
So I think where something is made doesn't have definitvie impact on quality. Too many vaiabilities. I think it has much more to do with the firm directing the manufacturing than the manufacturing itself. If a company demands high quality it will get high quality...if its willing to pay for it.
The American people cannot continue to sell bubbles to each other to make a living .....do you get it? So go ahead and keep thinking that your [sic] getting a great benefit by being able to buy cheap junk from Wal~Mart, but don't discount the American peoples' ability to make cheap junk also. So much of that junk from China is also marked up way more than it should be.
Here's the good news: high energy prices & the cheap dollar are changing the math behind outsourcing. American manufacturers are beginning to find that it's cheaper overall to make stuff here, close to customers, than it is to manufacture it 10,000 miles away & then pay to ship it back to the States. Read the business press & you'll see what I mean. Outsourcing came of age in the 90s, when the economic environment was entirely different. It's a much less attractive proposition now.
That's why I'm an unapologetic anti-regulation pro-free market libertarian. I like my capitalism straight up & undiluted. The free market has a marvelous capacity to correct itself. Anyway, I've long observed that automation - not outsourcing - is the great job-killer. If a job is outsourced to Mexico or China, there's a pretty good chance that it will eventually come home. But if someone invents a new process that eliminates the need for that job, then that job is dead & gone.
I think you can also add to what made the 90s so good for the math for outsourcing was cheap fuel...with oil at approx $20 barrel, gas was...what...$1.00 a gallon, diesel was cheaper...so the cost of transport was NOT a factor in going overseas IF they could save on labor...without beating a dead horse, if you compare UAW costs with Asian labor costs, the Asian labor PLUS the cost of transport was probably still less than the cost of UAW labor...so the product was cheaper to make outside the US...
Now, transport costs have become a major factor, but they have also solved the UAW labor problem (at least the imports have) by building in the nonunion South...
The formula may not be perfect, but it may bring manufacturing back here...drop the corp tax rate for 33% to 10%, and I think that it will come back much faster...
It's a real blessing to have you on board. Chindia, is killing our country and it seems that the majority of people look at these empty suits and believe their hawg wash all because they have a fancy title called CEO or something. They went to Yale/Harvard, etc... and have a education thus they are so much smarter than that union slob operating that robot !!! Just because they are business people with a fancy college degree, DOES NOT make them right, nor does it mean they have integrity. It amazes me how naive people are in this country and believe anything a CEO, says. I've been a first hand witness during labor union strikes when a company puts out B.S. numbers and when union people like myself call their bluff we don't have the same credibility. The obvious reason to why is because we are just a average slob, don't have the fancy title, money, power, nor respect. The system is and always will be set up for the ubber wealthy and the common slob will always have their integrity questioned !!! :sick:
-Rocky
I think Calvin Coolidge, said it best : "The business of America is business"
Don't forget this Congress that is supposed to be so labor leaning, mandated CFL bulbs that are not made in the USA. All made in China. They will be shutting down the GE Union shop that made incandescent bulbs. If anyone finds a CFL made in the USA let US know before we lose all those jobs to China.
As much as I hate to admit it gagrice, I have to agree with you on this subject !!!
It's a blessing we have people like Pelosi, as wacko as she is because if we didn't have the radical greenies our country would be polluted like China or Mexico.
My best friend lived in Mexico, for 5 years and went back for a visit a few weeks ago. She told me her friends sister threw a candy wrapper out in the yard with absolutely no regard of wear that will end up and ya wonder why their streams are white with trash floating in them ??? She said something to her but had little impact. Thank-god, I was raised the way I was !!!!
Non-UAW produced Kia's are still flying off the lot up in Manistee, MI, rock. Apparently Optima's are very hot, outselling Spectra's now.
I wouldn't go that far iluv !!! I still don't see many hykia's here in Michigan. The Hykia's are union-made in Korea, but obviously the labor rate is significantly less there. The Genesis, is a bad-[non-permissible content removed] car though for the money and might be the best luxury car money can buy for 2009.
Just watch the business news for one week and you will find that the talking heads speak more about global markets than they do about what is happening to the old U.S.A. If you gave a corporation its way, it would ignore Americans starving but then say business expects to make up for Americans being broke by selling globally and then they would go into how well they are doing in XYZ country. It's just shameful.
What goofs greedy people are! They shoot themselves in the foot. Did a thought take place in the greedy pigs' minds that if Americans don't have jobs they won't be able to buy their hyped-up products? They are too stupid to think that they can starve the American work force, yet continue to expand. But that's all they care about -expansion in a WORLD of consumers .
I suppose U.S. corporations think that Americans can support them by buying their stocks with no jobs. But that's OK, because they can sell their stocks to the WORLD. Then after the investments go bad, Wall Street can insist that the poor American taxpayers can pay for their losses. Sure, when they won't even provide live-able jobs for Americans.
Wise up everybody! You can't have a global world economy unless all countries play by the exact same rules, which is never going to happen .You would have to standardize all wages worldwide and the cost of living would have to be the same in every country and you would need to have the same laws and protections. This will never happen so it is silly for the corporations to try to BS why they are using slave labor for production. It's called G-R-E-E-D!
"Our economy started collapsing a long time ago. American women went into the workforce because their husbands' wages were not keeping up. That looked like a new prosperity, except for our kids whom we had to abandon to organized babysitting. Then, after free trade shipped our jobs overseas and our dollar started falling, we had to have stores like Walmart where we had a pretense that our wages were going to pay for our necessities. Now that our jobs are overseas, our wages are cut - I personally make 60% less this year than last, even Walmart is raising prices. Like I said many years ago, you keep buying a cheap hotdog everyday for lunch, and one day that is the only choice you are going to have."
you keep buying a cheap hotdog everyday for lunch, and one day that is the only choice you are going to have."
The only Hot Dogs I ever buy are the ones from Costco. They are $1.50 including a soda. Guess what else? The Costco I shop at is UNION, Teamsters to be exact. That is my main place to shop. I only get the hot dogs once in a great while, when I have a giant urge for one. Not all Costco stores are union shops. Only the ones that were Price Club before the buyout.
This will never happen so it is silly for the corporations to try to BS why they are using slave labor for production. It's called G-R-E-E-D!
I don't think greed is exclusive to management. I have seen more than enough greed at the Union bargaining table as well. Integrity is not exclusive either. More than not greed trumps integrity in this World. America has flaunted its wealth and prosperity to all corners of the Earth. What would you expect some poor person in a mud hut with a dish TV to think? They want the good life they see in America. They see the glamor of Hollywood and the high paid sports figures. Many think we are all rich in this country. This whole globalization went into full swing about the time of WWone.
If we got all the mining and manufacturing back that we have lost over the last 75 years we would not have close to enough people to do the work. Even today the unemployment in the USA is way lower than most of the EU. Many illegals around here will not work for less than $10 per hour. Most are getting more if it is a semi skilled job. When they get the loopholes closed that allow them to get work. We will have a massive manpower shortage in this country.
I seem to recall reading somewhere, long time ago, that part of the fall of USSR was that the Soviets apparently saw TV shows (how, I do not know) like DALLAS, with the wealth of JR Ewing, and shows like Dynasty...they thought that is how Americans lived...
I don't know about the USSR, but Romanians loved "Dallas" and Larry Hagman is a big star there even now, so he gets paid well to do commercials for that country. It's a pity he's further to the Left than most of his ex-communist audience.
I have some American-made products that I'd put up against anything out there. Unfortunately, many of them are older than I am. I tried to buy an American-made floor jack, but not only did I have a hard time finding one, those I did find were 5-6X the price of the Chinese junk I could buy at Sears. I can't afford to spend money like that and will use the Chinese crap until it fails and then buy another, at least until my uncle kicks off and leaves me the US-made jack he bought 50 years ago in HS. I did, however, just spend double to get a US-made shovel from what's left of Ames Tool and they appear to be among the last ones in their catalog, so get one while you can if you want one.
Just bought a U.S. made transfer shovel for my garden in early spring. Heck I AM the type who will spend 5-6 times to get that U.S. made jack that will probably still be in use by my descendants after I'm long dead. I believe in buying the best tools possible regardless of cost.
What's scary about that is that the Chinese and Indians can be taught that very same knowledge, and apply it there for us, much cheaper. I find it GALLING that people could spend over $100K for a college degree, and STILL be at risk to lose their job to some overseas company. Unfortunately, fuel doesn't have that type of impact on telecommunications.
Anyone who thinks India is going to be home to the next wave of industrialization is very much overlooking that Indians have leapfrogged the Chinese by focusing on becoming knowledge workers, not a set of hands to produce some piece of crap to be sold at Wally World. Pharmaceutical and biotech jobs are moving to India as we type, so there's one place US knowledge workers are already looking toward being outsourced and the high values and low bulk of these products will keep them safe from the issues of high bulk transport costs associated with off-shoring production.
I find it GALLING that people could spend over $100K for a college degree
I find it horrible that are youth are going to college, paying huge amounts of money, jammed into auditoriums, listening to a student teacher lecture. The course studies written by the guy that supposedly teaches the students. When in fact he is off someplace promoting his next text book. The sooner we get online education up to speed we should be able to cut that $100k to about $10k. I would love to see us put a lot of those liberal elitist professors on unemployment.
Pharmaceutical and biotech jobs are moving to India
Not only that. A lot of people in need of medical procedures are traveling to India and Thailand to get affordable treatment. A joint replacement is a fraction of the cost to have it done in the USA. Maybe the AMA will be the next Union to start losing members.
A lot of people in need of medical procedures are traveling to India and Thailand to get affordable treatment. A joint replacement is a fraction of the cost to have it done in the USA. Maybe the AMA will be the next Union to start losing members.
The word liberal is in my vocabulary, go ahead and get it out Duke my friend. Liberal means you are a partisan of liberty in it’s social, political and economic forms. If that is a disease let it spread! Our founding fathers were liberals in the John Locke vein, who prized liberty over tradition, opposed concentrated power, and thought we should fear our government more than revere it. Adam Smith was a liberal, who understood that free trade and freedom were intertwined, and that while supporting steel tariffs might help you win votes in Pennsylvania, it distorts prices and ultimately steals from consumers to “pick winners” rather than letting markets decide. John Stuart Mill was a good liberal, describing the threat of popular opinion as being as much a tyranny as any King on a throne and arguing that people should be free to engage in whatever behavior they wish as long as it does not harm others.
Now I get it that you are out to bash folks who’ve taken the liberal tradition and remixed it in ways you don’t approve, but that is no reason to take down a perfectly good word and misuse it.
I hate to see you lined up with abusing language. Orwell wrote about how language would be manipulated to reduce the ability to ever speak the truth. That is what is happening to that word.
People misuse liberalism as a slander to attack what they actually practice (that’s what you are doing) and others misuse it as a cover for statism or other types of collectivism (I think that is the disease you are after) but that doesn’t change the meaning of liberalism or the tradition it represents. Saying Americans “masses” don’t understand this usage is insulting. First their are no “masses”: just individuals who all have the means to learn what the word means and the tradition values. To give up on the proud tradition of liberalism and start using it as a slander is a mistake. You cut yourself off form the liberal tradition and make it that much harder to describe its values accurately to others. Don’t help build an Orwellian lexicon where “liberal” means something bad instead of something good. This is updownism. It’s a misuse of language that is beneath intelligent discourse.
Liberalism is not ancient rhetoric – the issues liberals support are as pressing today in the fight for liberty around the world as it was when liberalism came ashore on the New World. There is certainly nothing conservative about fighting wars to protect human rights and institute democracy. It’s classic liberal radicalism of the Tom Paine variety that believes humans weren’t born with saddles on their backs to be ridden by others (apologies for mixing a paine reference and a jeffersonian image, but it helps the larger point). From what I’ve read, you are a classical liberal. It’s not semantics that is the issue – it’s philosophy, history, and ideas I care about.
I don’t like seeing people mangle a political tradition – be it a socialist who believes in “social liberties” but not economic ones, or a modern day “conservative” who too often doesn’t recognize the source of their own liberal beliefs, and too often sleepwalks into mixing social conservatism (morality politics) with a lazy attitude toward protecting individual liberties (like the truly Orwellian named “patriot” act). Milton Friedman makes clear what is wrong with your use of the term “liberal” in the first chapter of Capitalism and Freedom. And Friedman may be ancient himself, but his explanation of classical liberalism is eminently relevant today. This idea that the term is archaic is asinine. It may not work on talk radio, but any educated person ought to know what liberalism actual refers to (though few actually do). As I tried to point out, it is eminently relevant in an age of liberal military adventurism where we are actively pushing back conservative regimes abroad to try and advance liberal values like free markets, free elections, and human rights.
I’m with you on what is terrible about the Orwellian use of language, but you are doing it yourself by framing liberalism as a boogie man. You are trying to make white mean black and trying to blame it on the “masses” or mainstream usage is such a cop out. Step out of the matrix. Sure, you and George Will may want to conserve the nation’s liberal tradition, but you are no conservative in the traditional sense of the word. I know of a caliph or two who has a rather conservative outlook on the world, and it is pretty obvious you aren’t supporting his side in this global battle.
It is too bad that people talk about politics at a Rush Limbaugh level and abuse language by turning liberal into a bad word. I don’t think it takes us very far toward understanding the world around us. John Kerry and George Bush agree on far more issues than they disagree on – they represent the left and right wing of “American liberalism” – and to my mind, represent a sad chapter in the rather exhausted story of “American liberalism”, where neither is above supporting tariffs or takings when expedient or curbing liberty when political popular.
But if you aspire to keep company with folks who read Friedman and understand what he is talking about, you need to come to terms with the fact that liberalism isn’t the sickness you are claiming it is. It’s more like the cure. I would like to move Liberals to a more classical and orthodox Liberal philosophy, something within the spirit of those early Republicans who strove for the abolition of slavery.
Great post ! Actually I consider myself a libertarian. Which translates in to ultimate personal freedoms but staunch fiscal conservatism. The by law is that that which governs least governs best. We're a confusing breed. Conservatives love us because we place high value on personal responsability, believe in living within your means, are anti big government and demand that all debts be paid with no government assistance. Liberals love us because we could give a s**t whether you're gay, believe in abortion, want stem cell research and desire to help the lowest casts of American society. Quote on, of the " Big Milt Himself " For I am indeed a follower of the University of Chicago school of thought and a monetarist. Though now deceased he would never have been a candidate for Fed Chief since he advocated abolishing the Fed 25 years ago and raising the money supply a few percent and adjusting there after. His opinion of current Fed action was that it was like going to a target range, shooting at targets in the dark and later turning on the lights to see if you hit anything. RIP Milton Friedman
imidazol97, etc.... ya'll think the 95-99' Buick Riveria, idea is a good option for a guy on a tight budget but wants a nice, reliable, america, union-made car ???
I am offereing heavy odds that here is where the X marks the spot in the fall for the next fatal dagger to GM:
In a conference call with reporters, Mark LaNeve, GM's head of North American sales and marketing, said Cobalt and Malibu, both in extremely short supply, should do even better this fall when the Lordstown, Ohio, plant that makes the Cobalt adds a third shift and Malibu production is boosted at the Orion Township, Mich., plant.
There have been several of the Rivieras FWD that have been preserved here. Many spent time in garages as a 2nd or 3rd car and were only driven for travel or special occasions. I like that much better than the Aurora with the shortstar because of the 3800. Many of these cars have been owned by GM workers in this area. Some are being offered for sale. Just shows how well-made the UAW products have been.
I have wondered about the blithering idiots in public service in the state government. Here we go again. This is the 3rd lost data that has been made public in the State of Ohio. A year or more ago a laptop was left in a car at an apartment complex by a worker, who was part-time or a trainee.
Here the data was being held for programs to help Delphi and other workers who were UAW with benefits after they lost their jobs through whose-ever's fault it is. And now they have an additional problem.
I posted a newspaper link about a college type suggesting that the UAW caused the local Moraine plant which NOT UAW to end up closing because that saves a UAW plant somewhere. The local plant is IUE/XXX (I forget).
Well, those romantic-device Rivieras will get you the last two, but the first two are a toss-up. One gal about a mile down the road has two of them, one dark blue and one powder blue. The powder blue one seems to run fine, but the dark blue one has a nasty case of leprosy and doesn't appear to have moved in a year or two. To be honest, the best car the UAW built in our lifetime was the Geo Prizm.
"John Stuart Mill was a good liberal, describing the threat of popular opinion as being as much a tyranny as any King on a throne and arguing that people should be free to engage in whatever behavior they wish as long as it does not harm others."
Forgive me for responding to just 1 sentence in a long post, but doesn't the concept of free market contradict this when a company, in the name of raking in more profits, sends jobs overseas, putting Americans out of work???
For the U.S. auto industry, which, BTW, is losing money by the ton, & the workers it employs, the issue isn't the movement of jobs overseas. The problem is that American consumers don't want to buy what the Big Three is trying to sell.
When I reached driving age more than 40 years ago, GM alone commanded more than 50% of the market. Most of the cars that I lusted after - the Impala SS, the 4-4-2 &, above all, the GTO - were GM products. GM had an almost magical knack for designing & building cars that pulled people into showrooms. It was unquestionably the most successful manufacturer on the planet.
Today, the combined Big Three market share is less than 45%, while the Japanese brands have almost 43%. Although I'm no fan of unions, I don't blame the UAW for this state of affairs. I blame Ford, Chrysler &, most of all, GM for failing to offer us exciting products. They don't make many of us want to visit a domestic showroom. That's particularly true for those of us who are "car guys" as opposed to "truck guys". Where are the really exciting domestic cars?
I want a compact to mid-sized sedan with RWD & better-than-average performance. The Cadillac CTS is a beautiful car, IMO, & I'll certainly drive it when I'm next in the market. But apart from the CTS & possibly the Pontiac G8, which might be too large for me, what else do the domestic companies have to offer?
You won't hear me bash domestics as "junk". I'm confident that most UAW-made products will last me for at least 8 to 10 years with routine maintenance. I think that the reliability gap has been largely closed. But with the notable exception of the CTS, where's the excitement in the domestic lineup? Where are the great American cars?
You make a good point and are pointing in the right direction.
The CTS and G8 look like the right thing. Heck, the G8 is even in a price range I can think about.
A lot of the newer models that are out there are way ahead of what we've been offered. The Malibu, the Aura (I don't know if its long term prospects are good just because Saturn looks to be be dying on the vine), the Enclave in its various forms (not my cup of tea but a real leap forward and holding its own in a segment that's shrinking rapidly)...
I like that Ford is committing to building European models over here to market here. It's about time. It would be nice if they started building Fusions here.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
"The problem is that American consumers don't want to buy what the Big Three is trying to sell."...that is certainly one of the points that I have tried to make over many posts...we can disagree on whether "junk" was the proper term, or whether the problem was the UAW, but that is the most sweeping accurate generalization of the problem that we don't want what they sell, for whatever reason...
But here is another question I have often asked...why can't we tear down an Accord, a Camry, a 3 series and 5 series and simply reproduce their best attributes and add our own form of style and design???...since GM is the master at badge engineering, who cars if the car resembles an Accord???...or a 325???...
I simply cannot believe that we cannot make a 4 cyl engine as good as an Accord, or a suspension as good as a 325...BMW does not have a patent lock on springs, shocks and sway bars, and that is what makes up the suspension...why can't we make a handling machine like BMW, or a smooth and quiet 4 cyl like Honda or Toyota???
It is obvious that the MARKET likes what Hon/Toy make, so why can't GM and Ford imitate that???...maybe give us a reason to buy, like when the 4-4-2, Impala SS and GTO were some of the nicest cars made???
Did they fire all their stylists???...the nicest Big 3 car ever made was the Cutlass series, 70-72, Rocket 350-4bbl, 400 trans, 4-4-2, Doc Watson, all that stuff...why can't they bring back THAT Cutlass (under another nameplate, since Olds is gone)...
An exciting car can mean different things to different people. A 400+ hp muscle car might be exciting to one person while another car loaded with all the latest bells and whistles and tech gadgets might be exciting to someone else.
Anyway, have you looked at the new SRT Challenger? Apparently a lot of people think it is exciting since the dealers report that they are selling them above MSRP.
Maybe they don't qualify as domestic because they are built in Canada.
An exciting car can mean different things to different people. A 400+ hp muscle car might be exciting to one person while another car loaded with all the latest bells and whistles and tech gadgets might be exciting to someone else.
To comment on this post and Marsha's, why wouldn't the Big 3 try to put high quality vehicles in all of the major market segments that large numbers of customers find desirable? For GM, they're working on a retro muscle car (Camaro) and a plugin hybrid that's reportedly going to cost $40K - what is the market size for those cars? Not as big as the market for economy cars, or midsized family sedans. It's taken at least 20 years for GM to get even somewhat close to the quality and refinement of the Camry/Accord with the new Malibu.
To an earlier post, I also like smaller cars, but I want high quality and refinement. When I was looking in 1985 I was poorer than today, so I bought a 1985 Jetta. The US competition at the time was something like a Tempo/Topaz. When I wanted a more premium small sporty car in 1998 I bought an Audi A4 - what was the American competition for that? Nothing. In 2005 I wanted a slightly larger premium sedan that was still a bit sporty - I bought an Acura TL. What was my American competition? How many other people are similar to me?
I really applaud that Ford is going to bring many of its European models to the US - but why did this take so long? Why did the US never get the second generation Focus that has been in Europe for a long time? I just don't understand why I can go to Europe and see many quality smaller cars (some even with US nameplates on them), yet I can't get them here!!!! I know the US makers liked the profitability of the SUVs and trucks, but they had to know that gas wouldn't stay cheap forever. And there was no contingency plan....
To comment on this post and Marsha's, why wouldn't the Big 3 try to put high quality vehicles in all of the major market segments that large numbers of customers find desirable? For GM, they're working on a retro muscle car (Camaro) and a plugin hybrid that's reportedly going to cost $40K - what is the market size for those cars? Not as big as the market for economy cars, or midsized family sedans. It's taken at least 20 years for GM to get even somewhat close to the quality and refinement of the Camry/Accord with the new Malibu.
The capacity to produce small, four-cylinder cars may be what separates the successful from the struggling in the auto industry for the rest of 2008. CNN Money notes that Honda, with its sales growth in June, "has the capacity to build 400,000 Honda Civic small cars annually." GM, which saw a 21 percent drop in sales, "can build only 250,000 Chevy Cobalts."
Behind as usual, the striking thing that doesn't change for the US Three ia the fact that they area ALWAYS behind since the very early 70's and before. that. I also want to point out that Marsha7 asked a perfect question which proves out ever time I get in my 330xi...why am I driving this highly capable car and the US can't produce anything even close? The CTS prior to 2007 was a warmed over Catera.
I also drove the 128i and 135i and guess what? GM, Ford or Chrysler do not and probably never will produce an awe inspiring ride that both performs and is efficient to that level.
I really applaud that Ford is going to bring many of its European models to the US - but why did this take so long? Why did the US never get the second generation Focus that has been in Europe for a long time?
Will those cars be built by UAW workers here? Did any of the UAW restrictions have an impact on building smaller cars in the USA? Can the not so Big 3 build small cars with UAW labor and make a profit competing against HonToy wages and benefits?
The UAW wages the Big 3 had to pay had to affect their ability to spend money and to design a small car that had accoutrements that made them as interesting as some of the others built by foreign brands with cheap labor and lower structural costs.
Some of the attempts at small cars were somewhat crude because of cost-saving measures. Some of the need for spending less was because of highly paid management and salaried workers at the Big 3.
It appears to me the biggest problem was inability to close plants and build news ones because of labor commitments to the UAW to maintain employment numbers-hence the workers paid for doing nothing that seems to be so highly ridiculed without considering from whence it came by some.
Comments
" My friend is there a difference in free trade and fair trade? Knowing macro economics is just silly for knowledge sake. We must apply common sense to the principals. Perhaps, IS and LM curves are only good in theory. "
You might throw in Micro and Econometrics but darn dude, just when I thought there was a chance I might agree with you . Then you expand I and I find myself on the other side.
First of all I agree with you on the financial sector. They have been guilty as sin of abusing not only the fed but the federal government. A bigger bunch of dumbasses who are not smarter than a trilobyte much less a 5th grader have there never been.
It would be so nice to stick it to them if their inner child wasn't so damn mean and in retribution they wouldn't try to implode the US economy. Worry not about estate tax it is going to get "very intereresting " in 2010.
"Then after the DOT COM bust brought out the well to do conservatives who sued in California (Radio Shack and others) for overtime, and won big time in class action multi million dollar verdicts. Then we were told that there was a family value in comp time which was to be enacted. " No comment since I don't understand.
" These large concerns have taken control of govt as well as the media. They have done well in labeling and lobbying. If you think they aren't conspiring with communist China, think again. China has and will continue to support a large steel industry. The one metric that China is concerned with is JOBS. The high level communist and their families fear social unrest. This is not part of globalization and capitalism. Is anyone crying foul? No, the more efficient steel plants will go out of business and the workers there will lose employment. Multi nationals are being blackmailed by these communist. Copyrights and intellectual rights aren't a reality in China and no one brings this up. As the CEO of Calloway put it "its just the price of doing business in China".
The Chinese are inscrutable, or inscrewable, depending on your preference. Efficient steel plants going out of business? Hmm, far from it. Multi nationals blackmailed by China ? They are standing in line. Piracy in China, again I agree. There might have been one legal copy of Windows sold in China but I might be mistaken that there was one. The rest gets confusing except I do agree that the chinese will make any substitutions for 1/10 of a cent more profit. Methylglycol in toothpaste ? What's your problem ? It's kinda close to glyercine . Lead in toys, yes, embalming fluid in pyjamas? Sure .Personally I'm in favor of CEO abuse. Many skipped work ethic 101.
Govt subsidies to Airbus in Europe, steel mills here in America have been seen as protectionist policy. The case has been made by many including Boeing and prior by all our closed steel mills. Everyone should see East Chicago to see real economic chaos. Hence, the defense dept looks at the Boeing/Airbus bids differently. These are nothing but a inverse tariff which robs the consumer and more efficient producer.
For years Japan has protect its beef industry. Just order you a steak there and you see the burden$$$. Then Argentina and or America is denied entry into that market. However, when you see these Asians on vacation they seem to frequent the steak houses for all three meals. Both consumer and producer are robbed.
China is now the biggest producer of steel.
The steel industry seems to be flourishing so I don't understand your comments unless it refers to the 80's/90's ? Boeing tried to game the defense dept and got caught. None the less they may still end up winning as congress wants the home team to win.
Johnnyell, no comment but if you are not an internet scammer please state the reason for your post and why. Apologies but your post reminds me of emails I get for Viaagrah. The mixing of small and lower case as well as poor grammar is usually a clue.Btw. Robin Williams aka Mork from Ork used nano nano first. Stock market decades usually end on a speculative bubble with something that is cool in analysis but has no associative economics. Alternative energy-'70's, biotechnology - '80's, dot com/emerging tech- 90's, nanotech- 00's ? But you'll have to wait in line. We have to get through this credit debacle, oil bubble first.
Having a world labor force is a joke and it benefits the corporations far more than it does the American people. The fact that you might have to pay a little more for products that are produced in America is a small price to pay to keep jobs here and to stimulate the economy by having employed people spent money here.
The fact that Americans have been conditioned to accept the junk made by other countries' slave labor is a joke. The crap made abroad falls apart, it's toxic as all get out, and its made in plants without the same production standards as in America.
The cost of foreign labor has been the biggest con job that the corporations have thrown on the public here in America. Do you think China would be stupid enough to have America product all their products or any country for that matter. If you look at the overall cost to the America society by the switch-over to foreign production of our products, there is no question that its has been a fleecing in favor of the corporations.
Just who has been controlling this country for the last 15 years anyway? I admit that the unions went a little too far with their demands in the past, but that could have been settled and worked out, but instead Big Business sold America out to the lowest bidder labor force around the world. I bet the Chinese worker doesn't get a health insurance policy or profit sharing.
What is the justification for America giving up its industrial base and its jobs to the world? What can they say, that America gets to buy cheaper products at Wal~ Mart, but X million will be out of work, will starve, and not spend money in the economy so we can get some cheap junk?
In all my years, it was rare that anybody was killed by toxic food or anything produced in the USA. Free trade is find if you add the necessary tariff or tax to even out the playing field. But this would only be true if there were strong protections on the quality of stuff coming in.
The American people cannot continue to sell bubbles to each other to make a living .....do you get it? So go ahead and keep thinking that your getting a great benefit by being able to buy cheap junk from Wal~Mart, but don't discount the American peoples' ability to make cheap junk also. So much of that junk from China is also marked up way more than it should be.
Nobody ever said that the USA owed a duty to the world to give it all its production so they could raise themselves up. This is PR spin by the people that benefit by the USA cutting off their nose to spite their face. In every way ,shape and form, you will discover that Corporate America, including Wall Street, with its evil greedy ways has been controlling the money markets, the cheap goods markets and you name it, especially in the last 12 to 15 years . The PR campaign for a global work force will accuse you of being too protectionist and that it's good for the world to be uplifted. Maybe China should start producing for their own people and maybe China should give its people a liveable wage?
I remember when my parents used to say, "Eat your food because people are starving in China." I use to say back to my parents, "Then they can move to America if they want to." I was naive, but you get my point.
One comment you made - "The fact that Americans have been conditioned to accept the junk made by other countries' slave labor is a joke. The crap made abroad falls apart, it's toxic as all get out, and its made in plants without the same production standards as in America" got me thinking of things I buy and where they are from:
- Cars (of course I would go here first) IMHO are much better when made by Japanese firms, be it with Japanese or American workers. I don't care for South Korean or German cars either.
- TVs - I have a Sony and a Samsung TV and both are of excellent quality and I would highly recommend both. One of my TVs was made in somewhere in Asia and the other in Mexico.
- Movies - Saw The Dark Knight last night and it was excellent! American made movie there (filmed mostly in Chicago)! With some location shots in Hong Kong for a little flavor.
- XBOX 360 - Love the machine but it sure is poorly put together. I think its a combination of cheap parts and shoddy manufacturing. No idea where it is made.
- Dell laptop for work - Made in Malaysia. Piece of junk, I hate Dell. I have a Gateway PC at home and its a million times better. No idea where it was made.
So I think where something is made doesn't have definitvie impact on quality. Too many vaiabilities. I think it has much more to do with the firm directing the manufacturing than the manufacturing itself. If a company demands high quality it will get high quality...if its willing to pay for it.
Here's the good news: high energy prices & the cheap dollar are changing the math behind outsourcing. American manufacturers are beginning to find that it's cheaper overall to make stuff here, close to customers, than it is to manufacture it 10,000 miles away & then pay to ship it back to the States. Read the business press & you'll see what I mean. Outsourcing came of age in the 90s, when the economic environment was entirely different. It's a much less attractive proposition now.
That's why I'm an unapologetic anti-regulation pro-free market libertarian. I like my capitalism straight up & undiluted. The free market has a marvelous capacity to correct itself. Anyway, I've long observed that automation - not outsourcing - is the great job-killer. If a job is outsourced to Mexico or China, there's a pretty good chance that it will eventually come home. But if someone invents a new process that eliminates the need for that job, then that job is dead & gone.
Now, transport costs have become a major factor, but they have also solved the UAW labor problem (at least the imports have) by building in the nonunion South...
The formula may not be perfect, but it may bring manufacturing back here...drop the corp tax rate for 33% to 10%, and I think that it will come back much faster...
It's a real blessing to have you on board. Chindia, is killing our country and it seems that the majority of people look at these empty suits and believe their hawg wash all because they have a fancy title called CEO or something. They went to Yale/Harvard, etc... and have a education thus they are so much smarter than that union slob operating that robot !!! Just because they are business people with a fancy college degree, DOES NOT make them right, nor does it mean they have integrity. It amazes me how naive people are in this country and believe anything a CEO, says. I've been a first hand witness during labor union strikes when a company puts out B.S. numbers and when union people like myself call their bluff we don't have the same credibility. The obvious reason to why is because we are just a average slob, don't have the fancy title, money, power, nor respect. The system is and always will be set up for the ubber wealthy and the common slob will always have their integrity questioned !!! :sick:
-Rocky
I think Calvin Coolidge, said it best : "The business of America is business"
As much as I hate to admit it gagrice, I have to agree with you on this subject !!!
"The Rock"
-Rocky
My best friend lived in Mexico, for 5 years and went back for a visit a few weeks ago. She told me her friends sister threw a candy wrapper out in the yard with absolutely no regard of wear that will end up and ya wonder why their streams are white with trash floating in them ??? She said something to her but had little impact. Thank-god, I was raised the way I was !!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
I wouldn't go that far iluv !!! I still don't see many hykia's here in Michigan. The Hykia's are union-made in Korea, but obviously the labor rate is significantly less there. The Genesis, is a bad-[non-permissible content removed] car though for the money and might be the best luxury car money can buy for 2009.
-The Rock
-Rocky
WOW !!!
-The Rock
Knowledge workers instead of laborers.
Regards,
OW
What goofs greedy people are! They shoot themselves in the foot. Did a thought take place in the greedy pigs' minds that if Americans don't have jobs they won't be able to buy their hyped-up products? They are too stupid to think that they can starve the American work force, yet continue to expand. But that's all they care about -expansion in a WORLD of consumers .
I suppose U.S. corporations think that Americans can support them by buying their stocks with no jobs. But that's OK, because they can sell their stocks to the WORLD. Then after the investments go bad, Wall Street can insist that the poor American taxpayers can pay for their losses. Sure, when they won't even provide live-able jobs for Americans.
Wise up everybody! You can't have a global world economy unless all countries play by the exact same rules, which is never going to happen .You would have to standardize all wages worldwide and the cost of living would have to be the same in every country and you would need to have the same laws and protections. This will never happen so it is silly for the corporations to try to BS why they are using slave labor for production. It's called G-R-E-E-D!
The article says one factor was closing this plant saves a UAW plant somewhere...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The only Hot Dogs I ever buy are the ones from Costco. They are $1.50 including a soda. Guess what else? The Costco I shop at is UNION, Teamsters to be exact. That is my main place to shop. I only get the hot dogs once in a great while, when I have a giant urge for one. Not all Costco stores are union shops. Only the ones that were Price Club before the buyout.
I don't think greed is exclusive to management. I have seen more than enough greed at the Union bargaining table as well. Integrity is not exclusive either. More than not greed trumps integrity in this World. America has flaunted its wealth and prosperity to all corners of the Earth. What would you expect some poor person in a mud hut with a dish TV to think? They want the good life they see in America. They see the glamor of Hollywood and the high paid sports figures. Many think we are all rich in this country. This whole globalization went into full swing about the time of WWone.
If we got all the mining and manufacturing back that we have lost over the last 75 years we would not have close to enough people to do the work. Even today the unemployment in the USA is way lower than most of the EU. Many illegals around here will not work for less than $10 per hour. Most are getting more if it is a semi skilled job. When they get the loopholes closed that allow them to get work. We will have a massive manpower shortage in this country.
Whether true or not, I wish I could say...
What's scary about that is that the Chinese and Indians can be taught that very same knowledge, and apply it there for us, much cheaper. I find it GALLING that people could spend over $100K for a college degree, and STILL be at risk to lose their job to some overseas company. Unfortunately, fuel doesn't have that type of impact on telecommunications.
I find it horrible that are youth are going to college, paying huge amounts of money, jammed into auditoriums, listening to a student teacher lecture. The course studies written by the guy that supposedly teaches the students. When in fact he is off someplace promoting his next text book. The sooner we get online education up to speed we should be able to cut that $100k to about $10k. I would love to see us put a lot of those liberal elitist professors on unemployment.
Not only that. A lot of people in need of medical procedures are traveling to India and Thailand to get affordable treatment. A joint replacement is a fraction of the cost to have it done in the USA. Maybe the AMA will be the next Union to start losing members.
xrays are already being perused for us in India.
Our founding fathers were liberals in the John Locke vein, who prized liberty over tradition, opposed concentrated power, and thought we should fear our government more than revere it. Adam Smith was a liberal, who understood that free trade and freedom were intertwined, and that while supporting steel tariffs might help you win votes in Pennsylvania, it distorts prices and ultimately steals from consumers to “pick winners” rather than letting markets decide. John Stuart Mill was a good liberal, describing the threat of popular opinion as being as much a tyranny as any King on a throne and arguing that people should be free to engage in whatever behavior they wish as long as it does not harm others.
Now I get it that you are out to bash folks who’ve taken the liberal tradition and remixed it in ways you don’t approve, but that is no reason to take down a perfectly good word and misuse it.
I hate to see you lined up with abusing language. Orwell wrote about how language would be manipulated to reduce the ability to ever speak the truth. That is what is happening to that word.
People misuse liberalism as a slander to attack what they actually practice (that’s what you are doing) and others misuse it as a cover for statism or other types of collectivism (I think that is the disease you are after) but that doesn’t change the meaning of liberalism or the tradition it represents. Saying Americans “masses” don’t understand this usage is insulting. First their are no “masses”: just individuals who all have the means to learn what the word means and the tradition values. To give up on the proud tradition of liberalism and start using it as a slander is a mistake. You cut yourself off form the liberal tradition and make it that much harder to describe its values accurately to others. Don’t help build an Orwellian lexicon where “liberal” means something bad instead of something good. This is updownism. It’s a misuse of language that is beneath intelligent discourse.
Liberalism is not ancient rhetoric – the issues liberals support are as pressing today in the fight for liberty around the world as it was when liberalism came ashore on the New World. There is certainly nothing conservative about fighting wars to protect human rights and institute democracy. It’s classic liberal radicalism of the Tom Paine variety that believes humans weren’t born with saddles on their backs to be ridden by others (apologies for mixing a paine reference and a jeffersonian image, but it helps the larger point).
From what I’ve read, you are a classical liberal. It’s not semantics that is the issue – it’s philosophy, history, and ideas I care about.
I don’t like seeing people mangle a political tradition – be it a socialist who believes in “social liberties” but not economic ones, or a modern day “conservative” who too often doesn’t recognize the source of their own liberal beliefs, and too often sleepwalks into mixing social conservatism (morality politics) with a lazy attitude toward protecting individual liberties (like the truly Orwellian named “patriot” act).
Milton Friedman makes clear what is wrong with your use of the term “liberal” in the first chapter of Capitalism and Freedom. And Friedman may be ancient himself, but his explanation of classical liberalism is eminently relevant today. This idea that the term is archaic is asinine. It may not work on talk radio, but any educated person ought to know what liberalism actual refers to (though few actually do). As I tried to point out, it is eminently relevant in an age of liberal military adventurism where we are actively pushing back conservative regimes abroad to try and advance liberal values like free markets, free elections, and human rights.
I’m with you on what is terrible about the Orwellian use of language, but you are doing it yourself by framing liberalism as a boogie man. You are trying to make white mean black and trying to blame it on the “masses” or mainstream usage is such a cop out. Step out of the matrix. Sure, you and George Will may want to conserve the nation’s liberal tradition, but you are no conservative in the traditional sense of the word. I know of a caliph or two who has a rather conservative outlook on the world, and it is pretty obvious you aren’t supporting his side in this global battle.
It is too bad that people talk about politics at a Rush Limbaugh level and abuse language by turning liberal into a bad word. I don’t think it takes us very far toward understanding the world around us. John Kerry and George Bush agree on far more issues than they disagree on – they represent the left and right wing of “American liberalism” – and to my mind, represent a sad chapter in the rather exhausted story of “American liberalism”, where neither is above supporting tariffs or takings when expedient or curbing liberty when political popular.
But if you aspire to keep company with folks who read Friedman and understand what he is talking about, you need to come to terms with the fact that liberalism isn’t the sickness you are claiming it is. It’s more like the cure.
I would like to move Liberals to a more classical and orthodox Liberal philosophy, something within the spirit of those early Republicans who strove for the abolition of slavery.
Great post ! Actually I consider myself a libertarian. Which translates in to ultimate personal freedoms but staunch fiscal conservatism. The by law is that that which governs least governs best. We're a confusing breed. Conservatives love us because we place high value on personal responsability, believe in living within your means, are anti big government and demand that all debts be paid with no government assistance. Liberals love us because we could give a s**t whether you're gay, believe in abortion, want stem cell research and desire to help the lowest casts of American society. Quote on, of the " Big Milt Himself "
For I am indeed a follower of the University of Chicago school of thought and a monetarist. Though now deceased he would never have been a candidate for Fed Chief since he advocated abolishing the Fed 25 years ago and raising the money supply a few percent and adjusting there after. His opinion of current Fed action was that it was like going to a target range, shooting at targets in the dark and later turning on the lights to see if you hit anything.
RIP Milton Friedman
MODERATOR
Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review
MODERATOR
Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review
-Rocky
In a conference call with reporters, Mark LaNeve, GM's head of North American sales and marketing, said Cobalt and Malibu, both in extremely short supply, should do even better this fall when the Lordstown, Ohio, plant that makes the Cobalt adds a third shift and Malibu production is boosted at the Orion Township, Mich., plant.
Ohio..io..io..io...
Stay tuned....
Regards,
OW
The Delphi workers were UAW and here's an Ohio news story that may not get much play outside of the state.
Delphi workers info "lost" stolen from state laptop
I have wondered about the blithering idiots in public service in the state government. Here we go again. This is the 3rd lost data that has been made public in the State of Ohio. A year or more ago a laptop was left in a car at an apartment complex by a worker, who was part-time or a trainee.
Here the data was being held for programs to help Delphi and other workers who were UAW with benefits after they lost their jobs through whose-ever's fault it is. And now they have an additional problem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Any comments?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Forgive me for responding to just 1 sentence in a long post, but doesn't the concept of free market contradict this when a company, in the name of raking in more profits, sends jobs overseas, putting Americans out of work???
:P
Good luck rocky, I hope you find a car, but more, I hope you find a job that suits your skills and desires...
They're hiring at the Georgia Kia plant...shall I send you an app???????
When I reached driving age more than 40 years ago, GM alone commanded more than 50% of the market. Most of the cars that I lusted after - the Impala SS, the 4-4-2 &, above all, the GTO - were GM products. GM had an almost magical knack for designing & building cars that pulled people into showrooms. It was unquestionably the most successful manufacturer on the planet.
Today, the combined Big Three market share is less than 45%, while the Japanese brands have almost 43%. Although I'm no fan of unions, I don't blame the UAW for this state of affairs. I blame Ford, Chrysler &, most of all, GM for failing to offer us exciting products. They don't make many of us want to visit a domestic showroom. That's particularly true for those of us who are "car guys" as opposed to "truck guys". Where are the really exciting domestic cars?
I want a compact to mid-sized sedan with RWD & better-than-average performance. The Cadillac CTS is a beautiful car, IMO, & I'll certainly drive it when I'm next in the market. But apart from the CTS & possibly the Pontiac G8, which might be too large for me, what else do the domestic companies have to offer?
You won't hear me bash domestics as "junk". I'm confident that most UAW-made products will last me for at least 8 to 10 years with routine maintenance. I think that the reliability gap has been largely closed. But with the notable exception of the CTS, where's the excitement in the domestic lineup? Where are the great American cars?
The CTS and G8 look like the right thing. Heck, the G8 is even in a price range I can think about.
A lot of the newer models that are out there are way ahead of what we've been offered. The Malibu, the Aura (I don't know if its long term prospects are good just because Saturn looks to be be dying on the vine), the Enclave in its various forms (not my cup of tea but a real leap forward and holding its own in a segment that's shrinking rapidly)...
I like that Ford is committing to building European models over here to market here. It's about time. It would be nice if they started building Fusions here.
But here is another question I have often asked...why can't we tear down an Accord, a Camry, a 3 series and 5 series and simply reproduce their best attributes and add our own form of style and design???...since GM is the master at badge engineering, who cars if the car resembles an Accord???...or a 325???...
I simply cannot believe that we cannot make a 4 cyl engine as good as an Accord, or a suspension as good as a 325...BMW does not have a patent lock on springs, shocks and sway bars, and that is what makes up the suspension...why can't we make a handling machine like BMW, or a smooth and quiet 4 cyl like Honda or Toyota???
It is obvious that the MARKET likes what Hon/Toy make, so why can't GM and Ford imitate that???...maybe give us a reason to buy, like when the 4-4-2, Impala SS and GTO were some of the nicest cars made???
Did they fire all their stylists???...the nicest Big 3 car ever made was the Cutlass series, 70-72, Rocket 350-4bbl, 400 trans, 4-4-2, Doc Watson, all that stuff...why can't they bring back THAT Cutlass (under another nameplate, since Olds is gone)...
An exciting car can mean different things to different people. A 400+ hp muscle car might be exciting to one person while another car loaded with all the latest bells and whistles and tech gadgets might be exciting to someone else.
Anyway, have you looked at the new SRT Challenger? Apparently a lot of people think it is exciting since the dealers report that they are selling them above MSRP.
Maybe they don't qualify as domestic because they are built in Canada.
To comment on this post and Marsha's, why wouldn't the Big 3 try to put high quality vehicles in all of the major market segments that large numbers of customers find desirable? For GM, they're working on a retro muscle car (Camaro) and a plugin hybrid that's reportedly going to cost $40K - what is the market size for those cars? Not as big as the market for economy cars, or midsized family sedans. It's taken at least 20 years for GM to get even somewhat close to the quality and refinement of the Camry/Accord with the new Malibu.
To an earlier post, I also like smaller cars, but I want high quality and refinement. When I was looking in 1985 I was poorer than today, so I bought a 1985 Jetta. The US competition at the time was something like a Tempo/Topaz. When I wanted a more premium small sporty car in 1998 I bought an Audi A4 - what was the American competition for that? Nothing. In 2005 I wanted a slightly larger premium sedan that was still a bit sporty - I bought an Acura TL. What was my American competition? How many other people are similar to me?
I really applaud that Ford is going to bring many of its European models to the US - but why did this take so long? Why did the US never get the second generation Focus that has been in Europe for a long time? I just don't understand why I can go to Europe and see many quality smaller cars (some even with US nameplates on them), yet I can't get them here!!!! I know the US makers liked the profitability of the SUVs and trucks, but they had to know that gas wouldn't stay cheap forever. And there was no contingency plan....
The capacity to produce small, four-cylinder cars may be what separates the successful from the struggling in the auto industry for the rest of 2008. CNN Money notes that Honda, with its sales growth in June, "has the capacity to build 400,000 Honda Civic small cars annually." GM, which saw a 21 percent drop in sales, "can build only 250,000 Chevy Cobalts."
Behind as usual, the striking thing that doesn't change for the US Three ia the fact that they area ALWAYS behind since the very early 70's and before. that. I also want to point out that Marsha7 asked a perfect question which proves out ever time I get in my 330xi...why am I driving this highly capable car and the US can't produce anything even close? The CTS prior to 2007 was a warmed over Catera.
I also drove the 128i and 135i and guess what? GM, Ford or Chrysler do not and probably never will produce an awe inspiring ride that both performs and is efficient to that level.
Oh well. I am probably asking too much here.
Regards,
OW
Will those cars be built by UAW workers here? Did any of the UAW restrictions have an impact on building smaller cars in the USA? Can the not so Big 3 build small cars with UAW labor and make a profit competing against HonToy wages and benefits?
Some of the attempts at small cars were somewhat crude because of cost-saving measures. Some of the need for spending less was because of highly paid management and salaried workers at the Big 3.
It appears to me the biggest problem was inability to close plants and build news ones because of labor commitments to the UAW to maintain employment numbers-hence the workers paid for doing nothing that seems to be so highly ridiculed without considering from whence it came by some.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,