The Future of Volkswagen in the U.S.

rockylee

I was checking out the prices on some used VW Phaetons on autotrader and boy they are actually very nice luxury cars. You can pick up the V12's pretty reasonable. It's a shame VW, could never rid it's image of being a builder of just economy cars ?

What's the future looking like for this company in the U.S. if they aren't going to be able to sell higher-end cars in quantity ?

Rocky

gagrice

VW should stick to what they do best. Leave the high end to their luxury division Audi. It would be the same as Toyota offering an LS type car as a Toyota. People that buy luxury cars do not want an economy car brand. VW is positioned very well right now with the best small diesel cars on the road. They are number one in the EU. If they resolve some of the reliability issues and get their dealerships more customer friendly they will make a comeback in the US. I loved the 2005 Passat diesel wagon I had. They need to offer the Jetta wagon in TDI. Drew VW that I used for service was great. I would have bought from them if they offered diesels in CA.

They also need to offer a 6 cylinder TDI in the Touareg. Not many people want that fire breathing V10 TDI they have on the lots now. It is the only diesel SUV you can buy new in CA and the wannabe states.

rockylee

Sounds like a good plan.

Rocky

andys120

Volkswagen AG, not Honda was the first to expand from a maker of economy brands to a maker of high-content luxury cars.

VAG introduced the Audi brand to the US in the early 70s, 20 years before the arrival of Acura, Lexus and Infiniti but apparently they need to relearn the lesson they taught the Japanese.

Reintroducing the Phaeton at this time is foolish. If I were VW Group I would rebrand the car as a Horch or Auto Union because hardly any one could justify to themselves spending the big bucks on a "Volkswagen".

gagrice

Wasn't it the Audi Fox that first hit here in the early 1970s?

andys120

Wasn't it the Audi Fox that first hit here in the early 1970s?

Audi's first US Model was the Audi 100LS, first exported to the USA in 1969, it was moderately successful, IIRC>



The smaller Fox (nee Audi 80) was introduced to the US in 1973.

guss

Speaking of the Fox, VW should be going after the sub $15k market before they go after the Phaeton market again.

If they could do a Fox to go after the Corolla\Civic\Focus market they will be getting alot of future Jetta and passat owners.

BTW the Audi Fox in your picture proves that nobody makes a better looking sedan than Audi. 40 years later and it still looks good.

andys120

Sorry if I confused you but that is not a Fox in that photo, it's a '69 Audi 100LS.

This is a Fox/Audi80 as it appeared '71-'74.>


Rumor has it VW is preparing a sub-$15K entry, I 'spect it will be Lupo-based and made in Mexico or Brazil.

fezo

that VW is realizing that it needs more of the cheaper cars. They now advertise that they have three under $17K.

That is certainly where their traditional market used to be. I would think they'd do better following that and top off at the Passat.

nippononly

really have a future in the U.S.? Sales are off.....AGAIN.....so go the reports. The Passat is new, yet sales are off. Some might say, way off. The professional reviews of the car aren't that great. The Jetta has been bargain-basemented in its second year after it stalled coming out of the gate.

The New Beetle is going to be barely refreshed, and the name change for the Rabbit didn't perk up sales. It's always the same old same old at VW. The Euro-dollar exchange is going to hurt them for quite a while yet, I think. So where will they find new sales? When they say they can't make any real profits off Jetta and Golf sales, how are they going to magically pull big profits out of sales of a $14K Lupo knockoff? I would have thought a slightly federalized Polo would do the trick - they sell them in Mexico already and you see them in the southern states all the time, cute little cars, nicely priced. But even if they did that, I don't suppose it would cure what ails them.

Then there is this big plan to finally bring back VW vans.....by borrowing almost everything from Chrysler (including production of the chassis, right?), the North American leader in fleet van sales, right when minivan sales finally seem to be doing the slow decline that people have long predicted but which has only recently materialized.

If I headed up VW, I think I might seriously consider pulling out of the U.S. for a few years and plugging away at the Audi sales, which apparently are very profitable, without any of the challenges the VW brand presents.

gagrice

I think the only thing VW really has going for it is the diesel cars. They sold good when available. They are claiming a 50 state TDI by 2008. I would say that is their only real chance at success.

fezo

You certainly ask a legitimate question and I think Gary has a plausible answer. Diesels could be the difference because they already have the engines.

The nearest VW dealer to me - 20 miles away burned down in late 99 early 2000 and it still hasn't been rebuilt! They are now slowly building. I'd bet that if the same thing happened at the Honda dealership they'd be open in trailers the next day!

boaz47

The single biggest problem for VW in the US is there is no word in German for parts and service. At least VW doesn't know of the words.

nippononly

LOL! :-)

fezo

I don't think they have a word for reliability either.

They win awards for creative electrical glitches though. Maybe that's what happened to old Lucas Electric..

benjaminh

One problem that VW has, in addition to reliability and service, is the technology of its base engines. Basically, the VW Jetta engines are duds compared to what's out there today. The Jetta has a 2.5 liter 5 cylinder engine that makes 150 hp and has EPA ratings of 22/30. The Accord--a substantially bigger car--has a 2.4 liter i-VTEC that has 166 hp and is rated 26/34. It makes it less likely that someone's going to buy a Jetta now that gas is around $3 a gallon. And VW's used to be economy cars in all senses of the word--purchase price and mpg. Add on top of that a well deserved reputation for shoddy quality and reliability and poor service (I too knew my VW service tech by name at one point) and you can see why the company is in such trouble.

boaz47

Yes, you knew him by name and every time they saw you coming they knew that would be able to afford to take the family back to Germany for their yearly Vacation. I will say that VW has earned their reputation in the US.

Kirstie_H

When I had a Jetta 2.0 VR6, I couldn't even get an oil change at a non-VW shop. Why? The techs told me that VW wouldn't sell their filters to them at any less than retail, so no one bothered servicing VWs.

It was a love-hate relationship... I really miss the way that thing drove. Fun, fun, fun.

boaz47

I understand. I have had three VWs in three decade mostly because I have been told each time that VW improved. Yes they could be fun but the last time I discovered the word Farfinnugan or however it was spelled meant "sucker". If not it should have meant if you are thinking about getting a VW for daily transportation the thought should be Far--from---your Noggin.

kyfdx

I love the new VWs.. But, the base engine, as noted, is anemic and thirsty.. and their reputation for reliability, or lack thereof, is evidently richly deserved.

All this and priced at a premium to the competition.

They really have the best designs, though.. I would take a Passat, Jetta 2.0T, or GTI in a minute.. Also, the Touareg is the best looking SUV made..

I really want a VW, but I doubt I'll ever get one.

nippononly

C&D this month is reporting the imminent arrival (Jan 2008) of the Jetta wagon, which apparently will pull 170 hp from the 2.5L base engine, without a decrease in fuel economy, so things could be a little less anemic in the base VW lines in the near future.

Of course, the 5-cylinder will still be thirsty. But I suppose models equipped with it will also be fast-ish for compact cars, and the fastest cars in this size class, like Mazda3s, Lancer, and Sentra SE-R/Spec V, will all be just about as thirsty, and more expensive in some cases.

edit...oh yeah, and I forgot to mention, DIESELS will be back at VW when the Jetta wagon arrives, and that's a 50-state diesel making 140 hp apparently. :-)

andys120

oh yeah, and I forgot to mention, DIESELS will be back at VW when the Jetta wagon arrives, and that's a 50-state diesel making 140 hp apparently.

Now they're speaking my language! :shades:

boaz47

even as much as I like the diesel idea knowing that VWs spend so much time in the shop will keep me away. And I will be needing another car by then. VW simply isn't a car for people who aren't interested in knowing the service manager by their first name. Like one other poster mentioned they reminded them of Lucas electrics.

I will admit they are often good looking machines and they seem to handle pretty well. But what good does that do you sitting on a flat bed or waiting in the shop for parts. VW has got to be happy that Land Rover and Kia make vehicles so they aren't all alone on the bottom of the JD Powers list anymore. In another twenty years maybe they will catch Hyundia.

harrychezt

2010 VW Beetle hatch(sporty looking car)....
I'd seriously consider a VW(as long as it is not 20K+ msrp, that is).
http://www.thetorquereport.com/spy_shots/

Only sketches, etc... still, very intriguing.
take care/not offense.

harrychezt

http://paultan.org/archives/2006/07/27/kia-rio-tops-us-compact-car-jd-power-iqs/- -
Not as far down the chart as they used to be, Kia.
This was from 2006.
I know, JD Powers...
Still, some people like to see charts
take care/not offense.

drfill

Give America what it expects out of them, fun, sub-$30k vehicles, with an alternative German style.

Scirocco needs to come back with V6 for around $24k.

Touraeg needs to be brought back to reality, get bigger, yet lighter, and stay between $25k and $35k.

Passat is getting too expensive as well. It should compete directly with Camry V6, and not exceed the low 30's.

Imagine a cap at $35k, then build cars that will fit under that cap, without seeming decontented.

Improve quality, if they have to leave Mexico to do it, so be it.

I know there is a currency problem, all the more reason to trim their lineups so their customers don't have to pay for those issues.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Drfill

texases

Here are two good discussions from a mechanic on VW's design issues:
article 1
Article 2

PS - I wish VW was better, I owned a '79 Scirocco and '83 GTI for 15 years total, great cars, no problems.

boaz47

I have often considered the IQS studies to be interesting but I prefer the three year reports myself. IQS is a bit like looking at a car on the lot. Absolutely nothing looked better than a old Jag on the Lot but as far as quality goes? VW and Kia are in the same quality boat and unless you plan on getting a new one every two years you will have to deal with VW service sooner or later. And that experience will keep me away for a very long time.

harrychezt

well, I have a Sonata, 04, 42K miles, nearly 3 years old. it's running. It does the job that was advertised: get me from point a to b, without any major issues.

Spouse's Scion(a Toyota)... tC, 05, 33months old, 80K miles. At 74K, the thermostat died... 200 dollars to be replaced,at Scion.
2 weeks later( about end of March this year) at 75K....
throttle body got stuck closed, and needed repairs. if not for our long term warranty we purchased... we would have paid around 1,100 dollars(on top of the 200...1,300 dollars, at around 75K miles).

Still like the car, but... it's a Toyota built car,thus
, it should never break

To be honest, without sounding like a jerk: I believe what I can see daily... either what I owned, or my neighbors own, or whatever.
If I see them driving their car every day, 5 years in a row, never towed in, gone for week.../o explanation ...etc...
I figure it must be a decent car.
Like me, turn the key, Sonata goes.
Been going 3 years nearly, 42K+ miles.
I expect it to keep going another 3 years, 42K+ miles, w/o any major issues(no problems with the engine, electrical, tranny, wheel bearings, axles , etc).

My 99 ran almost to 120K, and engine was fine, as was tranny.
It had issues... but it ran, daily. 5 years.
24K miles per year.

I saw a old rio( before the new one came out in late 05?).... guy has had it 3 years.. owner's name is Dean(first name)... 56 years old(the guy, not the car,lol).
Anyhow, he used to live by us(3years, his car is an 04, iirc)...and for 3years straight, he drove his 80
miles a day, to work,..20K per year ...and he had 67K on it when he left last Summer, moved closer to work).

He had no issues. Car did not sound loud, like muffler fell off, no smoke of any kind coming from the tail pipe,no rust, nothing.. He put the key in, started up every time, and off he went.
It may not be everyone's "cup of tea"... but it worked for Dean.
That's only 1 car I can verify, daily, with my own eyes, for over 3 years( 3 years, 47 days),
and my cars.. yeah... 3 years, 5 years(99 sonata), etc..
I can verify Nissan 200sx(97) or 90 Nissan Sentra xe, 3 speed automatic,87 Spectrum, 77 Camaro....

Surveys mean little to me, to be honest.
I want to See, Hear the thing, daily, like my neighbors car, my car, etc.. even in-laws vehicles.. they say what is wrong or not.
I can see, drive, etc, the cars after 3 years.
Survey may say junk... reality may be different.

I dunno.
Some say Toyota had sludged up engines ...and Toyota is taking care of any issues now.
Our tC engine did not sludge up, but it seized(throttle body) up.
Yet, survey says Toyota #1 quality, forever
My Sonata might have engine issues too at 75K. I can't say. My 99 did not.
To each their own,ya know?
take care/not offense.

fezo

What's it made of? Plutonium?

I would not be surprised if VW got me to nibble again. I've held out for 27 years now PR (post Rabbit).

It's a shame they don't get it on reliability because their cars are a ball to drive.

harrychezt

well, the spouse was on her way to work, and the car was acting up. She had to call off of work , and swing by Scion... to get the 20 dollar thermostat replaced.
180+ for service, 20 for part, plus taxes... over 213 dollars.
Another negative for owning a Toyota is their high service costs!
They recommend , *every 5 thousand miles, to rotate your tires and oil change= 49.95 plus taxes!
*I don't think so.

Like I said: 33 for oil change at Toyota, Hyundai is 21+, or about 12 dollars difference.
Sometimes $19 or $16 at Hyundai, if there's a special.

Best for Toyota? Around 30 dollars ,with taxes, for oil change.
VW... what shocked me, we test drove the Rabbit with automatic last July.... 20K, fairly loaded, and not even a sunroof added to the bill! It was decent 0-60 times, maybe 9 seconds or less.
Handling was ok. But, spouse and I both thought the gas/brake pedals were too close. I hit the gas, when I meant to hit the brake, and so did she,(in a empty parking lot, of course,where we were checking out turning radius, etc).
15-17K? Maybe. 20K? No Thanks.

take care. not offense.

fezo

Years ago I remember replacing a thermostat on a Saab. It stays in my memory because Saabs were quirky to work on before everyone got taht way. First experience with not be able to name things under the hood. "It over there by the thing that looks like a one pound coffee can painted black."

Anyway, total cost of repair $10. Buy thermostat at auto parts store, drop it in and tighten. You might like doing taht when the engine is cool...

I'm not sure if I know where the thermostats are in my cars. That's scary.

british_rover

They are not easy to find anymore. Theromostats I mean.

fezo

Yeah, and they used to be the easiest thing in the world.

Must have gone the way of the visible oil filter.

british_rover

I ran a service shop for about six years, I worked there for a total of eight years, that got well over half its revenue from oil changes.

Just in that short time span the evolution, I might say devolution, of the oil filter shocked me. We have gone back to cannister filters... :mad:

You can't find anything anymore and the housing the filter is surrounded by is made of plastic in many cars. It is so easy to round off the plastic housing on the cars even if you are using the right special tool. All you have to do is have the tool missaligned slightly to screw it up.

boaz47

I understand what you are saying. All of the surveys I ever read told me not to get a Ram Charger in 89 but that turned out to be one of the best trucks I have ever owned. Yes I took it off road and used it to tow a boat and for 11 years it did that without fail. Still the Dependability surveys can be used as a tool to help someone when their choices get down to two or three. Kia and VW have been at the bottom of the JD powers list for a very long time. VW is also known for poor parts and service so if you have a car that has been down in dependability for as long as VW it takes a great leap of faith to ignore the odds. However I agree almost all cars have gotten better so it is a comparative thing. Still, VW sales and service have had a bad reputation for some reason?

stever

It depends on which JD Powers survey you look at, but Kia has been right up there with Toyota in the initial quality survey in recent years.

My sister had a problematic 2000 VW New Beetle that finally started running ok after 100,000 miles. VW of America must have talked to her dealer, because their service improved about 180 degrees about three years ago. It was almost enough to convince her to take a flyer on a 2005 or 2006 Passat.

Almost, but not quite - she wound up with a Subaru for now.

fezo

If you're not going for a Passat a Legacy isn't a bad alternative. They drive more German than Japanese. A lot of fun. I'd own one now but bet wring on how much my kids would grow.

The Legacy isn't as big. I figured they'd top out about my height but they are around 5'1". Who knew?

stever

Guess I should have mentioned she wound up with a Forester.

"Just like mine."

Then I had to tell her that mine was an Outback. :P

fezo

Well, she was close anyway.....

nippononly

VW takes it to a whole new level, which is what turns me off. Not only do they have lots of problems, but sometimes even AT THE DEALER, even UNDER WARRANTY, your car cannot be repaired! That was the case at first for all those poor folks with failing ignition coils a few years ago, for instance. Can you imagine being without your car for six weeks or more waiting on a fix, then waiting on the parts pipeline to fill up?? It blows my mind that people will put up with that, regardless of how great the car itself is.

Needing lots of warranty service is one thing, having unserviceable problems is quite another.

british_rover

Our service advisor for our land Rover store is having that problem now. Our VW dealer cannot fix his car. They have tried over and over and they just can't fix it.

fezo

For reminding me. No VW. No VW....

boaz47

Sounds typical for VW service and parts. And that is the shame of it. I like the look and the way some of the VWs drive but I see a sign that says service and parts next to the car lot and I get panicky.

rockylee

Any recent new info on the much anticipated 09' Passat ?????

-Rocky

keithmoondaddy

I'm having a challenge finding a used automatic Tdi Jetta wagon, preferably '04, anywhere remotely close to San Diego. Do you have any suggestions or leads?

rockylee

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?model=JET&num_records=&systime=1- 193560333218&make2=&start_year=2004&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=- &body_code=0&fuel=Diesel&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search- _lang=en&make=VOLKS&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsear- chform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_t- ype=priceDESC&address=49509&advanced=y&end_year=2004&doors=&transmission=&max_pr- ice=&pager.offset=25&first_record=26

Found 2004's in California. Sure you might have to drive a little but sometimes that is the sacrifice you have to make to get what you want. Also shipping any of em' isn't that expensive. You will have to shop around for a carrier or you could have the dealer ship it to you. If you find a good deal then tell the dealer you will buy it if he ships it to you. Use it as a bargaining tool.

I hope I helped ?

-Rocky

gagrice

Welcome to the Forum.

As Rocky has linked, Autotrader is about the best to cover the whole country. I only see 4 Jetta wagon TDIs in the USA. They are a rare vehicle and most people hang onto them. That was a very good model in spite of poor press. I would also watch Craigslist. There is a dealer in Orange County http://www.vwtdionly.com/default.asp?newused=5 that specializes in VW diesels. The price is going to be stiff for a good one. I bought a 2005 Passat Wagon in Oregon brand new under invoice when the price of diesel was very high like it is now. The problem is VW is not sending in many wagons. Not sure if any are TDI.

andys120

i>The problem is VW is not sending in many wagons. Not sure if any are TDI.

Not yet but Jetta TDI Sport Wagons are due here in the '08 or '09 MY. I'll be checking them out when they get here.

rockylee

I am a little surprised at how good the resale is on them. :surprise:

I guess not much out their can match their mpg and durability (diesel). Would I be correct andys120 & gagrice ?

-Rocky

gagrice

I think the frenzy is all about mileage and something you cannot buy in CA and the other wannabe states. I don't think the durability is any better or worse. The diesel Jetta wagon is a cool little vehicle. And many owners get 50+ MPG on the highway with them. Finding a good VW diesel mechanic in CA could be a problem.

Not to labor the point. I was able to buy a brand new 2005 VW Passat diesel. Drive it for 13 months and 8000 miles and sell it for $3000 more than I bought it for new. That to me is a phenomenon. I would like to do it again. I just cannot find the deal on a new or used one that would allow for that to happen.

I hear from the gentleman that bought it every couple months. He loves that Passat wagon that gets him 40 MPG.