Did I say how many LX and GX are being used for off-roading? I would think not too many. However that doesn't mean that they are not true off-roading vehicles. There is a difference between on-road and off-road handling. If I have to do some SERIOUS off roading I'll pick the LX and GX over any other crossovers.
Don't give Lexus ANY credit for producing a "serious" off road SUV. If anything, whatever credit there is goes to Toyota for producing the Landcruiser and 4-Runner years or decades earlier. All Lexus did was slap a fancier interior and different sheet metal on those "trucks" and bump the price. You want to give Lexus credit? Give them credit for being too cheap to design from the ground up - they made their shareholders a boatload of money on US buyers selling them gussied up Toyota trucks. And, just for the "fair and balanced" record Acura didn't do any better in borrowing a truck from Isuzu and calling it the SLX.
Did that Cayenne went up against the LX and Range Rover or was it pitted against other luxury crossovers?
No crossovers allowed. This included 60 degree vertical rock climbing, side hill traversing, fording streams, mud extraction, etc. It's been at least a couple of years since I read the article, about the time we were considering the GX. The Porsche, with a changeout of high performance street tires and wheels to a set of off-road treads, perfomed unbelievably well (given that I'm sure very few owners have tried).
Lexus' V6 out performs both the turbo-charged or NA BMW I6.
Say what? IS350 vs. 335i? Who are you kidding?
Remember the 5.4 secs was recorded back in 1997 and that's 10 years ago. (The 0-60 time of the GS 400 prompted Lexus to claim that the GS was the world's fastest production sedan.) Show me a BMW 5-series or MB E-class that can do the same back then. That's right, you can't.
Check with Dr. Fill. He has the GS400 at 5.7 and the 540i at 5.5.
But, you raise another point that I need to respond to. Lexus, for all of their positive attributes, is about as lame as a over-testosteroned high school boy when it comes to making performance claims. Consistently, their marketing department will quote 0-60 times that are the very best time anyone has achieved going downhill, downwind, brake starting an automatic. Like that 5.4, "making them the fastest sedan on the planet". By comparison, BMW and Porsche are far more conservative. Porsche officially quotes the 911S at 4.6 seconds. Actual tests by MT, R&T and C&D put it at 4.4, 4.2 and 3.9. BMW is similarly conservative in their official quotes vs. actual road tests (especially with the 335i). But not Lexus. Oh no. If they could find a 0-60 time that involved somebody dropping the car off a building, it would become the "official" time. As though 0-60 is some kind of holy grail.
To your credit, you acknowledge that performance isn't just winning a stop light drag race, but equal parts handling. So look back at that 1997 GS400. I had a good golfing buddy that was one of the very first buyers. Opted for the 17" performance tire package for better handling. In less than 7,000 miles all 4 tires were shot, due to excessive body roll and lousy suspension on the GS. The suspension was clearly not "high performance" and incapable of keeping those tires flat on the ground. And my buddy was NOT an overly aggressive driver. After many consumer complaints, Lexus embrassingly replaced several thousand sets of those tires and rims with the standard (non-performance) tire. Ten years later, the 2007 SC430 still handles like it's got a lot of Buick in it's DNA.
If Lexus put half of the effort into suspension engineering that they do into "park itself" technology and Mark Levinson 20 speaker audio systems, they might gain a little more respect from enthusiasts. But I can accept that that's not how they have made their money and they have little motivation to change now.
P.S. Our weekend with the GX470 included a 15" snowfall in my hometown, which gets 120" annually. It handled it admirably, including some heavily drifted, unpaved roads. I have no issue with the GS's capabilities in that regard.
No crossovers allowed. This included 60 degree vertical rock climbing, side hill traversing, fording streams, mud extraction, etc. It's been at least a couple of years since I read the article, about the time we were considering the GX. The Porsche, with a changeout of high performance street tires and wheels to a set of off-road treads, perfomed unbelievably well (given that I'm sure very few owners have tried).
You have to a Low Range Transfer case to compete on the competition. That is the first qualification and there are money more.
Unfortunately the Land Cruiser beat out the Range Rover Sport by about a point. The sport they had seemed kind of doggy though. It recorded a 0-60 time of over 10 seconds when the most I have seen before was around 9 seconds. Also the 60-0 braking was about 15-20 feet longer then most other tests have recorded.
Four wheeler has about the lease friendly site to navigate though so good luck finding the rest of the article.
So which SUVs are in the comparo? You do know what crossover means right?
Say what? IS350 vs. 335i? Who are you kidding?
I thought we were talking about engines... :confuse:
Consistently, their marketing department will quote 0-60 times that are the very best time anyone has achieved going downhill, downwind, brake starting an automatic.
Do you have proof that the 5.4 times from Lexus was by going downhill, downwind? Before anyone who can prove the number is juiced I'll go with the fastest time. It's just too bad that C&D can't drive the GS400 to its fullest.
As for the performance tires on the GS400, never heard about it, tried to google it, nothing came up. If Lexus indeed replaced "several thousand" sets like you've stated I am pretty sure it wouldn't go un-noticed.
Never defended the SC430 before, it's the ultra trophy wife car.
If Lexus put half of the effort into suspension engineering that they do into "park itself" technology and Mark Levinson 20 speaker audio systems, they might gain a little more respect from enthusiasts.
Enthusiasts will buy 6000 cars from me every year and soccer mom, average Joe will buy 40 times of that...
Hmm, if I am Lexus what should I do?
Remember, this ain't Europe, we fat American like boulevard cruisers and shift-itself, park-itself cars.
Lexus doesn't have a "performance problem", it has an "image" and "prestige factor" problems. Many traditional BMW and MB owners still view Lexus as a second rated luxury car maker from Japan. By producing better performance cars won't help Lexus, only time will.
Oh by the way, can your 1995 Maxima do 0-60 in 5.4 (okay, I'll give you 5.7) seconds?
So who's smoking what?
I think a guy who drives a 911S should be at least man enough to admit his mistake, right?
The 335i tests out faster with an automatic than a stick, the 540i,545i and 550i are neck and neck stick to auto depending upon who's doing the road test.
But, if you're dishing out "shame" send a busload to Lexus engineers for their inability to even offer a manual transmission in anything but their lowest end IS250. And it's a rubbery piece of crap. Guess the engineers are too busy perfecting gadgetry for drivers that don't know how to parallel park to devote any effort to drivers that actually know how to drive a stick?
That should tell you all you need to know about Lexus's priorities.
So which SUVs are in the comparo? You do know what crossover means right?
From the 2006 Comparison.
As you know, in order to be invited to our annual test, a vehicle has to meet certain criteria, such as, but not limited to, having a two-speed transfer case, meeting the minimum production number of 500 vehicles, being all-new from the ground up or offering a significant change in drivetrain or suspension, and on sale by January 15, 2006. Those making it to this year's party were the Hummer H3, Jeep Commander, Land Rover Ranger Rover Sport, Suzuki Grand Vitara, and Toyota Land Cruiser.
It's laughable that anyone would think Toyota/Lexus doesn't have the ability to offer stick with any engine.
I don't doubt Lexus' ability, however I do question its commitment in building performance cars. That's why I'll reserve my judgment for the F-line until the IS-F has been tested out and pitted against competitors by car mags.
The X Package improvements also translate to the track, as our slalom test confirms. Although it's down over 100 hp on the IS 350, the IS 250 is nearly 4 mph faster through the cones with a 70.4-mph result. This is blazing speed, and it puts the IS 250 ahead of the BMW 335i, not to mention about a half dozen very capable sports cars.
I'll bet someone will now tell me that it's the real world performance that counts, not the slalom or skipad, or something like: it just doesn't feel confident enough, the platform is weak, suspension is soft, tires to big, it looks ugly...
Toyota hasn't produce that thing for a long time now.
If you go to Africa and Middle East the Land Cruiser they used currently is just a stripped down version of the one you'll find in every Toyota dealer.
The Landcruiser 100TD is the only SUV in the world that manage to go everywhere. The new generation premium Landcruisers has become an electronic evolution. They still use the 4,2 litre turbo diesel from the 80-series but boosted it with electronic engine management system. This 100TD was re-built and modified by LongVoyage incorporating raised air intake, ARB front and rear bumpers with a Warn 4,5 ton winch, recover eyes, extra fuel capacity of 300 litres, reinforced suspension and shockers, new engine management electronics giving approximate 240 diesel horse power and increased torque. 100% diff lock on rear axle and transfer box. A great 4X4 truck for long distance expeditions - but not to be used only for off the road driving. For heavy duty 4X4 driving I recommend the HDJ80, HZJ78 or the HZJ105 trucks. The truck is now-a-days owned by a happy fellow member in SWES.
On the GS400 Tire Replacement plan, I found a link that starts with:
1998 Lexus GS 400 V8-3969cc 4.0L DOHC MFI ... NOTE: For Tire Replacement: Please follow special claim coding instructions included in this bulletin. ...
Unfortunately, it's so old, that the link is dead: Tire Replacement
Before anyone who can prove the number is juiced I'll go with the fastest time. It's just too bad that C&D can't drive the GS400 to its fullest.
So you do work for Lexus marketing department? That's the same C&D, by the way that can drive a 911S a heck of a lot quicker than Porsche's official time. Maybe they put a girl in the GS400, since it doesn't come with a stick (just kidding - no offense to "redsoxgirl" or any other female enthusiasts).
Remember, this ain't Europe, we fat American like boulevard cruisers and shift-itself, park-itself cars.
Speak for yourself. I'm more likely to die on a baseball/softball field than in the stands.
Lexus doesn't have a "performance problem", it has an "image" and "prestige factor" problems. Many traditional BMW and MB owners still view Lexus as a second rated luxury car maker from Japan.
Are you kidding me? Lexus, a "prestige" problem? Certainly not in my area among my peers. Among them it simply comes down to "how much do I like to drive?" If you'd really rather be riding than driving, Lexus is number one. If it's the other way around, BMW is. Mercedes is smack in the middle. We are talking at the GS/LS level, not the IS. I actually don't know anyone personally that owns an IS to comment.
Oh by the way, can your 1995 Maxima do 0-60 in 5.4 (okay, I'll give you 5.7) seconds?
Why yes, it can. Downhill, downwind, with a 6,000 rpm clutch drop. Or dropped off a building. But that counts, right?
Seriously, I think I said, the GS barely outaccelerates my 1995 Maxima. The "best" road test time I ever saw for the Maxima SE 5-speed was 6.3, most were 6.6-6.7. That's probably a stretch of the term barely, but I can honestly tell you that when a friend was shopping in 1998 and took me along for back to back to back test drives of the GS430, E430 and 540iA sport, the GS430 felt the slowest of the three. Bad buttmeter that day? Quite possibly. But the 540iA sport felt significantly faster. If you have nothing better to do this weekend, why don't you try out a 550iA against the GS430 and post your opinion.
I think a guy who drives a 911S should be at least man enough to admit his mistake, right?
I'm no more of a man now than when I drove a Spa Yellow 2002 Honda S2000. Which is also to say, don't take any of my side of this car debate too personally. It's all in good fun.
The "Off-Road" test I saw was not a subjective comparison test that included ratings of interiors, exteriors or even mechanicals.
It was an objective commparison using mostly timed tests of how long it took each vehicle to complete a section of an obstacle course. A couple other objective measurements of how steep of a hill climb it could do, depth of water it could go through, etc. They left seat comfort, stereo systems and sexy exterior style out of the rankings.
No, I don't work for Lexus nor am on Lexus payroll. However, I'll give Lexus and those auto mags equal credit so I'll take anyone's fastest time until proven wrong. Different temperature, different condition and different drivers can also effect the results.
When I said "we fat American like boulevard cruisers and shift-itself, park-itself cars." I was referring to the general population. You can't argue that people like you are in the minority. Just look at what kind car we have on the street then it's pretty clear.
Why are you comparing GS430 to the 550i? I can use my knee to think and it'll tell me that the GS430 will be much slower. Also I think I'll believe a Lexus tester's stop watch before I take habitat's buttmeter into consideration.
There are three or four different four wheeler magazines that do a four wheeler of the year competition. I used to subscribe to all of them but I don't remember which one or which year the Cayenne won in. It scored third or better in all of them and won one magazines test.
It wasn't peteresens although that one did have the Toureg win which is almost the same as the Cayenne.
I would not consider a 4.2L Turbo Diesel a stripped down version. I would consider it a far superior version to the one they peddle over here for soccer moms. The last real Land Cruiser. Posted in smaller size. Too bad they lost their way as standard.
You need to read the rest of the thread. Me and habitat got our signals crossed on the magazines.
Now just to make it clear I don't particularly like either the Cayenne or the GX470 but I would take the Cayenne off-road over the GX470 and I probably have more off-road driven miles, except for maybe gagrice just cause he is old as sin, under my belt then any of you guys. I have even been to more then one off-road driving school and acted as an instructor/spotter at those schools.
The LC is still a capable off-roading truck, just not yours liking anymore. The LC has evolved just like the rest of us and rest of the auto industry. Toyota is out there to keep up with the technologies and the rest of the society not to satisfy a single, or handful customers.
However, I am pretty sure if you are willing to provide ALL the funding then Toyota would be more than glad to bring back the old LC and build one just for you.
That is the post I am referencing. If you think the Luxo Barge from Lexus would compete with the Land cruisers you have posted . I don't know what to tell you. Beside the fact they will run on just about any old diesel fuel you dump in the tank. Try putting anything but Premium in your Lexus. Lexus is barely known outside the USA, so how can it be considered a standard anything?
I went on one of the first Tierra del Sol runs in the 1960s with my new 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser. That was when they were REAL off-road vehicles. How would the GX or LX handle this situation? My LC was a little longer than the CJ I was following.
Those LC in post 166 are exactly the same as the Lexus LX470 but without the leather seats and other goodies. As matter of fact, go to your local Toyota dealer, find a LC, imaging what it'll look like without the leather seats, with cheaper interior material and cheaper wheel then you pretty got the one those folks have in Africa and Middle East.
Last I checked the LC still drinks regular unlead and the turbo diesel should operate on any diesel that you can find. Last but not least you do know that the LC and LX470 are essentially the SAME TRUCK right?
Click on the long voyage link in post 166. Read about how those people use the LC then get back to me talking about how crappy the current LC is.
They ARE NOT the Same. They have a POC gas engine. They do not have the TORQUE needed when you are doing serious Off-road driving. They require hi octane fuel. When you are in the middle of Mexico it is near impossible to find it. I like the leather and comfort. I want the utility that they gave up. I want the diesel engine they sell the World over. I don't want any plastic body pieces on the exterior of my off-road vehicle. Can the Lexus LX470 measure up. I don't think so.
Here's from the South Africa Toyota website. Toyota offers 2 kinds of diesel engine on the Land Cruiser over there, the GX and VX Turbo diesel. These are the numbers:
Here's what we have here: 310 lb-ft and it works on regular unleaded.
So, here's my answer to this statement "They do not have the TORQUE needed when you are doing serious Off-road driving."
REALLY??? :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
Granted I think Toyota should offer a strip down version of the LC for strictly off-roading use but that doesn't erase the fact that the current LC is a very capable off-roading vehicle. It maybe too expensive for such purpose but that's not the bottom line.
Since you like torque you should like the up coming LX570/LC which packs 381 HP and 401 lb-ft of torque.
That glosses over the best feature of diesel Land Cruiser. It uses about a 3rd to 1/2 less fuel producing that torque. It has a lot longer life span. Something the people that sell vehicles in the USA are not in favor of. As long as ToyLex is happy selling a few hundred foo foo SUVs a year, there are companies offering an alternative.
PS What is the torque on those gas LCs at 2000 RPM?
I bet the newer SUV's need a better winch to get them unstuck. I'm sure all the luxo features of new vehicles put them 1,000 - 1,500 heavier then something comparable 25 years ago.
If you want to wade water, I think you ought to have a snorkel. What happens to those electronics if they get wet? or are they water-proof sealed?
BTW - my girlfriend has a Lexus ES300, and it is decent quality, but rather bland styling wise.
I will have to say that Lexus, at this current time and in the foreseeable future will remain "The Standard Of The World"
The bottom line is Lexus, ranks at the top or near the top in all automobile category's which is why they are the #1 luxury maker in the world from sports cars to SUV's and that fact will be solidified with the introduction of their new near future products.
The bottom line is Lexus, ranks at the top or near the top in all automobile category's which is why they are the #1 luxury maker in the world from sports cars to SUV's
Excuse me? Lexus doesn't build a sports car, period.
"Standard of the World" is just a B.S. moniker, unless it is qualified. Lexus may compete for that label in the area of reliable luxury....
But they aren't even close in driving dynamics and handling, that's virtually unanimously accepted. They are not particularly close, or at least haven't been, in real engineering (not gadget) innovation - choosing, rather to take basic technology and bulletproof it (not a bad thing, mind you). Honda/Acura is certainly ahead of Lexus in applying Formula 1 technology to a street car - the S2000. Or, if you can recall back that far, the 1991 NSX.
One could make lots of claims as to what car or car company represents the "world standard" in certain areas. Porsche's 911 has claim to the "iconic" sports car, Ferrari to the most lusted after sports cars, BMW to the best driving dynamics and handling in the luxury sedan segment, AMG to putting the most ridiculous power to the pavement, Honda to the most relaible entry level cars, etc. etc.
But even if you happen to think coddled interiors and reliable luxury are the absolute holy grail to the exclusion of all other attributes, have the sense of your own limited place in the "world" to call Lexus the "world standard for me". Because it is, frankly, offensive to somebody who actually likes to drive and can park themselves to hear Lexus being touted as some objective "world standard" when they can't even fit a manual transmission into any of their worthwhile so-called sport sedan offerings.
I can give Lexus credit for reliability, and even thank them for shaking up the Europeans to improve their reliability. But so far, I have never gone into a Lexus showroom and had my heart rate go up a single beat. And, in my opinion, when you are spending roughly 2-3-4 times as much for a discretionary purchase as a damn good Honda Accord or Toyota Camry would cost you, a little excitement shouldn't be too much to ask for.
habitat1, i've read a number of your posts. i like the fact that you are focusing on driving dynamics and handling... IMHO it is critically important for a vehicle to be competent in those areas to be considered "standard of the world".
The Japanese prefer BMW and MB to their own Lexus. That should tell US something. Outside the USA Lexus is a Virtual unknown automaker. For you salesmen. What percentage of Lexus are sold outside the USA?
What I don't get about you people who are so obsessed with BMW,is you focus on handling and driving dynamicsofyour cars and that's what is supposably so enjoyable about Bimmers. Well if that is your main reason then why not buy a Lotus Elise, Porsche, Corvette, ya know real powerful handling machines.
I also don't get if it doesn't have a stick, it doesn't qualify as a sports car. :confuse: If a car like the IS F has 400+ hp. and F-1 inspired chrome paddle shifters it's more than just a sports car. :shades:
The bottom line is it will be fun watching the Bimmer boys hold their heads in shame when the IS F, zooms by them. :P
Well I bet I can flick my fingers faster in the IS-F than you can engage that outdated rubberband thing they call a clutch. You need to get with the modern times. Sure a manual is still fun to drive but aren't yousuppose to be a performance driver enthusiast ???? It almost sounds like you want to go first class everything, but aren't you buying second rate technolgy when first rate is available at your local Lexus, dealer ?????
I owned a stick in my former TL, but in the modern era the F-1 paddle shifters is really the way to go. I'd like to think the next CTS-V, might get this slick feature "dual-clutch" style.
The IS-F still has a slushbox automatic with a torque converter which will never be as well connected to the road as a real manual or a DSG type box. I have driven just about every form of automated manual on the planet currently in a production car including DSGs in Audis/VWs, SMGs from BMW in the M3 and M5, Maser's duo select in the Quattroporte and Ferrari's super fast F1 gear box in the F430.
Are they all faster then a regular manual or regular automatic? Sort of the Due select in the Maser is awkward as I drove an early version of it. The newer ones are better but still not that great. Same can be said about the BMW SMGs they are a little faster but awkward and will get confused and hesitate from time to time. A skilled driver in a regular manual BMW could beat a SMG equipped BMW around the track.
The DSG and Superfast boxes are incredibly fast. Much, much faster then any human can shift but they do feel sort of sterile. Sure they are faster but the F430 in particular just feels weird without a traditional open gate 6 speed Ferrari transmission.
Sorry about the personal issues and getting things settled will take some time.
I don't call Lexus the standard in anything but reliability and quality and even then it's questionable.
The horsepower wars are just that. BMW got sand kicked in it's face due to it's unwillingness to keep up with the hp wars. With the 335 and their intention to infuse turbo technology throughout the lineup I don't think BMW is worried. Heck the G37 can't even keep up with the 335. (And to dethrone the 335 magazines have to resort so saying the G37 is the better *track* car.) BMW already has a twin-turbo 4.8 liter, now all they have to do is plunk in turbo power into the M5 and M3.
You think manufacturers are standing still? The same scenario will happen to the IS-F that happened to the 350. Infiniti will come out their M3 killer, which will eclipse the IS-F. Then BMW will refresh the new M3, which will put it light years ahead of the other two. Where is Cadillac? I don't know.
Toyota sells current Lexus models there as Toyotas (LS430 is Toyota Celsior, Lexus SC430 is Toyota Soarer, GS was Toyota Aristo, IS was TOyota Altezza, RX was Toyota Harrier).
They now are looking to indoctrinate redesigned luxury Toyotas into the Lexus family, as they become available. And the LS460, from reports this year, has been very successful.
Toyota's overpowering success actually hurts Lexus in Japan, because of the familiarity with the product.
In 1989, Toyota didn't have the same problems. Overcoming it's own success.
I'd give Lexus in Japan until 2010 to make any judgement on what they're going to be. Either way, Toyota will always be the big piece of pie in Japan, they're just looking to diversify their portfolio. Give them a minute. It'll be alright.
Toyota/Lexus is accelerating growth in China quite nicely. That is a bigger priority. Toyota should have 10-15% of that market, like it has here.
KD, they're one and the same. Toyota has, successfully, make Toyota a full-line automaker that can bridge economy cars, all the way to the LS and Century. They are what Hyundai wants to be in the US, and will fail at.
Now they want to balance their offerings into a luxury marque, and it's going to take time and effort. It's not going to switch overnight.
You can't talk about Lexus in Japan without talking about Toyota in Japan.
The 08 CTS isn't a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord killer. At the same price for all, I'd take either of those two over it.
I'll tell em all just how great the IS F, is going to be. I can explain it with one word. "Flawless"
Chances are the car will have far less flaws than your past predictions. But hardly flawless. No compact sports sedan that comes with a torque converter is going to be taken seriously by enthusiasts. That's just the way is is. I didn't make the rules, but in this case, tend to agree with them.
but in the modern era the F-1 paddle shifters is really the way to go.
"F-1" paddle shifters? Please Rocky, try to understand, those thumb paddles are connected to a torque converter slushbox automatic transmission. The have nothing in common with Formual One technology whatsoever. A Ferrari 430 F1, with it's ultra fast shifting SMG transmission, maybe. But if you are concerned about shift speed, you'd be a lot better off putting duct tape over those paddles so you can't use them and just stomping your foot to the floor. The Lexus automatic will shift at redline without you having to do anything. The paddles are simply put in to look cool and let some Game Boy generation kids play Michael Schumacher. They don't do a damn thing for performance and, in fact, likely diminish it. Plus, when you realize how artificially delayed the downshifts feel, you'll be begging to get your TL 6-speed back.
Finally, for the record, I do give Lexus credit for luxury, reliability, resale value, build quality, interior ergonomics (mostly), etc. But when that is extrapolated to sport, I call a spade a spade. I am equally critical of Acura's failure to move to RWD based platforms for their premium "sport" sedan offerings, like the TL and RL. I do not call my TL 6-speed with a sport tuned suspension and Brembo brakes a "sport sedan". I call it a sporty family sedan. And my ego isn't damaged one bit by being honest.
Well I read a article talking about the "F-1 inspired paddle shifters" in the IS 350, and they said the paddle shifters allowed the IS to shift between gears as fas tas the Ferrari 430 F1.
Raising performance to a whole new level. The IS F.
Designed, tested and refined on the world’s most challenging racetracks, the Lexus IS F is a high-performance sport sedan that will grab the eye, seduce the ear and stir the soul. Its aggressive exterior will accompany impeccable handling, intense speed and unlimited exhilaration. Inside you will find more than 400 horsepower [1], the most powerful gasoline engine we’ve ever made [2]. You’ll hear what’s in store the instant you turn the ignition and bring the IS F to life. Its 5.0-liter direct-injected V8 engine delivers over 350 lb-ft of torque [1], along with a 0-to-60 time below 4.9 seconds [1] [3]. To keep the driver in synch with so much power, the IS F comes equipped with the world’s first eight-speed direct sport-shift transmission with paddle shifters that snaps quickly and crisply between gears, upshifting within a tenth of a second. In addition, a new torque converter lockup control allows the engine’s power to be directly relayed to the transmission in second through eighth gears, accelerating with the responsiveness of a manual transmission. With its advanced shift control, the transmission is capable of incredibly precise throttle “blips” on downshifts to help match the engine rpm to vehicle speed. All the while, a specially tuned suspension delivers impeccable road feel. Drivers will particularly enjoy this while riveted—very comfortably, of course—to front sport seats featuring larger side bolsters. Closer to the ground lie high-performance Brembo brakes specially designed to the specifications of the Lexus engineering team. These massive, cross-drilled front disc brakes with six-piston calipers are more than up to the task of restraining the 19-inch forged aluminum alloy wheels [4] which are manufactured exclusively for Lexus by BBS. Along with a lower profile and wider stance, the rear of the IS F features quad exhaust tips. Their unique staggered, vertical design assures that this pure performance sedan is every bit as intimidating outside as in.
Comments
Don't give Lexus ANY credit for producing a "serious" off road SUV. If anything, whatever credit there is goes to Toyota for producing the Landcruiser and 4-Runner years or decades earlier. All Lexus did was slap a fancier interior and different sheet metal on those "trucks" and bump the price. You want to give Lexus credit? Give them credit for being too cheap to design from the ground up - they made their shareholders a boatload of money on US buyers selling them gussied up Toyota trucks. And, just for the "fair and balanced" record Acura didn't do any better in borrowing a truck from Isuzu and calling it the SLX.
Did that Cayenne went up against the LX and Range Rover or was it pitted against other luxury crossovers?
No crossovers allowed. This included 60 degree vertical rock climbing, side hill traversing, fording streams, mud extraction, etc. It's been at least a couple of years since I read the article, about the time we were considering the GX. The Porsche, with a changeout of high performance street tires and wheels to a set of off-road treads, perfomed unbelievably well (given that I'm sure very few owners have tried).
Lexus' V6 out performs both the turbo-charged or NA BMW I6.
Say what? IS350 vs. 335i? Who are you kidding?
Remember the 5.4 secs was recorded back in 1997 and that's 10 years ago. (The 0-60 time of the GS 400 prompted Lexus to claim that the GS was the world's fastest production sedan.) Show me a BMW 5-series or MB E-class that can do the same back then. That's right, you can't.
Check with Dr. Fill. He has the GS400 at 5.7 and the 540i at 5.5.
But, you raise another point that I need to respond to. Lexus, for all of their positive attributes, is about as lame as a over-testosteroned high school boy when it comes to making performance claims. Consistently, their marketing department will quote 0-60 times that are the very best time anyone has achieved going downhill, downwind, brake starting an automatic. Like that 5.4, "making them the fastest sedan on the planet". By comparison, BMW and Porsche are far more conservative. Porsche officially quotes the 911S at 4.6 seconds. Actual tests by MT, R&T and C&D put it at 4.4, 4.2 and 3.9. BMW is similarly conservative in their official quotes vs. actual road tests (especially with the 335i). But not Lexus. Oh no. If they could find a 0-60 time that involved somebody dropping the car off a building, it would become the "official" time. As though 0-60 is some kind of holy grail.
To your credit, you acknowledge that performance isn't just winning a stop light drag race, but equal parts handling. So look back at that 1997 GS400. I had a good golfing buddy that was one of the very first buyers. Opted for the 17" performance tire package for better handling. In less than 7,000 miles all 4 tires were shot, due to excessive body roll and lousy suspension on the GS. The suspension was clearly not "high performance" and incapable of keeping those tires flat on the ground. And my buddy was NOT an overly aggressive driver. After many consumer complaints, Lexus embrassingly replaced several thousand sets of those tires and rims with the standard (non-performance) tire. Ten years later, the 2007 SC430 still handles like it's got a lot of Buick in it's DNA.
If Lexus put half of the effort into suspension engineering that they do into "park itself" technology and Mark Levinson 20 speaker audio systems, they might gain a little more respect from enthusiasts. But I can accept that that's not how they have made their money and they have little motivation to change now.
P.S. Our weekend with the GX470 included a 15" snowfall in my hometown, which gets 120" annually. It handled it admirably, including some heavily drifted, unpaved roads. I have no issue with the GS's capabilities in that regard.
For shame! :sick:
DrFill
You have to a Low Range Transfer case to compete on the competition. That is the first qualification and there are money more.
2006 COmpetition
Unfortunately the Land Cruiser beat out the Range Rover Sport by about a point. The sport they had seemed kind of doggy though. It recorded a 0-60 time of over 10 seconds when the most I have seen before was around 9 seconds. Also the 60-0 braking was about 15-20 feet longer then most other tests have recorded.
Four wheeler has about the lease friendly site to navigate though so good luck finding the rest of the article.
Here is another page
another page I still think a few are missing.
No crossovers allowed.
So which SUVs are in the comparo? You do know what crossover means right?
Say what? IS350 vs. 335i? Who are you kidding?
I thought we were talking about engines... :confuse:
Consistently, their marketing department will quote 0-60 times that are the very best time anyone has achieved going downhill, downwind, brake starting an automatic.
Do you have proof that the 5.4 times from Lexus was by going downhill, downwind? Before anyone who can prove the number is juiced I'll go with the fastest time. It's just too bad that C&D can't drive the GS400 to its fullest.
As for the performance tires on the GS400, never heard about it, tried to google it, nothing came up. If Lexus indeed replaced "several thousand" sets like you've stated I am pretty sure it wouldn't go un-noticed.
Never defended the SC430 before, it's the ultra trophy wife car.
If Lexus put half of the effort into suspension engineering that they do into "park itself" technology and Mark Levinson 20 speaker audio systems, they might gain a little more respect from enthusiasts.
Enthusiasts will buy 6000 cars from me every year and soccer mom, average Joe will buy 40 times of that...
Hmm, if I am Lexus what should I do?
Remember, this ain't Europe, we fat American like boulevard cruisers and shift-itself, park-itself cars.
Lexus doesn't have a "performance problem", it has an "image" and "prestige factor" problems. Many traditional BMW and MB owners still view Lexus as a second rated luxury car maker from Japan. By producing better performance cars won't help Lexus, only time will.
Oh by the way, can your 1995 Maxima do 0-60 in 5.4 (okay, I'll give you 5.7) seconds?
So who's smoking what?
I think a guy who drives a 911S should be at least man enough to admit his mistake, right?
The 335i tests out faster with an automatic than a stick, the 540i,545i and 550i are neck and neck stick to auto depending upon who's doing the road test.
But, if you're dishing out "shame" send a busload to Lexus engineers for their inability to even offer a manual transmission in anything but their lowest end IS250. And it's a rubbery piece of crap. Guess the engineers are too busy perfecting gadgetry for drivers that don't know how to parallel park to devote any effort to drivers that actually know how to drive a stick?
That should tell you all you need to know about Lexus's priorities.
No crossovers allowed.
So which SUVs are in the comparo? You do know what crossover means right?
From the 2006 Comparison.
As you know, in order to be invited to our annual test, a vehicle has to meet certain criteria, such as, but not limited to, having a two-speed transfer case, meeting the minimum production number of 500 vehicles, being all-new from the ground up or offering a significant change in drivetrain or suspension, and on sale by January 15, 2006. Those making it to this year's party were the Hummer H3, Jeep Commander, Land Rover Ranger Rover Sport, Suzuki Grand Vitara, and Toyota Land Cruiser.
The Cayenne wasn't even in the comparo?
So this is not the comparo habitat was talking about?
I don't doubt Lexus' ability, however I do question its commitment in building performance cars. That's why I'll reserve my judgment for the F-line until the IS-F has been tested out and pitted against competitors by car mags.
If anyone who think the IS250 is a piece of crap he/she should read the Inside Line's review for the 2007 IS250.
The X Package improvements also translate to the track, as our slalom test confirms. Although it's down over 100 hp on the IS 350, the IS 250 is nearly 4 mph faster through the cones with a 70.4-mph result. This is blazing speed, and it puts the IS 250 ahead of the BMW 335i, not to mention about a half dozen very capable sports cars.
I'll bet someone will now tell me that it's the real world performance that counts, not the slalom or skipad, or something like: it just doesn't feel confident enough, the platform is weak, suspension is soft, tires to big, it looks ugly...
Here is the 2004 competition. Cayenne wins
2003 Competiton
I can't find the 2005 or 2002 ones anywhere and the 2007 one just wrapped up so it is not on the web yet.
As matter of fact, GX470 won.
If you go to Africa and Middle East the Land Cruiser they used currently is just a stripped down version of the one you'll find in every Toyota dealer.
The Landcruiser 100TD is the only SUV in the world that manage to go everywhere. The new generation premium Landcruisers has become an electronic evolution. They still use the 4,2 litre turbo diesel from the 80-series but boosted it with electronic engine management system. This 100TD was re-built and modified by LongVoyage incorporating raised air intake, ARB front and rear bumpers with a Warn 4,5 ton winch, recover eyes, extra fuel capacity of 300 litres, reinforced suspension and shockers, new engine management electronics giving approximate 240 diesel horse power and increased torque. 100% diff lock on rear axle and transfer box. A great 4X4 truck for long distance expeditions - but not to be used only for off the road driving. For heavy duty 4X4 driving I recommend the HDJ80, HZJ78 or the HZJ105 trucks. The truck is now-a-days owned by a happy fellow member in SWES.
Source: Long Voyage
1998 Lexus GS 400 V8-3969cc 4.0L DOHC MFI ... NOTE: For Tire Replacement: Please follow special claim coding instructions included in this bulletin. ...
Unfortunately, it's so old, that the link is dead: Tire Replacement
Before anyone who can prove the number is juiced I'll go with the fastest time. It's just too bad that C&D can't drive the GS400 to its fullest.
So you do work for Lexus marketing department? That's the same C&D, by the way that can drive a 911S a heck of a lot quicker than Porsche's official time. Maybe they put a girl in the GS400, since it doesn't come with a stick (just kidding - no offense to "redsoxgirl" or any other female enthusiasts).
Remember, this ain't Europe, we fat American like boulevard cruisers and shift-itself, park-itself cars.
Speak for yourself. I'm more likely to die on a baseball/softball field than in the stands.
Lexus doesn't have a "performance problem", it has an "image" and "prestige factor" problems. Many traditional BMW and MB owners still view Lexus as a second rated luxury car maker from Japan.
Are you kidding me? Lexus, a "prestige" problem? Certainly not in my area among my peers. Among them it simply comes down to "how much do I like to drive?" If you'd really rather be riding than driving, Lexus is number one. If it's the other way around, BMW is. Mercedes is smack in the middle. We are talking at the GS/LS level, not the IS. I actually don't know anyone personally that owns an IS to comment.
Oh by the way, can your 1995 Maxima do 0-60 in 5.4 (okay, I'll give you 5.7) seconds?
Why yes, it can. Downhill, downwind, with a 6,000 rpm clutch drop. Or dropped off a building. But that counts, right?
Seriously, I think I said, the GS barely outaccelerates my 1995 Maxima. The "best" road test time I ever saw for the Maxima SE 5-speed was 6.3, most were 6.6-6.7. That's probably a stretch of the term barely, but I can honestly tell you that when a friend was shopping in 1998 and took me along for back to back to back test drives of the GS430, E430 and 540iA sport, the GS430 felt the slowest of the three. Bad buttmeter that day? Quite possibly. But the 540iA sport felt significantly faster. If you have nothing better to do this weekend, why don't you try out a 550iA against the GS430 and post your opinion.
I think a guy who drives a 911S should be at least man enough to admit his mistake, right?
I'm no more of a man now than when I drove a Spa Yellow 2002 Honda S2000. Which is also to say, don't take any of my side of this car debate too personally. It's all in good fun.
It was an objective commparison using mostly timed tests of how long it took each vehicle to complete a section of an obstacle course. A couple other objective measurements of how steep of a hill climb it could do, depth of water it could go through, etc. They left seat comfort, stereo systems and sexy exterior style out of the rankings.
When I said "we fat American like boulevard cruisers and shift-itself, park-itself cars." I was referring to the general population. You can't argue that people like you are in the minority. Just look at what kind car we have on the street then it's pretty clear.
Why are you comparing GS430 to the 550i? I can use my knee to think and it'll tell me that the GS430 will be much slower. Also I think I'll believe a Lexus tester's stop watch before I take habitat's buttmeter into consideration.
It wasn't peteresens although that one did have the Toureg win which is almost the same as the Cayenne.
I followed your link and turned to page 7, it clearly stated that "The Winner!
Lexus GX 470"
So, I guess that means Cayenne didn't win that particular comparison. Correct?
http://www.fourwheeler.com/roadtests/2004/129_0402_2004_four_wheeler_of_the_year- - /index7.html
Now just to make it clear I don't particularly like either the Cayenne or the GX470 but I would take the Cayenne off-road over the GX470 and I probably have more off-road driven miles, except for maybe gagrice just cause he is old as sin, under my belt then any of you guys. I have even been to more then one off-road driving school and acted as an instructor/spotter at those schools.
The LC is still a capable off-roading truck, just not yours liking anymore. The LC has evolved just like the rest of us and rest of the auto industry. Toyota is out there to keep up with the technologies and the rest of the society not to satisfy a single, or handful customers.
However, I am pretty sure if you are willing to provide ALL the funding then Toyota would be more than glad to bring back the old LC and build one just for you.
I am really wasting my time here...
I was driving my dads jeep off-road on my grand parents farm when I was 11 or 12. You could get a ton of air on those terraced hills. :surprise:
Those LC in post 166 are exactly the same as the Lexus LX470 but without the leather seats and other goodies. As matter of fact, go to your local Toyota dealer, find a LC, imaging what it'll look like without the leather seats, with cheaper interior material and cheaper wheel then you pretty got the one those folks have in Africa and Middle East.
Last I checked the LC still drinks regular unlead and the turbo diesel should operate on any diesel that you can find. Last but not least you do know that the LC and LX470 are essentially the SAME TRUCK right?
Click on the long voyage link in post 166. Read about how those people use the LC then get back to me talking about how crappy the current LC is.
Here's from the South Africa Toyota website. Toyota offers 2 kinds of diesel engine on the Land Cruiser over there, the GX and VX Turbo diesel. These are the numbers:
GX: 285 Nm = 210 lb-ft
VX Turbo diesel: 430 Nm = 317 lb-ft
Here's what we have here: 310 lb-ft and it works on regular unleaded.
So, here's my answer to this statement "They do not have the TORQUE needed when you are doing serious Off-road driving."
REALLY??? :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
Granted I think Toyota should offer a strip down version of the LC for strictly off-roading use but that doesn't erase the fact that the current LC is a very capable off-roading vehicle. It maybe too expensive for such purpose but that's not the bottom line.
Since you like torque you should like the up coming LX570/LC which packs 381 HP and 401 lb-ft of torque.
PS
What is the torque on those gas LCs at 2000 RPM?
If you want to wade water, I think you ought to have a snorkel. What happens to those electronics if they get wet? or are they water-proof sealed?
BTW - my girlfriend has a Lexus ES300, and it is decent quality, but rather bland styling wise.
The bottom line is Lexus, ranks at the top or near the top in all automobile category's which is why they are the #1 luxury maker in the world from sports cars to SUV's and that fact will be solidified with the introduction of their new near future products.
Excuse me? Lexus doesn't build a sports car, period.
"Standard of the World" is just a B.S. moniker, unless it is qualified. Lexus may compete for that label in the area of reliable luxury....
But they aren't even close in driving dynamics and handling, that's virtually unanimously accepted. They are not particularly close, or at least haven't been, in real engineering (not gadget) innovation - choosing, rather to take basic technology and bulletproof it (not a bad thing, mind you). Honda/Acura is certainly ahead of Lexus in applying Formula 1 technology to a street car - the S2000. Or, if you can recall back that far, the 1991 NSX.
One could make lots of claims as to what car or car company represents the "world standard" in certain areas. Porsche's 911 has claim to the "iconic" sports car, Ferrari to the most lusted after sports cars, BMW to the best driving dynamics and handling in the luxury sedan segment, AMG to putting the most ridiculous power to the pavement, Honda to the most relaible entry level cars, etc. etc.
But even if you happen to think coddled interiors and reliable luxury are the absolute holy grail to the exclusion of all other attributes, have the sense of your own limited place in the "world" to call Lexus the "world standard for me". Because it is, frankly, offensive to somebody who actually likes to drive and can park themselves to hear Lexus being touted as some objective "world standard" when they can't even fit a manual transmission into any of their worthwhile so-called sport sedan offerings.
I can give Lexus credit for reliability, and even thank them for shaking up the Europeans to improve their reliability. But so far, I have never gone into a Lexus showroom and had my heart rate go up a single beat. And, in my opinion, when you are spending roughly 2-3-4 times as much for a discretionary purchase as a damn good Honda Accord or Toyota Camry would cost you, a little excitement shouldn't be too much to ask for.
There is no (single) "world standard". Period.
Rocky has seen the light! :surprise:
You must've ssen the LF-A in the flesh.
DrFill
DrFill
BMW and Mercedes and I don't know the other brand.
I also don't get if it doesn't have a stick, it doesn't qualify as a sports car. :confuse: If a car like the
IS F has 400+ hp. and F-1 inspired chrome paddle shifters it's more than just a sports car.
The bottom line is it will be fun watching the Bimmer boys hold their heads in shame when the IS F, zooms by them. :P
-Rocky
P.S. drfill, the LF-A is indeed nice......
I owned a stick in my former TL, but in the modern era the F-1 paddle shifters is really the way to go.
I'd like to think the next CTS-V, might get this slick feature "dual-clutch" style.
The IS-F still has a slushbox automatic with a torque converter which will never be as well connected to the road as a real manual or a DSG type box. I have driven just about every form of automated manual on the planet currently in a production car including DSGs in Audis/VWs, SMGs from BMW in the M3 and M5, Maser's duo select in the Quattroporte and Ferrari's super fast F1 gear box in the F430.
Are they all faster then a regular manual or regular automatic? Sort of the Due select in the Maser is awkward as I drove an early version of it. The newer ones are better but still not that great. Same can be said about the BMW SMGs they are a little faster but awkward and will get confused and hesitate from time to time. A skilled driver in a regular manual BMW could beat a SMG equipped BMW around the track.
The DSG and Superfast boxes are incredibly fast. Much, much faster then any human can shift but they do feel sort of sterile. Sure they are faster but the F430 in particular just feels weird without a traditional open gate 6 speed Ferrari transmission.
I don't call Lexus the standard in anything but reliability and quality and even then it's questionable.
The horsepower wars are just that. BMW got sand kicked in it's face due to it's unwillingness to keep up with the hp wars. With the 335 and their intention to infuse turbo technology throughout the lineup I don't think BMW is worried. Heck the G37 can't even keep up with the 335. (And to dethrone the 335 magazines have to resort so saying the G37 is the better *track* car.) BMW already has a twin-turbo 4.8 liter, now all they have to do is plunk in turbo power into the M5 and M3.
You think manufacturers are standing still? The same scenario will happen to the IS-F that happened to the 350. Infiniti will come out their M3 killer, which will eclipse the IS-F. Then BMW will refresh the new M3, which will put it light years ahead of the other two. Where is Cadillac? I don't know.
This is not what I've heard/read. Maybe someone can back this up with some independent facts. (I'm not going to because it's not worth the effort.)
Correct. But must matter to you.
"The statement "Japanese prefer them over their own Lexus" just is just so much wishful thinking."
News reports generally don't lie or exaggerate.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060215_597701.htm
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/industry/honda-delays-acura-introduction-to-j- apan/
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-8944.html
They have had problems in Europe too.
Toyota sells current Lexus models there as Toyotas (LS430 is Toyota Celsior, Lexus SC430 is Toyota Soarer, GS was Toyota Aristo, IS was TOyota Altezza, RX was Toyota Harrier).
They now are looking to indoctrinate redesigned luxury Toyotas into the Lexus family, as they become available. And the LS460, from reports this year, has been very successful.
Toyota's overpowering success actually hurts Lexus in Japan, because of the familiarity with the product.
In 1989, Toyota didn't have the same problems. Overcoming it's own success.
I'd give Lexus in Japan until 2010 to make any judgement on what they're going to be. Either way, Toyota will always be the big piece of pie in Japan, they're just looking to diversify their portfolio. Give them a minute. It'll be alright.
Toyota/Lexus is accelerating growth in China quite nicely. That is a bigger priority. Toyota should have 10-15% of that market, like it has here.
DrFill
Now they want to balance their offerings into a luxury marque, and it's going to take time and effort. It's not going to switch overnight.
You can't talk about Lexus in Japan without talking about Toyota in Japan.
DrFill
The 08 CTS isn't a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord killer. At the same price for all, I'd take either of those two over it.
I'll tell em all just how great the IS F, is going to be. I can explain it with one word. "Flawless"
Chances are the car will have far less flaws than your past predictions. But hardly flawless. No compact sports sedan that comes with a torque converter is going to be taken seriously by enthusiasts. That's just the way is is. I didn't make the rules, but in this case, tend to agree with them.
but in the modern era the F-1 paddle shifters is really the way to go.
"F-1" paddle shifters? Please Rocky, try to understand, those thumb paddles are connected to a torque converter slushbox automatic transmission. The have nothing in common with Formual One technology whatsoever. A Ferrari 430 F1, with it's ultra fast shifting SMG transmission, maybe. But if you are concerned about shift speed, you'd be a lot better off putting duct tape over those paddles so you can't use them and just stomping your foot to the floor. The Lexus automatic will shift at redline without you having to do anything. The paddles are simply put in to look cool and let some Game Boy generation kids play Michael Schumacher. They don't do a damn thing for performance and, in fact, likely diminish it. Plus, when you realize how artificially delayed the downshifts feel, you'll be begging to get your TL 6-speed back.
Finally, for the record, I do give Lexus credit for luxury, reliability, resale value, build quality, interior ergonomics (mostly), etc. But when that is extrapolated to sport, I call a spade a spade. I am equally critical of Acura's failure to move to RWD based platforms for their premium "sport" sedan offerings, like the TL and RL. I do not call my TL 6-speed with a sport tuned suspension and Brembo brakes a "sport sedan". I call it a sporty family sedan. And my ego isn't damaged one bit by being honest.
DrFill
heheh you gotta say it like Clarkson...
Michael Schooomaakkerr.
:P
Even as famous as Schumacher is I bet the average American doesn't even know who he is.
I will see if I can find that old link.
-Rocky
Designed, tested and refined on the world’s most challenging racetracks, the Lexus IS F is a high-performance sport sedan that will grab the eye, seduce the ear and stir the soul. Its aggressive exterior will accompany impeccable handling, intense speed and unlimited exhilaration. Inside you will find more than 400 horsepower [1], the most powerful gasoline engine we’ve ever made [2]. You’ll hear what’s in store the instant you turn the ignition and bring the IS F to life. Its 5.0-liter direct-injected V8 engine delivers over 350 lb-ft of torque [1], along with a 0-to-60 time below 4.9 seconds [1] [3]. To keep the driver in synch with so much power, the IS F comes equipped with the world’s first eight-speed direct sport-shift transmission with paddle shifters that snaps quickly and crisply between gears, upshifting within a tenth of a second. In addition, a new torque converter lockup control allows the engine’s power to be directly relayed to the transmission in second through eighth gears, accelerating with the responsiveness of a manual transmission. With its advanced shift control, the transmission is capable of incredibly precise throttle “blips” on downshifts to help match the engine rpm to vehicle speed. All the while, a specially tuned suspension delivers impeccable road feel. Drivers will particularly enjoy this while riveted—very comfortably, of course—to front sport seats featuring larger side bolsters. Closer to the ground lie high-performance Brembo brakes specially designed to the specifications of the Lexus engineering team. These massive, cross-drilled front disc brakes with six-piston calipers are more than up to the task of restraining the 19-inch forged aluminum alloy wheels [4] which are manufactured exclusively for Lexus by BBS. Along with a lower profile and wider stance, the rear of the IS F features quad exhaust tips. Their unique staggered, vertical design assures that this pure performance sedan is every bit as intimidating outside as in.
http://www.lexus.com/fcv/is_f.html
-This is not the article I was looking for but it does mention the tenth of a second upshift to the next gear something no manual driver can do.
-Rocky
I can get the same performance out of a manual.
And have fun doin' it.
DrFill