Ford 3.8 head gasket, AXOD transmission failures Windstar Taurus Sable - Ford secret warranty?

brightbegin

I am yet another Windstar owner with transmission problems!! I purchase my 95' Windstar from a used car dealer 1 year ago with 73K for a "great price" and for the past 9 months have been unable to go in reverse. I do not have money for repairs (not that it would help, as it seems they will keep going bad). So, I drive around parking lots looking for parking spots that I can pull through and still be able to drive away. When the van doesn't want to go forward, I put it in 2nd gear and after it starts going, I put it back in drive. CRAZY, HUH??? I've yet to have any noticable engine problems, but........... I've only put around 8K miles on it since I bought it, and in around 3 months, I'll have money to trade it in and get rid of it. Does anyone know if Ford is going to do anything about the transmission problems, like they have with the head gasket failures?? Thanks and God Bless!!

brightbegin

I am yet another Windstar owner with transmission problems!! I purchase my 95' Windstar from a used car dealer 1 year ago with 73K for a "great price" and for the past 9 months have been unable to go in reverse. I do not have money for repairs (not that it would help, as it seems they will keep going bad). So, I drive around parking lots looking for parking spots that I can pull through and still be able to drive away. When the van doesn't want to go forward, I put it in 2nd gear and after it starts going, I put it back in drive. CRAZY, HUH??? I've yet to have any noticable engine problems, but........... I've only put around 8K miles on it since I bought it, and in around 3 months, I'll have money to trade it in and get rid of it. Does anyone know if Ford is going to do anything about the transmission problems, like they have with the head gasket failures?? Thanks and God Bless!!

rx2gen

so far we have had two headgaskets replaced for free and now we are paying to repair the tranny since we owe more than the van is worth. we are racking our heads on how to make a deal on a honda van. ford does not exist anymore in our minds.

normanc1

I need to ask for help from my fellow consumers. I own a 1990 Taurus LX with the dreaded 3.8L. At 79,720 mi the head gasket blew and the engine died, but my real treat came when I tried to restart the car to move it out of traffic. The engine hydraulically seized, which finished the job and destroyed the engine. This happened just over 2 year ago and cost the sum of $2900.00 to have the engine completely rebuilt. I won't go into the electrical fire and AC problems right now. Do I have any recourse with Ford? And if I do, how would I go about getting started.

danielj3

To those interested see my latest experiences with
Ford and one dealer in Smart Shopper #2031.

fordprob95

Hi Everyone?

I just got my van back 6/24. I have pervious posts that will explain. It broke down on 4/27 and they finished it on 6/23. It took that long for a new engine to arrive. CS rep is telling me that they (FORD) are advising that it will be even longer for folks that are just now requesting a new engine. Anyway, I was in a rental car for the first 5 days and then borrowed my family's cars for about 1 1/2 weeks then my CS rep from Ford dealer called and told my they would put me in rental car, 5 weeks later today as a matter of fact I turn in that rental car. I know the only reason I got such a good deal is because I knew the CS rep sister... she's my neighbor.
I to like other people in the post kept my van cause I owe more than it is worth. So far I have had no Transmission problem (I'm keeping my fingers crossed).

TO IF WE HAD ONLY KNOWN:
Fight it!! Go to small claims! The Sqeaky wheel gets the grease!
Call the 1-800#. And just a little note from my CS Rep...Be Pleasent to them and they can really help you otherwise be unpleasent and they can really screw with you!!

gkarg

I just happened to acquire a 'lovely' 92 continental with a 3.8. yes, yes, I know... I'm asking for trouble. I've already found it!!! The car was basically given to me BECAUSE the motor was blown. I don't know that particular motor's history and I don't care, because I've purchased a Jasper Remanufactured 3.8. (NO, I don't work for Jasper, or have anything to gain by writing this - except the satisfaction that maybe someone saved money and didn't blow it at the Frod, excuse me, Ford Garage.)

Anywho, my point is that this engine lists for $2350 on their website. It has a 3 year/75,000 mile warranty. A ford mechanic is putting the engine in at his home garage and I'll be helping him do it. If you can find a reputable garage. i believe Jasper has engine Installer locators, you can possibly avoid the Ford Dealership and wind up with a longer warranty! Jasper's site is http://www.jasperengines.com

From what my mechanic was saying. The Ford remanufactured engine rebuilders are using the wrong head gaskets and the rebuilds are blowing way to soon, but usually right after the 12 month 12,000 mile warranty expires. The Jasper rebuilds are using the original type gasket and they are least lasting the warranty period (75,000 miles,) if not....they pay!

Now, I realize that with this Continental that I'll probably have expenses like the Transmission and air ride components which are quite expensive, but so far... I'm ahead with this deal.

2akitas

We would like to hear from you if you had problems with your Windstar shifting rough. We bought ours in Feb 00 and it has just started. We had it into a couple of tranny shops but they got no codes on the scan.
Would like to hear about your experience and any resolutions. Thanks, C & J Newman Alberta Canada

ben48

My 1994 Sable has started playing up. The transmission on the car with 79,000 miles has started to "jolt" forward. This only happens when the engine has heated up, after about 40 miles of driving in the afternoon. It does not happen in the mornings before the engine warms up.
The transmission shop says I need new transmission, which will cost upwards of $2,000.00 and then he says, something else will go, so he advised that I buy a new car.
Has anyone else had these problems, where when the tranny is hot, it jolts forward? what's the best way to go.

gkarg

Have either of you ever had the tranny fluid and filter changed? My Dad's 93 Taurus was starting to shudder a little, so we had the fluid/filter changed and it went away. Don't know if this would help rough shifting, but it might!?!

2akitas

Yes our was done . That was the first thing that was done. We know it is not something normal. It happens more when the van is warm. Either from driving awhile or on hotter days. AC also affects it.It is the up and down shifting, going from a stop and slowing down.It feels like it can't find a gear then clunks in. Hope this clarifies the problem.

Volare

My parents 98 windstar which just recently had transmission problems. They fixed it under warrenty but we are woundering if we should get the extended warrenty? Did anybody have head gasket problems on their 98 with the 3.8? thanks

tammy62

Like many of you out there, owning our 95 Windstar has been a nightmare. Yes, we've had the transmission problems, although not as bad as it looks like it can be, and the problems with the head gaskets. One headgasket was replaced in June or July, 99. Then, an injector had to be replaced from where the anti-freeze had messed it up. This was all at 59,000. Then we got the letter about extending the warranty to 100,000, but we thought (naively, I now know) that we wouldn't need to worry since we had already, been there done that. A couple of months ago, the check engine light came on and we had to replace the oxygen sensor. Then this week we were about 500 miles from home, and the check engine light came on again, and the van started lurching. We made it to our destination, and took it to a Ford Dealer and sure enough, it was the head gaskets again. They were great, and did have it ready in 48 hours (we had to get back home and to work to finish paying for the van!) Any way, my question is, since both of these have been covered under the recall, and we haven't had to pay for the repairs, except the oxygen sensor which we didn't know was related at the time, does anyone know if we might be eligible for the 4k rebate, or any part of? We are to drive to Florida from Maryland in August, and I don't trust the van at all. Thank you for your help.

pjyoung

If they paid for the headgasket job, you don't qualify for the $4,000. Buy a Toyota.

ethans

I keep reading all these horror stories, and for anyone out there who's now scared to death of a Ford let me tell you a story:

In 1996 we bought a 93 Merc. Sable with a 3.8 with 54k miles... it now has 110k miles and is running great, ZERO problems with the head gasket (we had the coolant flushed at 60k, but otherwise the car has not had a tune-up, or any other maintenance)... tranny shifts wonderful, engine has a ton of power and can easily out run most cars... The only major expense was $500 for a full brake job (rotors, drums, etc... we let it go way too long)

In 1997 we bought a 90 Town Car with 95k... carfax.com reported that at 17k miles the car had been repurchased by Ford as a lemon... we thought we were done for... it now has 132k trouble free miles... it needed a $75 alternator, and $200 worth of brake work over the past 37k miles...

Four months ago we bought a 98 Town Car with 35k miles, it now has 41k, and we're keeping our fingers crossed, but except for oil changes it's never seen a mechanic.

A close friend of mine bought a 1995 Taurus SE with a 3.0 in 1996 with 20k miles, he's now at 105k trouble free miles.

Same friend bought a 98 Taurus SE with a 3.0 in 1999 with 21k miles, it's now at 57k teenager miles (that's like 220k in normal-people miles), it's been in the shop for brakes and oil changes.

Are we lucky? Maybe... but we're searching for a 98/99 Taurus or a 98/99 Windstar to replace the aging 90 Town Car. I feel for the people who've been burned, but I think in general that Ford vehicles are good vehicles and when I bring my car to my local dealership (Blue Hill Lincoln Mercury) I know that I'm going to pay more then an ind. mechanic, but it's going to be done right the first time.

Thanks for listening.

-Ethan

ethans

Right, well I am lucky with the Sable, but it wasn't just the 3.8-specific problems I was refering to... many people here have been bitching about bad FWD tranny's in Ford.

pjyoung

That is true, and unfortuantely, my 95 Windstar had one of those bad trannies too. It also had the bad head gaskets. So, I've had a T-bird, a Windstar and a Taurus. Two out of those three have had a bad head gasket. One has a bad tranny.

tammy62

We took your advice and signed the buyer's order for a Toyota Sienna on Monday. We have it as a loaner until we get the check from out credit union. We were afraid to wait after reading all of the transmission nightmares. We were afraid that it was just a matter of time before it would go too.
Ford customer assistance (can you really call it this?) refused to offer any incentive since Ford had paid for the head gasket fix.

moetrn

I have a 96 windstar and seem to be having electrical problems. Anyone else got this? Our door open alarm always goes off and now our interior lights won't go out. The driver side front tire is always getting flat and a piece to our "new" brakes keep malfunctioning and squeaking loudly on the same tire! as far as transmission we had that fully replaced 2 weeks after buying it. Now when i switch gears the car makes a loud bang and switches roughly. Am i in for more than I bargained for? Is this only the beginning of my problems? can anyone give me some thoughts? thanks

pjyoung

Yes, our 95 Windstar did the same thing (interior lights stay on and door ajar alarm keeps ringing. There is a buildup of dirt on the latch mechanism. Spray some WD40 on the latch (inside the drivers door) and that will fix that problem. Ours always did it, but it would behave itself when at the dealership. One visit to the dealer (to investigate a leak, naturally) it acted up as we were leaving. Got the service manager out there pronto. He showed me the fix.

2akitas

We have a 95 and our trans is acting up. Rough shift and clunks into gear. We had it in the shop for 4 days. It acts up more when warm, The tech says he thinks it's elecrical.
Anyone else???????

HCLEMO

To #398: my guess is that your transmission shift piston is going and you will need a new one. More than likely, the various clutches are bad also or are ready to go. I had my shift piston replaced under warranty at 38K (about a $2K repair) when my 95 WS would not engage when starting from a stopped position. About 2 months ago (60K on the odo), reverse would not engage. They pulled the transmission ($400 just to do this) and told me that the clutches were all about ready to fail and recommended a factory rebuilt transmission ($2700 and a rebate on the $400 to pull the transmission). I had the rebuilt transmission put in and am now getting the thing cleaned up ready to ship off to Car Max or who ever will buy this thing. The Ford dealer has told me I qualify for the $4K trade-in since I have had 2 head gaskets put in (I had to pay an $100 deductible on the second one under warranty).

I am not sure whether to use the $4K trade in certificate for another Ford product or just bag it and go for a Toyota or Honda (I am not very fond of these dealers since they all seem to want to pick your wallet). Ford seems to be doing it to me now that my extended warranty has run out on my 95 WS.

2akitas

To 399 ,,,,,Does this give computer codes when tested? Ours gives no codes. how do you know for sure?

jimbo56

I'm looking at buying a 1996 Windstar with the 3.8L engine. It has 52,000 miles (1 owner w/ good maintenance records). Selling price is $10,000

Did Ford correct the head gasket problems with the 96 or should I just stay away from this van?

2akitas

I'd be very careful if I were you. When we were looking at Windstars, we came across a 96 on a sales lot that had anti-freeze in the oil.The 96's are supposed to be less problem but it is still a risk.

pjyoung

The NHTSA site shows about 45 head gasket complaints on 96 Windstars. I'd be a little wary of the Transmission as well - 1996 shows 85 transmission related complaints. That's better than 1995, which had over 500 complaints. Bottom line, be careful.

HCLEMO

I am not sure about computer codes. My first transmission problem was manifest by prolonged delays to engage first gear and then clunky shifting from 1st to 2nd gear. The problem on this landed up being the shift piston. The second problem arose when all of a sudden, reverse would not engage (despite having the shift lever in R). The clutch mechanism which controlled reverse was gone, per the transmission mechanic. He had to pull the transmission to determine this--at that time, he noted that the other clutches were really banged up. The vehicle actually was shifting relatively well in the forward gears. I assume it makes sense to check for codes since this transmission has an electronic module.

As an aside, 3K to the reverse going, I had the transmission serviced (fluid changed). I was told that everything looked great.

bblaha

The rumor is that the HG problem was fixed midyear 1996. So some of the 96s probably are still problematic.

scrapmo

We had/have a '95 Windstar LX that we purchased in Sept '94. We were quite pleased with the van for the first 3 years (warranty period). After that we had the following problems:

-Power steering pump failed (twice)
-Had to have ignition switch replaced
-Brakes were weak and didn't seem to work correctly (Ford never figured that one out)
-Transmission shifted VERY hard later in the vans life (about 80,000 miles)
-Took it in for the HG recall and about 2000 miles later the HG failed
-Had HG replaced and about 3000 miles later the engine blew (threw a rod)

I am now one of the lucky ones that Ford is paying $8300 for the van (LX loaded model) that couldn't get over $5000 trade in anywhere else. I seriously thought about taking the $3000 extra offer for another Ford until reading everything on this and the Explorer sight. I am giving up a $3000 credit toward a new Ford and going to Honda (which I've owned 5 others and NEVER had a problem).

I suggest that if anyone is seriously thinking of a Ford of any type they reconsider. This company makes good looking automobiles with nothing but problems underneath.

Good Luck!

spc1

I'm in the US living here for 2 years. I bought a 98 Winstar 3.8 GL a few weeks ago. We run 6 of these vehicles at work they seem quite reliable. However since reading this page I'm concerned that I might have made a bad move in buying one myself. I'm at 37k miles, the only thing I've noticed is a very slight 'hunting' in the transmission when running under light load conditions at 30-50 mph. Under load it seems OK.
I'm obviously very concerned at all I see written in this column about transmissions and cylinder heads. What checks can I make? What protections do I have if any? If I have problems am I best dealing with a Ford dealer? Any help or advise most welcome

pjyoung

You can look at http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/complain/compmmy1.cfm for consumer complaints. Under make, be sure to specify "Ford Truck". A quick check shows 82 complaints for transmissions for 98 Widnstars, only 1 head gasket complaint. The "hunting" is most likely your overdrive - between 40 and 50, under any kind of load it will tend to "hunt" for the right gear. I wouldn't say that it's a problem for you, and you should be able to avoid it by turning off overdrive by pressing the button on the gearshift.

At any rate, the NHTSA site should be a good source for finding the most common complaints about a vehicle. IMHO, I'd stick with a Ford dealer...if you have a problem and it comes down to any kind of arbitration or small claims suit, it's best to have receipts for work done and any preventative steps you take from an authorized Ford dealer.

dorothyb

I just found this site. I own a 93 Ford Taurus 3.8L - I had to replace head gasket earlier this year. Am I eligible for refund from Ford, and if so how do I go about it? This is my 3rd Taurus, and I did look at the 2000's today, but am shy to buy considering my past experiences.

Thanks for any feedback.

illinois

To #361 and #362, jstamp and rshipley,

Whatever happened to your troubles?

My 95 Windstar has exactly the same symptoms:
- OK when cold (so far)
- Trouble starts when the engine is hot
- Trouble is that starting from a dead stop on level ground, the engine revs up to 2000 - 2500 rpm and then pops into gear. Feels like being rearended.
- OK when traveling down the road
- also OK if stopped on a hill

Thanks,
Ed

windstar95

My transmission is acting "funny". I tried to tell the dealer when it was new that the tranny wasn't right, but they assured me it was. What can I do now? HELP!!!!

2akitas

Welcome to the club! Check out some earlier postings. There are some great links.
Also check in conferences in vans under Ford windstar problems 11 and Ford windstar 11. Good luck !

katdas

I can't believe what I've been reading! I've been suffering in Ford hell all these years silently. The web is a wonderful thing!

We first bought a '92 Taurus wagon (3.8L) in Aug. '96. My wife loved it (leather seats, sun roof, loaded) and she talked me into buying it from a newspaper ad, even though our research suggested it would be a lemon. We got a pretty good deal (or so we thought) when the guy dropped his asking price by almost $2000 when we realized we had mutual friends. We had a mechanic check it out, who said other than the high miles, it was O.K. We bought the car and it was fine for a couple of months. On Christmas morning, at my sister's house in Minnesota, with a temp of -27, it was the only car that would start. I took my altar-boy nephews to mass, picked up my parents at their hotel, and drove everyone else to Mass, and it never heated up. Took it in the next day, and you guessed it -- blown thermostat, which was caused by a leaky head gasket. That car was nothing but trouble from then on; belts, hoses, valves, covers, motor mounts, just about everything but the tranny went. $3500 later (more than half the cost of the car)... we unloaded it, trading it in for a '95 Windstar van (3.8L) with 33K miles.

We again had it checked out by mechanics, and everything was fine. About a month after owning it, on a trip to the in-laws in a small town, we started smelling burning anti-freeze. The local mechanic checked it out; nothing. We serviced it by the book for more than two years; no problems. We still could smell coolant now and then, but no one could find any leaks and we never lost much coolant. Finally, in late fall of '99, the heat didn't work. Our neighborhood mechanic found the head gasket problem. We called the Ford dealership, they quoted us $1800 to fix it, so we stayed with our mechanic for $1400. 3 or 4 months later, Ford sends us the recall letter, We take it into the dealership, and after much arguing with them and customer service in Detroit, Ford covers about $1150 of the repairs. The day after they send the check (in April), they send me a letter saying I'm eligible for a $4000 credit towards a new Ford (if I don't cash the check). I was tempted, had a new 2000 Windstar picked out and was ready to sign, when the Ford salesman blew me off for another customer. By making me wait over an hour before finishing the deal, he gave me too much time to think... and I backed out.

I still have the Windstar and now the transmission is starting to slip just like others here have described. I really do like this van; it's great to drive, but the problems are mounting and Ford and it's employees don't seem to care. I hope to dump this piece of crap this weekend. I'll buy either the Toyota Sienna or Honda Odyssey (if I can afford them) and I will never buy a Ford again.

2akitas

Just got our van back yet again. This time we figured it was an elecrical short. We don't take it to Ford anymore. We use a private shop. He took a look at all wiring and found our battery was not up to snuff and our alternator was weak. He put in a new, heavy duty battery and we drove it around awhile. Guess what ???? Transmission is shifting smoother!
He says the computers in these things needs strong constant power to function.When power is weak things start to act up. We'll change the alternator soon too.
Will keep you posted. Let you know if it is still OK or if we have more woes. Thanks everyone !
C & J Newman ,Edmonton

njsmdad1

Has anyone had experience with the $3k certificate
for a delayed new engine plus a buyout? I have a 94 Taurus with the 3.8, 87k miles, blown headgasket and motor. Ford customer care(?) told me that after 5 business days waiting on an engine, I could elect a $3k certificate AND a NADA avg book value buyout...but I had to work through the dealer.

The dealer is woefully uninformed, or so they appear. Today I filled out a certificate request form and the dealer said it takes about 72 hours to get the certificate. Any experiences with that? How about the NADA valuation? The dealer seemed not to know how that would go down. Even mentioned that they "don't want the car." No kidding...me neither.

I'd appreciate anyone's knowledge who suffered a head gasket AND engine failure after the 3/00 warranty extension. Thanks.

By the way, my other vehicle is a 95 Windstar. Poor me!!

bdemas

njsmdad1: I didn't have the $3k certificate situation, but I did have the $4k certificate due to prior repairs on my 95 Windstar. Once the paper work was filled out it took about 3 or 4 days to get the certificate. If you have had to pay for any headgasket repair on the windstar you can get another certificate. No problems using the certificate towards a new vehicle either, we shopped all the dealers in the area before buying.

ilovefarming

You can't afford NOT to get out of the Windstar. What price shall you pay for peace of mind? It is worth every penny. Go get yourself into a Sienna or an Ody as soon as you can. You shall thank your lucky stars.

copland22

SO FAR I'VE REPLACED THE TRANSMISSION ON MY 96 WINDSTAR W/ ONLY 30,000 MILES ON IT. LUCKILY THE WARRANTY COVERED IT. HOWEVER, I'M CONCERNED WHETHER MY '96 W/ THE 3.8L WILL SUFFER FROM THE HEAD GASKET PROBLEM I'VE BEEN READING ABOUT. I SEE INFO ON THE 95s, BUT HOW ABOUT THE 96 WINDSTARS? ANY INFO OUT THERE?

bblaha

Thats the dilemma many of us (those with relatively new Fords) are in. The rumor has always been that Ford essentially "fixed" the head gasket problem on its 3.8L engine sometime during the 96 model year. So the early 96s may be problematic.

fclspat

Wow!

Blew a head gasket on my wife '92 Cougar. She bought the car new in early 93 (a left over) and it has 98,000 trouble free miles. Before deciding what to do (repair or junk ir) I decided to poke around the web.... boy am I shock at the stories re: blown HGs on the 3.8!

I read that ford extended the warranty on 94's to 7yr/100mi. I was wondering if anyone has had any luck getting remuneration on a '93 or older car.

I'm not willing to spend $1-4k fixing it... so it'll go to the trash heap if Ford doesn't pony up (and a $4K rebate would be great!).

I'm sure glad we just got our '00 GMC Yukon as we'd have been screwed if the Mercury broke down while we were waiting for our new truck to arrive!

pjyoung

That's when my small claims case is being heard. SUPPOSEDLY, 93's are being looked at on a case by case basis. My 93 T-bird blew a head gasket at 75,000 miles in August of last year. Three letters to Ford resulted in 3 denials I had read at lemonaidcars.com that the Ford was supposedly going to cover 93's sometime later this year. Their response to me was an unsigned letter saying, in essence, go to he**. There is a class action lawsuit being filed by an Ohio law firm (Murray & Murray). I've got the paperwork at home and I can post an e-mail address for you.

bomelia

I've got a 97 Windstar with 108,000 miles on it. When I go thru a long sweeping curve or while sitting with the wheels turned the steering wheel oscillates. The local garage said to let it go until I have to replace the rack and pinion system. Ok but driving in the mountains is very exciting now. I had a 93 Taurus before the Windstar and it did the same thing.

ricky12

About 2 months ago I paid the Ford dealer to replace the O2 and mass airflow sensors on my 96 3.8L Windstar. Now I am getting another light @ 71K miles. The dealer wants another $80 to tell me what the light is for. Also, the coolant level has been slowly diminishing. I asked the dealer about the HG recall only to learn my WS was not affected. They claimed Ford fixed the problem mid 96MY and for $50 they could diagnose the loss of antifreeze. My mfg. date is 09-95. Can anyone comment on these two issues? Is my WS covered by the HG recall? What could cause the light. Why do I always feel I am getting ripped off by the dealer?

2akitas

You feel that way because you are being ripped off!
Ford was to have fixed the HG problem mid 96 but I know others who have had it happen on newer Windstars.
We no longer use Ford , we now go to private mechanics. Find one who is recommended by friends.
They not only charge you less, they often go out of their way to help.
Good luck and keep posting so we know how you are making out.

ihateford2

I cannot believe how much company we are keeping and we didn't even know it. Our 95 Ford Windstar has been a nightmare since the day we bought it. The first year we owned it, it was in the shop for various repairs for over 60 days! We had the head gasket replaced in December, @51,000 miles. We now have 56,000 miles on it and the transmission is failing. YIPPEE! We're out looking for a new vehicle. We can't rely on the van or the "wonderful" service we have had. We have tried 3 different Ford dealerships and they all have the same level of customer service, none.
We were wondering if #411 has had any luck in finding out what exactly is causing the problems you have been having. They sound exactly like the problems we are currently experiencing. We figure we'll have to drive and park it close to dealership the night before we trade it in so that the transmission will be cold and it wont slip in the test drive. Does anyone know if the warranties have been extended on transmissions or are we just totally out of luck. Thanks )

tls1021

Does anyone know if you can still get the 4K certificate for the head gasket problem if the head gaskets have been replaced and covered under warranty? I still have so many problems with my 95 Windstar that I need to unload it, but I can't get enough money for it to afford a new one!!

pjyoung

It's my understanding it's an either/or deal...either they fix the gaskets OR they give you the certificate. You might check with your dealer or Ford Customer Service (oxymoron alert!)