Local ad (don't know if it is aired elsewhere): "Only a Honda is a Honda"
Unless it is an Acura :shades:
And for some cars, sometimes a Honda is an Isuzu. In England, there was a Triumph that was a Honda. And we had a Saturn with a Honda heart. And so on...
If we can make Subaru drivers feel as invincible as SUV drivers, the population of cars in the ditch after the first local snow will become more diverse :shades:
The best slogan related to that Honda one was used by MB in the UK some time ago: "A used Mercedes is still a Mercedes".
The XV has really good ground clearance. Trucks that are out there leave tracks behind, so any car with the same or more clearance is usually fine. Any less and you high center.
The XV would easily get around unless it's virgin snow and the driver didn't know what they were going.
Remember Subarus weigh almost nothing. My Forester was excellent on the beach, even on soft sand. Drove right by a heavy dually that forgot to air down his tires.
They're more capable than you think, though driver skill is of course the biggest factor.
I never said they weren't capable cars, like you say, it is mostly about the driver.
I've taken the fintail and E55 out in snow. The old car is light, but gets a little iffy with old tires. I drove the modern car to work after a big snow in 2008, low profile tires and all. Had no issues at all until I reached a hill after a sharp turn near the parking garage at work. Had to slow down enough to kill momentum, and got stuck. But, I got some cat litter, got a push, and I was able to get out of it.
Most areas in the neighborhood had 8-10". I drove a day later. It was a mess, but the car did well - maybe good weight distribution, and the "winter mode" along with traction control helps.
I don't need slick roads to drift that car :shades:
Me too, that's why I don't touch the Miata no matter what.
Plus it scrapes bottom with a dusting of snow.
I did attend a M-B event that had an AWD demo drive. They had a wet tarp and let you go out in a diesel RWD, then an E350 4Matic.
The diesel exaggerated the traction problem because after a little lag the power comes on strong, and breaks traction easily. The result was jerky, like the car had hiccups, traction control cutting in.
The AWD model was a smoother V6, back then pre-DI with less than 270hp, but linear power delivery. No problem on the slick tarp.
I recall seeing a commercial for the 1994 Cadillac DeVille showing the car plowing through deep snow effortlessly. That commercial was no lie! I later bought a new 1994 Cadillac DeVille and that car really was capable in the snow!
Compared to RWD cars, FWD cars were amazing in snow, which is probably the reason FWD was touted as something superior in the 80s. My dad had a Horizon he also loved as a snow car. I suspect a modern AWD car could walk all over it, though.
I suspect the modern turbo engines are also very linear and easy to drive to supercar speeds. Those engineers know what they are doing. People who aren't used to the driving experience just need to adjust to the heavy throttle.
Torque can solve a lot of problems - for instance, why drivers of emasculated huge 70s V8s with puny hp outputs still felt fine behind the wheel - they moved along effortlessly.
Well, they are better tuned, but you still hit the throttle and wait, wait, and then get more than you wanted. Maybe you just have to train yourself to be more patient. I just don't want to.
The Miata is ultra responsive. I can control speeds in tiny increments, even "brake" by reducing throttle position. Makes it very easy to position the car exactly where you want it.
Of course the next Miata may be a small displacement turbo, what's the rumor? 1.4T maybe?
I've taken the fintail and E55 out in snow. The old car is light, but gets a little iffy with old tires. I drove the modern car to work after a big snow in 2008, low profile tires and all. Had no issues at all until I reached a hill after a sharp turn near the parking garage at work. Had to slow down enough to kill momentum, and got stuck. But, I got some cat litter, got a push, and I was able to get out of it.
Hills are the downfall of RWD in snow, especially if not equipped with winter/snow tires.
Last winter a friend came over to our house after a 2 inch snowfall and we had not cleared it yet and it was not a "wet" snow. He has a recent 3 series coupe with all-seasons on it. He struggled up our uphill winding paved driveway many times sliding off. He was persistent, kept backing up trying over and over, finally got to the top.
On the other hand, we have no problem getting up our driveway in winter with our front drivers and snow tires mounted. Of course do not even try going up the driveway if fresh snowfall is higher than our vehicles' ground clearance.
My normally aspirated car isn't like that. It just requires more pressure than a normal car. But the response is like any other high torque engine - the more you press, the more you get. There's no point like in a VTEC car where it explodes after a certain RPM, or like a low tech V6 where it runs out of breath after 4500. It just keeps going and going - 100-120-140 and so on. It is easy to drive smooth or hard, as there is no magical take up point where things change.
Few people out here even own snow tires. I learned my lesson. Unless conditions look pretty ideal, I will just stay home. They don't pay me enough for the risk and frustration :shades:
Compared to RWD cars, FWD cars were amazing in snow, which is probably the reason FWD was touted as something superior in the 80s.
Agreed. And still today in 2012.
Our State allowed studded snows for a handful of years. Put them on our RWD cars at 4 corners and the traction and handling in snow and ice was amazing compared to just plain snows. Of course, the studs ripped up the pavement and the State then banned use of these.
Downside to studded snows was on dry pavement at speed on interstate. Handling and feel was compromised quite a bit and with sustained speed, studs tended to fly out after some thousands of miles on the tires.
Ultimate setup, if still allowed in any State, would be studded snows at 4 corners on an AWD such as Subaru or Audi.
Few people out here even own snow tires. I learned my lesson. Unless conditions look pretty ideal, I will just stay home.
Think that is true here in northern Illinois.
If one can work from home on snowy days, then can get along with just all-season tires. Highway depts here are pretty good at scraping down and plowing roads soon after any snow.
But, we prefer to always be prepared, Have 3 vehicles, each with its own set of snow tires mounted to dedicated rims (Tire Rack).
Can still do that in Alaska. But the studs mostly paid off in the city starting from a standing start at the black ice intersections. Helped with stopping at red lights too, but I remember sliding out into a few of them even so.
In those, meaning my car? It is insanely easy to drive in a mellow fashion, especially for such a powerful car. But I have driven it for so long now, I know all the shift points by memory, and how to maxinmize smoothness. Some cars aren't built for it, via design or driver.
Where in an old V6 GM car, I remember the smallest touch of throttle would shoot it off the line, where in a VTEC Civic it is like some motorcycles - you have to wring it a bit to get moving, and when you hit a certain point, it takes off like a normal car.
Road works departments here aren't so great when it snows - as it doesn't snow much, the infrastructure isn't there. I don't want to daily drive an SUV or switch tires, so I am happy with what I do. On snow days, my office is usually barren, as it should be. Overpaid "leadership" will always call in, so should everyone else.
In the late 80s I used to valet park for beer money. Those GM V6s would *jump* off the line, then wheeze and run out of breath. Totally on/off throttle control. Terrible.
Most MB had the feature of selectable 2nd gear start, which can make things even smoother. I seldom use it in my car, only in snow. I had it out on the highway today too - cruises like a dream, yet had enough reserve power on tap to stroll to the 155mph governor without breathing hard. And I averaged 25.1mpg.
My grandma had an Olds like that. I remember the first time I drove it, I shot forward (I was inexperienced, and used to driving a fussy carb'd 66 Ford which also had a heavy throttle). I can't see how a little old lady drove it smoothly.
The only time I didn't make it to work due to snow, it was because I was too tired after 4 hours of snow removal, to make a lane to get out of the driveway. It was another 2+ hours to clear enough snow for my '02 Explorer to get out. Last February, we went Indiana to visit one of the kids at school. Took the then less than a year old Explorer, which I had never driven in snow. Hit the snow about 20 miles from home and couldn't see anything for about 45 minutes. Completely forgot it has 'snow mode' and despite all season tires, never slipped up other than almost going off the road a couple of times. Good think for those rumble strips they build into the side of the highway. Little did we know we were leaving 11 days without power behind us.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
My wife had a Cutlass with the touchy throttle, she has a V6 Outlander now that isn't much better. Even in the rain, we switch it to 4WD to keep from spinning the tires off the line. We get some good snowstorms here in Wisconsin, I've always had a rear-drive car (T-Bird, Lincoln LS, now a 2012 Mustang,) if the weathers bad, one of us will call in and the other will take the 4WD.
2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
Few people out here even own snow tires. I learned my lesson. Unless conditions look pretty ideal, I will just stay home.
According to article titled, Sacre' Pneu, in the latest edition of Car and Driver, all passenger vehicles registered in Quebec must wear winter tires between Dec 15 and Mar 15. eh?
Same Car and Driver declares that new Cadillac ATS is the best handling sports sedan on the market today. Probably will see lots of BMWs on the Cadillac used car lots next Spring. Will be seeing more and more Cadillacs parked in driveways of mc mansions and mansions.
Yeah, I don't miss them and finally quit using them when I lived up north. I put Nokians on the Subaru last winter and they seem to be good "all weather" tires (studs are illegal here anyway).
Formerly had Bridgestone Blizaks on an Ody and were very squishy in dry. Very good in deep snow. Went to Michelin X-Ice 2 3 years ago. Not quite as good in deep snow, good in ice. Much, much better in the dry.
Dunlop Winter Sport on TLs, good on ice/snow and in the dry nice handling for a snow tire.
I have a set of Blizzak LM-25 RFTs mounted on a set of aftermarket wheels for the E90 3er. The Wrangler wears Dunlop Radial Rover XVTs which are all-season tires that also carry the winter rating. The X3 and MS3 will make do with Cooper Zeon RS3-A UHP all-seasons. All of which ensures that my part of the country will see little or no ice or snow this season... :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think some places in Europe, like Austria, mandate winter tires for a few months, too.
Per wikipedia:
In Europe, requirements for snow tires vary by country: in Austria, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Latvia, Norway, Romania, Slovenia and Sweden, the use of snow tires is a legal requirement during winter months (usually November to mid-April) or if snow or slush is present on road surfaces: failure to comply can result in on-the-spot fines from the police.
I really got tired of messing with that back in the day. Either you were horsing heavy wheels/tires around twice a year (and having to store them somewhere) or you were going to the tire shop twice a year and hoping a bead didn't break from all the frequent changeovers.
...for me to switch over from "summer tires" to "snow tires." The last car on which I performed this ritual was my 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis and that was in November 1997. I still had a set of studded snow tires with nice wide whitewalls I bought in 1989. These snow tires lasted a long time because I worked locally and they were on the car a short time each year. PA state law mandated studded tires couldn't be on a car earlier than November 15th or later than April 15th.
Even here at many times of the winter in the mountains, it is "traction tires required" (or sometimes more) - if you crash and lack said tires, you get a ticket.
Comments
Unless it is an Acura :shades:
And for some cars, sometimes a Honda is an Isuzu. In England, there was a Triumph that was a Honda. And we had a Saturn with a Honda heart. And so on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qA-6xWHnSto#!
For the USA they should repackage that ad. You need the extra clearance to drive over DC's potholes!
To be fair, recently they've been far more independent.
The best slogan related to that Honda one was used by MB in the UK some time ago: "A used Mercedes is still a Mercedes".
URL if you can't see the embedded image:
http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec-blog/images/2005/12/07/mustang_chains.jpg
The XV has really good ground clearance. Trucks that are out there leave tracks behind, so any car with the same or more clearance is usually fine. Any less and you high center.
The XV would easily get around unless it's virgin snow and the driver didn't know what they were going.
Remember Subarus weigh almost nothing. My Forester was excellent on the beach, even on soft sand. Drove right by a heavy dually that forgot to air down his tires.
They're more capable than you think, though driver skill is of course the biggest factor.
I never said they weren't capable cars, like you say, it is mostly about the driver.
I've taken the fintail and E55 out in snow. The old car is light, but gets a little iffy with old tires. I drove the modern car to work after a big snow in 2008, low profile tires and all. Had no issues at all until I reached a hill after a sharp turn near the parking garage at work. Had to slow down enough to kill momentum, and got stuck. But, I got some cat litter, got a push, and I was able to get out of it.
I hope it was a dusting, or at least less than an inch, and you were practicing drifting.
MT Subarus are better for that, the power cycles fore and aft and you can wag the tail (stability control off).
The automatics are more inert, it's tougher to break the tail loose. Probably better given the quality of driver's Ed in this country.
I don't need slick roads to drift that car :shades:
Next door neighbor has an E350 (W211), but they used their AllRoad, now traded for a CrossTour.
Even with the Audi she'd ask me to go to the store for her. :shades:
Wonder how the Honda will do? It's a bad copy of an Outback if you ask me.
That neighbor is probably iffy on dry roads. I could say the Crosstour and Venza both have tried to nose in on the Outback's market.
Plus it scrapes bottom with a dusting of snow.
I did attend a M-B event that had an AWD demo drive. They had a wet tarp and let you go out in a diesel RWD, then an E350 4Matic.
The diesel exaggerated the traction problem because after a little lag the power comes on strong, and breaks traction easily. The result was jerky, like the car had hiccups, traction control cutting in.
The AWD model was a smoother V6, back then pre-DI with less than 270hp, but linear power delivery. No problem on the slick tarp.
The E55 is pretty linear too. I had very littlle worries until that hill after slowing to a near stop.
A used Mercedes. And, the extra costs for parts and service at a Mercedes dealer vs Honda.
Through the years, Consumer Reports most usually has shown better ratings for reliability for Honda over Mercedes as these cars age.
Who buys a used Mercedes? Probably not one percenters. They can write a check for a new one or lease a new one.
If we all bought cars based on CR rankings, the motoring world would be painfully boring.
I suspect the bigger engines will have enough torque that people won't complain.
BMW's 535i felt lacking in response to me, as did the 328i. I can't imagine a 528i would be responsive.
Once they get going and spool up, I'm sure they're fine, of course.
Torque can solve a lot of problems - for instance, why drivers of emasculated huge 70s V8s with puny hp outputs still felt fine behind the wheel - they moved along effortlessly.
The Miata is ultra responsive. I can control speeds in tiny increments, even "brake" by reducing throttle position. Makes it very easy to position the car exactly where you want it.
Of course the next Miata may be a small displacement turbo, what's the rumor? 1.4T maybe?
Doubt I'll like it as much.
Hills are the downfall of RWD in snow, especially if not equipped with winter/snow tires.
Last winter a friend came over to our house after a 2 inch snowfall and we had not cleared it yet and it was not a "wet" snow. He has a recent 3 series coupe with all-seasons on it. He struggled up our uphill winding paved driveway many times sliding off. He was persistent, kept backing up trying over and over, finally got to the top.
On the other hand, we have no problem getting up our driveway in winter with our front drivers and snow tires mounted. Of course do not even try going up the driveway if fresh snowfall is higher than our vehicles' ground clearance.
My van has a loooong wheelbase, add a steep driveway, and it struggles to climb. All the weight shifts to the rear axle, which does nothing.
Our Subaru laughs off the same conditions.
RWD would actually work better than FWD if there's weight on the rear axle.
I doubt a Benz would be that way, some are the opposite.
Agreed. And still today in 2012.
Our State allowed studded snows for a handful of years. Put them on our RWD cars at 4 corners and the traction and handling in snow and ice was amazing compared to just plain snows. Of course, the studs ripped up the pavement and the State then banned use of these.
Downside to studded snows was on dry pavement at speed on interstate. Handling and feel was compromised quite a bit and with sustained speed, studs tended to fly out after some thousands of miles on the tires.
Ultimate setup, if still allowed in any State, would be studded snows at 4 corners on an AWD such as Subaru or Audi.
Think that is true here in northern Illinois.
If one can work from home on snowy days, then can get along with just all-season tires. Highway depts here are pretty good at scraping down and plowing roads soon after any snow.
But, we prefer to always be prepared, Have 3 vehicles, each with its own set of snow tires mounted to dedicated rims (Tire Rack).
Where in an old V6 GM car, I remember the smallest touch of throttle would shoot it off the line, where in a VTEC Civic it is like some motorcycles - you have to wring it a bit to get moving, and when you hit a certain point, it takes off like a normal car.
In the late 80s I used to valet park for beer money. Those GM V6s would *jump* off the line, then wheeze and run out of breath. Totally on/off throttle control. Terrible.
My grandma had an Olds like that. I remember the first time I drove it, I shot forward (I was inexperienced, and used to driving a fussy carb'd 66 Ford which also had a heavy throttle). I can't see how a little old lady drove it smoothly.
It was another 2+ hours to clear enough snow for my '02 Explorer to get out.
Last February, we went Indiana to visit one of the kids at school.
Took the then less than a year old Explorer, which I had never driven in snow.
Hit the snow about 20 miles from home and couldn't see anything for about 45 minutes.
Completely forgot it has 'snow mode' and despite all season tires, never slipped up other than almost going off the road a couple of times.
Good think for those rumble strips they build into the side of the highway.
Little did we know we were leaving 11 days without power behind us.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012121009031
Here's the ad itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OyRVBID0m9g
A home run vehicle, for sure, but no mention of the platform's roots or the Italian ownership.
According to article titled, Sacre' Pneu, in the latest edition of Car and Driver, all passenger vehicles registered in Quebec must wear winter tires between Dec 15 and Mar 15. eh?
Same Car and Driver declares that new Cadillac ATS is the best handling sports sedan on the market today. Probably will see lots of BMWs on the Cadillac used car lots next Spring. Will be seeing more and more Cadillacs parked in driveways of mc mansions and mansions.
Another thing about studded tires. Very noisy. Especially when 4 on a car.
Dunlop Winter Sport on TLs, good on ice/snow and in the dry nice handling for a snow tire.
If Caddy can create a legit S/LS/7er competitor, some real mansions might once again have a Caddy sitting out on display.
All of which ensures that my part of the country will see little or no ice or snow this season...
:P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Per wikipedia:
In Europe, requirements for snow tires vary by country: in Austria, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Latvia, Norway, Romania, Slovenia and Sweden, the use of snow tires is a legal requirement during winter months (usually November to mid-April) or if snow or slush is present on road surfaces: failure to comply can result in on-the-spot fines from the police.
Now I just have a winter car.