Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Of course data must exist. If you are that interested in getting advance details on this engine, maybe send a nice note to HMA and ask for their test reports. Hyundai, like other automakers, tests their vehicles under real-world conditions (actually, harsher than "real world" for most drivers.) The specs on the engine are readily available online (see sample link below). Do you have this kind of mistrust for every automaker, or is it reserved for Hyundai?

    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100331/NEWYORK/100339960
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The LS was a monumental success that largely redefined the luxury car business and also redefined the luxury car dealer.

    That's correct, and anything that can be redefined, can be re-redefined. I know your memory is long enough to remember how the Lexus was maligned. When you cite history, no fair being be selective. It will be interesting when the details come out on Hyundai's enhanced service program for the Equus. I probably won't be impressed, because how often would I even use it?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    An PR-style auto show unveiling isn't exactly what I was looking for. Has any at least halfway non-partisan source driven this thing?

    I love the angry-Pokemon face of that hybrid, hilarious. It's like Euro Ford meets anime.

    Do the fanboys only whine when H is questioned? Is curiousity automatically "mistrust" because one does not bow down for South Korean automotive prowess?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    You're not going to buy one anyway, right? :P

    I don't recall the Lexus being maligned at least after the first LS hit the roads on this continent. It must have been the cover story on every new car magazine.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited April 2010
    man, you're gonna have ta come up with a more hateful statement than fanboys for Hyundai lovers. :shades:

    How about Hyundai Funboys? :D

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Hyundai haters are just jealous. A company that has come out of nowhere (at least to them) is coming out with class leading automobiles in such a short time :shades: :shades: :shades: :shades: :shades:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    I completely agree with you. They and Kia both have made me so proud. :blush:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    "Funboys" has some less than positive connotations...I think they'd prefer "fanboys" ;)

    I'm not meaning to be hateful, just brash. Kind of like an Equus hood ornament or a blingy Sonata front end :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As has been said many times, but been ignored, some of us find the term "fanboys" offensive. Which is of course exactly why you continue to use it, right?

    I am glad you find the new Sonata so attractive, as has the professional automotive press. At the rate they are being snapped up, it appears the buying public finds them quite fetching also.

    And as we've already found out, the hood ornament of the Equus is not coming to the U.S. But since your focus is on the past, I can see why you would continue to bring it up.

    As for reports from real-world drivers on a car that won't hit the U.S. for six months or more... why would you expect to find that kind of report for ANY car? For example, when the 2008 Accord debuted in the fall of 2007, did we see any "real world driving" reports on the car the spring before? No. In fact, we didn't see ANY details on the car until right before its launch. Maybe you can post a few links to real-world driving reports on the new E Class, from at least six months before it went on sale, just to demonstrate that at least some automakers publish that kind of info.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Personally, I haven't been impressed with Kia yet. I don't think they have anything to write home about yet. Hyundai on the other hand has peaked my interest and I plan to visit them extensively at the auto show this weekend. I definitely am going to cross shop Hyundai the next time I'm in the market for a car. The Sonata being my favorite thus far. I'm also curious to test drive a Genesis again to see the ride enhancements Hyundai has supposedly made to it. It was the ride and handling that did it in for me when I test drove the 2009 but if they improved these areas that could put it into serious contention for me!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They and Kia both have made me so proud.

    Now that you mention it, Hyundai does seem to have a better overall reputation than Kia. Kia still means cheap to more people than Hyundai I think.

    And the front ends. Maybe Hyundai is taking design cues from Kia, who have that former Audi design guy doing their "tiger faces"?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Nobody has a right to not be offended, right? I am offended when my eyes are hurt by an Equus, but I deal with it :shades:

    Sonata is nice enough from the sides and rear, and angles...but the front doesn't warm me up. However, as the odds of me buying one are pretty low, it doesn't matter.

    Has H made a press release about that hood ornament, or is it just auto show babble?

    When is the more powerful turbo 4 even due in the Sonata? Preproduction versions of cars are often driven and reported eons before they are introduced, and they are usually very close to the finished product. There have been some pretty impressive claims about this engine in the Sonata, and I would like to see it happen...but do we know if it has even been mated to the car yet? How can you remember media coverage on an Accord from 3 years ago? When was the exact "first drive" on that car then?

    Maybe you can mellow out and not act like I am spitting on your mother and kicking your dog at the same time :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    IMO the upcoming Optima is better looking than the new Sonata.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Has H made a press release about that hood ornament,...

    I have a feeling you are the only person on Earth who thinks that defunct hood ornament would warrant a press release. Hyundai did release an official photo of the Equus sans hood ornament--not good enough for you, I guess.

    I think you have answered all of your other questions about the Sonata and its turbo engine with this statement:

    However, as the odds of me buying one are pretty low, it doesn't matter.

    Yes, indeed. It really doesn't matter, does it? You have no real interest in the Sonata's turbo engine. You are just trying desperately to find something, no matter how inconsequential or ridiculous, to kick Hyundai about. The Equus hood ornament has gone bye-bye, so you have to find something else to remind yourself why you hate Hyundai so much. So why not question whether Hyundai really does have a turbo 4 coming in the Sonata this fall? Maybe those Hyundai execs on stage at the New York Auto Show were lying! You never know, they would probably lie about anything, wouldn't they, just because they represent Hyundai. And maybe Hyundai hasn't even put that engine into a Sonata yet, just a few months before the Alabama plant is readied to produce the car for North America. Yep, Hyundai just made up the fuel economy figures they published for the turbo Sonata--they didn't actually test the engine in a real car. They don't even know how it will work yet... they just thought they'd announce the car to the world, with full specs, then go figure it out.

    You really are beyond belief. I am perfectly mellow... and I have a really good memory. I also have a pretty good b.s. meter. It's pegged right now. Time to ring up Scotty.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    once again you have proved the Hyundai point well. You could be a trial lawyer defending Hyundai. Good job.

    You really are beyond belief. I am perfectly mellow... and I have a really good memory. I also have a pretty good b.s. meter. It's pegged right now. Time to ring up Scotty.

    It's the above that cracks me up. fintail is going to himself "You did your job!" :shades: This little battle, even though entertaining, is still managing to be educational. Because one can still learn how Hyundai is basically trouncing most all of the rest of the automotive world right now.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    edited April 2010
    For all we know the hood ornament photo was edited. I am sure H has never told a fib. Or being in NYC, someone ripped it off.

    I'd like to see that more powerful turbo be reality, and be applied to a manual application. A properly refined manual Sonata with that engine would be something, and might get H to develop some fun-to-drive cars, which is what I would like to see (other than invisible "tuned" cars that never seem to show themselves :shades: )

    What am I ridiculing in regards to that engine? If I want to ridicule, I can find plenty in the styling of the Equus or the overdone bling of the Sonata front end. But I'm not doing that, I am asking about an engine that as of now is a very rare type on this continent.

    So, nothing other than press releases about that engine existing in a car? As I am sure a computer simulation couldn't estimate mileage and performance.

    People who are mellow don't get "pegged" in any way. :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Which firms are "most all of the automotive world"?
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Backy,

    Don't forget Captain thinks the same way.

    Even if Hyundai bought out MB and BMW in Captain's mind Hyundai would still not be considered a luxury brand. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    What, no detailed reports from MB on real-world driving experiences in the latest E Class from 6 months or more before its debut?!? How remiss of MB! How could you even consider owning a car like that, when the manufacturer isn't more forthcoming with info on new models?

    Energize.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As fintail said so well... it doesn't matter.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Irrelevant comparison, seeing as the latest E-class didn't have a new powertrain.

    Where's that tuned car again?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    Sorry, you lose. As captain2 has pointed out, the Theta II in the 2011 Sonata is an improvement over earlier Thetas... not a new design. So it's an improved powertrain, but not a "new one". Not that it should matter one bit... still lots of improvements in the new E Class to write about, yes?

    So feel free to post those links for the real-world driving experiences of the 2010 E Class from 6 months or more before its debut.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    A 270hp+ turbo 4 is a completely new ideal for a Hyundai sedan.

    Why is a comparison to a random German car even relevant to the Korean car? H and MB don't even unveil cars in the same pattern. 6 months before its debut? Is there even a solid introduction date set for the new engine?

    Feel free to drop red herrings where you please, and declare victory on the slightest whim with nothing to back it up. It's amusing :P

    Tuned car, where are you?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    A 270hp+ turbo 4 is a completely new ideal for a Hyundai sedan.

    Oh, so now I see you have accepted that the turbo 4 in the Sonata is over 270 hp, as Hyundai's execs have claimed. And it didn't even take a real-world driving report for you to acknowledge that. Good start.

    When you are ready to demand the same info (e.g. real-world driving reports on cars that are months from introduction) from other automakers as you demand from Hyundai, then you'll demonstrate you have some shred of fairness in your position.

    FWIW, I think there's specialists who can help with memory loss.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    I don't recall doubting the power output...if you have such a stellar memory, maybe you can show where I questioned it?

    That subjective opinion of fairness is duly noted, but it doesn't impact me. Not to mention...the world isn't fair. There are no other upcoming products like this for me to observe, nothing with the potential to be such a significant shift from the respective automaker's previous products.

    Maybe I need my vision checked so I can find invisible links :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Is any real world data for this Turbo actually known?

    Would "any real world data" perhaps include data on horsepower ratings?

    Now, I am sure MB must have something up their sleeve worth your attention. Nothing innovative coming from them in the near future? Maybe if you ask them, they would send you the real-world driving reports on these upcoming vehicles.

    Actually, it appears you need to have your vision checked to see the VISIBLE links that are posted in this discussion. After the memory check-up. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Not really, hp could be estimated via computer simulation. The specs are believable, but it would be interesting to see if this thing has actually been placed in a vehicle, to know that maybe it won't be an empty promise like automakers love to deliver now and then.

    Nope, I am not frothing at the mouth over anything upcoming from MB. I am sure there are some upcoming innovations as there has been constantly since before H was a twinkle in its mother's eye, but I'm not obsessing over it as I don't expect any quantum leaps.

    If the link is so visible it should be easy to repost. That is, if it happened. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    About as easy to repost as it is to search for, using the handy box for that purpose. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Even if Hyundai bought out MB and BMW in Captain's mind Hyundai would still not be considered a luxury brand
    thank you for rtying to put words in my mouth - but if you would wish instead to rephrase that as a question then:
    As I have said a number of times Hyundai could go out and buy up every Benz, Bmw and/or Lexus product and still not sell true luxury cars IF we also assume they choose to market those products as 'Hyundais", and sell them at the same dealers that cater to the same mass market.
    What I can't seem to get through to you folks is that THIS HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE CARS AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THE BRANDNAME. Hyundai is not currently a luxury brand and nor will it ever be as long as they sell those high volume (and much cheaper) vehicles that they do. Even the current Gen sedan which arguably has enough bling and other physical attributes to meet the standard of what a luxurious car needs to be, ultimately can not be one simply because of what it is sold as, what it is sold with, and,of course, where it is sold.
    I will even go so far to opin that even the more expensive and even blingier Equus will fail as a 'luxury' car just like the Phaeton did not too long ago- a perfectly decent attempt that is not accepted as a luxury car simply because of its brandname.
    If it makes you feel any better - Toyota can only make 'luxury' cars called Lexuses, sold at places generally unique to that brand, and usually not amongst those cheapo Yaris' etc. that they sell as 'Toyotas. Hyundai's in exactly the same situation, without any established and unique Genesis brand (or Gen dealer) - which is most of the problem.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    Hyundai is not currently a luxury brand

    Neither is Mercedes then. I don't care how many S Class cars they make, any company that sells Smart cars, taxis, Sprinters and buses isn't a luxury brand.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I'm not meaning to be hateful, just brash.

    I think it's called "snarky".
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Smart cars, taxis, Sprinters
    must be a version of the English language you share with backy -he thinks Mini is the same as BMW.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Because one can still learn how Hyundai is basically trouncing most all of the rest of the automotive world right now.
    I'm all ears - why don't YOU tell me exactly how Hyundai is 'trouncing' anything - a brand that didn't even make the top 10 in JDP's recent dependability ratings.
    Toyota/Lexus was there, Honda/Acura , of course, was there, Ford brands made 3 appearances, but, what, no Hyundai?????
    For as easily 'influenced' as I think of JDP is - you would have thought that Hyundai would have written a check in that direction - just to confirm all this 'trouncing' of yours.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    Mercedes is a big transportation company that makes all sorts of vehicles. They apparently don't have the funds, expertise or desire to make ocean going freighters or personal jets like some other car companies. Some fanboys will still insist they are a luxury company, when they simply make luxury vehicles as part of their overall transportation business.

    And yeah, I used to bug my Volvo driving friend about his Ford. Rolls are made by BMW too (and there was even a Rolls Royce MINI, lol). VW got Bentley.

    Let's take a favorite of mine - Hershey Bars. A consumer brand. Now, the chocolate snobs who think they should only eat luxury dark cocoa stick to their Sharffen-Berger - after all, even Julia Child said it was the best chocolate in the US.

    And guess who owns Sharffen-Berger? Yep, Hershey.

    I think it's more logical to say that some manufacturers make luxury items in an attempt to broaden their pool of potential buyers as much as possible. Some create new brands in the company to try to differentiate the brand from the parent company.

    Maybe some outfit like Tiffany could be considered a luxury brand (but for all I know, maybe they cheap out and sell $12 pot metal MB key chains).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    must be a version of the English language you share with backy -he thinks Mini is the same as BMW.

    And you were talking about someone else putting words into YOUR mouth? LOL.

    What I have mentioned before is that my local BMW dealer sells Minis and BMWs in the same building, literally right next to each other. Which blows your assertion that Hyundai can't successfully sell Accents and Elantras in the same dealership as Genesis sedans right out of the water.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If the JDP studies are as easily "influenced" by automakers writing checks to them, as you have asserted... how is it relevant to this discussion? Are you complaining because Hyundai didn't write a big enough check to JDP? :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    MB was a premium company from the beginning, only moving to the mass market in 1931 and the cheaper market recently. BMW started off with cheaper cars and moved into sporting models pretty fast, but always had the cheapies around - didn't really go for luxury until well after the war. RollsMW and Volksley, well, who knows what to make of them :shades:

    Lindt chocolate is pretty affordable and has good quality, I prefer it. The Swiss domestic Co-op brand also gets high marks at a low price. But I digress....

    Luxury is subjective...many people would find a leather lined navi Corolla to be luxurious. Brand rep is the real story.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    I would qualify that to say that marketing of the brand reputation is the real story. :shades:

    Even if you earn your rep, maintaining the brand rep is full of pitfalls too (Toyota, Jaguar, Land Rover, New Coke, Eddie Bauer....).
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    There is one side that says no matter what Hyundai produces, does, say, market, they will never, NEVER, by room for Hyundai in the luxury market.

    The other side says yes there is room for Hyundai in the luxury market but it will continue to take time, marketing and continued improvement ot the brand.

    The Genesis has been an admiral start and soon will be join by the Equus which will be watched even more.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    Never, never, never. And Daimler/Benz will always be associated with Chrysler.

    Strike that, I meant to type Nissan. Oops, I mean Daimler/Renault. Can't wait to see Fintail one of these years and ask how his Le Car is putting along. :shades:

    Daimler, Nissan, Renault Partner for Economics, Product Sharing (AutoObserver)

    Next thing you know, Hyundai will buy part of Kia. Talk about diluting the brand, eh? :blush:
  • carstrykecarstryke Member Posts: 168
    "There is one side that says no matter what Hyundai produces, does, say, market, they will never, NEVER, by room for Hyundai in the luxury market"

    YUP....they should stick to where they belong ....the 0-$20,000 range :lemon:

    and /agree with Fintails nitpicks on the equus/sonata

    You Hyundai fools need to get in and out of your Sonata's backseats a few times to knock some sense into yourselves :P

    and whats the deal with Korean designed rims.....all Korean rims make me wanna gouge out my own eyes
  • diemusikdiemusik Member Posts: 12
    What a stupid and hateful post. No one's stopping you. Go right ahead.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    No intelligent thought or reasoning behind the comments, Makes Fintail look like a saint!!!
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Member Posts: 303
    Man, what's up with you and fintail? There are cars out there that I dislike, but I don't go there forums to bash them or ridicule them. It's just a waste of time and energy, especially since I would never consider buying one. So why don't you guys do us all a favor and just stay off this and any other car forums where you have no interest in buying the vehicle mentioned. I was told once that opinions are like AHOLES, everybody has one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Keep in mind that this discussion isn't about a particular car, and there are "pro" and "con" sides to the topic.

    But I do appreciate it when posters' brains are engaged in Town Hall, vs. just glands. ;)
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Hey lighten up!!! It was a lighthearted complement to fintail and not a personal attack as you have suggested. Although Fintail and I have opposite views of Hyundai in the luxury market at least he has reasoning behind it not the stupid comments made by others.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited April 2010
    The specs are believable, but it would be interesting to see if this thing has actually been placed in a vehicle, to know that maybe it won't be an empty promise like automakers love to deliver now and then.

    "This thing" is only a 274hp 4cyl engine. Hardly a great acheivement, pretty ho-hum actually. The only things about it that impress me are that it uses regular gas and has a 10 year warranty.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, BMW also had the Baroque Angel back in the day:

    image
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Funny I never felt foolish buying the Veracruz. I had 2 years of very good service from it, and not a single complaint from any passenger. The only reason I no longer own it is I needed AWD and it was only FWD. I couldnt find one in AWD I could afford, so I got something else, but I never felt like a fool driving it, and I laugh at all the people who drive in the junky RXxxx series Lexus. I test drove a couple of those, and the Hyundai was a better vehicle.

    The only fools I see are those who bash Hyundai, because they haven't got a clue.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,525
    Yeah, the 501 series was their first real attempt at a luxury car. They had made cheap cars and sporty cars for 30 years before that...and really didn't get much highline sedan cred until the Bavaria of the early 70s.
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