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Comments
By your logic, you can't post here unless you buy a Genesis or above...
Hyundai has historically done quite well in JDP rankings. The fact that Hyundai was missing from this last 'report' mystifies me - while most would not think of Hyundai dependability on the same level of Honda and Toyota (maybe THEY are the ones with the loose checkbook
The fact that JDP is in it 'for a profit' and does derive income from their 'findings' does make all its results suspect in my mind. Hyundai has historically done relatively well in JDP studies, particularily 'value' and 'initial quality'. Now, all of a sudden, Hyundai is a notable omission (along with Nissan BTW) , and I can't help but wonder why - particularly in something so important to any improvement to Hyundai's brand reputation - which is where the 'relevance' is.
History has demonstrated that to establish a 'luxury' brand (and therefore be able to sell 'luxury' cars IMO), the mfgr. involved should be pretty well thought of. These JDP rankings, if they are is worth the paper they are written on, seemingly saying that Hyundai has still got a way to go?
While I definitely am a fan of the generally superior automobiles that MB does sell in this country, I also criticize them trying to cater to too many of ends of the market simultaneously therefore diluting some of that exclusivity that is a part of what a luxury brand is.
But in no way is MB a mass market brand in the same way Hyundai, the D3, and the J3 all are, at least not here in the the good ole US of A. As soon as MB starts selling MB branded econoboxes for 10 or 15 grand , let me know, and I'll be the first to remove them from my list of those that make luxury cars.
But it appears to me that you are saying these rankings are NOT worth the paper they are written on, so... the whole thing is kinda moot, eh? i.e. not worth the pixels it's displayed on.
But assuming there is any merit in this latest JD Power study, is being just behind Acura and ahead of Cadillac, Infiniti, BMW, Volvo, and Audi a bad thing? Even way ahead of Subaru, which normally has a good reputation for reliability. Also note that this study covered 2007 model year vehicles... so it doesn't include the Genesis sedan.
Some of it goes back to the conglomerate making a bunch of different brands to target different markets doesn't it?
Mercedes/Smart, Cadillac/Chevy. Hyundia/Kia would be logical.
I don't know how cheap the Smart car ever was, but it was engineered by Mercedes. No reason why it couldn't have been branded a Mercedes Sub-A class and sold for $15 grand imho (looks like an A Class runs around £15,000, give or take a couple of thousand pounds).
Didn't the Smart start out as a Mercedes Swatch?
yes it would be - as soon as Hyundai makes that decision to 'give' 99% of its sales to Kia. Hyundai, as well as several other mass market cos. sells things like Accents, Elantras, Sonatas, Santa Fes. etc etc. and NOT luxury cars.
Don't know if the Smart was originally intended on being under the MB brand, but the fact that it isn't is a good example of how the folks in Stuttgart understand the American autobuyer brand sensitivities - unlike somebody else I know.
the Genesis would be the one model that you wouldn't want included in a 'dependability' survey. The Gen, primarily because of all the bling, would naturally be LESS dependable- not more. CRs recent survey (09 Auto issue) says the same thing, early results on the V6 is better than average, the V8 merely average, while simple things like the Elantra are class leading.
The Elantra is a design from the mid-2000s, with a powertrain that dates back to the mid-1990s (with some refinements along the way of course). So naturally a car like that should have higher reliability than a brand-new design.
depends on one's perspective I suppose - but a corollary of Murphy's Law - the more things you have to go wrong - will. You can also call it a condition of the German sedan, and usually the folks that buy them do so with the understanding that there is a price to pay for all that high tech engineering etc. Those folks most times enthusiasts, that have a bit different perspective than many of the rest of us.
And yes, a car that has had several years to get it's bugs worked out - usually more dependable. Both reasons why you don't logically want to point to something like a Gen as an example of Hyundai's ability to make a dependable car.
Just another reason why the solid reliability record of the Genesis sedan to date is all the more impressive.
'to date' is the key phrase there - reminder that Hyundai's first effort at going upscale, the Azera, did much worse in its second year than its first.
There are only 2 vehicles I'm interested in purchasing and that's the 2011 Sonata and the Genesis. I'm starting to lean more towards the Sonata know though. But sooner or later the Genesis will also grace my driveway.
actually have no problem with the Azera at all - IMO a credible effort at a vehicle that should really define the 'limits' of the Hyundai brandname. Just like the Avalon, the Maxima, the Taurus etc. it is really what a 'flagship' of a mass market brand should be. The Genesis IMO to me oversteps what the carbuyer is willing to accept from a mfgr called Hyundai. Call it something else, and sell it somewhere else, we might have a different story.
Unfortunately now though I see the Azera as an abandoned child, as Hyundai endeavors to make an impact in a market that they plainly don't belong - at least not the way they are attempting to do it.
Let's assume you are correct on that. That would mean that sales of the Genesis sedan would be near zero... especially in the U.S. ("sell it somewhere else"). It would also mean that the automotive press would have thrown up all over the idea of Hyundai selling the Genesis, i.e. overstepping their bounds.
But sales are pretty good, topping some direct and entrenched competitors, and the automotive press has been quite positive overall on this offering from Hyundai (e.g. NA COTY, MT COTY runner-up). Also look to the right, and it appears that owners are positive about their cars. And they bought a car called "Hyundai Genesis", not some made-up name that doesn't have the hard-won reputation for quality and reliability that Hyundai has built for itself, despite folks like yourself who refuse to recognize current reality.
So your opinion isn't supported by the facts in the real world. It appears your perception of what Hyundai should be is not shared by the automotive world at large.
Not only would they never buy one, they even refuse to test drive one. That leaves only 1 logical reason for them being here.
the fact that they can sell 1500 or so copies a month means nothing more than that the car is finding a few folks that recognize it for what is undoubtably is - a lot of car for the money. Most Hyundai products are.
It says nothing about the Genesis competing successfully as a luxury car because that is NOT how it's competing. Very hard to compete as a luxury car when it isn't one! I would further suggest that Genesis sales still pale in comparison to those Avalon/Maxima/Taurus sales which is the Gen's true competition - aka $40k upscale sedans.
The Equus sales I would suggest do project to those astronomical levels recently enjoyed by miscreations (marketing wise) like the Phaeton. It is awfully hard to do worse than 'zero', although I'm sure that when Hyundai finds a taker for its 100th Equus both you (and Hyundai press releases) will be happy to declare it a success. We'll see what happens with that one should Hyundai try to sell it as a 'Hyundai'
Luckily for Hyundai, many people actually test drive the Genesis (and soon the Equus). When you test drive the car, you tend to forget your prejudices and obsolete beliefs, and pay attention to the car wrapped around you. Watch out, it really works.
So you know for absolute certainty that all, or even most Genesis buyers, did not cross-shop cars like the ES, GS, M, 5 Series, et. al.? You are sure they all were looking only at the likes of the Avalon, Maxima, and Taurus?
How about some factual evidence?
BTW... the Genesis isn't a luxury car in your opinion. I know many people, including professional automotive reviewers, who disagree with you on that.
that number was discussed here on this forum for months - something like a paltry 25%? And that number a claim by a Hyundai exec who conveniently gets to define what he thinks luxury cars are and are not. Think about it, what percentage of folks that are out buying those true luxs, are limiting their cross shopping to that and other true lux brands and probably wouldn't consider a Hyundai if you held a gun to their head - the other 75% ??. Given the price similarities it would seem to me there are more Avalon/Max potentials out there buying the Gen, than there are those that can spend the extra $ and buy something (that is perceived to be) better. And even then, they are not doing that in droves either, 1500/mo. is unremarkable in that $40k upscale sedan class. The Avalon, when it was new (05-06) was selling almost 10000 vehicles/month and there were waiting lists. . This would all get back to somebody understanding, for example, that Avalons can and do cost $40k whereas in the case of a Hyundai product the attitude is more like - you spent $40k on what? Hell, I'm not even so sure that the consumer has even adjusted to a $30k Hyundai yet judging by the sucess of the Azera.
and yes BTW the Genesis is NOT a luxury car in my opinion - and it has little to do with the car itself and EVERYTHING to do with brand reputations and perceptions.
To me a statement that says only 25% of Gen buyers are coming from ex Lux brands is more an indication that it isn't accepted as a luxury anything - and of a crappola economy.
I might go on a forum for a car I don't like, that has disappointed me, or a manufacturer I consider to have improperly treated me as a customer, maybe once or twice to vent a bit. To continue posting, while having no intentions of purchasing a car or any cars from a maker, over months, if not years, is beyond logic.
This is why at least CarolinaBob's intention was transparent and his posts credible - the basis for his agenda was clearly disappointment over his Azera and anger toward Hyundai.
But those who stay on here to continually be "brash," while having the audacity to accuse others of having a hidden, positive agenda for Hyundai - these are they who clearly have an agenda and simply too much time on their hands.
And that was for people who traded the likes of a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche on a Genesis... not cross-shopped. I am still waiting for your data on that.
We also talked before about how exclusivity is key for a luxury vehicle. Avalon, Maxima, Taurus don't have it. Genesis does, as your complaints about its sales numbers attest.
Anyway, you may get your wish at some point... Krafcik has talked publically about the option of starting a separate brand for Hyundai's luxury cars. Then you'll be free to drive one, maybe even buy one, safe in the knowledge you have a true luxury car because it doesn't have an "H" on the trunk lid.
That's really interesting (to me anyway). I think I must be the polar opposite. I'm impressed by some cars but I really don't hang my hat on the brand so much. Perceptions of the brand hold weight but perceptions of the car hold more weight.
To everyone else, if we just posted about the cars in our garages, some of these forums would be pretty empty. I don't think all that many folks are posting about '97 Outbacks or '99 Quests and if I wanted to talk to myself, I'd go start a blog, like so:
Today I aired up all 8 tires on both rides. Rats, forgot to check the spares.
I did, what's your point? I would do it again too if I wanted to, again, what's your point? I would gladly pay less for a Hyundai than more for a Lexus and get as much if not more than what Lexus has. Again, what's your point? Hyundai makes good reliable cars, the Santa Fe for example has a very high reliability record, higher than Toyota. The Veracruz I owned was a very good reliable car, and the 2010 Genesis should be just as good if not better then what Lexus has to offer in the RWD category.
BTW, Genesis is not in the same class as the Taurus, Avalon, Maxima, they are all FWD cars, Genesis is RWD. I sat in both the Genesis and the Taurus SHO, the Genesis is a finer car, and I am a Ford guy, so that means something.
Well that's true Steve, but test drives are free (and fun!). If I'm going to devote hours of my precious time denouncing a certain brand, I owe it to everyone to take a test drive. Not having a feel for the actual car, all you have is to talk about your perception of the car, and how much you dislike the brand.
When a bad car becomes a good car, there is a distinct turning point. The turning point is not always obvious. Savvy car buyers notice it, and get on top of it. Others lag behind, and notice it years too late. That's how I feel about Genesis, and Hyundai in general. I have no love for cars or car makers. All they want is my money, all I want is a nice ride. Driving a car can impress me, but will never be a religious experience.
and an arguably increasing portion of autobuyers out there are beginning to agree with you - including even me
BUT OTH to pretend that vehicles in the luxury category aren't bought in large part because of how a brand is perceived, whether that brand has that 'nasty' prestige attached to it and what kind of reputation that brand has - is also not understanding what the luxury car market is IMO. A 'luxury' car is MORE than one that is simply luxurious - as ridiculous as that may sound.
Furthermore, I would guess that a much higher percentage of Hyundai fanboys would share your opinion on this kind of thing than would if you asked Toyota or Honda fans.
But I just ask some of you who are die hard Hyundai fans, please don't start putting down and trash talking Lexus, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, MB, etc etc because it only makes you look like a hypocritic to put down the competition but then come back and complain that people are coming on here and trashing Hyundai! You guys don't need to stoop to their level. Be the better person.
Hyundai has come such a huge way in such a relatively short period of time. Be proud in the fact that their quality, styling, and reputation has taken a giant leap forward compared to where it was just 10 years ago! :shades:
pipe dreams - at least right now. The LS (and Lexus in general) is about the only luxury car of any brand that CR rates 'much better than average' the V8 Genesis is only 'average' - as could (and should) be anticipated with any truly new car - Despite your protestations otherwise, Hyundai and about every other manufacturer all have long ways to go before they even approach what Lexus has been pretty much since day 1..
Personally I love the way BMWs drive. Paying for maintenance on them after the free maintenance expires is another thing, entirely.
I like Nissan/Infiniti also. Just leased a new Sentra--my 3rd Nissan. And the G is in my sights in a few years when all the kids are gone (albeit it might be a slightly used one).
I respect MB a lot. I don't worship at the MB altar, however.
Hyundai already makes what could be a luxury vehicle - if it wasn't sold as a Hyundai.
Or alternately if a luxury car is nothing more than an combination of size, bling and other doodads - then Hyundai already does make luxury cars - even if few think so.
Such is the power of perceptions - and whatever drag is still attached to the Hyundai name.
the GS, in my mind, a somewhat feeble attempt at a Germanic 'sports sedan' - it's no 550. While the Gen slots between the LS and GS ,the Gen is a bit closer to the LS in size and spirit, and don't believe either will claim too many sporting pretensions.
no I'm not - and this I have been very consistent on - a luxury vehicle MUST have a luxury brand AND a luxury vehicle is more than just a assembly of specs and other bling.
Sorry, I just don't share in that view. That places the emphasis on "what is a luxury car" to what OTHER people think of my car... not what I think. As I've said here before, I don't give a rip what other people think, e,g, whether they think my car is really a luxury car or not, unless they fork over the money to buy the car for me. I guess some folks care a lot about what others think. I care about what pleases me and meets my needs. Maybe when I was 15-20, I would have cared more about peer opinion. Although I drove a beat up Coronet and a strippo Corolla then, so obviously I didn't think too much about it.
that would (and should) be a good first step. The new dealership that comes with that new brand, the type of cars it is sold with (ie no like branded cheapos), and how successful Hyundai might be in distancing the new brand from its originator are also necessary steps. Think Lexus in 1990 on that last one although I don't think that many would try to argue Toyota had a 'better' rep in 1990 than Hyundai does today.
Brand 'snobs' however shallow, do exist and make up a good portion of who buys the lux brands. The rest are enthusiasts, but there are still a bunch of MB/BMW owners that couldn't even tell you which model they are driving - only what brand they drive - knowing, of course, that all us plebs will then cower in their presence!
The price of admission is too high for me (you have to go to the dealer and run the salesperson gauntlet).
If you need a lift, Hyundai has you covered.
(too bad they didn't run that story about 14 days ago).
The above statement sums up exactly the important point. It's about the car, not the brand. Marking.
Kind of like branding cows. Oh, that is important. Our former landlord when we first got to Willcox was accused of stealing another's cows over here. More on that if anyone's interested.
Later.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That view is coming mostly from the 5% of hard core enthusiast drivers. They believe they are uniquely qualified to dictate to the rest of us what a luxury car ought to be. Well I ain't listening.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
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