Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

tjc78

Uh... tell me WHY I care what that person who sees me pull up in my car thinks?

You may not care, I may not care.... however, you can't tell me that a rather large percentage of people do. How else can you explain the large percentage of 20 something females driving 3 series BMWs. Are they all driving them because of their "driving experience". I don't think so.

bobad

TJ,

I can't control how others perceive cars, or whether they do their homework or just guess about things. I've driven a lot of nice cars, and Genesis is right there with them. What someone thinks due to a lack of knowledge makes exactly zero difference to me. I think we're on the same page if not the same paragraph.

tjc78

Do you ever go to auto shows?

Yes

I noticed many people oohing and ahhing over the Genesis--and in the last auto show, the Equus. They seemed to think the cars were pretty "special."

Maybe so... how many of them (with the means to do so) have "put their money where their mouth is" and bought one?

The Lexus ES350 sold more than 48,000 units last year. Its priced similarly to the Genesis and aside from its pillow soft ride is probably an inferior car to the Genesis. (FWIW I cross-shopped the ES) Please explain to me why it more than doubled the Genesis sedan totals?

tjc78

I think we're on the same page if not the same paragraph

Yes we are.... remember I own a Genesis. Its a great car, I am not satisfied with the ride (a preference thing more than anything) but otherwise I have no complaints.

I am talking perceptions and pointing out reasons why I feel Hyundai isn't ready for the lux market, no matter how good the cars may be.

captain2

I can't control how others perceive cars
granted YOU can't. BUT you could, at least concede what Hyundai's perception problems are and how that effects the company's luxury aspirations. You may be right and everybody else may be wrong (as you seem to contend) but that's hardly the point.

captain2

also read an article recently that stated 5 years ago Hyundai was prepping "Genesis" as their stand a lone luxury division but estimated that in order to do that it would have to add $5000 per vehicle to cover costs etc
as I have pointed out many times, it wouldn't have had to be this way if Hyundai had the same good brand perceptions that Honda and Toyota did when they had all those spiffy new dealerships built FOR THEM by those interested in selling the product and collect some rather stiff franchise fees to boot. Think Toyota, for example, actually MADE money establishing Lexus.
It does make some sense to put the cart in front of the horse establishing the car first and then hoping I guess that the customer can disassociate the new brand "Genesis' from Hyundai. Can't see any way, that a more concerted effort (the Equus) has any chance at all without that new brand and new dealership. Hyundai had better plan on free service pickup and delivery, because somebody spending 50 or $60k on a car is not going to want to even be in the same zipcode as a traditional Hyundai dealer.

lemko

If Hyundai manufactured the car in Philadelphia, I would consider it.

captain2

The Lexus ES350 sold more than 48,000 units last year. Its priced similarly to the Genesis and aside from its pillow soft ride is probably an inferior car to the Genesis. (FWIW I cross-shopped the ES) Please explain to me why it more than doubled the Genesis sedan totals?
you are probably not going to even get a response on that one in this land of H fanboys - but the answer is obvious and would have to recognize what the freight is still on the Hyundai brandname and also the importance of a luxury brandname on a decidedly more pedestrian offering. They won't acknowledge this but people buy the ES because it is a Lexus, and they don't buy the Genesis because it is a Hyundai - regardless of the relative qualities of each offering.

backy

You may not care, I may not care.... however, you can't tell me that a rather large percentage of people do.

I've said before that I am well aware there are many brand-conscious people out there. Many, but not all. From what I understand, a "room" doesn't have to include all people... just some.

backy

...how many of them (with the means to do so) have "put their money where their mouth is" and bought one?

Well, in the US, for the Equus... none to date. As you know, quite a few people--including you--have "put their money where their mouth is" and bought a Genesis sedan.

Why does it matter to you, or to this discussion, that the well-established Lexus ES outsold the Genesis sedan last year? Where is it written that in order for Hyundai to carve out room in the luxury market, it must outsell every car that is priced in the same ballpark--even a FWD luxury pretender like the ES? One big thing the ES has going for it, for mass market appeal, is FWD. Many non-enthusiasts prefer FWD. Also, many people happen to like the squishy ride quality of Toyotas and Lexii, including the ES. Is the Accord a bad car because the Camry outsold it last year? How about the Fusion--Camry killed that in sales. Many would say (me included) that the 2011 Sonata is superior to the Camry--but the Camry still sells more copies.

I guess if it's important to you to drive a car that is tops in sales, then comparing Genesis sales to the likes of luxury wanna-be's like the ES, or even the Avalon, Maxima, and Taurus is important. But since you drive a Genesis, I expect that isn't too important to you. Nor to me.

j2j

So still haven't addressed how the Lexus LS is a luxury vehicle here (as was the Infiniti Q) while the same models in Japan were/are (under your "argument") not luxury vehicles.
Most definitely did, how a particular Toyota branded model and/or a particular Nissan branded model are perceived OVERSEAS has nothing to do with the Badge-conscious AMERICAN consumer. You see, it's all about what's in a name IN THIS COUNTRY, and less to do with the cars themselves.

**************

Not quite.

The issue is what constitutes a luxury vehicle, period (and besides, didn't you already acknowledge that the Phaeton was a luxury vehicle?; the fact that it didn't sell well in the US being another issue.).

It seems a bit silly to say that someone who imports and drives a Toyota Celsior isn't driving a luxury vehicle, despite it being pretty much identical to the Lexus LS; or to say that it becomes a luxury vehicle if one just changed the badging from Toyota to Lexus (along the same lines, it would seem silly to think that a European driving an Accord could make his/her Accord a "luxury" vehicle by switching the badging from Honda to Acura).

tprice

I've had two recent encounters that sum up some of the "challenge" that Hyundai unfortunately continues to face. When I went to the BMV, the clerk, who apparently had seen me drive up, somewhat excitedly asked if that (Genesis) was my car. When I said it was, she asked what it was. As soon as I said it was a Hyundai Gen (before I could finish "Genesis") ...she said "Oh" very flatly followed by she "thought it was something else" - end of discussion, no further questions. I also had an appointment with a contractor at our house. He caught sight of the Genesis in the garage, seemed eager to find out what it was...but abruptly ended any further discussion after hearing it was a Hyundai. Seems crazy but seems to be the reality. If I hadn't put the Genesis badging on the car, I suspect neither conversation would have even gotten started. I got a very similar reaction last year from my boss when I said I had gotten a new Hyundai. Anyway, I feel like it is those folks loss for being so biased as to not "give it the time of day" so to speak ..looking no further or trying to educate themselves a little bit about the product. I've been very happy with my Genesis for the10 months that I've owned it - beyond a few things already noted (e.g., homelink not back-lit, TPS not displaying actual pressure in the tires, etc.) crits/nits that can be found on about any car. On the other hand, I don't mind that I don't see dozens of twins every day - it maintains some of the mystique!

j2j

I separate the two. Some people do not.

I don't. The whole thing about luxury is the total package. Its the car, the service, the dealership experience, and unfortunately the badge. If someone sees you pull up in an ES350 or a Genesis, which one does the majority of the population think is a:) more expensive and/or b: more luxurious? That is what a luxury name and image suggest.

********

One could pick up a Canali tux at one of the better Marshalls or TJ Maxx - does the fact that it was purchased from a discounter make the Canali tux not a luxury garment?

Along those same lines, Costco sells $60K pearl necklaces; I guess according to you, the $60K necklace isn't a luxury item since it is being sold in a rather spartan retail environment.

Costco also sells watches by Cartier, Baume & Mercier, Bedat and Chopard; I guess those aren't "luxury" watches.

And who really cares what the majority of the population thinks?

The majority of the pop. thinks that Bose is a premium/hi-fi speaker/sound equipment brand/manufacturer (due to the eponymous advertising) when pretty much all audiophiles think it is not even mid-fi, much less hi-fi.

Along the same lines, the majority of auto enthusiasts (who aren't just ignorant badge wh*res) would take the RWD Genesis in a heartbeat over the floaty, bland FWD ES.

And even the majority of the general public would consider the Equus to be more of a luxury vehicle than the Lexus HS or CT (or the Acura CSX, BMW 1 Series, Mercedes A or B Class, etc.).

j2j

How many classifications are we going to have?? IMO there are mainstream brands and luxury brands. There really isn't any reason to start creating several tiers of luxury. It's quite simple, luxury brands can make some entry level cars (think TSX / A4 / 1series) and mainstream brands can make some luxurious cars (think Genesis, Avalon, LaCrosse).

*******

Uhh, no.

Not only are exotic/supercar manufacturers such as Ferrari and Lambo on a totally different plane than mainstream luxury brands like BMW and Audi, brands like Rolls Royce and Bentley are on a different level as well (there's a reason why Mercedes launched Maybach to compete against Rolls and Bentley).

Also, the term "tier 1 luxury" is commonly used in the auto industry (Rolls and Bentley would actually be above tier 1) to refer to brands such as Mercedes and BMW.

Even Acura/Honda executives have stated that they haven't achieved tier 1 status.

backy

I am sure the clerk at the BMV probably drives an S Class, or maybe a new LS or 7 Series. Probably not. But she probably has a Coach purse that she bought on eBay for $30.

I also hear there are people living in East Texas who still think the War of Yankee Aggression is still going on. Yes, many people are slow to catch up with the times, to learn, to expand their horizons beyond their comfortable little worlds of Name Brands.

tjc78

Why does it matter to you, or to this discussion, that the well-established Lexus ES outsold the Genesis sedan last year? Where is it written that in order for Hyundai to carve out room in the luxury market, it must outsell every car that is priced in the same ballpark--even a FWD luxury pretender like the ES?

IMO the ES outsold the Gen (in its third year BTW) is simply because of the Lexus name (in 2007 it sold nearly 90K units). It doesn't matter to me, its just for the discussion purposes and why Hyundai doesn't have a good enough brand recognition yet to be in the luxury market.

tjc78

Along those same lines, Costco sells $60K pearl necklaces; I guess according to you, the $60K necklace isn't a luxury item since it is being sold in a rather spartan retail environment.

Costco also sells watches by Cartier, Baume & Mercier, Bedat and Chopard; I guess those aren't "luxury" watches.

A discount store selling a premium item is a lot different than a budget manufacturer selling a premium item. If all of sudden Timex started selling solid gold and diamond watches at 2/3 the price of a Cartier do you think Cartier would be scared?

Along the same lines, the majority of auto enthusiasts (who aren't just ignorant badge wh*res) would take the RWD Genesis in a heartbeat over the floaty, bland FWD ES.

Probably true (I did) although the majority of car buyer are not enthusiasts and most manufacturers would rather be selling to a majority than a minority. I personally believe there are plenty of "badge wh*res". The ES, TSX, and 1 series prove that.

tjc78

Uhh, no

Well I guess you have a point. The Rolls, Bentleys, and the Exotics are in a league of there own. However, those brands really aren't what we are comparing here.

backy

IMO the ES outsold the Gen (in its third year BTW) is simply because of the Lexus name (in 2007 it sold nearly 90K units). It doesn't matter to me, its just for the discussion purposes and why Hyundai doesn't have a good enough brand recognition yet to be in the luxury market.

If your logic is sound, then we must also say that Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda et. al. don't have good enough brand recognition to be in the mid-sized family sedan market, since the Toyota Camry outsells all of them.

IMO there is a difference between being IN a market and being the SALES VOLUME LEADER in a market.

You are also conveniently forgetting about the cars that people like fintail and I believe are the Genesis' closest competitors--the GS and M. Genesis outsells both of them handily. That brand recognition and luxury brand cache (ala "it'll sell even if it's $20k more") doesn't help much there, does it.

stever

Ok, next time someone asks, you have to say your car is a Mercedes. (and under your breath you can mutter "wannabe"). I'm sure you'll get a much better response, much better service ... and much higher bids, lol.

One time I went out to Katmai (where the bears are) and put my point and shoot camera on a tripod on the viewing platform next to the pros with their Nikons with zoom lenses that cost more than my car. Sort of fun. :-) Maybe I'll get a Rolex band for my Timex next.

And one of these days, I'll lose a couple of inches on my waist so I can wear my 30 year old Coach belt again too.

tjc78

You are also conveniently forgetting about the cars that people like fintail and I believe are the Genesis' closest competitors--the GS and M. Genesis outsells both of them handily.

I disagree there. They are the closest cars to the Genesis in terms of size, power, and drive wheels. However, I believe the competitors of the Genesis are the Maxima, Avalon, ES, TL and G. I am a firm believer that people shop by price point.

backy

That's true for some shoppers, but it will make for some odd comparisons, e.g. the Genesis 3.8 to the Maxima, Altima 3.5SL, Odyssey EX, 370Z, etc.

I think it's more common to shop for a cars that are relatively comparable in size and utility, and look for the best value within those parameters. So some people might compare the Genesis 3.8 to the Maxima and Avalon. But the ES, TL and G are smaller than the Genesis inside. And people looking for a powerful (ala V8) sedan with lots of luxury will certainly not look at the likes of the Maxima and Avalon and ES, but look at the Genesis 4.6, M, GS, LS, etc. What they might do, if they shop by price, is compare the loaded Genesis 4.6 to the base M and GS V6s.

bobad

granted YOU can't. BUT you could, at least concede what Hyundai's perception problems are and how that effects the company's luxury aspirations.

I agree that Hyundai has perception problems, but for no valid reason.

Perceptions of Hyundai cars still lag behind the vast improvements they have made in the past 10 years. Hyundai's aspirations are commendable. Every company must aspire to excellence. Some do and fail, some do and succeed. I suspect Hyundai will get there, just as Samsung and LG came out of nowhere and knocked off Sony and Mitsubishi in the electronics market. The Koreans have fire in their bellies to out compete Japan, and I wouldn't bet against them. It took Toyota and Honda 40 years to get where thay are. Give Hyundai 5 more years and let's talk again.

jimbres

The majority of the pop. thinks that Bose is a premium/hi-fi speaker/sound equipment brand/manufacturer (due to the eponymous advertising) when pretty much all audiophiles think it is not even mid-fi, much less hi-fi.

Couldn't agree more. For the past 25 years, audiophiles have been saying: "No highs. No lows. Must be Bose."

Along the same lines, the majority of auto enthusiasts (who aren't just ignorant badge wh*res) would take the RWD Genesis in a heartbeat over the floaty, bland FWD ES.

Again, I agree, & I should know because my wife drives (& loves) an '07 ES 350. It's a nose-heavy, curve-hating boulevard cruiser, albeit with the best seats I've ever encountered in an Asian car. (I think that the Euro brands do a better job, overall, with seating comfort.) I won't drive it.

But if you live in one of the colder, snowier parts of the country, you're almost certainly comparing the RWD Gen to the new 2011 AWD Infiniti M37x - not to the ES. In this case, which car would you choose?

acdii

Did you know if you slap a John Deere badge on an MTD mower, charge $1000 more for it, people will buy it? They come off the same assembly line, the frame is a bit thicker, has a different cowl and seat, maybe the mower deck has a different shape, but the engine and drive line are the same.

So if you slap a Lexus badge on a Toyota, Charge $10K more, people will buy it too. Its the same car, maybe better seats, a different interior, but its still the same car.

Lets face it, people are sheep, they see a Lexus, or MB, or BMW and think ooh rich person, which is why a lot of people buy the ES and C class cars, for the perception that they have money. It doesn't mean they are a smart buyer, if they were a smart buyer, they would cross shop, find a car with similar features, and buy the car that costs less money for the same features. That is why I went for the Veracruz, it had everything Lexus had to offer, for $10K less, heck it even looked like the Lexus. Hyundai is also in the top ten for reliability, in fact last year it took the #3 spot for most reliability.

I always thought Toyota made good cars, at least they are reliable, but after owning a Prius and a Camry, the only thing they have is reliability, they sure don't have creature comfort, or quality materials in them, in fact I was sorely disappointed after one week of owning the Camry after finding so many things in it that was just plain cheap, especially after having the Veracruz for a while. Now that I have a Ford Fusion, it is far superior to the Camry in every respect.

Yet people still flock to the Camry, so what does that tell you? It means brand is everything, You can slap a Mercedes badge on a pig, charge 10 grand for it, and people will buy it.

If I wanted to spend more money a month on a car payment, instead of spending less by getting the Fusion, I would be driving a Genesis right now instead. Why? Because I believe Hyundai makes GOOD cars, Equal to some, More reliable than others, and if it has a H on its trunk I really couldn't care.

tjc78

Lets face it, people are sheep, they see a Lexus, or MB, or BMW and think ooh rich person, which is why a lot of people buy the ES and C class cars, for the perception that they have money.

Wow... that is exactly what I have been saying!

bobad

Lets face it, people are sheep, they see a Lexus, or MB, or BMW and think ooh rich person

When I see someone driving a Genesis, I say "Ooh, smart person"...

...or at least an independent thinker.

schnellesauto

Mostly agreed... However when I see an ES, I think over-glorified Camry V6. Some people buy Mercedes, BMW because they want a rear drive car with good handling, which is hard to find if not impossible in the lesser brands! Is there any cheaper rear drive cars anymore except the Genesis? Nearly everything in that pricing segment is wrong (front) wheel drive. Infiniti (all rear drive) had some great deals last month, nearly $7k off MSRP with their VPP + rebates.

tjc78

Is there any cheaper rear drive cars anymore except the Genesis?

300/Charger and the G8 (if there are any left).

stever

slap a John Deere badge on

I borrow my neighbor's riding mower occasionally. It's an old department store brand, about 25 years old. It's all MTD underneath the paint. Whenever something breaks, you can look up the schematics online and figure out where something fits.

And it doesn't matter if the manual you find is 25 years old or last week's version. :P

captain2

when I see an ES, I think over-glorified Camry V6.
such is the power of brand perceptions - while the ES is (almost) mechanically identical to the top line Camry (as it always has been), it is, in fact different enough - eg fit/finish and even reliability primarily because it is assembled in Japan - unlike the Camry. I doubt very seriously that of all those 50000 ES buyers that many think they are buying a Camry or even a Toyota. Hyundai, if and when they become a strong enough brand to ever establish their own luxury division (and something they WILL have to do if they ever expect to be a player in that market segment) would logically do the same thing with the Azera and the Veracruz.
The ES250 (?) , if I recall correctly, was marketed almost immediately after the LS (and Lexus) was introduced. The fact that it succeeded is a testimony to the power of branding, the stellar reputation of Toyota at the time, the qualities of the LS, and Toyota's understanding of the American consumer - remembering also that it was Honda that showed the way.

schnellesauto

Agreed, ES/Camry V6. It would be nice to see Hyundai launch a luxury division, esp with Genesis, etc. Nissan, Honda, Toyota did.

lemko

Also the Mercury Grand Marquis for now. What about the Suzuki Kizashi?

backy

The Kizashi is FWD/AWD.

You cannot seriously compare the MGM to the likes of the Genesis sedan... and M, and GS, and... . It's from a whole 'nuther world--in which Ronald Reagan (maybe Jimmy Carter?) was president. They make nice police cruisers, though.

tjc78

How could I forget the GM? The Kizashi is F/AWD I just looked it up because I wasn't sure.

carstryke

ya you definatly can't compare them to the Gen. Now if we were talking about a Dodge Avenger on the other hand .........

backy

If you want to compare one of the worst FWD mid-sized family cars to the Genesis sedan, go right ahead. Not sure why anyone in his right mind would WANT to do that, but it is a free country after all.

smarty666

anything with Chrysler is the worst of everything! :P

backy

Well, they make some really good mini-vans--or at least used to. I owned 3 of them over the years. But I hate the 2008+ box on wheels look.

But it would be as (in)appropriate to compare one of them to the Genesis as comparing to the Avenger.

LASHAWN

No doubt, talk about comparing apples to oranges(more like tangerines).

acdii

Well, the Camry USED to be built on the line the ES is on, they moved it to the states, the quality that used to be in the Camry is now put into the ES instead. From a marketing standpoint, they got their ducks lined up pretty good. Lets tweak the Camry a bit, charge more for it, put a different badge on it, and call it something else, build a new plant in the states, cheapen the Camry, charge the same for it, and people will still buy it. They did well. :shades:

The other day I looked at an older Camry and was surprised at how well built it was, the material quality was much better than what they are putting in them now, I thought I remembered they were well made, which is why I was sorely disappointed in the one I bought.

OTOH lets compare a Ford Fusion Sport to the Lincoln MKZ, Fords Luxury line. Basically they are identical cars drivetrain and all. Interior wise, the Lincoln is setup a bit different, but the only real differences that I could see, it had Homelink in the visor, and the seat leather was of higher quality. The sound system is THX certified, but others have noted the Sony system in the Fusion actually sounds better. Unlike Toyota/Lexus, at least Ford puts quality into their non luxury brands.

It does go to show that people buy based on the name, I know a few buyers walked away from a Fusion after a test drive because the ride was too "stiff", but otherwise liked the car. Those buyers went to Toyota, but a lot of Toyota buyers did go to Ford. So Why can't the same happen with Hyundai? I think once people get past the stink from the early 90's that Hyundai was known for and come to realize, this is not the same car company, you will be seeing more buyers for their highline cars.

captain2

a Ford Fusion Sport to the Lincoln MKZ, Fords Luxury line
calling Lincoln a luxury line an interesting contention simply because there are no vehicles left in the line that aren't Ford rebadges. I would go even one step further and tell you that IMO the Lincoln 'dealers' are worst of all choices. Caddy does a bit better job staying above the fray because there are at least a coupla (CTS and STS) that are unique to Cadillac, and I guess their dealerships are generally maintained to a higher standard. Lincoln is still a 'luxury' brand IMO but is also one without any true 'luxury' products and is more known for outrageous depreciation than about anything else.
I will be one of the first to agree that Hyundai has come a long way in a relatively short time. But that stink you mention of 15-20 years ago is really what this forum is about. Hyundai is changing a lot faster than the consumer is, IMO. How the brand is perceived and accepted is everything when it comes to success selling vehicles that cater to the 'luxury' portion of the market.
Just be able to build a car like the Gen sedan, or even the Equus is plainly not enough, there are many many other things that primarily have to do with Hyundai's reputation that also need to be 'fixed'.

captain2

Give Hyundai 5 more years and let's talk again.
May not take that long - given Toyota's recent problems and how fast the auto industry is moving these days.
And I can tell you from personal experience that the Koreans have had a 'fire in their bellies' for 30+ years and are one of the few nationalities I've ever run across that look at their success with a patriotic obsession. The Americans and the Japanese were both like that once too - until success spoiled them. You have to wonder how long it'll take for S.Korea to get spoiled? :sick:

schnellesauto

Agreed. All the Lincolns are Ford Rebadges/re-works, at least the MKT (based on Flex) has 100% totally different sheet-metal. Then again Acura-Lexus are guilty of this in some of their cars too. Infiniti is the only one that starting next year doesn't have any Nissan versions. All new QX56 won't share Nissan Pathfinder/Armada platform anymore. The all-new Caddy SRX is a stretched Saturn Vue platform and is front drive biased.

backy

But that stink you mention of 15-20 years ago is really what this forum is about.

Consider that a large number of buyers in the luxury market are now entering their 30s. They were kids 15-20 years ago. They are probably Hyundai's best hope for their luxury offerings--those who aren't a prisoner to brand worship, anyway. Also those older buyers (like me) who realize that times change, companies change, and can look past the past to what is reality in the present. Also those millions of buyers who have experience with Hyundai vehicles in the past 10 years or so and have a positive opinion of the brand.

If any company is concerned about a "stink" affecting sales, it would be Toyota/Lexus. People tend to remember what happened in the past week or month better than what happened 15-20 years ago.

schnellesauto

Hyundai is changing a lot faster than the consumer is, IMO. How the brand is perceived and accepted is everything when it comes to success selling vehicles that cater to the 'luxury' portion of the market.
Just be able to build a car like the Gen sedan, or even the Equus is plainly not enough, there are many many other things that primarily have to do with Hyundai's reputation that also need to be 'fixed'.

Agreed again.. RE.. Hyundai... This kind of reminds me of when Oldsmobile tried to go upscale/luxury with the $32k MSRP Aurora V8 in 1995 (based on Caddy platform and based on Caddy V8) They even gave the Aurora the same 4yr 50k Caddy warranty. It never really worked in the end, sales weren't what they hoped. Hopefully the Genesis and Equus work out better.

schnellesauto

If any company is concerned about a "stink" affecting sales, it would be Toyota/Lexus. People tend to remember what happened in the past week or month better than what happened 15-20 years ago.

True, but I wouldn't count on that. Didn't last month Toyota just have one of their best sales months in their history or something like that?

captain2

Infiniti is the only one that starting next year doesn't have any Nissan versions
right now that is true - but think back to earlier Infiniti badged products - wasn't it products that were rebadges like the G20, I30 as well as Nissan's more pedestrian brand rep that hampered Infiniti's early successes. But all mfgrs rebadge to some degree, it really gets to be a question of scope and how that effects brand reputation. Cars like the ES, the TSX, the 1s, the Cs are all supposedly all 'entry level' and they all brand image to some degree. The Gen Coupe may be a perfectly fine rice rocket or pony car - but does nothing but hurt any ambitions that Hyundai might have in getting accepted as a luxury brand - it shouldn't be called a Genesis at all

backy

As did Hyundai.

captain2

Didn't last month Toyota just have one of their best sales months in their history or something like that?
yeah, they are doing some uncharacteristically strong marketing and discounting PLUS I think there is the beginning of a consumer backllash, folks that understand that a few hundred UA reports on several million cars 'recalled' is kinda inconsequential and even rebel more when these stories come out about Prius drivers looking for a hand out. :mad:
That said, however, Toyota's initial responses to what I believe to be computer problems has been less than awe inspiring.