Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

schnellesauto

Yes, the earlier Infiniti products were rebadged Nissans..the G20 (Sentra)... boy was that car UNDER-powered, I used to get them as service loaners, yes the I30/I35 was the Maxima.

The other issue with the Gen coupe is that Hyundai should have offered the V8 engine, it's already in the sedan. It's styling looks too much like the Tiburon in my opinion.

schnellesauto

As did Hyundai.

But Hyundai is not facing the public scrutinee that Toyota is with all the recalls/problems.

jimbres

And I can tell you from personal experience that the Koreans have had a 'fire in their bellies' for 30+ years and are one of the few nationalities I've ever run across that look at their success with a patriotic obsession.

During its brutal occupation of Korea (1910-1945), Japan tried to stamp out Korean language & culture, going so far as to force Koreans to take Japanese names. As a result, beating Japan at its own game (cars, high end electronics, etc) has become an obsession within the larger obsession to succeed.

I can tell you from personal experience that this obsession is paying off. When my sister paid me a weekend visit recently, she was bowled over by my Samsung LCD's picture quality & will soon replace her Sony with a Samsung.

backy

And it's not offering 0% for 60 months and free maintenance on most of its vehicles. The sales growth is being driven instead by the reception to new products such as the 2010 Tucson and 2011 Sonata.

schnellesauto

True, Although Hyundai is offering some good lease deals on that new Sonata I've seen advertised. Toyota has the all new Sienna minivan which is usually one of the best vans in that segment, either that or the Oddy.

acdii

Anyone remember the huge mistake GM made rebadging a Cavalier as a Caddy? Man was that ever a stinker of a move.

captain2

you mean the Cimarron? yeah it is assinne moves like that are blatant attempts to capitalize on brand reputations that can ultimately spell doom for that brand and/or brand reputation. Keep in mind though that Cadillac was wallowing in its own disrepute (remember the V8-6-4) at the time - the Cimarron was kinda in keeping with what else they had to offer. Amazing that they survived :surprise:

schnellesauto

The new SRX is on the front drive based Saturn Vue/Chevy Equinox platform. At least unlike the Cimarron they have changed the sheet metal enough. The previous SRX was rear drive V8 based.

backy

The lease deals on the Camry, Corolla, Prius etc. are very good also. Hyundai has no advantage there--except that the Sonata is a new design and the Camry is 4 years old.

Also, when people talk about how many more Toyotas vs. Hyundais are sold, I wonder if they consider Toyota has over 400 more dealerships.

smarty666

God that Camry is in bad need of a redesign! Lets see if Toyota can get the 8th Gen right, and no transmission troubles this time out of the gates!!!

bobad

Americans and the Japanese were both like that once too - until success spoiled them. You have to wonder how long it'll take for S.Korea to get spoiled?

A good question! Nothing spoils like success.

OTOH, the Korean electronics makers aren't getting spoiled yet. They're demolishing Japan, and competing well against Taiwan and the mainland.

backy

Here's a good example of how Hyundai is making room for itself with buyers who have owned brands such as BMW and Honda before, but never Hyundai... until now:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1cc229/2565#MSG2565

toye

Check the article the Wall Street Journal about the new Sonata.

The PR department at Hyundai couldn't have said it better about the Sonata, and where Hyundai is going.

This article will make Captain and Fintail blush!!!! :P

fintail

The Hyundai PR department probably paid for the "article"...I am unaware of any truly independent automotive review source on this continent. Certainly when MSN and WSJ are being sought for raves, something is off.

That being saidI am sure the Sonata is excellent for what it is, it really has no excuse not to be.

backy

The Hyundai PR department probably paid for the "article"...

As you are so fond of saying to the rest of us: show us the link, or it didn't happen.

toye

I wish I knew how to paste it other than writing down all the numbers and symbols

Here it is...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704133804575198213563849350.html?K- EYWORDS=sonata

I never complain as I know it sometimes a pain in the --s to copy long --s addresses

fintail

See above

backy

No... I meant the link to the info that says Hyundai paid the WSJ to publish the article.

fintail

I didn't say there was any info, did I? No, I didn't. Hence the word "probably". I don't see any source for automotive reviews on this continent that isn't in some way tied to advertising or other sponsorship.

backy

As you might realize by now, my request for a link was not directed at you, but at fintail for his comment on the WSJ article being paid for by Hyundai. I know how to look up a WSJ article if I want to find it. But thanks for posting the link to the article anyway.

backy

Fine. It didn't happen then... in any measure of probability.

fintail

Yes, I am sure WSJ would air negative opinions no matter the actions taken by advertisers. It is a veritable automotive bible, the paragon of credibility and experience, and the source for which all decisions should be made.

toye

Lets see WSJ, Market Watch, Barrons, All Things Digital, FINS and Smart Money are all connected by a network..... Wouldn't you think that the people they cater to are very well educated, wealthy..etc. I would think MB, BMW, and LEXUS would be doing a lot of advertising in these publications...Not lowly Hyundai,

backy

You didn't read the article, did you? If Hyundai paid for it, they didn't get their money's worth, IMO. :P

fintail

I think a lot of people who read financial publications aren't necessarily wealthy at all. Heck, when I was in school I had to subscribe to WSJ as a requirement for coursework in a few classes.

You know my original remark was partially in jest...but truth be told, you see few negative words aired about cars in the NA press.

fintail

I read the first paragraph and my attention span broke...so you're probably right

No matter...the Sonata won't be considered a luxury car no matter how it is configured.

toye

Of course I know your comment was in jest :P

backy

No, the Sonata is not a luxury car. But did you read the part about the Sonata being a stepping-stone to luxury cars? It's not enough to attack the luxury market directly. Another approach angle is to grab buyers for the "luxury car - 1", attract them to the brand, then sell them the luxury car the next go-round. I think that is one of the missions of the new Sonata.

fintail

It's a nice theory anyway yeah. I wonder how many new style Sonatas will be traded for weirdo KDM looking Equus.

toye

Same approach that BMW has done for years.... get them into a 3 series and grow with the brand.

fintail

I dunno if I can compare the lure of a 3er with a Sonata.

A lot of 3ers are also leased by people who are stretching to pay for that 328i. When people are willing to work to afford that Sonata instead of a cheaper car, then maybe.

captain2

Same approach that BMW has done for years.... get them into a 3 series and grow with the brand.
No not the same - the BMW 3 as well as it predecessor 1600s (?) and 2002s etc were THE cars that estabished and the term sports sedan - performance cars by most definitions that can incidentally get up past $40k pretty easily, and not even close to any Sonata past or present. It's kinda like those series of ads that Hyundai ran trying to compare the Sonata 3.3L to a 530 - ridiculous.
The thought that the $20k appliance otherwise known as a Sonata would have any appeal to the enthusiast, looking for something entry level (like the 3s) is a joke. Hyundai may be doing a lot of things lately but getting into any portion of the market where the true enthusiasts live is NOT one of them.

lemko

The Sonata is a great alternative for those who would otherwise choose a Camcord, but it is definitely not chasing the 3-Series and most definitely not the 5-Series.

captain2

The Sonata is a great alternative for those who would otherwise choose a Camcord

true

backy

The Sonata is not a 3 Series, but if it attracts 200,000+ buyers to the Hyundai brand each year--buyers who might otherwise have bought a Camcord, and who might be looking for something more upscale next time, e.g. a Genesis--then that's a big boost to Hyundai's strategy for making room in the luxury market.

captain2

but if it attracts 200,000+ buyers to the Hyundai brand each year--buyers who might otherwise have bought a Camcord,

when most of your volume is in selling mainstream' refrigerators and/or econoboxes, how does that translate into the brand snobs and/or enthusiasts 'making room'.
Wishful thinking ?
What it may do though, is improve overall Hyundai brand acceptance so they then can go ahead and create that 'luxury' brand - that sells true luxury cars.....

backy

I don't think it's "wishful thinking" to have a strategy that attracts buyers with compelling cars like the new Sonata, so they have a positive image of Hyundai when it's time to trade up for something up the chain. I think it's pretty logical. But then, that's the difference between my views and those of some others in this discussion, isn't it? Logic vs. clinging to 20-year-old perceptions.

captain2

clinging to 20-year-old perceptions
more like 15 but what the h_. NOT perceptions BTW FACTS (Hyundai earned every bit of their crappy reputation back then) ) and I guarantee you that I'm not nearly the only one that has a memory - some of us have real memories , some of us amnesia, I guess

backy

No, not amnesia. But willing to accept that facts change over time, rather than staying static. If everyone bought cars based on long-held memories and facts from many years ago, no one in the US would buy a car from a Japanese automaker, would they?

captain2

and even by the fanboy accounts on this forum the supposeded year of Hyundai's magic transformation began as late as 2006 - 5 YEARS AGO. :confuse:
Changing over time is one thing - it's been done before - changing literally yesterday is something different. Yes, while I'll readily concede that Hyundai is showing some great progress, I'll also reserve judgement for at least a few more years. AFAIC the jury's still out and will be 'out' a bit longer. Hyundai has not reached a point quite yet that it is generally considered an equal (remember we are talking perceptions here) to J3 brands. You, me, and anybody else that follows the auto biz may KNOW different - but then again that is not the point - sales stats would seem to indicate that we are in the minority.
When that perception reaches those heights, then there might be all kinds of room for Hyundai in the so called luxury market albeit called something else. For the time being I put the name/quality perception at some level approximating Ford's, improving but still lagging those of the J2 1/2.

captain2

No, not amnesia
OK, how about Alzheimer's?
Seriously, though, I think you guys are giving the American autobuyer way way too much credit - the information age not withstanding - they really will buy what they are TOLD is good, what they think their neighbors think is good, or what they previously bought probably for the same reasons.

backy

they really will buy what they are TOLD is good, what they think their neighbors think is good, or what they previously bought probably for the same reasons.

Then LOTS of American auto buyers were TOLD that Hyundais are good, that their neighbors think Hyundai is good, or were repeat buyers last month. And over the past few years actually.

I do give many American auto buyers a lot of credit. I see lots of evidence of smart shopping every day, including here in Town Hall.

But I don't give all American auto buyers a lot of credit. Some will do exactly what you say they do: base their auto buying decision on what someone else TELLS them is good, or what their neighbors think is good, or keep buying the same brand without checking out alternatives.

As for Hyundai's transformation, sorry, those who say it started in 2006 have their facts wrong. It started in the late '90s, with a switch to a quality focus from the previous focus on low price. It started showing up in models that debuted in the early 2000s, with the 2001 Elantra and Santa Fe notable examples. It continued big-time with the 24 x 7 product launch in the middle of the decade. And then came the Genesis, and the 2nd wave of 24 x7 vehicles such as the 2011 Sonata, and soon the Equus.

How many millions of people, how big a market share does Hyundai have to achieve, before it has some "room" in the luxury market? Not dominate the luxury market, not have equal sales to long-time participants in that market, but have a slice of the market? I think you are setting a very unrealistic and unfair bar for Hyundai in that regard--much higher than I'd bet you'd set for any other automaker. Take Bentley, for example. Is there room in the luxury market for them? But their sales volume pales in comparison to Hyundai's.

j2j

"A discount store selling a premium item is a lot different than a budget manufacturer selling a premium item. If all of sudden Timex started selling solid gold and diamond watches at 2/3 the price of a Cartier do you think Cartier would be scared?"

But Hyundai is a full-line manufacturer, much like Toyota is in Japan.

Again, while Hyundai is seen as a mainstream brand in the US, in its homemarket, it's seen differently.

And if Timex had started a premium line (like Toyota did w/ Lexus) or took over other watch brands (like Swatch) - why not?

Actually, cheap Japanese quartz watches were instrumental in SSIH (Omega/Tissot) going bankrupt in around 1980.

Also, Seiko has a line of dive watches that retail for around $7-10K that are highly regarded by watch afficiandos (more so than Cartier watches - which are more jewelry and not really taken seriously by watch snobs).

j2j

"I don't. The whole thing about luxury is the total package. Its the car, the service, the dealership experience, and unfortunately the badge. If someone sees you pull up in an ES350 or a Genesis, which one does the majority of the population think is a:) more expensive and/or b: more luxurious? That is what a luxury name and image suggest. "

On the service front, the Equus will have most luxury brands beat - w/ pick-up and drop-off service, guaranteed Equus or Genesis loaner, etc.

Also the Equus (for those Hyundai dealers that will actually get to sell the Equus) will have its own separate showroom.

j2j

"IMO the ES outsold the Gen (in its third year BTW) is simply because of the Lexus name (in 2007 it sold nearly 90K units). It doesn't matter to me, its just for the discussion purposes and why Hyundai doesn't have a good enough brand recognition yet to be in the luxury market."

In that case, why didn't the Lexus GS outsell the Genesis in 2009, or the Infiniti M (the Genesis sedan outsold them by a 2:1 margin)?

Or for that matter, the A6, the S80, etc.?

Even the new M is barely outselling the Genesis sedan.

j2j

True, but I wouldn't count on that. Didn't last month Toyota just have one of their best sales months in their history or something like that?

Toyota's sales for March 2010 is still below their March 2008 sales; whereas Hyundai is one of the few manufacturers to have sales greater than their March 2008 sales.

Also, Toyota threw a lot of $$$ on the hood (more than Hyundai) and bumped up their fleet sales (in Feb., Toyota had the highest % of fleet sales, followed by Ford).

j2j

"I disagree there. They are the closest cars to the Genesis in terms of size, power, and drive wheels. However, I believe the competitors of the Genesis are the Maxima, Avalon, ES, TL and G. I am a firm believer that people shop by price point."

That's quite the range in size and drivetrain configuration/HP.

Frankly, every owner of a G that I know wouldn't be caught dead in an Avalon, much less an ES.

So what will the next-gen Hyundai Azera be compared to - the Camry and Accord?

And I guess that means the new Sonata is being compared mostly to the Corolla and Civic instead of the Camcord.

It also means that the LS400 must have been cross-shopped mostly w/ the C Class and 3 Series and not even the E Class and 5 Series, since it was closer in price to the C and 3.

j2j

"The Hyundai PR department probably paid for the "article"...I am unaware of any truly independent automotive review source on this continent. Certainly when MSN and WSJ are being sought for raves, something is off. "

Yeah, cuz Hyundai is known to be such a big advertiser in the WSJ - lol!

j2j

"The thought that the $20k appliance otherwise known as a Sonata would have any appeal to the enthusiast, looking for something entry level (like the 3s) is a joke. Hyundai may be doing a lot of things lately but getting into any portion of the market where the true enthusiasts live is NOT one of them."

In your blind rage against Hyundai - you're missing the point.

As others have already noted - the Sonata could pull in some buyers who, after a positive experience, may give the more upscale Hyundai models a look (there have been some owners of the ES and TSX who have moved on to the Sonata).

And speaking of appliances, the ES (which is way more of an appliance than the new Sonata) did a pretty good job of pulling buyers to the other products in the Lexus lineup.

j2j

more like 15 but what the h_. NOT perceptions BTW FACTS (Hyundai earned every bit of their crappy reputation back then) ) and I guarantee you that I'm not nearly the only one that has a memory - some of us have real memories , some of us amnesia, I guess"

And there are still some stubborn old fogies in their 70s-80s who think Toyotas, Datsuns and Hondas (much less VW) are crap.

And btw, that crappy reputation was built largely by using substandard powerplants and drivetrains sourced from Mitsubishi.

Care to figure out where Hyundai's reliability rankings are in comparison to Mitsu? (Not to mention Mitsu having covered up dangerous defects.)