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Uhh, ever hear of a thing called the Integra?
The GenCoupe is as upscale, if not more so than the Integra - and it's not like the G35 had a better interior/dash before its refresh (due to Ghosn's cost-cutting) - and for a quite a bit more $$ at that.
And the GenCoupe is definitely more upscale than the Acura CSX, and probably on par w/ the Lexus HS and CT.
Anyway, it will soon be a moot point since the next gen GenCoupe is going upmarket.
You pounced me for saying essentially the same thing a while back.
Our only disagreement on the above are percentages and trends. I think more and more people are doing research, and disregarding brands. A few helpless people will always rely on the opinions of others, but most of us can think for ourselves.
Actually they are all very similar in size with only the Avalon and G being the largest/smallest of the bunch.
In terms of power all are close to 300 HP (except for Gen which can be had with V8).
And I guess that means the new Sonata is being compared mostly to the Corolla and Civic instead of the Camcord.
What are you talking about? The new Sonata's pricing is right inline with CamCordTima...
It also means that the LS400 must have been cross-shopped mostly w/ the C Class and 3 Series and not even the E Class and 5 Series, since it was closer in price to the C and 3.
Quite possibly in the same way that some are looking at the Genesis over a G in that it offers a larger car at a similar price.
Lets just agree to disagree... Aside from a small portion of the population people shop cars by price point. If you have 35K to spend your options are littered with great choices. While I do agree that many people who can afford an M or GS have purchased a Genesis, I also believe that many of the owners would be in one of the other 35K sedans I mentioned above if the Genesis didn't exist.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Actually Ford's Quality has surpassed the J3, the only thing keeping them down are the old Explorer and Expedition lines, which hopefully with the new release coming out, will improve their standings. Profits of 2.1 Billion are no laughing matter.
I owned a 2009 Camry Hybrid, within 2 weeks I had several complaints, I now own a 2010 Fusion Sport, I have had it now for 7 months and 15000 miles and not a single complaint. I also have a Ford Flex SEL EB, with 2500 miles and not a single complaint. You might want to rethinking your thinking on Ford, they are making some really good cars now. From my experiences, I would gladly take a Ford over a Lexus any day of the week. From my FIL experiences with MB, I will stay away from those money pits and go with the Genesis, the Hyundai I owned was a very good vehicle, and I would buy one again if the need arose(and the price was right).
you obviously aren't reading my posts and following the herd here in assumming I'm some sort of Hyundai basher. Quite to the contrary actually. Yes the comment that the Sonata could be used as 'entry level' in the same manner as a MB C or 3 series BMW is laughable but it is NOT because it is the Sonata in this case isn't a fine car. It is because it is a Hyundai. The same comment would apply for the Camry, Accord, Fusion or whatever - they, along with the Sonata are ALL mass marketed 'appliances' - something that the BMW 3 is decidedly not - despite being reasonably high volume.
And speaking of appliances the fact that the ES does so well, given what the car actually is, is yet another testimony for the importance of brand reputation,. brand recognition and the American consumer's sensitivity to both - and even another illustration why Hyundai will never get there as a 'luxury' brand.
Could Hyundai do what Lexus did? Sure they can - and they might - but NOT with Hyundai branded products at Hyundai dealerships.
I see sooooo many people on Edmunds bash the ES. What the heck is wrong with it? Its powerful, great on gas, reliable, and rides like its on a cloud. Its a little pricey for what you get and FWD but really IMO its everything a luxury sedan should be....
Probably the only reason I don't have one is I prefer a larger sedan so in 06 I purchased an Avalon over it and in '09 the Genesis won me over with its interior, the RWD layout, and offering a little more for my buck.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
that is certainly what the ads would have you believe but that is really based on the Mexican Fusion and is not something that holds true line wide - as you note.
Better? Guess so in your experience, that's fine, but, in fact, CR still shows even the Fusion lagging just a bit behind those perennial leaders, the Camcords despite the fact that both are 'new' models. Read the latest new Car issue. Ford, in particular, doing a better job in the same way that Hyundai is. Line wide, Ford (or Hyundai) vs. J2 though? Simply not there yet.
the same folks that would like us to believe that they really are 'enthusiasts' when, in fact, they tend to prefer the big floaty isolation chambers that the American car has historically been.
The fact that Toyota has understood this over the years is largely what has made it so successful, Hyundai, save for the 2 Genesis models, has pretty much done the same, in their efforts to follow in Toyota's tracks. And, I doubt very seriously that many of these self-proclaimed enthusiasts, ever drive in any manner that they could tell you whether the drive wheells were pulling or pushing.
No, the ES is NOT a Camry, Toyota (and Lexus) has made sure of that AND there is not a damn thing wrong with it.
I agree with Steve's response to the same post - there are ways to use the word 'ignorant', and then there are ways not to use it at all
People have tendencies to repeat things they have done before and they have a tendency to do what other people think they ought to do - but in neither case does that make them 'ignorant'
that's just it - entry in lux land IS NOT a function of volume. In fact the commonality that would come with high volume would serve to hurt any pretenses Hyundai (or anybody else) might have as a luxury brand. Therefore and on that basis, the ES hurts Lexus, the 3 BMW or even the Cs all hurt their brand's luxury' image not just because they are 'entry level' on the lower ends of the price spectrum but also because too many of them sold. Too attainable , if you will.
Mass market brandnames and luxury brandnames are therefore a contradiction in terms. When is there 'room' ? As soon as Hyundai gets the kind of unassailable reputation that the J3 mfgrs enjoyed not too long ago and then uses that to establish a proper (not mass market) product sold at proper 'high end' dealers.
this is the first I've heard of this and obviously a coupla steps in the right direction if any 'room' is to be found. Gotta keep those 'luxury' Genesis branded products and customers away from those mere Hyundai products & buyers - that's the kind of thing that works here in the good ole US of A! I actually suggested this early on, in this very forum - somebody listening? Nah, not likely.
Let's see... does every other player in the luxury market have an "unassailable reputation"? I think not. I don't think you can say that MB, for example, has an "unassailable reputation." Not for reliability anyway. Improving, yes. But with many recent warts. Does that mean MB does not have any "room" in the luxury market, in your opinion?
So the Genesis is a "mass market" product now? So, cars like the ES and 5 Series, which outsell the Genesis sedan, are not mass market, but the Genesis is?
As for the special "high end" dealerships you long for... since other luxury automakers don't sell their luxury vehicles at luxury-exclusive dealerships (examples: Nissan + Infiniti in same dealership; Smart + MB in same dealership; Lexus + Toyota at the same dealership, Mini Cooper + BMW in same dealership), yet seem to have room in the luxury market, why does Hyundai need to establish such dealerships to have room in the market in your eyes?
It won't take anything that drastic. It's happening now. Hyundai is determined to compete in each of their segments, and won't be denied. They'll keep improving quality and reliability, keep offering the best prices, the best warranties... whatever it takes. People aren't blind, they will start recognizing in ever-increasing numbers that Hyundai makes good cars. It isn't like selling hamburgers where market share changes weekly. People keep their cars from ~2-7 years, so it won't happen over night. When Hyundai's mainstream cars sell in Toyota numbers, the perception of their luxury cars will catch up with the great cars they are building now. Some day, you can brag "I drove Hyundai when Hyundai wasn't cool".
since we are talking about Hyundai being accepted as a new palyer in the so called luxury market, then we have to look at how this has been done sucessfully (and unsucessfully) in the past. When Honda and Toyota made the Acura and Lexus commitments circa 1990 - both mfgrs. I will tell you DID have unassailable reputations - so much so that the fact that the Lexus was related to Toyota or Acura to Honda was an asset. While the current Genesis offerings may be perfectly fine automobiles I don't believe you can say the same sort of thing about those products being related to Hyundai - at least not yet. Definitely part of the problem if we are looking for 'room'.
The primarily German brands are a bit different because their lux qualifications are in large part performance based - and they did invent the whole idea of a premium 'sports' sedan well before those Oriental latecomers even recognized the market. It was, after all Acura and later Lexus that kinda forced the Germans to clean up their act. To this day, I will tell you that a significant portion of BMW and MB fanboys still have a problem with the LS, never mind other 'pretenders' - and primarily from a performance point of view. .
As far as you last contentions, separate dealer locations have been demonstrated to be the fastest way to create the brand differentiation needed by the American consumer. If Hyundai chooses instead to create Genesis showrooms in their existing dealerships that could work too, although it should take longer. I am, however, in tjc78's camp on this one - there are literally thousands of vacant dealerships right now probably available for pennies on the dollar - a little renovation and what beeter way could we have to try to establish a Hyundai luxury brand?
you think maybe that they might have been concerned for their lives, if they disagreed with you - you were (apparently) driving!
Yes, we can look at what has been done in the past. But innovation is to be considered also. The most successful companies innovate for competitive advantage. When Honda started Acura, no Asian automaker had started a separate luxury brand before. That was innovation at work. Toyota and Nissan followed. When Hyundai entered the US luxury market over 20 years later, they decided to take a different approach from the J3, one that matched their goals and economic realities of the time. I don't think anyone can fairly say that approach has failed, and in fact there is much evidence to conclude it has succeeded brilliantly in terms of its primary objective: elevating the entire Hyundai brand, while creating a beachhead in the luxury market.
Hyundai may very well choose to branch out with a separate identity for their luxury vehicles in the future. The Genesis will no doubt be part of that. Our major difference of opinion is, I see the Genesis as a luxury vehicle right now. You do not, only because of the badge it has on its trunk. If Hyundai sells the Genesis in separate buildings in the future, it won't be any more a luxury vehicle in my eyes. But it will likely cost more than it does today. I'll take the current brand and dealership, and the lower price. I don't need leather couches and a different chrome badge on a car to tell me how luxurious the car is.
Top 3 Entry Premium Vehicle, Lincoln MKZ, Acura TSX, Cadillac CTS
Top 3 large cars, Mercury Montego, Buick Lucerne, and Ford 500.
Top 3 Large SUV's, Toyota Sequoia, GMC Yukon, Ford Expedition.
Top 3 Large Premium car, Cadillac DTS, Lexus LS 460, Lincoln TownCar
Top 3 Large Premium SUV, Lincoln Mark LT, Lincoln Navigator, Cadillac Escalade
Top 3 Midsize Car, Buick Lacrosse, Mercury Milan, Honda Accord
I could go on, but Click Here instead for the full report. These aren't ads, these are actual owners surveys that were filled out and sent in.
BTW in the top 3 compact SUV, the Hyundai Tucson is listed in 3rd. Hyundai Accent is 3rd in the sub compact list. Ford beat out the Toyota in the minivans, and notice the Camry is not one of the top 3 midsize cars, nor are the Lexus. This pretty much puts Ford in the top 3 of reliable cars.
Edit: one more thing I found. In ratings based on brand, only Lincoln scored 5 in all categories.
Belongs in a Ford fanboy forum, but of all these 'selections' are only 2 different cars, and/or 1 truck. Is JDP wonderful - but for Ford some money well spent, I guess. Read CR, they, at least, aren't in it for the money, and see if your results are the same. Where's the Fusion, it is what a number of these cars actually are
"Surprise: Hyundai proves its a master of luxury with Genesis": http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2008-10-30-hyundai-genesis-20- 09_N.htm
As for innovation... what other Asian automaker has used a V8 RWD luxury sedan under its own brand name to elevate the opinion of the brand in the US? A luxury car with a longer warranty than any other car in its class. And one that undercuts comparable cars by thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. If something has not been done before, it's innovative.
and all this you think is innovation? Sounds like marketing to me. Guess I'll need to look it up in Webster's!
No doubt the Gen a quite luxurious sedan BTW but from your article -
Easy on the knuckles, though. Is the 2009 Hyundai Genesis a Lexus, BMW or M-B? Probably not. Does it matter much? Probably not.
That the author would make that statement is part of the perception problems Hyundai has and the reason why it can't be considered among those other brands. The author seems to be excusing the Hyundai brandname, the way I read it .
May change, who knows, but for the time being.......
I'll save you the time and effort
innovate
from dictionary.com
–verb (used without object)
1.
to introduce something new; make changes in anything established.
–verb (used with object)
2.
to introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time: to innovate a computer operating system.
3.
Archaic . to alter.
from Merriam-Webster.com
transitive verb
1 : to introduce as or as if new
2 archaic : to effect a change in intransitive verb : to make changes : do something in a new way
Sounds like Hyundai might be just a little innovative with the Genesis.
And now we await your comments.
I stand by what I said
When you have to list a long set of rather meaningless qualifications, and/or point out something that is nothing more than a piece of paper, you have left the world of innovation and entered the often silly world of marketing.
huh? :confuse:
Would you care to elaborate/expand on what you actually mean with that statement? And what does it have to do with the definition of "innovate" which was kindly provided to you a few posts ago?
And just so we are all clear on the difference between innovation and marketing, add this the list of definitions above:
Main Entry: marketing
Function: noun
Date: 1561
1 a : the act or process of selling or purchasing in a market b : the process or technique of promoting, selling, and distributing a product or service
2 : an aggregate of functions involved in moving goods from producer to consumer
It would seem to me that you use marketing to sell innovation. The two are not interchangeable or as blurred together as you seem to imply, i.e. marketing is not innovation and innovation is not marketing, but they can work hand in hand. They are distinctly different concepts.
Genesis is better than most people need, and easily good enough for most of the rest of us.
Genesis' excellence is surprising, because usually a car company's first crack at a new segment is wanting. [Translation: Hyundai did something not normally done, even by the J3--see examples in article. Innovation at work?]
You can quibble with the timing — small cars and small engines are hot right now — but you can't argue much against the execution. [Well, some people can try to do that...]
• Ambiance. Trim, controls, gauges — elegantly done. Simple lines and curves. Nothing tortured. [Hmm, seems kinda... luxurious?]
• Persona. Genteel eagerness, backed up by a drivetrain and suspension that deliver.
•Smooth: Everything from the ride to the turn-signal lever.
•Seductive: Don't drive unless you intend to buy. [Oh... NOW we know why some posters here haven't driven the Genesis yet.]
Ignoring price, it's a credible contender. Considering price, there might not be another car that's such an all-around satisfier. [Ignoring price, a credible contender... i.e. even at thousands less than other luxury cars, it's a credible competitor to those cars.]
• Overall: Uncommonly good.
• Persona. Genteel eagerness, backed up by a drivetrain and suspension that deliver.
•Smooth: Everything from the ride to the turn-signal lever.
•Seductive: Don't drive unless you intend to buy. [Oh... NOW we know why some posters here haven't driven the Genesis yet.]
Ignoring price, it's a credible contender. Considering price, there might not be another car that's such an all-around satisfier. [Ignoring price, a credible contender... i.e. even at thousands less than other luxury cars, it's a credible competitor to those cars.]
• Overall: Uncommonly good.
I think only a few hardcore car enthusiasts would disagree.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100429/CARNEWS/100429801
1. BMW $21.82 -- (25)
2. Toyota $21.77 -- (26)
3. Honda $14.30 -- (46)
4. Mercedes $13.74 -- (53)
5. Porsche $12.02 -- (65)
6. Nissan $8.61 -- (86)
7. Ford $7.04 -- *
8. VW $6.99 -- *
9. Audi $3.62 -- *
10. Renault $3.26
that the way may open for a 'luxury' Hyundai - or a luxury Hyundai brand. For all the screaming that some of you do about how Hyundai is so well thought of outside this country or wherever (as if it mattered) , this is all apparently not the case. Almost all the 'players' are there - but no Hyundai.
The point being - Hyundai HAS TO improve its brand rep if it ever is going to make an impact in the so called luxury market.
But my neighbors have BMW's, all delicious cars to drive, and all requiring lots of little tweaks, all the time, and all expensive little tweaks after 50 K miles. PLUS, I can't stand the interior look of BMW's, reminding me of 1985 the moment I sit in one. The back seats are cramped in the 5 series,(really unforgiveable).
Of course Hyundai will make it, if they follow through. All our discussion is really just for the sake of the mental exercise. I bought one, getting a lot of luxury in a new car at a low price, and I am betting they will follow through. VW did NOT follow through with the Phaeton, and they were bitten in the butt in the USA, but they did with the Passat, Jetta, and Golf/Rabbit. Clearly, they are picking their battles. (My daughter has my '07 Passat, and it's been SUPER reliable).
Lexus has NO DOUBT improved the quality of German cars for us, as has Infiniti and Acura. If Hyundai does a good job then all of us are going to benefit, and those of us who bought the cars will look smart for seeing it early. Those people who bought Phaeton's new are likely bitter they got no panache, and a bellyful of repairs for their effort. Heck, I bought one used, with CPO, and dumped it before the warranty ran out because it was in the shop twice a month. BMW has a MUCH WORSE THAN AVERAGE reliability rating with the 3.35, 5 series, and 7 series. I don't get it. Driving one must be a religious experience that I am too dumb to get on my test drives.
Excellent post, excellent points from someone who is as unbiased as can be.
I bought a Hyundai (Sonata) 5 years ago because I could clearly see what Hyundai was attempting to do at that time. I try my best not to be biased, but it's hard not to be when your car is going on 5 years and 50K miles without spending a penny on the car. When I buy my next car, I'll do my best to throw out brand and look at 4-5 cars that suit my requirements, and drive away in the winner. Reliability tops my list, followed by value and quality.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/09/18/478180.html
Yes, in the 2009 Best Global Brands survey by BusinessWeek / Interbrand, Hyundai was 8th overall for automotive brands, topping (notably, for this discussion), Porsche, Ferrari, and Lexus. And Nissan / Infiniti, which didn't make the top 11. Not to mention GM (including Cadillac).
http://blog.caranddriver.com/beijing-2010-the-new-2011-hyundai-accent-hides-in-p- lain-sight/
Anyway, the Verna/Accent, although a sharp-looking little number IMO, is hardly a luxury car, is it?
Brand value, in this article, a reflection of both better brand reputation as well as sales volume and not necessarily anything to do with specific current products made by Hyundai (or anybody else). It's not like Hyundai is having any problems sellings its cars. As such, only an indicator that Hyundai still has a way to go reputation wise, which is my point.
Since reliability, though, seems to be your primary motivation I would suggest to you two things:
1) there do remain better choices than (most) Hyundai products in that regard and,
2) product reliability has historically meant little to those in the market for true luxury cars.
2) product reliability has historically meant little to those in the market for true luxury cars.
I don't know about you all, but, when I buy a car, I want one that is reliable. Ever since I bought my first foreign car (a 1999 Kia Sephia) I have had reliable cars. Count them: 1) 1999 Kia Sephia 2) 2001 Kia Sportage 4 X 4 3) 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS.
All were reliable, the '01 Sportage 4 X 4 did strand me once while in Respiratory Therapy college. It was near Lebanon, MO. It was cold outside, about 40 degrees maximum. I first noticed the headlights dim and the stereo funkified for a while like a Dennis Rodman image in my mind. I knew something was up.
As I started to go towards the Lake of the Ozarks, the small SUV just died like it was running out of gas. It was a dead alternator. Whoa. Life came to a standstill immediately.
I was in my scrubs and my lab coat with bookbag full of medical books with me. I dude in an old 70's GM station wagon pulled alongside me.
"Need a ride?"
"Yep".
He was a nice guy-he told me of a local mechanic and I found that mechanic. The alternator was $330, though! Yikes. But do I hold this against Kia Motors of South Korea? Of course not. That was the only time a Kia product stranded me.
The car did have about 88,000 miles on it at that time. If you find that odd, please reply back to this e-mail and don't hold back. Hit me with it!
The 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is reliable as a Chow Chow guarding her home. And that, my car-crazy friends, is very...very reliable.
Here she is.
Let someone just attempt to break in to this house, Dad. I'll chew them up like Gary Payton chewing up John Stockton in SLC. No one has ever played the guard position like GP. No one. No one, not even MJ, can play defense like GP...and shoot the hell out of the basket at the same time.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Lost Wages? They've got nuthin' on the injustice of that Super Bowl. Every time the Seattle Seahawks tried to do something honest and correct, the stupid bought-off ref's called a non-existent foul. Talk ta me about rambling on only after you watch that video and get some truth, brother. What a disgrace to the NFL, sports and those that claim they know anything about them.
It shows me that money does rule professional sports fully and completely. What a bunch of immoral morons. If you even try to question what I'm typing here, think about this for a minute. All the ref's that covered Super Bowl 40 were told by the NFL front office that they could never ever again referee another Super Bowl.
If the ref's were honest in Super Bowl 40 the score would have been something like this. Seattle 31, Pittsburgh 20.
As to the automotive comment I made, re-consider this comment and do get back ta me.
2) product reliability has historically meant little to those in the market for true luxury cars.
Now, I don't know about you. You are you. I am me. But I would never buy any kind of car, big or little, luxury-driven or not, that was unreliable. Even the slightest bit unreliable.
Ever wonder why you can't understand the Donald Trump types? Warren Buffet is too smart for that. It's because Donald Trump would buy a Cadidillac because it's a luxury vehicle. Not because it's truly a reliable vehicle. Just because it looks a certain dorky kind of way.
Understand why anyone would do that? Either do I. But that's luxo-vehicle types. They care more about the image of a rig than the car itself. What can we do about it? Nothing. It's the crazy world we call home, bro.
Now ya got me. Because there's always going to be people we can't understand. That's OK. They wouldn't understand me, either. And I don't think I would even start ta question their intelligence on that particular subject even one little tiny iota.
Now go do the right thing, Laura Schlesinger.
Buy yourself a 2008 and on Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. You'll be a happy camper for life with Mitsubishi products. :shades:
Laura Schlesigner probably drives a Lexus SUV.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Then I would suggest that from a luxury perspective, you have limited your choices to 2 brands, Lexus or Infiniti, and that you also ought to consider Acura.
You really think that all those folks plopping down those big bucks on those high end German sedans don't do so with the understanding that, by definition, cars of that genre are generally LESS reliable than had they gone out and bought something less?
They are buying a car, for what it is and what it can do, and yes they are buying a badge- but they are not buying refrigerators.
Huh??? Why do you suppose Hyundai's brand value has increased so much in recent years? Because they make bad products? No. Brand value is directly related (although not exclusively related) to product quality, and the marketplace's perception of those products.
Anyway, it's kind of a moot point, isn't it, since Hyundai's brand value already exceeds that of well-established luxury brands such as Lexus, Infiniti, and Porsche (per the BusinessWeek/Interbrand study), and you have you have stated that the way may be open for a "luxury" Hyundai.
Hyundai then is going to have to get rid of most of their models below the Azera and either downgrade/integrate them into the Kia brand, either by expanding Kia models or getting rid of some all ready existing Kia models and making for instance, the Kia Sonata, Kia Elantra, Kia Tiburon, etc etc!
There is no way Hyundai is going to become a luxury division in their current models/structure as a whole! But, I think a lot is going to be determine how well the Equus sells here!