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You may not care, I may not care.... however, you can't tell me that a rather large percentage of people do. How else can you explain the large percentage of 20 something females driving 3 series BMWs. Are they all driving them because of their "driving experience". I don't think so.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I can't control how others perceive cars, or whether they do their homework or just guess about things. I've driven a lot of nice cars, and Genesis is right there with them. What someone thinks due to a lack of knowledge makes exactly zero difference to me. I think we're on the same page if not the same paragraph.
Yes
I noticed many people oohing and ahhing over the Genesis--and in the last auto show, the Equus. They seemed to think the cars were pretty "special."
Maybe so... how many of them (with the means to do so) have "put their money where their mouth is" and bought one?
The Lexus ES350 sold more than 48,000 units last year. Its priced similarly to the Genesis and aside from its pillow soft ride is probably an inferior car to the Genesis. (FWIW I cross-shopped the ES) Please explain to me why it more than doubled the Genesis sedan totals?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Yes we are.... remember I own a Genesis. Its a great car, I am not satisfied with the ride (a preference thing more than anything) but otherwise I have no complaints.
I am talking perceptions and pointing out reasons why I feel Hyundai isn't ready for the lux market, no matter how good the cars may be.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
granted YOU can't. BUT you could, at least concede what Hyundai's perception problems are and how that effects the company's luxury aspirations. You may be right and everybody else may be wrong (as you seem to contend) but that's hardly the point.
as I have pointed out many times, it wouldn't have had to be this way if Hyundai had the same good brand perceptions that Honda and Toyota did when they had all those spiffy new dealerships built FOR THEM by those interested in selling the product and collect some rather stiff franchise fees to boot. Think Toyota, for example, actually MADE money establishing Lexus.
It does make some sense to put the cart in front of the horse establishing the car first and then hoping I guess that the customer can disassociate the new brand "Genesis' from Hyundai. Can't see any way, that a more concerted effort (the Equus) has any chance at all without that new brand and new dealership. Hyundai had better plan on free service pickup and delivery, because somebody spending 50 or $60k on a car is not going to want to even be in the same zipcode as a traditional Hyundai dealer.
you are probably not going to even get a response on that one in this land of H fanboys - but the answer is obvious and would have to recognize what the freight is still on the Hyundai brandname and also the importance of a luxury brandname on a decidedly more pedestrian offering. They won't acknowledge this but people buy the ES because it is a Lexus, and they don't buy the Genesis because it is a Hyundai - regardless of the relative qualities of each offering.
I've said before that I am well aware there are many brand-conscious people out there. Many, but not all. From what I understand, a "room" doesn't have to include all people... just some.
Well, in the US, for the Equus... none to date. As you know, quite a few people--including you--have "put their money where their mouth is" and bought a Genesis sedan.
Why does it matter to you, or to this discussion, that the well-established Lexus ES outsold the Genesis sedan last year? Where is it written that in order for Hyundai to carve out room in the luxury market, it must outsell every car that is priced in the same ballpark--even a FWD luxury pretender like the ES? One big thing the ES has going for it, for mass market appeal, is FWD. Many non-enthusiasts prefer FWD. Also, many people happen to like the squishy ride quality of Toyotas and Lexii, including the ES. Is the Accord a bad car because the Camry outsold it last year? How about the Fusion--Camry killed that in sales. Many would say (me included) that the 2011 Sonata is superior to the Camry--but the Camry still sells more copies.
I guess if it's important to you to drive a car that is tops in sales, then comparing Genesis sales to the likes of luxury wanna-be's like the ES, or even the Avalon, Maxima, and Taurus is important. But since you drive a Genesis, I expect that isn't too important to you. Nor to me.
Most definitely did, how a particular Toyota branded model and/or a particular Nissan branded model are perceived OVERSEAS has nothing to do with the Badge-conscious AMERICAN consumer. You see, it's all about what's in a name IN THIS COUNTRY, and less to do with the cars themselves.
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Not quite.
The issue is what constitutes a luxury vehicle, period (and besides, didn't you already acknowledge that the Phaeton was a luxury vehicle?; the fact that it didn't sell well in the US being another issue.).
It seems a bit silly to say that someone who imports and drives a Toyota Celsior isn't driving a luxury vehicle, despite it being pretty much identical to the Lexus LS; or to say that it becomes a luxury vehicle if one just changed the badging from Toyota to Lexus (along the same lines, it would seem silly to think that a European driving an Accord could make his/her Accord a "luxury" vehicle by switching the badging from Honda to Acura).
I don't. The whole thing about luxury is the total package. Its the car, the service, the dealership experience, and unfortunately the badge. If someone sees you pull up in an ES350 or a Genesis, which one does the majority of the population think is a:) more expensive and/or b: more luxurious? That is what a luxury name and image suggest.
********
One could pick up a Canali tux at one of the better Marshalls or TJ Maxx - does the fact that it was purchased from a discounter make the Canali tux not a luxury garment?
Along those same lines, Costco sells $60K pearl necklaces; I guess according to you, the $60K necklace isn't a luxury item since it is being sold in a rather spartan retail environment.
Costco also sells watches by Cartier, Baume & Mercier, Bedat and Chopard; I guess those aren't "luxury" watches.
And who really cares what the majority of the population thinks?
The majority of the pop. thinks that Bose is a premium/hi-fi speaker/sound equipment brand/manufacturer (due to the eponymous advertising) when pretty much all audiophiles think it is not even mid-fi, much less hi-fi.
Along the same lines, the majority of auto enthusiasts (who aren't just ignorant badge wh*res) would take the RWD Genesis in a heartbeat over the floaty, bland FWD ES.
And even the majority of the general public would consider the Equus to be more of a luxury vehicle than the Lexus HS or CT (or the Acura CSX, BMW 1 Series, Mercedes A or B Class, etc.).
*******
Uhh, no.
Not only are exotic/supercar manufacturers such as Ferrari and Lambo on a totally different plane than mainstream luxury brands like BMW and Audi, brands like Rolls Royce and Bentley are on a different level as well (there's a reason why Mercedes launched Maybach to compete against Rolls and Bentley).
Also, the term "tier 1 luxury" is commonly used in the auto industry (Rolls and Bentley would actually be above tier 1) to refer to brands such as Mercedes and BMW.
Even Acura/Honda executives have stated that they haven't achieved tier 1 status.
I also hear there are people living in East Texas who still think the War of Yankee Aggression is still going on. Yes, many people are slow to catch up with the times, to learn, to expand their horizons beyond their comfortable little worlds of Name Brands.
IMO the ES outsold the Gen (in its third year BTW) is simply because of the Lexus name (in 2007 it sold nearly 90K units). It doesn't matter to me, its just for the discussion purposes and why Hyundai doesn't have a good enough brand recognition yet to be in the luxury market.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Costco also sells watches by Cartier, Baume & Mercier, Bedat and Chopard; I guess those aren't "luxury" watches.
A discount store selling a premium item is a lot different than a budget manufacturer selling a premium item. If all of sudden Timex started selling solid gold and diamond watches at 2/3 the price of a Cartier do you think Cartier would be scared?
Along the same lines, the majority of auto enthusiasts (who aren't just ignorant badge wh*res) would take the RWD Genesis in a heartbeat over the floaty, bland FWD ES.
Probably true (I did) although the majority of car buyer are not enthusiasts and most manufacturers would rather be selling to a majority than a minority. I personally believe there are plenty of "badge wh*res". The ES, TSX, and 1 series prove that.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Well I guess you have a point. The Rolls, Bentleys, and the Exotics are in a league of there own. However, those brands really aren't what we are comparing here.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
If your logic is sound, then we must also say that Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda et. al. don't have good enough brand recognition to be in the mid-sized family sedan market, since the Toyota Camry outsells all of them.
IMO there is a difference between being IN a market and being the SALES VOLUME LEADER in a market.
You are also conveniently forgetting about the cars that people like fintail and I believe are the Genesis' closest competitors--the GS and M. Genesis outsells both of them handily. That brand recognition and luxury brand cache (ala "it'll sell even if it's $20k more") doesn't help much there, does it.
One time I went out to Katmai (where the bears are) and put my point and shoot camera on a tripod on the viewing platform next to the pros with their Nikons with zoom lenses that cost more than my car. Sort of fun. :-) Maybe I'll get a Rolex band for my Timex next.
And one of these days, I'll lose a couple of inches on my waist so I can wear my 30 year old Coach belt again too.
I disagree there. They are the closest cars to the Genesis in terms of size, power, and drive wheels. However, I believe the competitors of the Genesis are the Maxima, Avalon, ES, TL and G. I am a firm believer that people shop by price point.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I think it's more common to shop for a cars that are relatively comparable in size and utility, and look for the best value within those parameters. So some people might compare the Genesis 3.8 to the Maxima and Avalon. But the ES, TL and G are smaller than the Genesis inside. And people looking for a powerful (ala V8) sedan with lots of luxury will certainly not look at the likes of the Maxima and Avalon and ES, but look at the Genesis 4.6, M, GS, LS, etc. What they might do, if they shop by price, is compare the loaded Genesis 4.6 to the base M and GS V6s.
I agree that Hyundai has perception problems, but for no valid reason.
Perceptions of Hyundai cars still lag behind the vast improvements they have made in the past 10 years. Hyundai's aspirations are commendable. Every company must aspire to excellence. Some do and fail, some do and succeed. I suspect Hyundai will get there, just as Samsung and LG came out of nowhere and knocked off Sony and Mitsubishi in the electronics market. The Koreans have fire in their bellies to out compete Japan, and I wouldn't bet against them. It took Toyota and Honda 40 years to get where thay are. Give Hyundai 5 more years and let's talk again.
Couldn't agree more. For the past 25 years, audiophiles have been saying: "No highs. No lows. Must be Bose."
Along the same lines, the majority of auto enthusiasts (who aren't just ignorant badge wh*res) would take the RWD Genesis in a heartbeat over the floaty, bland FWD ES.
Again, I agree, & I should know because my wife drives (& loves) an '07 ES 350. It's a nose-heavy, curve-hating boulevard cruiser, albeit with the best seats I've ever encountered in an Asian car. (I think that the Euro brands do a better job, overall, with seating comfort.) I won't drive it.
But if you live in one of the colder, snowier parts of the country, you're almost certainly comparing the RWD Gen to the new 2011 AWD Infiniti M37x - not to the ES. In this case, which car would you choose?
So if you slap a Lexus badge on a Toyota, Charge $10K more, people will buy it too. Its the same car, maybe better seats, a different interior, but its still the same car.
Lets face it, people are sheep, they see a Lexus, or MB, or BMW and think ooh rich person, which is why a lot of people buy the ES and C class cars, for the perception that they have money. It doesn't mean they are a smart buyer, if they were a smart buyer, they would cross shop, find a car with similar features, and buy the car that costs less money for the same features. That is why I went for the Veracruz, it had everything Lexus had to offer, for $10K less, heck it even looked like the Lexus. Hyundai is also in the top ten for reliability, in fact last year it took the #3 spot for most reliability.
I always thought Toyota made good cars, at least they are reliable, but after owning a Prius and a Camry, the only thing they have is reliability, they sure don't have creature comfort, or quality materials in them, in fact I was sorely disappointed after one week of owning the Camry after finding so many things in it that was just plain cheap, especially after having the Veracruz for a while. Now that I have a Ford Fusion, it is far superior to the Camry in every respect.
Yet people still flock to the Camry, so what does that tell you? It means brand is everything, You can slap a Mercedes badge on a pig, charge 10 grand for it, and people will buy it.
If I wanted to spend more money a month on a car payment, instead of spending less by getting the Fusion, I would be driving a Genesis right now instead. Why? Because I believe Hyundai makes GOOD cars, Equal to some, More reliable than others, and if it has a H on its trunk I really couldn't care.
Wow... that is exactly what I have been saying!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
When I see someone driving a Genesis, I say "Ooh, smart person"...
...or at least an independent thinker.
300/Charger and the G8 (if there are any left).
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I borrow my neighbor's riding mower occasionally. It's an old department store brand, about 25 years old. It's all MTD underneath the paint. Whenever something breaks, you can look up the schematics online and figure out where something fits.
And it doesn't matter if the manual you find is 25 years old or last week's version. :P
such is the power of brand perceptions - while the ES is (almost) mechanically identical to the top line Camry (as it always has been), it is, in fact different enough - eg fit/finish and even reliability primarily because it is assembled in Japan - unlike the Camry. I doubt very seriously that of all those 50000 ES buyers that many think they are buying a Camry or even a Toyota. Hyundai, if and when they become a strong enough brand to ever establish their own luxury division (and something they WILL have to do if they ever expect to be a player in that market segment) would logically do the same thing with the Azera and the Veracruz.
The ES250 (?) , if I recall correctly, was marketed almost immediately after the LS (and Lexus) was introduced. The fact that it succeeded is a testimony to the power of branding, the stellar reputation of Toyota at the time, the qualities of the LS, and Toyota's understanding of the American consumer - remembering also that it was Honda that showed the way.
You cannot seriously compare the MGM to the likes of the Genesis sedan... and M, and GS, and... . It's from a whole 'nuther world--in which Ronald Reagan (maybe Jimmy Carter?) was president. They make nice police cruisers, though.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
But it would be as (in)appropriate to compare one of them to the Genesis as comparing to the Avenger.
The other day I looked at an older Camry and was surprised at how well built it was, the material quality was much better than what they are putting in them now, I thought I remembered they were well made, which is why I was sorely disappointed in the one I bought.
OTOH lets compare a Ford Fusion Sport to the Lincoln MKZ, Fords Luxury line. Basically they are identical cars drivetrain and all. Interior wise, the Lincoln is setup a bit different, but the only real differences that I could see, it had Homelink in the visor, and the seat leather was of higher quality. The sound system is THX certified, but others have noted the Sony system in the Fusion actually sounds better. Unlike Toyota/Lexus, at least Ford puts quality into their non luxury brands.
It does go to show that people buy based on the name, I know a few buyers walked away from a Fusion after a test drive because the ride was too "stiff", but otherwise liked the car. Those buyers went to Toyota, but a lot of Toyota buyers did go to Ford. So Why can't the same happen with Hyundai? I think once people get past the stink from the early 90's that Hyundai was known for and come to realize, this is not the same car company, you will be seeing more buyers for their highline cars.
calling Lincoln a luxury line an interesting contention simply because there are no vehicles left in the line that aren't Ford rebadges. I would go even one step further and tell you that IMO the Lincoln 'dealers' are worst of all choices. Caddy does a bit better job staying above the fray because there are at least a coupla (CTS and STS) that are unique to Cadillac, and I guess their dealerships are generally maintained to a higher standard. Lincoln is still a 'luxury' brand IMO but is also one without any true 'luxury' products and is more known for outrageous depreciation than about anything else.
I will be one of the first to agree that Hyundai has come a long way in a relatively short time. But that stink you mention of 15-20 years ago is really what this forum is about. Hyundai is changing a lot faster than the consumer is, IMO. How the brand is perceived and accepted is everything when it comes to success selling vehicles that cater to the 'luxury' portion of the market.
Just be able to build a car like the Gen sedan, or even the Equus is plainly not enough, there are many many other things that primarily have to do with Hyundai's reputation that also need to be 'fixed'.
May not take that long - given Toyota's recent problems and how fast the auto industry is moving these days.
And I can tell you from personal experience that the Koreans have had a 'fire in their bellies' for 30+ years and are one of the few nationalities I've ever run across that look at their success with a patriotic obsession. The Americans and the Japanese were both like that once too - until success spoiled them. You have to wonder how long it'll take for S.Korea to get spoiled? :sick:
Consider that a large number of buyers in the luxury market are now entering their 30s. They were kids 15-20 years ago. They are probably Hyundai's best hope for their luxury offerings--those who aren't a prisoner to brand worship, anyway. Also those older buyers (like me) who realize that times change, companies change, and can look past the past to what is reality in the present. Also those millions of buyers who have experience with Hyundai vehicles in the past 10 years or so and have a positive opinion of the brand.
If any company is concerned about a "stink" affecting sales, it would be Toyota/Lexus. People tend to remember what happened in the past week or month better than what happened 15-20 years ago.
Just be able to build a car like the Gen sedan, or even the Equus is plainly not enough, there are many many other things that primarily have to do with Hyundai's reputation that also need to be 'fixed'.
Agreed again.. RE.. Hyundai... This kind of reminds me of when Oldsmobile tried to go upscale/luxury with the $32k MSRP Aurora V8 in 1995 (based on Caddy platform and based on Caddy V8) They even gave the Aurora the same 4yr 50k Caddy warranty. It never really worked in the end, sales weren't what they hoped. Hopefully the Genesis and Equus work out better.
True, but I wouldn't count on that. Didn't last month Toyota just have one of their best sales months in their history or something like that?
right now that is true - but think back to earlier Infiniti badged products - wasn't it products that were rebadges like the G20, I30 as well as Nissan's more pedestrian brand rep that hampered Infiniti's early successes. But all mfgrs rebadge to some degree, it really gets to be a question of scope and how that effects brand reputation. Cars like the ES, the TSX, the 1s, the Cs are all supposedly all 'entry level' and they all brand image to some degree. The Gen Coupe may be a perfectly fine rice rocket or pony car - but does nothing but hurt any ambitions that Hyundai might have in getting accepted as a luxury brand - it shouldn't be called a Genesis at all
yeah, they are doing some uncharacteristically strong marketing and discounting PLUS I think there is the beginning of a consumer backllash, folks that understand that a few hundred UA reports on several million cars 'recalled' is kinda inconsequential and even rebel more when these stories come out about Prius drivers looking for a hand out. :mad:
That said, however, Toyota's initial responses to what I believe to be computer problems has been less than awe inspiring.