Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

captain2

You would have had a point, if the coupe was supposed to be a luxury vehicle
but that is the point- if this forum is supposed to be about Hyundai being a luxury mfgr - then how is making things like the pony car competitive Coupe helping that image?
Perceived 'Luxury' mfgrs that make cheaper cars will almost always hurt those 'luxury' perceptions.

fintail

Depends on the W210. The AMG cars are known to be very solid, with only a handful of real issues - for such a complex car of that era, not surprising. Many enthusiasts think of them as better built than what replaced them.

Are you simply googling and copying and pasting information? W210 E320 CDi was never sold in NA. Are you only on this forum to defend the honor and purity of the swoopy H? Talk about being a "fool"... :P

What do you drive, anyway?

I see plenty of early W210s still on the road...not so many H from that time period. I bet early W210 survival rates are higher than 1996 H survival rates, even with the myraid of early issues. If we all drove what CR rates favorably, the roads would be very boring.

stever

I think a lot of us equate luxury with a soft living room ride. A firm sporty ride would be something I would generally associate with a BMW (a "driver's car") instead of a comparably priced Mercedes. I mean, do that many Bentley owners go to the track? If so, they aren't getting much press.

btw, it's still a bit too snarky in here. Calling each other names discourages lurkers to post.

backy

Steve, fyi it doesn't just discourage lurkers to post. It's hard to post an opinion in here w/o having your reading skills challenged or otherwise being belittled. Maybe it has to do with those who don't believe Hyundai has carved any room in the luxury market running out of factual ammunition. The Genesis' "unsettled" suspension was taken care of for 2010, and the Equus won't have the hood ornament when it comes ashore. Other than the fact that the Genesis doesn't have the badge that some people would like to see on it (quickly remedied with a few bucks and a few minutes shopping on eBay), what else is there?

smarty666

couldn't agree with you more, that is something I like with the luxury automakers in this country; what ever you want you can find it; if you want a sport enthusiast/performance/handling car, I'd be the first person to tell you to go get a BMW or Infiniti! if you want a super uber comfort luxury ride inside/outside that babies you, I'd tell you to go get a Lexus or Mercedes!

If you want something that is a bit more well rounded in all categories and combines a little bit of the things of the luxury extremes, I'd tell you to go get a Acura (if you can live with the current butt ugly styling), Audi, or Cadillac!

It is nice in the luxury segment to have these choices; like it has been said on here time and time again, every body perception of luxury is different and people are looking for different things when shopping for luxury cars; after test driving the Genesis last year I personally feel the vehicle would cater more to the Lexus and Mercedes buyers based on its driving dynamics, and there is nothing wrong with that! its nice for luxury car buyers to have cheaper alternatives which Hyundai is now providing!

just my two cents!

tjc78

after test driving the Genesis last year I personally feel the vehicle would cater more to the Lexus and Mercedes buyers based on its driving dynamics,

Maybe after three Toyotas (00 Solara, 03 and 06 Avalons) and having ridden and/or driven just about every Lexus except the IS I just cannot see any Lexus owner liking the ride in the Genesis (unless they hate the Lexus ride). The Genesis does not have the plush, soft, and isolating ride of most Lexus vehicles.

smarty666

well I would agree with you on that but I test drove a 2009 and apparently, as backy confirmed, the 2010 suspension was supposedly tweaked or changed because the unsettle ride of the Genesis was a major complaint I read time and time again from professional reviewers who test drove it!

I obviously haven't test drove a 2010 so I can't comment on how much the suspension and ride might have changed with the Genesis!

acdii

You missed the point. Sure they modified the car, but still use the base 3.8L V6 internals, stitched the body for rigidity, and tweaked some suspension components, and is doing some damn fine racing with the car. An R-type Coupe is an excellent platform to race with, without modifications, and with some minor modifications is a very fine racer. Lets put it this way, you claimed Hyundai has not made a performance car, yet here is a car that is a performance car, and with a few modifications has become a VERY good performance car.

in July 2009, Millen and the Genesis Coupe set a new record for two-wheel drive production-based cars at Pikes Peak.

This is no different than taking an RX7 and modifying it, which also made a damned fine racer and took several first place trophies in autocross events.

captain2

didn't miss the point at all - your Millen modified Gen Coupe is about as close to a school bus as it is to anything that Hyundai actually produces and to use such a vehicle as an example of sports cars that Hyundai is capable of producing is beyond misleading. It's silly...

captain2

and PS - I am not the one who made any claim about Hyundai not making a performance car - but if you can't handle the truth as Nicholson once said . Because otherwise I will certainly challenge you to name even one EVER , My God, you would have thought that could've have produced something (or anything), in 25 years or so that could even arguably qualify. And BTW, candidates do have to be something that was sold to the public and was actually made by Hyundai.
BTW Those successful Rx7s you mention (or FTM the 370s from Nissan etc ) aren't related to anything their perspective mfgrs. can do either.

I know, I know - a revelation - it had to be that overstyled rice rocket, the Scoupe, one of the really really fine :sick: cars that Hyundai is still trying to live down, that was not a rocket at all - just a POC.

tuborgp1

Boy I love this forum. Great to see the BMW, Lexus and Mercedes crowd fighting to defend their luxury car turf against my 4.6 Genesis. Just convinces me even more it is the bargain it is acclaimed to be. $20K more for how much more car? Thank you guys keep it up. Wonder how a Maxima/Avalon fairs would fair in this debate?

captain2

Wonder how a Maxima/Avalon fairs would fair in this debate?
apples to apples - quite well IMO . Using my Avalon as an example, it is more economical, more powerful (almost will keep up with your 4.6) , has a far superior (softer) ride to a correspondent Gen 3.8 and pending resolution of the whole UA thing -a likely a lower cost of operation.
And they do have something else in common (along with the Max) none of the three are 'luxury' cars despite all the bling, bauble and beads.

tjc78

I almost don't know why I am going to even say this... however IMO after owning both a current gen Avalon and a Gen 3.8 can tell you the cars are very evenly matched. Not to get into a pissing contest, but here is how they stack up since someone asked...

Ride - Avalon
Power - Even
Interior - Genesis (much better materials)
Handling - Genesis (RWD/firmer)
Refinement - Avalon (didn't realize how good Toyota's 2GR was until I no longer had it)
FE- Avalon by one MPG overall in my driving
Comfort - Tie (rear seat would go to Avalon having reclining seats and flat floor)
Amenities - Tie (both cars are very well equipped and offer things the other doesn't)
Resale - unknown at this point probably even at the moment due to Yota's problems

I have to say if you must have RWD and want crisper handling go for the Genesis, OTOH if your primary objective is a comfortable highway cruiser go for the Avalon.

backy

Differences:

* Genesis is RWD with available V8. Avalon and Maxima are FWD V6 only. Thus they are more similar to FWD family cars like Camry and Altima than a luxury car. In fact, they share powertrains with their lesser siblings.
* Genesis has superior handling to Avalon--maybe Maxima although Maxima is more a driver's car than Avalon.
* Genesis is equipped like a luxury car, with leather interior standard. Leather is optional on Avalon and Maxima.

tjc78

In fact, they share powertrains with their lesser siblings.

Last I checked Hyundai puts the 3.8 in the Veracruz and Azera....

backy

With higher hp and a different transmission in the Genesis. And last I checked, Hyundai had not put the Tau V8 into the Veracruz or Azera.

tjc78

But they did in the Kia Borrego.....

backy

Yep, trucks need a V8 too, just like luxury cars. Or would it have been a better business decision for Hyundai/Kia to develop a different V8 for their big rigs?

tjc78

Or would it have been a better business decision for Hyundai/Kia to develop a different V8 for their big rigs?

Of course not! I just was pointing out that the Genesis's powertrains are not exclusive as you made them out to be!

bobad

you want to contend that the Genesis has been more reliable (to this point) than some of those German sedans, that is probably true - but should'nt it be - it is nowhere near as sophisticated.

True sophistication incorporates quality and reliability.

"Sophistication" in the electronics shouldn't cause the engine to throw a rod or the transmission to fail.

captain2

Genesis is RWD with available V8. Avalon and Maxima are FWD V6 only. Thus they are more similar to FWD family cars like Camry and Altima than a luxury car. In fact, they share powertrains with their lesser siblings.
although it is certainly not fashionable these days (and we must be fashionable, mustn't we?) there is a lot that can be said to the point that RWD (in combination with torquey V8s is a DISADVANTAGE. And one trip on some snow packed roads will tell you why.
Lastly FWD allows a much more space efficient layout, the interior room in the Av is bigger than the Gen especially relative to its exterior dimensions and especially in the rear seat where its not even close.
The Av BTW preceded the Camry by 2 years, and is a substantially larger car. It is the Camry that shares things (drivetrain) with the Avalon, not the other way around. The Maxima OTH at least in its latest rendtion now larger than the Altima and much much nicer interior fit and finish - a Nissan failing for years.

backy

I never said they are "exclusive". Just like other luxury car makers use their V8s in both cars and trucks/SUVs. What I pointed out is that upscale family cars like the Avalon and Maxima are V6 only, while the Genesis follows the path of luxury cars like the 5 Series, E Class, GS, and M by offering both V6 and V8 engines, with RWD.

backy

Yes, FWD is more space efficient than RWD. Yes, FWD has some advantage to RWD on ice (although with modern slip-control and winter tires, RWD is perfectly capable of handling winter conditions).

What does space efficiency of a powertrain have to do with whether a car is a luxury car or not? Are you going to recommend to BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar etc. that they ditch RWD in their luxury cars because it is more space efficient than FWD? Good luck on that.

Also, I don't see a big difference between Camry sharing things with the Avalon or Avalon sharing things with Camry. They are still more alike than, say, an Avalon is to the GS or LS.

captain2

Sophistication" in the electronics shouldn't cause the engine to throw a rod or the transmission to fail.
and it generally doesn't. Since your implication seems to be that these German cars are having mechanical issues like this - I'll ask you for your source. :confuse: Benz and BMW engines are among the very best (and most durable engines of their respective types - I don't think you can find any substantial evidence to the contrary.
Reliability is somewhat of a secondary consideration for the true luxury buyer, else they would lay off the whole 'sports sedan' qualities of what they bought and buy a Lexus instead.

captain2

RWD on ice (although with modern slip-control and winter tires, RWD is perfectly capable of handling winter conditions).
TC and/or SC does NOT make any vehicle more capable' of handling ice. (or snowpack) or anything else. A common misconception.

reminds me of a drive in Northern NH awhile back, on some back snow covered roads. Literally passed several RWD (and expensive) German and Japanese sedans grouped at the bottom of a small hill. They were stuck because the car didn't think there was enough traction and nor could they maintain momentum enough because the car didn't think it was stable enough. Me? I was driving a cheap FWD rental (G6) without your fancy 'safety systems' and had no trouble at all.
You can talk all you want about TC and or SC, but both will tend to hurt a driver's ability to get where he wants to go in certain road conditions. What makes a FWD layout better in cases llike this though is not any BS safety system or electronic nanny but the simple fact that 60% or so of the vehicles weight is over the drive wheels. Same could have be said a number of years ago for a wonderful car to drive in the snow - called the (rwd) VW Bug.
It is also things like TC and SC that real drivers looking to explore their car real capabilities DON'T want (or do want to disable), all because 'safety' systems like this also limit a vehicle's dynamic capabilities.

backy

I said slip-control AND winter tires. Good combo for winter. Although I managed just fine in many Minnesota winters with RWD and no slip control or winter tires--just safe driving practices.

acdii

OK so you're saying because it was modified, it doesn't qualify? Show me another "performance" car that can to what he did that isn't modified?

The modifications done were minor. It maintains the exact same chassis, they just increased the welding to stiffen it up. The engine still had the same internals, they had not bored and stroked it at at that time, it was supercharged and tuned. The changes made were to the suspension to increase it's cornering dynamics and lower the frame. and the body panels were replaced with light weight carbon fiber. It was not anything like a Nascar where the only thing is the engine block, everything else is the same between cars.

Lets put it in simple terms, if the basic car was so bad as you believe it to be, why would he bother to take the time to do what he did to it instead of using a BMW or some other so called "performance" car? He broke the hill climb record for a 2wd car in a production model car. Do you think he would have driven any other stock performance car without modifying it?

A stock Genesis Coupe 3.8 does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, and the 1/4 in 14.2, not shabby at all, the Mustang may be faster, but the Coupe can out handle it in an autocross. The Coupe is a very good platform to start with, and with minor modifications is right up there with a BMW M3, which of course also needs modifications to perform well. The bottom line is Hyundai has made a production performance car, you just don't want to admit it.

captain2

said slip-control AND winter tires. Good combo for winter. Although I managed just fine in many Minnesota winters with RWD and no slip control or winter tires--just safe driving practices.
this is what I see as the major disadvantage of RWD, since 1980 the only thing most drivers have driven is FWD. They NEED the extra traction of FWD because that is all they know and silly TC and SC control systems are no substitute for people relearning how to drive, winter tires notwithstanding.

captain2

Show me another "performance" car that can to what he did that isn't modified?

that's easy there aren't any. I didn't say what that Millen was driving wasn't a perforamnce car - obviously it is. What I did say is that it is NOT a Hyundai!

captain2

or more to the point, it becomes a Hyundai when (and only when) you and I can buy one.

backy

I agree. There is no substitute for knowing how to drive.

stever

My Super Beetle was amazing in Anchorage winters. But the heater was so weak, you couldn't see out the front window for all the frost.

Subaru, Hyundai see biggest gains in brand image (USA Today)

Now that Hyundai has a better brand image and a couple of luxo rides, the supposed target market no longer cares:

Baby Boomers Shift Car Buying Choices (AutoObserver)

"It was once thought that when baby boomers could put college tuition payments and other parenting expenses behind them, they would reward themselves with expensive luxury cars...

Yet, many share the same consciousness and car choices as Gen Yers. By choice or necessity, they are downsizing, streamlining and simplifying all aspects of their lives, from their house to their cars.

They are choosing vehicles that allow them to save money and gasoline while presenting an environmentally conscious image."

captain2

What does space efficiency of a powertrain have to do with whether a car is a luxury car or not?
It doesn't., of course, it only is a comment on one of the advantages of FWD. But also RWD is not necessarily a prerequisite of a 'luxury' car either - contrary to a number of posts you've made on the subject. Those other mfgrs will ditch their RWDs as sonn as the enthusiasts tell them that that is what they want - something never likely to happen,
And again, the Avalon, the Maxima, the Genesis and a number of other mass market mfgr vehicles are all certainly nothing more than upscale sedans, not 'luxury' vehicles by any stretch but not because which end the driven wheels are. Whether you want to admit it or not, it's all about those subjective perceptions - you tell people you drive an Avalon - they probably know that it Toy's flagship and a damn nice car - but they don't think of it as a luxury car, ditto for the Max and the Gen. OTH you tell folks you drive a BMW, or Benz, or Lexus or whatever, they know you drive among the best.

backy

Yeah, that sure strikes close to home! Most people would think someone in my income bracket would be driving a luxury car, with a luxury SUV for the wife. But I'd rather put my money into other things, like the kids' education, retirement funds (and retire early), pay off the mortgage ASAP, and give what I can to charities. If I had enough left over after all that to buy a luxury car, I might do it. But it would likely be a "previously owned" one. Plus I think "ordinary" cars are getting so good these days, there is less of a gap between "luxury" cars and "ordinary" cars that cost half as much, or even less.

captain2

My Super Beetle was amazing in Anchorage winters. But the heater was so weak, you couldn't see out the front window for all the frost
Had a Karmann Ghia in NE in those years in New England, same problem with the defroster , of course - it's hard to those air cooled engines to heat anything up when you are starting at -30

backy

In case you didn't notice by now... I don't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about how someone else characterizes or thinks of what I drive--unless they are going to buy it for me.

captain2

I don't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about how someone else characterizes or thinks of what I drive--unless they are going to buy it for me.
not a damn thing wrong with that - drive around in your Sonata and think its really a 530 in disguise - as long as that's what you truly believe than it is the truth.
The 'luxury' market, however, what is successful and/or accepted etc. does have a lot to do with what other people think.
Look at TVs - a fast changing inductry if there ever was one - long ruled by Sony - a luxury brand if there ever was one. Even today folks are going to look at that Sony sitting in your living room and somehow KNOW you bought the best - the fact that Samsung might now be making better TVs is not the point.

fintail

" the supposed target market no longer cares"

Aah, sweet journalism.

Seeing that the same-size yet much higher priced models still seem to be selling relatively well, the target market does in fact care.

fintail

Yeah, this was about a "tuned" model anyway - one that can't be bought. Genesis coupe and sedan both have good performance.

captain2

Genesis coupe and sedan both have good performance.
for a Hyundai product, certainly. Still wating for any of our H fanclub to tell me a model - any model of Hyundai product that was known as a performance vehicle.
Kind of like 'performance' Toyotas, there have only been a couple, and not too many will remember them.

fintail

It's tough for the reputation to follow the name with the way H has attached the same model name to two very different vehicles. But hey, there's some hillclimb special out there, that should be enough

captain2

you have to wonder how Hyundai putting as much money into Millen's pockets as they apparently did to get him to develop, make, and drive this thing vs. how much real recognition they might get out of being able to attach the Hyundai name to something as semi-obscure like a hill climb.
Never really understood the actual economics of advertising anyway or FTM the folks that take it seriously. And that's despite all those marketing courses I took in college.

backy

I don't know how you can not reasonably consider the Genesis coupe a performance vehicle. What is it missing, to be considered a performance vehicle in your eyes?

backy

... drive around in your Sonata and think its really a 530 in disguise - as long as that's what you truly believe than it is the truth.

No... but thanks for once again putting words on my fingertips. :P

One sure way I know my wife's Sonata is NOT a BMW is, the Sonata is available for use everyday... not at the mechanic's having something else fixed.

smarty666

One sure way I know my wife's Sonata is NOT a BMW is, the Sonata is available for use everyday... not at the mechanic's having something else fixed

lol

iluvmysephia1

big-time brand snob. Read below.

Look at TVs - a fast changing inductry if there ever was one - long ruled by Sony - a luxury brand if there ever was one. Even today folks are going to look at that Sony sitting in your living room and somehow KNOW you bought the best - the fact that Samsung might now be making better TVs is not the point.

Nuff said. You and I are very, very different. I just test-drove a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi in Henderson, NV (yep, about 8 miles from the Las Vegas strip) and not for one cotton-picking minute did I think that the Kizashi would be an embarassment in my SE Arizona small-town driveway.

Not once. Sure, Suzuki is struggling. In the U.S. market. So what. Suzuki is big on making motorcycles and marine products. And, they rule the kei-class market in Japan. That says a lot to me. And I kind of like that 'S' on the Kizashi's grille.

Tell me why I should not go out and buy my wife and I a 2010 Platinum Metallic Silver Suzuki Kizashi GTS with a 6-speed transmission, foglights, leather-wrapped gearknob and steering wheel, 425-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo and 10-way adjustable driver's seat, etc? Part of the on and on is the fact that Suzuki has built this car to be 2014-safety ready.

captain2-do you research new products and get excited about them? Or are you forever going to be stuck in this past-looking glitch-mode of sorts being pesty towards Hyundai?

What did Hyundai ever do ta you, man? Or, should I re-phrase my question. What did Hyundai not do for you?

Oh, and there is a good reason not to trade my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in on a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS. I love my Lancer GTS too much. Ahh...competition is good. Really good. And neither of these rigs comes from a snobbish background of carbuilding.


This is the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS


And this is the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS

Different styles...neither really better just different, eh? I love them both. It's like loving two women at the same time. Almost. We won't go there at this time.

Yes, I am a spoiled brat. I will openly admit that I was loved by both parents fully-completely and my Dad turned me on to the Seattle Supersonics real young. I used to work for Boeing for a grand total of 20 years and a nice pension awaits me at 62.

Will Social Security be around still in the year 2022? Steve, where on Edmunds is a current discussion going on that talks about SS benefits being viable in the years out ahead?

Rock to Foghat, The Guess Who, The Tragically Hip and The Drive-By Truckers while you still have a chance, car nuts. :shades:

stever

where on Edmunds is a current discussion going on that talks about SS benefits being viable in the years out ahead?

That would be Forget Bushisms, Biden Gaffes, We have Obama blunders. It covers the political spectrum.

We cover Hyundai in here - that means we pick on cars, not, ahem, other members and their choice of TVs or other brands.

smarty666

you bring up good points not just about BMW but the other German automakers as well; I for one would love to be in a new Audi, just love the bodystyles and interior's but I just here and read too much stuff about long-term reliability problems after 4-5 years and I'm just so afraid of taking a big chance like that since, while I do well financially, I'm not super rich and don't want to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars possibly at 5-7 years old on a Audi, BMW, or Mercedes!

I think with Hyundai, long-term reliability is less of a problem, though I don't think the Genesis has been out long enough to really know for sure how long-term reliability will be on that car?

backy

Yes, the Genesis is pretty new. In cases like that, I think you can go by the track record of the automaker. How have their other models fared in the past 5-10 years? Hyundai's have done pretty well, and steadily improving. That's no guarantee (see: Toyota), but gives you better odds.

OTOH, it appears the European luxury brands are steadily improving in reliability also. They had to do that, to compete with the more reliable Asian makes. And credit to the European makes for their efforts there. At that rate, Hyundai won't have to make the Genesis and Equus less reliable to compete in the luxury market.

iluvmysephia1

I just look forward to reading some real good reasons from someone why Hyundai is not making room for themselves in the luxury market. I'm not "picking" on anyone, steve. It just seems that those that want to pick on Hyundai aren't getting anywhere fast. They're firing blanks in to the wind.

Seems to me that Hyundai is not only making great luxury cars but they're making them interesting looking as well. Like the new i-flow I've posted umpteen times in here. Oh well.

Back to March Madness.