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Comments
well that is true, but I think that it is the sport enthusiast community that is saying that about Acura because they don't have a race car to compete with anything BMW or Infiniti currently puts out! but like I keep saying, there is more to luxury then sport sedans! Acura, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi to a little extent are more concerned with giving technological, creature comfort, and material quality luxury rather than sport performance/handling! if you want sport performance you have to go with BMW or Infiniti, plain and simple! but to say Acura isn't on the level as the other luxury makes because they don't have sport performance vehicles, is ridiculous! if this was the case then Acura wouldn't be winning all these awards and honors over their American, Japanese, and German luxury competitors!
plus, keep in mind, that the recession hit just after Acura was going to add some sport models to the line-up! I think it was smart of them to wait for the introduction of the NSX, which will be back in a few years, because they knew that with the economy the way it was, people were not going to be flocking in droves to buy or even consider a high performance sport coupe like the NSX! need to just be patient and wait a little bit longer till we get fully out of the recession and unemployment drops a lot more then where it is now!
I unfortunately feel Acura has taken a back step with their current styling trend (unlike Hyundai, which is definitely heading in the right direction); take it from a multiple time Acura owner that the current front grill throughout the line is absolutely hideous, I tried, I really tried to love it and even waited to see it in person several times, since pictures usually don't say much until you see it in person, but I just can't get over how butt ugly it is! the damn things look like their read to plow snow off the road, lol!!; I understand Acura wanting to make a luxury identity different from everyone else but I think their designers are taking them in the wrong direction!
I'm just glad I got my 3rd Gen TL when the car was still beautiful and sleek looking on the outside and was actually still a mid-size sedan before being blown up like the current gen is!
don't have to be a 'race car' to be a passable performance car IMO . Have read many many enthusiast mag comparos since 2005 that have the TL more than holding its own against the likes of the 330/Gs etc. - and this despite the FWD. Acura does several things quite well other than simply making reliable, well built cars. Unfortunately though the FWD does limit them a bit from a dynamic perspective, and the enthusiast is consumed with the whole RWD thing even if it is an inferior setup for most of our driving abilities.
I did 'interview' the TL very seriously when I last bought a 'large' sedan - it was the pinball machine gauges, I didn't like and more importantly the harsh ride that eventually ended up disqualifying it - a helluva car, though - by anybody's standards.
Nice to see that you don't even address the whole tier-1 thing.
Here are some quotes from Honda/Acura brass cited in articles from Ward's, a highly respected industry publication.
The new RDX small cross/utility vehicle and upcoming next-generation MDX midsize CUV should help Honda Motor Co. Ltd.'s Acura brand achieve Tier 1 luxury status, company officials say.
“Image (wise), we're not quite there yet,” Dan Bonawitz, vice president-auto operations for American Honda Motor Co. Inc., says at the RDX media preview here.
Acura has yet to attain the luxury-vehicle status of the BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus brands.
Honda is trying to emulate BMW by focusing on “more of a performance characteristic,” for Acura, “but (with) our own unique styling (and) unique application of technology,” Bonawitz says.
Acura's lack of a V-8 engine and rear-wheel-drive configuration in its high-volume models is cited by industry watchers as a reason the brand isn't considered among the Tier 1 luxuries.
“We fully intend to be a Tier 1 luxury manufacturer in our own way, and we understand those knocks,” he tells Ward's.
http://wardsdealer.com/ar/auto_new_rdx_mdx/
So much for your BMW comment. lol
While Acura models have tested well in the magazine's evaluations, there is “something about the brand that isn't resonating as strong as other premium brands,” says Jeff Bartlett, deputy autos editor for Consumer Reports.
When Honda Motor Co. Ltd. created the Acura brand for the U.S. in 1986, the auto maker did not intend for it to compete directly with established luxury players.
Instead, Acura would serve as an “intercept brand” for Honda customers looking for a “near-luxury experience,” says John Mendel, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. executive vice president. Before Acura, those customers would have been considering more expensive European luxury brands.
That strategy soon will come to an end as Acura attempts to reposition itself to compete more directly in the luxury sector, Mendel says, with the first attempts coming after the debut of the next-generation NSX supercar in 2010.
“For the first time, we're now ready to take Acura to Tier 1,” he tells journalists at the Detroit auto show. “This involves the retail network, the product and, frankly, our mindset as an organization.”
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_acura_aghast_consumer/
So - from the proverbial horse's mouth, a top level Honda executive, Acura is not a true luxury brand, but an "intercept brand" for a "near-luxury experience."
My only bias is that if I wanted to be in a luxury or near-luxury sedan w/ sporty intentions, I would want one w/ RWD and maybe a V8 (or at least a turbocharged V6) - besides good looks.
Acura is lacking in all those depts (otoh, if they ever get around to building one, I would have no problem seriously considering it).
Yes, image is a big part of luxury, but not always one and the same.
For instance, Seiko, not a "luxury" watch brand, has a line of watches appreciated by watch afficianados, Seiko's Spring Dive Watch line, which includes the Spring Dive Chrono (retails for around $7,500).
On the other spectrum, Patek Philippe is probably the watch brand w/ the greatest prestige among watch afficianados, but most people would go "Patek what?" and think that Rolex is the best/most expensive watch brand.
Along the same lines, most people, due to the eponymous advertising, think that Bose is a high-end/luxury audio/speaker brand, but audiophiles think Bose products are overpriced junk (and not even remotely high end or for that matter, expensive).
As you stated - how expensive an item is, does play a part in whether a product is "luxury"; along that train of thought, would a $33k TSX be considered more "luxurious" than a $42k V8 Genesis or a $50k+ Equus?
And what about the Acura EL/CSX - which were/are basically rebadged JDM Civics for the Canadian market?
Can a rebadged Civic be considered 'luxury", much less more luxurious than the Equus, an F segment executive sedan?
Again, Hyundai is not a luxury brand, but it is a full-line auto manufacturer (much like what Toyota is in Japan or Mercedes in Europe; note - MB announced that they would be bringing the B Class to the US and BMW announced that they would be developing a subcompact to slot below the 1 Series); I don't think too many people would say that the near $90k Nissan GT-R is not a luxury purchase simply due to the badge (if anything, one would get a lot more "oohs" and "aahs" driving a GT-R than anything in the Infiniti lineup).
again, as I pointed out before, your whole argument that Acura is not tier-1 is ridiculous at best because its based on this notion that because Acura doesn't have a V8/RWD supped up sport coupes/sedans that they are not on the level of BMW, give me a break!
again, there is NO tier system; it is a made up concept created by auto professionals in the sport enthusiast community who think that luxury is only defined by high performance/handling vehicles, which is just not the case; a good chunk of the American luxury buyer, such as myself, are more interested in getting a much more rounded luxury vehicle that Acura and Audi can provide! your links just proves my case further because all the quotes of this tier system comes from third party auto blogs and websites that have a sport enthusiast vision/agenda of the luxury market! if this is the sole basis for top level luxury, as you suggest, then despite Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi having a few V8/RWD models, their companies focus/mission is not one of enthusiast driving/sport performance so by your own classification then the only companies on top luxury level would be BMW and Infiniti while Acura, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi would be on the ladder rung below (these latter four luxury companies have a more well rounded focus/view of luxury); if anything, Lexus and Mercedes are the polar opposite of BMW and Infiniti in regards to their design and luxury philosophy; that is something I like about Acura and Audi, they tend to be in the middle of the other luxury makes, offering just the right amount of sport and luxury, not too much harsh sport stuff, such as BMW and Infiniti and too much of the soft, mushy stuff that Lexus and Mercedes put out!
for the last time, luxury is more then simply sport performance; your argument about the sport performance/handling being the sole determinant of tier-1 luxury makes no logical sense; Nissan, Chevy, Ford and other mainstream companies have RWD/V8 vehicles that could compete if not beat BMW on the track, etc so then based on your argument, Nissan, Chevy, Ford etc should be considered tier-1 luxury, come on :P
Acura is on the same level as the other Japanese and German luxury divisions; they match all the other luxury criteria, customer service, dealership experience, quality, reliability, technology, resale value, price points, etc; just accept it! because they lack in ONE category compared to almighty BMW does not mean they are not any less luxury then them and are only near luxury; there is no such thing as near luxury, I don't even know what that means, your either luxury or your not! that argument just doesn't make sense; plus, I think you would want them to be on the same luxury level as BMW since they win luxury awards, reliability, resale, etc compared to BMW and I don't think you want it to look like BMW loses out to a "supposed" inferior company
plus, give Acura some more time, they were in the process of reintroducing the NSX and the V8/RWD platform when the recession hit and so I personally think it was smart financial decision, while the majority of Americans are hurting with the economy, to postpone their introductions, since people are hurting for money and work right now so they are not going to flock in droves, to Acura, Infiniti, Audi, or BMW, etc for high priced sport vehicles!
I'm still looking for confirmation from Honda or Acura directly that they canceled the V8/RWD for the redesigned 2011 RL! I did manage to find their news announcement of postponing the NSX reintroduction to 2013 or 2014 but not the RWD/V8! I'm still looking though!
IMHO, "tier 1" = competitive in all markets.
And regarding Veracruz vs RX - the H might even be the better choice, simply because it lacks the Stepford wife image.
There was a time when top tier luxury cars were for real. Tier 1 luxury cars used to be better than near lux models in every way, by a wide margin. That hasn't been the case in at least 15 years, although it's still perceived that way by a small following of car buff's. The lines are just too blurry these days.
the biggest thing that puzzles me about this whole thing is this, how does a car not having RWD/V8 or in the Genesis case, sporty handling, reduces its luxury compared to one that does? the only thing that is different is that the car is not as fast/fun to drive as the one with the V8 and sporty handling! I just don't see how non-enthusiast characteristics makes one luxury car inferior to another? IT DOESN'T!! BMW does things better than Acura and Genesis in some regards while Acura and the Genesis do other things better than the BMW!
my whole point is BMW obviously has a better sport performance/handling capability then a Acura or Genesis, but they all have the same level of luxury; one is not more luxurious then the rest!
in fact, people with BMWs should stop worrying and concerning themselves with Acura, and start focusing more on Infiniti; Infiniti has BMW in its cross hairs, not Acura!
Is the $100k+ ZR1 or the $90k Viper luxury? Not in my book - damn fine sports cars by almost any reasonable definition, however - just like the GT-R. The Gen could be a luxury sedan if and when it gets a new name and is sold somewhere else - all despite a price that is rather minimal by 'luxury' standards
There is more to what a luxury car is, than simply a high price tag. The Inifiniti Ms are 'luxury' IMO, the Gs, however, entry level along the same lines as the 3s that they are meant to compete with. The GT-R, probably one of the finest one-off sports sedans that money can buy, an ultimate performance machine - but not luxury despite its pricetag
Then why is Hyundai working on a luxury crossover?
Otoh, the auto industry, including Honda/Acura executives DON'T think Acura has reached Tier 1 status.
Case closed.
Arguably, the entire Lotus lineup, including the new Evora, aren't luxury sports cars.
Same can be said for the Porsche Boxster and Cayman, and even the 911 pre-1990s (the interiors were just not up to par; even now, the interiors of the 911 are just OK).
Drive me around in a Rolls or a Bentley, and now you're talking luxury.
But then, so is the Equus tailored for those who are driven around by professionals. I guess that makes it a luxury car for sure, Hyundai label or not.
Acura Exec's never directly said they hadn't reached Tier 1 status but that they are able to compete with it in many regards!
Case Closed.
as long as its painted black, the driver has no B.O, and it is available to me 24/7!
Oh yeah, it is RWD V8 , they can do a lot to get some HP out of that otherwise lazy engine - must be a luxury car? Darn it though, as a Ford it can never be a luxury anything. Maybe as a Town Car? Oops they already do that, sans the vinyl....
As far as I know this is the first time a major auto company has compared their vehicle with a Hyundai and not the other way around as it have been in the past.
This shows that Hyundai is gaining respect from other automakers.
its good for Hyundai!
BTW, I saw the Equus up close today at the auto show. I think it looks stunning, although it could stand to lose the hood ornament (and I think it will, if for nothing else other than pedestrian safety standards). Some have said it looks like an Azera. It looks nothing like an Azera. It looks very substantial and rich, more like an LS than an Azera. The interior, with a huge LCD TV on the rear center console and rich leather and wood, looked every bit like that of a luxury car. My son, who thinks Hyundai is still second-rate, noted how the Equus reminded him of a Rolls-Royce in its luxury. I overheard a gentleman, about 60, talking with a Hyundai rep at length about the Equus. He said the lease on his Mercedes was up in about a year and the Equus was his #1 choice for his next car.
Or maybe, I just got caught up in the commercial :P
I saw a bright red Genesis coupe today. I have to wonder what will become of that model variant. It surely is not a luxury car, yet wears the aspirational name.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. :confuse:
No, I heard no negative comments whatsoever about the Equus at the auto show. In fact, I heard no negative comments whatsoever while in the Hyundai exhibit. Heard lots of positive comments though. But you don't want to hear that, because it is in conflict with long-held beliefs.
Please don't lay awake nights worrying what will become of the Genesis coupe. I bet the folks at Hyundai will be able to figure it out, somehow. Maybe they could hire you as a consultant, if you have any ideas for them.
From Cnet -
Acura will become a Tier 1 luxury brand--the models are on their way.
So says Dan Bonawitz, vice president for corporate planning and logistics at American Honda Motor Co.
For decades, Acura has been limping along as a wannabe luxury brand. The vehicles have never been considered competitors to Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus.
Luxury vehicles are on their way, Bonawitz says. The first step toward Tier 1 status is the redesigned 2009 TL sedan.
"The TL is close but not right at Tier 1," he says. "Then we will have an all-new vehicle in 2010 that's about the same level as TL. After that, we will have a sedan coming that will clearly put us in Tier 1."
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10015470-48.html
**************
Really can't get any more clear than that.
From Edmunds
While the Honda brand, with its longer history and larger volume, clearly is his No. 1 priority, Mendel is focusing heavily on the redefinition of the Acura brand, which celebrated its 20th anniversary last year. While young in automotive terms, the Acura is the oldest of the Japanese luxury marques.
Our goal is to move Acura into a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Mendel emphatically. We're pretty clear about it. BMW is well established, and Acura is not, in terms of a brand image. The good news for us is we don't have a lot of baggage.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/09/hondas-john-mendel-redefining-acura.html
********
Again, seems pretty clear-cut to me what Honda/Acura execs think.
Jeff Conrad, vice president of American Honda Motor's Acura division, concedes that dealers' expectations are high. He says Acura is working to improve its vehicles, marketing, and retail network. But achieving those goals will take time, he warns.
"Every product we launch becomes more of a Tier One product." Conrad says. "But you don't just snap your fingers and do it overnight. It is a long-term effort."
Acura dealers say they like the revamped TL. But T.Y. Lai, COO of the western region for DCH Auto Group, says sales of the redesigned model have been disappointing.
"We don't consider it luxury yet," says Lai, whose company owns four U.S. Acura dealerships. "I don't think the buyer considers it luxury."
Acura must offer vehicles in higher-priced segments if it wants to be considered a Tier 1 luxury brand, says Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates.
Acura has formed a 25-person team of executives to define how it will achieve Tier 1 luxury status. John Mendel, executive vice president of automobile operations at American Honda, heads the team.
Too far too fast?
Some dealers warn Acura against trying to step up in class too quickly.
"They immediately say they want to be like BMW, like Mercedes, like Lexus," says John Hawkins, president of Great Metro Autogroup, a suburban Los Angeles dealership group that includes an Acura store. Instead, Hawkins says, Acura should aim first to "compare themselves with Infiniti and Audi."
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10118216-48.html
Honda even formed a 25 member executive group to look at how Acura would achieve Tier 1 status, and it appears that some Acura dealers don't think Acura is on par w/ Infiniti and Audi, much less Mercedes and Lexus.
Case closed (again).
sport performance/handling DOESN'T HAVE anything to do with the amount of luxury a automaker has! the quality/reliability, value, customer service etc are what define luxury not how much HP and torque is under the hood; Acura has no less luxury then BMW does! get over it!
Oh, and about the Genesis and the Azera having a distinct resemblance - in fact, they do. The greenhouse design is very similar along with the rear quarter haunches. Perhaps H should go for a family resemblance in the way the Germans do - similar greenhouse designs among sedan variants. The Genesis would be the outlier here, with its BMW styling. Maybe the next one will have the same 6-window design as other H products.
What are my long-held beliefs? Please do tell me.
Yes, the folks at H can do anything in the world, any automotive category they want, it's theirs without a fight.
I noticed something lately at the H website...they classify these cars as "premium", not "luxury". Maybe that's the distinction we should make.
Oh, and about the Genesis and the Azera having a distinct resemblance - in fact, they do. The greenhouse design is very similar along with the rear quarter haunches. Perhaps H should go for a family resemblance in the way the Germans do - similar greenhouse designs among sedan variants.
You have obviously not been paying attention to what Hyundai is doing with their sedans. There is a strong family resemblance and styling theme emerging, starting with the 2011 Sonata and continuing to the next-gen Elantra and Accent. We don't know yet what that will mean for the next-gen Genesis, since it's too early for any photos or even concept cars yet, but we do see a hint of this styling theme in the C pillar of the Equus--a swept-back look like that of the Sonata vs. the more formal lines of the Genesis. Yes the Azera has a similar little window behind the rear doors as the Equus. But after seeing the Equus up close, that is the only detail that is similar to the Azera. The character line on the rear of the car is much different than on the Azera--take a close look and you'll see what I mean. The one on the Equus is much more like the one on the new M than on the Azera (and keep in mind the Equus had it first). The rear end of the Equus is much different than the Azera's, as is the front. And there is no similarity between the interiors--which is a good thing, as I never liked the dash on the Azera. If you believe two cars have a "distinct resemblance" because they share one styling detail, then you would need to think that the Camry has a distinct resemblance to the 7 Series (same hump in the trunklid), the E Class has a distinct resemblance to the old Spectra (same sweep below the side windows), and also the E Class has a distinct resemblance to the old LeSabre from the early '90s (same C pillar, including the little window in front of the C pillar).
The Genesis would be the outlier here, with its BMW styling. Maybe the next one will have the same 6-window design as other H products.
The Genesis sedan draws more design cues from Mercedes-Benz, IMHO. Not BMW. From the waterfall grille to the overall body shape it looks MB-enz-ish to me.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You have some issues cuz your desperation is showing.
Different features carry more visual weight and influence than others. The front end and the greenhouse are the most recognizable features of a car. The Equus and Azera have the same design language for the greenhouse, and the rear quarter detail/haunch is similar. Comparing these to a Camry hump vs 7er, or the wild claims of a side sweep resembling a Spectra (I can just as easily claim it is simply an evolutionary detail from the W211) is nutty. Little window in front of the C-pillar making it resemble an old Buick? You obviously have not been paying attention to cars that don't come out of Korea....it's a trait seen on every MB sedan for nearly 60 years. Right, nice try. And regarding the M, nobody will ever accuse Infiniti of being a design innovator - it's either boring (M, G, etc) or weird (FX). Nobody follows that lead.
The coupe is moving upmarket, reportedly, to coincide w/ the launch of Hyundai's luxury marque in 5-6 years time (when the next gen Genesis sedan and coupe will debut).
There has been no info. on another RWD sports coupe in development by Hyundai and considering that the FWD Tiburon replacement will be ready in about a year and a half, as well as a 3 Series/IS sporty sedan competitor (to slot as the entry level lux sedan), one would be hard pressed to see Hyundai spending the time and resources to develop another RWD model.
If H does make a distinct new marque in a few years, that will be very interesting to watch. Competition is a good thing.
The iFlow is reportedly going to be the basis for the future i40 in Europe (if correct, it seems like Hyundai will eventually offer the European market a mid-size sedan distinct from the Sonata).
As for the Genesis sedan, it draws more styling cues from the BMW due to the use of the Hofmeister kink (but then again, pretty much every auto manufacturer has done so).
The only MB-ish thing about the Genesis is having a horizontally-slatted grill w/ a divider down the middle (add a divider to all the horizontally-slatted grills for past and present Infiniti, Lexus and Acura models and they become very MB-ish).
news flash, most luxury car buyers don't need a high performance race car to get around! they look for ones that have a overall balance of refinement, quality, reliability, customer service, etc something that Acura, Lexus, and Audi offer quite well!!
you still don't seem to get it that your whole argument lacks any logic behind it; to sit there and say that companies like Acura, Hyundai, etc are inferior and less luxurious to over-rated, over-priced BMW and Mercedes because they don't have a V8 or RWD option makes absolutely no sense; what does one have to do with the other? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!! V8s and RWD have nothing to do with how luxurious a car is! plain and simple! it might have something to do with how well a car is in regards to racing, speed comparison, on the track numbers, etc but nothing to do with how luxurious a car is!!
my God, the Genesis has a V8 RWD option yet there are people on here who come on and criticize how unrefined it is and how's it not a luxury car, or that is not up to the level of BMW or Mercedes because it is a Hyundai so the argument you are making falls flat on his face right there in that regard with the Genesis!
it is completely hypocritical to put down and slam a automakers who you never have even had one of their products and won't even try, before you make ridiculous claims that they are near luxury or wannabe luxury, so how could you know! you can't!
if anyone is in desperation it is you to try and make this V8/RWD = luxury point and saying companies like Acura, Hyundai, etc are inferior in order to make yourself feel better when these supposed inferior companies win LUXURY awards over your precious over-rated BMW and Mercedes vehicles
I guess it makes you feel better to feel and think their losing out to inferior companies as an excuse as to why its happening! lol
I find it hysterical the people who waste their hard earn money on BMW's and Mercedes where you have to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars more for the same luxury features that come either standard or in much cheaper option packages in their Korean and Japanese counterparts and no where near hold their value as well or are as reliable like the Japanese and Korean luxury vehicles are!
That isn't a waterfall grille?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
plus the reliability and resale value of the Genesis is going to be a heck of a lot better then that of its BMW or Mercedes counterparts!
its a no brainer, if you have any financial common sense in your head and want a luxury car, this is the car to get!
In other words, by Fintail's Law it is unacceptable to make posts like the one below, since they are mere "hyperbole" and "idol-worship":
BTW, I saw the Equus up close today at the auto show. I think it looks stunning, although it could stand to lose the hood ornament (and I think it will, if for nothing else other than pedestrian safety standards). Some have said it looks like an Azera. It looks nothing like an Azera. It looks very substantial and rich, more like an LS than an Azera. The interior, with a huge LCD TV on the rear center console and rich leather and wood, looked every bit like that of a luxury car. My son, who thinks Hyundai is still second-rate, noted how the Equus reminded him of a Rolls-Royce in its luxury. I overheard a gentleman, about 60, talking with a Hyundai rep at length about the Equus. He said the lease on his Mercedes was up in about a year and the Equus was his #1 choice for his next car.
If that is not "opinion", I don't know what is. Actually it's opinion with some facts. Why does it it bug you so much when someone has a positive opinion about something Hyundai, and overhears other people stating positive opinions about Hyundai?
Here's a definition of "idol worship" for you: someone who is so hung up on how great a car company is that they attribute even the most basic, universal styling feature to that company. Such as, for example, a basic C pillar with a little window in front of it.
An alternate definition is, someone who thinks it is impossible for any owner/lessee of a car from that car company to seriously consider getting a Hyundai for his next car. So impossible that you accuse someone who mentions that of making it up.
Made any burnt offerings to the altar of MB today? A virgin, maybe?
P.S. Oh, this is interesting. The 1950 MB did NOT have the little window in front of the C pillar, which you stated MB has had for at least 60 years. But the 1950 Ford did. Should we surmise then that MB stole that idea from Ford?
thanks.
A "C pillar with a little window in front of it" is usually used off and on simply to allow a portion of the rear window to roll down completely. Otherwise called a "soft pillar", it probably dates back to the middle and upper tier GM cars of 1933 Like this - nobody copied that 20 years later. I'm not the one claiming anyone copied it from anyone - but nobody I can think of has used a door-to-C-pillar relationship of similar angles for nearly 50 years like MB, nor the soft pillar relationship to the C-pillar as MB has for even longer. It's a design tradition for the company.
P.S. - I never said anyone has done anything for "at least 60 years"...and like it or not, the Genesis design drew severe inspiration from the E60 5er. It's pretty cut and dried.