Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

toye

Hey I was wondering when Steve was going to come around. LOL

I too saw the Equus in person and was able to play around in it for 15 minutes.
It is much more lavish and more stately than the Genesis inside and out. I really think it will appeal to the person who can afford an automobile that are looking to drop 50k or more.

toye

I have mistaken the Lexus 460 several times for my Genesis when in parking lots looking where I parked the car.

fintail

I suppose from the front and not at the side, and if not looking closely, a mistake could be made:

backy

No, it was "nearly 60 years."

I can't wait until you post your impressions of the Equus, when you see it up close. I'm sure there will be no opinions offered, just cold, hard facts about the car. You probably won't even mention how much you hate the hood ornament because that would be an opinion, and hyperbole at that.

I really do think that a hood ornament like the one on the Equus won't pass muster because of pedestrian safety regs. Really sorry that my mentioning that point caused you such distress.

Here are some facts to ponder--no opinions. I know you will appreciate that.

* In 2000, Hyundai introduced the US to the idea of Hyundais starting in the mid-$20s.
* In 2005, Hyundai introduced the US to the idea of Hyundais crossing the $30k line.
* In 2006, Hyundai introduced the US to the idea of Hyundais priced in the mid-$30s.
* In 2008, Hyundai introduced the US to the idea of Hyundais priced over $40k.
* In 2010, Hyundai will cross the $50k line in the US.
(end facts)

What I think (OPINION ALERT!) is that this was all part of a long-term strategy to move Hyundai into the luxury market, in small steps. And it has paid off, not only in creating a beachhead in the luxury market with the Genesis sedan, but in moving the rest of the Hyundai lineup up the price ladder. Now, for example, it's no big deal to pay $25k for a four-cylinder Sonata. That was unheard of a few years ago, as was paying $15k for an Accent or upper teens to near $20k for an Elantra. This entre into the luxury market was not some overnight idea. It's the culmination of years of planning, and hard work.

backy

You really have to cut out those opinions and hyperbolic rants about the Equus--they are not acceptable here and can get folks upset!

How in the heck did you get to play around in it for 15 minutes? Luck-eeee.

toye

The local dealership had the touring Equus in their showroom for a week or two last summer and they allowed anyone to check it inside and out. They had the Equus on a battery so you could play around with the toys inside much like at a car show. It really really is nice but for now will be out of my price range.

From what I understand Hyundai is not worried about selling alot of these but just the fact that they are capable of producing an automobile of this magnitude has other automakers jealous and others looking in their $90,000 rearview mirror

fintail

Seeing as the Genesis had some handling issues, I sincerely doubt the Equus will be able to get ahead of the more expensive competition on the road...not exactly designed by people who like driving :P

I can't see a reason to be jealous of that thing, simply for styling alone. It will sell in NA, but will not be a large impact elsewhere, just like Lexus.

fintail

"Nearly" is less, "at least" is more :P

You really think the only reason that hood ornament wouldn't fly in western markets is because of safety? That consumers would actually embrace such a cynical and childish styling feature?

Interesting price timeline. That means within 5 years H should be hitting the 100K mark, and then the sky's the limit. Maybe MB and BMW shouldn't be worrying, but Rolls, Bentley, maybe Ferrari and Lamborghini, etc. Seeing as H has a successful line of tuned cars, they'll decimate the handling market in no time - as we know the luxury market has already been conquered. Oops, hyperbole.

25K for a 4cyl Sonata? You'd have to be a pretty free spender, in my opinion...I wouldn't drop that much on a similarly engined Camcord. I'd be curious to know what amount actually change hands for that money.

"Premium"...I think the H website uses an agreeable term.

captain2

I've just noticed that Nissan's new advertising is comparing their top of line Maxima to the Hyundai's Genesis. They go on and they say "you can get a Nissan Maxmia for a couple of thousand less than the Hyundai Genesis".

Exactly who Nissan (and the other mass market J3s) should be worried about, as they should also be starting to recognize the Sonata (despite no V6). The Max SL and the Genesis both mass market 'near luxury' vehicles and in the same size and price category. Heck, the Max is going to outaccelerate (and outhandle?) the 3.8 Gen anyway. Maybe that Maxima ain't such a bad deal after all especially considering that 'superior ' FWD ?

toye

Remember only in PRICE not product!!

captain2

you missed the point of the post, I guess
Exactly what is it, about the Gen 3.8 that you think puts it on some level above cars like a $35k Maxima?

backy

You really think the only reason that hood ornament wouldn't fly in western markets is because of safety? That consumers would actually embrace such a cynical and childish styling feature?

I try not to tell other people what they think is stylish or not. That's a very personal and subjective thing. I don't think a hood ornament like that is appropriate for a modern car. Maybe on a 1960 Rolls. And it's clear you don't like it. I never said the ONLY reason the Equus won't keep the hood ornament is safety regs--I suggested it ala "if nothing else because of pedestrian safety regs." If safety regs do allow it, I think Hyundai will assess what the general opinion is on it (e.g. test marketing) and decide what to do. Who knows, maybe they'd find most people in the market for a car like that like the hood ornament. Crazier things have happened.

I see though that hyperbole is fine as long as it comes from your keyboard.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "similarly engineered" Camcord, wrt to the new Sonata. If you are interested in what folks are paying for the 2011 Sonata, there's a Prices Paid discussion here at Edmunds.com. Yes, for a Limited folks are paying around $25k or more, given there's little in the way of rebates on this new design.

backy

What handling issues are you referring to (I assume you mean the Genesis sedan, since you also mentioned the Equus)? I have heard some people complain of an "unsettled" ride on some road surfaces on the 2009 Genesis, but I really haven't seen complaints on handling. Remember that this is a large luxury sedan, not a sports car.

fintail

Safety regs are the only reasons you found worthy to mention why H would dump that ridiculous ornament. You imply that's the only problem, while nobody in the world would argue that it is actually good design.

It would behoove you to not use quotes unless you are actually quoting someone verbatim. Please. 4cyl Camcord vs 4cyl Sonata. They are all bland designs IMO, who blows 25K for one these days? Prices paid discussions are amusing...I could claim I paid 2K for one, or 40K.

fintail

There are numerous posts about suspension in the Genesis "Initial Quality and Issues" thread right here on Edmunds....bouncy and uncontrolled ride, weird alignment issues, read it yourself.

No reason to believe the Equus will be any better. It's already somewhat of an old design, isn't it? And H doesn't exactly have a rep for suspension tuning (other than the mysterious tuner car that was never linked, ahem ) or handling

Calling the Genesis a "large luxury sedan" is also a stretch, it's a 5er mimic in many ways, which isn't a large car itself.

toye

There you [non-permissible content removed]/U/me again, that the Equus will have suspension and handling problems. Stick with your MB. There are plenty of issues with MB and their past electrical problems but do you see anybody on this blog bash MB like you do to Hyundai.

backy

I have read the Genesis sedan owner reports. Not long ago I went through all 130 or so that were posted for the 2009 model at that time. (Of course, 2010 is on the right now.) I found only a handful mentioned issues with the suspension/ride, and none with the handling. That is why I asked what "handling" (direct quote from you) issues you knew about.

Edit: I just looked at the 19 reports to the right on the sedan. Have you? Only one said the suspension needed any improvement. I thought this comment was interesting, though: "Friends owning BMW's and Mercedes are duly impressed and even more so when the purchase price is taken into consideration."

The Genesis is larger in interior room than the 7 Series, isn't it? That is why I called it a "large" luxury sedan--it's bigger than mid-sizers like the 5 Series.

You do like to keep harping on little bits, don't you? Many many posts on how you hate the Equus' hood ornament, and several posts complaining that you couldn't find the link I posted here to the tuned Genesis coupe. If you are incapable of mastering the Page Up key on your keyboard, I can't help you with that--sorry.

Re info posted on the Sonata Prices Paid discussion... you don't seem to trust that people will post accurate prices there. So why should we trust the info in the Genesis "Initial Quality and Issues" thread here, which you encouraged me to read? Is it that people will only post factual info on Hyundais when it's negative, but when it's positive, or simply basic facts like prices paid, people will generally lie? :surprise: :confuse:

captain2

but do you see anybody on this blog bash MB like you do to Hyundai.
If any criticism is 'Bashing' than I guess you can count me as one of those that has 'bashed' the German cars for their documented issues with electronic gremlins. And although I don't follow those particular forums, I'm relatively confident that there are entire threads devoted to those type of MB/BMW problems.
The Genesis has received a number of criticisms from a number of sources (including an owner or two on this forum) about an ultimately choppy and uncontrolled (albeit on the firmer side) ride on washboard type surfaces. Ditto for the Azera, except in that case, a ride that is too soft and ultimately uncontrolled. Hyundai, whether you want to admit or not, is a manufacturer that has a history of tuning its cars closer to the Toyota side of things, not the European side.
Are fintail's comments 'bashing' or simply statements that you don't want to hear?

backy

Hyundai Tops in Owner Loyalty

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/us/view/pressrelease/kelley-blue-book-kbb-com-hyundai-- owner-loyalty-speeds-past-honda-replaces-toyota-to-take-no-1-spot-383824

And that can only help Hyundai as they try to move those Sonata owners up to the Genesis, and Genesis owners up to the Equus.

captain2

simply basic facts like prices paid, people will generally lie?
sad but probably true. Human nature and a function of EGO despite nothing to be gained with the 'fib'.

fintail

This isn't a "blog", and you're not a host, but thanks for your suggestion.

Please, give us another astonished propaganda post about the wondrous luster of Hyun-Kia greatest thing since sliced bread, innovator of all modern cars, able to do no wrong, and leap tall buildings in a single bound

Who is bashing Hyundai, really? Is daring to mention any legitimate issues "bashing"? Is going against the fanboy-ism "bashing"? I dare you to show any post where I call any H product a bad car. Please, do it.

toye

His comments go beyond critical as he bashes Hyundai for making a luxury car. He doesn't want to test drive the product and already taking aim at the up coming Equus.

I don't go over to MB blogs and be hyper critical of that product because I'm no authority of MB. I have driven and ridden in some in the recent past and find the product fine.

I'd take his comments more seriously if he took the time to test drive the Genesis.

toye

Again another article of Hyundai going in the right direction. Are they there yet? Not quite yet as they will need to be persistantly on or near top in the future

fintail

No doubt you've read them and memorized them more than once. There has been ample discussion in more than one venue about Genesis suspension issues, which translate directly into uneven handling. I know it's hard to admit, as it would be typing words about H that weren't glowing perfection. That a foray into a new segment for them might actually need refinement.

" "Friends owning BMW's and Mercedes are duly impressed and even more so when the purchase price is taken into consideration." "

Why wouldn't that be believable? A Genesis is likely going to have more impressive bits than some C300 or 328 etc.

Interior room is a funny thing, not really related to usable room nor exterior dimensions. Looking at the data here 5er and here Genesis, one can see the the Genesis is larger inside almost to a point of statistical insignificance, and that A 7er is almost the same as both inside. So...yeah.

Link your tuned car link, or it didn't happen. It's nicer than "put up or shut up" :P . The ball is in your court...

And it's a lot easier to bend the truth about a price than to lodge a specific technical complaint...not to mention bending it either way can also be an ego boost.

toye

You are bashing Hyundai for making a luxury car :surprise:

fintail

You don't have to take me seriously.

Hyper critical? Really, drama queen much? Heck, I can admit MB has had some serious problems...can the H boys admit the same for their embraced brand?

I don't like to waste the time of salesmen, I have no plans to buy any car right now as I am enjoying a lack of automotive debt...so there's no reason for me to drive one. I'll maybe wait for the next one, which should evolve past an E60

fintail

I'm bashing some of the poorly thought out details of said car.

houdini1

Do you mean to tell me that you would buy another Mercedes after owning one, albeit a used one? I would think you would have you fill of the electrical gremlins, expensive repairs, and aristocratic used car salesmen !!

You must be a glutton for punishment and a true Mercedes fanboy !!

captain2

I'd take his comments more seriously if he took the time to test drive the Genesis.
All this is well and good, and the Genesis may indeed be the best thing since s**.
BUT - what this forum ('is there a room in the luxury market for Hyundai' ) seems to me to be basically unrelated to conversations about whether ANY particular car that Hyundai might manufacture can ever be a 'luxury' car, NOT whether it is a good car or even that it is a screaming value.
Don't believe you'll get much of a credible argument from anybody on that last count, but on the first one? Isn't that what we're supposed to be talking about? :confuse:

backy

There has been ample discussion in more than one venue about Genesis suspension issues, which translate directly into uneven handling.

That is based on, what? Your experience behind the wheel of the 2009 Genesis? When I read the comments about the 2009 Genesis and "unsettled" ride, I don't see them mention "uneven handling". Really the focus of those comments was on the ride not being as buttoned-down as some owners would like it on certain road surfaces. Maybe you could post some owner comments that talk about the unsettled ride directly translating into uneven handling?

And that was the 2009 Genesis. The 2010 Genesis, as you probably know, got suspension tweaks to please that 5% of the population who thought the 2009 was "unsettled."

Supposing someone would want to lie about the price paid for a Hyundai... wouldn't you think the tendency would be to lie in the lower direction, not puff up the price? "Hey, guys, I just OVERPAID for a Hyundai Sonata! Yep, paid $25k for one of the new 2011 Limiteds! I am so proud!" :confuse:

fintail

:P

I've had very few electrical issues - none impacting driveability and all covered under warranty, just one non-warranty (not electrical) repair, servicing that costs no more than any other Euro, and the sales experience was jerky rather than aristocratic - but I am a jerk too, so it wasn't a big deal to me. The expense is worth it to me for the driving ability and the oddness of the car.

I'm a fanboy, but I can admit there are MB cars I'd rather not have in my garage. Nobody is perfect. Not even H. And I can even admit there are H cars I wouldn't have a problem driving.

fintail

I am pretty sure you've spent no real time behind the wheel of one either - especially not in a spirited driving environment, so how can you call me out on that? :confuse: I have yet to drive a car where opinions of the handling made by others didn't match my own experience.

Ride and handling go hand in hand. A car with an uneven unrefined ride will not suddenly be a remarkable handling machine.

Some people like to claim things are more valuable to appear more affluent or free-spending. I knew a guy who would tell me his old fintail was worth 50K! Didn't mean it was true.

backy

I am pretty sure you've spent no real time behind the wheel of one either - especially not in a spirited driving environment, so how can you call me out on that?

That comment tells me a lot. You are sure about things which you know nothing about. And in this case you are dead wrong. I feel like quoting Yoda here. But I won't, as the distinctive voice needs to go with it.

I have yet to drive a car where opinions of the handling made by others didn't match my own experience.

I think that is probably true, since there is such a wide variety in owner opinions on a car's handling that you could probably find at least one opinion that agrees with yours. The Genesis is a classic example of that, re owner opinions on ride and/or handling. Read the owner reviews (much bigger sample available for 2009 than 2010) and you'll see opinions all over the map. Many noted the ride/handling is great--no issues. Some said it's "unsettled" over rough road surfaces. Some said the ride is too firm. Some said the ride is too soft. Since you probably don't believe me, take a look at these owner comments for yourself.

As for ride/handling, the Mazda3 is one of the worst, most unrefined "riding" cars I know. Almost unbearable, IMO, on rough pavement and tar strips on the freeway. But it's also one of the most fun to drive, in the low-end FWD space anyway, because of its crisp handling.

Having someone tell you what his old fintail is worth, and reporting the exact price of a new car you just bought on a public forum dedicated to reporting car purchase prices are much different things.

j2j

That's b/c Lexus change tracks and borrowed some BMW cues for the LS460, as opposed to the S Class clone, the LS430.

Lexus did tone down some of the more polarizing aspects of the Bangle 7 Series - which is why the new toned down 7 and the LS460 look really similar from the side and rear.

Claires

IS there room in the luxury market for Hyundai?

j2j

"Seeing as the Genesis had some handling issues, I sincerely doubt the Equus will be able to get ahead of the more expensive competition on the road...not exactly designed by people who like driving."

What handling issues?

While not a sports sedan like the 5 Series, most reviewers are impressed by the Genesis' ability to turn corners w/ little body roll (many have compared the handling to that of the E Class and GS; tho some say it turns into corners better than the GS).

If you had meant tuning of the suspension - then you might have had something (note - some people complained about the suspension over rough roads; many had no such issues and the changes made to the 2010 suspension has alleviated such concerns).

As for the Equus, it has an air suspension (like the KDM Genesis), and based on some early reviews, rides smooth.

And the whole brouhaha over the hood ornament is silly; hood ornaments are commonplace on limo class sedans in Asia (see Nissan Cima, Nissan President) and won't be a part of the USDM Equus (tho, reportedly, a no. of prospective US buyers have inquired about the hood ornament and Hyundai may offer it as an aftermarket addition).

And speaking of the Nissan Cima, it used to be exported to the US as the Q45; and higher up on the hierachy is the Nissan President which competes against the flagship of the Toyota fleet, the Century.

j2j

"There are numerous posts about suspension in the Genesis "Initial Quality and Issues" thread right here on Edmunds....bouncy and uncontrolled ride, weird alignment issues, read it yourself."

Suspension tuning/ride and handling are two quite DIFFERENT things.

Also, basing the ride quality of the Equus on the 2009 Genesis is laughable, esp. considering that the Equus has a totally diff. suspension set-up than the USDM Genesis due to its air suspension (nevermind the early reviews which applaud the smoothness of the ride).

Funny thing - the Acura TSX and BMW X3 have been criticized for their harsh (or bouncy) uneven ride over rough pavement; but then again, neither are exactly luxury vehicles.

j2j

Get over yourself!

Honda/Acura execs have clearly stated that they are (or at least were) working on making Acura a Tier 1 luxury brand(tho, it appears that they may have abandoned that goal, at least for now, w/ their "smart luxury" initiative).

Do you really think what you think takes precedence over what Honda/Acura execs think/say? lol

j2j

..."a Mercedes-Benz than anything else. "

If you stopped focusing on the grill, you'd notice that the headlamps are nothing like MB; and that the entire side and rear a much more like BMW than MB.

If you are looking for a Mercedes clone (S Class) - look up the Lexus LS430 (just put a divider down the grill and they look eerily similar, esp. the greenhouse/C-pillar and rear.

LASHAWN

Can we all agree that every auto manufacturer has their flaws. Whether it be MB and BMW with their electronic gremlins, Lexus with their floaty ride and Hyundai for their suspensions? Let's face it, nobody makes the perfect automobile, we as consumers will always find something about a car that we don't like and that we do like it's human nature like someone side earlier. So everyone get off your high horse stop bashing or whatever it is you want to call it and just agree on one thing. Either you like or you don't. If you don't than why waste your time giving someone your opinion about a car you never plan to purchase, kinda stupid in my book.

vcheng

What's the old saying that there is always room at the top? I would say that yes there is room for Hyundai, as for any other maker, in the luxury market.

Of course, they need to have the right product mix, with the right marketing and the after sales service, that work for their buyers.

fintail

Yes, there likely is...once the "luxury" product is made. The Genesis is a very nice car, but it's not the one to play in that market. The H website calls it "premium", and I have to agree with that.

fintail

So you have driven a Genesis in a spirited environment, and just never mentioned it until now. OK, whatever. Owning an Elantra and a Sonata, what do you care about enthusiastic driving or handling anyway?

Rough or harsh is not the same as unrefined. Many brilliant performance cars can be jarring on rough roads - but for a reason.

I've read many comments, and the fact that H has been forced to retune the suspension on the newest Genesis says a lot...it wasn't balanced right before.

I see no difference between someone claiming what a car is worth and claiming what they paid. I can claim an old car is worth $X too, and few people would know any better.

Oh, last night I saw an ad on TV for a sweet $199/month lease on a new style Sonata. Supply must be increasing fast.

fintail

IMO there is some slight similarity between those cars from the rear...not so much the side, as my eyes hit the greenhouse first, and they aren't the same. But at least now L has moved on to its own greenhouse, rather than imitating MB. Establishing independent design is a big key to gaining credibility in the higher tiers on a multi-market scale. H can have some credit there, it does not mimic the greenhouse of cars in the same price range.

fintail

Suspension tuning and handling are directly related.
If H didn't get the Genesis right from the start, I find it "laughable" to believe the company would be able to do so with the Equus, as H itself has virtually no track record of making performance products.

fintail

I look at the context of the post I was replying to, from our resident propagandist about being "jealous". Of course, words touting H superiority draw no ire, only questioning the flawless perfection of every aspect of Hyundai motoring.

I had read the inconsistent suspension and feel led to less than Germanic cornering or high speed maneuverability...but I can imagine it might still be better than a numb Lexus, no doubt there. And I don't doubt the new mods have helped. But the fact remains, it wasn't sorted out from the beginning...not the pink of perfection as a few claim.

Air suspension is smooth of course...but how does it handle? The 7er and S handle genuinely well for vehicles of their girth...while the LS has put up some poor performances and has just now been improved on one option package.

Nissan Cima with a hood ornament...the Q45 that eventually failed (and soundly) almost everywhere but in the home market? Some areas just aren't good at design. What is silly is some defending such lame and base styling elements as a weird winged hood ornament on a car that wants to be a world beater.

captain2

there is always room for new luxury products - there is however, no room for a Hyundai branded 'luxury' product - such a thing can not exist as that would be a contradiction in this land of perceptions that we all live in.
If Hyundai had taken the proven route that recognizes the often silly brand consciousness of the American consumer and given the car a new name and a new place to sell them - this forum would likely not exist - replaced instead by forums about the relative merits of different 'luxury' brands

tjc78

I've read many comments, and the fact that H has been forced to retune the suspension on the newest Genesis says a lot...it wasn't balanced right before.

I can sum up the Genesis's suspension with one old adage..."a jack of all trades and a master of none" The ride is smooth and quiet on good roads, but on bad roads is unsettled and transmits imperfections through the steering wheel. The rear suspension is especially what needed work. The handling is pretty good considering the size and weight, however, during an evasive manuver the other day I noticed the steering isn't as quick as I thought it was.

As I have said a few times before; Hyundai should have made the Genesis softer like an Avalon and then offered a sport package which would be firmer than the current model. This would have enabled people to pick what they want instead of the current "compromise"

backy

If H didn't get the Genesis right from the start, ...

Are you saying, it is a bad idea for a car company to make improvements to a car's design? Did MB make any improvements to the new E Class compared to the previous generation? Let's see...

The newly developed DIRECT CONTROL suspension with standard-fit amplitude-dependent damping system is one of the major factors behind the high degree of long-distance comfort provided by the E-Class.

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Mar09/11_001618_The_2010_Mercedes_Benz_E_Class_Chas- sis_And_Suspension.html

Oh, how about that... looks like MB not only tweaked the suspension of the 2010 E Class, they used a NEW DESIGN. Interesting. What was "wrong" with the old one? Why didn't they get it "right from the start"? If it was so great to begin with, it would not need improving, now, would it?

But I forget--that is MB, and they get to live by a different set of rules in Fintails's World compared to the likes of Hyundai.

Owning an Elantra and a Sonata, what do you care about enthusiastic driving or handling anyway?

There you go again... making broad assumptions about what other people think, and do. Tell you what... if I send you my mailing address, will you send me a cashier's check for, say, $30,000 so I can run out and buy a boy-toy, just for weekends? No? Then since you don't really give a flip about what I drive, let's just drop it and get back to the topic.

backy

You may know this already, but the Equus has both touring and sport modes, so that provides both worlds in one car--courtesy of the air suspension. Maybe if that feature proves popular, Hyundai will put it on the US-spec Genesis--albeit with a bump in price.