Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

tjc78

Maybe if that feature proves popular, Hyundai will put it on the US-spec Genesis--albeit with a bump in price.

IMO that would just add complexity and possible reliabilty issues down the road. What Hyundai really needs to do is define the Genesis. Is it a highway cruiser or sport sedan? Right now its kind of in the middle. Not firm enough for the BMW crowd and not soft enough for the Lexus crowd.

backy

Not firm enough for some of the BMW crowd nor soft enough for some of the Lexus crowd, yes. Maybe there are those who like the meet-in-the-middle approach. Why does the Genesis have to ride like either the BMW or Lexus?

fintail

That's not an applies to apples comparison. 2010 E-class is a new platform updating an 8 year old car. 2010 Genesis is the same car as the one year older Genesis with some suspension tweaks... because it wasn't done properly upon introduction.

Yes, let's get back to topic, go for it.

fintail

Your last part is a good strategy...the successful competition have used it for eons. Make a normal car, and a sport model...and even a softer "deluxe" etc model for those who want it, It might even find more buyers, if the car doesn't handle right for enthusiasts, but is too sharp for cruisers.

backy

So MB waited 8 years to update the insufficient suspension of the E Class?? Wow. That kind of inaction can only help Hyundai's push into the luxury market. Too bad MB didn't design the E Class' suspension right when the car was introduced.

fintail

There was nothing "insufficient" about it. There was also more than one variation of the non-tuned W211, it existed in normal and "sport" variants. Technology advanced. MB also has historically long product life cycles, as the platforms are usually so competent when new, that they age gracefully.

The redo of the Genesis was not about technology moving forward.

smarty666

its just not worth it trying to explain it to you anymore man, it just isn't! no one cars what the luxury sports enthusiast community has to say!

thats because the majority of luxury car buyers don't care if there is a high powered V8 with RWD in a car! not only does it crush resale value and give you really crappy gas mileage but most want a "smart luxury" with AWD, because as anyone knows, a V8 and RWD is suicide anytime the weather turns lousy!

real true luxury doesn't solely rest in V8 and RWD platforms! true luxury is what the quality and reliability of a car is as a whole!

backy

If the E Class' old suspension design were sufficient, there would be no need for any changes/improvements for 2010.

Hyundai improves the Genesis - that's a sign of weakness in your eyes. They should have gotten every detail of their first luxury sedan sold in the US perfect right from the start, and no changes should ever be needed. In fact, the longer Hyundai waits to make improvements (like 8 years perhaps), the better it is.

MB improves the E Class - that's a good thing in your eyes. Even though the E Class is decades old as a model, there is still room for improvement.

Am I the only one who sees a double standard here?

smarty666

backy you and I are just wasting our time defending Hyundai and Acura and other companies because to all these other posters, unless its a BMW or Mercedes everything else is inferior or "wannabe luxury" or "pretend luxury" etc!

let them continue to spend their thousands upon thousands of extra dollars for the same equipment and technology on their over rated, over priced BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc! it makes them feel better to try and put down the competition by calling them inferior or "near luxury" etc etc because then it doesn't look so bad in their eyes when companies like Acura or Hyundai win luxury awards over them!

I can't wait for gas prices to go back over $4 dollars a gallon and all the luxury V8/RWD vehicles will just be sitting there and can't even be given away because people are going to want things with better fuel economy! yeah, those V8/RWDs will really be super luxurious when the gas prices goes up again and you know they will be by summer! lol, laugh, laugh, laugh!

toye

You know were I stand....Fintail thinks I stand in the middle of a Hyundai showroom!!! lol :P

stever

All the comparisons between Hyundai and Mercedes tends to prove the point it seems.

tjc78

Why does the Genesis have to ride like either the BMW or Lexus?

It doesn't, my point is that, the car is too much of a compromise between cruiser and sport sedan. One size fits all doesn't work in the land of 40K sedans. People will just look elsewhere. Just recently in another Edmund's forum a poster felt the Genesis wasn't quite sporty enough and ended up in a TL, however, really liked the car otherwise. I on the other hand will not buy another Genesis unless they offer a more Lexus/Toyota ride, just my preference.

fintail

That or in a Hyundai office high rise somewhere in suburban Seoul :P

fintail

As time moves on and technology progresses, what was once excellent becomes old and outmoded. My old car has mechanical fuel injection, a weird rear swing axle, and an even weirder slushbox without a torque converter. These remain sufficient for driving in modern traffic - and at the time of introduction were very high technology, but today there are better options. They weren't changed as a reaction to poor tuning in initial models, rather because tech simply moved on.

It took 8 years for technology to advance enough for MB to justify a complete change, which is typical for their product life cycle. So many others wish they could be so lucky.

An immediate change right after the introduction of a much-heralded new model is not a sign everything was properly thought out. Some here do seem to think H can do no wrong and any criticism is unwarranted and taboo. Sorry. No double standard.

backy

Actually I am not "defending" anything. I'd just like to see a little more common sense, fairness, and logic applied to the discussion. Maybe I am asking too much.

I agree with you about what could happen to the V8 luxury market when gas goes back over $4 a gallon. One more reason Hyundai won't sell many Equus V8 sedans here. IMO the big-engined cars are a dying breed. RWD, though, that can continue; it's possible to get good fuel economy from a V6/I6 or GDI I4 RWD car. And with Hyundai and soon BMW leading the way with GDI 4-cylinder applications in the US (coming soon to the 5 Series for example), I don't see many V8s in the future. Maybe it will become the Ultimate Status Symbol of the Very Rich--"I am so rich, I laugh at gas prices!"

Here's a thought: a Genesis sedan with a 2.4L I4 GDI turbo, around 260-270 hp, 35 mpg highway EPA. How would that fare in the marketplace?

backy

If you are saying that neither MB nor any other luxury automaker has ever made a running change to a current design, and thus Hyundai's action to make a running improvement in the Genesis sedan was unprecedented (sorry, Mr. Obama), then I consider your earlier statement that (paraphrased) "Hyundai should have got it right the first time" fair.

But I think if you check history, you will find it is very common for MB and other automakers to make running changes in current designs. For example, why did MB drop Sensotronic mid-gen in the W211? Was it because Sensotronic was such a great braking system? Or maybe the change was related to the recall of nearly 2 million cars with Sensotronic? Relatively speaking, would you say Hyundai's tweak to the suspension of the 2009 Genesis was a bigger deal than MB dropping the trouble-prone Sensotronic system from the E Class and other models?

Unless you think it would have been better for Hyundai to ignore comments from the small minority of owners who complained about the suspension tuning on the 2009 Genesis, and wait until the next redesign in a few years to make changes? Personally I prefer to see a car company react quickly to owner complaints, even if the problem is not perceived by most owners. I see that as a sign of a responsive, customer-focused company. And also a company that knows it can't afford to make any major missteps in its efforts to move upscale.

toye

lol I'm flattered!!!!!!!

fintail

No, I am not saying that. German electronics are notoriously overcomplicated and troublesome, and often receive updates if not phase-outs. But electronic glitches or entire platforms aren't the subject here, suspension tuning is what started this madness

Asking questions while refusing to answer others isn't cool. Nice googling though.

It would have been best for the Genesis suspension to have been adjusted differently (or correctly) to begin with. But it might be tough with never having made a drivers car before.

backy

What started the "madness" is taking an automaker to task for making a change to a car after one model year, to address complaints from some owners, and characterizing it as (paraphrase) "they should have got it right the first time." Yet this is a common occurrence in the industry, with manufacturers of other luxury cars such as MB,

So what is the big deal? And since the vast majority of Genesis owners (based on owner surveys published here) have no issue with the suspension, why do you think the suspension needed "correcting" before the first cars ever left the factory? We could say it would have been better had MB designed their braking system better on the W211 to begin with, or had corrected all of that car's other problems (see link below for a pretty extensive list), only some of which are for electronics, to begin with... but they didn't. MB waited four years to correct most of them, until the 2006 mid-gen refresh.

http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/46060-summary-w211-problems-fixes.htm- - l

It would be great if the Genesis would have been perfect in its first year, right out of the gate, with no tweaks needed until its next redesign. But that's not realistic, and certainly not common. In fact, compared to some luxury cars, the issues with the Genesis (e.g. lack of a passenger seat cooler seems to be the biggest complaint in owner reviews at Edmunds.com) pale in comparison.

And I didn't see any questions from you in your post to which I replied. Did you have an (on-topic) question that I can help you with?

fintail

No, what started the madness was my implying that the Equus wouldn't drive perfectly because the Genesis had suspension complaints when it was new and H has no history making any kind of performance vehicle. I dared to say H might not get something 100% right off the bat. Evil 'ol me :shades:

Why would H have changed the suspension if there was no real issue? H acts only with logic, right? It seems H did think the suspension needed "correcting", and it apparently did so. Didn't it?

Why is the obsolete W211 suddenly worthy some kind of comparison here?
I have no problems admitting the old thing could be very glitchy - it's one of the models I have no desire to own. You're a good googler. Nice red herring.

I still can't get a link to the cars H has tuned.

toye

Before the Genesis was sold in the US the insiders reported that the Genesis was supposed to have adaptive curse control. When they announced the specs that feature was not part of any package. The reason for it was that Hyundai was not satisfied with the product and that they needed more time and research to fine tune the feature. Once they were satisfied they announced it in the 2010 model year. My point is that if they had rushed this fairly new technology into the Genesis in 2009 they would probably would have had an above average complaints. Hyundai is shrew and is obsessed with quality control. If the suspension was off (as some owners have suggested) they tweet it in early 2009. I personally had no suspension issues with my Genesis (it was made in 3-09)They didn't wait. Same goes with water drainage on the back end. Some owners were complaining about the excess water dripping into the trunk carpet. What did Hyundai do to remedy this issue? They developed a plastic liner for the bottom of the trunk to protect the lining underneath. Another issue in early Genesis the Lexicon speakers were exposed in the trunk. Again Hyundai quickly developed covers for those speakers and began to to install them in early 2009.

backy

It seems H did think the suspension needed "correcting", and it apparently did so. Didn't it?

Hyundai obviously thought that there were enough owner complaints to warrant a change in the suspension tuning for 2010. Very responsive of them. They didn't wait until, e.g., 2 million cars to be recalled, or four years, to make a change.

I am thinking maybe Hyundai's got it all wrong in their approach to the luxury market. Their problem is, the Genesis is too reliable of a car to be taken seriously as a luxury car. They need to mess it up more. Give it lots of electronic issues. Bad brake design. Bad engine mounts. Pulling to the right. Creaky moonroof. etc. etc. Then owners would chuckle and say, "Ah, what a great car! Just like my Benz!" Instant "room" in the luxury market for the Genesis, as an equal to the best Europe can offer.

Or maybe not. Interesting to ponder, though. Maybe Hyundai should think about that as they get ready to launch the Equus in the USA.

Re how to find a link, google works pretty well. I think there's online tutorials on how to use it, someplace. You could probably find one using... google. Anyway, it took me 10 seconds to find the link with a simple and obvious google search. I know you can do it... if you really want to.

fintail

So maybe, just maybe, it wasn't an imagined issue, and the company is still learning about such details.

The W211 certainly wasn't the best anyone could offer. Rough time for the company, the height of the DCX drama and the cost cutting that went with it. And like the Genesis, it still had/has endless amounts of happy owners. Seems to be past now. And H has had its own recalls...but they seem to be moving past that too.

All of those tuned Hyundais...wow.

captain2

I am thinking maybe Hyundai's got it all wrong in their approach to the luxury market. Their problem is, the Genesis is too reliable of a car to be taken seriously as a luxury car
now this is really really a bunch of BS - you don't want to recognize the reliabilities of Lexus (and even Infiniti/Acura) products?? The Genesis isn't even in the same neighborhood reliability wise (the V8 is merely 'average'). , and likely figures to decline in this respect - just like Hyundai's first effort into the upscale sedan market did in 2007. It was called the Azera.

If you want to contend that the Genesis has been more reliable (to this point) than some of those German sedans, that is probably true - but should'nt it be - it is nowhere near as sophisticated.

captain2

The reason for it was that Hyundai was not satisfied with the product and that they needed more time and research to fine tune the feature.
I doubt very seriously that you KNOW that unless you really do work in Ulsan/Seoul. But a typical PR release - congratulations.
You know that the German sedans - as well as the Japanese ones, have offered adaptive cruise for years now (since 05 on 'lowly' Avalons, for example). Maybe Hyundai isn't quite as good at 'copying' those kind of technologies as you PR guys would like us to believe?

bobad

Sounds to me like someone is furious that Hyundai created a true luxury car for less than they paid for their used MB, and would even beat it in a slalom. Why else would they even be here defending the badge unless it needed defending?

acdii

H has no history making any kind of performance vehicle.

Wait What? Then whats this? It seems to me Hyundai has a very good sports car out there now. Looks like a performance vehicle to me.
Coupe Pikes Peak

As far as the suspension tweaking, that doesn't surprise me. This is a car designed in Korea, where people drive differently, roads are different etc. and sold in the US. There is always a possibility that something that works in one area, doesn't work as well elsewhere. It isn't the first time, and it wont be the last. It is called tweaking, all car manufacturers do it. Look at the Prius, there were so many complaints on handling that they created a touring package to stiffen the ride. It just took Toyota 3 years to do it, Hyundai did it much sooner, is there anything wrong with that? Nope. It just shows Hyundai listens to the people whose money they depend on.

Oh NoES Hyundai may be up there equal to a Mercedes? GASP!!! How will we ever survive! :P

fintail

I paid less for my car than I can even buy a used Genesis sedan for at the moment, and if anyone in one wants to meet me on the track, I'm up for it. Bring it on :shades:

And it's a "Premium" car...per the H website....

fintail

And who built that franken-car? If it can't be bought or isn't made in house with the tech trickling down, it doesn't matter. Nice try, no dice.

Some here seem to imply the Genesis suspension wasn't really tuned poorly, and that just a few whiners complained. Obviously that wasn't the truth, was it?

The "Korean" excuse is also just that, an excuse. Most potential premium cars aren't designed in NA.

Equal...yeah, they both have 4 wheels, an engine, burn gasoline, etc.

captain2

A factory Gen Coupe has NO relation to what Millen might be driving in a hill climb. You can't buy one - betcha for any price and certainly not street legal in any case. The only thing the cars have in common is a fat wallet.

Its like saying that since all those Chevy,Ford,Dodge, and Toyotas are winning NASCAR races on Sundays guess that means we should all be expecting to buy the same thing at the dealers on Mondays? Worked 50+ years ago, - but now not even the respective PR depts think that folks are that gullible. Except in Korea?

How about a break on this seemingly endless (and mindless) PR blitz.

captain2

a Gen 4.6 vs. an E550? I know where my money's going!
the 550 is a lot closer to 400hp and it is a Benz. Anybody want to witness some Korean doorrs gettiong blown off?
No contest, unless, of course, we have Rhys Millen driving the Gen, and Granny Clampett driving the 550.

backy

And H has had its own recalls...but they seem to be moving past that too.

Yes, indeed. In fact, the Genesis sedan has had zero recalls. And re comparisons, to Lexus, one big difference is that the Genesis only accelerates when drivers want it to.

Some here seem to imply the Genesis suspension wasn't really tuned poorly, and that just a few whiners complained. Obviously that wasn't the truth, was it?

If you want the truth (if you can handle the truth, Mr. Cruise), it's that indeed a small percentage of Genesis owners complained about suspension tuning on the 2009 model. So was the 2009 Genesis suspension tuned "poorly" for everyone, or even most owners? Not according to owner reports. Did some people complain about it? Yes.

j2j

IMO there is some slight similarity between those cars from the rear...not so much the side, as my eyes hit the greenhouse first, and they aren't the same. But at least now L has moved on to its own greenhouse, rather than imitating MB.

Not only are the rear fascias very similar (esp. the taillights), the greenhouse and (esp.) the C-pillar are as well.

Looking at it from a 3/4 view, one has to take a closer look to really notice the differences.

Even the front fasicas look a bit alike, esp. if one puts a divider down the Lexus grill.

W/ the LS460, Lexus went w/ a BMW-look, albeit toned down (but the '"Bangle-butt" is still there).

W/ the BMW also going "conservative" on the new 7, the two look similar from the side and rear.

captain2

it's that indeed a small percentage of Genesis owners complained about suspension tuning on the 2009 model.
if this is the case, the WHY did Hyundai feel the need to 'fix' it. I assure you that the Koreans worship the dollar every bit as much as the rest of us (probably more) - they wouldn't seem likely to fix something that (according to you and everybody else) ain't broke - now would they?

j2j

Suspension tuning and handling are directly related.
If H didn't get the Genesis right from the start, I find it "laughable" to believe the company would be able to do so with the Equus, as H itself has virtually no track record of making performance products.

If so - then all the professional reviewers who lauded the BMW X3 for its handling and persecuted it for its rough, jittery ride must be wrong (same goes for reviews of the Acura TSX).

BMW, about 2 years after the introduction of the X3, revised the suspension (as well as the interior - which also got a lot of flack).

Funny how an automaker, known for its performance/handling - couldn't get it right the 1st time on the X3 (and even now, the ride isn't that great).

Also, the Equus is not a performance sedan, it's a luxo cruiser.

And again, there was no issue about the ride in the KDM Genesis w/ the air-adjustable suspension

j2j

What Hyundai really needs to do is define the Genesis. Is it a highway cruiser or sport sedan? Right now its kind of in the middle. Not firm enough for the BMW crowd and not soft enough for the Lexus crowd.

You mean kind of like the Lexus GS or E Class?

Actually, on the Genesis forum, there are more former BMW owners than anything else (granted, exactly scientific).

What Hyundai needs to do is to just keep refining the suspension and actually go ahead and offer a performance variant of the Genesis w/ a firmer suspension-tuning and a supercharged Tau.

captain2

a Genesis sedan with a 2.4L I4 GDI turbo, around 260-270 hp, 35 mpg highway EPA
something's wrong with your math - because you are not going to do this with a large 2 ton sedan with even the most ridiculous EPA trick highway gearing. Or you could get something that is really revolutionary - it's called an E320CDI and it will beat the bejeepers out of your 35 mpg. Not made in Korea, obviously - a bit too cutting edge for those folks?

j2j

That's not an applies to apples comparison. 2010 E-class is a new platform updating an 8 year old car. 2010 Genesis is the same car as the one year older Genesis with some suspension tweaks... because it wasn't done properly upon introduction.

Yes, let's get back to topic, go for it.

How 'bout the fact that the W210 E Class had a no. of running changes since it had numerous issues?

And again, BMW (emphasize BMW) changing the suspension tuning on the X3.

Shame, shame on Mercedes and BMW for not getting it "right" the 1st time.

fintail

A rough ride is not necessarily a problem. Cars that actually handle well - not common for H products admittedly - usually have a harsh ride. Of course, the typical H fanboy might not grasp this.

Professional reviewers...yeah, rest on that.

Would the KDM even realize handling? Or would trying to be soft like Lexus but firm like the Germans be enough?

And how the holy hell does a soft-roader wannabe SUV relate to anything?

j2j

It doesn't, my point is that, the car is too much of a compromise between cruiser and sport sedan. One size fits all doesn't work in the land of 40K sedans. People will just look elsewhere. Just recently in another Edmund's forum a poster felt the Genesis wasn't quite sporty enough and ended up in a TL, however, really liked the car otherwise. I on the other hand will not buy another Genesis unless they offer a more Lexus/Toyota ride, just my preference.

Gotta look at all the nos. and not just your or your friend's preferences.

In 2009, the Genesis outsold every E segment import sedan save the E Class and 5 Series.

It outsold the M, GS and A6 by a 2:1 margin (as for Acura, the RL, and not the TL, is in the E segment).

For those wanting a sportier ride, Hyundai is in development of an entry-level D segment sedan based on a shortened Genesis platform (handling will probably be close to that of the Genesis coupe - which is reportedly a great track car).

For those who want a soft, cushy ride from Hyundai, it will have to be the Equus.

fintail

C pillars are not the same at all. 7er has the Hofmeister kink, the LS has the little upkick at the rear of the windowsill. If anyone mistakes these cars for each other, they probably shouldn't be driving at all.

lemko

Well, NASCAR racers of 50+ years ago had a lot more in common with their civilian cousins than today. About the only thing that's Chevy, Ford, Dodge, or Toyota on today's racers is the engine block. They're all pretty much the same car with a passing exterior resemblance to each make. Today's NASCAR is more about the driver than the car.

fintail

So you can compare a model to a marque. How convenient. Go back and learn how to read, fanboy...specific-to-Genesis recalls were not the context.

H wouldn't have revised the suspension if there wasn't a problem. It required an investment, and H knew it had a problem to address in order to gain or retain cred. It wasn't just a few nit-picks.

captain2

you and I understand this - but acdii thinks Mr. Millen's hill climber is actually a Hyundai.....

j2j

A factory Gen Coupe has NO relation to what Millen might be driving in a hill climb. You can't buy one - betcha for any price and certainly not street legal in any case. The only thing the cars have in common is a fat wallet.

Its like saying that since all those Chevy,Ford,Dodge, and Toyotas are winning NASCAR races on Sundays guess that means we should all be expecting to buy the same thing at the dealers on Mondays? Worked 50+ years ago, - but now not even the respective PR depts think that folks are that gullible. Except in Korea?

Nonetheless, the GenCoupe is still widely regarded as a fun car to throw around the track (can't say that about the factory Chevy, Ford or Toyotas in NASCAR).

fintail

Yes, let's look at 15 year old probematic technology which almost by definition will have teething issues, vs a new car which imitates.

And I'd take an old W210 over any period H product. I also don't recall that car being revised almost immediately after it hit the market.

captain2

GenCoupe is still widely regarded as a fun car to throw around the track
yes it is, the ultimate go-kart (punishing ride by most accounts I've read) and rice rocket and not at all in keeping with Hyundai's supposedly 'luxury' ambitions.

j2j

Yes, let's look at 15 year old probematic technology which almost by definition will have teething issues, vs a new car which imitates.

And I'd take an old W210 over any period H product. I also don't recall that car being revised almost immediately after it hit the market.

LOL!

Then you are a greater fool than you let on (even Mercedes USA execs knew to stay away from the W210).

Aside from the improperly working brake assist (which took years for MB to finally get right), the W210 was plagued w/ problems - ranging from rust to engine failure (‘Straight 6′ 3.2 litre CDI engine) at 60k miles - but most galling were the problems w/ the front suspension coil spring perches which led to the collapse of the front suspension.

Really, the recall list for the W210 is too long to list, and next to Consumer Reports' ratings for the W210, all you see are black circles.

j2j

You would have had a point, if the coupe was supposed to be a luxury vehicle.

Nice attempt at changing the issue - which was Hyundai's ability to manufacture a "performance" auto.

tjc78

In 2009, the Genesis outsold every E segment import sedan save the E Class and 5 Series.

It outsold the M, GS and A6 by a 2:1 margin (as for Acura, the RL, and not the TL, is in the E segment).

That is great for Hyundai, however, IMO it doesn't compete against those cars. The M and RL are long in the tooth and the GS and A6 are hardly volume sellers. As for the E and 5 series outselling the Genesis I guess those buyers feel they are getting something for the 10K price difference?

I own a Genesis and refuse to see it for anything more than a well made, well equipped car from a mainstream manufacturer. It simply is not a BMW/Mercedes for less money like so many here want to think. OTOH if you want to compare it against other 35-40K sedans, it stacks up quite nicely.