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I don't buy the "cares what others think" line, Lexus fanboys have been using that one against the Euros for eons.
It's probably obvious that I think the main luxury market opportunity for Hyundai is the first group of buyers. The second group of buyers will be unlikely to buy any Hyundai at this time, let alone one that costs over $30,000. Unless of course their circle of friends/coworkers/family is open minded and/or includes Hyundai owners. And that is very possible... increasingly probable in fact.
Very well said Backy!!!
Is this a legitimate replacement for the Hyundai Azera? Or a wild concept that will not only never be a luxury car but also never be a sedan of Hyundai's at all for sale to us?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I bought my 2006 Sonata because it was close enough to Camry and Accord for ~$6K less. The Genesis Sedan is close enough to the big Lexus for $10K less. (YMMV)
Suddenly it's not as likely that a Hyundai will be my next car. If they start overcharging like Toyota and Honda, there's no predicting which car I will choose next.
How do you figure they "overcharge" The Corolla, Civic, Accord and Camry are all within the same basic price range as the Fusion, Malibu, Focus, Altima, etc. Yes, the Hyundai MSRP is a bit less and will sell for a little less, however, that is Hyundai's hook. I do agree on one end though.... if Hyundai's are suddenly selling for the same price (comparable equipment) one of two things will happen. Sales will start to drop OR they will continue to improve and then Hyundai can say they have been totally accepted by the public. As for right now IMO they better keep their price advantage.
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you've got to be kidding.
Honda and Toyota vehicles are perennial leaders in 'Cost-to-Own ' studies . Look up things (here on Edmunds or Intellichoice) like the Camry/Corollas, or the Civics/Accords you mention - they are usually cheaper to own over a 5 year period than anything Hyundai produces - primarily because of that bane of the Korean cars existence called resale value. And besides which, those particular cars you mention are also among the best selling cars in the country. So how can they be overpriced???
Rest assured, though, the Koreans worship the dollar every bit as much as the Japanese (if not more). IF Hyundai does realize that they can get more for their products, they will happily raise their prices and be the first in line to screw the consumer - or maybe just you.
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Lincoln would be a good example perhaps of how much perceptions matter in the luxury market. A brand that historically was the definition of the American luxury car (along with Cadillac, of course) but also a brand that has taken a really really big fall lately - their products now limited to Ford rebadges.
To me, Lincoln is probably still a (marginal) luxury brand but is also one with NO luxury products. Subjective, of course - as are my perceptions.
PS The whole idea of an Edge 'blowing away' anything (never mind an RX?) is an interesting contention
That isn't the point. Heck an Elantra can be optioned up enough to have to more "gadgets" than true luxury cars of two decades ago. Luxury is simply not leather, wood, and gadgets. A Silverado or F150 can be optioned to the gills with just about everything known to man. Does that make it luxury? No, IMO not even close.
If you look at the BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus, etc there is still a certain "aura" about those cars that a Genesis, Equus, even a Lincoln MKwhatever can't match. IMO even cars like the TSX, ES350 etc aren't lucury cars either. They are there simply because the dealers can't stay in business selling 70K+ cars.
I challenge anyone to do a simple test. Tell someone you had a Mercedes C-class then tell them you are thinking about trading it for a Hyundai Genesis. I wonder what the reaction would be. Heck, I've told people I went from a Toyota Avalon to a Genesis and have had some interesting reactions. "Times Tough" "A Hyundai" Yes, it happens.
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that, my friend, is a hard concept to sell in 'H fandom', but certainly exactly to the point..
Lincoln is an interesting subject...to those over 40, it probably has some luxury association...for younger people, it is likely more related to the Town Cars that take you to and from the airport.
A limo seems to be a Joe Sixpack fantasy of how a rich man lives.
If you consider your Flex to be a luxury car, then it is. Your mind is what matters, you made the purchase, if you are happy, that's all that counts. Someone else might not feel likewise, but that shouldn't matter to you - their opinions don't shape yours. You can call it what you want, and I am sure you have good reason. And yes, it is less obnoxious than a Lexus.
I think that the badge does have a lot to do with the sales of the smaller BMWs and Benz's. There probably are better choices for 35-40K in non-luxury makes, but a good percentage of the population will choose the C or 3er for that reason. We have a lady here at work that had a beautiful early 2000s Park Av Ultra. She replaced it with a C and I asked her why? She said I really wanted a Mercedes. The other day I heard her complaining how small it was and that her Buick was more comfortable :confuse: .
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How does one purchase aura? By the pound, or by the dozen?
Kidding aside, aura is a state of mind, and worthless to me. Some will pay big bucks for it, so the car makers go to great lengths to create the illusion of aura, panache, fahrvergnügen, etc. It's all sales hype, exactly what the manufacturers want you to think, and I ain't falling for it.
The Buick lady probably made the wrong choice. Something like a C will be too small and taut for her. A 3er would be even worse for her. Maybe she should have bought a nice Genesis :shades:
She did say she liked my car.....
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an E550, a S , 5, or 7 seriesr etc. all hype?. Suggest you drive one for awhile - there's a lot more to cars like that than a silly spec sheet will tell you although it is something that a non-enthusiast would have a problem understanding. To that non-enthusiast an automobile often becomes an appliance - a means of transport from A to B etc. The enthusiast OTH wants to be grinning when he makes that trip and further appreciates a rather unique singularity of purpose that is usually a good part of that 'hype'. And no, it doesn't all have to do with any 'value' in a MB/BMW/L owner looking down his nose at mere Hyundai/Toyota/ Honda owners.
Now whether it's worth (to you) the inreased costs of ownership and/or the higher prices - that is something else again.
You probably missed the recent news item that the 2011 Sonata is ranked #1 in resale value in its class. You have probably also not noticed that the Genesis sedan and coupe are holding their values very well, as are other Hyundais such as the Veracruz, Tucson, and Elantra. Continual improvements to Hyundai's products are having their effect in both pricing (see article I posted yesterday) and resale values.
Times are a changin'.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/2011-hyundai-sonata-gls-tops-popular-com- petitors-including-premium-brands-in-alg-residual-value-index-83845712.html
fintail...this Bud's for you.
Hyundai i-flow sedan concept...the glorious front end view
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I want to know more, more, more! There is something about the...flow of its design that just intrigues me.
fin...come on, man, it was designed in your favorite carmaking nation, Germany. Designed at Hyundai's Germany design headquarters.
Delve in to this pup some more and find me more information. smarty666 and I want to know more about it.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
the new Sonata design and now this, HOLY CRAP :surprise: ! this design is so freakin ridiculous it's not even funny; Hyundai is definitely going to be at the top of my consideration when I'll be ready for a new car in 2-3 years! :shades:
It may have been spawned in a Euro design facility, but the light clusters tell who is paying the bills...
Unique...I will agree with that, and hope it remains unique.
All other things aside, how can anyone predict resale for a brand new model hardly on the roads for a month?
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You really want to sit there and tell me that a 1 year old Sonata fetches more money than a similarly optioned 1 year old Accord? No freaking way. I'll believe it when that Accord, for example, isn't cheaper to own than a Sonata is according to TCO sources etc., info. hopefully not gleaned from stupid press releases.
Of course they don't know what a Sonata is going to be worth several years from now. Heck, we don't know that Hyundai (or anybody else) won't start having electronic gremlin problems like you-know-who and the whole brand would tank - just like Toyotas resales are being hurt.
One thing is likely, though, all mfgrs that compete with Toyota will likely see a surge in sales as well as resale values.
http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2010/03/03/hyundai-i-flow-hybrid-concept-c- ar-press-release-and-images/
True, also GM and Nissan got bitten.
I play cars like the stock market. I try to buy quality cars on bad news and sell on good news. I think I see a Toyota in my future.
tongue firmly in cheek???
My wife and I happen to use a recalled Toyota product as daily drivers - neither she (nor I) am particulary worried about it simply because whatever's happening is still extremely rare relative to the millions of supposedly defective vehicles out there.
I am not convinced yet that this is really a bad accelerator pedal at all, as opposed to an unusual sequence of events that 'confuses' the car's computer. I'm not sure that Toyota really knows either. But if this is what it is, I would be willing to bet we will see the same thing happen to other mfgrs.
Since the article has good news about Hyundai, it is obviously "suspicious" in your mind. Never mind that this same content was covered in multiple news channels--I just happened to pick the link for the PRNewsWire version.
Absolutely not. I've owned 3 Toyotas, (my most recent is a 2008 Tacoma), and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another if the price is fair.
I think the recall thing is a panic reaction at best, a bunch of hooey at worst. When you sell a gajillion cars a year, chances are a few will have a flaky driver. Sure, maybe there was a handful that malfunctioned in some unpredictable manner, but that's what, .005%? Every .001% improvement in odds of failure probably adds hundreds to the price of the car.
see post #5260 - you didn't read my posts (5259 & 5260) did you?
Residuals is more than a major part of TCO, in these days of minimal or non-existent repair bills the only other thing that can really effect TCO other than resale values is mfgr sudsidized financing.
Actually it does figure that things like the Sonata would start doing better from a resale value perspective, as I noted. If for no other reason the supply/demand, that used Sonata becomes more marketable, if those comparable brands are becoming less so.
I freely admit that Hyundai's brand rep and products are improving and never have said otherwise. I would not be surprised if public perceptions of the brand might be better than the D3 brands (maybe on a level with Ford right now, but better than either of the other two) and even just behind the way CR has the brand currently ranked - just behind Honda and Toyota. That is a helluva improvement if you think of where those perceptions were 10 short years ago.
HOWEVER, I still believe it has a long way to go before Hyundai is thought of highly enough that average Joe autobuyer will consider Hyundai a viable entry into the 'luxury' market. Much like tjc78 notes, Hyundai (rightly or wrongly) is still thought of as a second tier mfgr IMO. As history illustrates, time can certainly change all that - but for right now - a mass market brand and a 'luxury' brand is a contradiction in terms.
exactly how the J3 did it back in 1990, and a formula that has been shown to work. IMO, though, and somewhere along the line, Hyundai should have to recognize the American autobuyers often silly brand consciousness.
If they want instead to establish Kia as there mainstream brand, then there can't be $10 or $15k Accents or Elantras or even $20k Sonatas, those type of cars would need to be exclusively Kia. And further they would need to seriously upgrade their Hyundai branded dealerships, and get some folks working at them that have IQs higher than their body temperatures.
It would seem easier (and possibly even cheaper) to build those new dealerships, hire the appropriate sales and service people, and call them instead Genesis'. I have always thought of Hyundai products incidentally as Toyota wannabes (that is not necessarily a bad thing -even these days) and NOT as anything performance related, just like Toyota products.
I agree. Hyundai is not a luxury brand. It may never be a "luxury" brand in the way you think of such a brand. It is a brand that offers a wide range of vehicles, from entry-level cars to luxury cars. As has been discussed here, there are other brands with a similar range of products--Audi, BMW, and MB for example, which offer entry-level vehicles starting in the mid-$20s as well as super-luxury vehicles selling for close to $100k or more. None of these brands is a "luxury" brand per se, because they also offer non-luxury vehicles. There are few true "luxury" brands--Bentley and Rolls-Royce are two examples.
As other companies have proven, and as Hyundai is proving again now, it IS possible for a brand to sell luxury vehicles while at the same time offering a broad range of vehicles. It is not necessary that a brand offer ONLY luxury vehicles in order to successfully sell luxury vehicles.
Tell that to Mazda with the Millenia and VW with the Phaeton. To be taken seriously in the brand-concious world you can't have both mainstream and luxury. There is a reason the TL and ES350 are outselling the Genesis and its most likely not because they are better cars.
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Since exclusivity has been touted by some here as a pre-req for luxury car status, isn't the fact that the Genesis is more rare than the likes of the TL and ES350 a good thing?
isn't the fact that the Genesis is more rare than the likes of the TL and ES350 a good thing?
In some ways, absolutely. I certainly see more of those cars then the Genesis. Actually the Genesis is so rare in South Jersey, I think in the last month I have seen a total of 3. I kinda like that. However, for the sake of our argument the fact that the Genesis isn't outselling it similar priced competitors to me says "there ISN'T room in the....."
If the Genesis were priced at $70k right off the bat, it too would have been a failure.
Personally, I don't know what Hyundai's sales expectations were for this model. Who are we to say it was a success or not? I had no problem getting mine under invoice with a heavily subsidised lease including a $1000 rebate. That tells me they needed to move more than they were.
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But I do know you could have gotten nice discounts on the TL or ES350 or most any luxury car in the past year. A $1000 rebate was actually very small for this class of car, in these times.
I never said it was a failure. However, by the same token, any car that needs incentives to move isn't lighting the world on fire in terms of sales. Hyundai (as well as the domestic 3) have long been using creative financing and rebates to sell cars. The reason I specifically mentioned the Genesis is when they first came onto the scene there were dealer markups, etc. That went away awful fast.
As far as I know there weren't any rebates on the TL or ES when I was shopping, and I just did a quick check and didn't see any now.
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think you overestimate the negative impact of the FWD but nonetheless - the Millenia was designed and built to be an Amati - a new luxury brand following in the footsteps of Acura primarily (which, of course, also retained the FWD) . It was not cheap at the time ($30k+) and did have levels of fit/finish and quality of materials befitting the Amati it was supposed to be., and far superior to the mainstream 626s and even the 929s you mention.
It 'failed' as a luxury car simply because folks weren't spending that kind of jack on something with a Mazda label, Mazda had nowhere near the quality rep that J3 Cos had, and lastly because Mazda was a mass market brand that could not be perceived as a luxury anything - and it never became one. An unfortunate fate for what was a pretty damn good effort (esp with the Miller Cycle engine). And then, of course we can bring up the infamous (and more current) Phaeton which meets every conceivable physical spec for a 'luxury car' and watch it fail as well primarily because of the VW label. And then you wonder what could happen to something called an Equus, if Hyundai does choose to market it as a 'Hyundai'?
Isn't this the same thing Hyundai faces - even with something to market that is arguably superior to what that Millenia was. :confuse: And now they think they will get bites into something called an Equus, despite what happened to VW. A luxury buyer invaraibly wants some recognition for what he spent a whole lot of money on - not folks shaking their heads behind his back saying things like 'you spent $50 grand on what?!' $50k for a Hyundai badged product? with the way people still think of Hyundai? Think not...
PS the ESs and TLs outsell the Genesis because folks are buying a badge more than they are buying the car, The Gen sedan gets its sales for folks buying the car, not the brand - there is a world of difference. It does kinda illustrate the influeence of a brandname though doesn't it? This is what differentiates the luxury brand from the pretenders - and yes, BTW, TRUE luxury cars all have what is perceived to be a 'luxury brand'.
this may be true - but compared to what - the $0 on a ES or TL?? Not to mention a negotiated (and otherwise unsubsidized) OTD price higher than the Gen. Hyundai continues to fight the problem that buyers EXPECT big discounts if they buy Korean cars (much in the same way they now expect it with D3s). They expect the extra warranties, they expect the 'Assurance' programs - or whatever gimmicks Ulsan can come up with. If they are shopping the Lexus or the Acura, they should be expecting to drive it home (incl TTL) for some number closer to what it says on the window.
Maybe it is when the same can be said for shopping a Hyundai product, that Ulsan ought to get serious about establishing a luxury brand - and selling a true luxury car.