Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

fintail

I wouldn't name either. I love my cars and I am OCD about their care...but I've never named one.

I saw a Genesis coupe AND a sedan yesterday, first time I have seen both the same day.

fintail

Aren't all luxury vehicles on the road "pre-owned"? No matter what it is, sign the papers and drive it for a couple hours, and it's a used car :shades:

iluvmysephia1

when I was mentioning primarily girls naming their rigs(including luxury cars) I was really focusing on the fact that it can tend to be rigs that are more used than new cars just driven off the lot. Tends to be a girly thing. But do fess up if you're a guy that does this sort of thing. We promise not to throw any cyber-stones. :shades:

houdini1

That only applies to Mercedes and other lower tier luxury cars, certainly not Lexus !!

stever

Maybe it's a non-OCD thing. I don't proactively maintain my cars and dings barely get my notice.

My current rides aren't named, but after a few years, I wound up calling my '82 Tercel "Ol' Red".

When we go out to the garage, it's do we take "the Subie" or "the van".

I could see a lot of Ginny's running around. Don't know what to use for a vanity plate for an Equus. EQ? Blinded? Horsey?

backy

Yes, good point. Everyone drives a used car! Which is another reason I have gravitated to used cars of late. It's very easy to find used cars with low mileage that have all the latest safety and convenience features, look and drive just like new, and in some cases have warranties that are better than when the car was new. For around 50-60% of the cost of a new car. (Plus insurance and license fees are lower.)

I was actually hoping, selfishly, that the Genesis sedan's resale value would not hold up that well and I could snag one in a year or two for around $15k. That looks less likely now, as the resale values seem to be holding up pretty well, and I expect prices of new ones will creep up, as they did for 2010. That is good for Genesis owners, but bad for someone looking to steal one as a used car. I think those halcyon days of getting gently used Hyundais for a song might be ending in the not too distant future, as the quality and reputation of the cars continues to improve, driven by the Genesis, right now the 2010 Tucson and 2011 Sonata, and soon the Equus.

acdii

That is so true and very very surprising to me, I thought I would be stuck with the Veracruz until it was paid for, thinking the resale would be very low, but in reality, it was worth every penny I paid for it. I came out of it as if I had leased it, not owing a penny more for it than a lease when I traded it, actually having a slight positive equity, and not a negative one. I am pretty well certain that I will be upside down on both of my Fords, even though one is at 0% interest, but something tells me both of these will be getting a lot of use over the next 5 years. We now have to flip a coin to decide on which one to drive, we enjoy driving both of them.

fintail

We think the same. The mint pre-owned car is much smarter money than buying it new. I didn't buy my car new, but it has nearly all of the features of a new model...the unwashed think it is new or nearly so...and the original owner got to lose about 2/3 of his investment.

Used Genesis values won't be reasonable until the car has been out for awhile and/or it sells in higher volumes. Right now it has been on the market for ~18 months, right? And they have a high satisfaction level...so few people will be trading them in. Low supply, and just enough demand from curious people to make for high resale. But with all newcomers, that won't last forever, especially if the design changes or there is some super new variant put on the road.

fintail

Well, most Lexus couldn't be called "pre-driven" anyway :P

fintail

I have a friend who occasionally calls my old car "Christine"...but just because I only listen to oldies in it. Sadly, the car doesn't restore itself.

He also has a name for his car...maybe it's just a personality quirk for some.

I wonder what could name a Genesis.

backy

Worf?

iluvmysephia1

how about Jenny?

Man, that 'Christine' movie sure left an impact on a lot of people. Something about cars and the fact that at times they seem to have minds of their own. Especially when our particular "backyard mechanic" antics backfire on us! Back in the day, that is.

My '65 Ford Mustang sometimes refused to start. I would take my screwdriver, open up the hood and bonk the starter solenoid with the handle end of the screwdriver. Close the hood, turn the ignition key and Viola'! She'd purr like a kitten. But, here's where 'Christine' could come in. Buying a new starter solenoid and installing it properly didn't seem to help the situation. :confuse:

Still needed the 'bonk' of the screwdriver handle...sometimes. Only when the 'Stang decided it needed the 'help!'

kingsalmon

Wow! Is backy and finny actually getting along???

There is a God after all!

Bless you guys! Haha!

kingsalmon

Hey! Smarty, Houdini, i<3sephia, acdii, Steve, and Snake wanna get in on the love???

bobad

Hey! Smarty, Houdini, i3sephia, acdii, Steve, and Snake wanna get in on the love???

I would like to join in, but I'm afraid of losing my Man Card.

On family cars being an investment: Cars are definitely an investment, but not a financial investment in the purest definition of the word. Some cars are a better investment than others, depending on the owner's situation. I've heard of job seekers borrowing or renting
a nice car just to go on a job interview.

On naming cars: I've never once named a vehicle I owned, though I did try to learn a few miscellaneous Teutonic curse words to call them. When I was very young, I named an old Chevy owned by my future wife's friend "Old Rusty". It fit so perfectly I couldn't help it.

acdii

I have been burned too many times on used cars, plus financing rates are much higher on used, that buying new can be a better choice depending on the car. It is also hard to find some newer used cars, like the Genesis example, same held true for the Veracruz and the 2010 Fusion and Flex that I have now. I probably could have bought a used Camry Hybrid, but the used prices at the time were too close to new, so it was just a better idea to get a new one. Now had I been looking for an expensive car, like a MB, an 8 YO S600 could have been had for less than I paid for the Camry, though interest rates would have been near double what I got on the Camry. So in that case, the MB would have still cost me more than the Camry in the long run, add on the cost of repairs, and it gets to be a scary process.

And yes I name my cars, The 2010 Sport reminds me a lot of my first Crown Vic which was a rocket, so I call her Vicky, the kids named the Flex Cinny, and my F350 is Rolling Thunder II, I had a 67 Chevy C30 with a 292 straight 6 with a straight pipe and glass pack and is sounded like thunder rolling through a valley when you took your foot off the gas, so it earned the name Rolling Thunder, my F350 has a 5" exhaust, all straight pipe, and it too rolls like thunder in a valley. When I had a Prius I called it the TARDUS, the Camry was called POS, but the full spelling IYKWIM. I never named the Veracruz, nor did anyone else have a name for it, it was just the Veracruz. A car has to have some kind of personality to earn a name. Without one, it just is what it is.

fintail

I like tuned highline cars, so I haven't bought new...even if I could work my way into affording the ones I like, I doubt I would do it as the initial depreciation is just to steep to ignore. I also put a large amount down and finance for a short term, so I don't worry about a couple APR points. I look at it almost like someone subsidizing my ability to buy a car I like. The maintenance is much more intensive than a normal car, but I haven't had an unreliable one, and I have no regrets. I get to drive rare and cool for the price of beige. I wouldn't touch any V12 MB unless it was an AMG - then at least you get something extra for the expense of keeping it on the road. The S600 is a car for someone who has so much money they just don't care, or for corporate-owned writeoff cars. Those cars can't be compared directly to the real world...and V12 BMWs fare just as poorly.

Nice normal vanilla reliable cars will always lead in resale value. I expect the next Sonata to fare well, especially if it can be kept away from any massive fleet deals.

Oh yeah...my first car, a 66 Galaxie, was named 'the bluesmobile' by my friends...although it had no resemblance to the movie car...it was dark blue, that did it.

fintail

Worf and Jenny look good. I have to wonder if the Genesis has attracted any Star Trek fan buyers?

I've had my old car since I was a teenager...it has a huge sentimental attachment now, but still no name.

toye

In the long run having the past Sonatas in fleets may have been a good thing!! Why? Because it got people into a Hyundai that normally would not have considered the brand because of the old reputation. The Sonata was a good representation!

houdini1

Yep, you can put me in with the late model used luxury car buyers. If I was going to buy a small economy car I would probably buy a new Hyundai or Kia. So everybody pucker up !!

bobad

I would buy a used 4 series Lexus, but I'm not brave enough to buy a used German car. I'm the kind of guy that takes full responsibility for my actions. If I buy a car that is constantly in the shop, I blame and beat myself up for buying it. Of course I will steer clear of that brand until I'm satisfied the troubles are behind it.

fintail

I've seen some pretty bland strippo Sonatas in local fleets...but some nicely equipped ones too. I think it depends on luck of the draw. I once had a Spectra rental car....I suppose it was a competent appliance, but it didn't make me want to buy one.

The pre-2011 Sonata received a hilariously bad review by 'Top Gear', so not everyone loves it. I think it makes an Accord look exciting.

fintail

I will have a hard time buying a normal new car so long as late model highlines remain affordable.

I suppose an Elantra would be livable as a commuter, but the H-K smaller cars probably wouldn't have me jumping for joy. If I was to venture into that market, I would probably wait to see the Fiesta before I bought.

houdini1

I agree. I have had a 2006 LS 430 going on 1.5 years now and it has been flawless thru 47,000 miles. Only 20,000 of those miles are mine. It was a CPO so I still have 1.5 years left and up to 100,000 miles.

kingsalmon

I would like to join in, but I'm afraid of losing my Man Card.

Hey bobad,

As self proclaimed man card commissioner I declare that you can join in without any threat to your man card status! Join in bro! I found that we argue too much on this forum... I would like to celebrate the times that we can come together in agreement! Join in on the fun! You'll be the bro of all bro's! I do miss those beer commercials with the man card theme. LOL... I don't drink beer at all, but gotta love their commercials though! that's my tipsy blush!

bobad

I declare that you can join in without any threat to your man card status! Join in bro! I found that we argue too much on this forum... I would like to celebrate the times that we can come together in agreement! Join in on the fun!

That's a relief, so I can say it: I llllluuuu... Oh, never mind. I just not the type.

I really don't argue, I just state my case, and the facts as I guess them.

I've never meant any ill will to anyone, and don't recall many who have. It's hard to believe, but I'm usually smiling ear to ear while reading and writng on this thread. I think most of us are. Life's too short to fight.

iluvmysephia1

and would actually thank the whole bunch a you's for helping me to learn so much more about cars than I thought I knew. I think most of us get reminded often enough that we know more about cars than the "average bear" as financial radio guru Bruce Williams always says.

I kinda hinted at that with fin the other day. He knows more than I do about luxury cars, but that just means that when I want to I can come on here and learn more. I want to know and understand why Hyundai isn't already in the luxury mode with their Genesis sedan, for instance.

So far I'm with the camp that Hyundai has found room in the luxury market and is enjoying some early success there. I think they're driven enough to not let it go to their heads, though. They'll keep pressing on and learning and doing better next time. That's what they and Kia just continue doing year over year.

fintail

All of us here know something that someone else doesn't know...we all have something to learn. I am an enthusiast of one make in particular, and I know about some others. Funny thing, a large amount of the cars I like from that particular make aren't really "luxury" cars at all. My E55 isn't really even fully there...it has nappa leather, exotic wood, gadgets...but also a harsh ride for a car of its size and style, and a little more noise than the coddled types would like.

As "luxury" is subjective, one can easily say H is in the luxury market...and one can say H isn't there. That's what makes this thread so involving, and why it has over 5000 posts. It's a fun subject.

bobad

As "luxury" is subjective, one can easily say H is in the luxury market...and one can say H isn't there. That's what makes this thread so involving, and why it has over 5000 posts. It's a fun subject.

Agree 100%. Both sides have valid arguments.

There have only been a handful who say Hyundai has never produced a luxury car, and never will. As usual, the most extreme positions have been the only source of hostility on this thread.

stever

I ran across a link a couple of days ago that I can't find now, but the upshot was that someone was ranking luxury cars. Their starting baseline was that a car had to have a list price of $45,000 to qualify.

That would knock out the Genesis (and they didn't compare it to the other cars in their list).

Of course, you can find top 10 lists all over for "best luxury car under $50,000" or $40,000.

fintail

Price could be used if the person making the claim could justify a given price point. I wouldn't hold my breath for that. It's probably more of a tool by hack journalists to make an easy story :shades:

fintail

For some, it will never be a luxury car so long as it wears a swoopy H. It's an opinion, and shouldn't create hostility. If one buys a given car for its 'luxury' features and the car delivers on those, the opinions of those on the sidelines shouldn't matter. It's all subjective.

bobad

For some, it will never be a luxury car so long as it wears a swoopy H.

That's your opinion. "The earth is flat" is also an opinion.

Opinions can be stubbornly held in the face of hard, measurable facts. I believe luxury is measurable and reproducible. I do not believe it's a state of mind.

fintail

Yep, that's an opinion. Being such, it shouldn't draw ire.

One can put leather, wood, nav and other gadgetry, a refined engine, etc, in a Camcord. Is it then truly a luxury car? To many buyers, yes. To many enthusiasts, no.

If luxury is in fact quantifiable, it must also be an evolving standard, as some of what was in highline cars 20 years ago can be found in lowline commuter cars today.

bobad

If luxury is in fact quantifiable, it must also be an evolving standard, as some of what was in highline cars 20 years ago can be found in lowline commuter cars today.

The line between top line and luxury has always been fuzzy.

backy

At the risk of getting blasted by Lexcura fans, you described pretty much what Toyota and Honda did to create their entry-level luxury models, at least in the past. Then they sold them under their luxury brands. Hyundai created an all-new car, one with attributes normally associated with luxury cars, but elected to sell it under the Hyundai brand. Which is the luxury car? The one with the "luxury" brand name? Or the one that looks/drives/performs like a luxury car?

iluvmysephia1

At the risk of getting blasted by Lexcura fans, you described pretty much what Toyota and Honda did to create their entry-level luxury models, at least in the past. Then they sold them under their luxury brands. Hyundai created an all-new car, one with attributes normally associated with luxury cars, but elected to sell it under the Hyundai brand. Which is the luxury car? The one with the "luxury" brand name? Or the one that looks/drives/performs like a luxury car?

That's what I'm talkin' about. I was in Scottsdale the other day, a "rich" burb of Phoenix. I don't recall seeing any Genesis sedans. I did see a lot of BMW's, Acura's, Infiniti's, etc. Even saw an old, white Jaguar for sale by the side of the road for $25,000.

Appeared to have all the knobs and switches intact. Twas an old 4-door sedan that appeared to be in reasonable shape.

Would I have even noticed the Genesis sedan while we were out walking around Scottsdale streets? Those roads were busy with lots of traffic.

toye

I got my registration in the mail yesterday and my registration shot up to $100.96 up nearly $60.00 from my Azera last year.

The State Florida offically recognizes the Genesis as a luxury vehicle. That's why its charging so much!!

No more denials on this blog anymore !!!! LOL

captain2

believe luxury is measurable and reproducible. I do not believe it's a state of mind.
if that's the case then obviously anybody could make a luxury car and further things like brand perceptions and reputations would obviously make no difference.
BMWs, MBs , and Lexii of the world are luxury cars not only because of quantifiable characteristics of specific cars they produce but they are also luxury cars because people think they are - something that is largely reinforced by a pricing structure that discourages commonality as well as specific sales locations that further enhance that exclusivity.
A luxury car must also be perceived as prestiguous IMO - perceptions being something that is well beyond any sort of 'measure'. As fintail suggests it ultimately becomes quite subjective.
Hyundai is not currently a prestigous brand and therefore also not a luxury brand , and will likely have a hard time becoming one as long as it chooses to also produce and sell products in the lower extremes of the market.
The fact that a Gen sedan may be a perfectly wonderful (and quite luxurious) vehicle is not the point. There are many many 'upscale' products by a number of mass market mfgrs that have exactly the same 'problem'.

bobad

if that's the case then obviously anybody could make a luxury car and further things like brand perceptions and reputations would obviously make no difference.
BMWs, MBs , and Lexii of the world are luxury cars not only because of quantifiable characteristics of specific cars they produce but they are also luxury cars because people think they are - something that is largely reinforced by a pricing structure that discourages commonality as well as specific sales locations that further enhance that exclusivity.
A luxury car must also be perceived as prestiguous IMO -

What you're saying there is absolutely true for a small segment of the population. I belong to a much larger segment of the population that has different beliefs, and refuse to let the tail wag the dog. Why should a ~60% demographic let a ~10% demographic dictate purist or enthusiast standards to them?

Your demographic is "enthusiast" or "purist". Mine is "Those who can afford a European luxury car, but don't think it's worth it"

fintail

Where do you get this data re: beliefs of certain parts of the population and how many believe what?

fintail

Or neither?

It's all in the eye of the beholder, no matter how irate and defensive some on this thread will react...

fintail

So who determines what is luxury, what do they use, and where can this data be found?

bobad

So who determines what is luxury, what do they use, and where can this data be found?

I'm part of the vast middle class. Those of us who don't waste our money can easily afford a European luxury sedan.

Purists are a tiny niche. Look at MT and C&D subscribers and you find far more than in the general population.

fintail

I must be misreading something, I see no data there.

Who determines luxury? What measurements do they use? Who determines when relative measurements change? And why should these people be seen as credible? Where is this data about demographic perceptions of cars? Who determines what is "wasted" money? Why should the opinions of non-purists count in a forum for enthusiasts? I couldn't care less about the opinion of Lexus drivers when it comes to performance.

It's ALL SUBJECTIVE!!!

Get over it. Some people don't see things as you do, just as they don't see things as I do. If they don't see a Genesis as a luxury car, then to them it is not.

captain2

What you're saying there is absolutely true for a small segment of the population
a good part of what makes a luxury car what it is, is that they only sell to a small segment of the population.
Call them enthusiasts or purists or whatever you'd like but they are folks that want what they perceive as the best, and are willing to pay for it. Their idea of 'value' is much different than yours, perhaps.

bobad

Get over it. Some people don't see things as you do, just as they don't see things as I do. If they don't see a Genesis as a luxury car, then to them it is not.

I belong to a much larger demographic than you, so YOU get over it.

Edmunds is not an enthusiast site, though there are doubtless many enthusiasts among us.

fintail

Still no data, shocking! :P

How do you know my demographic, and how do I know yours? People can claim funny things on this interwebz thing :shades:

Anyone who is going to spend time discussing these minor facets of autodom are enthusiasts in some way.

bobad

Still no data, shocking!

Google is your friend, lazy boy! You want it, you can go get it.

backy

Who determines luxury?

That's easy. The buyer determines what is luxury, to them, and what is not. At least, that is true for buyers who are independent thinkers and buy what they think is the best car for their needs and wants. There are also buyers who are greatly swayed by what others will think of their purchase, so buying a car that will be well received by friends/coworkers/family is very important to them.

It's probably obvious that I think the main luxury market opportunity for Hyundai is the first group of buyers. The second group of buyers will be unlikely to buy any Hyundai at this time, let alone one that costs over $30,000. Unless of course their circle of friends/coworkers/family is open minded and/or includes Hyundai owners. And that is very possible... increasingly probable in fact.

Check out this article from USA Today today:

Hyundai manages to raise both its prices and its sales

A funny thing has been happening at Hyundai.

The brand known for cheap cars has quietly inched up its sticker prices closer to those of competitors. The cars are still cheaper, but not by as much &#151; and the South Korean automaker is selling more vehicles than ever at those prices.

"The consumer perception is that Hyundai is a value play, but in reality, it's really getting up to parity with Toyota and Honda," said George Peterson of consultants AutoPacific.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-03-02-hyundai02_ST_N.htm