Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

backy

This is the kind of thing where actually seeing up close and driving the cars can help (recognize them). Is there a Hyundai driving event coming near you? If so, there's your chance to drive the Genesis.

fintail

I'd love that...they'd probably have a restraining order on me for the way I'd drive it, especially if it was a V8 :shades:

I wonder if the electronannies can be disabled enough to drift it....

Sadly, from what I can tell, the closest event to me is in LA...and I'm not going there.

tjc78

I wonder if the electronannies can be disabled enough to drift it....

Nope... even when you switch the ESC off its only partly "off". However, on the Genesis forum there are a few people that have "hacked" the system and had some fun!

Burnout!

lemko

Did you see the new M-B commercial that states "Is heritage defined by a quarter mile or a quarter of a century?" It kind of brought this forum to mind. They showed some older M-B cars in the commercial that I thought you'd have found interesting.

fintail

Nice video, that's what I like to see. If you can't do that, what's the point of having a V8? :shades:

fintail

I saw one a while ago that has a new E-class going by an oncoming Ponton, is that it?

I believe heritage is a theme that can be used in the upper end of the market.

backy

What each company needs to do is emphasize its strengths. For MB in particular, that is heritage. For Infiniti, they are emphasizing high-tech features lately. BMW emphasizes its sporty demeanor. Audi is positioning itself as the less-boring alternative to MB and Lexus. And Hyundai aka New Kid on the Block is doing whatever they can to get people to sit up and notice, and drive their cars.

fintail

I think innovation and global prestige can be used as a strength by MB along with heritage...so many features taken for granted today were pioneered or put in to first large scale production by that firm. It's a legacy with a huge value even today. Heritage can sell...not unlike why Buick sells in China.

Audi is in a funny position...without Quattro, its products don't offer anything special aside from looks, and there are still several models which can be had with 2WD. Quattro really needs to be standard on all models, even if it opposes the huge profit margin German style ala carte option scheme.

Hyundai is doing whatever it can to get people to look, for sure.

sweendogy

check acura--

anythngbutgm

"Nissan, Hyundai reportedly duking it out for No. 2 Asian automaker in U.S."

fintail

I can't stand to look at them :shades:

tenpin288

and never visit a dealer--USA Today

captain2

a real good idea if you have dealers like Hyundai has, also keeps those supposed Equus customers out of the same room with those Accent buying fast food workers. I guess the next step is remove any 'H' badging - hmmm - maybe Hyundai is beginning to understand - there is no place for them in the luxury market after all

toye

Pretty snobby comment from just a Avalon owner

captain2

Pretty snobby comment
you're right about that - but those 'snobs' are what make the luxury market well, the luxury market - like it or not. Without product differentiation and recognition there can be no luxury market - it goes well beyond any particular car, and how outwardly 'luxurious' that car may be.

tjc78

Without product differentiation and recognition there can be no luxury market

I know I've said this before.... but take two women's purses identical in every way. Put the little "Cs" on one and put a generic logo on the other. The "C" one will sell for $300 at fancy boutique stores, the other at $39.99 at JCPenney.

Its not much different in the luxury car market. Right now the Genesis, and soon to Equus are the JCpenney purse. Nothing wrong with them and fine at what they do, but not exclusive enough to be a luxury item (simply for the "snob" factor).

jlindh

I'm curious as to the number of buyers that would include either "exclusivity" or "snob factor" as criteria in deciding which cars are to be considered luxury cars. They are certainly not on my list of qualifications.

If everyone drove a Maybach, they certainly would not be exclusive and the snob factor would be gone. They'd still be luxury cars though.

backy

I think there's two aspects to "luxury": intrinsic and extrinsic. The intrinsic aspects are those that make something "luxurious" to the owner. Those can be different for each owner. Some might equate rich interiors with luxury. Others, powerful engines. Others, lots of convenience features. And so on. So for one car buyer, a Jetta with leather interior, turbo or V6 engine, moonroof, Blaupunkt stereo, etc. could be a luxury car. For someone else, only something with the sumptuousness of a Rolls/Bentley/Maybach qualifies as luxury.

The extrinsic aspect of luxury is what OTHERS think about the car we own and drive. So if they don't think it's a luxury car, it's not. And the owner cares a LOT about others thinking that they drive a luxury car.

Some definitions of "luxury" from the Web:

* something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
* lavishness: the quality possessed by something that is excessively expensive
* wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living
* a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
* free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the french Riviera.
* a pleasure out of the ordinary allowed to oneself: the luxury of an extra piece of the cake.

Quite a range of definitions. Take the first one, for example. That is pretty broad. Is a car with a leather interior a necessity? No. How about the second definition. That one is odd I think because there are many items that are "excessively expensive" but are not luxuries. How much does a college education cost these days? Excessively expensive many will say--but also not a luxury in today's world. How much is a heart transplant operation? Pretty darn expensive--but a necessity for the patient with a failing heart.

So there's definitions of "luxury" to support both sides of the discussion here--those who say the Genesis and Equus aren't luxury cars because they aren't exclusive enough, or expensive enough; and those who think of them as luxury cars because of what they have above and beyond "ordinary" cars.

sweendogy

Avalon owner, holy cow how do you make a comment about the equus or genesis. Same situation, camry avalon, sonada genesis.. except you could prob pick up the latter two at a better deal, better warrantee and better cars and they dont have a little accelerator issue. Your comments about americans not saving money and cost to own are also suspect (see past posts).

tjc78

I'm curious as to the number of buyers that would include either "exclusivity" or "snob factor" as criteria in deciding which cars are to be considered luxury cars.

IMO Plenty. Take a Lexus ES350 or a BMW 3 series against a Genesis and the majoirty of the buying public (NON-car guys) and they will equate the L and BMW with being luxury items and the Hyundai as just a nice sedan. At the same price many will buy the other two just because they have the name. Last I checked both blow away the Genesis in sales.

If you saw two TVs one a Sony the other from XYZ TV Co and even though the XYZ had better specs, better warranty and was a similar price which one do you think most people will buy?

IMO people in this country are brand conscious. Hyundai hasn't developed enough yet to have the prestige a true luxury brand has, despite offering very nice, reliable cars.

tjc78

Avalon owner, holy cow how do you make a comment about the equus or genesis.

I've owned an 06 Avalon and now the 09 Genesis. The Avalon is every bit the car the Genesis is.

and they dont have a little accelerator issue

In 14k miles I have already had more nagging issues with my Genesis than I had with my Avalon in 36K miles.

toye

And at nearly 2 years and 28k with my Genesis only a couple of issues that were promptly taken care by the dealership.

tjc78

I have had the following:

Replace both interior "B" pillars due to material fraying away

Steering wheel limit switches

Power passenger seat needed to be taken apart and lubed and a part put back that spit out from under the seat

Passenger side sun visor light doesn't work (new part on order).

I still have a dry startup noise that the dealer claims is normal. It has gotten worse and if I wasn't leasing would be all over Hyundai to fix.

06 Avalon after 36K

Steering column intermediate shaft replacement due to a clicking noise when turning. I turned mine in before the whole pedal recall fiasco, so count that if you want.

captain2

So there's definitions of "luxury" to support both sides of the discussion here--those who say the Genesis and Equus aren't luxury cars because they aren't exclusive enough, or expensive enough; and those who think of them as luxury cars because of what they have above and beyond "ordinary" cars.
exclusive enough, expensive enough, AND FTM not sold at the right place and with an appropriate brandname. My own opinion is that exclusivity is largely determined by price and neither is necessarily qualifying for what is 'luxury'. The Equus at $60k (or whatever) is certainly expensive enough and will certainly not sell in terribly high numbers - but if it is not accepted into that oft mysterious legions of luxury cars it may be only because of its swoopy 'H' and where you go to buy it - just like that VW a few years back and despite Krafcik's 'explanations' and rationalizations.The Equus will be an interesting test of this whole theory, Hyundai is getting a lot closer to what helped the otherwise outstanding Phaeton fail.
Hyundai is not a 'luxury' brand despite a demonstrated abiliity to manufacture quite luxurious vehicles - and won't be (IMO) as long as they continue to have that presence in the lowest tiers of the market and sell at those dealers that cater to the same - just like several other mfgrs in this same category. Which to me is a bigger obstacle in the way of them 'finding room' than any price tag could be.....

PS Nice to see you, in particular, acknowledge that there is a defendable side to this whole 'argument' - even if you don't agree with it. BTW

captain2

deciding which cars are to be considered luxury cars. They are certainly not on my list of qualifications.

as they need not necessarily be - especially if you subscribe to to theory that a 'luxury' car is really nothing more than some assemblage of baubles and beads.

But, ask yourself this then
- what is it that really gets folks to spend $60 or $70k on a LS, and something probably more than that on a 'similar' German sedan?? Are there engineering and materials premiums - sure - but is it something that reasonably justifies that kind of cost difference? Or is it also a bit of the 'snob factor' that is attached to vehicles of that type - aka luxury cars. Or both?

scottphillip

Luxury is cenrtainly a matter of personal priorities. For me, I not only value fine appointments, current electronics, and reliability. I see little difference between a Lexus and a Benz. I think Lexus has earned its reputation. Hyundai has a ways to go.

captain2

I think Lexus has earned its reputation. Hyundai has a ways to go.
hell, Lexus had that reputation BEFORE the first one was ever sold! And ditto for Acura. Fortunately for Toyota and Honda the products lived up to those expectations. And the rest, as they say, is history....
Can we say the same for Hyundai today? Is that reputation even close?

toye

Sorry about all that... mine was the trunk was slightly off and caused a minor blemish in the paint on top of the bumper. Back camera had to be replaced as once in a blue moon it would go blank. Other than normal maintenance the Genesis has been worry free.

tjc78

Other than normal maintenance the Genesis has been worry free.

Hopefully once the sun visor is fixed all will be fine. Its a bunch of little things, I know it could certainly be worse. On the Genesis owners website, there is a fair amount owners having trouble with the tech package audio amp. I wouldn't be happy at all.

anythngbutgm

Outsold the Ford Fusion and the Chevy Rentibu this month...

Sonata: 21399
Fusion: 17082
Rentibu: 18182

:shades:

toye

Rentibu....cute what was the % to rental fleets?

toye

No problems with the tech package other than the camera..The biggest issue on the Genesis site that had been blogged to death was the suspension and I never felt that as ever an issue on mine.

captain2

you know the sad part of this is that the Malibu was supposed to finally be the J3 fighter that was going to 'save GM'.The Mexican Fusion does a better job at that and the fact that the Sonata is even in Camcordima territory says a lot.

fintail

From what I see in my region, might as well call the Sonata the Rentata as well...

captain2

I believe it ot be true that the Sonatas that are currently overpopulating the rental lots are the old versions - not the 2011s - not that the value of Sonatas in general won't be effected when all those rental queens hit the market

toye

You mean Rentnata :P

fintail

Tons of 2011 Sonata rentals in my area, sometimes it seems like half of them I see have a barcode and no plate frame. It was similar with the old one...heck, at the end of that run, there were even loaded moonroof/leather models in the fleet.

Rentnata it is :shades:

tjc78

I never felt that as ever an issue on mine

I am not a fan of the suspension. However, I always have said that is more my preferences than any fault of the car. Mine is a very early 09 and has the original suspension not the revised. I recently had a 10 V8 loaner and it still had the same ride characteristics, except the rear seemed to have a bit less bounce than mine.

sweendogy

sorry the avalon recall was steering related, so not that bad...

avalon is every bit a car the genesis is?? for 32k grand please expand -- 2 me one has rwd and has a V8 option. the other has a v6 only fwd platform. Geni is larger and is not on a camry platform....

i'm sorry your having nagging issues but I would bet if you got your Avalon when they started making it, year one, you prob would have similar issues.

For the money you cant say the geni is not better then the fwd grandfather avy

backy

Hyundai is not a 'luxury' brand despite a demonstrated abiliity to manufacture quite luxurious vehicles.

Agreed. Hyundai is not a luxury brand. Hyundai is a brand that includes a broad range of vehicles (not as broad as some here would like maybe). Some of them compete in the luxury market. Kinda like Toyota, also Nissan. As those companies have found, buyers are willing to pay $35k, $40k, $50k, even more than $60k for luxurious vehicles under a non-luxury brand name. Yet they sell $12k Yarii and $10k Versas in the same dealerships. If they can do it, why not Hyundai? What is your answer (rationalization?) to that question?

BTW, by your own definition, the Equus will be more a "luxury" car than the likes of an E Class or 5 Series. And keep in mind... they will not be sold in Hyundai dealerships.

backy

If you saw two TVs one a Sony the other from XYZ TV Co and even though the XYZ had better specs, better warranty and was a similar price which one do you think most people will buy?

Easy. I have already made that decision, 3 years ago and also 6 months ago. Bought XYZ. Consider: XYZ TV was considerably bigger than the comparably priced Sony. Both companies had solid reputations for reliability, but XYZ had the longer warranty. Picture-wise, no discernible difference.

But I know there are those who won't think of looking at anything other than a Sony. That's their business... and their money.

Some people in this country are brand conscious... not all. If you were really brand conscious, you would have never stepped foot in a Hyundai dealership, let alone buy a Genesis. You are a contradiction to your own argument. Hyundai will build its base in the luxury market and below with people who are not brand conscious. With annual Hyundai/Kia purchases in the US approaching 1 million, that is a not of non-brand conscious buyers--a lot of room for Hyundai to work in selling luxury vehicles.

smarty666

yeah but you can't get the V8 at 32k can u? no u can't so why compare a Avalon equipped at that price to a V8 Genesis which I believe starts at around 38 or 39k if I'm not mistaken?

the only difference at that price is you have RWD with the V6 in the Genesis vs a FWD with the V6 in the Avalon. Personally, at least up here in the Northeast, you don't want to be caught with just RWD when the snow starts coming down! That is why I don't get RWD unless it has a AWD option. I've been in snow with RWD and let me tell you its not fun in the slightest. Here is hoping Hyundai gets AWD into the Genesis soon! That was another reason I had to exclude the Genesis when I was looking at the 2009 at the time, was its lack of AWD option.

The Avalon is pretty well equipped to the Genesis in its V6 version and similar price points. The Genesis just carries it further, with higher cost of course, and gives you a V8 option, where the Avalon does not, nor does it need to though since its new body isn't selling that well to begin with. But at the same price point they are pretty similar equipped, only difference is RWD vs FWD.

fintail

IMO luxobuyers are a lot more brand conscious than toastercar buyers.

What's this about Equus not sold in H dealerships? No new buildings are being built...the ability to have a demo sent to your house to examine and buy in regions where such commerce is legal doesn't mean they won't be sold in H dealerships.

backy

Hyundai plans to start selling its Equus full-size luxury sedan about Nov. 1 with a promise that, both before and after the purchase, you may never need to go to the dealership.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/08/buy-your-hyundai-eq- uus-at-home----and-never-visit-a-dealer/1

If you didn't notice the in my post, that was to reflect that not all Equii may be sold without a dealership... but many will. So much for the issue that Hyundai dealerships are not worthy to sell luxury cars... don't need 'em!

sweendogy

smarty your back.. this is not an acura... the Big H and other lux cars give a V8 as an option-- as i mentioned--its an option.(you have to pay more, yes. plus its a Bigger sedan.. If/when they offer (and all indications they will) an AWD option this makes this a car a better all around choice... plus its not a camry that has 5k (or more) with no real advantages. These 2 cars have one thing in common Price - thats about it.. dont compare rwd (with a V8 option) with a V6.. because if you do that I will once again compare the TL to the ES -- both fwd both are camry accord == talk about snow all you want-- it snowed 4 times last year in boston and if it were really a concern you would go SUV or go with some good snow tires

here you go smarty=this is what the experts are saying vs the avy and others..

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q4/2009_hyundai_genesis_4.6-road_test/- - how_does_the_genesis_4.6_stack_up_3f_page_3

in conclusion you are mistaken..

fintail

Ah yeah that's right...emoticons aren't working consistently...or I am blind :shades:

smarty666

first of all, nobody brought Acura up again but you so you must have some sort of fetish or fascination with them, not sure which one :P

you were the one who made the following statement

avalon is every bit a car the genesis is?? for 32k grand please expand -- 2 me one has rwd and has a V8 option. the other has a v6 only fwd platform. Geni is larger and is not on a camry platform....

I was making the point that AT THE SAME PRICE POINT (32k, which was the number YOU gave) the Avalon is every bit of car the Genesis is; only difference, one is RWD while the other FWD. So what if it has a V8 option, you can't get that at 32k so if you were cross shopping the Genesis with a Avalon, that would not even come into a factor.

your wrong as usual and now are trying to say that I was comparing RWD/V8 to FWD/V6 when you are the one who did it in the first place

at 32k you have a RWD/V6 that is compared and cross shopped to a FWD/V6. There is no difference in engine at that price. With RWD, the Genesis will have the handling edge in dry weather, but come winter and snow, forget the RWD, you'll be all over the place. By the way, I should know since I have a RWD/AWD cross-over and I've thank the Lord for that AWD during several winter storms over the years.

Avalon 58.5H/72.8W/197.6L
Genesis 58.1H/74.4W/195.9L

Oh, and by the way, here is the sizes of each car above. You were wrong that the Genesis is a bigger car than the Avalon. Actually they are just about the same size. One is 1 and a half inches wider while the other is 1 and a half inches longer. Next time do some research!

I do have to admit, if I only had a choice between the Genesis and Avalon I'd choose the Genesis since its so much better looking and handles better in most conditions.

tjc78

For the money you cant say the geni is not better then the fwd grandfather avy

I have owned both and I think I certainly can. The Avalon is every bit as refined, has a MUCH smoother ride, and so far has been more reliable. If you compare V6s Toyota's 2GR is much more refined than Hyundai's 3.8. The Genesis obviously handles better and does have better interior materials. The Genesis is not the second coming of the BMW 5 series. Sorry, everyone... its not. It is on par with similarly priced vehicles such as Avalon, LaCrosse, Taurus, & Maxima. I have driven them all (except new LaCrosse) and that is how I feel.

sorry the avalon recall was steering related, so not that bad...

Absolutely WRONG! There was a TSB issued for 05/06 Avalons to have the intermediate shaft replaced if the wheel had a click when turning. I drove it that way for a few months before even having it looked at.

Geni is larger and is not on a camry platform....


You obviously never sat in an Avalon, its a bigger car than the Genesis. Yes the Avalon is on a stretched version of the basic Camry platform. However, the 05 Avalon redesign was the first vehicle from Toyota with the revised platform and 2 GR V6. All other newer Yotas (07+ Camry, Highlander, ES350) use the updated platform introduced in 05.

tjc78

You are a contradiction to your own argument.

So what? Just because I observe what I believe the majority of the buying publc will say doesn't mean I have to conform. I am generally not brand conscious, and don't care whats on the back of my car as long as I am happy with it. The Genesis offers a lot for the money and although I am not thrilled with mine I don't put it down because its a Hyundai. If I was in the same boat in a Lexus, Toyota etc I would say the same things.

Until the Genesis outsells a similar price luxury sedan I think my argument holds up pretty well.

lemko

I don't know why everybody is down on the Malibu. It appears to be quite a nice car. Heck, even the fake wood looks quite nice on it.